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October 15th, 2010
09:03 PM ET
Texas Billboard: Christians are 'jerks'More from Gabe Lyons here. |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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P.S. What if HELL does not actually exist???
So, every so often, you'll see christians such as these billboarders who at least admit they're jerks – but who also assume that somehow they can improve and attain that new testament standard no others have yet. They refuse to admit the obvious – they can't attain it because it's merely a fable, as 2000 years of failed christianity demonstrates.
Commentary written by Joe Santucci
JOe Santucci has never expierienced the Holy Spirit in his life. So, thats probably why he can write that it is a fable.
Sad.
P.S. What if HELL does not actually exist???
So what if it don't? Wouldn't change anything for most Christians,They would still believe as they do, and still love God. Its not conditional on wether hell exists or not.
But you have to ask, what if Hell does exist? The believer wouldn't be headed there anyway. Only the ones who did not believe there was a Hell would most likely be the ones to be in for a shocker!
What's saddest, to me anyway, is that even the many Christians who might admit privately what this group admits publickly won't admit WHY christians are "jerks" and WHY "the church has failed and christians are not like the Christ characterized in the new testament".
For christianity to "worK" would require what the new testament claims will happen when an individual commits to jesus - that person will then be supernaturally empowered by god with "the holy spirit". The holy spirit will enable that person to practice a life of morality, love, compassion, integrity, self-sacrifice, and self-denial that the non-christian is incapable of living.
Well, it's a wonderful claim. But, as history bears out and as our twenty years in bible-literalist christianity proved, NO ONE has ever manifested anything close to such a persona. Including ourselves, we never witnessed a single person evidencing such a holy spirit empowerment in his or her character and daily life. Professed christians are often fine people - but, never are even the best of them any more "christ-like" than some atheists, agnostics, hindus, or muslims whom we've met. No christian exhibits anything evidencing that claimed "holy spirit empowerment' which should be happening.
Throughout history not a single person has manifested that empowering from Christ; consequently, "christians are jerks and the church has failed". So, any open-minded person (such as Sally and I have always tried to be) should ask, " WHY ?" The obvious answer is, "Since no one has been empowered by the Holy Spirit, then it doesn't happen - meaning, the new testament must not be true." But, most christians recoil from any such conclusion; it kinda upsets one's life to admit to having been so wrong for so long. More, it means demolishing one's life-foundation of hope, direction, protection,and moral certainties. It's too frightening and outright black for almost every person we've ever met to accept that there may not be some divine being, force, or energy behind the universe who/which orchestrates and gives purpose to one's existence and to one's afterlife. So, every so often, you'll see christians such as these billboarders who at least admit they're jerks - but who also assume that somehow they can improve and attain that new testament standard no others have yet. They refuse to admit the obvious - they can't attain it because it's merely a fable, as 2000 years of failed christianity demonstrates.
Commentary written by Joe Santucci
Last Post Part Five
You said:
Yes, there are some ecclesial communities that love the Lord but they are far more popular than the Catholic Church because they do not persist in trying to get their people to participate in keeping the 10 Commandments or in receiving the Sacraments…which give strength against sin…people just want to go off and live their lives and not think about such things….it takes away from their personal fun time …football, sleeping in, you name it… what do they need grace for?…the few little sins they might do…well, Jesus has already died on the Cross and so they are saved…why do they need more grace to combat evil with? So are those communities persecuted…hardly.
You said:
Yes, there are some ecclesial communities that love the Lord but they are far more popular than the Catholic Church because they do not persist in trying to get their people to participate in keeping the 10 Commandments or in receiving the Sacraments…which give strength against sin…people just want to go off and live their lives and not think about such things….it takes away from their personal fun time …football, sleeping in, you name it… what do they need grace for?…
My Comment:
I totally and 100 percent disagree with this. Is this even a fair statement CatholicMom? Is this a judgement, or just an opinion pf yours? Can you prove that every other church across America, or in any other part of the world, fits in that category?
My son and his wife are very involved in the work of thier church, feeding the hungry, helping the poor, teaching classes, and a host of other things, They are at church more then they are home! They have sacr-am-ents, and and keep the 10 commandments. I am using them as an example, because I can truly say I know this for a fact.
This is one of those things you say, that has you come across in a very negative way.
Would Jesus say lets forget about "those other" people, what do they need grace for? They are this way or that way? Of course not! That hardly sounds like LOVE to me!
In c-o-nclusion, you said:
the few little sins they might do…well, Jesus has already died on the Cross and so they are saved…why do they need more grace to combat evil with? So are those c-o-m-munities persecuted…hardly.
Yes, they are persecuted CatholicMom, because they too are Gods children! I don't get the part of "Jesus died on the cross, they are saved, as you say. , why do they need more grace to combat evil with?
Why would you even make a statement like that? Again, hardly sounds like Love to me.
I thank you, Laura, for sticking with this to the end. I mean you no harm.
You are welcomed, CatholicMom
You have not harmed me at all.
I think though that you did some harm to yourself, in that last paragraph about all churches outside of the RCC. Mayby you can pray and ask the Lord to help you with that....Goodnight! It has been nice talking to you.
Part Four
You Said:
Thank you for not accus-ing me anymore of saying that I have said ‘someone is condemned to hell’ because you do not want to spread lies, I am sure. I know I am not perfect and can be incorrect in my spelling or phrasing and sentence structure but, condemning someone to hell would have to be a late night total error where I must have left out the word NOT as in ‘someone is NOT condemned to hell’ by me. I think that sometimes when people accuse another of saying something like that, that maybe they just think they are being condemned or feel like they are going to hell…and blame the writer for their feelings….
My Comment> I think what you are referring to is this comment I made under my post up above?
(used your post (sorry too) to explain why I get fustrated sometimes, when things are said that come off smacking of arrogance, to where everybody outside the Catholic Church is . in your eyes, c-o-n-d-e-mned to hell. Not everybody believes as you do)
No need to thank me for not accusing you of condeming someone to hell..and of course I don't want to spread lies. Why would you think I would even do such a thing? I too am not perfect as you say you aren't. I was simply trying to put across the thought that your church does teach that all outside of the RCC, will go to hell, and that it is your belief because of the fact you are a Catholic, who abides by the teachings of your church. I started the next sentence by picking up on the prior thought, to express better what I was trying to get across. So, I am sorry if I offended you.
You said:
I think that sometimes when people ac-cuse another of saying something like that, that maybe they just think they are being co-ndemned or feel like they are going to h-e-l-l…and blame the writer for their feelings….
If that was nicely directed towards me, I can as-sure you I have no fear of going to h-e–ll, nor do I feel c-o-ndemned by anything or any words you have spoken, nor by anything that the Catholic Church says. My relationship with God is very secure. Nothing or nobody will ever change that. That is based on his promise to me as his child.
Part Three
You said:
So be glad these are not true statements that you sent from one of your sources and as you said, know that this is one of the ways that the Church is persecuted
My comment to this>Please note that it WAS TRUE, its just that the text was left unchecked for hundreds of years by the Catholic Church, and most recently it was brought to thier attention. That is probably why its still floating out there.
I do appreciate that we have both discovered something here, and do thank you for bringing that one issue to light. If I were you, you might do well to not=ify other websites that are posting this, by leaving a c-o-mment.
PART TWO
http://catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html
It says:
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the eccle=sia=stical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed b-l-o-o-d for the name of C-h-r-i-s-t, can be saved, unless he has remained in the b=o=s=o=m and unity of the Catholic Church.
.
As is said, I do not believe that, its not true. Jesus calls all people to himself. This is why again I believe that Jesus did not call Peter the rock that he would build his church on (and reference the Catholic Church persay). People can still come to Jesus, be saved, be baptised, walk in his way, do good works thru the grace of God, and go to heaven...because thats what the "universal" church is. Jesus made promises that what the Father has given him, no one will s-n-a-t-c-h out of his hand. He said nothing would seperate him from them, or vice versa. That means what it says. That enc-o-mpasses all people, not just ones who walk thru the doors of a brick building that calls itself the RCC.
Well, I guess we will never agree on this one.
Hi CatholicMom
Sorry I am so late getting to this post, had to work a little longer then usual. Anyway, I checked that Extrava-gantes of Zenzelius de Cass=anis myself, and saw that it did exist, but apparently they weren't aware of it for quite a longtime, as to the wording. It was actually brought to thier attention by someone, and this was the response back:
Va=tican Library, Reference Service. “Re: Fwd: Verifying Information.” E-mail to Marno Retief. 2 June 2004.
‘It is, of course, a huge mistake. With much pain and time we found the passage you are quoting in the orig=inal manuscripts (Vat-ica=nus latin=us 2583, f. 258 v; Vat. lat. 1404, f. 22 r, both from 14th century), and in both it is clearly said “Do-minum no=strum Pa-pam”. The wrong formulation, “Do=minum Deum no=strum Pa-pam”, we found in an edition of the end of the 16th century, but these old editions cannot be philologically trusted. The original manuscripts have the correct version, and there is no word “Deum” in that sentence.’
I wonder how long that error was on the books? Wow! The post was dated 2004!
Here is the website
http://seanhyland.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/the-truth-about-the-anti-catholic-charge-of-lord-god-the-pope They seem to think it was a forgery? That is posted on quite a few websites, alot that I saw. Thing is, you kinda take it for granted,now I am gone to be more viligilant about those latin things, now that I know this, check them out.
Thing is that went unnoticed for many years., having been pub=lished in 1582, indeed a long time.
I did make sure I checked out the other one, and it does exist and is true.
In 1302 Pope Bo=niface said this in a letter to the Catholic Church:
Furthermore, we declare, we pro-claim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for sal-vation that every hu-man creature be subject to the Roman Po-ntiff.xii
This moderated twice, it is longish and I have spent one hour here trying to proofread this so it will take. I will make another couple attempts, then I am gone to have to stop, as its getting late. Call this Part One.
CatholicMom..I will post back this afternoon or evening as time permits.
@Iceman
Your welcomed! 🙂
Oh, and just for the record, there is another Laura that posts on these threads.I have seen it myself. Not sure if that was me you were referring to, not that it matters. I think from now on, I will post under a different name.
@ Laura. Thanks
LAST PART
It is a strange thing, these people who claim to love the Word are willing to twist the Bible to try to discredit the Catholic Church because of their hatred for the Church, and yet they received the Bible from the Catholic Church! It is absolutely beyond comprehension as to how this came about and it is something I wonder about
*If you read the history of the Catholic Church, all of it, then I think you would understand a lit-tle better why alot of people feel as they do about the CC. Mayby that is where the hatred of it c-o-m-es from, if it is hatred as you say. Alot of things the bible forbids Christians to do, is done in the CC. If you read, I think you will see without any prompting from me, on what those things are.
…all these ecclesial c-o-.mmunities as you stated….however one does have to call to mind that Jesus Christ did say that his Church will be persecuted….so be it…
* Yes, and I agree. Christians are under perse-cution. Its just that again, not all believe the universal church to be catholic , but believe universal church to be all Christians, which the apostles were told to take the Gospel to. Whomever believed the Gospel that was presented, were known as Christians.
If you see the church as being the "one" (catholic) then all that broke away from the church, as it became corr-upted, are still christians. They just could not stay in the church that fell away from the true teachings of Jesus, and where the pope a-s-s-u-med the place of God himself.
In 1895 an article from the Catholic National said this:
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus C-h-r-i-st-, but he is Jesus C-h-r-is-t, Himself, hidden under the veil of fl-e-s-h.iii
and
The G-lo-ss of Extrava-gantes of Pope John XXII says this:
To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed he-re-tical
In 1302 Pope Boniface said this in a letter to the Catholic Church:
Furthermore, we declare, we pro-claim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for sal-vation that every hu-man creature be subject to the Roman Po-ntiff.xii
Pope P=ius V said this:
The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.xiii
Most people cannot accept that, as it is not true.
Laura,
I have taken the Extrava-gantes of Zenzelius de Cassanis and checked the doc-ument with records that the Vatican holds which are stated in the Catholic Encyclopedia under Papal Decretals. They have the ORIGINALS which do not contain such wording as ‘our Lord God the Pope’; and whether copies were duped, forged, or otherwise ‘fixed’ and circulated…needless to say…those are false remarks.
It is evil at its worst because it causes unsuspecting, questioning persons who would accept such things without checking sources other than the anti-Catholic sources and think it is true. Laura, I spent much time searching out this truth for you and I. You and I both have the resources to read the Bible and check other well known sources before believing the worst. It is always easier to believe the worst if you are so inclined to want it to be so…but Truth has a way of winning out as long as you do not have a harden heart.
So be glad these are not true statements that you sent from one of your sources and as you said, know that this is one of the ways that the Church is persecuted. Jesus said his Church would be persecuted so we should not be surprised at it…. I feel a heavy heart for Pope Benedict at times because so much is laid on his shoulders, so much hate is directed at him because he is the head of the Church, but I regain my composure when I remember and read in the Bible that Jesus Christ did say that He would send the Paraclete to be with the Apostles and their successors.
Yes, we are also commissioned to spread the word of God once we are Baptized and become members of Jesus Christ’s body [for we can do nothing good on our own] but we can falter and become weakened by sin even after Baptism. But Jesus did pray for Peter, that his faith would be strong, because he was to be the head of His Church and would have to be steadfast in Truth and uphold his brethren. The other Apostles accepted this commission without jealous-y or distrust.
Thank you for not accus-ing me anymore of saying that I have said ‘someone is condemned to hell’ because you do not want to spread lies, I am sure. I know I am not perfect and can be incorrect in my spelling or phrasing and sentence structure but, condemning someone to hell would have to be a late night total error where I must have left out the word NOT as in ‘someone is NOT condemned to hell’ by me. I think that sometimes when people accuse another of saying something like that, that maybe they just think they are being condemned or feel like they are going to hell…and blame the writer for their feelings….
As far as some Church Fathers not mentioning Peter as Pope in all their writings is an absurd reason to denounce the fact that he was the first Pope. Sometimes a Church Father may have written about the Holy Trinity or any number of topics and St. Peter wasn’t part of their thought for that writing….Do we always mention God in every one of our writings…does this mean that we are saying there is no God! Heaven forbid! The atheists on here even know better…I hope.
Laura, I have read the history of the Church. I have read the history of the world, too. I do not think that people hate the Catholic Church because of sins of people throughout the history of the Church…do we hate Germany because of the holocaust? No, it is a persecution because the Church is not of the world…if it were, the world would be happy with it…if it condoned every sin…or ignored it, how popular it would be…but know that the Catholic Church does not conform to man’s ways but remains faithful to God’s Way.
Yes, there are some ecclesial communities that love the Lord but they are far more popular than the Catholic Church because they do not persist in trying to get their people to participate in keeping the 10 Commandments or in receiving the Sacraments…which give strength against sin…people just want to go off and live their lives and not think about such things….it takes away from their personal fun time …football, sleeping in, you name it… what do they need grace for?…the few little sins they might do…well, Jesus has already died on the Cross and so they are saved…why do they need more grace to combat evil with? So are those communities persecuted…hardly.
I thank you, Laura, for sticking with this to the end. I mean you no harm.
You Said:
You are not judging anyone when you give an opinion on something just because it may not ‘match’ with what they are saying. If you wish to share what you think, they may be happy to hear what it is you have to say…even if it doesn’t match their idea exactly.
I can agree with that. Dep-e-nding on the way something is presented.
However, when we start telling the person how he may be "happier", if he tried another church, or something along those lines (after he just said he was happier not gone to any), then it bec-o-mes more then just not "matching" thier idea. At that point it may be percievied as pushing your agenda on them.
You said: (I will use * for my response to this)
If you believe the words of the Bible, the Word should carry more weight with you, Laura, than people who are trying to discredit it!
* It does, and I think I covered that above, so on to the next.
I will have to post in parts. this moderated.
CatholicMom
Hi, Laura,
Since you copied and pasted and sent my posts [written to others] to whomever you wished, I didn’t think you would feel wronged by my answering one you sent to NL. Sorry. You are the first person to complain when someone makes a comment even though it wasn’t addressed to them that I have seen. I am sorry if I broke some blogging rule…
Of course I don't, as far as I know there is no rule against it. I don't know where I did c-o-mplain about someone making a c-o-mment even though it wasn't addressed to them. But if you say I did, I will take your word for it. If I did I am sure there was a reason why, as it is not usually something that I would address.
I used your post (sorry too) to explain why I get fustrated sometimes, when things are said that c-o-me off sm-acking of arrogance, to where everybody outside the Catholic Church is . in your eyes, c-o-n-d-e-mned to h-e-l-l. Not everybody believes as you do, and read thier bibles and seek thier guidance by the Holy Spirit, for the truth that he imparts to them. You make it sound like you and your church are the only ones that have the Holy Spirit in thier life.
I am sorry if that offends you, CatholicMom, but it is honestly how you come across.
I do not accept your version of the St.Peter story. It is Catholic theory, and not even all the early church fathers agreed on it either.
Church "fathers" such as Irenaeus, Polycarp, Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Hilary and Am-brose, never acknowledged or taught that Peter was the first Pope (A Handbook On The P-a-pacy, Bishop William Kerr, pgs. 48, 49.)
Now there is a whole lot more I could post on the subject, but really, what good would it do? You are grounded in believing your churches interpetation of how the popes ascended down, and I am grounded that Jesus is the rock, not Peter.
Again...as stated by your own church fathers, this too, is my belief
St. Hilary: "Upon this rock of the c-o-nfession is the building up of the Church.....This faith is the foundation of the Church" (De Trin-itate vi, 36. P.L. 10:186-7.)
St. Ambrose: "Faith in then the foundation of the Church, for not the human person of St. Peter but of faith is it said that the gates of h-e-l-l shall not prevail against it" (De Incarn., v. 34, P.L. 16:827.)
The early Church understood this c-o-mmission to be solely for Peter alone; and subsequently no transfer of power or authority was ever practised in the early church. However, when taking a br-o-ader look at Scripture, one should understand that all the disciples, and especially the apostle Paul, were also given the keys/authority to present the Kingdom of God to a lost world. And this c-o-m-mission has been given to all believers, vicariously; for all believers, according to the apostles Peter and John, are royal priests (1 Pet. 2 9; Rev. 1:6.)
I want to explain this c=o=m=ment I made in my post above:
You cannot FORCE your beliefs on somebody else, that is Gods job.
I mean that if God wants to convict somebodys heart, mind or consience, then that is his job. It is NOT up to anybody else to FORCE thier beliefs on another.
It was poorly worded, so I hope this makes it more understandable.
Laura,
I think I see what you mean about God…but I really still don’t understand how anyone can force their belief into another person’s heart, mind, or conscience. With God, He has already placed 'right and wrong' into our hearts and so I don't think He is going to take away any of your freewill to make sure you choose correctly. It is still up to you... No matter what one says or does…each person can still think as they please and believe as they please…
@ catholicismom I think Laura is trying to say even when u hv free will God still hv to reveal who Yeshua is, that revelation u can't come up with yourself it has to b given to to u just like ur first Pope Peter." Now if Peter is the Rock then u might S Well put him in the Redhead, since he is the Rock, Nd not god. To be honest u believe Peter a man whom Yeshua called the devil right after he told him this to be the the rock, of the church n later denies Yeshua 3 times, Yeshua,s foundation can't b shaky but Peter was the strongest man to do it
CatholicMom
Laura,
You said, ‘Whatever it is in your life that makes you happy. regardless of who agrees or disagree's, is your business.
Tell that to those in jail and prison….they will agree with you!
What you hold as belief in your mind….your Faith….is your own business for sure. It appears that people who belong to all the ecclesial communities that keep breaking off and forming new communities are still searching for their happiness…but that is their business and they have every right to follow their FREEWILL passions. It is God given!
@CatholicMom
That post was to NL. Of course it wasn't meant for to infer that people who are doing wrong in society, can do whatever makes them happy.
Nl stated:
I too came to a point where I found Catholic doctrine and practices untenable, but when I shopped around for another brand to join I found that they all have elements that were too hard to swallow. For me, if I couldn't believe in something else all they way, then it wasn't really any better than the Catholic faith I grew up with, and if that didn't cut it any longer then I just had to accept that religious beliefs had no place in my life any longer. I'm glad that I made that decision early on, and am much happier because of it.
That was my response to HIS comment. I mean come on, what are you saying? Was I to tell him he was gone to hell for not being Catholic, or choosing to do something that he feels makes him happy? You cannot FORCE your beliefs on somebody else, that is Gods job.
To pull cheery pick my response to him, and apply it to other situations is absurd. It was made in contex to a specific thing he said to me about him being happy with his decision. Who am I too Judge him, CatholicMom? Thats not our job, as I said.
You said:
It appears that people who belong to all the ecclesial communities that keep breaking off and forming new communities are still searching for their happiness…but that is their business and they have every right to follow their FREEWILL passions. It is God given!
FREEWILL passions? It is God given? Then why are you still in the Catholic Church? Are you doing that as well?
Again, NOT ALL share your PAS-SION for the Catholic Church!
The Apostle John, who outlived all the apostles, never mentions "pope" Peter's death, burial or even "s-u-cc-ession."
Church "fathers" such as Irenaeus, Polycarp, Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Hilary and Ambrose, never acknowledged or taught that Peter was the first Pope (A Handbook On The Papacy, Bishop William Kerr, pgs. 48, 49.)
Sorry,CatholicMom, no wonder there are so many "ecclesial communitys" !
Hi, Laura,
Since you copied and pasted and sent my posts [written to others] to whomever you wished, I didn’t think you would feel wronged by my answering one you sent to NL. Sorry. You are the first person to complain when someone makes a comment even though it wasn’t addressed to them that I have seen. I am sorry if I broke some blogging rule…
You said, ‘…You cannot FORCE your beliefs on somebody else, that is Gods job.’
God does not force Himself on anyone…
You said, ‘Who am I too Judge him, CatholicMom? Thats not our job, as I said.’
You are not judging anyone when you give an opinion on something just because it may not ‘match’ with what they are saying. If you wish to share what you think, they may be happy to hear what it is you have to say…even if it doesn’t match their idea exactly.
Yes, I am using my freewill passion and it keeps me passionate for the Catholic Church. The thing is, one might find it necessary to brush up on Church dogma, get a solid understanding of the Church and learn what the Bible states about it. Just this one verse cannot be twisted out of understanding… ‘the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth’. So when you keep that in mind as you study…it is a positive not a negative! But if you do not want to believe that verse which can stand alone…you are free to use your freewill as you choose and try to discredit it.
Peter was chosen to be our first Pope; when GOD gave AUTHORITY, He changed the name of the person receiving the authority.
Abram was renamed Abraham in Gen 17:5, when GOD made him 'Father of a Mult!tude of Nations'. Sarai was renamed Sarah in Gen 17:15-16, when GOD made her 'The Mother of Nations'. Jacob was renamed Israel in Gen 32:29, when GOD made him the 'Father of the nation of Israel'.
In Mt 16:18, GOD renamed Simon to PETER, and told him YOU are 'ROCK' and upon this 'ROCK' I will build MY CHURCH. Mt 16:19, I will give YOU the KEYS of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, and whatever YOU shall BIND on earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatever YOU shall LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.
Peter was the first leader of the Church and was given supremacy and authority over all the other Apostles.
What is Jesus saying here to Simon? Lk 22:31-32, satan has desired to have YOU that he may SIFT YOU as wheat. But I have prayed for thee that thy faith may not fail; and do thou when once thou hast turned again, STRENGTHEN thy brethren Jn 21:17, Simon dost thou love Me? FEED MY SHEEP. Act 1:15, PETER stood up in the midst of the brethren. Act 2:14, PETER, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and SPOKE OUT to them: Men of Judea and ALL you who dwell in Jerusalem let this be known to you, and give ear to MY WORDS. Act 15:7, GOD MADE CHOICE AMONG US, THAT THROUGH MY MOUTH, THE GENTILES SHOULD HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL AND BELIEVE. 1Cor 15:5, and that He appeared to CEPHAS (first) and AFTER that to the eleven. Who did Peter say made the choice among them? It was GOD.
If you believe the words of the Bible, the Word should carry more weight with you, Laura, than people who are trying to discredit it! It is a strange thing, these people who claim to love the Word are willing to twist the Bible to try to discredit the Catholic Church because of their hatred for the Church, and yet they received the Bible from the Catholic Church! It is absolutely beyond comprehension as to how this came about and it is something I wonder about…all these ecclesial communities as you stated….however one does have to call to mind that Jesus Christ did say that his Church will be persecuted….so be it…