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February 11th, 2011
07:55 AM ET
Kentucky Senate passes bill to teach Bible classes in public schoolsFrom CNN Louisville, Kentucky affiliate WLKY Frankfort, Kentucky - Bible classes could be taught in Kentucky public schools under a bill that's made it halfway through Kentucky's legislature. State Senator Joe Bowen wants Kentucky public school students to have an opportunity to take classes about the Bible. "No doubt about it, the most important book ever written and obviously, it's had so much influence on our society and all of western civilization," Bowen said. Last year, former State Senator David Boswell introduced the same bill. It passed the Senate, but died in the house. Bowen defeated Boswell last November. Read the full story from CNN Louisville, Kentucky affiliate WLKY.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I think schools should be able to have a class that goes into any and all religions deeply. From both sides, to allow students to make informed decisions. This means not only the Bible, but also Torah and the Qur’an (at least).
Brian.. no problem with that but as long as it taught in a religious context.. not scientific one. Also, most students are already indoctrinated at birth by their parents beliefs. I would think that there would be a lot of opposition to learning other belief systems by the parents.
I think it's awesome if a school can do this. It may not be for all schools, but if that is what students ELECT to learn then why not. Coming from a school where the bible club had to hide out on a dark balcony where with an advisor that couldn't share his beliefs even though he agreed with us I believe this is an awesome opportunity. And as time goes if they get the personal to teach other religious studies so be it.
Since when have we decided to let students ELECT what to learn? I bet if you took a poll of high school students in Kentucky you would find more would ELECT to have a class on Football than on the Bible. This is not the students asking for this class, this is the state asking for it.
If you had to hide your bible class then you should have called the ACLU. They defend the right to have bible clubs openly.
MarkinFL – It's a shame the ACLU doesn't advertise this free exercise role more prominently. This failure seems to funnel folks over to the Alliance Defense Fund and Thomas Moore Law Center. While these latter groups might be on the correct side of free exercise, they're almost invariably on the wrong side of establishment.
"Coming from a school where the bible club had to hide out on a dark balcony where with an advisor that couldn't share his beliefs even though he agreed with us I believe this is an awesome opportunity."
Go have the meeting at a church and there wouldn't be any such silly restrictions.
> While not "official" The Mayflower Compact provided a strong start (foundation) to this country! Why not official? Too much about God!
Umm, explain to me how you have concluded that the mayflower compact was the foundation for our current const-tution. Because from what I can see, many of it's core concepts did not make it over.
why are the GOP NOT focused on creating jobs? rather i see them going on about abortion, religion and saving their wall street and health insurance buddies. WHERE IS THE LEGISLATION THAT WILL CREATE JOBS? i am not voting for them in 2012.
Why, jay zee,
because they want to come across as one of them. I truly doubt that they give a rat's azz about abortion, SSM, etc. They are simply giving the appearance of doing so. The GOP sold the RR down the river before and apparently, the RR has yet to figure that out again. It's only a matter of time.
I really don't want to see the Bible class taught in public school. They say it's going to be one thing but my feelings say it will be about how the bible is so right and use it to proselytize students. That's what I trust the RR to do. What is in their best interest. They don't care about anyone with the exception of who they can convert nor do they care about the religious beliefs of any other person. It's all about them. They're the ones constantly crying how the U.S. is a "Christian" nation and how they want it to be a theocracy based off of "their" beliefs.
Bob.
> You seem to all be well educated people yet funny how you seem to forget THIS country is a representative republic (as per the US Const-ittion)!
You seem to forget that no law may be enacted that is against the consti-tution of the United States. Even if the majority of the population feels that it's a good idea. The seperation of church and state is there for a reason. To prevent anyone from applying their own subjective beliefs onto others who may or may not share them.
The reality of the situation is that this will never pass legal muster and will end up on the floor. A better question is why are tax dollars being spent on something obviously flawed.
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Do you absolutely know what the intent of the class is ? Is it a lit class? A history class? I thought the article said it was a Social Studies class. You and those like you saw the word "BIBLE" and went off as what is typical! Is social studies being taught now? If so, how is this a waste of tax funds. Since you are Canadian, your major concern is? I don't know. Let me re-phrase.. Since you are an athesist, your major concern is? That I can answer. Your hatred of ANYTHING Godly! Please tell me when the last time a social studies class was against the Const-itution! SOCIAL STUDIES CLASS....that is in the article!
If it's a social studies class, why not make it part of a Comparative Religions class. Why only talk about only one religious text? What would your response be if a high school decided to offer a social studies elective on the Koran? Would you say the same thing? I strongly support offering Comparative Religions – it helps us understand more about the societies around the world, however, picking one religion's text is not the way to go.
@ Steve the real one: Hello again my friend! Hope you are well. Rather than a Social Studies class, how about a classification of "religious mythology"? My Daughter can take a class on Greek and Roman Mythology at her High School. I really do not see a difference. I think that religious texts can be used in a historical context, as long as interpretation is not part of the lesson.
LivinginVA
If it's a social studies class, why not make it part of a Comparative Religions class. Why only talk about only one religious text? What would your response be if a high school decided to offer a social studies elective on the Koran? Would you say the same thing? I strongly support offering Comparative Religions – it helps us understand more about the societies around the world, however, picking one religion's text is not the way to go.
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I have had comparative religions courses I have no issue with that! I did not became Hindu, Muslim or anything else because of a class or two! I am a Christian! What is interesting is as soon as someone says Bible, Jesus, or Christian, or any variation Atheisist goes crazy. Why? As far as I know, no plans are final, no dates, no texts, no curriculum developed. Why the opposition? I would love to hear your answer!
I believe I answered that – becuase it is singling out one religion. I come from a Christian background and am not an atheist. I have 2 uncles and a sister that are Christian ministers – they also oppose this. When government and religion become entangled, religion has something to lose as well.
Hello Eric G,
I have not seen you posting lately. I am well and hope you are as well. I will object to the term "Mythology". Why? Christianity is not my religion! It is or rather Christ is my life! You do not see the difference as you are not a Christian! It is just not a Sunday thing! I strive to ALWAYS to apply Christian principles to my life EVERYDAY. Sometimes I fail but I seek forgiveness and move on! I'm not offended, I just wanted you to know the basis of my objection to the term Mythology! See my response to LivinginVA! The courts may decide to toss it out but let the courts decide!
I will say to ALL Christians who are parents:
Church and Sunday SCHOOL is NOT enough and do not depend on any school. Teach YOUR kids the Word of God at HOME! The best instruction....YOUR example!
LivinginVA
I believe I answered that – becuase it is singling out one religion. I come from a Christian background and am not an atheist. I have 2 uncles and a sister that are Christian ministers – they also oppose this. When government and religion become entangled, religion has something to lose as well.
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So you know what the final plans are? Social Studies as per the article. NO ONE said this will be a "religious" experience. Is it even possible to read the Bible and not have a "religious" experience? Yep! Atheists do it all the time! My Dad is a Pastor, I am a minister as well! I will say the best place to learn the word of God is at HOME! To supplement what is learned at church. Where we differ is I am not willing to tell Kentucky or any other state they cannot do this! If the courts say no, let the courts say no! Everything else, as far as I am concerned (including my posts) is simply noise!
"Social Studies as per the article. NO ONE said this will be a "religious" experience."
You are still putting one religious text and ONE VERSION of said religious text on a higher level than others. What if they decided to use a version of the Bible that include the Apocrypha? Or decided that they would just use the Old Testament?
LivinginVA
"Social Studies as per the article. NO ONE said this will be a "religious" experience."
You are still putting one religious text and ONE VERSION of said religious text on a higher level than others. What if they decided to use a version of the Bible that include the Apocrypha? Or decided that they would just use the Old Testament?
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If this is a social studies course with the Bible as the text, why would they study the Qu'ran?. Let that happen in the social studies class with the Qu"ran as the text, class! !
I am quite satisfied letting Kentucky and the courts make that decision! With little info, the blog exploded! Not surprised when athesist complain, I am when Christians do!
I think the gist of what 'Steve the real one' is saying is correct. If it's taught as literature or social studies then any school in the country can add a class like this. The article even states, "even though Bowen admits there's nothing preventing Kentucky public schools from teaching bible classes now." The waste in this is that they are pushing a bill for something they can already do.
"If it's taught as literature or social studies then any school in the country can add a class like this."
Try getting the Qu'ran taught in an American public school to see just how 'fair' it is to teach the Bible. If we want kids to get broad-spectrum religious instruction, that's one thing. This is blatant promotion of Christianity in the schools.
Well said Steve, as always! God Bless you my brother!
Next time your pants catch on fire....try prayer. That would be a great test of the right wing religious beliefs. Good luck with that.
I'm a democrat. That blows you belief that all Christians are republicans.
there is so much wrong with this it makes me sick
If the Bible is taught, make it part of a mythology class so students will understand it in its proper context. It has not more meaning than any of the other ancient mythologies. And it certainly has no more claim to accurate historicity that any of the other mythologies.
from a former pastor in a major christian denomination who is now a humanist who believes in a strict separation of church and state
I shudder at all your responses knowing your educational curriculum was sorely lacking.
How sad for all of you.
A broad spectrum theology class could broaden thinking and assist in the understanding of others beliefs. I would find it interesting to hear what the cirriculum would be and who would define the cirriculum.
But that is specifically NOT what it is being billed as.
Of course they won't teach the Holy Quran or the Old Testament of the Holy Bible. They will probably restrict it to the KJV of the New Testament. Nor will they include the writings of Buddha or Hindu philosophy or anything else.
When I think of the kid I was, the kids I hung out with, and the kids I know today, I can imagine how this class is going to go – bored kids making fun of the curriculum while texting about what new band they are listening to or what their work schedule is or when Egypt is going to get a legally elected government. When the girls read how poorly the Bible treats women, they are going to go ballistic. When the guys read they can lose a hand or eye or their lives for cheating on a test, they will freak. This attempt to indoctrinate children into a state-sponsored religion may actually backfire and send these kids running away from Christianity as fast as they can. I wonder if the KY legislators thought of that?
I'm glad you mentioned the word kid in your posting. When you mature, you'll learn that learning His wisdom is an added tool to your tool belt of life.
It will be even better when the guys learn that M@!sturb@tion is a sin. I bet not one boy will leave that class a christian!
Being a native of Ky I am embarrassed to see such a bill actually be considered much less possibly be made a law. This is exactly why I left the state years ago and will probably never return. The state needs to worry more about ensuring the youth understands the core educational requirements (reading, writing, and arithmetic) so they can achieve success in life, rather than worrying about if they understand the fairy tales in the bible or not.
Well said! I salute you!
Cheers!
Jeff,
A huge loss for Ky when you left. I'm sure that you have greatly enriched wherever you call home now, though. Live long and prosper.
The Bible is a wonderful collection of mythology detailing the prevailing cultural views of its authors (drawing upon those of neighboring and previous cultures) . It is without question the most influential text in western civilization. Kids should have the option to study it for its literary and cultural value with clear restrictions against proselytism enforced. Who knows? After having actually read it, many of the students will come to recognize its contradictory and morally reprehensible nature. The bill's sponsor has already conceded that this opportunity already existed and that this proposed legislation really does nothing. Political theater targeting evangelicals who buy the martyr complex BS that their over-whelming majority is somehow threatened.
I agree to a point, but only if the instructor was taking a critical or at least objective view. I doubt that will be the case.
Yeah, but I don't see them being willing to bill it a "Mythology" course.....
Banchara- I agree that there is no shortage of teachers who would leap at the opportunity to "save their students". The numbers indicating creationism being actively taught in science classes certainly supports this. However, given the publicity in this case, I guess I'm hoping there are enough contrarian students out there who are curious enough to sign up for this class and then hold the teachers accountable (with the help of their local ACLU chapter).
LivinginVA- Also agree. I've always preferred that a course like this be framed in a comparative religious studies or comparative literature class to provide the proper context that any magical or spiritual "truth" claims associated with the Bible are purely subjective. Still, the class as described is legal and I have a hard time imagining modern high school students assessing the veracity of a man living in a "great fish" for 3 days as anything but mythology. I understand this is likely naive.
We don't ALL believe in YOUR form of God and I do NOT appreciate it being shoved down my throat. I don't care if you are religious as long as you keep it out of OUR government and schools. Why are you so threatened by the separation of Church and State? This is NOT a Christian nation it is a FREE NATION.
Good, we don't need no more of your kind anyway. Keep YOUR athiest beliefs buried under a rock and let the rest live as they damn well please.
Why are you so scared of God. Jesus. or the things tyou don't believe in anyway?
Dinosaur.. there are no atheist beliefs.. we only agree that we have not seen evidence for god.. what else other atheists believe is their business. You belong to a "club" that tells you that in order to belong you have to believe certain things, out side of that framework you have may have called it sin, and those that do not conform to your standards are" sinners"... which is meanness to those out side of the "club", and of no value.. sorry that's the way it is. We cannot fear what does not exist.
3 WORDS: religion is stupid and a huge setback for human society....okay that's 10 words.
Mike you don't have to be religous to believe it is wrong to harm others. Being afraid of the magic man in the sky is not why I try to do the right thing. I do it because it is the right thing to do.
here here!
and just where did your "sense" of right and wrong come from? From yourself?
Jason, I'm glad the basics of His wisdom sunk in. There is more to His teachings if you search for His truth. If you insist that this is Not His teachings, think again. If you were brought up in this country and watched TV, read a book/magazine/newspaper, listened to your stereo/radio/cb, you picked up the basics of His teachings.
I know this won’t happen but I can dream… Religion of any sort should not be taught to anyone under the age of 18. I think it’s deplorable to tell a child that they will rot in hell for eternity if they don’t believe. This is nothing short of brainwashing and this is why beyond all logic religion exists today. If ones first exposure to religion is at the age of 18 believing would be quite difficult. Religion would become extinct just like the dinosaurs.
I actually have thought the same thing!
So Shawn, you would want to have all children be athiest? You would not want to present all sides and have them choose for themselves?
I see a di-ctatorship in that statement.
Shawn, you allowed me to know through your writing you haven't a clue to what Jesus' truth teaches us. I suppose you think it's OK that folks that don't believe in His truth, don't know His truth and therefore, do not apply His truth to their lives can or will cause hell in others' lives because of their lack of knowing His wisdom by just not caring or accepting one's words, beliefs, actions?!
I have mixed emotions on this one.
1) If the class was an elective, and not required, then I have no objection. It's just like sports, or band, etc.
2) If it's required, then yes, I would have an issue. I would want to know how the teachers would teach the class unbiasedly and without bringing religion in to it. If it required, there shoudl be an opt out for parents to sign, and allow the kids to learn something else.
What if a dozen kids wanted to take a Literature class and study the Koran and they found a teacher who wanted to teach it? Unless the answer to that is, "sure", I have a problem with the class, even then I have my doubts. I would FAR prefer that they just offer a Comparative Religions course.
"1) If the class was an elective, and not required, then I have no objection. It's just like sports, or band, etc."
Your tax dollars go to them whether you support them or not. Your tax dollars would be going toward religious instruction in public school.
By the tenor of the posts on this article, you'd think that 95% of Americans are Atheists. They are not. The rest of us are just too busy reading our Bibles to bother posting anything!
well 95% of us are not necessarily Christian either...so why can't there be room for everyone. (Religion's room is in the Church)
I can't stand religious fanatics. How does it feel to a part of something that is responsible for millions of deaths throughout human history??????????????
You don't have to be an athiest to oppose this class. My sister is a minister and she doesn't think the Bible should be taught in school.
@REALIST..
I couldn't say, I'm not an affiliate of the religion of "evolution" or "humanism", as were the likes of....say.....Hitler, Stalin and the other choir boys.
I'm not talking about the posts which are giving an opinion on the article. You can oppose this class and still be a Christian. I'm just talking about all the general Christian and religion bashing going on around here.
@banchara, you are right. 95% are not Christian. But over 75% are, according to latest census data.
Maybe CNN should employ Affirmative Action concepts in there posting section. Since Atheists only account for 0.06% of the population of the US (and only slightly higher world-wide), maybe they should only allow one out of every 200 posts to be generally Christian and/or religion bashing in nature.
0.06% ?
Its apparent your fantasy beliefs extend beyond your religion.
@markinFL, did you bother looking it up before attempting to belittle someone who doesn't believe the way you do?
http:// religions.pewforum. org/ reports
I see 1.6 atheist and 2.4 agnostic and .8 refusing to answer. A total of 16% consider themselves "unaffilitated".
oh, and another .4 that are New Age and .7 that are Unitaritan or other liberal faiths (neither of which necessarily believe in God).
Apologies, I mistyped. It's not 0.06%, the census record showed 0.6%, and the most recent census data (which I thought I was looking at) indicates that now that is almost doubled to 1.6%. Thank you for keeping me honest. The point is, 75% vs 1.6%. All deserve their voices to be heard, but some voices are heard more than others, creating a false perception.
True, but the same is true of conservative Christians – they tend to get more of a voice than the mainstream ones, which is part of the reason that so many people get turned off to Christianity. I come from a liberal Christian family (proud member of the Religious Left) and the voices that I hear being described as "Christian" do not describe the people I respect, admire and love.
Christfollower,
The Argument from Numbers is a logical 'Fail'.
Do you have the numbers on how many people, for example, believed 1000 years ago that the sun orbited the Earth... and that Earth was the center of the universe?
@Realist, you "can't stand religious fanatics"? Would it be safe to say that you actually harbor hatred toward them? Either way, that sounds pretty fanatical. And since you cannot be an Atheist without faith in the unknown, that sounds very similar to a religion of sorts. So you also appear fanatical about your religion. Of course I say this in jest.
Again, don't assume that everyone in opposition is an atheist! I am a theist and am opposed. There are Christians who are opposed, and atheists and agnostics and pagans and buddhists and Jews etc. etc. etc.
@Magic, no I don't and of course I understand your point. But I do know that science has advance a lot since then. Science is ever-changing and updating itself based on new information regarding how the observable universe works. That's why you can't always trust what scientists say. Their info is only as good as today's technology. The Bible however does not change, nor does it need to. Of course, the Bible doesn't try to be a science textbook, but it does indicate that the Earth is round, not flat: Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:10 talk about the circle of the Earth, and that the boundary of light and darkness around the Earth makes a circle. Only something round can do that.
Speaking of science, the latest scientific discoveries in Astronomy and MIcrobiology have uncovered some very convincing info relating to the need of a creator, or at least a designer if you will. Hubble has recently seen into space so far that for light from those stars to have now reached Earth, the universe would have to be many times as old as it has previously been stated to be (i.e. around 15-20 billion years old). That is so long that planets should be cold on the inside by now, and long past the lifetimes of most of the stars in the observable universe. And we now know that the most simple single cell is so complex that it is compared to the city of Los Angeles, and if it is missing any part, it would die without being able to reproduce. So it would have to have come into existence all at once like that or it would have died off very quickly. Imagine that.
Even with these facts at hand, many would rather make up theories so implausible and unprovable that it takes a great deal of faith to believe them. How is that different than someone who puts their faith in a creator? It comes down to a matter of the heart, not the head. There is a creator, and that Creator has chosen to reveal Himself through Jesus Christ, as predicted by prophecy and as confirmed by miracles witnessed by hundreds and in many cases thousands, all recorded in the both the Bible and secular, extra-biblical texts. Come to Him in faith and be saved from death and enter into eternal life starting right now. God bless you.
Oh, so of the .6% of atheists out there, we just happen to be dominating this comment area? Get real. There are WAY more atheists and agnostics out there than you could ever imagine. Many don't speak out about their beliefs because of fear of persecution from lovely fanatics like yourself. And of the people who claim to be christians... ha. I bet you at least half of them are posing HARD and the other half is thoroughly deluded. If you do not follow every verse of the bible, word for word, then you are not a real christian.
christflower.. you are born athiest and have to be told the myth or you would never know it. I stil contend that a lot of so called christians , deep down, do not believe in any god but play the part because religions work best when they intiminate. It is easier to be quiet than suffer the indiginites of ridicule from others. your own understanding of the world and the way it works.. ie evolution.. it testimony to the fact that the last thing US schools need is more time trying to make sense of the supernatural.
EvolvedDNA,
"I stil contend that a lot of so called christians , deep down, do not believe in any god but play the part..."
Yes, I checked the [ ]Christian box for years, just because I was too superst!tious and fearful of exploding on the spot from "God's" wrath to do otherwise.
Something..ah yes... spontaneous human combustion.. very common phenom!!
Christfollower, it is exhausting to switch from a spiritual mindset back to the carnal in order to type a reply to any of the non-believers. I'll be staying off this blog for a while since it's tipped in their favor that their postings get posted and most of ours don't.
heavensent." a spiritual mindset and then switching to carnal."..what a childish at-itude. You may turn feral if god is not looking over your shoulder but I have not, and most atheists have not either. Just because we do not believe in your god does not make us any better or worse than you. As far as the postings there could be several reasons.. you may have some words that look odd to the system, or maybe you have been posting to much, .. I had several kicked back because of that and several in "moderation" the word ent-itie can cause problems... that's why I have broken it up..anyway it may be the issue who knows.
February 13, 2011 at 10:21 pm | Report abuse |
HeavenSent,
You have been advised over and over and over again by several different posters about reasons why your posts are not showing up. I'm afraid that your paranoia shows us something about your comprehension skills and about your general coping mechanisms in life.
EvolvedDNA, it is an opposite ways of living life. Spiritually or carnally. Spiritually, I wouldn't write any of you but are taught we are to spread His truth, especially to those that know little or nothing about His truth. In order to explain His truth, we need to switch from a spiritual mindset to carnal when conversing with non-believers.
Something. I answered those different posters pages back. Obviously, you missed it.
Heavensent..I am not sure what you are talking about.. It sounds like some mombo jumbo that gives you a little feeling of superiority. I would say that trying to understand the world in scientific terms would be a harder for you than to think that it was created by an alien, but it not insurmountable. The word "carna"l are you talking about the S-e-x- word ? You do understand that it is necessary for procreation of the species and we are not put in the womb by god right?
Sorry the original post was put under the wrong thread..my appologies.
As long as the bible classes are voluntary – there is nothing wrong with it. Period! All religions could or should be handled in this manner. Education is education! When I was in school I was allowed to choose the classes I wanted to take. They are voluntary! My choice! Why is "my choice" being taken away from me?
it depends, if the course is on comparative religion, I would be ok with it, if it is a christian church class (which is what it will be) then it is wrong and violates the separation clause
If your choice is to learn about the bible, get yourself a copy and read it. If you like it, go to church. The reason it should not be included in public school curriculae is that it takes resources away from teaching math, science, and history (you know, stuff that can be proven, and that actually happened). Including Christian courses in public schools would also have a divisive effect on our children: those who attend such classes would be seen as separate and different from those who do not. Do we really need to provide children with more reasons to bully and ridicule each other?
You got to choose what classes you wanted to take based on what was offered. If you had wanted to take a class on the history of Wicca, I doubt you would have been able to. It is offering a course that is going to give a single religious perspective without offering similar courses for other religious texts that is the problem.
@Denizen Kate, the class is an elective in the area of literature, not the sciences. (And who said the big bang theory has been proven?)
Phil Kaiser whined: "Why is "my choice" being taken away from me?"
Why do you want to take away Kentucky atheists' choice to NOT pay for religious indoctrination with their taxes?
Thank you Phil, I'm glad someone comprehended this fact.
Heavensent..I am not sure what you are talking about.. It sounds like some mombo jumbo that gives you a little feeling of superiority. I would say that trying to understand the world in scientific terms would be a harder for you than to think that it was created by an alien, but it not insurmountable. The word "carna"l are you talking about the S-e-x- word ? You do understand that it is necessary for procreation of the species and we are not put in the womb by god right?