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February 14th, 2011
10:41 AM ET

Philadelphia Catholics demand changes in the church

From CNN Philadelphia affiliate KYW:

Protesters surrounded the entrance to Basilica’s Saint Peters and Paul in Philadelphia, Sunday demanding the change they say the church is lacking.

“Let’s not risk one more day of one more child being hurt the way we were,” said one protester.

The protesters say they are upset, but not surprised, that three priests, Edward Avery, Charles Engelhardt and James Brennan, as well as a teacher, Bernard Shero, were charged with sexually assaulting and raping two young boys over a period of several years.

View Philadelphia Archbishop Justin Rigali's video responding to the charges.

Read the full story about the Philadelphia protests on KYW's website.
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Catholic Church • Pennsylvania • Sex abuse

soundoff (275 Responses)
  1. Muneef

    HotAirace.

    (http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/)

    February 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
  2. chief

    37 more priests in philly being investigated for abuse...... im thinking this holy abomination isnt what God had in mind....

    February 17, 2011 at 11:02 am |
  3. MarkinFL

    BTW, this blog has been quite illustrative as to one of the main reason Pascal's Wager is so pointless....
    Between Heavensent, Catholicmom and Muneef to name a few, it is quite clear that picking the right god is fraught with potential disaster!

    February 17, 2011 at 9:53 am |
  4. God is BS!

    Just bend over and you can save some of the children for a little longer! 🙂

    February 16, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
  5. Steve the real one

    Doc Vestibule
    A very smart man once said "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend." Some of the more vitriolic posters here should remember that one
    --------
    Doc, just because I wholeheartly disagree with you does not mean I consider you an enemy. You are NOT my enemy! None of you guys are! We are all fellow human beings! We have severe spiritual disagreement that concerns me but we are not enemies!

    February 16, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • Muneef

      Steve the real one.

      I agree with you we are here not enemies to each other although we might misunderstand or misunderstood or dispute about thoughts and beliefs but we are not enemy to each other....those who can't help but hate are ill hearted or ill livered who ought to seek spiritual help....God Bless.

      February 16, 2011 at 6:25 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Speaking only for myself, the enemy is religion! Hate the sin, love the sinner!!

      February 16, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
    • Muneef

      HotAirAce.

      Al-Araf sura 07:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Lo! my Protecting Friend is Allah Who revealeth the Scripture. He befriendeth the righteous. (196) They on whom ye call beside Him have no power to help you, nor can they help you, nor can they help themselves. (197) And if ye (Muslims) call them to the Guidance they hear not; and thou (Muhammad) seest them looking toward thee, but they see not. (198) Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant. (199) And if a slander from the devil wound thee, then seek refuge in Allah. Lo! He is Hearer, Knower. (200) Lo! those who ward off (evil), when a glamour from the devil troubleth them, they do but remember (Allah's guidance) and behold them seers! (201) Their brethren plunge them further into error and cease not. (202) And when thou bringest not a verse for them they say: Why hast thou not chosen it? Say: I follow only that which is inspired in me from my Lord. This (Qur'an) is insight from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy for a people that believe. (203) And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy. (204) And do thou (O Muhammad) remember thy Lord within thyself humbly and with awe, below thy breath, at morn and evening. And be not thou of the neglectful. (205) Lo! those who are with thy Lord are not too proud to do Him service, but they praise Him and adore Him. (206).

      February 16, 2011 at 6:43 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      We should the think the way of Jesus Christ who wants no one to be lost.
      Those who have taken vows in the religious life….Priests as holy Fathers, pray their flock will be blessed with Heaven. Nuns and Sisters who devote their lives in praying for others….wish all their brothers and sisters will go to Heaven.
      Those who are married as man and wife pray that their spouse and children will be blessed with Heaven.
      And single people pray for all the world to reach Heaven.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:25 pm |
  6. Muneef

    Al-Baqara sura 02:
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement. (225).

    Al-Baqara sura 02:
    Unto Allah (belongeth) whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth; and whether ye make known what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will bring you to account for it. He will forgive whom He will and He will punish whom He will. Allah is Able to do all things. (284) The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers – We make no distinction between any of His messengers – and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. (285) Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk. (286).

    Ta-Ha sura 20:
    And faces humble themselves before the Living, the Eternal. And he who beareth (a burden of) wrongdoing is indeed a failure (on that Day). (111) And he who hath done some good works, being a believer, he feareth not injustice nor begrudging (of his wage). (112) Thus we have revealed it as a Lecture in Arabic, and have displayed therein certain threats, that peradventure they may keep from evil or that it may cause them to take heed. (113).

    Al-Room sura 30:
    Corruption doth appear on land and sea because of (the evil) which men's hands have done, that He may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return. (41) Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): Travel in the land, and see the nature of the consequence for those who were before you! Most of them were idolaters. (42) So set thy purpose resolutely for the right religion, before the inevitable day cometh from Allah. On that day mankind will be sundered- (43) Whoso disbelieveth must (then) bear the consequences of his disbelief, while those who do right make provision for themselves – (44) That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance). (45).

    Ghafir sura 40:
    The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting, (15) The day when they come forth, nothing of them being hidden from Allah. Whose is the Sovereignty this day? It is Allah's, the One, the Almighty. (16) This day is each soul requited that which it hath earned; no wrong (is done) this day. Lo! Allah is swift at reckoning. (17).

    Al-Jathiya sura 45:
    Whoso doeth right, it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong, it is against it. And afterward unto your Lord ye will be brought back. (15) And verily we gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favoured them above (all) peoples; (16) And gave them plain commandments. And they differed not until after the knowledge came unto them, through rivalry among themselves. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ. (17) And now have We set thee (O Muhammad) on a clear road of (Our) commandment; so follow it, and follow not the whims of those who know not. (18) Lo! they can avail thee naught against Allah. And lo! as for the wrong-doers, some of them are friends of others; and Allah is the Friend of those who ward off (evil). (19) This is clear indication for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy for a folk whose faith is sure. (20) Or do those who commit ill-deeds suppose that We shall make them as those who believe and do good works, the same in life and death? Bad is their judgment! (21) And Allah hath created the heavens and the earth with truth, and that every soul may be repaid what it hath earned. And they will not be wronged. (22).

    Al-Muddaththir sura 74:
    Every soul is a pledge for its own deeds; (38).

    February 16, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • Reality

      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful???

      Hmmmm???

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops killed in action, 3,481 and 924 died in non-combat98,691 – 107,707
      Iraqi civilians killed as of 11/9/2010, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,116 killed in action, 902 killed in non-combat situations as of 08/10/2010. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15) Followed by the daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings every day in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      February 16, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
    • Muneef

      These were of old back to Children of Israel, and now for the Three Abrahamic religions and faiths.   
      Al-Maeda sura 05:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. (32) The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; (33) Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (34) O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed. (35) As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom. (36) They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom. (37) As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (38) But whoso repenteth after his wrongdoing and amendeth, Lo! Allah will relent toward him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (39) Knowest thou not that unto Allah belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He will, and forgiveth whom He will. Allah is Able to do all things. (40).

      Read the verse;
      (The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified)...!
      Meaning the People of the Sabbath who disagreed to Jesus way,supposedly had him Crucified as charged for being in war with God and messengers therefore causing Corruptions in the land.....?!
      Today the same story is repeated again and this time in the name of Muhammed,the Quran,the Islam,the Muslims they Muslims are being judged as corruptors and being treated by the existing islamphobia;
      (strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.) Arabs and Muslims were expelled from their lands starting with Palestinians and on till today by conflicts and wars..

      February 16, 2011 at 6:34 pm |
  7. Doc Vestibule

    There are so many folk (*ahem* HeavenSent*) who are certain that their God, their church and their interpretation of their holy book is the One Truth... what unmitigated arrogance!
    Who is to say that Angus, Belenos, Brigid, dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Thuno, Tir, Weyland, Woden, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Black Shuck, Herne, Jack in the Green, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fu.kurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac, Viracoc.ha, or Zaramama aren't true gods?
    How can the Tanakh, Talmud, Midrash, New Testament, Quran, Sunnah, Nahjul Balagha, Avesta, Vedas, Upanisahds, Bhagavad Gita, Puranas, Tantras, Sutras, Vachanas, Adi Granth, Purvas, Samayasara, Niyamasara, Pravacanasara, and Pancastikaya; Anupreksa; Samadhishataka of Pujyapada; Tattvarthasutra of Umasvati, Tattvarthasutra, Pali Tripitaka, Jataka,, Visuddimagga, Tripitaka, Lotus Sutra, Garland Sutra, Analects; the Great Learning; the Doctrine of the Mean; the Mencius, Tao Te Ching, Chuang-tzu, Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, K-oki, Ofudesaki, Mikagura-uta, Michi-no-Shiori, Johrei, Goseigen, Netarean Shower of Holy Doctrines, Chun Boo Kyung, Kitab-i-Iqan, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, or Revelation X be dismissed as Holy Books since they all claim to be The Truth?
    If you're a Bible adherent, how do you know whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, oriental Orthodox, As.syrian, Byzantine, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Anabaptism, Brethren, Methodist, Pietism, Apostolic, Pentocostal, Charismatic, African Initiated, United, Quakers, Couthcotti.tism, Millerism, British-Isrealism, Latter Day Saints, Mennonite, 7th day Adventism, Kelleyism, Co.oneyism, Shakers, Methernitha, Strigolniki, Yehowism, Christadelphians, Christian Science, doukhobors, Iglesia ni Cristo, Makuya, Molokans, Subbotniks, Ebionism, Martinism, Rosicrucians, Rastafarianism, Santo Daime, or Umbanda is the REAL interpretation of your God's words?
    If the One True Deity, shaper of The Universe, wishes their words to be transmitted and adhered to, they should have been a bit less ambiguous. Expecting people to select The Truth out of limitless possibilities on faith alone seems a sloppy way to run things especially if the punishment for a wrong choice is eternal torment.

    February 16, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • Bob.

      Willful ignorance of what they don't believe?

      February 16, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
    • salmos8318

      Eternal torment as in what mainstream supposedly Christian churches teach as hell... is a lie and dishonors the God of the Bible. Would you punish your child for 10 seconds over a live flame?... Unthinkable! So, how do you think that makes Jehovah God feel when people claim he'll be punishing people for eternity in some supposed fiery place of torment? It's not only utter nonsense but unthinkable! Now there's some truth for ya. If you're sincere in searching for truth (like you seem to indicate with all the references you post)... you need look no further than Jesus words... "by their fruits you will recognize them"... as in.. what "the group of truth seekers/practicers" are doing with their entire lives on a daily basis. You shouldn't have to look so far since these people... who are in every nation/tribe/tongue... are going door-to-door teaching about the incoming Kingdom of God... the one that will eliminate Satan and his demons and all who willingly submit to his designs. Only the meek will survive.

      February 16, 2011 at 1:28 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Doc,

      You have placed a lot of thought into your question (unlike Bob's smug answer). I can see why it would confuse you as a athiest! I really do. Can I fully answer you? Nope! What I can say is this. Jehovah God stated what He stated. No other "god" paid the price for my sins! Not a one but Jehovah! No other "god" forgave my sins and called me His son no one but Jehovah! No other 'god' has invited in into His presence both here on earth and in heaven, no one but Jehovah! No other "god" provides that hope . No one but Jehovah! That is what I and many like me believe! Honestly I can see why there is confusion! No other "god' has invited me into a relationship and fellowship with him. No one but Jehovah!

      February 16, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • Magic

      Steve the real one,

      "No other "god' has invited me into a relationship and fellowship with him."

      I can only offer the advice from Christians that I have received over and over. You must open your heart to Khnum, and really beg him to reveal himself to you.

      February 16, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      @salmos8318
      Eternal torment as in what mainstream supposedly Christian churches teach as hell... is a lie and dishonors the God of the Bible
      ------
      Jesus Himself told the story of Lazarus and the rich man in the book of Luke! Jesus describes the rich man's torment! True we don't want to think about hell but since Jesus taught it, and calling it a lie and denying its existance places you in direct opposition to scripture. A very dangerous place to be! Read the accounts in Revelation especially the judgement of those who rejected God's grace! That is my suggestion to you!

      February 16, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Bob.

      Steve clearly misses the point. The point is Steve, that if all these other faiths were held to be true at one time because of someone's faith, it's clear that faith is able to make mistakes. If faith is able to make mistakes, then your faith may be wrong. If your faith might be wrong, you have to validate it somehow using something other then faith.

      That's the point.

      February 16, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Magic
      "No other "god' has invited me into a relationship and fellowship with him."
      I can only offer the advice from Christians that I have received over and over. You must open your heart to Khnum, and really beg him to reveal himself to you.
      -------
      Not a joke Magic!

      February 16, 2011 at 1:50 pm |
    • Maybe

      Steve the real one,

      "Not a joke Magic!"

      It was not meant as one. So, is that the preferred response that I should use when Christians advise me thus?

      February 16, 2011 at 1:58 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      No so Bob. I get the point. Just read what I wrote to Doc. I understand why there is confusion! Everybody is stating they have the truth. Again, how many of these "gods" offered up His son as a sacrifice for sins? No one! How many of these other rose from the dead? No one! My faith is correct and I will go to my grave in it! You are always looking for 'evidence" that Jesus walked upon this earth. When will you seek that same "evidence" that venus or diana or one of the others that Doc mentioned walked on this earth? Again, I understand the confusion! I do! Yet that does not erase nor dilute my faith in Christ one bit. I had to come to that place of belief. It was not automatic! But I still came for myself! The same applies to you and everyone else!

      February 16, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Maybe
      It was not meant as one. So, is that the preferred response that I should use when Christians advise me thus?
      --------
      I really cannot answer for what others advise you. I don't even know what others have advised you. Excuse me but I have no clue as to what a Khnum is. I do know Jehovah, I know Jesus . My advise is to seek Christ!

      February 16, 2011 at 2:29 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Steve The Real One
      There are other Gods who have returned from the dead such as Osiris, Baal, Asclepius, Achilles, and Memnon to name a few.
      Justin Martyr argued: “when we say … Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propose nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you consider sons of Zeus.” (1 Apol. 21).

      February 16, 2011 at 2:36 pm |
    • Magic

      Steve,

      "Khnum" was just one god from Doc's list, picked at random.

      There are quite a few other resurrected-from-the-dead gods, including:

      Horus c. 3000 BCE
      Osiris c. 3000 BCE
      Attis of Phrygia c.1400 BCE
      Krishna c. 1400 BCE (possibly as early as 5771 BCE)
      Mithra of Persia c. 600 BCE
      Dionysus c. 186 BCE

      I know that you are sincere and I do wish you well, but it is possible that you are not fully informed.

      February 16, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Doc,

      Since you are addressing me, I will speak for me! The Bible (yes, the Bible) states the Jesus is the first born of the dead, meaning those who trust in Him will rise as well. The argument you guys use against Christianity is the very one I use against those other "gods", wher is the proof! Folks have dug up structures and drawings but statutes and drawing do not make something God! I just know is this we all have to choose our sides! There are but two sides to this battle. The Lord's side and the side of the prince of darkness (the devil). That is it! Just two. I have made my choice! I see your quote but (1 Apol. 21). is not considered scripture. Did I answer your question or statement? Probably not! The nice thing about this is I don't have all the answers but My God does! All I can do is share what I have! That is what I am doing now! You know where I stand Doc, we have talked before. Nothing has changed! Last thing, the Apostle Paul saw the arisen Christ as well as hundreds of other eyewitnesses. Who saw those folks you mentioned?

      February 16, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Magic,

      Not fully informed? Very correct and I am not ashamed to admit that. I don't know all there is to know about the Holy Bible! I cannot and will never fully understand the God of my faith, nor am I fully informed about false "gods". Magic let me sum it up this way. When you have what is real, you toss out the counterfeit! I do appreciate you believing I am sincere in my Faith though. I am almost 50 and still have much to learn! My attention is NOT on false religions and false gods! Understand the more you know the real, the more the contrast between what is real and what is not! Thanks for wishing me well. I wish you well on your journey to discover truth also. p.s. truth has a name...Jesus!

      February 16, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Steve the Real One
      I've no doubt that you deeply feel a personal relationship with your God. I appreciate that you sincerely share the truth as you see it, and that you generally do it in a non-confrontational way. Regardless of how I personally feel about faith, I recognize that it can be a source of great strength and solace. I believe that everyone should question their presuppositions and try to figure out what is programming and indoctrination and how it affects their approach to life.
      The list of deities, holy books and religions I posted is an attempt to put some perspective on just how many different ideologies there are and that every one of them has had devout believers.

      A very smart man once said "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend."
      Some of the more vitriolic posters here should remember that one. 😉

      February 16, 2011 at 3:15 pm |
    • Bob.

      > I get the point (paraphrasing)

      No, you really, really don't. As demonstrated below.

      > Again, how many of these "gods" offered up His son as a sacrifice for sins? No one! How many of these other rose from the dead? No one! My faith is correct and I will go to my grave in it

      How many Gods took action that specifically fits with what your faith is? 1. How many Gods that were written about that did miraculous things? Almost all of them. Hell, some of them made regular people into Gods, a feat far more impressive then simply "rising from the dead".

      If other God's actions are written about and wrong, how do you know your bible isn't written about and wrong? How do you know it's not a fabrication. Again, we're back to the same point.

      PS: Don't you think it's dangerous to accept anything without critical evaulation. How do you know the bible wasn't written by Satan to trick you?

      February 16, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • Bob.

      > When you have what is real, you toss out the counterfeit!

      But how do you determine what is counterfeit? How do you know?

      You have asserted to yourself that what you have is real, but you can't possibly know because you rely on faith, which has been proven to lead people to wrong conclusions.

      February 16, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • Magic

      Steve the real one,

      Doc's villain quote is quite apt.

      So is another one which I am sure you have encountered before:

      " When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

      February 16, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Magic
      Doc's villain quote is quite apt. So is another one which I am sure you have encountered before:
      " When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
      --------–
      Magic, your choice!

      February 16, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Bob.

      PS: Don't you think it's dangerous to accept anything without critical evaulation. How do you know the bible wasn't written by Satan to trick you?
      -----------
      I thought you didn't belive in Satan. Anyway that is not the point. Why would satan write a book about His ultimate defeat? That makes no since. I have faith in a God that is big enough to ensure His word endures the test of time. Reality likes to quote "johnny come latelies". Yet there are thousands upon thousands of preserved scrolls of scripture found in Israel! I believe, has trust, confidence, and faith that my God is true! That may not be enough for you but as for me and MY house...We WILL serve the Lord! It is more than enough for me! I like chatting with you guys but is really is a waste of your time and a good keyboard to keep trying to turn me around!

      February 16, 2011 at 4:17 pm |
    • Bob.

      > Magic, your choice!

      Steve, can you explain to me how an omnipotent and omniscient God who creates everything and knows how everything will work out allows you to have free will? If God creates us, imbues us with faults (cause we are not as God is) knowing what we'll do, isn't he directing us? Isn't it he who bears the responsibility of our action.

      If not, isn't that like saying "I blame the knife because when I sharpended it, it was sharp and I cut myself."?

      February 16, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
    • Bob.

      > I thought you didn't belive in Satan.

      Sigh. Is understanding that I'm talking to your frame of refrence so hard to comprehend?

      > Anyway that is not the point. Why would satan write a book about His ultimate defeat? That makes no sense.

      Or it makes perfect sense. He knew people would say "Why would Satan write about his own defeat." and then has them think that makes the bible more trustworthy.

      > I have faith in a God that is big enough to ensure His word endures the test of time.

      That doesn't make any sense. Assuming there is a God, he allowed thousands of religions to "get it wrong". Doesn't that show that God really doesn't care what we think of him/her/it?

      > Reality likes to quote "johnny come latelies". Yet there are thousands upon thousands of preserved scrolls of scripture found in Israel!

      Well, considering the bible only is about 6000 years of history and dendrochronology goes back at least 26,000 years, it is a fairly accurate statement. That's going by tree rings. If you go by other methods, 6000 years becomes more of a drop in the bucket.

      > I believe, has trust, confidence, and faith that my God is true!

      You rely on faith to make that assessment and you have been shown that faith leads people to the wrong conclusions. The fact that you don't say "well, maybe faith is not enough." is self delusion. Sorry, there's no nice way to say that.

      > That may not be enough for you but as for me and MY house...We WILL serve the Lord! It is more than enough for me!

      Again, like I said. Self delusion. You want to believe in a God, so you reject any concepts that endanger that idea.

      > I like chatting with you guys but is really is a waste of your time and a good keyboard to keep trying to turn me around!

      I agree, talking to you is like trying to reason with a brick wall. No thought, no acknowledgement, no intelligent responses. However, my goal is to have people say "Wow, Bob really thrashed him, I'm glad I'm not a die hard believer like Steve. That's way too crazy."

      You're helping me out quite a bit Steve. 😀 Same with Heaven Sent.

      February 16, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Bob.
      Steve, can you explain to me how an omnipotent and omniscient God who creates everything and knows how everything will work out allows you to have free will? If God creates us, imbues us with faults (cause we are not as God is) knowing what we'll do, isn't he directing us? Isn't it he who bears the responsibility of our action.
      ---------
      Bob,
      Would you happen to be a puppet? Somebody pulling your strings? God knows and yet he does not force you to do anything. He allows you to make decisions. What to wear what to eat, who to marry! Those are all YOUR decisions. He KNOWS yet He makes room for you to make decisons! That is free will! We bear responsibility for our decisions. Why? Because we made them. Maybe if we consult God before any life altering decisions and get His opinion, His direction, maybe we would not be making the knunckleheaded decisions we make! I am guilty sometimes as well!

      February 16, 2011 at 4:47 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      salmos8318,

      You said, ‘Eternal torment as in what mainstream supposedly Christian churches teach as hell….is a lie….’

      Is 33:11,14…..who of us can live with the everlasting flame
      Mt 25:41….depart, you accursed, into the eternal fire
      Mt 25:46…..these will go off to eternal punishment
      Lk 3:16-17….the chaff he will burn in unquenchable fire
      2Thess 1:6-9…these will pay the penalty of eternal ruin

      Were these verses removed from your Bible? Compare yours to the Douay-Rheims Bible which is free on line.

      February 16, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Bob,

      So then who is the insane one here? You KNOW I'm a brick wall! Yet you keep bashing you head over and over and over and over again. I'll gladly admit I will not budge in my faith. You don't have to understand it nor does it need to be logical or reasonable to you. Keep bashing your head Bob, I would have wondered that "headache" may have given you a clue that it is time to stop. No thought? No intelligent responses? Now that just plain hurt Bob! 🙂 Know what? Don't care! Life is too short and God is too good!

      ."

      Now I am disappointed in you Bob. You have set such a low goal for yourself! Let me help you. Wow, Bob, you really trashed me! Now with that said you have had a grand total of (including me) of ONE person who stated I have been trashed by you! When you get to 2 let me know and I'll give a call to the Guiness world records people! Look, I am saying this somewhat tongue in cheek but whether you agree, understand, or even care. I'll stake my eternal future on Christ Jesus! Not that you really care, but thanks for asking! If you are looking for a pushover, cream puff Christian, keep looking! You won't find one in me!

      Glad I can help liven your day!

      February 17, 2011 at 11:11 am |
  8. chief

    i am not going to respond to the catholics above comments specifically but .... ..... well, you belief in the catholic church says it all, you defend an organization that defends pedaphiles, you take Gods word out of context and make all kinds of pagan rituals out of it... which makes it blasphemy in my book..... you worship / pray to the dead and treat mary as if she were diety.... in those terms you are no different than the greeks with many gods.... who is man to attribute sainthood, and on top of that, making it possible because a nun prayed to a dead pope? you forget the greek and hebrew text and have subtiuted latin as if its inspired.... what a tragedy to all the sheep being led astray.... just like a buddy of mine douldnt be married catholic because he had been married before.... thank goodsness he has a lot of money, oh yeah it was annulled in 3 weeks,.... or my other buddy who was asked to pay penance at his fathers wake? you guys make me sick, btw my name is on more than 5 windows of catholic churchs in the northeast...

    February 16, 2011 at 12:15 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      chief,

      It is just like you to hit and run!

      The Communion of Saints is our family in Christ, once we are Baptized. You might even be a member however there is something that all members must be aware of and that is this Body of Christ is like a vine with Christ as the vine and we are like the branches. Once we are members of this Body we are expected to do good works because it is Christ who is working through us. Christ has much work He expects to accomplish through us. But if we are fruitless branches, the Father, who has the authority as God, will prune any branches which produce no fruit…or bad fruit…and these are the branches that will be gathered up and thrown into the fire.

      As members of this Body we can pray for each other and ask for prays from members. The Saints already in Heaven do not need our prayers because they are already in Heaven but they can pray for us and they do cheer us on! They are not the dead…our God is God of the living, not the dead.

      We treat Mary as the Mother of God because Jesus is God and she is Jesus’ Mother. Did Jesus honor Mary? Should we emulate Jesus? Jesus did great things for Mary….preserved her from sin from her conception so that He would have a perfect vessel in which to arrive to us Incarnate. Mary was full of grace….full means no room for sin. All nations will call her blessed….but not you?
      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6QkchiefrGHvU0s&w=640&h=360]

      Man does not attribute Sainthood…we only recognize that which has already been accomplished.

      Yes, I remember you telling about your name on Church windows....when I first came on these blogs. Thank you for your generosity. I wonder what happened that caused you to become disjointed from the Church…and filled with so much hate…

      February 16, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • chief

      re catholicmom...... no i dont hit and run, i actually run a couple companies.... your comment stating "who has more authority to interprest the scriptures than the catholic church" sums it all up.... it is wrong for me to respond... ( even though i am ) like a dog returns to its own vomit, so does a fool to his folly ... your delusional.....

      February 17, 2011 at 10:33 am |
  9. HeavenSent

    Well, LJ, these mod squadders have the same mindset as you and still won't let me respond to your baloney.

    February 16, 2011 at 9:50 am |
    • Reality

      • The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded "waiting for moderation" category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words. For example, "t-it" is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution. Then there are words like "an-al" thereby flagging words like an-alysis and "c-um" flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument. And there is also "r-a-pe", “a-pe” and “gra-pe”, "s-ex", and "hom-ose-xual". You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not. To be safe, I typically add hyphens in any word that said filter might judge "of-fensive".

      • More than one web address will also activate “waiting for moderation”. Make sure the web address does not have any forbidden word or fragment.

      Sum Dude routinely updates the list of forbidden words/fragments.

      Two of the most filtered words are those containing the fragments "t-it" and "c-um". To quickly check your comments for these fragments, click on "Edit" on the Tool Bar and then "Find" on the menu. Add a fragment (without hyphens) one at a time in the "Find" slot and the offending fragment will be highlighted in your comments before you hit the Post button. Hyphenate the fragment(s) and then hit Post. And remember more than one full web address will also gain a "Waiting for Moderation".

      And said moderators still have not solved the chronological placement of comments once the number of comments gets above about 100. They recently have taken to dividing the comments in batches of 50 or so, for some strange reason. Maybe they did this to solve the chronology problem only to make comment reviews beyond the tedious.

      Raison's Filter Fiber© (joking about the copyright)

      1. Here's my latest list – this seems like a good spot to set this down, as nobody's posting much on this thread.....
      --–
      bad letter combinations / words to avoid if you want to post that wonderful argument:
      Many, if not most are buried within other words, but I am not shooting for the perfect list, so use your imagination and add any words I have missed as a comment (no one has done this yet)
      – I found some but forgot to write them down. (shrugs).
      s-ex
      c-um.........as in doc-ument, accu-mulate, etc.
      sp-ic........as in disp-icable (look out Sylvester the cat!)
      ho-mo...whether ho-mo sapiens or ho-mose-xual, etc.
      t-it.........const-itution, att-itude, ent-ities, etc.
      an-al......ban-al
      sh-it
      fu-ck...
      who-re
      tw-at.....as in wristw-atch, (an unexpected one)
      pr-ick
      sl-ut
      c-lit
      va-g....as in extrava-gant, va-gina, va-grant
      hor-ny
      ar-se....yet "ass" is not filtered!
      nip-ple
      po-rn
      c-ock
      nig-ger
      cu-nt
      b-itch
      ra-pe
      jacka-ss...but ass is fine lol
      p-is.....as in pi-stol, lapi-s, pi-ssed, etc.
      o ficti-tious, repeti-tion, competi-tion.
      Sna-tch
      soft-ware
      Ja-panese
      Span-king
      hoo-ters
      There are more, so do not assume that this is complete.
      -–
      okay words that you might not expect to be filtered....!!!
      beaver
      penis
      ass
      crap
      damn
      anal
      anus
      sphincter
      testicles
      testes
      pubic
      boob
      --

      Here's a word to add to the banned list: co-co-on
      whether it's c-oc, or co-on, this is ridiculous

      February 16, 2011 at 10:50 am |
    • chief

      @reality ... thats so so funny.... and way true... some goofy midtown atlanta nerd wrote the program, and all his boyfriends monitor the site

      February 16, 2011 at 12:07 pm |
  10. Mary C

    There are any who split from the church that do believe the basics of thier religion.
    That should read:
    Thier are MANY

    February 16, 2011 at 8:05 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Mary C, thank you for your kind words in the above post. I'm writing you on this thread because it won't get lost in the mix. I too, am like you, reading the Bible on our own. Why this bothers others, is anyone's guess. I don't let it become my bother though. I know many Christians that belong to different denominations, that read His truth on their own and know that their churches sprinkle in man made practices as well as the teachings of Jesus. They attend just the same because it's community. That's why churches were built, to join others in learning/sharing His truth.

      Amen.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:30 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Mary C,

      The Bible is a Catholic Book; who has more right to interpret it than the Catholic Church? The Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles so that they could go out and do as Jesus Christ commanded them….to go out an Baptize everyone [so that they, too, can have the Holy Spirit living in them] and teach all nations what He had told them.

      We did not have the Bible until the Catholic Church chose the Holy Scripture and placed in Bible form almost 400 years after Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven. Do you know how the Church chose the inspired Scripture over the Scripture which was not inspired? She recognized Herself in the Scripture! Why do you not recognize the Church in them? We have Bible Study in our Catholic Church….why didn’t you?

      When the Church says that people are lost it is because they do not have the fullness of all the graces available to them through the Sacraments that Jesus inst!tuted; they are not just talking about people who have left the Church but those who call themselves Catholics but do not partake of all the Sacraments so needed for sanctification.

      You said this about Purgatory, ‘They believe in purgatory. Why did Jesus die for our sins, if we have to go there to "pay" for our sins? He did all that onec and for all. We will be purged at the Judgement seat of Christ, and pass thru the refining fire. to rid of any sin, and thus enter Heaven.’

      Mary, what is this ‘refining fire’ if not Purgatory? The Church gave that fire the name ‘Purgatory’ which means to purge as with fire as gold is purged to become pure.

      Do you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? The Church gave them the name…Trinity. So you accept the Trinity as a Truth of the Church? but not all? That is sad. Did you forget that Jesus Christ promised to send the Paraclete to His Apostles and to guide and guard Her against all evil until the end of time?

      So many think that the Holy Spirit is going to guide them....but away from His Church? the One He founded, the One that is the pillar and foundation of Truth; why would He do that? He said there is only ONE Truth; you cannot believe that the Holy Spirit gives each person His own Truth and have it conflict 38,000 times since Martin Luther split; the splits happened very rapidly after that….Martin Luther even anguished over what he had done but it was too late to put the cat back in the bag….as he witnessed several splits of his friends moving away from his teachings, while he was still living.

      How many now feel comfortable being their own pope?

      February 16, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
  11. Muneef

    Good night to all seem I am not in the mood and getting few friends upset,so would better retire...

    February 15, 2011 at 8:35 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Aww come on.... not upset. Just gettin' "muddy" ....

      February 15, 2011 at 8:47 pm |
    • Muneef

      Al-Baqara sura 02:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness. For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush, and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water floweth from them. And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah. Allah is not unaware of what ye do. (74) Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly? (75) And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe. But when they go apart one with another they say: Prate ye to them of that which Allah hath disclosed to you that they may contend with you before your Lord concerning it? Have ye then no sense? (76) Are they then unaware that Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim? (77) Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. (78) Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. (79).
       

      February 15, 2011 at 9:54 pm |
    • Muneef

      Wonder how many Books fall to this category mentioned in the above verses out of the many mentioned?

      February 15, 2011 at 10:09 pm |
    • Curious

      Hello Peace2All

      Actually, I did,lol. The posts are getting split between pages, what I posted on prior page, and then the rest showed up hereCurious

      I found I was referring to in my post above.

      HeavenSent

      Peace2All, your shots against Jesus' teachings will not hold water (reminds me of the scripture about springs with no water) for this postings since we are discussing the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Jesus ... even though they split from His truth (See the books of Ezra and Nehemiah).

      Amen.

      .This is the part I was speaking of

      for this postings since we are discussing the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Jesus ... even though they split from His truth (See the books of Ezra and Nehemiah).

      Its hard to follow these postings sometimes, like I said my questions were on the page before this, and became seperated from the ones I had here.

      However, I think the posts of CatholicMom and Heaven scent were sopt on to what I was asking.

      I am awaiting CatholicMoms response to Heaven Scents post here.

      HeavenSent

      CatholicMom, I was referring to "others" as any Christian that comes into their lives. When I needed guidance on any passages etc. one or more practicing Christian would appear in my life. One never knows who will come into your life after praying.

      As for the people you mention, I heard of some and not others. Why you wrote this I have no clue, I have always read the Bible on my own.

      I don't read anti-Catholic rhetoric as you put it and assume. I left the Catholic church when I was 13, was asked by my father to continue reading the Bible on my own if I wasn't satisfied with the church. Why I left was between my parents and I and it had absolutely nothing to do with the priests or anyone working for the church. So, please don't think I don't know about Catholics, because I was raised Catholic and I loved how I was introduced to Jesus.

      As far as my continuing to learn different discoveries of the Bible. I have that right CatholicMom. You need to ask yourself why you even question this.

      Peace2All...
      Hope that explains your question to me Peace2All. I enjoy reading your posts, and admire the respect you have for Christians! Thank You! Peace to you as well!@

      I was wondering what HeavenScent meant by the Catholic Church split from the truth

      Peace2All

      @Curious

      I see you re-posted (quoted) a misunderstanding by -HeavenSent in regards to a conversation we were having. Did you want to add something here...?

      Peace...

      February 16, 2011 at 7:43 am |
    • Mary C

      HeavenScent...
      We have some things in common, having read your post. I too believe that one can go directly to God by reading the bible, and recieving his word thru the Holy Spirit.
      I think most Catholics only adhere to what is allowed through the Catholic Church, in other words, what the church interpets for them through the writers of such. The Catholic Church never encouraged us to read the bible for ourselves, but use thier version of what it meant.
      I was in the church (Catholic) and had found conflicts which what they taught and what the word of God said. The same apostles wrote back then, and his word never changes.

      I have a problem also with them saying that people outside thier church, are lost. There are any who split from the church that do believe the basics of thier religion.
      For instance, they acknowledge the trinity, Jesus as the son of God, salvation and baptism, holy eucharist, even some, confession to priests, as in Episcopal.
      But to say because they don't accept the rest (like preists can't marry, or theu rest of the sacreaments of the Catholic Church) or they are lost, is not true.

      They believe in purgatory. Why did Jesus die for our sins, if we have to go there to "pay" for our sins? He did all that onec and for all.
      We will be purged at the Judgement seat of Christ, and pass thru the refining fire. to rid of any sin, and thus enter Heaven.

      Thanks for a well written post.Heaven Scent.
      Please keep spreading the truth. We need more of you.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:04 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Curious, the Catholic church incorporated many practices of man through the ages into Jesus' truth and feeds their man made practices to their followers along with the word of Jesus Christ. Jesus' truth is all that needs to be preached, not the man made rituals they slide in their churches.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:21 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Curious

      Yep, sometimes the postings can be split up now, and a bit hard to follow and find sometimes with their new archiving system per each topic.

      However, seems you have got your self back where you need to be in the conversation.

      Nice talking with you -Curious...and peace to you as well.

      Peace...

      February 16, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
  12. Mark from Middle River

    "Those deprived from marriage and from having children of their own to share their love with,having tried to share their love with children not of theirs and not married to release pressure has driven them to become having secret life that is no coming up to surface to show how much this issue is adversely effecting the trust in men or women of God?! "

    The issues are very comparable Muneef. Both are bound by what they have accepted as a religious code and shunned when they even hint to stepping outside of it.

    With all respect, allow me to bring the comparison to you. If a Priest or nun comes forward and states that they wish to be married then they must leave the cloister or priesthood. If a Jewish or Christian male and an Muslim woman meet and fall in love and wishes to marry then same type of situation occurs.

    This is what I want to hear you confirm my friend. It was easy for you to point at the Catholic faith and comment that they should change their rules. Can you then escape hypocrisy and say that a rule within Islam concerning marriage should be changed. Such as a Muslim woman should be given the same rights and freedoms as a Muslim male and be allowed to date and marry a male that is not Muslim.

    Basically, if you feel another Faith should change a part of their core beliefs then are you prepared to say that Islam should be open to changing part of its core beliefs?

    February 15, 2011 at 7:46 pm |
    • Muneef

      Still I am not convinced that the two subjects are related! Here we talk about children loosing a lot for generations due to this rule that God has not told of nor Jesus would have told of and you mention about some thing else.
      Well any way sorry if had commented when I should have kept quite about that and leave more children suffer for more generations because of simple things to be adjusted.
      Any way those above demand changes in the church but was not able to see what were their demands of change,or are they any different than what I suggested?

      February 15, 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Muneef: "Still I am not convinced that the two subjects are related! "

      Thank You. This is one of the major sticking points that some have with Muslims. To many Muslim's nothing is or can be compared to Islam. The common response is "they are not the same" and that Islam is unique to other faiths.

      Remember a few weeks ago when I took a Islamic phrase that you said that we would not be able to understand its true meaning. Remember how I came back and listed that the unique meaning was so universal that it was basically the message of the movie Rocky and countless others? So simple research I love and if its to show that we on this planet are not that far apart in our feelings and beliefs ....that's just a added bonus. 🙂

      I am not sure how or if the realism of similarities can ever be realized by one such as yourself. I would hope that one day it will come to you Muneef. Maybe I will take away from this that "the two subjects are not related" statement of yours. Same as Jews that felt that no other race has been enslaved and attempted to be wiped out and with African Americans that want all the sympathy of how our ancestors were treated in the early days of America but fail to relate to the plight of Native Americans, heck or even the Irish.

      This is just as simple as this Muneef

      ..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun** till they believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better than a Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221]

      Now in 98:1 it says "1. Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Al-Mushrikun.

      So one can interpret the Koran as saying that a "person of the Scripture" or of the book are different than a Mushrikun. It is a Mushrikun that is of idol worshiping of multiple Gods. Its enough difference that even hard-line Muslim clerics have an issue combining people of the "book" as Mushrikun.

      So, if a Muslim woman can come to her family and say that the man she loves believes in "one" God and that God is the God of Moses and Abraham..... can you deny their relationship since he believes or knows in a single God? 🙂

      February 15, 2011 at 8:46 pm |
    • Muneef

      Mark From Middle River.

      Have not seen your message when I said bye,but that was because seem I have upsetter CatholicMom unintentionally,so just had my Fajir prayers and back although I though would go to sleep a while but couldn't resist coming back to see your message. No so I wouldn't confuse things since I seem to misunderstand and be misunderstood...
      The verse you printed just meant as I said a good religious man from any of the Abrahamic faiths could be better than a Muslim who is not committed, it is as a good religious slave is better than non religious one even if fancy looking and disered..
      Have quoted several times from the Quran verses saying that there would be people of Islam,Christians,Jews++ will go to paradise while many of them will end in Hell... Which means that as long as you think of God being one and only having no partner among Mankind,among Jinn,among Angels and worship him directly and not through any medium such as idols or men of God, guess by that no longer among Moshrikoon, and if you believe that God is one and only and believe that we will be brought back to life from dust for the Judgment day then a man is no longer among AlKaffiroon...

      People of the book thought of as Moshrikoon or Kafiroon is because of Sura 09:30&31 + Sura 05:73.

      February 15, 2011 at 9:52 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Muneef,
      The Bible says that ‘who ever can accept it’ [living a celibate life] ought to. Matthew 19:12.
      Do you own a Bible?

      February 16, 2011 at 2:50 pm |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.

      Yes I do own a bible in Arabic that was given to me by a SouthAfrican preecher who tried to convert me, but been keeping it as it is unopened...

      February 17, 2011 at 12:23 pm |
  13. CatholicMom

    HeavenSent,
    Just a couple of comments…………..
    You said, ‘Once they start reading His truth (Jesus' holy spirit will guide them by sending others that are proficient in His truth to them to guide them in to His spiritual teachings).
    Who are these others that the Holy Spirit will send…..Watchmen Bible Study Group, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, Angelfire theology, or Rick Warren?...... whose words … ‘As a believer walks by the Spirit of God he will have self-control, since this is part of the fruit of the Spirit, and he will not have sinful bad habits, or addictions’….you make us believe are your words….
    Also…you said, ‘This is why he sent all of us a letter (the Bible) and told us to read it.
    Do you know that Jesus never wrote a word while He was here on earth and He never said to read the Bible because we never had the Bible until almost 400 years after Jesus ascended into Heaven. The Bible which contains the Books of the inspired Words of God, were placed together as a Book by the Catholic Church. The word ‘Bible’ was coined by Catholics.
    I know I have suggested to you in other articles that the reason your posts are rather ‘disjointed’ is because you use too many sources which conflict with each other. If you want to read anti-Catholic rhetoric, that is your right, but don’t be surprised if people never see the point you are trying to make…because basically they are different men putting a different twist to their interpretation of what Christianity is and what the Bible says….even though the Bible tells them that Scripture is not a matter of personal interpretation.

    February 15, 2011 at 5:25 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      CatholicMom, I was referring to "others" as any Christian that comes into their lives. When I needed guidance on any passages etc. one or more practicing Christian would appear in my life. One never knows who will come into your life after praying.

      As for the people you mention, I heard of some and not others. Why you wrote this I have no clue, I have always read the Bible on my own.

      I don't read anti-Catholic rhetoric as you put it and assume. I left the Catholic church when I was 13, was asked by my father to continue reading the Bible on my own if I wasn't satisfied with the church. Why I left was between my parents and I and it had absolutely nothing to do with the priests or anyone working for the church. So, please don't think I don't know about Catholics, because I was raised Catholic and I loved how I was introduced to Jesus.

      As far as my continuing to learn different discoveries of the Bible. I have that right CatholicMom. You need to ask yourself why you even question this.

      February 16, 2011 at 5:54 am |
    • CatholicMom

      HeavenSent,

      I do not question your right to continue in discovering the Bible; I do, however, have the right to speak up when I see anyone speak an error about the Catholic Church; the one spreading the untruth may not know it is a falsehood, but it does not matter….I cannot ignore it.

      I know you say you do not read anti-Catholic rhetoric but that is what I have found when I search out some of your ‘statements’…I find them fully written on anti-Catholic sites, word for word. It is highly unlikely that you and the anti-Catholic would come up with the very identical words to speak on a particular point….it could happen but would be extremely rare…. in any case, I have a right to refute falsehoods where I see them….that is what these blogs are for….people to state what they want to on the subject.

      Having left the Church at 13, I doubt if you have much of a Catholic understanding of the Church….especially if you have been washing your thoughts through non-Catholic filter for the rest of your life up to this point; however, I am happy to hear that you are grateful for how you were introduced to Jesus.

      When we meet Jesus for the first time we hardly know everything about Him and only come to that wisdom as years go on, if you pursue Him where He is found in His fullness of Truth, the Catholic Church which is the House of God, the pillar and foundation of Truth.

      February 16, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      CatholicMom, I'm not here to see who's pride can blind the sinner quicker. Instead of my having to write another response to you, if you would go up a few post and read what I wrote to LJ pertains to you.

      I still believe the churches (all of them) need to get their act together, stop being lazy and start teaching Jesus' truth scripture by scripture, book by book to the people in their congregations. Starting with Genesis and finishing with Revelations. After church services, they can take time out for Q & A. After taking a few years to get through all 66 books, they can start it all over again. Why do I want this? Then, and only then will His truth be known to everyone and people's lives like mine, are not easily destroyed by those who love to conduct evil in this world because they believe that Jesus to be a fairy tale because the churches aren't doing their best in teaching His truth.

      You have the right to defend your church and you have the right to constantly bicker with my statements.

      I don't care CatholicMom because it was my life that got destroyed because of sloppy teachings of His truth over the years I've been alive. Not yours.

      Peace.

      February 17, 2011 at 9:27 am |
  14. Muneef

    All the science that human knowledge has reached about the creation of the universe,heavens and Earth is nothing but a drop of water out of an oceans of knowledge that human science yet not has yet reached !!
    (http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/aqeedah-methodology/aqeedah-ahle-sunnah-wal-jamaah-316)
    "Say (O Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) to mankind). 'If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid.'" [Surah al-Kahf 18:109 – interpretation of the meaning]

    And He also says:

    "And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink wherewith to write), with seven seas behind it to add to its (supply), yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is AllMighty, AllWise." [Surah Luqman 31:27 – interpretation of the meaning]

    As-Sajda sura 32:
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    Allah it is Who created the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, in six Days. Then He mounted the Throne. Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator. Will ye not then remember? (4) He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon. (5) Such is the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, the Mighty, the Merciful, (6).

    Al-Hajj sura 22:
    And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon. (47).

    The question here is;
    Was the whole creation made at seven days of God dates or of what we reckon??
    Seven Days or Seven Thousand Years?  
    Al-Hajj sura 22: a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon. (47).
    As-Sajda sura 32: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon. (5).

    February 15, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • Muneef

      Can science with all it's mathematics work out what those trying to explain by time differance?
      Al-Maarij sura 70:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      A questioner questioned concerning the doom about to fall (1) Upon the disbelievers, which none can repel, (2) From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways (3) (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years. (4) But be patient (O Muhammad) with a patience fair to see. (5) Lo! they behold it afar off (6) While we behold it nigh: (7).

      February 15, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Muneef,
      Jesus Christ promised the Paraclete who will bring His Church into all remembrances of what He had told the Apostles and the fullness of Truth as we can bear it. I love when He gives us a new discovery which brings us closer to the fullness of Truth as He promised.

      February 15, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.
      Am lost with your words as to who would come to tell? Surely you do not mean waiting until Jesus is back to earth? By then God knows when we would be gone and not sure at that time repentance would be allowed or accepted?
      And any way to say what? That he was no Son of God? Or that he was not God? Or that he never said they are to worship him or his Mother ?PBUH's. Or to say that never told that men and women of God shouldn't get married and to remain singles deprived from rightful pleasure of marriage and having children??

      February 15, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Muneef,

      Your kind way of speaking has left you…..what has hardened your heart?

      The Bible tells us of the Paraclete….I would suggest….. visit the on-line Douay-Rheims Bible. In conjunction with the Bible, visit the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Encyclopedia of the Catholic Church.

      Your understanding of Christianity is very ‘broken’ considering your questions; your knowledge consists of anti-Catholic rhetorical remarks twisted into questions that show your distain for the Catholic Church….your smatterings of ‘this and that’ reveal that you do not have a solid source for your information other than protestant ‘clippings’ which are far from the Truth.

      If you truly have a desire to know the Truth…you now know what to do.

      February 15, 2011 at 8:00 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @CatholicMom

      Hey -CMoM !

      Hope that you are well...?

      Anyway, I responded above to -chief about his comment to -Reality regarding Catholics not being Christian. I haven't heard back from -chief yet to my questions, maybe... you may want to jump in up above and post underneath me.

      I would love to hear your responses.

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 8:09 pm |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.

      Saying sorry is not enough I feel, but honestly I know nothing about any other religion other than what is mentioned in the Quran...therefore excuse my ignorance on the subject really...
      Just upset that who join the house of God is told to remain single unmarried or leave the service...it is not my concern really but I felt for them "males and females" in the service of God as well as to those children, it was a human being feeling only...and was intended as you might thought...and sorry again if you thought I have hardened my heart here,I might have with out intention to hurt but might have been not understanding your comments... You are kind and hope you would forgive me and past it for me...

      February 15, 2011 at 8:23 pm |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.

      May I ask with out being misunderstood again, where those children come from are they orphans looked up by the church or are they students living there or from the neighborhood ? You see I do not know much about your life or religion system so hope am not misunderstood or sound strange..

      February 15, 2011 at 8:29 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Peace2All,

      Hello!
      I posted before I saw your message. You see that I did respond regardless!!
      Glad to see you are back............

      February 16, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Muneef,

      I see you are sincere in that you were not trying to degrade the Catholic Faith but really do not understand it.

      The children that have been abused are children who have some contact with the Priest as in service at Mass or perhaps other times as in Catechism Classes or whenever the pedophile priest can arrange to get the child alone so he can abuse him/her. These children are from homes like any other….with mothers and fathers who do not suspect any wrong doing by their Priest. I imagine the pedophile scares the children into ‘not telling,’ using any number of threats….just like any s3x pervert uses against their victims.

      I think you will find your other question about men and women in the Church in different vocations answered just above this, or at least on these comment pages pertaining to this topic.

      Please forgive me for my misunderstanding your intentions; I am sorry for any distress I may have caused you.

      February 16, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
    • Muneef

      CatolicMom.
      Thank you for explaining what I have asked,you are an Angel.

      February 16, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @CatholicMom

      Yes, thank you. It's good to be back, although my work is requiring more time from me, so I may not be here as much.

      Again, hope that you are well, and thanks for your answer to @chief up above in terms of my questions.

      Peace...

      February 16, 2011 at 6:58 pm |
  15. Muneef

    Catholic Pastors and Nuns should be allowed to get married and have their own children and only then they will feel for the parents.... Them as well as followers should be able to divorce and remarry to enjoy life rather than being imprisoned in such failing relation for their whole life (for one wrong choice)?!

    February 15, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Muneef ...this is a easy one. If you feel Priest and Nuns should be allowed to marry and "enjoy life"....

      ...Then you should also have a problem with Non-Muslim men marrying Muslim women.

      Can't wait for this response 🙂

      February 15, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
    • Muneef

      Mark from middle river.

      What has my comment to do with what you ask me to brief you? Any way here you want to repeat some thing already discussed in other blog to do with letter from Jews of Israel to mothers about Jewish women,girls and Arab men,boys?
      Any way some branches of Islam are restricting and some are so moderate they mind not since being a believer...but my own point of view is a committed worshiper of the people of the book could be much more better than a Muslim by birth but agnostic hypocrite or atheist...!

      February 15, 2011 at 5:12 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Muneef, I ask again because you put out that Priest and Nuns should be allowed to marry and have kids but at the same time I just want to hear you say that just as you feel the Catholic is wrong for their rules. I want to hear you say the same about those Muslims who follow these rules.

      February 15, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
    • Muneef

      Mark From Middle River.

      With all respect the issues are incomparable as I was about those religious ones to be able to give to society they have to be part of it. Example our religious imams or what so ever are not restricted from marriage, in the contrary in Islam a man even before reaching the age of manhood has to be gotten married as it is told that marriage is half of the religion and any unmarried would be considered with one half of the religion only...
      That shows the importance of marriage to religion...
      But see here those are deprived and had to choose between marriage or God to live life with either one and not both? Those deprived from marriage and from having children of their own to share their love with,having tried to share their love with children not of theirs and not married to release pressure has driven them to become having secret life that is no coming up to surface to show how much this issue is adversely effecting the trust in men or women of God?! Therefore rest assured here that I am not trying to be sarcastic about the issue....
      God states he created us in pairs;
      Al-Baqara sura 02:
       "They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them.".       
      "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will",

      Adh-Dhariyat sura 51:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful 
      We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof). (47) And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)! (48) And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect. (49).

      February 15, 2011 at 6:26 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Muneef All children are born atheist, how can they be born Muslim, Catholic, protestant.. that happens to be the religion of their parents...they may not want to take the religion they are brought up in... any more than a child is born Republican or Democrat.
      I bet however that if a child is born to you, he will not be able to switch sides.. or will you fight against the internal tyranny of your religion and allow it.? just asking.. and i notice that Mark fro Middle has also an interesting question to yoI which you will not answer. While i disagree with religion, I fully support the right to belong, and to change if it is not the right one, or you disagree. And in fairness to all others they will allow it to happen with no violence.. maybe just a little pouting.

      February 15, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Muneef, No where is it written in the Bible that these folks can't marry. This is a man-made doctrine of the Catholic Church not allowing their priests or nuns to marry.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:45 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Muneef,

      When someone is inspired to a vocation such as the religious life….that is a vocation where someone dedicates his/her life to it. It is what the person is drawn to do with their life. They desire all that it encompass-ses including purity of love in all things…as it is with the married vocation.

      Catholic Priests or Nuns who after taking their vows decide they wish to partake of the vocation of marriage are allowed to do so but are no longer bound to the vocation of the religious. Married people who cannot accept the precepts of their marriage are allowed to divorce if one party or the other will not fulfill the vows of this vocation.

      Whether they can or cannot pursue other vocations in the Church is up to each individual circu-mstance and the Church holds the power and authority given Her by Jesus Christ when He founded His Church to decide for each circu-mstance.

      No one is killed for renouncing their vows in either vocation; but they must live within what is allowed according to the Church if they wish to live in accord with Jesus Christ’s laws which He bestowed upon the Church to uphold. Many leave the Church because they wish to make their own judgment as to what Christ wants for them in life; they are not put to death for using their freewill to do as they please. Many come to the Church because they see the wisdom in Her and are tired of floundering about without True direction which is consistent within the Catholic Church.

      Truth never changes….

      February 16, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      @Evolved DNA
      Muneef All children are born atheist, how can they be born Muslim, Catholic, protestant.. that happens to be the religion of their parents...they may not want to take the religion they are brought up in... any more than a child is born Republican or Democrat.
      --------–
      EDN,

      I disagree! I would state it this way: Children are born not knowing. They are not able to make a choice! They are not born dis believing! Atheistism is learned, just like faith is! Would you agree?

      February 17, 2011 at 4:07 pm |
  16. Mark from Middle River

    Interesting still Reality, nothing on heavensent's anti gay and lesbian comments...just more and notiable not with the same effort... anti-Faith comments.

    I ask again, are you that much of a one-trick pony and can only talk anti-Faith or can you stand up against folks who have issue with LGBT on a basic social peace side.

    My opinion is that I think you do but, that would force you to find commonality and allegiance with the the persons of Faith who challenged and jumped on heavensent. Its a hard thing for those on the extremes to wake up and find that on particular issues they have the same opinions of those that they swear to oppose on others.

    You called me "muddy" river. That's cool because when, in society often get deep into arguments and debates and by the time we stop and take a breath and look around, we often find ourselves not knowing who is friend and who is our enemy. Its like getting into a brawl do at the "muddy" river. Me and you might have different views on Faith, we might choose to get into a big fight over it but there will be issues that you, me and all of us will find common ground.

    February 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Mark from the Middle River, just where are these post of "mine" you are speaking of. Seems to me, I never mentioned anything you are claiming.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      While you are looking for said posts Mark from Middle River, note who wrote the words you are referring and pay special attention to how I answered. Never once did I write the words you are accusing me of.

      So who's anti-what?

      February 16, 2011 at 12:23 pm |
  17. doctore0

    @MarkinFL
    Only religion says everything came from nothing, with abracadbra, believe it and get extra life in luxury with the wizard in the sky

    February 15, 2011 at 9:40 am |
    • HeavenSent

      doctore0, if you folks can't figure out Jesus' teachings are a positive influence on an individual's life, then no amount of explaining His truth will convince you of this fact. You, like most non-believers are missing out. Not Christians.

      Do you want to view your glass as half empty throughout your life? Or, do you vision your glass as half full?

      It's your choice. Free will, remember?

      February 16, 2011 at 6:09 am |
    • Eric G.

      @HeavenSent: Sorry, logical foul in your statement. In your post, you claim that the teachings of Jesus are fact without any supportive evidence.

      On a side note, you state that non-believers must "figure this out for ourselves" while taking a position of superiority because you have knowledge that others do not. This is odd for two reasons. First, you will need to establish that your claims of fact are fact. This is where the pesky evidence thing comes up. If you cannot provide evidence, you are asking others to take your word for it. What if you were mentally ill? Should we not ask for verifiacation of your claims? Second, your position of arrogance is unsupported without evidence. What you are saying is that you claim to be superior to others, and you do not need to provide evidence to support your claim.

      Last, I do not consider myself a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" kind of person. Using the coffee cup next to me for example.... It was full, I drank half of it. When I drink the other half, I will have had one cup of coffee.

      February 16, 2011 at 7:21 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Eric G, glad you enjoyed your cup of coffee.

      Refresh my memory of your beliefs.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:48 am |
    • Eric G.

      @heavensent: Thank you, I do make a mean cup of joe.

      To what beliefs are you referring? That is a broad question. I could respond that I "believe" the Tigers have a team that can compete for a playoff spot this year. I have a feeling that is not what you are looking for. Can you be more specific?

      February 16, 2011 at 9:57 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Eric G. Never mind. Most likely you'll spew the same ole same ole babble that all non-believers spew.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:14 pm |
  18. Curious

    I found I was referring to in my post above.

    HeavenSent

    Peace2All, your shots against Jesus' teachings will not hold water (reminds me of the scripture about springs with no water) for this postings since we are discussing the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Jesus ... even though they split from His truth (See the books of Ezra and Nehemiah).

    Amen.

    February 15, 2011 at 8:30 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Curious

      I see you re-posted (quoted) a misunderstanding by -HeavenSent in regards to a conversation we were having. Did you want to add something here...?

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:17 pm |
  19. Reality

    The "puke-producing" topic is simply another result of the Great Resurrection Con Game with victims such as HeavenSent and Mark from "Muddy" River:

    To wit:

    From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

    Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university's theology grad school white-board notes:

    "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
    Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

    "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

    Of course, we all know that angels are really mythical "pretty wingie talking thingies".

    With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

    An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
    p.4
    "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."
    o p.168. by Ted Peters:
    "Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

    So where are the bones? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

    February 15, 2011 at 7:43 am |
    • chief

      dont confuse catholic with Christian..... catholicism is its own religion with some truths of Christianity.... which makes it a partial truth... and wrong....

      to wit.... your references to books written in 1700 AD and catholic teachers who are confused any way, do not amount to anything of substance.... you can dislike catholicism for many reasons, even Christianity but dont be an idiot about it

      February 15, 2011 at 9:56 am |
    • Reality

      Only for the those interested in update in religion 101:

      1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

      New Torah For Modern Minds

      Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment.

      2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan se-cts.

      The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
      earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

      For added "pizz-azz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "fil-icider".

      Current RCC problems:

      Pedo-ph-iliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

      3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

      Current problems:
      Adu-lterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

      4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

      The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

      Current crises:

      The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

      6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
      "However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

      Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

      Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

      Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!

      February 15, 2011 at 10:35 am |
    • Peace2All

      @chief

      You said to (-Reality): "dont confuse catholic with Christian..... catholicism is its own religion with some truths of Christianity.... which makes it a partial truth... and wrong...."

      I'm sincerely curious -chief. Is this written somewhere where it is officially acknowledged that Catholics aren't Christians...?

      Or is this just your 'belief.'...? I truly don't know.

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:10 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      chief,
      Catholic is Christianity. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Those who broke away 500 years ago left Mother Church, the True Bible and Authority behind. Once broken, protestants kept splitting….now 38,000 times or more!

      February 15, 2011 at 8:36 pm |
    • gerald

      "hich makes it a partial truth... and wrong.... "

      So Chief, this would imply that you have all the truth and are infallible. Or do you have partial truth (and are wrong) as well? Which is it chief?

      February 15, 2011 at 11:21 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, this blog is a joke. You non-believers get your nonsense posted, but serious debates of Jesus' truth is held back by your Mod squad. You sir, are a ringer or a moderator yourself. Seems, none of your postings get blocked!

      February 16, 2011 at 5:26 am |
    • LJ

      HS that actually is not true the mod squad is doing no such thing. Reality has posted several times how to write to get past the filter in various threads on this forum. I read the post and adjusted my comments appropriately. Again this is why I challenge your way of reading text and more assumptions not backed up by fact.

      February 16, 2011 at 8:49 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, you sure have strange desires to go for anyone and anything that go against Jesus' teachings.

      I hope that you are still young and immature, than to think an older individual still writes with all this passion.

      February 16, 2011 at 9:18 am |
    • CatholicMom

      HeavenSent,

      I think Reality is nearly as old as I am. He does more cutting and pasting than anyone, I know of, except David Johnson who may be neck and neck with him; it could be either he doesn't have a real opinion of his own or has a hard time explaining himself in his own words, or he just may have a difficult time typing which I could then understand completely.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LJ, I've read and copied what Reality has provided on postingt. I've done as he suggested, splitting up words, adding other symbols for letters that are scrutinized, putting spacing or hyphens in between words. I also read and copied that the wording shouldn't be over 50 words long. No matter how many times (and I've saved the messages I wrote that the mods refused to post) I post, it's a no go by the non-believing moderators. That is now a fact. Whether you want to believe me or not. They are still blocking most of what I write and those are mostly to you.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
    • LJ

      HS actually it's the Holy Spirit blocking it since it probably was not appropriate thing to write to me.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @HeavenSent,
      "I post, it's a no go by the non-believing moderators. That is now a fact."
      If I'm wrong please correct me, but you have no way of knowing whether the moderators, or the programmers who wrote the filter, are believers or not. Is that your idea of a fact?

      February 16, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      It could be that @Reality is simply more skilled and smarter than you. 🙂

      I think @Reality repeats the long copy/pastes for several reasons: Certain subjects just scream for the same arguments and they are just too long to type each time, plus it is also a way for @Reality to cite his sources.

      CatholicMom,

      I have not seen many, if any, copy/pastes from David Johnson, other than his own previously composed pieces. Again, if it's the same points being made, why waste time typing the same stuff.

      And what about Muneef! Nobody, but nobody can beat him! Poor guy... he thinks that he is earning merit badges in heaven for each post.

      February 16, 2011 at 12:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LJ,
      Why do you assume my responses were not appropriate? I was stating my opinion to what you wrote me (several times throughout the blog) which happened to oppose what you wrote. It’s the opposition or the catching of yours or anyone’s non-believers statement to be opposed on what’s being discussed that is being blocked. That tells me that opposing statements have to be generic in nature, never specific, detailed, or, heaven forbid never dates be checked.

      Magic,
      Da ya really think ... that’s the problem? Ghee ... should I have guessed that non-believers would take sides to throw in their shots????

      Same ole, same ole ... how to bully 101-oh!!!

      Nonimus,
      I sent the responses several times after the first response was held. I then used hyphens, other symbols, spacing and whatever the rules that the automatic moderator requires. It was still rejected, which tells me that human eyes are not allowing those responses to be posted.

      CatholicMom,
      At least the guy has FAITH which tells me he has morals, ethics, kind heart and other good qualities.

      February 16, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
    • LJ

      HS – You are ent-i-tled to believe what you want but you also have to be open to the fact you don’t know everything, understand everything. It probably has never crossed your mind that maybe the reason some of us in good faith are pointing things out is we are inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. Based on a few posts you have put me in the category of non-believer because I won’t agree with your limited viewpoint of the scrip-tures. The issue I am having with you is everything you continue to post about us non-believers actually applies to yourself. Your posts come off as being filled with ego since you believe your interpretation of what is written is the truth. Here is something to think about, if I call you a name such as b–itch you have many ways you can interpret what I just wrote. You can laugh it off since you know I don’t really mean it, you can get upset because to you that name is offensive, you can call me a name back, you can understand that we all come from different walks of life and your personal experience is going to di-ct-ate how you interpret it. There are numerous ways you can take what I wrote. Based on the posts you have presented in your mind there is only on choice, one truth, and one way. I am merely telling you, you are mistaken.

      February 16, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Catholicmom . Praying .... abdication of personal responsibility. you most certainly ignore the recent issues of your church .. if we thought the way of JC I think the pope would be out on his ear..

      February 16, 2011 at 10:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LJ,
      Believe me, I'm not here to debate scriptures with you or anyone. Even though as a believer, I use His Truth to make a point because we happen to be on a belief site. I'm blogging as a survivor. A survivor of evil that destroyed my life as I knew it.

      Now, by forcing my hand that I reveal my truth to why I am blogging on this site ...I'm trying to figure out why non-believers get their feathers out of whack as they continue to refuse to believe in His truth, hide behind science ... which I had no clue was some how twisted and contorted against those that believe in our Savior. I was taught true Science and Jesus' truth fit perfectly together, in harmony. Never realizing before my life was destroyed that there are divided sides that pit people to butt heads against each other through lie. How this happened is what I'm trying to uncover by being on these blogs! This is why several times on different posts, I asked the trekkies when are any of them going to help believers in working together to uncover His truth in scriptures that believers still haven't uncovered His true understanding?

      That's it. Nothing more. Amen.

      February 17, 2011 at 9:04 am |
    • MarkinFL

      The question is not whether science is compatible with religion but whether religion is compatible with science. Since science is simply looking at the world in a measurable, objective manner, and nothing more or less than that, it may be that any religion that requires you to believe something that goes against what science has shown to be true will be completely incompatible. On the other hand, you are free to believe whatever fantasy you like and still accept scientific knowledge as long as the two have not incompatibly intersected. Of course faith itself is completely unscientific by definition, so the "compatibility" is really just a matter of keeping them separate and convincing yourself that though science has proven to be a highly effective way of describing the physical universe and using its resources it should not be used to understand gods or their behavior.

      February 17, 2011 at 9:16 am |
    • LJ

      For me it’s about doing what is morally right as we know and understand things today. We have evolved in our thought process because through science we understand more about the life that sustains us here and about ourselves. We are Sheppard’s of this earth so I do believe we need to understand our enormous impact on it and each other. Let’s look at this example. There is a description in the scriptures about water turning to blood. When it’s is viewed by the limited knowledge of a person in the past, they are describing what they are seeing to them water did turn to blood. Today, through science, we now know that during that period in that region the tectonic plates shifted and a great amount of iron seeped into the water, turning it the color of blood. To our minds of today we know and understand that today but for someone in the past they wouldn’t. The same goes for how we evolved in our thinking regarding slavery and women rights. That is why some of us keep saying when reading the scriptures put it into historical context. The Bible is a great tool for guidance on how we are to organize ourselves in a society, on how we should follow Christ’s teachings, love God. I do not think it should be used as a tool to justify prejudice against a minority group that has now been shown that the people of the past did not understand. I believe the Holy Spirit is bringing this debate out, trying to reveal the truth to us because by the teaching in Christ we are not loving all of our neighbors. Hatred and prejudice has no place in the heart of a true Christian. It is because of this hatred and prejudice I am glad that there is a separation of Church and State.

      February 17, 2011 at 11:22 am |
    • HeavenSent

      MarkinFL, can you give it a rest assuming that believers that follow Jesus don't believe in science? Can you and are you ever going to give up this untruth to your thought process? Because, many believers know true science to be a reality and have stated so many times on these posts. With that said, as a Christian, I am beyond tired of reading your beliefs about this non-truth so you can continue on your argument of putting us down for our beliefs.

      True science is and always has been compatible with Jesus' truth. It's unproven theories that we don't go all ga-ga over, like you folks do. Hoping, wishing, (isn't that sounding like secretly praying) that those theories will some day, some how become a proven fact aka reality. Scientific facts were written in Jesus' truth 1000s of years ago. You folks just don't care to check back with scriptures again to see how His truth just became unveiled to all of us. Those same scriptures that were written thousands of years ago. His word has never changed, it's people who have changed over the years to comprehend His truth as written.

      Amen.

      February 17, 2011 at 11:44 am |
  20. Ed

    The atheist are out! Watch out these are people that believe in nothing but has the most to say about people who believe in something. These are people that beleive in the THEORY Of evolution: when everything came to existence out of nothing.Strange crowd

    February 15, 2011 at 6:16 am |
    • doctore0

      And you believe in what?
      Some tyrant god and mass-raping cult.. wow
      Actually you just don't want to die, hence you buy into the most silly scam ever made, god.

      February 15, 2011 at 7:13 am |
    • MarkinFL

      Ummm "everything came into existence out of nothing"

      Sounds like a god.

      February 15, 2011 at 9:10 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Ed

      You Said: "everything came to existence out of nothing."

      I'm with -MarkinFL on this as your statement can certainly have many interpretations, and one definitely looking and sounding like a god or god-like beings.

      And yet you have the temerity to call agnostics or atheists..."Strange Crowd"...?

      Interesting.......

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:04 pm |
    • Muneef

      Peace2All.
      Hi there I think you have disappeared for a while,or am I wrong? Any why glad always to know you are around...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
    • Muneef

      It is a pity to see that the books which were the base of the knowledge and science of today are no longer considered! Although we know as Muslims that the Quran has all the knowledge hidden within the words and verses that need to be tackled to release hidden contents that explains our wonders...
      Where ever and how much long the science may go wandering, it will in the end come back to find what was told in the book in the simplest words there are for us to understand..! God order things to become as he wishes with a word of order as be and it becomes to be...! So now about gravity being behind the whole creation, could be possible but first ask who created gravity and instructed it to do as told,willingly or loth...!
      Read these verses; 
           
      Fussilat sura 41:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds. (9) He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask; (10) Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient. (11) Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower. (12). 

      February 15, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Muneef

      Hello, my friend. Yes, I'm here (online) for a bit anyway. I hope that you are well...?

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • Muneef

      Peace2All.
      Well friend am fine hopefully although turmoil is starting in some main cities of our country to have some thing like Tunisia and Egypt. That warries me a lot since here tribal civilians are heavely armed and could make unendful nuisance..Peace.

      February 15, 2011 at 7:42 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Muneef

      I'm concerned for you. I believe that you are in Yemen, yes...?

      Stay safe, as best you can. But, also, if you can... try and keep in contact with the outside world. Hopefully, no one in your country will attempt to shut down your internet.

      Stay safe -Muneef.

      Peace...

      February 15, 2011 at 7:53 pm |
    • Muneef

      Peace2All.
      Thank you friend just hope all will turn fine and resolved with out going through all that mess and sorrows.
      Any way God is great and protective.

      February 15, 2011 at 10:04 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Ed.. the Theory of evolution. prove it wrong with evidence to back it up..... we wait .... do you believe then in the theory of Gravity? or do you float?

      February 15, 2011 at 11:05 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.