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September 30th, 2010
02:16 PM ET
Indian court splits holy site in threeA disputed holy site in India will be divided in an attempt to satisfy competing religious claims to the site, the Allahabad High Court ruled Thursday. Muslims, Hindus and a local sect will all get part of the land at Ayodhya, the three-judge panel said. Muslims have already said they will appeal to the Supreme Court. Thousands of people have died in sectarian violence in India since Hindu extremists razed a Muslim mosque on the site in 1992. Many Hindus believe the site is the birthplace of one of their most revered deities.
Next entry »Muslims speak - and sing - for themselves
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I am assuming you provide those 50 + references, denying Jesus – what if you spent your time productively in the other direction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpDNqfjmu4&feature=related
A reminder:
The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded "waiting for moderation" category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words. For example, "t-it" is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution. Then there words like "an-al" thereby flagging words like an-alysis and "c-um" flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument. And then there is "a-pe" and "gra-pe. You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not. To be safe, I typically add hyphens in any word that said filter might judge "of-fensive".
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Thank you CNN. I notice my request is now waiting moderation but that's cool. 🙂
There are so many positive stories of Faith from so many CNN and this is a great place to show them all off. What some on the other side do not understand is that it is not the pastor, rabbi or Iman that we truly follow but someone, something higher.
Peace yall'
'Awaiting moderation' means that your comment has been blocked and won't be posted.
I know but the post was a sorta message to CNN and it originally went up and then was "moderation'd". I see that maybe the message was recieved and I was now just thanking CNN blog article writers.
In my view it is us who created god. Why can't we understand this. It is some lazy people who threatened the innocent when there were thunderstorms saying that god is angry with us in stone age as they were lazy to hunt for food. And these lazy depend on innocent for their continuously threating the innocent saying god is angry with you.
The "skinny" on today's major religions"- for new members only
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment.
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan se-cts.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizz-azz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "fil-icider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedo-ph-iliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adu-lterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system, monkey gods, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
Current crises:
The caste system and cow worship/reverence.
6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.
Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!
Why do you keep saying "for new members only"?
Frank,
Because the comment is a reiteration seen previously by "old" commentators i.e. skip the comments if you have seen and absorbed these comments before.
@Reality
How come when the NY times post an article you re-post it as fact. When it is the opinion of people disconnected from the actual event they are referring to... but you refuse to look at the news article that Luke posted in the gospel of Luke, Mark in the gospel of Mark and Paul in acts(written by luke) and Corithians when they say basicly hey don't belive us ask the people and kings that were there.
Do you think its an honest examination if you just find people that agree with your assumption in the first place?
also again I plead with you not to be a liar and mislead people in your lies
Jesus was not illiterate
Matthew 7:28-29
Matthew 21:42
Mark 1:21-22
Luke 2:46-47 (what were you doing at 12?)
Luke 4:17-20
Mike,
Note the names of the contemporary NT exegetes noted above. It is recommended that you review their analyses of the historic Jesus as found in their many books on the subject.
With respect to the "NT" thu-mpers" you cited, see http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=Crossan_Inventory as an example of said an-alyses. Remove the hyphen in "php?ti-tile" before you do.
e.g. Luke 2: 46-47 – Jesus at 12,
Professor John Dominic Crossan
Item: 433
Stratum: III (80-120 CE)
Attestation: Single passage found no where else in the scriptural or non-scriptural docu-ments.
Historicity: not historical but a myth added by Luke to enhance the biography of Jesus
@Reality, again and again I plead with you to stay away from the fraud, as you mention above. crossan
The arguement that it is only mention by luke makes a weak arguement that it Must me a myth.
Scholars and secular people on Crossan (since we are using wikipedia)
Luke Timothy Johnson[28] of the Candler School of Theology at Emory University, in his 1996 book The Real Jesus, voiced concerns with the seminar's work. He criticized the techniques of the Seminar, believing them to be far more limited for historical reconstruction than seminar members believe. Their conclusions were "already determined ahead of time," Johnson says, which "is not responsible, or even critical scholarship. It is a self-indulgent charade."
Dale Allison of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, in his 1999 book Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet, cited what he felt were problems with the work of (particularly) John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg, arguing that their conclusions were at least in part predetermined by their theological positions. He also pointed out the limitations of their presumptions and methodology. Allison argued that despite the conclusions of the seminar, Jesus was a prophetic figure focused to a large extent on apocalyptic thinking.[13]
Daniel L. Akin, writing in the Journal of the Southern Baptist Convention, called the work of the Jesus Seminar "destructive criticism".[29] Craig Blomberg notes that if the Jesus Seminar’s findings are to be believed then “it requires the assumption that someone, about a generation removed from the events in question, radically transformed the authentic information about Jesus that was circulating at that time, superimposed a body of material four times as large, fabricated almost entirely out of whole cloth, while the church suffered sufficient collective amnesia to accept the transformation as legitimate.”
John P. Meier points out that in the past the quest for the historical Jesus has often been motivated more by a desire to produce an alternate christology than a true historical search; as an example, he points out that the stated motivation of one of the Jesus Seminar members was to overthrow the "mistake called Christianity."[20]
Scholars who have expressed concerns with the work of the Jesus Seminar include Richard Hays,[14] Birger A. Pearson,[15] Ben Witherington,[16] Gregory A. Boyd,[17] N.T. Wright,[18] William Lane Craig,[19] Craig A. Evans,[20] Craig Blomberg,[12] Darrell Bock,[12] and Edwin Yamauchi.[12
The Seminar places much value on the criterion of dissimilarity. For the Seminar, a saying will only be held as authentic if it does not match the beliefs of Judaism or those held by the early Christians.[22] Critics such as Gregory Boyd have noted that the effect of this is that the Jesus of the Seminar shows no continuity with his Jewish context nor his disciples.[23] J. Ed Komoszewski and co-authors state that the Jesus Seminar's "Criteria for In/Authenticity" create "an eccentric Jesus who learned nothing from his own culture and made no impact on his followers".[24] Others ask rhetorically, "why would such a Jesus be crucified?"[25] The same criticism has been made by Craig Evans.[20]
The voting system has been criticized by, among others, NT Wright, who says '... I cannot understand how, if a majority ... thought a saying authentic or probably authentic, the "weighted average" turned out to be "probably inauthentic
@Reality also luke rights his gospel between 37-41 while it is still believed that Mary is still alive until 45. So how does he get away making the parents irresponsible and it never gets challenged? Why write something false about someone when the subject is still alive?
err i mean writes.
Mike,
Wikipedia is only a back-up source of information. I believe most of the exegetes you mentioned are also
l listed on the web page I have noted many times i.e. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html . You will have to either buy these books or borrow them from a library and then peruse them to determine the validity of the findings. There are a number of excellent web sites with comparable information.
I list some here:
1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm - the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
- a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
- "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html
14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/
19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/
22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus,
Can't we all just get along?
Frank,
In one breath you call Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris "morons"; and in the very next breath you want to get along? What? We can all get along if we do it *your* way?
Maybe that was a bit mean of me. I should say that their writings on religion are moronic.
@Frank
I am (sincerely) curious as to which writings by any of those 3 men are talking about that ...."their writings about religion are moronic".....
Please.... enlighten us.. I am open and curious....
Peace...
Religions dissected:
Only for new members:
Recognizing the flaws, follies and frauds in the foundations of Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity by the "bowers", kneelers" and "pew peasants" will quickly converge these religions into some simple rules of life. No koran, bible, clerics, nuns, monks, imams, evangelicals, ayatollahs, rabbis, professors of religion or priests needed or desired. Ditto for houses and classes of "worthless worship" aka mosques, churches, basilicas, cathedrals, temples and synagogues.
Just when I think you make sense you go and make me change my mind….
I am very sorry for your state of mind may who ever you belive in help you!
What flaws, follies? As for frauds they are a dime a dozen.
@Mike
I agree. It seems like Reality likes to copy and paste the same message everywhere. But random, opinionated tangents really aren't helpful for those who are trying to understand his stance. So, Reality, fill us in on why you are so bitter towards religion with some of your personal understanding/knowledge/experience. We may be able to have some legitimate dialogue afterward.
Please... stop the fighting.. in the 'name' of religious holy sites and religion....
Peace...
well said, islamic terr orist, well said.
@Ahmad Hosein
What the F***???
I am calling for peace...
Peace...
It appears that the beautiful children of more than 3 religions are participating in a gathering, very peacefully. Why can’t adults learn from their children on how to ‘love thy neighbor’?
Before waxing rhapsodic about children, remember that they believe what their parents tell them.
Adults were undoubtedly behind this event - a GOOD thing in this case!
Real_Deal,
Well, then, hooray for the adults, too!
Yep, Religion Poisons Everything. – C. Hitchens
David Johnson,
Will anyone know who C. Hitchens is in 2000 years?
Nope. Because he's a moron. Same goes for Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.
Nope, because some Hit ler or Hitchens or Dawkins will have rationalized and blown up this planet to smithereens long before 2000 years have passed.
@Ahmad Hosein
Your comment on this is based on what....? No reason or rationality to your comment....
Think before speaking... Please....
Peace...
@Frank
You said..."They are all morons... Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris..." Really.... morons..? They may be called many things, and you have the right to believe or not their assertions......
but ....morons....? Please.... Show's your truly..... pure 'evangelical christian fundamentalism'.... which is based on what ....faith....? No evidence....
Versus people who actually know what they are talking about....i.e... Harris..(boy, I'll bet those books of his to you 'christian fundies' really 'stung' as it was all true)... Dawkins.. and Hitchens.
Peace...
It doesn't really matter if anyone knows Christopher Hitchens in 2000 years. There have been plenty of critics of religion for the past 2000 years, and there will be plenty more for the next 2000 years. Though I don't have much hope for humans existing in 2000 years with the way religious followers keep finding excuses to kill one another.
Peace2all:
You would do yourself a favor by not bothering to type anymore. You are one of the biggest trolls on this blog. Anyone who you disagree with, you call a 'evangelical christian fundamentalist'. Get a bigger vocabulary, a brain and a different name. Better yet, just go away.
Have a blessed day. ~
@Frank
You are correct... I and my other friends.. David Johnson, NL, Luke, Frogist, HotAirAce... and others are some of the more prolific posters on this blog. As for my moniker... I can still debate and vehemently disagree with you and your ridiculous postings and still wish you peace... They are not mutually exclusive...correct..?
After reading a number of your responses, you seem to be 'fairly new' to the CNN Belief Blogs... and from your posts, I can tell that you seem to be an 'amateur' at debate and blogging in general since that is usually what someone try's to do is call one a troll when they have no response. And they know they have been 'checkmated.' metaphorically speaking.
Plus, after reading the few posts recently of yours on this and the few other articles you have posted on, you don't seem to be able to debate.. Hence, just calling Harris, Hitchen's etc... morons.. I want to 'thank you' for proving my point and assessment about you. No knowledge....just emotional rhetoric.... so you relate to personal attacks. On them... and now it seems me.
And who exactly is the 'troll'...? Seems like you @FRANK....
I have been posting on these blogs with my friends since almost the beginning.
You still didn't actually answer my question as to 'how' exactly you can call they (Harris, Hitchen's etc..) and their writings 'morons' or 'moronic.' Way to 'deflect' .....and keep yourself from actually making an intelligent response.
Would still love to hear you make 'some' kind of cogent and rational arguement... Someone might actually pay attention and listen to you...!
We can stick to the issues... and debate, and possibly learn from each other.... or you can, when you have no rational or thoughtful response, you can just try to dismiss and name call.... Show's your 'true colors' ...eh...?
Personally, I would rather debate issues and learn from each other... knowing that sometimes we may or more often than not, disagree.. but you never know... we may agree on some things.. But, that is just my personal preference. But, again, we can handle this any way you like...the choice is yours..
If you want to relate to personal attacks... perfect... If you want to debate and learn.... much, much, much better... don't ya' think.. Frank...?
And FYI.... It wasn't exactly a big leap of intellect and investigation to see that you are a 'Christian, and pretty hard-core fundie at that... Just look at you and Keith going back and forth about the book of revelations, the bible and Jesus told me and others that.
That's why David Johnson, Myself and others.....look forward to solid rational debates with you fundies....got it..?
Peace...
peace2all,
Nice job parrying with Frank.
Just a little tip: Frank has said that he is a Catholic - they don't consider themselves to be "Christians" in the way that the term is commonly used. They think that they are far superior to the "Christians", whom they consider to be break-away sects from their "true" religion. That's why the term "evangelical Christian fundamentalist" rankles him. But then, I'm not sure that the term "Catholic dogmatist" would make him happy either. Good luck.