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Treat Muslim Brotherhood with caution, Blair urges
February 8th, 2011
07:44 AM ET

Treat Muslim Brotherhood with caution, Blair urges

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN

London (CNN) - Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood needs to be treated with caution, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair warned Monday.

"It's not an extremist group in a way that we have seen in other countries; on the other hand, we shouldn't be complacent about it either," he said.

"It is founded on a different view of the relationship between religion and public policy than most people in secular societies would want," he argued.

"Religion is an important part of our society, its voice should be heard, but I wouldn't want to live in even a democratic theocracy," the former prime minister said at the office of his Tony Blair Faith Foundation, which works to promote multifaith understanding.

Read the full story here about Blair's comments on the Muslim Brotherhood.

- Newsdesk editor, The CNN Wire

Filed under: Africa • Belief • Church and state • Egypt • Europe • United Kingdom

soundoff (45 Responses)
  1. this

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    August 30, 2012 at 3:46 am |
  2. removal jobs

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    August 26, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
  3. Muneef

    Wrong message to UK Muslims
    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/letters/letters-city-of-the-future-that-never-was-2209688.html

    February 11, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
  4. David Johnson

    WoW! I didn't see these post 'till today. I really need to check back more often.

    @Let Us Prey

    You can respond to my posts or not. But my posts will continue.

    You seem very defensive about your desert hobgoblin. You attempt to set everyone straight, who disparages Him.

    You said to GSA: "I have a different perspective on religion."

    Yep, me to. I believe all religion is wrong.

    You also said: "So you and your grandfather should take off your turbans when you fly..."

    Wasn't that meant to slam GSA? Or is there a meaning there that I am not seeing?

    You are just another religious fanatic, who hates to be reminded that the god from the book is evil and a myth.

    He would rival any troll in any other work of fiction.

    Cheers!

    February 11, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ David Johnson

      Not mean.. simply a reference from an earlier (rather lengthy) conversation GSA and I had regarding Sikh's being resistant to having their tubans examined in airport security lines. GSA's position was rather adamant that turbans should be exempt. Needless to say, he was in the minority of opinions offered in that string.

      "You seem very defensive about your desert hobgoblin. You attempt to set everyone straight, who disparages Him."

      I've tried to get through to you in many different conversations... I'm sorry, Dave, but I think the definition of insanity applies here... "repeated action in anticipation of a different outcome." Oh, what the hell... one more time -

      I'm not particularly religious... I may go to church a dozen times a year... primarily for my wife, who is a practicing Christian. I like the closeness, peace and serenity it offers us for 75 minutes. I don't read a bible – I probably never will. As I told you many months ago, over the years I dabbled in Eastern religions, transcendentalism, and Unitarianism. I hardly fit the bill of a 'defender of the faith.' So exactly what's my beef with you?

      Your refusal to recognize people's -right- to believe, or not, without persecution. Read my posts to Peace2All in this string and maybe it will help you to understand. Or not. Quite honestly, Dave, I'm beyond caring if you do or don't. I've tried ten ways from.. well, Sunday, to get you to understand the dichotomies of science vrs faith, political action vrs. democratic representation, substantiation vrs. belief, empiricism vrs. need... and it's like talking to a D4 bulldozer in full push. You refuse to admit, acknowledge or even allow for views other than your own. If you're simply trolling, consider yourself successful. If you're not, then I feel even sorrier for you.

      Tell you what; take some time and really try to understand the larger definition of 'fundamental.' Beyond the trite insult value, there's more to it than you might realize.

      February 11, 2011 at 6:15 pm |
  5. Muneef

    Can Blair say any thing about those who have the oil and the money?

    http://www.ijtihad.org/SaudiArabiaReforms.htm

    February 11, 2011 at 2:34 pm |
  6. GSA

    @LetUs Prey – Actually I criticize my own as well but nice try. DJ is funny, that's that. A joke is a joke, like I said you are here to share opinions and people get heated or lash out or just troll on these blogs. If you can't deal with it or it hurts your feelings then don't post here. Also it is within my right to express myself, whether on matters of religion or not. Don't like my opinion then don't respond or read them, very simple. The fact is that most people are happy with their respective faiths and if someone else puts their faith down they are usually pretty confident and believe deeply so a post on a blog will not shake them in any way, not true for you. Also you talk about equality but you have only responded to those that say anything against christianity yet when someone bashes any other religion you don't post anything, something fishy there. I have posted many times, for and against all religions and have made jokes and have had jokes and insults agianst me, life goes on and I don't cry about it.

    February 10, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • Let Us Prey

      I'm sorry we're not connecting... besides a continent, we have a difference in cultures (and likely a generation) between us.
      We just feel differently about what form respect should take.

      I have a different perspective on the relevance of religion that you do. That's all. Nothing to cry about, but rather simply acknowledge. And no, GSA, my feelings are consistent about Sikhism, Islam, or any other religion – until such time as it becomes a threat to my safety.

      So you and your grandfather should take off your turbans when you fly...

      February 10, 2011 at 8:46 pm |
  7. Muneef

    Picks of sura Al-Tawba verses;  
    Al-Tawba sura 09:
    And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (30) They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (31) Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. (32) He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. (33) O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, (34) On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard. (35). 

    The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another. They enjoin the wrong, and they forbid the right, and they withhold their hands (from spending for the cause of Allah). They forget Allah, so He hath forgotten them. Lo! the hypocrites, they are the transgressors. (67) Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment. (68) .

    And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. (71) Allah promiseth to the believers, men and women, Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide – blessed dwellings in Gardens of Eden. And – greater (far)! – acceptance from Allah. That is the supreme triumph. (72) .

    There hath come unto you a messenger, (one) of yourselves, unto whom aught that ye are overburdened is grievous, full of concern for you, for the believers full of pity, merciful. (128) Now, if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne. (129).

    February 9, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
  8. GSA

    @LetUsPrey – David Johnson is hilarious, nuff said.
    When I said to treat any religious organization with caution I meant everyone, even Sikhs. I don't exempt my own when it comes to being open, honest and fair. I also don't cry and complain when someone says something againts religion, don't take it personal and if you can't do that then stay off the blog.

    February 9, 2011 at 10:09 am |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ GSA

      I guess we can add immature to you being hypocritical. Read my post to Peace2All today at 4:16. It's interesting that you can identify yourself with a specific faith while concurrently castigate and criticize others of (a different... could it be that simple...?) faith. Are you just a bigot, GSA? Why is it acceptable to adhere to the principles of the Sikh religion, yet deny believers of other faiths the same lati-tude? Does your religion make more sense? Is it the 'right' religion? Are others the 'wrong' religions?

      Or maybe you just favor the cultural identi-ty that Sikhism affords while allowing yourself the 'privilege' of staying just a little – outside – of the ranks of the devout that your religion promotes. Here's the point >>> Religion -is- personal. Religion is indefensible. Religion is intangible. And for one person of any faith, in this case you, to endorse or participate in rancor directed against another religion is...

      Hypocritical and immature.

      Be your own man, GSA. Don't follow in the footsteps of fools. And just for the record, it's because of folks like you that I'm bothering at all with this blog. So, thanks for that.

      February 9, 2011 at 7:34 pm |
  9. (B)iraq Hussein Osama

    Treat Blair with Caution, Muslim Brotherhood Urges

    February 9, 2011 at 12:29 am |
  10. Muneef

    Blair says this;
    "It is founded on a different view of the relationship between religion and public policy than most people in secular societies would want," he argued...

    I say don't America have extreme Christians that has different view of the relationship between religion and public policy than most people in secular societies would want !? We hear many stories about those on TV. But are they effecting the country? They just live their life the way they wanted it to be...!?

    February 8, 2011 at 7:43 pm |
  11. HeavenSent

    Hello CNN mods. The messages I wrote to David and Reality do need to be posted ... Or do you just allow the propaganda they spew get posted?

    February 8, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
  12. Muneef

    Al-Anaam sura 06:
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath forbidden to you: that ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury – We provide for you and for them – and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern. (151) And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better, till he reach maturity. Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember. (152) And (He commandeth you, saying): This is My straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This hath He ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil). (153).

    Al-Anaam sura 06:
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do. (159) Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill-deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. (160) Say: Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the community of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater. (161) Say: Lo! my worship and my sacrifice and my living and my dying are for Allah, Lord of the Worlds. (162) He hath no partner. This am I commanded, and I am first of those who surrender (unto Him). (163) Say: Shall I seek another than Allah for Lord, when He is Lord of all things? Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return and He will tell you that wherein ye differed. (164) He it is Who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo! Thy Lord is swift in prosecution, and Lo! He verily is Forgiving, Merciful. (165).

    February 8, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • Reality

      Muneef,

      Once again we come to save you and your fellow Muslims:

      Saving Muslims is quite easy!!!
      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:
      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
      The First Five of the 77 Branches:
      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

      Analogous programs to save Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or Pagans are available at no charge.

      February 8, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • Muneef

      Al-Maeda sura 05: 
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve Chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road. (12) And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. (13) And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork. (14) O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture, (15) Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path. (16) They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (17) The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. (18) O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval (of cessation) of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any warner. Now hath a messenger of cheer and a warner come unto you. Allah is Able to do all things. (19)..

      Al-Maeda sura 05:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (44) And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. (45) And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah – a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). (46) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (47) And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48) So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49) Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50).

      Al-Maeda
      The Jews say: Allah's hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them, and We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters. (64) If only the People of the Scripture would believe and ward off (evil), surely We should remit their sins from them and surely We should bring them into Gardens of Delight. (65) If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct. (66) O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. (67) Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. (68) Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians – Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right – there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (69).

      Al-Maeda sura 05:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (72) They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (73) Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (75) Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (76).

      Al-Maeda sura 05:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed. (90) Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done? (91) Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and beware! But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the message). (92) There shall be no sin (imputed) unto those who believe and do good works for what they may have eaten (in the past). So be mindful for your duty (to Allah), and do good works; and again; be mindful your duty, and believe; and once again: be mindful your duty, and do right, Allah loveth the good. (93).

      February 8, 2011 at 6:56 pm |
    • Reality

      Once again it obvious the Muneef has a hard time coming to grips with the flaws of Islam. Hopefully, other Muslims are not suffering from the Three B Syndrome aka Bred, Born and Brainwashed in your religion, to the extent that Muneef is.

      February 9, 2011 at 12:07 am |
  13. Anglican

    Dave. I believe in the God revealed in Christ Jesus. He spent most of His earthly time with sin-ners and le-pers and ho-okers and the poor. He went straight to the ugly and outcast like me. I know you do not believe. It is what I believe. Peace

    February 8, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Anglican,
      You are not ugly at all…. Your beauty shines forth from within you… right out through your finger tips onto your key board, and onto my computer screen and up into my eyes where it softens my desire to strike out at those who do not have eyes to see or ears to hear! Thank you!

      February 8, 2011 at 3:04 pm |
    • Reality

      CatholicMom,

      And I opened my eyes and what did I find?

      origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

      "The New Torah For Modern Minds

      Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument."

      February 8, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • W247

      "Probably" is a real ambiguous term to use.

      How can they create a "new Torah" that discounts the Pentateuch? And how do they discount the historical findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls or of the writings of the widely accepted historian Flavius Josephus (see Antiquities of the Jews). I have a hard time understanding how a group of people can dismiss a major body of their history, and then try to revise it to fit their current life better.

      Interesting.

      February 8, 2011 at 4:14 pm |
    • Magic

      W247,

      Let me tell you something about Flavius Josephus. He was a first century historian, who reported on events of the time. He made mention of a group of people who followed the teachings of a man named Jesus, who they claimed was the Messiah. Josephus was a religious man - a Jew. Don't you think that if he had proof that this Jesus was the Messiah, the very son of "God", he would have hied himself thither? He did not. He remained a Jew until his death around 100 C.E.

      February 8, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • Magic

      W247,

      "I have a hard time understanding how a group of people can dismiss a major body of their history, and then try to revise it to fit their current life better."

      Oh, like the early church councils and even a British king, who decided which old timey books to include in their 'Bible' and which writings not to include, and which translations and interpretations to use?

      February 8, 2011 at 6:56 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Anglican

      Hey -Anglican...

      You Said: "Dave. I believe in the God revealed in Christ Jesus. He spent most of His earthly time with sin-ners and le-pers and ho-okers and the poor. He went straight to the ugly and outcast like me. I know you do not believe. It is what I believe. Peace"

      I would respectfully suggest that it in relationship to 'your beliefs' and 'your faith' that it really doesn't matter what -David, myself, and others may agree or disagree with you in respect to your 'beliefs,' yes...?

      The important point is... that if your beliefs help you to get through the day with more love, joy, peace, kindness, giving, empathy...then, that is really what is one of the important things for you to remember.

      Peace...

      February 9, 2011 at 1:30 am |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ Peace

      "... in respect to your 'beliefs..."

      Interesting choice of word(s). Your few words here have successfully identified a very important issue; maybe, at least as far as I'm concerned, the core issue. There are two connotations of respect here; 'regarding' vrs. 'acknowledging'. Tell me, Peace, do you think that atheists can respect a person without respecting their choice to believe? Restated, if you disdain or disbelieve someone's belief structure, does this reduce the believer's value or worth as an individual or their ability to contribute to society?

      Does having faith (not talking about extremist actions... just a belief in -xyz-), devalue a person so as to make ridicule acceptable? Dave and some others here (yourself excluded) seem to have adopted this position which, to any 'faithful' person, is objectionable and distasteful. The concept of free speech vrs. respectful speech has been belabored here before, that's not my point. I'm more concerned how people react to personal attack or condemnation of something so obviously indefensible and personal.

      You say "... it really doesn't matter what David, myself, and others may agree or disagree with you in respect to your 'beliefs... " I say it does matter. It matters for anyone to slam another with ridicule and then run behind a cover of alleged inconsequentiality. Anglican initially said " I know you do not believe. It is what I believe," to which you responded "that is really what is one of the important things for you to remember."

      I think your observation is a bit misdirected. Why defend a position you have to mitigate?

      February 9, 2011 at 4:16 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Let Us Prey

      Hey L.U.P–

      I'm in between meetings today, and will get back to you and your posts/questions as I can. Interesting... post and questions posed by you.

      I believe some clarification is in order by me...us...and in relationship to what you brought up.

      Talk with ya' soon pal...

      Thanks...

      Peace...

      February 9, 2011 at 2:10 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Let Us Prey

      Hey L.U.P...!

      You Said: -Peace... "Your few words here have successfully identified a very important issue; maybe, at least as far as I'm concerned, the core issue."

      I totally agree with you. We are on the same page on this. In my opinion as well, i too, believe this to be a 'very' important and core issue. This may not be really important to others, some yes, some no, however, it definitely seems to be very important to us(you and I). So, first I want to compliment you for asking some insightful questions in response to my post for a civil discussion.

      You asked some great questions, and I am happy to have this discussion with you as I believe it to be critical here to attempt to create more mutual respect for each other...not you and I, as I believe we have it, but for everyone else on this blog.

      One caveat-- You may now this already, but, just in case you don't, I am 'not' an atheist. So, with that frame to view my post, here we go:

      You Said: "Restated, if you disdain or disbelieve someone's belief structure, does this reduce the believer's value or worth as an individual or their ability to contribute to society?"

      I believe that regardless of a 'believers' belief structure or world-view, that does 'not' ...reduce the believers value or worth as an individual or their ability to contribute as valued human being. As my believe is that we all have 'intrinsic' value.

      Now, there are obvious exceptions, as we would have to take each person and analyze. For instance...I know a number of wonderful Muslim's, that practice Islam. They are wonderful people. I may not agree with their world-view, however I respect them and their right to practice their faith. Now, if another Muslim, because of their faith, *interprets* the Qur'an and the Haddith.... and they decide they want to kill me and my family, then we have a problem. The same goes for Christians. I know and get along and have friends that are evangelical Christians, and they are wonderful people. Again, I may not agree with their world-view, but it doesn't matter. I make no 'value' judgement. Now, if some Christians, decide they want to kill me because I don't believe in Jesus as the son of God, then again we have a problem.

      As you know, 'actions' flow from a persons(everyone's) world-view. You basically can't escape it. I look at 'actions' of people in general.... believer, non-believers, atheists, etc...

      I know of some wonderful atheists. However, if there beliefs cause them to attempt to try and kill me, because... i'm not totally polarized on their side. Again... same problem.

      You Said: "Does having faith (not talking about extremist actions... just a belief in -xyz-), devalue a person so as to make ridicule acceptable?"

      Again, 'no' ... As for this blog, and in my *opinion* is that 'ridiculing' anyone for their beliefs is unacceptable. Questioning them for beliefs, which goes for the atheists too, I consider fine. There is however a fine line, as you know between teasing someone for something funny that they may have said. As you well know, I very often laugh at your humor. You often crack me up, as you have a great sense of humor. And... sometimes, in my opinion, I have noticed you get a bit personal with the ridiculing, but... I also am guilty as charged. When I first started blogging here back in May/June...? I was very militant and often harsh with people that wanted to see me 'burn in hell' and they were going to 'laugh' about it. Made me mad. Didn't seem like a respectful and kind thing to say. But, as you well know, since then, I have written and responded to over probably close to 5,000 posts give or take, and as you have noticed yourself, I have made it a point to change myself, and learn and be even more respectful. I want to be a better person.

      However, now as you have seen, I am getting many hard-core believer compliments nowadays from people, as they respect my respectful and sincere desire to learn and connect. And, as also you have seen, I at times get attacked by the hard-core atheists. And, the 'believers' because of their recognition of my sincere respect for them, feel compelled to defend me. I take that as a compliment, that I am on the right track of attempting to build a better and more civil discourse. And, as I have always said, as far as the the 'believers' I tell them... you very well 'may' be right. I am humble in my full-on statement that I don't even attempt to claim, to know if their is a God... and if so, what is it. To me I just don't go there. And, I believe...can't find your post now with your back and forth with -David Johnson, that in my opinion, we very much share the same of similar world-view...i.e... pointless arguments about asking for proof of God vs. Science and Logic, etc... It is, to me, and I believe to you... and truly pointless argument. I love learning about all of the different religions, as you stated they are 'tools' and if one looks, one can find some wonderful suggestions to live one's life by. And... I also love science, philosophy, psychology and quantum theory.

      You Said: "Dave and some others here (yourself excluded) seem to have adopted this position which, to any 'faithful' person, is objectionable and distasteful."

      First... thank you for 'excluding' me from that group, as that is obviously, 'not' my way to go on the attack of people of faith, or atheists. To me this is not a 'fight.'

      You Said: "The concept of free speech vrs. respectful speech has been belabored here before, that's not my point. I'm more concerned how people react to personal attack or condemnation of something so obviously indefensible and personal."

      Again, we are in agreement. Ad Hominem attacks, etc... to me, do nothing to make things better. And, as discussed before, using them in topics such as this belief blog, where no one can actually and literally *prove* their points one way or another, is again, to me anyway, in my opinion fruitless.

      You Said: "You say "... it really doesn't matter what David, myself, and others may agree or disagree with you in respect to your 'beliefs... " I say it does matter. It matters for anyone to slam another with ridicule and then run behind a cover of alleged inconsequentiality. Anglican initially said " I know you do not believe. It is what I believe," to which you responded "that is really what is one of the important things for you to remember."

      I agree... my intention was to let -Anglican know that no matter 'who' is ridiculing or responding in disagreement, be it -David, Me( and I should have said... You, CatholicMom, Steve the real one, etc...)

      Stick to your faith, whether people agree with you or not. And, if someone not only disagrees with you...and is ridiculing you.... If possible, pay no attention. I 'was' trying to give -Anglican some support.

      You Said: "I think your observation is a bit misdirected. Why defend a position you have to mitigate?"

      Hopefully, this very long post may have cleared up your last sentence...somewhat...? If you want to continue in this dialogue, I am more than willing as I go back to the beginning in that ... i believe we are in agreement here.

      Curious to hear your response... Thanks -Let Us Prey for the opening up a topic that should have been talked about in depth, in my opinion, long ago.

      Good night pal...

      Peace...

      February 10, 2011 at 5:14 am |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ Peace

      "I was very militant and often harsh with people"

      Although I reflect on our old 'Troll and Hitler' exchanges with fondness, it's encouraging to see though the past months how many 'belief blog regulars, ' including you and I, have developed varying degrees of tolerance, or at least civility for views other than their own. This blog can be an interesting microcosm of religious att-itudes that run the gamut from empathy and consideration to outright acrimony and paranoia.

      But I'm quickly arriving at another conclusion. Considering that, as I've said before, my faith is personal... maybe I should practice what I ... advocate for myself. Initially I was reluctant to participate in religious discussions at all, but the overbearing atheist attacks on believers just really got my goat. I tried for months to open the discussion that you and I are having here to the 'hard core' atheists, but Bob, NL, David, Q, HAA, et.al. won't have any part of it. Magnum opus postings are, as you're well aware, time consuming and exhaustive – in addition to being mostly futile. The old saying about topics of religion and politics spoiling any good conversation seem to hold true... I ask myself – why bother – to what end or return am I spending and hour or two a day on this blog? Lately I feel like my only purpose here is to serve as the padding on the walls of a figurative rubber room...

      But lately you've been a bright point, even considering the 'old pizza roll days,' and, although it really irks me to have to admit it (teeth clenched)... I've learned from you.

      Be safe, warm and happy, Peace.
      Regards.

      February 10, 2011 at 8:33 pm |
  14. GSA

    How about we treat any organization with political/economic power with caution.
    @DavidJohnson – some people just seem to make it too easy for you don't they? Hehe.

    February 8, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ GSA

      How about we start in on Sikhs? Oh, that's right... you don't care. Even though you're Sikh. Just let it roll off you because you're so self-secure in your faith. But encourage some other nits like DJ to insult other faiths. What does that make you? Minion to a blog bully? A hypocrite? A phony?

      Tell us again that you have a 'spiritual belief', GSA. Tell us that you're a Sikh that doesn't care if any religion is disparaged or its believers demeaned. Help us make sense of your nonsense.

      February 8, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
  15. David Johnson

    @Anglican

    But, you wouldn't be able to offer bread to your god. But, a physically perfect person can.

    So, isn't that discrimination?

    Why would an all good, all knowing, all powerful god, look at a person's outward appearance and not at their soul?

    Our outer appearance deteriorates with the years. Is a 22 year old woman more appealing to god than a 90 year old woman?

    Could a woman bent with age offer bread to your god?

    This hatred of the handicapped is disgusting. All the more so, considering He could make the person whole, but does not.

    How can you worship such a god? He is horrid.

    Cheers!

    February 8, 2011 at 12:59 pm |
    • W247

      same reply as before:
      And isn't it wonderful that through the His son, Jesus, we are all made perfect in His sight. Why don't you read the New Testament as well and get an understanding of what you are trying to pick a fight over?

      Are you truly seeking an answer or just looking to cause a fight?

      February 8, 2011 at 2:28 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      David Johnson,

      I almost decided to not respond to your ‘fundies’ word usage as it is disrespectful and I wonder what your Mother would think of you if she ever learned of your behavior. But I decided to ‘look at the source’ and realize that you cannot see out beyond your arms length from your body; sorry for your affliction.

      We are made whole by Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with limbs. It has everything to do with wholeness of heart, fullness of love, and the beauty of the soul made perfect in Him.

      February 8, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • Let Us Prey

      @ CM

      I've stopped trying to have a logical exchange with David. I got fed up a couple of stories ago. From now on I'm just going to treat him as what he is. He's not worth the energy to take him seriously.

      February 8, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • Muneef

      An intrusion in peace.

      Excuse me but have not understood the issue that speaks about Offering Bread to God...!?
      For us as Muslims the (bread to God) means the Charity and Poor Due...(Sadakh and Zakat) in money or in food rations or used clothing to the poor...and nothing more than that..even nothing is being paid to Mosques or any religion head or heads.

      While for some other religions as understand impose some amount to each follower to pay to Their religions heads and that is what the following Sura speaks of;

      Al-Tawba sura 09:
      O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, (34) On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard. (35). 

      February 10, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      What are you referring to here, Muneef, with your question….’Excuse me but have not understood the issue that speaks about Offering Bread to God...!?’…?

      February 11, 2011 at 10:51 am |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.
      DJ.was who mentioned it first which I was asking to understand what was it?

      February 12, 2011 at 6:58 am |
    • AWMessenger

      For those who understand, lest we forget:

      "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." – Matthew 7:6

      It is now our responsibility to fight with swine. Let them play in the muck and the mire with themselves.

      February 15, 2011 at 1:25 pm |
    • AWMessenger

      OOPS! meant to say; It is NOT our responsibility to fight with swine. Let them play in the muck and the mire with themselves.

      February 15, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
  16. David Johnson

    Quote from Tony Blair:
    "Religion is an important part of our society, its voice should be heard, but I wouldn't want to live in even a democratic theocracy"

    Right on Tony! I don't want to live in theocracy either. Don't care if is Muslim or Christian.

    Question for the fundies: Why do humans with defects or handicaps creep god out?

    Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever [he be] of thy seed in their generations that hath [any] blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. – Leviticus 21:17

    Do you think that is the reason god never gives an amputee their limb back? God is just too disgusted at imperfection?

    God is a pis_ser, isn't he?

    Cheers!

    February 8, 2011 at 11:22 am |
    • Anglican

      I have walked on this earth for 50 years on two deformed and fused feet. God loves me. Peace be with you.

      February 8, 2011 at 11:30 am |
    • W247

      And isn't it wonderful that through the His son, Jesus, we are all made perfect in His sight. Why don't you read the New Testament as well and get an understanding of what you are trying to pick a fight over?

      February 8, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
  17. Methusalem

    At last, some honest words from Mr. Blair!

    February 8, 2011 at 9:58 am |
  18. Reality

    The koranic-driven Brotherhood's links to terror

    •The Brotherhood is widely believed to have had a "secret apparatus" responsible for attacks in Egypt, including the assassination of Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha, the Egyptian Prime Minister in 1948[94] and the president of Egypt in 1981[95]

    •Rachel Aspden's article, The Rise of the Brotherhood states that The Muslim Brotherhood currently advocates suicide bombing attacks on civilians to fight Zionism, and its self-admitted Palestinian wing Hamas indiscriminately targets Jews as such, both civilians and the military, in Israel.[96] In its Charter, Hamas cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and prophesizes the ultimate complete annihilation of Jewry.[97]

    •Newsweek journalists Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff reported connections between al-Qaeda and Brotherhood figures Mamoun Darkazanli and Youssef Nada.[98]

    •A similar article in the Financial Times reported financial links between 74-year-old Swiss Muslim convert, and businessman Ahmed Huber, and members of the Muslim Brotherhood, notably Youssef Nada, Ali Ghaleb Himmat. According to the U.S. government, Al Taqwa "has long acted as financial advisers to al-Qaeda." Huber is noted in Europe for his links with alleged neo-Nazi and other far right elements.[99][100] He is reported to have "confirmed" having "had contact with associates of Osama bin Laden at an Islamic conference in Beirut," whom he called `very discreet, well-educated, very intelligent people.`[99]

    •Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi was an influential lobbyist and founder and head of the Brotherhood-linked American Muslim Council before being convicted and sentenced to 23 years in prison for conspiracy to murder Saudi Prince Abdullah at the behest of Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi.[101

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/muslim-brotherhood#ixzz1DN7YgIXs

    February 8, 2011 at 8:03 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.