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 File photo from October 21, 2003 shows Pope John Paul II saluting the crowd as he arrives for an ordination ceremony.
January 5th, 2011
02:58 PM ET
John Paul II could move toward sainthood this year, report saysBy Richard Allen Greene and Hada Messia, CNN The late Pope John Paul II could take a big step toward sainthood as early as this year, a longtime Vatican journalist reports. He could be beatified in a service led by Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican by the end of 2011 - an event that would be certain to draw hundreds of thousands of faithful. Medical and theological experts have credited John Paul II with the healing of a nun whose order prayed to him after he died in 2005. Sister Marie-Simon-Pierre says she was cured of Parkinson's disease. A team of cardinals and bishops will examine the reputed miracle this month and pass their verdict to the pope. If Benedict XVI confirms that it was a miracle, John Paul will be eligible to be beatified, the last step before sainthood. Journalist Andrea Tornielli, who has covered the Vatican for many years, first reported the news Tuesday. The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, and the Vatican office studying the case for John Paul's sainthood both refused to comment on the matter when questioned by CNN Wednesday. But if the miracle is confirmed by the Catholic Church, John Paul II could be beatified as soon as April 2, the sixth anniversary of his death, Tornielli said. That would be very fast in Vatican terms. Other possible dates are May 18, John Paul's birthday, or October 16, the anniversary of the date he was elected pope in 1978, Tornielli said, suggesting the last date is most likely, to give the church time to prepare what will be an enormous event, even by the Vatican's standards.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Not a good idea. You should always wait at least 200 years regardless of who it is.
Waiting 200 years is good advice 'cause there will be no eyewitness or first hand accounts to spoil the fun with facts. This is pretty much how the jesus myth was able to be fraudulently inst-itutioanalized as reality. Fortunately, record keeping has improved significantly over the past 2000 years so it's less likely that new myths will be as easily foisted on the gullible.
HotAirAce. I disagree with your comment. I recommend that you either read "The Case for Christ". Lee Strobal, who wrote the book, is a former non-believer.
Hey true believers. There are really very few athiests in the world. All the ones posting here are the same clown posting over and over again using different names.
There are many more atheists than there were a few years ago, thanks to the revelations about pedophiles in the church.
Speaking as one new atheist who used to take communion to the sick.
Wrong again, sparky.
JP2 – merely another charlatan, in a long line of charlatans. You would think these guys would use their powers to do something really useful, like solve world hunger or peace. Would really like to see the list of medical doctors that support the "curing" of a single person as a miracle. I wonder what the rate of spontaneous/unexplained remission is – I bet it's not zero...
HotAirAce, you ask for something "useful." How about the oeverthrow of the Soviet despotic regime that was responsible for the deaths of millions of it own citizens and those of other countries? World hunger? A tragedy, to be sure, but you do know that the Catholic Church is the largest and most active charity in the world? I am sorry that your prejudice precludes your reason. Pace!
@Convert
Please provide support for claim re: Soviet Union. There's nothing the rcc can do to offset two (at the least) great evils: 1) misleading millions of people for over 2000 years with man made tribal myths and 2) molestation of children and cover up of same.
Thank you for dispelling fiction with fact.
@shinden58
You are welcome!
No Saints, your fundamental premise about sainthood is flawed...many, many saints were not popes, but regular folks, so if you are wrong there, where else, or do you really want to learn?
How many innocent children were defiled while this Pope reigned over the Catholic church? How did he respond when the prayers of these HELPLESS CHILDREN and their parents reached the offices of the Vatican? Did he pursue the evil-doers, or did he turn it over to underlings to sweep under the heirloom tapestries and ornamental carpets? Did he put the welfare of the helpless, the meek, and the powerless first, or did he protect the reputation and position of the church and turn a deaf ear...leaving dozens, if not hundreds of disgusting perverts in positions of trust and authority so that they could prey on children again and again and again. SAINTHOOD? Please.
AMEN!!!!
Comments please.
make this man holy or saint? dam pedophiles!
Yo, Lolita! "Dam" has an "n" at the end of it.
No one makes a person a saint. We can recognize one though.
@CatholicMom
Did I hear you call me -CMoM...? 🙂
Peace...
Peace2All,
Good Morning to you! I am enjoying my morning coffee with my husband and doing a little reading here.
What do you have to say about all the varying comments...it is amazing how wide and differing they are to me. So many that call themselves Christians do not understand sainthood at all...and those that aren't Christians disapprove. Quite amazing!
@CatholicMom
I hoped that you thoroughly enjoyed your morning coffee with your husband...
As far as the comments and the article. Strangely enough, I really don't have a whole lot to say on this particular article. (I know, I know, ... you must be wondering if i'm feeling o.k..?) 🙂
As an agnostic, I really try not to make any claims as to truly knowing the knowledge of God, etc... should there be one. And, as for the Pope moving toward sainthood, being dead already, because somebody prayed to him, and he allegedly healed someone of Parkinson's... What can ya' say to that...? Everybody is arguing one way or the other... so, I don't know. I'm certainly open to the 'possibility' that in fact, this may all have happened as they 'believe.'
But, you know me... I'm a real stickler on people trying to claim *beliefs* as *facts*
So, with that said... is it possible... yes.... Is it 'probable' ... I can only give *my belief or opinion* and I am leaning towards the 'probability' level that it happened is low.
But, who knows...? See, that's where I am and why I don't really have much to say on this one.
What do you think...? I 'assume' you 'believe' that this is accurate, in that a Pope on the 'other side' of life healed someone...?
Peace...
Peace2All,
What I believe is that prayer/pet!tions were directed to Pope John Paul II asking him to pray for this nun, for a cure, and God heard Pope John Paul II’s prayer through Jesus Christ and granted the nun a miracle.
Good to hear from you and I respect your comments…………..
Despite the problems of the church with the pedophile priests, Pope John Paul II was perhaps the most well known and most "people" pope of any I can remember. No one is perfect and he can't be blamed for the actions of the priests, only maybe for how the church reacted..that doesn't change his personal "aura", for lack of a better term. His beatification was a foregone conclusion and in only 6 years, that is almost unheard of.
yes, the pope should be held criminally liable for the actions of the people he is leading. It happens in every business – if a supervisor is abusing an employee, the COMPANY is held accountable for failing to address the problem. JPII and the current pope knew what was going on, it was an inconvenient truth, and they CHOSE to let the children suffer rather than disciple their priests. They are guilty of conspiracy and should be prosecuted, not beatified!
I agree. He was not a perfect man- noone is. I doubt any cover up went as high as the Pope, and I would think even that was not until some of the public furor began. The very worst that is likely is that he may have known- in my mind probably after he became Pope- and didn't take actions that might have taken care of the problem before it became a public scandal. Remember, these acts- which were disgusting and wrong in every way- took place over MANY decades, not just during JP2's term, so we cannot blame him for more than playing some small role in all fairness. Many of these crimes, in fact, happened long before. Let's not forget the GOOD that the Catholic church does every day and tar ALL Catholics (myself included) with the crimes of a small number of priests. As usual, I can never believe the vitrol of some people on these boards. You don't have to agree with my faith, and I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but the least we can do is treat each other with respect and not insult each other.
@Jen: If he knew and did nothing, he is to blame. Whether it occured before he became Pope or after, if he knew about the abuses, but proceeded to cover it up, he is directly responsible for preventing justice for the victims. I'm sorry, but even a small role in the s3xual abuse of children, is a fantastically disgusting position for a person who is supposed to be a moral, religious leader. You seem to be glossing over the ugliness of it, by telling yourself well the church does good too. But that will never justify your position.
They are so happy to have found something that they can blame the pope and the catholics....
I'm a proud Christian and yes miracles do happen. For those on here spouting their anti-Christian venom, then why do you even care about this? If you prefer not to believe in Jesus, then that is your hopeless prerogative. You don't have to answer to me about your belief, but you will someday have to answer to God.
In reality, this is not affecting you, even though you love to think that it is. Its obvious that you have nothing better to do with your life than spout off about others beliefs. How sad your life must be...
By the way, I don't beleive in atheists. Therefore, they do not exist!
The atheist exist only because the faithful exist.
Wow, thanks for marginalizing me because of my lack of belief in your god. Do you fail to see the irony in your post complaining about people spewing venom towards your beliefs?
@Jay,
I have to say you my friend are thoroughly confused about what a Christian is, it is not our place to judge any man for if we do we shall be judged ten fold. That being said please go read your bible you are making true Christians seem like dolts with your counter productive statements.
Chuck – since you believe in nothing, then it is not a belief system even though you may think differently. As far as marginalizing you, nice try but no cigar. Since you think that my beliefs and opinions are wrong, then why would you feel marginalized by them? Very Interesting...
As for my opinion, I was responding to the anti-religious comments that many have posted on here. Now, I am done wasting my time with you.
Stopthemadness – My comment was not counterproductive and obviously you did not read my comment above very well. I stated that they do not have to answer to me about their beliefs, but they will have to answer to God.
Therefore, God will be the one to judge, not me.
@Chuck: No, apparently Jay does not see the irony. He apparently can care about what people who differ in opinion think, because apparently it's affecting him. But we cannot provide opposing ideas because what he thinks obviously does not affect us. It's a funny, prideful hypocrisy that many Christians are blind to in themselves. Thankfully that position never works to stifle debate.
LOL. Your responses to my comments have just proved my point. 🙂
@Jay: Of course, it proved the point that your posts are biased.
Wow he didnt do anything god healed her. i thought catholics dont beleive in miracles?
Catholics believe that thru prayerful intercession God will allow a miracle, if it is His will. It's like calling your mom asking her to pray for your sick child – you know your mom can't "cure" her but you're asking her for a prayerfull intercession.
You have obviously NOT been in a Catholic education class. Ever. We talk about miracles all the time as they are central to our Faith (Virgin birth, anyone ?).
I said it above, but....
The article (and the Vatican) expressly states: "Medical and theological experts have credited John Paul II with the healing of a nun whose order prayed to him after he died in 2005. Sister Marie-Simon-Pierre says she was cured of Parkinson's disease."
Nothing about Jesus/Holy Spirit/God healing them, but JPII.
Agreed James Swanson, how is this different than a cult or another false religion? "Praying to JPII???" I would think that good ole robo-pope would not approve of this idolatry.
James Swanson,
I am sure that they meant that the miracle was granted by God due to John Paul II’s prayers .
Great Aaother pedophilia loving/hiding/lying/coniving idol canonized....can hardly wait!
You bring the cake, I'll bring the ice cream!
Why do atheist spend so much of their valuable time on a faith blog? I would think you would have better things to do. On the other hand, you may want faith in something.
'On the other hand, you may want faith in something.'
Nah, we just want a good laugh.
News Flash.....Faith doesn't come in a nice little demented pretty package! It comes because you research, study, learn, and adopt a philosophy.......you don't have to be "atheist" just to believe in another faith. And last I checked, I still had rights to post whatever the heck I please. Get over your "so called" Christian self!
This is on the main page of CNN.com. Excuse me if I like to read.
LOL Anglican I was wondering the same thing! Lots of time spent on something they don't believe in - weird.
One day Anglican will stand before God, Perhaps he will be able to convince God that He does not exist.
Anglican,
No one is exempt from commenting on anything.
Atheists are becoming the new Christians: pompous blowhards who believe they have the truth.
Anglican asks: "Why do atheist spend so much of their valuable time on a faith blog?"
Maybe we're outraged that the religious aren't outraged.
A man who said God forbade the use of condoms in Africa during an AIDS epidemic, causing huge amounts of suffering and death, may be given the status of "Saint" because he supposedly healed one nun.
I don't speak for every atheist, but I wish some people could see the irony.
it's all so completely, utterly irrelevant to 99% of the world and its troubles. Churchianity is dying.
Wow, how misinformed. The greatest increase in atheists and even forced atheism occurred in China and the former USSR in the 20th Century. Since then atheism has seen a huge decrease and more and more free people choose religion to be an intregal part of their lives.
99 percent of the world? Where is your evidence?
The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:
Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries Religions/grous involved
1 63 million Second World War 20C (Christians et al and Communists vs. Christians et al, Nazi-Pagan and "Shintoists")
2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C (Communism)
40 million Genghis Khan 13C (Shamanism or Tengriism vs Muslims and Christians)
4 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C (Anglican)
5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Chinese folk religion)
6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C ( Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion vs. a form of Christianity)
20 million Joseph Stalin 20C (Communism)
8 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C (Islam)
9 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
10 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C (Christianity)
11 15 million First World War 20C (Christians vs. Christians)
15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C (Christians vs Pagans)
13 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C
14 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
10 million Xin Dynasty 1C
16 9 million Russian Civil War 20C (Christians vs Communists)
17 8 million Fall of Rome 5C (Pagans vs Pagans)
8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C (Christians vs Pagans)
19 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C (Christians vs Christians)
7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
Reality – you should change your user name to falsehood. The Communists were atheists who were fighting against all religions especially the Church. The greatest evil ever done to humanity were the atheists of the 20th Century, Nazism and Communism all which under the blanket of Darwin's eugenics.
Let's hope not, the alternative is pretty scary - Islam, Believe of Die
@Bob D. – Call "reality" Narcissus, since he/she is in love with his/her image in the blogs. Never have run across anyone so fond of posting the same stuff over and over and over and over...
vtdad, if you really believe that then you are delusional. If that were true we wouldn't have so many churches world wide.
Jesus was magic and so was JP2, evidently.
If even an angel told the apostle John not to render him homage, how is it acceptable to do so to an imperfect (sinful) human? Rev.19:9
It's not homage, silly. It's a way of determining if he is indeed a saint, an exceptionally spiritual person who did good on earth & whose soul is certainly in Heaven. Even if the Vatican decides they do not have evidence of sainthood, it does not mean he is not a saint. It only means they cannot prove he is.
The only miracle that John Paul II really pulled off was keeping the biggest group of organized child molesters hidden from public scrutiny for such a long time.
You are the typical citizen of this dumb country. Dumb, gullible, and bigoted. Too bad there are millions of other like you.
Many many millions more. Thank gawd.
Absolutely right! He and the Vatican were complicit in covering up child abuse for many years. Instead of canonizing him, how about investigating him for his part in crimes against humanity?
Yo, Ava! Chaching!
I agree.
The Deification of a human being. Expressly forbidden by Jesus Christ and the early teachings of the Christian Church.
Frankly, this kind of crossing the line will only further the decline of Church authority – really the opposite of its intended effect.
Even the intercession of the priesthood between man and his God is an invention of the Catholic Church.
this is a common misunderstanding among Protestants and Baptists; sainthood is not a deification, not by any standard. If you believe that good people can enter Heaven then sainthood is the Church's statement that a person has lived a heroic life of virtue and faith and is in Heaven. Simple stuff. For more info read St. John's Revelation.
Revelation:
"Last book of the New Testament. It consists of two main parts, the first containing moral admonitions to several Christian churches in Asia Minor, and the second composed of extraordinary visions, allegories, and symbols that have been the subject of varying interpretations throughout history. A popular interpretation is that Revelation deals with a contemporary crisis of faith, possibly the result of Roman persecutions. It exhorts Christians to remain steadfast in their faith and hold firm to the hope that God will ultimately vanquish their enemies. References to "a thousand years" have led some to expect that the final victory over evil will come after the completion of a millennium (see millennialism). Modern scholarship accepts that the book was written not by St. John the Apostle but by various unknown authors in the late 1st century AD."
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/book-of-revelation#ixzz1ACmii4zb
Added "takes" on Revelation:
"Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]
Martin Luther "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]
We are all called to be Saints. Jesus died on the Cross so that we might live. God is God of the living not the dead. We are given a share in Christ's priesthood through Baptism and Confirmation. A priest through Holy Orders makes Christ's priesthood present to us; once a priest always a priest...and Christ continues His priesthood through the ministerial priesthood through His inst!tution of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. "As the Father had sent Jesus...so He sent the Apostles."
The Apostles' Creed 2010: (updated based on the studies of historians and theologians during the past 200 years)
I might believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created state of bliss called heaven.
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary.
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
@ CatholicMom
The article expressly states "Medical and theological experts have credited John Paul II with the healing of a nun whose order prayed to him after he died in 2005. Sister Marie-Simon-Pierre says she was cured of Parkinson's disease."
It does not say that the Holy Spirit or God healed the woman, but Pope JPII. This is definitely a deification and not just a man living a "saintly" life. I'm sorry to ruin your thoughts on this, but people can't heal people on their own and praying to a person, even if they are cannonized, is a deification of said person. I have no problem with cannonization besides this activity of praying to them as if they are above humanity.
Also, the Bible is filled with teachings that only God knows the heart, so for the Catholic Church to claim they know certain people will be in Heaven is a gross overstatement and extremely prideful. If I had a guess, I would guess most of the saints will be in Heaven, but that's not for mortal men to say.
James Swanson
Don't look to a CNN Reporter for Catholic Doctrine. Go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Just as I can ask you to pray for me I can also ask someone in Heaven to pray for me. Because the person in Heaven is seeing God face-to-face his or her prayers are more efficacious than a person on earth. There is no credit to the person in Heaven performing the miracle. The Catholic Church has always said the only person who lived on earth that was God is Jesus. Calling anyone else God is blasphemy.
I think the issue that nick2 & James swanson are pointing out is that there is not case in the protestant bible of anyone claiming to heal a person in their own authority except Jesus, and even he gave glory to the father and the spirit. As far as the Catholic doctrine of saints having "more influence" since they are in heaven, perhaps you can provide some scripture to support that. What I see is that we are directed to intercede for people while we are alive, there is nothing stating we can or will do that after death.
1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version, ©2010)
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
James Swanson,
Was it a prayer/pet!tion for John Paul II to pray for the health of the nun through Jesus Christ? I did not see the prayer printed in the comment or how the prayer was worded, did you?
Your thoughts are bazaar on how you think the Catholic Church deifies saints.
I pray for all the people of the world which includes you; does that make me deified if some good should come to the world? Clearly, as a Catholic, let me tell you that if some good should come to the world because of my praying…the good would come from God, not me.
Do you pray for others? Does that make you a deity if your pray is granted?
Google: the communion of saints catholic encyclopedia
Yes, God knows the heart of everyone. He also knows His Church which He founded, which is the House of God, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Father sent Jesus with power, and Jesus in turn sent the Apostles with power out into the world to do as He commanded. And it has been so for 2000 years……….
To be prideful of being Christian and following Jesus Christ is not a boastful, rude, or snide kind of pride, but a joyous pride as the pride that a small child has, who dearly loves her Father. The Church is without stain, wrinkle or any such thing and was made so by its founder, Jesus Christ. The Paraclete was sent by Jesus Christ to guide and guard His Church and He promised evil will not prevail over Her. But persecutions will abound due to the world which hates what it does not know. Get to know His Church……
You may know that we are called to be Saints …as no unclean thing will enter Heaven…so we must strive to be perfect as our Father who is in Heaven is perfect.
Hmmm, let us see what some of the experts (NT, historical Jesus exegetes) have to say about the "Son of God" references in the NT:
Matt 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
Not said by the historical Jesus, but more embellishment my Matthew. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/111_Invocation_without_Obedience
Matt 9:6 Passage notes "Son of Man" not Son of God.
faithfutures.org/index.php/127_Sickness_and_Sin
Matt 10:32-33, ""Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; /33/ but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven"
"Ludemann [Jesus, 344] states " this is a prophetic admonition from the post-Easter community. For it, Jesus and the Son of man were 'identical in the future: Jesus will return in the near future as the Son of man with the clouds of heaven. In his earthly life he was not yet the Son of man, since he will come to judgment only with the clouds of heaven (Dan. 7.13f) at the end of days' (Haenchen)."
Matt 11:27 "All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
faithfutures.org/index.php/045_Father_and_Son and
"Lüdemann [Jesus, 330f] invokes the classic description from K. Hase of this passage as a "thunderbolt from the Johannine heavens." He notes the typically Johannine reference to mutual knowledge between Father and Son, and the absolute use of "Son" as a designation for Jesus. In dismissing the saying's authenticity, Luedemann also notes the similarity to ideas in the post-Easter commissioning scene at Matt 28:18, "All authority has been given to me ..."
Matt 1:20- 225 (another "pretty, wingie thingie requirement)
20/ But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. /21/ She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." /22/ All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: /23/ "Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means, "God is with us." /24/ When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, /25/ but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus."
"Bruce Chilton
In Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography (2000), Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circ-umstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-identi-ty, his concept of God and his spiritual quest. "
Mark 1: 11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased."
faithfutures.org/index.php/058_John_Baptizes_Jesus
"Gerd Lüdemann
Lüdemann [Jesus, 9] affirms the historicity of Jesus being baptized by John, but does not trace the theological interpretations back beyond the post-Easter community:
... Jesus did not regard his baptism as appointment to be the son of God. The underlying concept derives from the community, which believed in Jesus as the son of God (cf. Gal. 2.16; 4.4) and located his appointment within his lifetime. In the earliest period, for example, the appointment of Jesus as son of God came only after his resurrection from the dead (cf. Rom. 1.4).
"John P. Meier – Professor at Notre Dame
The second volume of A Marginal Jew devotes considerable space to a study of John as "mentor" to Jesus. The historicity of the baptism is addressed on pages 100-105, before considering the meaning of Jesus' baptism on pages 106-116. On the basis of the criterion of embarrassment, supported by a limited proposal for multiple attestation (relying on possible echoes of a Q version in John's Gospel and in 1 John 5:6), Meier concludes:
We may thus take the baptism of Jesus by John as the firm historical starting point for any treatment of Jesus' public ministry. (II,105)
Having established the historicity of the baptism event, Meier is adamant that the narrative must be seen as a Christian midrash, drawing on various OT themes to assert the primacy of Jesus over John. In particular, Meier insists that the theophany must be excluded from all attempts to understand the event, since it is a later Christian invention rather than a surviving memory of some actual spiritual experience of Jesus.
Meier's discussion of the meaning of the baptism puts great weight on the fact that accepting baptism implied Jesus' agreement with John's apocalyptic message, and also engages at length with the question of Jesus' sinlessness."
Catholic Mom,
You are correct, I took the CNN article at face value and obviously they didn't do their homework (as I didn't) on the other stories coming out of the news about this miracle. So I apologize for being ignorant on that matter. Thanks for clearing it up.
However, you have provided no basis for the Catholic Church to know who gets into Heaven. So to say that the Church knows John Paul II is at the feet of Jesus is still an overstatement (as I stated before, I am guessing he is, but I don't know for sure). Nobody, except the Lord, knew the heart of JPII or any of us, except ourselves.
You said "He also knows His Church which He founded, which is the House of God, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Father sent Jesus with power, and Jesus in turn sent the Apostles with power out into the world to do as He commanded. And it has been so for 2000 years………."
I am curious as to which Church you are talking about, the Church as the body of Christ with Jesus at the head, or are you talking about the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church of the Roman Catholic tradition? I agree with you about Jesus sending out the disciples, but He sent them all out equally, not sequentially with Peter as their head. But it kind of matters where you are coming from, if you think that those not in the Roman Catholic Church are actually not in the true Church of Christ.
"To be prideful of being Christian and following Jesus Christ is not a boastful, rude, or snide kind of pride, but a joyous pride as the pride that a small child has, who dearly loves her Father. The Church is without stain, wrinkle or any such thing and was made so by its founder, Jesus Christ. The Paraclete was sent by Jesus Christ to guide and guard His Church and He promised evil will not prevail over Her. But persecutions will abound due to the world which hates what it does not know. Get to know His Church……"
I totally agree with most of your statements, but I think from the sometime around the Fall of Man, The Church (as in the full body of believers in the God of Abraham) has been full of stains and wrinkles. And the reason is.....its filled with imperfect people. I really don't understand how you can say that the Church is without stain, especially if you are talking about the Roman Catholic Church (i.e. Inquisition, Child Abuse). All other churches have stains and wrinkles as well, but they don't claim to not have them. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit, if anything the case could be made that it has a deficiency of the Holy Spirit with its emphasis on rites, rules, and standardized prayers over all else.
If you are talking about being without stain as being washed in the blood of the lamb, then yes, I agree, but I think it is a continual washing and introspective process and not a one act and done (2000 years ago for the church, however long ago for us) renewal. The baptism of the body is a single event, baptism of the soul takes a lifetime (or more likely longer than that as none get it perfect).
James Swanson,
You responded but I will not be able to answer until either tonight or tomorrow evenings…..hope the page is still up and running…………
James Swanson,
The basis for the Catholic Church to be able to recognize a Saint is through the process that is taken to accept the miracles. We Christians believe in miracles. If Pope John Paul II was asked to intercede for this person and God granted a miracle, we accept it as such. The Church with its understanding of the Communion of Saints is reason enough to believe then that these ‘prayed for’ miracles through intercession could not have occurred if the Saint was not in Heaven.
We believe the communion of saints includes the Baptized persons of the world. The only thing that can cause you to lose your connection to this ‘family’ of believers is to have mortal sin on your soul and the One who ‘cuts the branch from the vine’ because of bearing no fruit or bad fruit is our Father in Heaven. When we die, if we are not cut off, we remain members of the Communion of Saints. All members can intercede for the good of each other now and in Heaven…..
"I am the GOD of Abraham, and the GOD of Isaac, and the GOD of Jacob.
I am not the GOD of the dead but of the living."
Mt 22:32, Mk 12:26-27
Because of our living in Christ through Baptism, we are truly ALIVE! There is only one Baptism…not one of the body and another for the soul as you say. When we pass from this life on earth into our everlasting life, we live on as members of Christ’s Body and are not DEAD. The Dead are dead in their mortal sins which they refused to confess or show repentance of these sins. These are the ‘dead’ and they cannot intercede for us any longer.
"And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, power of administration, and the speaking of various tongues. Are all Apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"
1Cor 12:28-30.
Family members have different skills….notice miracles….
"For as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, many as they are, form one body (family), so also is it with Christ."
1Cor 12:12.
"Therefore, you are now no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are citizens with the Saints and members of GOD's household: you are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief corner stone. In Him the whole structure is closely fitted together and grows into a temple holy in the Lord; in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for GOD in the Spirit."
Eph 2:19-22
Dying does not disconnect us from our family! We are on a journey but our citizenship in the Communion of Saints is there for us.
"That there may be no disunion in the body, but that the members may have care for one another. And if one member suffers anything, all members suffer with it, or of one member glories, all the members rejoice with it."
1Cor 12:25-26
As members here or in Heaven, we care for one another! When you stub your toe, does not the whole body know it? Yes! When your tongue enjoys a delicious taste, does not the whole body rejoice? Yes. So it is with the Body of Christ!
"And He Himself gave some men as Apostles, and some as prophets, others again as evangelists, and others as pastors and teachers, in order to perfect the saints for a work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ."
Eph 4:11-12.
Through Baptism we become sharers in the Priesthood of Christ…Him working through us! What is this work we should do? It is doing the Will of the Father!
St. Dominic said, ‘Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.’
James, I hope the above helps you understand the Catholic Communion of Saints a little better.
You asked, ‘I am curious as to which Church you are talking about, the Church as the body of Christ with Jesus at the head, or are you talking about the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church of the Roman Catholic tradition?
I was talking about the House of God which is the Church that Jesus Christ founded, as I said, which is the pillar and foundation of Truth, and from which flows Christ’s saving graces. The mystical Body of Christ with Christ as the Head is the invisible ‘church’…the Communion of Saints. We cannot look at a person and know their soul and know if they are a member or not, that is why it is called the mystical/invisible body. The House of God is visible, not hidden under a bushel basket, out of view. It is the pillar and foundation of Truth and is without stain, wrinkle or any such thing…
Jesus speaks to His Apostles:
Matthew 28:16-20
16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
We receive the Holy Spirit through Baptism….this is why Jesus commands them to baptize ALL NATIONS…every person!
Jesus speaks to His Apostles:
John 14:26
26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
The Paraclete, the Advocate, the Holy Spirit is given to the Apostles here.
Matthew 16:18-20
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
Here we find Peter, the first Pope, and the start of the Catholic Church.
Ephesians 5:27
27that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
It is expected that the Church be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. This can be the Kingdom of God on earth, His Catholic Church, or it can mean the Baptized members of the mystical Body of Christ.
As you mentioned, people sin, and are in need of confessing and repenting to remain in this perfect state that Baptism puts us in. But the Catholic Church, the disperser of graces through Sacraments appears to me to be the Church without blemish; we are talking about the inst!tution, not the humans that make up the personages; we are talking about the grace which flows from the Sacraments dispensed to us by those ordained to the Priesthood [persona Christi] and all the guidance we receive due the Promises of Christ for His Church, as mentioned in above verses.
You can look at the Church as the ‘hospital’ where the sin which makes our soul sick is washed away by Sacraments, first Baptism, then all the rest of the Sacraments [seven total] continually keeping us in His grace. This is what Jesus did for us….died on the Cross for our sins, once for all, so that we might have life everlasting with Him in Heaven; founded His Church, breathing the Holy Spirit into His Apostles and their successors and giving them the strength to go forward towards fulfilling His command in Matthew 28, and inst!tuted His Sacraments so that we may be perfected…. as in Matthew 5:48…. So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
You may reach your perfection without ‘rites, rules, and standardized prayers’ but I prefer any help I can get in direction for my life from the Church that Jesus Christ founded. One of the most beautiful prayers is the Hail Mary. Every time it is said we are praying the Bible…..; [haven’t you ever memorized a verse or two?]; the Mass is a re-presenting of the Sacrifice of Jesus; rules may upset you, but what community can live without them?
The case could be made that other ecclesial communities have some Truth in them but the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Some believe in the Bible, some only parts of the Bible. The Catholic Church believes in the whole Bible, the Magesterium, and Tradition. 1 Cor 11:2…this Tradition.
Thanks for the info, we obviously disagree about many things, but I appreciate our discussion.
Your first two statements along with the St. Dominic quote are the only things (for the most part) that are expressly Catholic. You are obviously well read in the Bible and the defense of Catholic teachings, but none of your arguments for these came from the Bible. All your other statements had Biblical references, why do these not have any? I believe they are just teachings the Catholic Church added as time went on for various reasons.
James Swanson,
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?
I believe the Bible tells us that not all Truth is in the Bible for if it were the world could not hold all the books which would contain it!
Also Jesus Christ did say that He would send the Paraclete to the Apostles and the Paraclete would bring them into remembrance of all that they should recall [Tradition] and also He would bring them to the fullness of Truth as they could accept it. Google: Ex Cathedra-Catholic.
I thought I said it earlier, but yes I believe in the Trinity and I know that that word is never used in the Bible. What I don't believe in is an insti-tution (again not talking about individuals in the religion) that says it follows Christ and claims that those who do not go to Mass, pray there, and give money there are eternally separated from God. This is the definition of Hell, so Purgatory ranks the same, in Catholic's minds, for the Protestants because nobody will pray for me during Mass after I die or give money to the Catholic Church after I die. You were more than likely baptized as a baby, correct. So what you are saying is that a decision made for you by your parents (before you knew you had a soul or a self) puts you as heaven's elect while those of us who made the decision through the Spirit and on our own terms are eternally dam-ned. There is no basis in the Bible for this whatsoever. The Church pulls scriptures out and 2000 years worth of interpreting has boiled down "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, nobody comes to the Father except through Me" into "We are the Catholic Church, the Way, the Truth, and the Light, nobody gets into Heaven unless they give money and prayers at our holy cathedrals." I believe it will be an interesting day when Heaven has many people who were never baptized in a church, whatever the denomination and Hell has many people who were baptized (and confirmed for Catholics, and a few Protestants) whatever the denomination. Again, I am talking of those baptized in the flesh and not in the Spirit. They should be one and the same, but unfortunately are not most of the time. In case you were wondering, I am not "charismatic" in that I think there are many forms of baptism of Spirit, not just speaking in tongues.
James Swanson,
I do not know how closely you try to follow what the Catholic Church teaches but you have been mislead by your sources. I only asked you about the Trinity because of the way you have been posting… asking why I didn’t use Bible references for two of my comments.
I do believe the Bible is the Word of God but I believe in all of it, not just a pulled verse here and there.
When I read and hear the Word of God [and we are supposed to hear it spoken to us by someone sent] I accept it as Truth. So when I hear that the Paraclete was promised to the Apostles by Jesus Christ, I believe He fulfilled that promised after He ascended into Heaven just as He promised.
The Church does not say that people are eternally separated from God just because they do not belong to the Catholic Faith. There are those who do not understand Mass, our prayers, Sacraments, and our devotion to the Word of God. God and His mercy are just in all His Works. There can be those with the mark of Baptism in Heaven and in Hell; there can be by the grace of God, persons without the mark of Baptism in Heaven and in Hell. This is what the Church teaches so please, do not spread untruths.
Those souls who need cleansing as through fire [purging],and are at the door of Heaven,… anyone who is being cleansed [we know that nothing unclean will enter Heaven Rev. 21:27], all are prayed for by the Church, especially those who are most in need of prayer…that is what we pray…this prayer is for all members of the mystical body of Christ who have not been cut off as a branch from the vine by our Father in Heaven. This includes all souls who have been Baptized into the Body of Christ…not just Baptized Catholics. Anyone who has been Baptized with water and with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the Baptized that are prayed for; they are members of the Body of Christ; and we all then are members of the Communion of Saints…those in Heaven and those on their journey.
Yes, my parents asked for Baptism for me when I was a baby and it was through their faith that I received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know about your Baptism so I cannot comment on it.
Your comment, ‘…has boiled down "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, nobody comes to the Father except through Me" into "We are the Catholic Church, the Way, the Truth, and the Light, nobody gets into Heaven unless they give money and prayers at our holy cathedrals."…. I find that statement as showing an angry tone from you but it appears to me that you hate finding out that you have the Catholic Church pegged wrongly and think if you say it enough times, surely you will have it right.
The Catholic Church is not a ‘denomination’….denominations are derived from ‘something else’. Such as Lutheranism was derived from the Catholic Church when they broke with the Church in 1521. Then in 1521, Thomas Munzer started Anabaptists by breaking from Lutheranism.
1534, King Henry VIII started the Church of England. (Anglican)
1536, John Calvin, teaching predestination, formed the Calvinists.
1560, John Knox, who studied under Luther, started Presbyterians.
1582, Congregationalists started by Rob Brown, as a branch from Puritanism.
1609, John Smyth formed the Baptists. They have severely splintered since then.
1739, John Wesley started the Methodists, in a split from Anglicanism.
1774, Theophilus Lindley started Unitarians.
1789, Samuel Seabury started Episcopalians.
1793-1809, Churches of Christ had four separate founders.
1830, Joseph Smith founded the Mormons in Palmyra New York.
1860, William Miller, a farmer, started the Adventists.
1863, Ellen Gould White started the Seventh-Day Adventists.
1865, William Booth started the Salvation Army.
1875, New Age was started by Helena Blavatsky. *COL 2:8
1879, Mary Baker Eddy started Christian Scientists.
1879, Charles Russell started the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1895, French Abbe, Alfred Loisy and English Jesuit, George Tyrrell started Modernism.
1900-1920, conservative Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists,
formed a consortium, and started Fundamentalism.
1901, Pentecostalism was started in the United States. It has since split into many independents.
1914, Felix Manalo started Iglesia ni Cristo.
1930, Independent Churches of America (IFCA), was formed by a consortium of churches.
1952, L. Ron Hubbard started the Church of Scientology.
1965, Chuck Smith began Calvary Chapel.
1968, Disciples of Christ, started as a splinter of Churches of Christ.
1974, Ken Gullickson started the Vineyard Christian Fellowship.
20th century. Assemblies of GOD, and other splinter Pentecostal groups, are SOME of hundreds of denominations founded by mere men.
Thank you again for the info, I am sorry if I misrepresented Catholicism. I took the information about praying and doing acts of charity that I learned about and thought they meant that this was prayers and giving at Mass and not that all Catholic's prayed for all the people they believe are in purgatory. I word things badly sometimes, because I was not angry at all, just confused if what you are talking about is Catholic doctrine.
I do have one final question about your understanding of Catholicism. Let's say I am an unbaptized, simple protestant and I believe, follow, and understand the words of Jesus as well as accepted Him as personal Lord and Savior. I have never been to Mass, don't take communion, have never confessed to a priest, or went through confirmation. Would the Catholic Church believe there to be a chance to see me in Heaven? (If you don't know, its fine, but I was wondering)
James Swanson,
No one knows how God will judge another’s soul and so no one can say who is in Heaven, being purified, or in Hell. So we can pray for those who are still living on this earth and we can pray for souls in purgatory but there is no need to pray for those in Heaven or Hell.
From my understanding, to answer your question…yes, the Catholic Church believes there to be a chance to see such a person in Heaven as the one you described. Where it becomes questionable about the person is this….if he had ever heard the Truth and realized that he was going against what Jesus was telling him to do but did it anyway, therein lies the problem….doing things your way instead of Jesus’ way can be sinful if the two are too different.
Let’s say that he heard that he should be Baptized so that Jesus Christ could be in Him and that he could be in Jesus Christ so that his works would merit in Heaven, …and he thought it made sense from what he read in the Bible, too, but then failed to do it …out of laziness, fear, or just thought he could do it ‘tomorrow’…again, being slothful is a sin, fear should vanish if he really felt close to his personal Lord and Savior, and putting off doing something that he knows Jesus Christ commanded the Apostles to go out to all nations and Baptize and makes it ‘urgent sounding’…and yet this man doesn’t do it….I do not know how the Father will judge that person. The Father will prune the vine if it does not produce good fruit or none at all, it is promised. Yet the Bible says that all the good works that a person might do but if it is done without Jesus Christ working through that person…those works will burn up as straw though the man may [MAY] be saved.
If the man has venial sins that is, sins that are not mortal [cause death of the soul] he may be purged of them as through fire [purgatory] and be in Heaven then. People know when they have committed a mortal sin…it is one that nags at the conscience which is the Holy Spirit prodding the person to confess and repent and have contrition.
If there is no Church, no chance for a Baptism, the absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least IMPLICIT OF BAPTISM, and this is called Baptism of Desire. But this does not mean that there are 3 different Baptisms…no, the Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire are forms of the One Baptism…there is only One Baptism.
I hope I have not over-whelmed you with my answer…especially if you were just looking for a ‘yes or no’ answer.
Miracles do not happen since actual miracles violate God’s gift of natural law. If God were involved in our daily lives, cures would not be needed. You cannot have it both ways.
Then there is this:
"Faith or pharmacy?
http://student.bmj.com/issues/02/02/life/33.php
It is interesting to compare the number of cures recognised before and after the establishment of the Lourdes/Vatican medical bureau in 1947. The ratio of cures to sick pilgrims before 1914 was 1:100. From 1914 to 1928 it was 1:700, but from 1928 to 1947 it was 1:1600. In all, 5000 cures were claimed before 1947. From 1947 to 1990, only 1000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognised in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.
It can be inferred from this that medicine has transformed society and the faithful sick no longer came to Lourdes for a cure but rely on medicine. Since the 1960s we have seen a consistent decline in the number of possible cures claimed. The doctors working in the medical bureau have presented philosophical problems in serving both science and the church. As we make progress in medical knowledge, the area of the medically inexplicable grows smaller and deciding that treatments did not play a part in a cure is more difficult. Medical progress has, in a way, threatened the church for which miraculous healings were supreme in the worldly manifestation of faith. "
Medical science didn't explain the nun's cure of Parkinson's after she prayed for the intercessory prayers of the late John Paul II. While miracles are happening less often at Lourdes, they are still happening. It isn't science that is causing them to happen less often–it is God's will.
Might want to check to see if the nun's order is profiting from the "cure".
Reality
Might want to check to see if the nun's order is profiting from the "cure".
January 6, 2011 at 7:51 am
*****
You might want to check what caused the cure her Parkinson's and see if the medical evidence that she had it is forged. I will bet you lots of money that it is not. If the cure did actually happen and there is no scientific explanation. You might want to figure out why. it would be best thing you ever did because you will find out that not only is God all powerful and all knowing, He loves you beyond all understanding. He can intercede in the trials and tribulations of your life if you ask Him. Always remember no sin is greater than God's Mercy.
"Tremor need not be Parkinson's disease: There is the tendency to believe that any tremor symptom, or shakiness, means Parkinson's disease. The reality is that there are various possibilities, such as benign essential tremor, which is mostly harmless. see the various causes of tremor and misdiagnosis of Parkinson's disease."
Read more at http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/p/parkinsons_disease/misdiag.htm?ktrack=kcplink#misdiagnote
Here is a brief overview of the top ten conditions mistaken for Parkinsons disease:
"1. Multiple System Atrophy (Shy-Drager Syndrome): a rapidly progressing disease that first features autonomic nervous system insufficiencies (dizziness, lack of bladder control, impotence, etc), and then takes on Parkinsons disease-type symptoms such as rigidity, tremor, bradykinesia, postural instability, and difficulty walking. Some neurological specialists have speculated Shy-Drager Syndrome may be a form of Parkinsons disease rather than a separate condition, but for now, it remains its own enti-ty.
2. Supranuclear Palsy: results in rapid paralysis of eye movements, rigidity, difficulty speaking, and subtle mental shifts. Supranuclear palsy is a disorder of a different part of the brain than Parkinsons disease, and patients with this condition do not respond to standard antiparkinsonian drugs such as levodopa. The speed at which the disease progresses also sets it apart from Parkinsons disease.
3. Benign Essential Tremor (familial tremor): a gradually progressing condition that shows as tremors in the hands and arms on both sides of a patients body, and occasionally the head. Unlike with Parkinsons familial tremor does not affect the legs, and the two illnesses respond to different drugs.
Beyond those top three, there are other conditions that are often confused with Parkinsons disease, including:
4. Multiple Sclerosis
5. Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (Lou Gehrigs disease)
6. Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus
7. Striato-Nigral Degeneration- form of multiple system atrophy involving the loss of connections between two areas of the brain, the striatum and the substantia nigra, which work together to ensure smooth movement and maintain balance.
8. Pseudobulbar Palsy: a bilateral impairment of the function of the lower cranial nerves 9, 10, 11 and 12 due to upper motor neuron lesion of the bulbar muscles from lesions of the corticobulbar pathways in the pyramidal tract.
9. Wilsons Disease
10. Hallervorden Spatz Disease: a degenerative movement disorder that is genetic
Plus a couple more-
11. Olivopontocerebellar Degeneration (OPCD)
12. Huntingtons Disease
With such a variety of illnesses sharing many of the same symptoms and characteristics, its not surprising Parkinsons disease is often misdiagnosed. People who have mild symptoms, or who would like a second opinion, should certainly ask their doctor about having the diagnosis confirmed by another physician. With early diagnosis being the key to maintaining longer-term independence and a high quality of life, it is important to have an accurate diagnosis so that appropriate treatment therapies can begin immediately."
Then there is this about the "all-knowing" god:
From Schillebeeckx, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)
"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .
"Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices.
Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings.
For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
Reality : "Tremor need not be Parkinson's disease:..." but it probably was because so many medical doctors looked into her case and deemed it Parkinson's. Because the people who diagnosed her with Parkinson's went to Medical School and they examined her, the odds are much better she had Parkinson's than she didn't. Please read about the Tilma of Juan Diego on internet search engine. Explain why the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the tilma itself have not decayed over the last 500 years if God or some other supernatural power didn't intervene. Read also about the Movement of the Sun in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 in an internet search engine article if you want still another event that the only reasonable explanation why it happened is because God or the Supernatural intervened. Don't you find "more than coincidental" as well that all these unexplained phenomena that we can talk about have such a strong Religious dimension to each of them as well? I find your name Reality ironic,,,,you seem like you sure don't want to face it.
Reality:
From Schillebeeckx, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)
"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .
"Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices.
Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings.
For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
****
Most Christians claim that God is not subject to natural law–hence the term Super Natural. So if God is not subject to nature's law and is all-powerful, then whatever He determines in advance will happen if He wants it to. I solemnly assure you, if he wanted to treat us like a puppet on a string–He could. He gave each of free will will to love Him and serve Him.. Why He did that and why He forgives us and loves us no matter how much we sin–non one knows. But because He does and because He sent His Son to suffer and die for us so that we (including me) can spend Eternity in Heaven, He is deserving of all our thanks and praise. We are either going to spend Eternity in Heaven or Hell. Eternity is a long time, choose wisely.
shalom2U,
More miracles!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7uPLx8PM8c
Medicine has a science as well as an art dimension. Ask any doctor.
I would really hope thats the other way around.
well, accounting has an "art" to it to. So what?
The Catholic Church doesn't care what secular experts have to say, and why should it? Its a religion, not a science.
Actually, the matter of the miracle is "investigated" by non-catholic physicians and scientists so that an objective truth is found. Once it is concluded that the healing cannot be medically or scientifically explained, it is then "reviewed" by a group of cardinals and bishops.
Miacles are by definition a suspension of the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology. How can science verify a miracle? "Catholic scientist" is a contradiction of terms.
@ EvoDevo Catholic scientist is NOT a contradiction in terms. Look up "Georges Lemaître". He was an astronomer at the University of Louvain. You may have heard of his "hypothesis of the primordial atom, better known as the Big Bang Theory. He was also a Roman Catholic priest.
The article said:
"Medical and theological experts have credited John Paul II with the healing of a nun whose order prayed to him after he died in 2005. Sister Marie-Simon-Pierre says she was cured of Parkinson's disease.
A team of cardinals and bishops will examine the reputed miracle this month and pass their verdict to the pope."
It is good that they are using a team of obviously unbiased Catholics, to decide this.
I would be very skeptical if they used secular doctors and experts.
If there is a miracle here, with no other explanation than the supernatural, It would save souls from hell, if this was revealed.
You would think the Catholic Church would want secular confirmation of this miracle.
Cheers!
Are you Catholic? Are you Christian? If not, what do you care. If you are an Atheist, would all the proof in the world matter? John Paul II did much good in this world.
@el_incr Why are you reading and commenting on this site if you have such problems with Catholicism? Is being a total PITA your divine mandate? Or does the devil make you do it?
@Anglican as an atheist, I can tell you yes, all the proof in the world would do it! That's what people don't understand about atheism and science – we don't mind being proven wrong, all we want is the truth. We just don't rely on "faith" do get it.
el_incr – you reject CHRIST'S CHURCH you blasphemer. continue worshiping your money grubbing redneck "pastor" (delusional fraud, criminal, and/or heretic) while trying to convince yourself that you're not.
@ el_incr : Ah-ha ! So that's why certain 'Christians' behave as if God wants them to treat others like crap – they are pre-forgiven for all the wrongs they'll ever do ! Explains soooo much.
I doubt that if you look up "Christian" in the dictionary, you'll find YOUR definition in there. You will find something along the lines of "follower of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth". That's what John Paul II was.
el_incr,
You are either retarded or just plain stupid, First off I was was born and raised Roman Catholic from a second generation American-Sicilian family, and I don't know who or what you have been reading about Catholicism but you my friend need to read some more Catholics are Christian, and some can say the very strictest types of Christians. Now that being said I don't think John Paul the second should receive a saint hood after all he knew of the molestations in the church and did nothing when a holy man turns a blind eye to sin it is the same as sinning himself.
I agree, but further. How can man decide if someone is a saint? And why is it only catholics make such a big thing about and believe in them? It's an insider club thing, so no, they won't want outside influence, especially if it can prove their "sainthood" system wrong. And this pope allowed and hushed the acts of pedophilism under his watch, which washes any claim to sainthood.
Yes, Catholics are Christian (for what that's worth). Sometime back in the 1950s or 60s (maybe before that... not sure) Protestants started calling themselves 'Christians' because 'Protestant' has a negative connotation, and it inferred that they were simply rebellious Catholics.
I know of an instance where an individual was claimed to have been healed after prayers of intercession were made to someone the church had called "Blessed"... then, using the recovery as proof of a "miracle", that person was canonized. Two months later the cancer came back and killed the guy.
Guess they should've waited to see how that turned out, right?
Anyhow, nothing like false hope I suppose.
Sainthood? Ha! There is nothing saintly about protecting pedophiles. Rather than becoming a saint he should be excommunicated post mortum.
Ugh. People like you make me angry. If you are such a disbeliever or so completely anti-Catholic, then please just shut your mouth and don't say anything. Your bigotry is stale. JPII was a great man by ANYONE's standards – even prominent non-Christians and Jews praised him as a great bridge builder. But obviously you're much more intelligent and all-knowing than those people.
Religion. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLz
IntegralReality
I know of an instance where an individual was claimed to have been healed after prayers of intercession were made to someone the church had called "Blessed"... then, using the recovery as proof of a "miracle", that person was canonized. Two months later the cancer came back and killed the guy.
Guess they should've waited to see how that turned out, right?
Anyhow, nothing like false hope I suppose.
****
What is the name of the Saint and what is the name of individual you are talking about?
So someone prayed to him after he was dead.. This gets weirder all the time.. How many pedophiles did he hide from authorities ? Hmmm Sainthood.. wow..
Sainthood for John Paul II? Why don't we call him Supreme God of the Gods? What had he done beside waving his hands in the air for years? What miracles were done by him that were witnessed? Call whatever you want! It's just like a joke! Who falls for this crap?
It seems like one would have to know some intricate details of the nun's illness and "cure" and whether the medical representatives are valid or not. The statement from the article that "Medical ... experts have credited John Paul II with the healing of a nun..." seems false. Would any medical expert really claim that a dead Pope has cured a nun's disease from beyond the grave? Highly unlikely. And if they did, I would certainly question their worth as a scientist to have made such an extraordinary claim.
Seems on par with the story of the nun who saw Mary in Wisconsin or wherever it was. The methodology must be similar.