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February 11th, 2011
07:55 AM ET
Kentucky Senate passes bill to teach Bible classes in public schoolsFrom CNN Louisville, Kentucky affiliate WLKY Frankfort, Kentucky - Bible classes could be taught in Kentucky public schools under a bill that's made it halfway through Kentucky's legislature. State Senator Joe Bowen wants Kentucky public school students to have an opportunity to take classes about the Bible. "No doubt about it, the most important book ever written and obviously, it's had so much influence on our society and all of western civilization," Bowen said. Last year, former State Senator David Boswell introduced the same bill. It passed the Senate, but died in the house. Bowen defeated Boswell last November. Read the full story from CNN Louisville, Kentucky affiliate WLKY.
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Susan, Page 2 of 12
Hebrew word #1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)
*2). without form was translated from the Hebrew word (tohuw) that means: to lie waste, a desolation. You cannot lie waste or desolate something unless it was once in good condition and then at some later time it was destroyed.
Hebrew word #8414 tohuw (to'-hoo);
from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain: KJV– confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
*3).void is translated from a Hebrew word (bohuw) that means: an indistinguishable ruin. You cannot have a ruin unless there was at first, something to ruin.
Hebrew word #922 bohuw (bo'-hoo);
from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV– emptiness, void.
*4). darkness (choshek) as it is used here means to become dark, to be darkened. You cannot darken something that was not lit in the first place.
Hebrew word #2822 choshek (kho-shek');
from 2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: KJV– dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
*5). deep, this corresponds with the description of the destruction of the first earth age by water in 2 Peter 3:5+6 (NOT Noah's flood here.
Hebrew word #8415 tehowm (teh-home'); or tehom (teh-home');
(usually feminine) from 1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply): KJV– deep (place), depth.
*6). There is a period at the end of this sentence. The following sentence marks the beginning of the rejuvenation into this (our current day) earth age.
*7). Spirit of God = The Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God IS the Holy Spirit.
Below, we will see what Almighty God says about the way He created the world, and we see that He did not create it void and without form, but that it became like that at a later time:
Isaiah 45:18-19
to be continued ...
Page 3 of 12
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain*1, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
*1). vain = There is something remarkable here that is lost to the English reader of the Bible. In the Hebrew Manuscripts that the above verse was translated out of, the word translated into the English as vain is translated from the identical Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:1 (tohuw – #2 above), it's the same Hebrew word.
So that should explain what it is really saying when we read in Gen 1:2: "And the earth was without form [tohuw], and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
It is important to point out that the separation of Chapters, Verses, Sentences, and even the spaces between words is the work of the Scribes and the Translators. In the ancient Manuscripts, the whole page is written like one long word. The Scribes and Translators only had their interpretation of the meaning of the scripture to use as a guide, when separating Chapters, Verses, Lines, and the words.
This happens in our verse 2 above, in the middle of verse two after the period we have the sentence that marks the beginning of the rejuvenation of the world into our present earth age (the second of three): "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This rejuvenation continues on in the following verses as God creates everything as we know it in our world.
So therefore, with the truest meanings of the key defined words in the above scripture explained, we can thus take the first verse and the first half of the second verse, up to the period, and present it as such:
1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Notice the periods)
And now we will explain the verse, not retranslate it. We will describe it so that it explains not only the Hebrew words in the English language, but also the Hebrew thought into the English understanding. Therefore, it will be better understood if read as:
In the beginning of time, when that was isn't stated, God created everything in the Heavens and on the earth. Then some unknown length of time later, something catastrophic occurred that made God's Creation come to utter destruction, it became a wasted place. This destruction manifested itself among other things as a total flood. So complete was this destructive event that not only did the earth become an indistinguishable ruin, but even the sun stopped shining its light upon it, and all the earth was cast into utter darkness.
to be continued ...
Susan ... Page 2 of 12
Hebrew word #1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)
*2). without form was translated from the Hebrew word (tohuw) that means: to lie waste, a desolation. You cannot lie waste or desolate something unless it was once in good condition and then at some later time it was destroyed.
Hebrew word #8414 tohuw (to'-hoo);
from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain: KJV– confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
*3).void is translated from a Hebrew word (bohuw) that means: an indistinguishable ruin. You cannot have a ruin unless there was at first, something to ruin.
Hebrew word #922 bohuw (bo'-hoo);
from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV– emptiness, void.
*4). darkness (choshek) as it is used here means to become dark, to be darkened. You cannot darken something that was not lit in the first place.
Hebrew word #2822 choshek (kho-shek');
from 2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: KJV– dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
*5). deep, this corresponds with the description of the destruction of the first earth age by water in 2 Peter 3:5+6 (NOT Noah's flood here.
Hebrew word #8415 tehowm (teh-home'); or tehom (teh-home');
(usually feminine) from 1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply): KJV– deep (place), depth.
*6). There is a period at the end of this sentence. The following sentence marks the beginning of the rejuvenation into this (our current day) earth age.
*7). Spirit of God = The Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God IS the Holy Spirit.
Below, we will see what Almighty God says about the way He created the world, and we see that He did not create it void and without form, but that it became like that at a later time:
Isaiah 45:18-19
to be continued ...
Nancy, There are 3 earth ages. First, you need to understand the foundation of the world and that there is a time-gap in scriptures, a great flood and destruction other than and before Noah's flood; this is when the dinosaurs roamed (see scriptures in the book of Job explaining the Behemoth aka what man calls dinosaur)
Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
1 In the beginning*1 God created the heaven and the earth.*2
Embedded notes in Scripture (by #):
*1). In the beginning. It states: "In the beginning," but it doesn't say when that was. We know from archeology that this earth is billions of years old. Scientific Carbon Dating does not contradict this verse!
There is no date given in the above Scripture, so why try to affix a date? It is impossible, for there is no reference point given. However, we can pick up a date when Adam will later in the Scriptures be formed, because all his ancestor's ages are given in the Scriptures and the age that they were when they had the next child chronologically in the list. There was a reason that God saw to it that this, seemingly redundant and unimportant information, was handed down through the Millennia whereby we may simply add the numbers up together and deduct them from any certain date in secular history.
Adam's being formed is long after this verse transpires. This is a substantial point often overlooked by those whom, for whatever reasons of their own, seek to cast doubt on the Bible. It didn't say that God created the Earth when He formed Adam. So while with certainly we may date Adam, we cannot do the same with the date of the creation of the world. Why charge God and His Bible with error when the real problem is our inability to read what is written and to not read into it that which is not written?
*2). Notice that there is a period at the end of this sentence. That means that this thought is complete and the next sentence is a new thought. In reality there is unknown eons of time between this verse and the next. This is what is called time gap in scriptures, and it is recognized to occur in at least twenty-five places in the Bible.
Gen 1:2 [(2a) = 1st half of verse]
2(a). And the earth was*1 without form*2, and void*3; and darkness*4 was upon the face of the deep*5 .*6 And the Spirit of God*7 moved upon the face of the waters. [Verse 2
Embedded notes in Scripture (by #):
*1). was is the English translation of a Hebrew word (hayah) which means Became. In other words, the earth was not created without form and void, but that it became that way at some point in time after it was created.
to be continued ...
You talk about the translations from ancient Hebrew and yet, I thought there wasn't any punctuation in ancient Hebrew. How do you account for the importance of *2 without a period?
Nancy, your post ... " There is no begining and there is no end. The bible didn't mention those wonderful dinosaurs or the cavemen that we have artifacts from.because um... religion was created with written civilization and before written civilization there were other kinds of religions and before those religions there were a bunch of dinos.... so what did the dinos believe in? They probably didn't believe in anything since they luckily didn't have a human brain to make up stupid fairytales and were busy just trying to survive and be apart of the food-chain."
The Bible does mention what you questioned. I'm going to have to post this in sections, even though I posted it before
to be continued
David Johnson, forget it. This site is so bogus. It only allows non-believers to be posted. If we show you truth. They block it.
There were about 5 posts I sent you ... most are blocked.
@HeavenSent
Truly you are lame.
There are a number of words that "trigger" you post being moderated. These words can occur within words. No one is suppressing you posts. If it were atheists or agnostics, they would leave your posts. They mostly prove how ignorant believers are. You mostly cut and paste. Page after page. It is easy to get banned words.
I am going to post an older list for you I believe Reality has an updated list which he usually posts. Check what you post for these words. Stop being paranoid. It probably comes from believing a sky daddy is always watching you.
Also, if you wear a tin foil hat while you post, the atheist won't be able to get into your head. LOL
The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded "waiting for moderation" category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words.
For example, "t-it" is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution.
Then there words like "an-al" thereby flagging words like an-alysis and "c-um" flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument.
Ditto for s-ex, s-exual, ped-ophilia, You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not.
More than one web address will also activate “waiting for moderation”. Make sure the web address does not have any forbidden word or fragment.
s-ex
c-um.........as in doc-ument, accu-mulate, etc.
sp-ic........as in disp-icable (look out Sylvester the cat!)
ho-mo...whether ho-mo sapiens or ho-mose-xual, etc.
t-it.........const-itution, att-itude, ent-ities, etc.
an-al......ban-al
sh-it
fu-ck...
who-re
tw-at.....as in wristw-atch, (an unexpected one)
pr-ick
sl-ut
c-lit
va-g....as in extrava-gant, va-gina, va-grant
hor-ny
ar-se....yet "ass" is not filtered!
nip-ple
po-rn
c-ock
nig-ger
cu-nt
b-itch
ra-pe
jacka-ss...but ass is fine lol
p-is.....as in pi-stol, lapi-s, pi-ssed, etc.
There are more, so do not assume that this is complete.
-–
okay words that you might not expect to be filtered....!!!
beaver
penis
ass
crap
damn
anal
anus
sphincter
testicles
testes
pubic
boob
–c-lit
va-gina
hor-ny
ar-se
nip-ple
po-rn
David Johnson, I already copied your list (thanks for providing it to us) a month or so ago. I also copied the 50 word limit you wrote in another post. Fact is, I've already posted on other articles the same as what I tried to post on here. It was posted on the other articles, but not this. Tell me then, why is that?
David Johnson, now the Mod squad is blocking my posts again.
David Johnson ... continued from above
According to scientists at NASA's Ames Research Center the ingredients needed to form a human being can be found IN CLAY. The article said, "The Biblical scenario for the creation of life turns out to be NOT FAR OFF THE MARK." (Reader's Digest, November, 1982 p.116) No, it's "not far off the mark" – it's right on it! Scientists have laughed at the possibility of Genesis having any scientific credibility whatsoever – and yet, the more we learn, the more we find it to be SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT!
Psalm 8:8: ". . . whatsoever passeth through the PATHS OF THE SEAS." After reading Psalm 8:8, Matthew Maury, a U.S. Naval officer, set out to locate these curious "paths in the seas." He discovered the oceans have paths which flow through them. He became known as the "pathfinder of the seas". How did David (the writer of Psalms) know, over 2,000 years ago, there were "paths in the seas"? David probably never even saw an ocean! HOW DID HE KNOW?
Ecclesiastes 1:7: "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the water cycle of condensation and evaporation? The sun evaporates water from the ocean, water vapor rises and becomes clouds. This water in the clouds falls back to the earth as rain, collects in rivers, and makes its way back to the ocean. This wasn't known until Galileo in 1630! How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know this in 1000 B.C.? 2500 YEARS AHEAD OF SCIENCE!
Leviticus 15:13: "And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in RUNNING WATER." God said to wash the infected flesh in RUNNING WATER. Science didn't discover that until two men named Pasteur and Koch in the late 1800s. Doctors were washing their hands in a bowl of water and spreading the germs like wild fire. It wasn't until the invention of the microscope and the science of bacteriology that doctors started washing under RUNNING WATER. Leviticus was written around 1490 B.C. SCIENCE WAS ABOUT 3000 YEARS BEHIND! Isn't it embarrassing how science always lags about 2000 years behind that Amazing Book!
Job 38:19: "Where is THE WAY where light dwelleth?" How come Job didn't say where is THE PLACE where light dwelleth? Because light is always moving. How did Job know something in 1500 B.C. that science didn't find out until Einstein? How can the men who wrote that Amazing Book, with their limited scientific knowledge – BE SO FAR AHEAD OF SCIENCE?
Ecclesiastes 1:6: "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again ACCORDING TO HIS CIRCUITS." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the wind traveled within circuits? How did he know something that the aerologists and meteorologists are just now discovering? THINK ABOUT IT! How can these men, with their limited knowledge thousands of years ago, be so far ahead of science?
Proverbs 6:6-8: "Go to the ant. . . gathereth her food in the harvest." Life's Nature Library "The Insects" (p.163) commenting on Proverbs 6 reads, "One of the entomological puzzles of the last century concerned this observation by Solomon. There was no evidence that ants actually harvested grain. In 1871, however, a British naturalist showed that Solomon had been right after all. . ." How did Solomon know that in 1000 B.C.? How did Solomon CLEARLY, detail a scientific FACT, that was IMPOSSIBLE for him to know in 1000 B.C.?
To be continued
David Johnson,
The Bible was written thousands of years ago. And we're heading into the 21st century! We've seen man go to the moon. We've seen mankind take great strides in conquering the hidden mysteries of the universe. The Bible was written thousands of years ago by men with such limited knowledge.
With their limited knowledge, what could they possibly have known? I'
Luke 17:30: "Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the son of man is revealed. . . (vs 31) IN THAT DAY . . . (vs 34) I tell you, IN THAT NIGHT . . ." Nobody in Luke's day thought it could be day and night at the same time! They thought the earth was flat! Luke was written around 65 A.D. How did Luke know something that the scientists didn't know until the 16th century?
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH." How did Isaiah know in 700 B.C. the earth is round? The scientists of Isaiah's day thought the earth was flat. They didn't discover the earth is round until the early 1500s when Magellan sailed around the world. How did Isaiah know something over 2000 years ahead of science?
Job 26:7: ". . . and hangeth the earth upon NOTHING." During the time of Job, it was believed a god named Atlas held the earth on his shoulders! Nobody believed the earth "hangeth upon NOTHING!" Job is the oldest book in the Bible! Written over 3500 years ago! How did Job know something that was IMPOSSIBLE to know during his day?
Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." Surely, you don't take Genesis 2:7 seriously? Do you?
To be continued
@HeavenSent,
You are stretching the interpretations to fit current scientific understanding.
Luke 17:30 does not say that day and night are occuring at the same time. it would actually make more sence if the "day when the Son of Man is revealed" is an actual 24 hour day and the day and night mentioned are sequential not concurrent events.
Isaiah 40:22 A circle is not a sphere. And yes, it is my understanding that there were words that make that distinction in Hebrew. The Earth being spherical was actually known by Greek philosophers around the 6th century BCE.
Job 26:7 It may appear to be describing a free floating Earth, but doesn't verse 11 talk about the "pillars of heaven" and verse 10 talk about "compass[ing] the waters with bounds." It is difficult to surround the oceans with boundaries, especially when water is ~70% of the surface; surrounding land with water might make more sense. But it would be easy for all this to be the case on a disk shaped earth floating in a pool of water with a tent-like heaven above with the tent poles, or pillars, setting on the edge of the pool.
Genesis 2:7 What is the main difference between dust and clay? Water. The body is around 70%-80% water, but God did it without water, apparently.
David Johnson, I keep answering you, but the Mod squad on this site keep blocking my responses to your questions.
Why fuss it. According to this polll roughly 60% oppose, 40% approve. Let those who want it have it; those who don't read Kafka or something.
The Bible didn't even give a consistent story about creation. Take your pick:
– Genesis 1:25-26 “And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to
their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then
God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the
sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing
that creeps upon the earth.”
– Genesis 2:18-19 “Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone: I will make him a helper
fit for him.” So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and
brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that
was its name.”
So if "Creation provides proof that God exists! ", it looks like we have an endorsement for atheism.
"god" is not a subject, it is a matter of faith, not science. So no, students in Public Schools should not waste their time on the Bible (or Tso or Koran or Gilgamesh, or Buddah or Sikh or whatever). Religion has no place in public schools that cannot even afford to teach science, music or art etc...
I'm all for separation of church and state but I don't think it's that bad when students are allowed to have the choice of taking the class or not. I say Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and anyone else should be allowed to have a class on their religion too is there's enough call for it. Heck if enough people want an atheist class then go for it, but the only issue is when you have religious arguments erupting in your schools
They tried to build a mosque in tennessee I believe, and the construction equipment got destroyed. You think they'll allow it in school?
I feel that if a public school offers a class about God and the parents have no problem with their child taking the class it should be allowed to be taught. We live in a country where there is no significant emphasis placed on religion and our public school systems have risen to this occasion. As someone who has had their child in private school the majority of her life with one year in the "wonderful" public school system I hope that I never have to place either of my kids back into public school. Those children along with the majority of the teachers are more concerned with entertaining these kids instead of actually teaching them. There is no teaching of manners and respect among the public school system as a whole. Instead, teachers spend the day corraling the children who are so undisciplined and have no business being in a traditional classroom setting that the children who are actually there to learn are left to be taught by their peers instead of the teacher who is being paid by my tax dollars. The teachers and principals turn a blind eye to bullying and allow children to be malicious racists and as a parent who brought this to the attention of Stevens Elementary in Williamsport, PA I was completely ignored and my child was traumatized with no apology from the school system. So I will go ahead and put my children in private school and pray for all the parents who send their children to the "fine" public schools in Williamsport, PA with no moral compass, lack of discipline, and all around demonic behaviour. May God have mercy on their souls.
dimongirl..god has nothing to do with behavior.. look at the Catholic church and its abuse and ra-pe of children. It was covered up to save its own skin with no regard for the victims. In any other business the leaders would be jailed for this..but churches feel they are above the law. I was in the public system..in the UK mind you,, but we had to learn. the emphasis was on science Religion is such a negative force on humans.. it delights in telling you how bad you are and that you are a sinner.. but god loves you anyway..whoopee.. how can that have anything but a spirit crushing effect on a young mind.
It's possible that both the atheists and the believers are wrong.
Maybe a God exists who stays out of earthly matters and is much more like Jesus in the Bible than the vain, vengeful, heartless, mass-killer God that is often portrayed in the Bible.
Take God out of everything like non-believers are fervently working for ... and what do we have left? Evil, chaos, destruction, use and abuse, lying, stealing, cheating ... etc. etc. etc. Yes, let's take non-believers who have done nothing but be a thorn in everyone's productive sides throughout history, seriously. NOT!
HeavenSent,
The reality is that most non-believers support people's right to practice their religion in their homes and places of worship. Unfortunately, many of those believers don't respect other people enough to leave them alone in public.
Heaven,
Or instead of indoctrinating children with stories of a magical fairy in the sky will get you if you are not good, we teach them to love their fellow man because that is all we have. Thereby we have less scary people like you who think that the only reason to be good is out of fear.
Heavensent..the biggest problem religion has is with other religions..you are all competing for "souls" and it is very obvious that they dislike each other. Mormons/Catholics JW /Christians.. Islam..everyone,, The things you claim.. chaos, stealing cheating, Evil.etc exist now..and always have. it will not matter a fig whether people believe or not as we are all the same .. regardless.
I am an Atheist.. I hate violence, bigotry..I have a great life.. i love nature and to understand the way we fit together with in it is fantastic..the way the iron in our blood is connected to the death of ancient suns eons ago is so awesome..to say god did it is just so boring .. and incorrect.
@HeavenSent
You said: "Take God out of everything like non-believers are fervently working for"
God is already out of everything. He does not exist. Only the deluded believe otherwise.
Consider:
What would the world look like if there suddenly were no god?
Would there be huge amounts of suffering? Crime? War? Hurricanes, floods, and other disasters?
But wait! Those things happen right now, and you claim god exists...
If you can't tell the difference between god and no god, then what good is god? LOL
Keep dreaming Sparky!
Cheers!
For folks who do not read His truth or if they do/did, do not understand Him. It's amazing how little you think you know about Him.
Jesus 101 for beginners, Fear of the Lord means to start learning His truth (aka wisdom). After you study His truth, you are then able to comprehend His truth. After doing the research and comprehension, you are then able to apply it to your life ... aka adding another tool to your tool belt of life.
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:7
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Proverbs 2:5
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:7
The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
Proverbs 9:10
He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but [he that is] perverse in his ways despiseth him.
Proverbs 14:2
A wise [man] feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
Proverbs 14:16
The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom; and before honour [is] humility.
Proverbs 15:33
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.
Proverbs 16:6
The fear of the LORD [tendeth] to life: and [he that hath it] shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 19:23
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.
Job 28:28
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 111:10
There is One we must know, and He is God.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3).
Amen (which means that is true, that is that, that's the way it is folks).
Peace. I'm sure you comprehend this word.
So where's the proof? god or his emissaries show up on anymore baked goods recently?
JOregon,
Bottom line: atheists say the earth came from nothing. No proof.
You say God came from nothing. No proof.
We are back where we started.
Observer
JOregon,
"Bottom line: atheists say the earth came from nothing. No proof.
You say God came from nothing. No proof.
We are back where we started."
Exactly. The only honest position we can take is, "We don't know"... yet (or if ever). Let's keep looking, however; but in the meantime, do no harm as diligently as we can.
"The only honest position we can take is, "We don't know"... yet (or if ever). Let's keep looking, however; but in the meantime, do no harm as diligently as we can."
Yep... and don't take any wooden nickels.
google Nebular Theory. I know thinking hurts but you might learn something useful.
"No doubt about it, the most important book ever written and obviously, it's had so much influence on our society and all of western civilization,"
I guess he doesn't realise that every "biblical' concept was around for a good while before the Bible, Christianity, or Judaism. Hell, we've even done away with a lot of that books more questionable morals.
The cosmic teapot is out there somewhere too.I have faith!
Atheism is not a fact, stop lying, God is a fact proven more and more every day get over it you heathens.
"God is a fact proven more and more every day"
And the proof is ....?......Bread and fishes feeding many...or walking on water perhaps?.....don't see much of that these days.
Why ....cause it never happened .....the god of the Christians and all gods are man made myth.
I have several ministers in my family and they do NOT believe that there is proof for God. Faith requires, well, faith. God does not offer proof but requires faith.
The existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved. Neither side can supply proof. Get over it.
If God were a proven fact, we wouldn't be having this argument because we'd all agree. (except, perhaps for the lunatic fringe who believes the earth is flat...)
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.Common sense.
The universe had a beginning. Stephen Hawking can't discredit that as hard as he's trying.
.: The universe had a cause.
The cause must then at some point be an eternal power,(original cause) because any non-eternal power needs its own cause. And don't try to say the Big Bang. It had a beginning too.
Q.E.D.
Creator? Sounds like God to me
@Science: Here's the problem.
"Everything that has a beginning has a cause.Common sense."
If God exists, then God had a beginning and a cause. Common sense. So what caused God?
The law of science says everything in the physical world must come from something else. It can not come from absolute nothingness.
God is Spirit, and not subject to the laws of the physical universe.
@JOregon: Sorry, you will need to provide verifiable evidence to support your claim. You need to try harder. Making claims of knowledge without verifiable evidence is dishonest.
Eric,
It is really quite simple. To make something with physical substance you MUST have physical building blocks. It is impossible to make something physical from nothing – impossible.
Even before this was understood the bible has always said, God is Spirit. Spirit is not physical matter, it has no need to be made from anything.
You may not be able to wrap your mind around the concept but that doesn't make it untrue.
The idea that only the physical world exists is a rather closed minded concept. Sort of like the flat earth thinkers.
Eric,
I'd like to add:
Where do YOU think your physical building blocks came from?
@JOregon, "The idea that only the physical world exists is a rather closed minded concept."
Yes, almost anything is POSSIBLE. That does not make it PROBABLE. People unfamiliar with statistical concepts often are unable to make that distinction.
There is certainly no proof in any science that spirits exist. If they do, there is no proof, for instance, that God wasn't created by a MegaGod who is about to replace God for the bad job he has done.
Observer,
The idea that the dirt we stand on, and the air we breath, came from an absolute vacuum is not only not probable it is IMPOSSIBLE.
If you really are interested in statistical concepts consider “Convergent Evolution”.
Unrelated creatures with similar tools (such as the human eye and the octopus eye) “evolved” those tools completely separate from each other.
Of course living in Oregon I find it a bit comforting to know that the Duck and the Beaver must have both evolved from the Duckbill Platypus. A mammal that lays eggs, nurses its young, has a Ducks bill and a Beavers tail. Convergent evolution? Not probable.
Those are the types of proofs that should show there is a God. It is much more proof than science usually needs to promote its theories.
What is wrong with this world? Why can't our children have the choice to choose if they want to study the word of God? We had that choice! Who are we to take that away from our children? The world should be ashamed!! God is Good!!!!!
@JOregon – You are arguing from incredulity based on a readily apparent ignorance of both evolution and statistics. Please educate yourself somewhere other than ID/creationist websites before attempting to discuss science. Furthermore, the Big Bang most certainly does not assert something from nothing.
@JOregon: Your argument is logically flawed. You are making claims of absolute knowledge without verifiable evidence to support your theory. If you believe that your God created the universe and everything in it, you need to provide verifiable evidence to support this claim. You have been asked to do this twice and have not complied. This means that either you deny the demonstrative evidence provided by science, which is an argument of dishonesty, or you do not understand the demonstrative evidence provided by science, which is an argument from ignorance. Your dishonesty or ignorance aside, you still refuse to present the evidence you have to prove that your claims about your God are accurate so they can be verified. I anxiously await this evidence. Please provide it.
Brandy,
"Why can't our children have the choice to choose if they want to study the word of God?"
They can... but not in public school, at taxpayer expense.
@Observer
No one can prove a negative. No one can prove absolutely that something does not exist. I cannot "prove" Santa or the Easter Bunny does not exist. No one can.
But in life, we do decide by a preponderance of the evidence, whether something exists or not.
1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When I was 5, I believed in magic and things unseen. When I was 7, I gave up childish notions.
Childish beliefs should be abandoned by every adult, if they haven't done it earlier.
We reject Santa and the Easter Bunny, because we know that there are children who don't receive any toys for Christmas. Kids of rich parents receive more and better toys than the poor kids. Carrying all those toys and sliding down chimneys is not believable. Saying Santa is magic doesn't satisfy us.
Santa doesn't fit in with how things really are. The jolly old elf, just isn't probable.
God is like Santa. He is a fictional being. He doesn't fit in, with how things really are.
Because believers want god to be real, they use selective observation, make excuses and hold onto expectations that are very,very unlikely – Jesus has been dead for 2000+ years. He hasn't returned, in spite of predicting a 1st Century 2nd Coming. All the born again believers will float up to heaven. When we die, our souls survive to be rewarded or punished. Like Santa, you will receive more or less gifts, depending on what the elf observes. So you better watch out. You better not pout... an invisible somebody is watching you all the time. LOL
Bad things happen to good people. Bad people often live long lives in the sun.
God is all good, but there is so much suffering in the world. God did horrible things in the Old Testament. Reality, calls this "all good" attribute into question.
Prayer does not work. Jesus made promises about prayer, that you can test. So test them. Ask for anything – A new car, world peace, that Jesus would appear to you... or, move a mountain. Faith will move a mountain. You seem like a faith filled sort of guy.
When people pray, they are talking to themselves. When god starts talking to them, we start to worry. We believe it is a sign of mental illness.
There are no miracles. Miracles are just the product of coincidence and random chance. Or, deception and fraud.
Science can find no use for god. All the gaps in man's knowledge, that are filled by god, are being filled by scientific discoveries.
Evolution has dispelled the myth of creation. There is tons of evidence for Evolution. None for Creation.
If the diversity of life is owed to a god, why are there so many transitional fossils? Did god keep making prototypes 'till He got it right?
Man has the genes for a fully functional tail; Whales have the genes for making legs; Chickens have the genes for teeth.
These genes are simply not activated.
Yep, we evolved. We have genes that are vestiges from previous more primitive organisms.
If god created organisms, they would not have these vestiges.
If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there could not have been original sin. If no original sin, then all the suffering humans and animals endure, could not be because of it. If no original sin, then there is no need for a redeemer. If no redeemer, then why is there Christianity?
So Observer, there is more evidence that there is no god then is for there being a god. Your belief in god is based on faith. Faith in something does not make it true. Faith without evidence is worthless.
I claim there is no god, with the same confidence that I claim there is no Santa or Easter Bunny.
If extraordinary evidence surfaces, that Santa exists, I will embrace him. Every adult should take this stand. God is just the Santa for adults.
Cheers!
Q,
I was a science freak and an atheist when I learned about convergent evolution, evolution, and the big bang – What BANGED? Nothing?
@Brandy
You said: " The world should be ashamed!! God is Good!!!!!"
Hmmm... God is good you say?
God directly or at His insistence, murdered men, women and children including babies. Is this good? Is this moral?
God had a man believe he was going to sacrifice his son to Him. Do you know how traumatic that would be for a father and his son?
If you had the power would you do this? Would you be so insecure? Is this good? Is this moral?
There was a man who loved God. God made a bet with Satan that even if the man were tortured, his Possessions taken, and his children killed, he would still love God and never curse Him. God won the bet.
Would you do that? Would you kill a man's children for a bet? Is this good? Is this moral?
God sent a bear to kill a group of children, because they had teased one of His prophets.
Did the children deserve to die, because they teased a bald man? Is this good? Is this moral?
God allowed a man to sacrifice his daughter to Him, for giving the man a victory in battle.
Is this good? Is this moral?
God forbid anyone with a blemish from offering Him bread. Handicapped people creep god out. Is this a good god? A moral god?
God created a place He can send people to be burned for all eternity. Could an all good god do this?
If a puppy wet on the floor, would you hold it over a burner? Even for a second?
I call Jesus to the stand, to testify as to the goodness of god!
Jesus had this to say:
Matthew 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
A good god can't do evil things!
So, god could be evil or he could not exist and all the events we see, are just coincidence and random chance.
Cheers!
Eric,
Whether you can accept it, or not, the evidence is the universe.
Unless you can show how a physical universe can spring from an absolute vacuum that is the only solution available. To not teach that solution and continue to teach theories with no possibility of being true is wrong.
Science has no verifiable evidence of their creation theories.
Magic,
Why not?
Your self-identification as a science freak and (shocking) reformed one-time atheist doesn't remove your obvious ignorance of the science your trying to discuss. Had you any understanding, you'd know that selection funnels form, that similar requirements (niche, etc) produce similar pressures and that together, these forces can and do yield similar, independently derived structures. This is demonstrable in the lab and there are numerous well defined examples in nature, e.g. new world vs old world vultures. It's not only highly probable, its ultimately inevitable. Again, the "Big Bang" has never asserted a beginning from nothing. Again, you clearly don't know what you think you know...
David,
You confuse your lack of understanding to truth.
I never wanted God to be real, I was a very happy sinner.
My problem, I am a truth seeker. I found truth, and it wasn't what I really wanted – you see I loved my sins and didn't want to give them up.
When predictions about the return of Christ failed it is usually because some false prophet has claimed some kind of divine vision.
Or someone failed to understand all that the bible says.
For instance Jesus said:
Luke 21:29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
In the bible the Fig tree represents Israel (Jeremiah 24:5).
By all indications Israel was totally destroyed, the people scattered.
The Fig tree came into leaf May 14, 1948.
Since this event was not understood until after it happened any earlier predictions were flawed.
Jesus also said about signs of the very end of time:
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The Pentecostal movement began in 1901. The 20th century saw a huge surge in the popularity of signs and wonders. Such as the “Slaying in the Spirit” phenomenon made famous by Benny Hinn. This is the fire from heaven sign of Revelation 13:13.
These signs seem to point to our time now as the end. When we look at our earth we also see it is dying.
When I was young the yard was covered with wild honey bees, today virtually all honey bees are domesticated.
When I was young I spent many a summer at a lake in the high Cascades. In the summer the beaches would be covered with thousands of baby toads. Now there are none. None.
God did do horrible things in the bible, for good reason. He is serious, and when the end happens those that are proud will wish they hadn't been. Those that were destroyed in the bible were wicked in the eyes of God. His world, His rules.
There is tons of evidence for Creation. None for Evolution. None. Just because two animals share a body part does not mean they are related, check out the Duck and the Duckbill Platypus. More likely God simply used a tool that worked on both.
@JOregon – "Those that were destroyed in the bible were wicked in the eyes of God. His world, His rules." Yeah, like all those wicked infants drowned in the flood and all those wicked Amalekite infants hacked to death by Saul. You're actually defending the slaughter of children as morally justifiable, but then rationality, intellectual honesty and moral integrity have never been a creationist's strong point.
Given all that evidence for "creation", you'd think they'd win a court case or two or perhaps find some traction in industry given their superior models and evidence. Guess how many times "creation science" has convinced an impartial judge of its validity or how many for-profit companies utilize "creation science" to discover drugs, locate oil/mineral deposits, etc? Zero...
You are truly the classic example of ignorance on top of arrogance and all because your fragile, mortal ego can't accept the fact that you will someday cease to exist...
"tons of evidence for creation"?
The Bible can't make up its mind on the sequence of creation. Pick a version.
Q,
Something has to be there to BANG.
That is the great truth maker. You can have all the scientific theories you want, (usually the evidence supports creation just as well), in the end you have to have a beginning.
Do you understand, in your universe, you are making something without materials?
You are making water without Hydrogen or Oxygen.
Gotta go now my daughter needs me to help her.
@JOregon
You said: "The law of science says everything in the physical world must come from something else. It can not come from absolute nothingness."
And then you go on to declare: "God is Spirit, and not subject to the laws of the physical universe."
There is no Scientific Law that states, that something cannot come from nothing. You are probably confusing Spontaneous generation. This had to do with spontaneous generation of flies, mice etc. See work by Louis Pasteur.
This is not to be confused with abiogenesis which is the study of how biological life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes, and the method by which life on Earth arose. No god needed!
Your Argument commits what has been called, “the taxicab fallacy.”
As the nineteenth-century atheist philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer believed: Like a taxi, once you’ve arrived at your desired destination, you can't just dismiss the cab. You can’t say that everything has an explanation of its existence and then suddenly exempt god.
Even a god who is made from polyester...I mean spirit. Sorry!
You say God does not need a creator, because He is spirit. Who made that rule? That sounds like fundie speak to me. LOL
The universe may have always existed. It is just as likely as your god having always existed, no matter what He is made of. Unless of course, god never requires ironing... LOL.
There are developing theories and findings that are postulating how our universe came into being, without a god made of spirit or nylon or even if He has gossamer wings . These alternate ideas blow away the "Everything is contingent on a god" argument.
Your argument requires "faith". Faith that a god exists, who is composed of a material, that doesn't require a maker. They are cool for the choir. Not worth much for an atheist, asking for proof. Especially, since science is developing alternate, provable/falsifiable, theories.
All you have is that special feeling in your heart and a book that contains errors.
Cheers!
God is Spirit, and not subject to the laws of the physical universe.
Q,
OK one more quick point. All people, even babies are wicked.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
The reason is because when A&E sinned man became separated from God. That separation was the death of the spirit body in man. Maybe you have heard the term Spiritually dead?
When someone become born again that spirit is resurrected.
Besides if a person is one of God's this planet isn't all that great. It doesn't matter if they die. The reward is to be with God.
Now I'm late
JOregon,
A pity that you had to leave the discussion on that flat note.
You claim to ride the valiant white steed of reason and logic so far up the hill... and then you get off and shoot him.
@JOregon – Again, the Big Bang theory does not suggest that material formed out of nothing. The "something" you keep referring to did exist prior to the expansion, i.e. the singularity. No, the evidence does not support creation. Every single relevant discipline provides consistent and concordant evidence for cosmological, chemical and biological evolution. Were evolution to be false, all of science would be so flawed as to be completely useless and given our exponential technological growth, this is clearly not the case. As stated before, I certainly don't expect a rationale exchange with one who defends the slaughter of children and infants as morally justifiable. That you hold to be inerrant a text in which God first declares murder to be wrong then later specifically demands the murder of children and infants is the epitome of cognitive dissonance and moral relativism.
maybe there's not scientific proof of God, but that's what I think separates believers from non-believers is that they have faith. It's easy to believe in science, there's evidence and proof right there in front of you but it's takes a step above the rest to have the ability to believe in something that you can't prove 100% but you know it's there.
Oh boy.... Stupidity is only cute if it is benign. JOregon, you are dishonest. You lack the capacity to understand. Don't worry, evolution will select your stupidity for elimination from the gene pool.
trumpet, we all know that everyone that blocks out His wisdom are anti-social. Against society living in harmony. Against relationships, just using others for their selfish needs. Against government, always causing chaos. Against this, against that. They don't want to abide in any rules or regulations because it's all about them.
Each and every time they post, know you are talking with criminals. Hey, there's an island built in Dubai they can go live on ... I'm sure eventually, the sands will go back into the ocean, along with these creatures too.
@JOregon
You said: " When predictions about the return of Christ failed it is usually because some false prophet has claimed some kind of divine vision."
Really? But Jesus predicted His 1st Century return:
(Jesus speaking) I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” – Matthew 24:34
This controversial verse is in all three of the Olivet Discourse accounts. (These accounts are to be found in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-33).
For some time, critics of the Christian faith have argued that Jesus explicitly said here that all of the events prophesied in the Olivet Discourse, including His return, would happen before the last person living at that time died.
Jesus promised, that He would return within that generation, but He did not. Since He was wrong, He could not have been God, so the Christian faith, is based on error.
To bolster the argument, in all of the other places in the Gospels where Jesus used the term “this generation,” he was referring to people living at that time.
These guys also feel Jesus was "mistaken" LOL!
The respected Christian apologist and author, C.S. Lewis 1960 essay "The Worlds Last Night"
“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
Bertrand Russell, in his book, 'Why I Am Not A Christian',
He discredits the inspiration of the New Testament: "I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospel narrative…He certainly thought that his second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at the time. There are a great many texts that prove…He believed that his coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of his moral teaching." Russell later reasons that it would be fallacious to follow a religious leader (such as Jesus) who was mistaken on so basic a prediction as his parousia.
parousia = second coming
eschatology = •the branch of theology that is concerned with such final things as death and Last Judgment; Heaven and Hell; the ultimate destiny of humankind
Albert Schweitzer in his 19-century book, 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', summarized the problem of "Parousia delay" as follows: "The whole history of Christianity down to the present day... is based on the delay of the Parousia, the nonoccurrence of the Parousia, the abandonment of eschatology, the process and completion of the 'de-eschatologizing' of religion which has been connected therewith."
Now, you are gonna want to spin this, but that is what Jesus actually said.
You said: "The Pentecostal movement began in 1901. The 20th century saw a huge surge in the popularity of signs and wonders. Such as the “Slaying in the Spirit” phenomenon made famous by Benny Hinn. This is the fire from heaven sign of Revelation 13:13."
Benny Hinn is a charlatan. He heals no one.
Being slain in the Spirit was extremely common in early American (late eighteenth-century) Methodism, particularly at camp meetings and love feasts. Other names for the phenomenon are "falling over", "falling under the Spirit's power", "falling before the Lord", "slain under the power", "carpet time", "falling out", or "resting in the Spirit".
sources of the phenomenon can be autosuggestion, peer pressure, or a desire to experience what others have experienced Source: Wikipedia
So slain in the spirit is not new to Pentecostals.
You said: "These signs seem to point to our time now as the end. "
Since the 1st century, people of each generation have thought the signs pointed to the return of Christ. It has been 2000+ years. I think Jesus has a bad case of being dead. Recovery most unlikely. LOL
You said: "God did do horrible things in the bible, for good reason. He is serious, and when the end happens those that are proud will wish they hadn't been. Those that were destroyed in the bible were wicked in the eyes of God. His world, His rules."
What could be the "good reason" for killing children and babies and animals? Believers say god is all good. But if god were all good, He could not do horrible, evil things. Even Jesus said that.
You said: "There is tons of evidence for Creation. None for Evolution. None."
Really? Explain this:
If the diversity of life is owed to a god, why are there so many transitional fossils? Did god keep making prototypes 'till He got it right?
Man has the genes for a fully functional tail; Whales have the genes for making legs; Chickens have the genes for teeth.
These genes are simply not activated.
Yep, we evolved. We have genes that are vestiges from previous more primitive organisms. If god created all life one time, during Creation Week, these genes would not be present.
When we get goose bumps, our bodies are trying to keep warm by raising hairs that are no longer dense enough to help.
The muscles that allow us to wiggle our ears are of no use for us, but they did help some distant ancestors.
Humans also have many other useless, vestigial organs such as nip_ples and mammary glands on males (like all mammals) and the tailbone, which is just a holdover from when our primate ancestors actually had tails millions of years ago.
Human Babies Born With TAILS
Los Angeles Times
What our tails tell us
Atavistic incidents, such as humans born with tails, actually bolster the case for Darwinism.
February 15, 2007
HUMAN BABIES BORN with tails? That may sound like a headline from the Weekly World News, but it was the respected New Scientist magazine that recently published a cover story about the phenomenon of evolution "running backward."
Entertainment value aside, the article represents a new twist in the politically charged debate about evolution.
The author of "The Ancestor Within," Michael Le Page, cited the babies with tails as a likely example of atavism, a phenomenon in which ancestral traits suddenly reappear after thousands or even millions of years. Another example, one remarked on by Charles Darwin, is the appearance in some human mouths of large, ape-like canine teeth. (Stephen King, call your office.)
It's not just humans who experience these altered states. Le Page also cites the less cringe-making example of a humpback whale with leg-like appendages that was caught off Canada's Vancouver Island in 1919.
These and other throwbacks might seem to call into question the validity of evolution, which has been on something of a roll lately, with a federal judge's decision last year against a Pennsylvania school district that wanted to teach "intelligent design" and, only this week, the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to repeal guidelines that said there was "considerable scientific and public controversy" over human origins.
In fact, Le Page suggests, atavisms like tails on humans are the exceptions that prove the evolutionary rule. Atavisms are possible, he says, because genes for primitive traits haven't disappeared from the genome; they simply have been switched off.
In rare cases, they are switched back on (and then the tails are promptly snipped off). Sometimes, Le Page adds, so-called reverse evolution serves the cause of improving a species by allowing it to adapt to a changed environment.
Atavism isn't the only explanation for the reappearance of a seemingly extinct trait or body part. It's also possible that some life forms that have lost a certain trait evolve it again "from scratch," through the same mutations that produced it in the first place. After all, different species sometimes develop similar features separately – a process known as "convergent evolution."
But the existence of atavism complicates the case against evolution.
Far from undermining Darwinism, throwbacks challenge the creationist idea that every living species emerged full-blown in its present form. Atavism is impossible unless there's something to throw back to – like an ancestor with a tail that nobody wanted to snip off.
Many other species also have obvious useless, vestigial organs:
• Flightless birds such as kiwis and ostriches have vestigial wings.
• Some whales still have vestigial legs and pelvic bones, as noted above.
• Some fish which live in caves are blind but still have vestigial eyes.
• Dandelions reproduce without fertilization and basically clone themselves; altho they have the proper organs necessary for $exual reproduction, they do not use them.
Creation by a perfect god, completely fails to explain these vestigial organs on embryos, adults, and plants — which are obviously suboptimal. The Theory of Evolution explains them perfectly. If some god designed us and all life, He certainly didn't do a perfect job.
Stephen J. Gould stated it well; “Odd arrangements and funny solutions are the proof of evolution — paths that a sensible God would never tread but that a natural process, constrained by history, follows perforce.”
On Revelation:
The book of Revelation was not meant to be a future (2000+ years) prediction. It was written in a time when the Christians were being heavily persecuted. The 666 is a reference to Nero Caesar.
Do you really think the stars will fall to earth?
Revelation 6:13 – And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
The bronze age people believed the heavenly bodies were about the size as they appear in the sky. The sun and moon about the size of basketballs. The stars, very small. They had no idea, that the stars were actually "suns".
If it starts raining stars, it is going to break a lot of windshields. It is good that I have free glass.
Your arguments are poor at best. Your god does not exist.
Cheers!
David Johnson, you'd be amazed as to who's behind congregating all non-believers under the heading of science.
Christians believe in scientific facts, yet we notice how non-believers jump on every theory to turn around and bash Christians. There's years and years of non-believers bashing Jesus because of all the outrageous theories of science that just take a back seat now because they never became facts. All you trekkies use any excuse not to be civil with others in society. All anti-everything. Get a grip. The sciences, as well as everything, was developed by God. That's just His truth.
Amen.
Heavensent.. Unfortunately you are just bashing science as you feel it is proving your god inert. Science merely points to the evidence and conclusions are taken from that. If it found god existed it would be published.. no one is trying to prove god does not exist.. there is just no evidence to make the assertion that god does actually exist. You believe he does but nothing backs up your claim. Science has presented facts that appear to match the observations we make on our planet and those facts can be used to predict future events. You have to claim that god is outside of our measurable abilities because there is no other place for him/her/it. As science comes up with answers to questions it will force the god further out into the realm of unnecessary. This will not affect us in any way as it has always been the case. It may hurt a few egos but religion will hang on and continue to make lots of money. Its been a business for over 2000 years but yet to see a prophet.
Atheism doesn't set out to prove it's a fact, so lying about it doesn't even come into it! However, can you or anybody else prove COMPLETELY that god(s) exist? I don't think so!
LivinginVA
I have several ministers in my family and they do NOT believe that there is proof for God. Faith requires, well, faith. God does not offer proof but requires faith.
----------------
Romans 1:20 NIV
New International Version
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse
Creation provides proof that God exists! No offense but what do the relatives say about this?
JOregon – Really? Benny Hinn? You are really going to hold up that lying, heartless, proven fraud driven by greed, up as an example of modern miracles? Really?
@HeavenSent
You said: "The sciences, as well as everything, was developed by God. That's just His truth."
Science and the scientific method were developed by man. You can see the evolution of the scientific method. A god did not hand man this method, like the worthless 10 Commandments. Google "History of the Scientific Method"
God did not give man the cure for small pox and polio. Man developed these.
If god was responsible, why did He wait so long? Why did He let 300 to 500 million people die from Smallpox in the 20th century, before He gave us the cure? Why doesn't He give us a cure for cancer and HIV?
When science finally does conquer these diseases, will your god try to claim credit? LOL
Science looks for natural causes, while religion looks for supernatural causes. Science is based on evidence. Religion is based on faith.
Early man invented the gods, because they were afraid of death and they didn't know very much about the world around them. God was used to explain this world. What makes the rain? God makes the rain. Why does the sun cross the sky? The god(s) drive the sun across the sky. Why does the mountain rumble? God(s) is angry.
Using god to fill in the gaps in man's knowledge, is called: "God of the Gaps". Catchy huh?
It is also called the Argument From Ignorance. Fitting huh?
As man's knowledge increases, there are less and less gaps for God to hide in. There is less and less for Him to do. Good thing he has carpentry skills huh?
Man finds natural causes for what use to be believed to be supernatural. As science explains a phenomena, it moves from the supernatural column to the natural column.
An explanation by science involves hard work and analysis. We can't simply explain something mysterious by appealing to something more mysterious for which there is less evidence. Once we declare that "God did it", we are through. We have learned nothing. No cures will be found. We stagnate.
“God did it” is not an explanation. It tells no more than saying, “Santa did it.”
Believers insist on clinging to their god being responsible for the Creation of the universe.
There is no reason to suppose that science will not, one day, be able to explain everything. In fact, a theory is being worked on by Stephen Hawking and other physicists designed to be a theory of everything. It is called M Theory.
As you can see from the examples of gaps that god once filled, god was not responsible for them. Hawking and others see no reason that a god is necessary for the creation of the universe.
Science, presently, sees no need of a god. If that changes, then I will believe.
Cheers!
If the "theory" of Evilotion can be taught, which is, in fact, only a theory, then why can't the Word of God be taught. I mean they didn't find a piece of a corner of a sheet of paper and say, "wow this came from a book, that had a red cover and was 1,000 pages long". Yet the Evilotionist find a bone fragment and give us ever so lovely paintings of a whole creature. All that just from a fragment. WOW, I am not impressed. By the way, Charles Darwin was a racist and did not think all men are created equal, compared to God, who created all men equal AND died for all so that they might be saved.
trumpet, it's about time Jesus' wisdom is taught to our children again.
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:7
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Proverbs 2:5
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:7
The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
Proverbs 9:10
He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but [he that is] perverse in his ways despiseth him.
Proverbs 14:2
A wise [man] feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
Proverbs 14:16
The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom; and before honour [is] humility.
Proverbs 15:33
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.
Proverbs 16:6
The fear of the LORD [tendeth] to life: and [he that hath it] shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 19:23
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.
Job 28:28
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 111:10
There is no begining and there is no end. The bible didn't mention those wonderful dinosaurs or the cavemen that we have artifacts from.because um... religion was created with written civilization and before written civilization there were other kinds of religions and before those religions there were a bunch of dinos.... so what did the dinos believe in? They probably didn't believe in anything since they luckily didn't have a human brain to make up stupid fairytales and were busy just trying to survive and be apart of the food-chain.
A question that none of you trekkies that hide behind science can answer.
"Where did it all begin"?
Peace out.
@Tim – "...but it's takes a step above the rest to have the ability to believe in something that you can't prove 100% but you know it's there." It's definitely a step, but not above. To conflate one's faith in an unknowable as-sertion for knowledge is not a virtue. Would you consider my faith in invisible unicorns and leprechauns a "step above"?
@Despier – "...only a theory". Yep, just like gravity and the germ theory of disease. A scientific theory is the highest level of confidence obtainable in the natural sciences and is only conferred after many, many years of relentless testing without confounding evidence. Such is the case for the scientific theory of evolution. Individual fossil bones are generally not used independently to deduce a species but are placed in the context of other fossils. In this context, single bones and teeth can provide significant information. For example, famous French anatomist Georges Cuvier was able to deduce a fossil was that of a opossum based on the unique structure of teeth prior to any other evidence of opossums having ever existed in France. This conclusion was subsequently confirmed and perhaps more interesting, Cuvier was a creationist.
While all of mankind deserves respect and compas-sion regardless of the circ-umstances of their birth, the simple fact is that all men are not "created" equal. We each possess unique strengths and weaknesses. Darwin did, as did virtually every Englishmen of the time, believe non-Europeans were inferior in various ways, however, his personal views were very progressive. He strongly opposed slavery. The same could not be said for many, if not most, southern white Christians in the U.S. at the time. Regardless of what his personal views were or were not, the theory of evolution is based on physical evidence and not one person's opinions. Again, as all men and women possess a unique combination of mental and physical strengths and weaknesses, one could only conclude that God is not by any means, "creating" us all "equal". And given your theology general requires a choice for "salvation", one might also conclude that those born with profound mental handicaps are being excluded from this opportunity to be "saved".
@Observer
"Everything that has a beginning has a cause."
God didn't begin, but supposing he did, then a "Mega-God" made Him, or you have an endless loop of previous "Mega-Gods" until someone is eternal. Still a Creator.
Q.E.D.
Evolved DNA, I stated that Christians believe in scientific facts. Now you want to argue that I didn't say that and you go on to a subject that wasn't originally written?
David Johnson, I've tried to post what scriptures pertain to scientific findings of man throughout history, but CNN mod squad is picking and choosing what e-mails get posted. Therefore, my entire post is not able to be read by you or anyone else for that matter. Someday, if you search for His truth on serious Christian sites who comprehend His truth, you'll find the scriptures that were written 1000s of years ago matching perfectly what man has uncovered in all the sciences, as well as, other avenues humans take.
Christians understand His truth stands for eternity. When man uncovers in life ... what He wrote to be His truth, it is awesome.
Peace.
Heaven Sent,
Does your science in the Bible post include this:
"November 1982, Reader's Digest had an article t.itled How Life on Earth Began." ?
If so, you've got a bit of proof-reading to do to pick out the verboten letter strings in it. Not sure it's worth it, since the claims can be refuted so easily.
Of course god is a fact. Just look at all the people who speak in tongues! They can't belying or crazy it must be true since they said it was god speaking through them! If you didn't notice that was all very sarcastic (hard to relay through text).