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February 15th, 2011
07:00 AM ET
My Take: Science and spirituality should be friends
By Deepak Chopra, Special to CNN For most people, science deserves its reputation for being opposed to religion. I'm not thinking of the rather noisy campaign by a handful of die-hard atheists to demote and ridicule faith. I'm thinking instead of Charles Darwin, whose theory of evolution has proved victorious over the Book of Genesis and its story of God creating the universe in seven days. Since then, God has been found wanting when measured against facts and data. With no data to support the existence of God, there is also no reason for religion and science to close the gap between them. Yet the gap has indeed been closing. Religion and spirituality didn't go away just because organized religion has been losing its hold, as suggested by showing decades of declining church attendance in the U.S. and Western Europe. Despite the noisy atheists, two trends in spirituality and science have started to converge. One is the trend to seek God outside the church. This has given rise to a kind of spirituality based on personal experience, with an openness to accept Eastern traditions like meditation and yoga as legitimate ways to expand one's consciousness. If God is to be found anywhere, it is inside the consciousness of each person. Even in the Christian West we have the assurance of Jesus that the kingdom of heaven is within, while the Old Testament declares, "Be still and know that I am God." The other trend is a growing interest by scientists in questions about consciousness. Twenty years ago, a respectable researcher couldn't ask daring questions such as "do we live in an intelligent universe?" or "Is there mind outside the body?" That's because materialism rules science; it is the core of the scientific worldview that reality is constructed out of physical building blocks - tiny things like atoms and quarks - whose motion is essentially random. When you use words like "intelligence" and "design" in discussing the patterns in nature, immediately you are tarred with the same brush as creationists, who have hijacked those terms to defend their religious beliefs. But time brings change, and next week my foundation is hosting a symposium in Southern California where the gap between science and spirituality will be narrow somewhat, not on the basis of religion but on the basis of consciousness. Outside the view of the general public, science has reached a critical point. The physical building blocks of the universe have gradually vanished; that is, atoms and quarks no longer seem solid at all but are actually clouds of energy, which in turn disappear into the void that seems to be the source of creation. Was mind also born in the same place outside space and time? Is the universe conscious? Do genes depend on quantum interactions? Science aims to understand nature down to its very essence, and now these once radical questions, long dismissed as unscientific, are unavoidable. My conference, called the Sages and Scientists Symposium: The Merging of A New Future, is only one in a wave of gatherings through which hundreds of researchers are working to define a new paradigm for the relationship between spirituality and science. It is becoming legitimate to talk of invisible forces that shape creation - not labeling them as God but as the true shapers of reality beyond the space/time continuum. A whole new field known as quantum biology has sprung up, based on a true breakthrough - the idea that the total split between the micro world of the quantum and the macro world of everyday things may be a false split. If so, science will have to account for why the human brain, which lives in the macro world, derives its intelligence from the micro world. Either atoms and molecules are smart, or something makes them smart. That something, I believe, will come down to a conscious universe. Agree or disagree, you cannot simply toss the question out the window. It turns out that the opposition of science to religion is a red herring. The real goal of a new science will be to expand our reality so that spiritual truths are acceptable, along with many other subjective experiences that science has long dismissed as unreliable. We are conscious beings who live with purpose and meaning. It seems unlikely that these arose form a random, meaningless universe. The final answer to where they came from may shake science to its core. I certainly hope it does. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Deepak Chopra. soundoff (1,568 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Next »
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Editor's Note: Deepak Chopra is founder of the 
Deepak Chopra begins his blog with a false premise. As a Catholic, I understand that science and the Book of Genesis are not in conflict. Catholics view the Book of Genesis not as a scientific account of creation, but rather a book of profound spiritual truths. For Catholics, the world in its details is the product of a long process of evolution, while at the most profound level everything begins with the Word of God. Perhaps Deepak should stick to promoting his own spiritual beliefs without also putting down other people's beliefs, especially when he apparently does not fully understand those beliefs.
Natural selection does not equal evolution. The term evolution is used to loosely and inappropriately. Regardless, science and religion do not have to conflict.
William.
God is the force of nature and is the nature of all nature and forces of all forces,
He just says the word to be for it to be and become as God designed,fashioned it to be. God could have even grown his creation as plants or fungus grow out of earth...all it needs just drops of water;
Al-Anbiya
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? (30).
God could had creation either ways is possible for him...created of all livings from chemicals to full creatures....in the book if looked so simple is because God message was to people with less knowldge premitive whether in the east or west...and had to be in simple examples but that might hold big meanings in today's knowldge and facilities...about mankind God created at it's best, but never in the Quran it was stated that men had been given his (God's) looks...God told us that all creatures are nations like us,which means they were created in the same way...although God as well spoke of integration of mankind and well as animals in cross marriages that made variable nations...
At-Tin sura95:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Surely We created man of the best stature (4) Then we reduced him to the lowest of the low, (5) Save those who believe and do good works, and theirs is a reward unfailing. (6).
Al-Anaam sura 06:
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered. (38).
Al-Furqan 25:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful. (54).
Al-Noor sura 24:
Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. (45) .
Az-Zumar 39:
He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away? (6).
Al-Anaam sura 06:
Lo! Allah (it is) Who splitteth the grain of corn and the date-stone (for sprouting). He bringeth forth the living from the dead, and is the bringer-forth of the dead from the living. Such is Allah. How then are ye perverted? (95) He is the Cleaver of the Daybreak, and He hath appointed the night for stillness, and the sun and the moon for reckoning. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (96) And He it is Who hath set for you the stars that ye may guide your course by them amid the darkness of the land and the sea. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. (97) And He it is Who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) a habitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have understanding. (98).
Says all we need is knowledge and understanding to figure things out for our self from the puzzle we think have within our holy books since it was addressed to simpler minds of that then and even now.
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution (Natural Selection) has not had any victory over the Book of Genesis. It is one thing just to say it but it is not proven. Science and archaeology have verified many biblical claims and serious scholarship from believers and non-believers have verified the Bible's veracity time and time again. Most people choose to remain skeptic and not study ALL the facts before making claims. Here is a little more evolution vs. creation by Roger Patterson:
The evolution of life on earth from simple matter is accepted as a fact by secular science. Natural selection is claimed by evolutionists to support the belief that all life has emerged from a common ancestor over billions of years. Observational science has demonstrated that natural selection acts to decrease or conserve the amount of genetic information in a population. In order to turn an amoeba into an ape, there has to be an increase in genetic information. Despite this fact, evolutionists insist on the increasing complexity of life over time. To add to the problems of the evolutionary story, life must have evolved from nonliving chemicals. No one understands how this could have happened, but it is accepted as true regardless of any evidence.
The Bible presents a very different picture. God created all living things according to their kind in a series of supernatural acts. All life came from these original kinds, not from a single ancestor. The change that is evident in the fossil record is the result of change by natural selection within the created kinds. Dogs have become different types of dogs, but have never produced anything other than dogs. Man is not the result of an evolutionary process, but was created in the image of God as described in the Bible. The fossil record is not the result of gradual change over billions of years, but the record of the global Flood and events following it. Evolutionists look to outer space to find life on distant planets and attempt to communicate with beings beyond the earth when God, the “Ultimate Being,” has already communicated to us through His Word.
William – You have parroted a nice list of well-refuted mistruths. Duplication, mutation and selection have been directly observed to produce novel functionality (e.g. Lenski's E. coli experiment). There are many promising hypotheses addressing abiogenesis, but even without a fully vetted theory, the evidence for evolution stands on its own. From the fossil record, to biogeography, to molecular and developmental biology. Add in the physics and chemistry and they all consistently and concordantly agree on an ancient earth and biological evolution.
The fossil record does show change via the numerous transitional forms one can find and more importantly, predict as one moves thru the geologic column. The discrete and progressive order of the fossil record clearly contradicts the notion that all the "kinds" were created together and coexisted both pre- and post-flood. No humans with dinosaur fossils, no rabbits in the pre-Cambrian.
Ask yourself this William, how many oil/mineral companies use "flood geology" to locate reserves? Before you go searching, I'll save you the time by letting you know it is zero. Why? Because "flood geology" has no actual basis in reality.
WILLIAM: Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution (Natural Selection) has not had any victory over the Book of Genesis. It is one thing just to say it but it is not proven. Science and archaeology have verified many biblical claims and serious scholarship from believers and non-believers have verified the Bible's veracity time and time again. Most people choose to remain skeptic and not study ALL the facts before making claims.
WORLD: I think part of all the facts to consider, are who wrote the Bible, what their level of knowledge was... and how believable to them it would have been... if God spoke to them using the scientific facts we know today. Knowing only English and a tiny bit of Spanish myself, it would have been as if God showed up speaking Chinese to me. I would have no way of understanding what was said, much less being able to remember it and tell it over and over by the campfires for hundreds or thousands of years before it was written down. So of course it would have to be explained in simplistic terms to those being spoken to, so they might have some ability to understand. Of course God couldn't get bogged down trying to explain the scientific details to those who would have had no idea what he was speaking about. Understanding requires relevant understandable examples, not knowledge thousands of years in advance of current knowledge. That doesn't mean Genesis isn't true, just that it does not contain all the details. All it says is that water was created, then God created man from the dust of the ground. It doesn't give a cook book recipe about how it was done, because no one back then would have had a clue what God was talking about. So evolution attempts to provide the details. I agree that science including archaeology and the social sciences have proven the validity of many things in the Bible, but not necessarily at the same level or detail... and not always in total agreement. Time and time again, does not mean always. Again, we have to consider the knowledge and ability to understand certain principles by those who wrote God's inspired word for the reasons I mentiond above. And don't use the inspired word trick. I can be inspired by a sunset, but I certainly could not tell you all details about the sun, what equations make the earth revolve to cause it, why the path around the sun is eliptical not round, etc etc. So inspired word in no way means exact.
WILLIAM: Here is a little more evolution vs. creation by Roger Patterson:
ROGER: The evolution of life on earth from simple matter is accepted as a fact by secular science. Natural selection is claimed by evolutionists to support the belief that all life has emerged from a common ancestor over billions of years.
WORLD: Evoulution does not indicate a common ancestor, but rather considers the complex interactions of matter over billions, if not more, of years. So Roger untruthfully starts with an oversimplified concept to build an illogical argument that he can the refute instead of dealing with the complex one he probably can't refute. That's not the way to tell the truth, so we've broken a commandment right from the start.
ROGER: Observational science has demonstrated that natural selection acts to decrease or conserve the amount of genetic information in a population.
WORLD: Again a falsehood. As I understand it, natural selection is based on naturally occuring genetic mutations in DNA producing life forms better suited to survive prevailing conditions. Thus its not an effort to conserve, which seems a more forced human characteristic, like when Hitler's folks tried to use Darwins Natural Selection ideas to justify their immoral means to purify "the race". You mentioned dogs. I have often heard from dog people that purebreads are the dumbest dogs. We also only have to look at incestual births to understand that trying to conserve the genetic make up leads to genetic deficiencies that work against survival... not for it. Its by mixing DNA and coming up with different stronger combinations, that the stronger life forms evolve. Of course the different mixture may also die out if not suited to survival.
Creation and destruction go on eternally and have no need for a beginning of time or end of time, though we all will have our own.
ROGER: In order to turn an amoeba into an ape, there has to be an increase in genetic information.
WORLD: Its not necessarily or always an increase, but also differences that become more able to adapt to surrounding situations.
ROGER: Despite this fact, evolutionists insist on the increasing complexity of life over time.
WORLD: I'm not sure increasing complexity is the result, but rather different more suited DNA combinations for survival. The idea of increasing complexity, only seems to be an ego thing with human pride in its conceit putting theirselves at the top of all creation, and even that may be flawed. We know from science that matter is never destroyed, just recombined, and always kept in balance. So this seems to be a phrase more based on human pride, than things actually getting more complex.
ROGER: To add to the problems of the evolutionary story, life must have evolved from nonliving chemicals. No one understands how this could have happened, but it is accepted as true regardless of any evidence.
WORLD: Sorry but experiments have been done that indicate lightning combined with elements existing on earth billions of years ago, would create an extreme form of elementary life. I believe it was referred to as a sort of a primordial ooze. The more scientific folks can correct or fill in the details here, but I remeber seeing it in Carl Sagan's book and PBS special COSMOS as well as I think Discovery magazine, way back in the late 70's early 80's. We've probably learned more in the last 30 years.
ROGER?: The Bible presents a very different picture.
WORLD: Less detailed, more primative and poetic. On the level of those receiving the message.
ROGER: God created all living things according to their kind in a series of supernatural acts. All life came from these original kinds, not from a single ancestor. The change that is evident in the fossil record is the result of change by natural selection within the created kinds. Dogs have become different types of dogs, but have never produced anything other than dogs.
WORLD: Proof.... other than just because I said so or it was written in the Bible? Within created kinds is all we will probably see with a human life time or since we've been looking, but recorded history is but pin point compared to the world when talking about the time we know of the earths existence.
ROGER?: Man is not the result of an evolutionary process, but was created in the image of God as described in the Bible.
WORLD: In and within can mean the same thing and within makes a whole lot more sense. Once you can make this slight change by reconsidering the meaning of the word "in" or how its used. Once you think of it as within, which means the same thing as in, and consider the level of knowledge the people had to understand God's word with, then science and religion can go hand and hand here, like the other science and archaeology discoveries mentioned above.
ROGER: The fossil record is not the result of gradual change over billions of years, but the record of the global Flood and events following it. Evolutionists look to outer space to find life on distant planets and attempt to communicate with beings beyond the earth when God, the “Ultimate Being,” has already communicated to us through His Word.
WORLD: Actually the Greek, the language much of the New Testament was translated from, used the word "LOGOS" for what has been replaced with the word "WORD". LOGOS is the word also for LOGIC. Perhaps WORD was used for LOGOS because humans communicate logic to each other via WORDs and perhaps also because it could then be use later to justify literal interpretation. However, so much more makes sense for everyone, if LOGIC instead of WORD was used in 1st JOHN:
JOHN 1:1 In the begining was the LOGIC, and the LOGIC was with God, and the LOGIC was God.
JOHN 1:2 The same was in the beginning with GOD (LOGIC was God at the beginning before our creation even)
JOHN 1:3 All things were made by LOGIC and without LOGIC was not anything made that was made.
JOHN 1:4 In LOGIC was life, and the LOGIC was the light of men.
JOHN 1:5 And the LOGIC shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. (Light and Dark was a theme adopted from the Persian religion Zoroastrianism which had ruled and influenced the Middle East for 500 some years prior to Christianity's birth – just an interesting fact)
The Bible, other books of faith, all religion and science has to go hand in hand for those who value the truth. Like those mentioned above, sitting around the campfire, its just that we all have different levels of understandiing. Ignorance though is the root of all evil, so we all should try to understand why differences exist and reconcile them without malice or condemnations.
World,
Does "God" want everyone to believe in 'him', or not? Did he just want members of some Middle Eastern tribes to believe, so he got a message to them on their level of understanding?
Does 'he' not keep up to date on our levels of understanding? Does 'he' not know that ancient cryptic messages are not acceptable today?
William.
God could had it been both ways is possible for him...created of all livings from chemicals to full creatures....in the book if looked so simple is because God message was to people with less knowldge premitive whether in the east or west...and had to be in simple examples but that might hold big meanings in today's knowldge and facilities...about mankind God created at it's best, but never in the Quran it was stated that men had been given his (God's) looks...God told us that all creatures are nations like us,which means they were created in the same way...although God as well spoke of integration of mankind and well as animals in cross marriages that made variable nations...
At-Tin sura95:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Surely We created man of the best stature (4) Then we reduced him to the lowest of the low, (5) Save those who believe and do good works, and theirs is a reward unfailing. (6).
Al-Anaam sura 06:
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered. (38).
Al-Furqan 25:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful. (54).
Al-Noor sura 24:
Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. (45) .
William.
This one even explains more...
Az-Zumar 39:
He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away? (6).
Magic: Does "God" want everyone to believe in 'him', or not?
WORLD: IT really doesn't care whether you do or not though clues are everywhere.
Magic: Did he just want members of some Middle Eastern tribes to believe, so he got a message to them on their level of understanding?
WORLD: The messages are everywhere in many religious and non religious groups and books etc.,on many levels for first graders and adavanced college students so to speak. Only the first graders beieve in MAGIC.
MAGIC: Does 'he' not keep up to date on our levels of understanding? Does 'he' not know that ancient cryptic messages are not acceptable today?
WORLD: I would argue that you are the one who has not kept up to date leading to logic that is not acceptible as evident by still refering to the Supreme Power as "he". Please read the rest of my posts above. Especially the part about waiting for first grade primers on science and religion. No need for me to repeat anu more than I already have. But please if you have further questions after reading, I'd love to attempt to answer them. You have to make little effort and if you aren't willing.... its your problem, not "God's".
NL.
Light of Lights send us Lights.
God being the light of heavens and earth send us his light inspired delivered to his chosen messenger to learn it by heart and have it written out in to scriptures and in to books to enlighten both Jinn&Mankind the inhabitants of earth.
Moses was attrected to a firelight at one of the trees when he needed that fire for warmth, cooking and there where when God first spoke to Moses in form of light to give him message and powers !
Ta-Ha sura 20:
Hath there come unto thee the story of Moses? (9) When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Wait! Lo! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire. (10) And when he reached it, he was called by name: O Moses! (11) Lo! I, even I, am thy Lord, So take off thy shoes, for lo! thou art in the holy valley of Tuwa. (12) And I have chosen thee, so hearken unto that which is inspired. (13) Lo! I, even I, am Allah, There is no God save Me. So serve Me and establish worship for My remembrance. (14).
Wonder why mankind for generations worshiped:
-Fires.
-The Sun.
-The Moon.
-Planets&Stars.
It was the Light because the knew creator was of Light but searched for it in the wrong sources,or made an idole of light sources to worship rather than reading and looking in to ones self by reading the light that is within the books that was meant for them to read thing and believe in to submission !.
Our lights at the moment are scatered in dispute and lead to many astray and in to wrong doers with knowledge or with out knowledge as to rights aod wrongs brought up be the messengers as words of God.
Following verses will speak in support of the above subject:
Al-Anaam sura 06:
Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty: (75) When the night grew dark upon him he beheld a star. He said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set. (76) And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray. (77) And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord! This is greater! And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him). (78) Lo! I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters. (79).
-About Fires.
Satan was created out of fire;
Sad sura 38:
He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted? (75) He said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire, whilst him Thou didst create of clay. (76).
Al-Hijr sura 15:
Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered, (26) And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire. (27).
Ar-Rahman sura 55:
He created man of clay like the potter's, (14) And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire. (15).
– About The Sun,The Moon,The Planets&Stars.
Yunus sura 10:
He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge. (5).
Nooh sura 71:
And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp? (16).
Al-Anaam sura 06:
And He it is Who hath set for you the stars that ye may guide your course by them amid the darkness of the land and the sea. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. (97).
As-Saaffat sura 37:
Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets; (6).
No wonder why at Night night flying insects fly over the light lamp posts and or crashing on to cars head lights and wind screens? They are after light as well...!
I believe that God created Science – and that is a good thing. Science lets us explore this world and figure out what makes it work. Science is our way into understanding just how amazing this world and the God that created it are. Both can co-exist just fine. All the religious writings aren't perfect, as they were written by man – who is intrinsically flawed. But you can't convince me that everything in this world, from the creation of the solar system, earth, the birth of a baby, the evolution of species, etc. are all just a big coincidence. There is definitely some force out there that put this all together – God. Religion is just ones way of interpreting what that force is, and is often incorrect.
Why can't it be a coincidence? Take your own life, for example. If you had made a very slight decision 20 years ago to have toast for breakfast one morning instead of waffles your entire life could have turned out quite differently, right? If I had not made a random choice to rent a movie one night I would never have met my wife, for example. A slight, slight change in any number of conditions eons ago may have led to no life at all arising o this planet, or even a species of dinosaur rising to our position, sitting in front of their computers, debating just how likely their existence was.
Of course, religious folks may want to see everything as being ordained by God, but if you do that then you have to count the good turns of fortune with the bad, the ruined lives with the charmed ones and, in the long run, doesn't it make infinitely more sense that random chance is at play and not some plan that favors some greatly and others not at all?
NL – But where did the "conditions" that you speak of come from? There has to be a starting point somewhere. And no, I don't believe that I if I had toast instead of waffles, that my life would be that different. And I believe that love has as much to do with Science as it does chance. Love is about compatibility, about finding someone that meshes with you. Scientific factors that form our personalities play into this – and I believe Love is as much a chemica, scientificl thing as anything else. If you had not decided to rent that movie one night, I think good chances are you would have met someone else very similar to your wife that you would have fallen in love with as well. I love my wife more than anything, but I don't believe that I only had one chance to meet her. Our personalities mesh very well and that causes the emotion of love – all from Science. The probability is so small that everyone that is married just "happens" to run into the ONE and ONLY person they are supposed to be with the rest of their lives. I think that Science explains how people end up together – and not just humans, all species. of animals. However, I also believe that there is a greater force out there – God – that created these Scientific factors that help create Love, and all the other emotions that we experience. I think it takes a whole lot more "faith" to believe in random chance than it does God.
Also, I do agree with you that a "slight, slight" change of conditions eons ago could have significantly altered the chance of life on this planet. It's because of those slight chances that I do believe in God. The chance that all those conditions aligned so perfectly to create the existence of life on this planet is so minutely small, that it doesn't make sense to me. I think Science has a lot more faith than believers do.
@John
If something scientific does not make sense to you, you do not have to fall back to caveman thinking! All you have to do is study science more to understand how scientists came to believe whatever it is you don't currently understand. What you will also find is a very logical, traceable and transparent process of debate and change, that is nowhere to be found in the sky daddy with high priest tribal mythology business. In other words, no need to revert to backwards thinking when the way forward is highly available to all.
We make our own meaning and purpose. Is he really going to be so intellectually dishonest as to employ the old Appeal to Consequences fallacy?
Hrumph, Chopra's about as much a scientist as I am a priest...
Science estimates the earth at 4.5 billion years old. A human type creature appeared around 2.5 million years ago. Modern humans about 250,000 years ago to the present. The Neanderthals died off about 25,000 years ago.
Biblical Scholars estimate the earth and man are about 6000 years old ... give or take 6 days.
There is nothing in the Torah, Bible or the Qu'ran that talks about a second species of human (the Neanderthals). However Neanderthals existed, we have physical evidence.
Science gives us physical evidence. Religion does not.
Interesting. There actually are two diffent stories of man's creation in the Bible; one in chapter 1 and and another chapter two of Genesis. Really there are. I'm just playing though they are truly there. I doubt they apply to Neanderthals and modern man, but who knows. As for "Biblical Scholars" to be scientifically accurate you should truely state "some Biblical Scholars". It's all these non-specific over simplifications of the other side's view points, that make arguments seem easily won. I think thats more pride and politics than science though. I am a firm believer of evolution and the scientific record, but still recognize the early religious texts as only man's initial attempts to understand his world... flawed as the texts may be, there is still some value in them if only to show how we can think we are right and later find out different. There are probably many more modern religious people who feel the same. So I suspect you may be swatting at ghosts of the past, or those you will never have a hope of convincing anyway. Informative is good though. Religion does give us ideas that are not necessarily validated within or by the text, but which can be validated or discarded based on evidence external to the texts. They would not persist if most of the important ideas within them were false, unless of course you think the whole human race consists of idiots and always has. Somehow I find that scientifically hard to believe..
@world without end
You wrote ..."They would not persist if most of the important ideas within them were false, unless of course you think the whole human race consists of idiots and always has. Somehow I find that scientifically hard to believe." ...
Don't forget Reglious training begins at birth. "Some" children look up to their parents and want to copy them. Teaching, training or whatever you would like to call it, from such a young age is hard to undo. In my experience Sunday School at the Catholic Church doesn't encourage kids to question the Church and their teachings. I "believe" I could extrapolate that to "some other" religions. Whether the information is good or bad, true or false is irrelevant. It will persist because the indoctrination starts at such a young age, and "some" people won't question their religion. So the cycle continues ...
It will persist because there are true philosophical and moral truths imbedded, along with the ealy human misunderstandings.
Its those truths that hold the whole thing together.
If they all said lies like "you'll fall on your face every time you take a step", we would have been done with them long ago or we ourselves would have perished long ago.
Its only because people do take some sense of security in their groups of indoctrination, that prevents most people who barely have time to survive on a day to day basis, to want to take the time to challenge and possibly lose a source of social comfort, over what they also may deem to be other questionable items if doctrine. Unfortunately those truths are often hidden by the loud mouthed zealots and uniformed new believers that usually get all the air time.
Again though, without the truth that is there, the rest would be senseless and would have die out long before now.
At what point do we stop humoring people that believe in a nice man living in the sky that listens to their self involved prayers?
No invention of man has cause more pain, more discrimination, more hate, and has been used to justify more evil acts than Religion.
I realize it's good business, but so is drug dealing.
Amen.
Question for the scientists (and this is unbiased) – where is the proof that a god doesn't exist? Where did science begin? I want to believe that there was no creation but can't find a starting point.
Science, unlike mathematics (which is not science), does not prove anything. It is not the goal of science to prove anything. In fact, science can only "disprove" a theory, by showing inconsistency of the observed world with that theory. The aim of science is the gradual approach of a true description of the material world by constant revision and refinement of theories through experimental observation. However, even if science of the day may indicate that all current observations are consistent with a particular theory, we will never know if that theory is a complete and true description of the aspect of nature that the theory is meant to explain. One may criticize science for its indefinite character, but that very fact is its ultimate strength because this allows science to rise above dogma and belief, by self-correction and verification. Thus, it is meaningless to ask whether science can prove the existence or non-existence of god.
Much of the issue with the struggles between science and religion comes down to one question. Who has the burden of proof? Religious people ask scientists to prove there is no God (which is impossible to do). Scientists ask theologians to prove there is one (which, while possible, is completely up to God to do).
It comes down to the fact that science doesn't really care if there's a God or not. Scientists want to gain an understanding of our universe and how it works, and unless God is constantly changing the laws... he doesn't come into play. Theologians on the other hand, are entirely concerned with God's existence. So much so, that any cursory involvement in conversations of evolution and the big bang theory are fueled only because it comes into disagreement with a text supposedly proving god's existence.
What proof is there? The only proof science can offer is our current understanding of the universe. The tide comes in, the tide goes out, and never a miscommunication. And if we can describe that happening through our own laws.... then we have no need of the god hypothesis.
Science gives the lie to religious dogma, and in that sense the twain shall never meet. Chopra is saying he believes the universe is alive, intelligent, and aware of itself. It is an appealing belief system and if it proves to be true it makes the universe synonymous with god. There is nothing in science to refute such a belief. On the contrary, recent scientific advances quite naturally give rise to such speculation.
It only gives rise to that speculation among those that "want" there to be more than an uncaring universe. I've read nothing that actually indicates and intelligent agent at work. Mere mystery is merely proof of our continued ignorance of the world around us. The more we learn the more we understand how little we really know. The universe is fantastic in its scope and breadth and should keep us quite busy till the end of time should we be so lucky or smart enough to get there.
The word "science" means "knowledge." Throughout the ages, men and women of higher knowledge have been advancing the well-being of themselves and others in marvelous ways, thus proving the efficacy of spiritualized consciousness to help human existence. Yes, Science and spirituality are "friends" after all, but this recognition and practice is a neglected treasure in a society so materialized, animalizedand,often, religiously misdirected, as to be blinded by the senses and fear they worship instead of using those senses as agents to advance beyond the cave of ordinary thought.
Stubbycat-
All kinds of mystics, gnostics, and other religious types have claimed "knowledge" throughout the ages, but how they came about this knowledge differs greatly from how science acquires it, right? Also, what do you mean by society being 'animalized'?
Hey, this equipment sucks! I want my money back!
To deny science and its discoveries is short sighted. Consider that there are many things that obviously exist without any explanation of these things in the Bible: Other solar systems, atomic structure, sub atomic particles, a round planet, other cultures that existed at the same time, radar, treatment for diabetes...the list goes on. The Bible and the ultimate writer(s) of The Bible, whoever that may be, saw no need to explain, and in some cases, even mention these scientific breakthroughs. Yet, these things obviously exist. Therefore, The Bible not explaining everything significant in life is simply a trait The Bible has. This leads one to believe the policy of denial by some religious parties is unfounded. Just because The Bible does not explain or mention a scientific topic, doesn't mean it cannot be accepted. And just because something is scientifically proven doesn't mean God doesn't exist or that The Bible is not a credible source of spiritual enlightenment. The fact is misinterpretation of The Bible is what leads to denials of science, not flaws in The Bible's teachings. Perhaps everything in The Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally and the fact that The Bible doesn't include all info accurately isn't a disclaimer for its validity. This goes for other religious texts as well.
Child of a lesser God: You are indeed using a misnamed id as I suspect you and those like you are truly children of a greater God. If only we all could strive to see the order of things instead of just crying "I don't understand parable, allegory, mythology (in its true intent) and thus, since I don't understand, its couldn't possibly be my short coming, but someone elses." That argument is no different than the ones usually argued against, no matter the origin.
@Child of a Lesser God-'Perhaps'........'maybe'.....'possibly'.....all very elastic words for a text and a practice that are universally claimed to be inspired by god. What a horribly ineffecient way for an all powerful being to get his point across. Science is necessarily corrosive to religion and it is only with hindsight that any biblical claims map to real science and it's incredibly convenient to dismiss the scores of things that don't.
@BR
@Child of a Lesser God-'Perhaps'........'maybe'.....'possibly'.....all very elastic words for a text and a practice that are universally claimed to be inspired by god. What a horribly ineffecient way for an all powerful being to get his point across. Science is necessarily corrosive to religion and it is only with hindsight that any biblical claims map to real science and it's incredibly convenient to dismiss the scores of things that don't.
WORLD: Keep waiting for the first grade primer to make extreme complexity simple enough to meet your efficiency requirement. You'll be waiting a long time for both the science and religious editions. Religion and science were two branches of the same tree called philosophy or "the search for the truth" before politics of the Roman Church and Empire kicked the science part out in the West. They still are two branches of the same tree for those that are capable of understanding that and who have not misapplied original intent to their own device. Of course we know there were plenty of those who misused religion, but what about the scientists that brought us the Nazi medical experiments, their extermination of the handicapped, gays, gypsys and the Jewish, based on a misapplied version of Social Darwinism where eugenics was applied even in the USA and other countries as well. What about mass planned communist starvations to reengineer the Soviet economy or Pol Pot's similar reengineering in Cambodia's killing fields. What about the creation of poison gas, napalm and the atom bomb etc. etc. Religion didn't create them, science and scientific politics did. You're sadly mistaken if you think science has all the answers and eats away at true religious thought without sometimes making big mistakes itself, that true religious morality also must eat away at. Scientific infallibility is a myth in itself... for anyone with an ounce of historical knowledge... and its time it was called out. It can only disprove what isn't true in religion and if you think religions have hung around for thousands of years because everything they promoted was untrue, then you have a sad limitation in your scientific understanding of how ideas persist in societies.
Now both sides gurgle out some more half thought criticisms and pat yourself on the back. Its no different when either side uses such tactics.
Science and religion were both intended to promote the truth and must work together to keep us all from going crazy. The faults are on both sides and nothing will change until folks start looking for common ground anchored in truth, instead of eternally nitpicking each others shortcomings and promoting their own thoughts as infallible. Its not always easy. It certainly isn't always pretty, But it is becoming more and more necessary to avoid further or worse scientific wrong turns like those mentioned above.
If I may quote an author I'm sure you all have heard of:
"No man who ever lived knows any more about the hereafter than you and I"-Edgar Allan Poe
ie: if anyone tells you of what comes after death (such as religion), don't be so quick to believe them. If you look at history, religion basically spread after astronomers started predicting things in the sky, claiming a god told them of it. Then when it happened, of course people believed.
Logical explanations frighten religious people, but shouldn't. If God created all things, then God created logic as well. There is no reason why science should be rejected by the religious. If science exists, God must have created it. Right? The reason religious people fear science is because of their own inability to admit they may not have it exactly right. It's like a very religious man with his doctorate in Biblical studies once told me, "God created man. Man created religion." What he meant by this is that religion is flawed, because it has been corrupted by man. Many religious people simply want to believe that all that needs to be known is known and operate under this assumption through their allotted paths to God. This is damaging to the human race. God set science up so that we can grow as his creations and so we can discover more about his universe. To ignore these discoveries is to mock God.
But isn't the Bible a product of religion, and thus just as flawed as everything else man thinks about some real being called God?
Hi NL
Yes but just because folks can't be right all the time doesn't make it better to boo hoo and quit trying. Trying to convince others that they should also boo hoo and quit trying to understand, is just as damaging or maybe even more damaging than the damage that those called religious have done. It's just more subtle, but no less damaging.
World Without End – Scientific Pantheism – Philosophic Restore-
I'm actually arguing that the very notion that a god named YHWH actually exists is a product of flawed religion, right? So, if we peel back this many layers to the spirituality onion should we even articulate anything as being related to something called God, if God is totally the product of a flawed, human creation?
NL.
Mankind is consisting of Body,Spirit and Soul the last of which has control of the faith of those two but by controlling it as the peeling evil as peeling onions a man would reach the spiritual core of becoming pure spiritual that can make use of senses more than those material ones....refer to (Terror free verses below);
Yusuf sura 12:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
I do not exculpate myself. Lo! the (human) soul enjoineth unto evil, save that whereon my Lord hath mercy. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (53).
An-Naziat sura 79:
But as for him who feared to stand before his Lord and restrained his soul from lust, (40) Lo! the Garden will be his home. (41).
Al-Fajr sura 89:
But ah! thou soul at peace! (27) Return unto thy Lord, content in His good pleasure! (28) Enter thou among My bondmen! (29) Enter thou My Garden! (30).
Al-Ankaboot sura 29:
Recite that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship. Lo! worship preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, but verily remembrance of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do. (45).
Al-Ankaboot sura 29: (Moderate Terror)
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. (46) In like manner We have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom We gave the Scripture aforetime will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And none deny Our revelations save the disbelievers. (47) And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood. (48) But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny Our revelations save wrong-doers. (49) And they say: Why are not portents sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Portents are with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner. (50) Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto thee the Scripture which is read unto them? Lo! herein verily is mercy, and a reminder for folk who believe. (51) Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Allah sufficeth for witness between me and you. He knoweth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who believe in vanity and disbelieve in Allah, they it is who are the losers. (52).
NL: YHWH as a name was even reluctantly used because it was felt impossible for man to assign a name to God because to do so would limit our perception of IT improperly. IT is beyond our full perceptions to understand the infinite greatness of God, so we will always fall short in explanation, but that our problem, not what we call God's. So our perceptions will always be limited by our own limited brains, but that is our problem in perception. Imperfect definition, does not imply non-existence.
Muneef – thanks for the text.
World Without End – Scientific Pantheism – Philosophic Restore-
I was just using 'YHWH' because saying 'a god named God' sounds a bit awkward, don't you think?
However, doesn't the argument that ' our perceptions will always be limited by our own limited brains' simply speak to the fact that we have imaginations large enough to see the possibility that so much more exists outside even our natural perception? Don't get me wrong, I know that a great deal is hidden from our limited senses, but that's why we invented telescopes and microscopes, for example. Who knows? One day we may even invent a god detector, although some may imagine that gods are beyond any possible detection. That's where I see imagination coming into play. To believe that some things will always be beyond our reach requires faith, I think.
Muneef-
"Mankind is consisting of Body,Spirit and Soul the last of which has control of the faith of those two"
This sounds like Plato's threefold nature of the soul: 'reason', 'emotion' and 'willpower.' We could also compare that with the later Christian view of God as a trinity of different aspects. Id, ego, superego. Interesting how we like to divide personalities into three dueling parts. Almost like we imagine some kind of democratic principle going on inside of us. I see religions seeking to bring the 'willpower', or 'spirited' side of ourselves out over our emotional and logical sides, would you say?
If there is a Will there is always a Way.
NL.
Mankind and many earthly creatures were created of Wet Earth..and then as a drop in a safe lodging,when that goes through all the fashioning process then God breathed into him of His Spirit and appointed us senses...?
Terror free Quran !
Al-Furqan 25:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful. (54).
Al-Noor sura 24:
Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. (45) Verily We have sent down revelations and explained them. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path. (46).
Al-Mumenoon sura 23:
Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; (12) Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; (13) Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! (14) Then lo! after that ye surely die. (15) Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again). (16).
As-Sajda sura 32:
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay; (7) Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid; (8) Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His Spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! (9).
NL.
Seen verses above about Body being created in the womb and then Spirit Breathed in to the body..And third is Soul which becomes with childhood ( The I/Me )...this is about mankind and not seeing it relative to God being three? God is One and not three...God is Spirit as he breaths into us of his Spirit,God has a soul as he says I/Me,God has no material body and only of light being the light of heavens and earth.
Al-Noor sura 24:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah setteth forth for mankind similitudes, for Allah is Knower of all things. (35)...
NL.
God is light and therefore has sent his light and enlightenments to his creatures,those who made choices,as a guidance for saving them out of the darkness of life, generation after generation.
Kindly read the following (Moderate Terror verses) about all related light of God !!
An-Nisa sura 04:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a clear light; (174).
Al-Maeda sura 05:
O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture, (15) Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path. (16).
Al-Anaam sura 06:
And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling. (91).
Az-Zumar sura 39:
Is he whose bosom Allah hath expanded for the surrender (unto Him), so that he followeth a light from his Lord, (as he who disbelieveth)? Then woe unto those whose hearts are hardened against remembrance of Allah. Such are in plain error. (22) Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah's reminder. Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. (23).
Ash-Shura sura 42:
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise. (51) And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path, (52) The path of Allah, unto Whom belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Do not all things reach Allah at last. (53).
Al-Hadid sura 57:
On the day when thou (Muhammad) wilt see the believers, men and women, their light shining forth before them and on their right hands, (and wilt hear it said unto them): Glad news for you this day: Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein ye are immortal. That is the supreme triumph. (12).
Al-Hadid sura 57:
O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah and put faith in His messenger. He will give you twofold of His mercy and will appoint for you a light wherein ye shall walk, and will forgive you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful; (28) That the People of the Scripture may know that they control naught of the bounty of Allah, but that the bounty is in Allah's hand to give to whom He will. And Allah is of Infinite Bounty. (29).
Al-Maeda sura 05:
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (44).
Al-Tawba sura 09:
Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. (32).
Muneef-
"God is light"
Yet, from a scientific perspective, God must be hiding in the shadows because he is certainly not to be found in plain sight. Not as something that cannot be explained as something natural. You may wish to call nature 'God', and that's fine in a poetic sense, but if you do that then you can't attach any supernatural attributes to what we call 'nature.' There cannot be anything 'super', or above nature within nature, right?
Gotta go for now. Fishin' weekend. Been a pleasure talking to you.
NL.
Enjoy your weekend.
I was saying is that God is a Major Force that had created all forces there are and therefore control and lead all those forces to do as he wants or pleases...nothing to him is impossible he is the Nature of all the Nature...we all belongth to him...
NL: Muneef- "God is light"
Yet, from a scientific perspective, God must be hiding in the shadows because he is certainly not to be found in plain sight. Not as something that cannot be explained as something natural. You may wish to call nature 'God', and that's fine in a poetic sense, but if you do that then you can't attach any supernatural attributes to what we call 'nature.' There cannot be anything 'super', or above nature within nature, right?
WORLD: You hit the problem of perception and human's ego getting the better of them again. We are not the ones to define what natural is. Just like we often limit our definition of God, we often seem to limit our definition of natural, to just what we understand, which is again something different for each person. Just because we can't yet understand something, does not mean it is supernatural. It just means what some might call supernatural, is really superstupidhumanperception (not to be confused with supercalifragilisticexpialidocious of course:-)... or just beyond what we can perceive, which is again different for each person.
Even if you were a super smart scientist... aware of all the infinite complexities that exist within all scientific knowledge... the effects they have instantaneously within all nature around us, would be way beyond your perception and would result in what limited minds, might like to call the chaos effect. That causes your "shadows" for normal human perception, as actually practiced under normal circ-umstances... to be infinite, as opposed to the neat tiny bundle we might think of when we say the word science. So there are still an awful lot of "shadows", as you call them, for the version you defined as God, to exist in.
Of course we should give a little more credit and understand that the concept of God, by whatever name we give it... exists in all of what what we already know based on science as well. If we can't give the God concept... credit for the scientific principles we do know... of course its easy for lesser minds deny the existence of the unknown alone.
Its one thing to know, all that science knows, difficult as that is for average humans... its a whole different and infinitely larger thing to make it work, day in and day out, on the grand infinite scale it does...and please try not to think of IT as the Wizard of Oz, behind the curtain pushing buttons and pulling levers. Leave our human conceit out of the definition.
Its actually kind of funny to me, that humanists deny a concept of God defined to be a human like creature in control. You would think that worshiping such a concept would be the definition of humanism, which really it kind of is from a different perspective. Yet some either deny a concept of God based on a human like diety... without logically understanding it has to be something more than that... or worse only see a chaotic uncaring universe..., without understanding the complexity of the infinite miracles, defined by science alone, not to mention the influence of noy yet known to science, occurences... that have occurred for billions of years to end up in their creation and also supporting their every day survival.
Darwin and the Bible can still be correct. My uncle, a strong Christian, once told me: "The story of the book of Genesis is much more important than the details." Maybe a few details of Genesis are not correct. Does that mean the whole Bible is wrong? By no means!
I agree with you on this, Evan. People are convinced that they must take everything in the Bible literally, when what the Bible is, is a book written by man's hand...a flawed hand. This doesn't mean the God it is trying to explain, in its imperfect way, deserves less credit.
Perfectly reasonable statement. Thank you.
A few million fundamentalists of course will completely disagree. For those that are not literalists, the bible can be pretty much interpreted to mean anything they desire.
You run into a major problem when "interpreting" the bible.
Misinterpretation...
Everyone thinks THEY are right, so how do you validate that you are? You ask god.....and "he" apparently "tells" you, or you "feel" that you're right. Which is the EXACT thing that everyone thinks....
If you were god wouldn't you be mad that everyone was misinterpreting "your word"? "He" COULD just literally tell us or demonstrate what he wants from us, but he would rather be cryptic about it?
And then to further confirm that you are correct or right, you use faith.... the opposite of evidence....
Sounds a bit risky....
But nice try.
@FACE – Faith is the beginning of proof or stimulus to proof, not the opposite of proof. No scientist sets off to prove something through experiments unless they have some faith that they are headed in the right direction to start with.
Dellusion is the opposite of proof.
Dellusion is what those have who can see no value in faith, even as they are touting the values of their own faith...
be it atheist or non-atheist.
There would truely be misu-nderst-anding if the scribes had to deal with these filters...
MarkinFL: Even for literalists, the Bible may still mean any thing they want, without knowledge of surrounding history etc. Even then, ther are con-trad-ictions, plus parables and allegory meant to be va-gue to those without "poetic" minds; something a literalists mighty not have.
Literal word is sometimes misun-derstood due to time, culture etc. For instance: if some one was g -a y in the 1800's, they were merely happy. Love Preference had nothing to do with the word.
Some expressions also mean different things in different cultures. Lets not even talk about tra-nslating word by word vs. perceived intended meaning and how all that can get dis-torted.
Muneef, have you ever tried to count the total number of threats included in your posts? It's a big number.
I don't respond well to threats, so I will respond with one of my favorite Biblical quotes: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, because I am the meanest son of a bi-tch in the valley.
And just to round it all out with an atheist, I'll respond with one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:
"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
@AmazingSteve: Well said. I would like to reference the great philosopher Carlin: Religion is bullsh-t. It's all bullsh-t, and it's bad for you.
Eric G.
Those treats you speak of are not my made but are from the Holy Book,The Quran, and those are the Words of Our Creator's Warnings addressed to us all Mankind and even Jinn living on this globe.
Ar-Rahman sura 55:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
We shall dispose of you, O ye two dependents (man and jinn). (31) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (32) O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction. (33) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (34) There will be sent, against you both, heat of fire and flash of brass, and ye will not escape. (35) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (36).
Sorry Muneef, if your beliefs demand that you make threats to command obedience, you and your beliefs are equal to those of a schoolyard bully. You have one of two choices.
1. Stop posting hateful messages that threaten others and try using logic and reason to express your belief.
2. Continue to post hateful messages that threaten others. You will then officially be considered a threat to the rest of us and must be dealt with accordingly.
You say that your religion is a religion of peace? If so, why all the commanded obedience under penalty of pain? Doesn't sound peacefull to me. Sounds more like slavery.
Please pick one of the two options and go with it. We will then all know how to address you in the future. Either as a rational person who can have a rational, intelligent debate, or as a childish bully who needs a good span-king. The choice is yours.
Eric G.
As said treats are addressed to all including Muslims who are not committed Muslims. Now it is obvious you as well have used words to treaten me personally I would stop using verses...it is because my English is not strong to debate and make my self clear and that is why been quoting verses that speaks of the same subject...
So as seems if all hate my quoting and that I can not express my self as should,the only choice I have is to stop completely participating in your blogs and rather go to look after my business and family, I think I have left words and links enough for any one who wants to find out what they want to know....so long...
Eric G. Terror free Quran verses...
NL. Verses about using our minds and senses.
Al-Rad sura 13:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Alif. Lam. Mim. Ra. These are verses of the Scripture. That which is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the Truth, but most of mankind believe not. (1) Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord. (2) And He it is Who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covereth the night with the day. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought. (3) And in the Earth are neighbouring tracts, vineyards and ploughed lands, and date-palms, like and unlike, which are watered with one water. And we have made some of them to excel others in fruit. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who have sense. (4).
Muneef-
See, on the surface, I read that quote as praising farmers who can irrigate their land well, saying effectively that they have good 'sense'. 'Sense' as in reasoning ability and knowledge, 'knowing one's business', but not 'sense' as in perceiving something otherwise hidden. Is that close?
NL.
Senses is normally the hearing(listening),seeing (reading),touching(feeling),tasting,smelling and those have a role in creating ones back mind to think and come out with a conclusion of an idea through which he becomes to find out and work out a way to personalize as your own experiment or experience. Such as these has to be gained from reading,learning,experimenting...it is through that activity of thinking,mankind becomes inspired either by signs or revelations during being awake or as dreams during sleep... Depending on his faith and belief.. Have you ever faced a moment where you have forgotten your name or your where about's or a word or a name on the tip of your tongue but can't seem to be able to say it?? Well that is when God warns that it is easy for him to wipe all that you in store in your mind and the more you come closer to God the more you get back as inspiration or revelation and the farther you go from him the more you lose than gain that data in stored and more deprived from inspiration,revelation...
Muneef-
"Senses is normally the hearing(listening),seeing (reading),touching(feeling),tasting,smelling"
See, I read that sura as praising farmers who were 'sensible' enough to use shrewd means of irrigation.
"Have you ever faced a moment where you have forgotten your name or your where about's or a word or a name on the tip of your tongue but can't seem to be able to say it?? Well that is when God warns that it is easy for him to wipe all that you in store in your mind"
Memory lapses are just as normal as computer 'freezes'. Sometimes the signals get crossed. We understand how this works through studying folks who've had strokes. If you have a lot of them you might want to get your blood pressure checked, or get your neck veins a ultrasound check for blockage.
However, isn't using this to illustrate a quality of God, as you did, not a form of mythology? After all, how far is this from calling rainbows in the sky signs of God's promise, or calling raindrops 'God's tears?'
NL.
There is a scientific explanation to every thing as a reason but after all it is the order of God. Have seen them trying to make a scientific explanation for when Moses struck the sea shore and it was split open in to several paths for the Exodus of the Children of Israel as being strong winds that did that?
Just wonder what their explanation to that rock which was struck by Moses and supplied the children of Israel all the water they needed?
Al-Shuara sura 26:
Then We inspired Moses, saying: Smite the sea with thy staff. And it parted, and each part was as a mountain vast. (63).
Al-Baqara sura 02:
And when Moses asked for water for his people, We said: Smite with thy staff the rock. And there gushed out therefrom twelve springs (so that) each tribe knew their drinking-place. Eat and drink of that which Allah hath provided, and do not act corruptly, making mischief in the earth. (60).
Muneef-
You're as.suming a literally true story, and not a myth explaining some particular spring that seems to come from a rock, right?
Ask yourself, are there such stories as myths that are not literally true, yet are told to convey some moral? If the ancient world are not filled with such myths than does that mean the the Greek, Babylonian and Egyptian gods were as real as God? Choosing to believe one set of tales is factual while all others are just mythical requires an act of faith, as no evidence supports such a judgment, right? The atheist position is usually to conclude that they are all myth.
NL.
Agree with you that if you have no firm believe or faith in that it becomes as myth and therefore wouldn't blame you, but all I was saying is that God is a Major Force that had created all forces there are and therefore control and lead all those forces to do as he wants or pleases...nothing to him is impossible he is the Nature of all the Nature...we all belongth to him...
I can't prove his existence to you but know with full belief that he exists and believe that all the stories told in the Quran were no Myths but facts that mankind always wanted to escape it burying their heads in the sands...
NL.
Just wonder what you people says about some unexplained powers by few famous magicians (Chris&David Copperfeild) what do you think the nature of their forces if non believe in God and obviously not in Satan? What ever unbelievable acts they made unless you consider it tricks and unreal?
@Muneef: i, for one, appreciate you posting and explaining suras from the Qu'ran, and providing fascinating information about it, and Islam in general. If more in the West, and specifically America, heard from more people like you in various forums, social media, and other media venues, there'd be hella less mistrust of the 1.2 (or is it 1.6?) billion Muslim people in the world. The acts of a few hundreds, or thousands, or even tens of thousands, should not be allowed to smear the name of more than one billion decent people.
@Eric G.: threatened? really?
STFU. and GTFO, while you're at it.
Al-Anaam sura 06:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered. (38) Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will He sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path. (39).
Hud sura 11:
And there is not a beast in the earth but the sustenance thereof dependeth on Allah. He knoweth its habitation and its repository. All is in a clear Record. (6) And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days – and His Throne was upon the water – that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is not but evident magic. (7).
Hud sura 11:
Beside Him. So (try to) ci-rcu-mvent me, all of you, give me no res-p-ite. (55) Lo! I have put my trust in Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Not an animal but He doth grasp it by the forelock! Lo! my Lord is on a straight path. (56).
Al-Noor sura 24:
Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. (45) Verily We have sent down revelations and explained them. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path. (46).
Ar-Rahman sura 55:
Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (13) He created man of clay like the potter's, (14) And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire. (15) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (16).
Al-Araf sura 07:
And We have given you (mankind) power in the earth, and appointed for you therein livelihood. Little give ye thanks! (10) And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. (11) He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. (12) He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded. (13) He said: Reprieve me till the day when they are raised (from the dead). (14) He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved. (15) He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. (16) Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee). (17) He said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you. (18).
Sad sura 38:
When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire, (71) And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate, (72) The angels fell down prostrate, every one, (73) Saving Iblis; he was scornful and became one of the disbelievers. (74) He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted? (75) He said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire, whilst him Thou didst create of clay. (76) He said: Go forth from hence, for lo! thou art outcast, (77) And lo! My curse is on thee till the Day of Judgment. (78) He said: My Lord! Reprieve me till the Day when they are raised. (79) He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved (80) Until the Day of the time appointed. (81) He said: Then, by Thy might, I surely will beguile them every one, (82) Save Thy single-minded slaves among them. (83) He said: The Truth is, and the Truth I speak, (84) That I shall fill hell with thee and with such of them as follow thee, together. (85).
Al-Jathiya sura 45:
These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe? (6) Woe unto each sinful liar, (7) Who heareth the revelations of Allah recive unto him, and then continueth in pride as though he heard them not. Give him tidings of a painful doom. (8) And when he knoweth aught of Our revelations he maketh it a jest. For such there is a shameful doom. (9) Beyond them there is hell, and that which they have earned will naught avail them, nor those whom they have chosen for protecting friends beside Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom. (10) This is guidance. And those who disbelieve the revelations of their Lord, for them there is a painful doom of wrath. (11).
Earth after created was inhabited by Jinn who were a nation created from fire and Ablees(Satan)was one of them...
Then when they have corrupted and were punished by God,for which God created Mankind to inhabit earth but was rejected by Ablees (Satan) who said you created me from fire and created him from mud....
Muneef, I appreciate your apparent knowledge of the Koran, but you must understand that words from a book that someone you are trying to convince does not believe in mean nothing to that person. Therefore your self-satisfied knowledge of your religion only perpetuates your beliefs, but does nothing to prove anything you are saying. Furthermore, any oohs and ahhs you are trying to get will come only from other Muslims. This basic idea is true for a person of any religion trying to convince someone of that religion by using nothing but that religion's writings.
Water to whine.
Was not trying to convince any one or prove any thing but rather was reflecting our belief for more understanding of Muslims beliefs...as you said some would read and mean nothing to them but some would read and rethink their beliefs or store it in backbof their heads for another day when start thinking deep..
Muneef-
Does Chopra's message jive with your, or any, Muslim beliefs?
NL.
Did not understand much from above as my English is not much but if I got it right of what he speaks. The Quran does encourage us to think rethink,search research God creations to understand the power and to strengthen our faith, God insist that we should be using our senses to learn,would quote you a two verses here out of many explaining that although I was asked not to quote Quran verses here as seems few consider quoting of Quran verses as an act of terror as it seems the verses has terrorized their guilty consciences and prefer not to see or read what might make the feel so guilty !
Al-Araf sura 07:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Recite unto them the tale of him to whom We gave Our revelations, but he sloughed them off, so Satan overtook him and he became of those who lead astray. (175) And had We willed We could have raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his own lust. Therefor his likeness is as the likeness of a dog: if thou attackest him he panteth with his tongue out, and if thou leavest him he panteth with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of the people who deny Our revelations. Narrate unto them the history (of the men of old), that haply they may take thought. (176) Evil as an example are the folk who denied Our revelations, and were wont to wrong themselves. (177) He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray – they indeed are losers. (178) Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle – nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful. (179).
Al-Rad sura 13:
And He it is Who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covereth the night with the day. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought. (3).
Muneef-
"I was asked not to quote Quran verses here as seems few consider quoting of Quran verses as an act of terror as it seems the verses has terrorized their guilty consciences and prefer not to see or read what might make the feel so guilty!"
Quoting from the Quran an act of 'terror', really? That seems way over the top to me. I see you as merely trying to educate people of the Muslim stance, however many of us have our own copies and can look up suras for ourselves. Taken in isolation most posters here may read into your quotes messages you do not intend. So, what you can add is your interpretation of what the suras mean, or how they should be applied. That would be a more effective contribution to any discussion you wish to join here, I believe. Just a thought. 🙂
Now, are meditation and yoga legitimate ways for a Muslim to broaden their view of God, and are there ways you wouldn't feel comfortable using?
NL.
Thank you for the tip.
Now you asked the following
( Now, are meditation and yoga legitimate ways for a Muslim to broaden their view of God, and are there ways you wouldn't feel comfortable using)?
Our meditation and yoga is different than of far Eastern countries...
Our Islamic meditation and yoga are called the Night Diker (Remembrance and Prayers on ablution terms) Quran is recited or praises,graces,thanks are repeated for a number of times. Then there are the activities of our worship prayers in between standing,bowing,kneeling,touching the ground with our foreheads in respect and full submission to the creator in the full peace of the Midnight for two or three hours..
The author was speaking in general with out pointing out any religion but just saying that we are to do some thinking of ours as meditation on our own outer worship houses and their tight regulations. Privacy is essential to gain spiritual peace for meditations either ways...
Author has expressed the belief in existence of a Super power that control all forces that are known or unknown to us.. Therefore I agree with what he said in a Muslim way of viewing meditation and yoga. Above agreeing to all that he said I applaud him for the last paragraph....(We are here for some thing and not waste).
Declared Terror free Quran for the sake of (Eric G).
Al-Mumenoon (The Believers) sura 23:
(In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (115) Now Allah be Exalted, the True King! There is no God save Him, the Lord of the Throne of Grace. (116).)
The urge to think and use senses;
Quoted from; Al-Rad sura 13:
(herein verily are portents for people who take thought. (3)).
(herein verily are portents for people who have sense. (4)).
Guardian Angels for true believers;
(For him are angels ranged before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's command. Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah willeth misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him. (11).)
All creations and forces on heavens and earths falls prostrate and get things done and created by God's order willingly or unwillingly;
(And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours. (15).)
Fussilat sura 41:
(Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient. (11).)
Sufi
Muneef,
Do you know much about the Sufi?
Don't they believe in all religions seeking to know the same God?
Are they accepted or shunned by Islamic sects and if so which?
Thanks
World Without End – Scientific Pantheism – Philosophic Restore.
Sorry just noticed that now...You asked for Sufi Sufism in Islam, not much I am aware of them but as understand they are more mystic about their belief, and do things that are not told of in the Quran but created or invented by them which we call (Bodaa) and we say behind every (Bodaa) there is (Zalalah) meaning that behind every thing invented into religion could lead to become astray from the real religion...on those bases they were not in good terms with the rest of the Islamic world..but not much I have about them than being mystic..
Muneef-
Ah, so you have your own forms. Even the act of praying repeatedly, or chanting, can be a form of meditation, yes? As a former Catholic I can attest to the fact that reciting the rosary does put you in a meditative state as well.
Thanks Muneef. It seems to be the same in many religions, that the last "law givers" want their version or experience to remain the only one forever. From my perspective, and I realize I am just am man with limited perceptive abilities, it seems like such thoughts or fears about learning more from God, limits what we think God is capable of communicating. I believe we should show more faith in God and less in Satan, so to speak. I would think God would have to make revelation to humans, as they are capable of understanding for their time and situations, to be effective. So that the string of prophets or God's revelations would have to continue as humans become capable of understanding more. I think I remember reading something about that, in my studies of Islam.... about their being a string of prophets from Abraham on (praise be upon them all) and that the string would continue; but perhaps that was in Sufism or a similar branch of Islam that I read that?
I will say, that when I first started reading the Koran as a younger man with much less historical and religious perspective, the verses that some have here noted as threatening or hateful put me off a bit as well. They reminded me of similar verses in the Bible, especially the judgemental clannish survival verses of the Old Testament and the verses in Revelations that are suspected to be a veiled lashing out, at the result of the Roman persecutions under Emperor Nero.
However after reading more on other religions and gaining a wider perspective of historical times in different regions of the world, I was later able to look beyond those hateful verses, or their hateful parts. In my human limitations, I believe and have read from others that those hateful parts were meant more for defensive survival. So I can now see the other truths beyond them, that are surely shown.
I think there is also a verse in the Bible book of Revelations that says something like "let no man add or detract from what is written here" which would seem to invalidate all thought forever more thereafter, including the Koran, as well as all the Christian translations and mistranslations of the Bible over the years that followed. That doesn't seem to be very God like from my perspective, but more on the lines of protecting the human ego of those that wrote the original words.
I do know that the Koran often speaks about respecting other "peoples of the book' which at the time I believe were referring to Jews, Christains and even Zoroastrians (one of the often forgotten root faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam along with the Egyptian and Sumerian religions). Stating that "peoples of the book" should be respected, shows a respectful humility we all might benefit from, in addition to the many other morally good insights in the Koran. Western Civilization also owes a lot to Islam for maintaining the early pre-Christian scientific and philosophic knowledge of the Greeks etc., until Western Eurpoe was able to pull itself out of the mud huts and restrictive church control of the European Dark Ages, and understand its usefulness.
I hope I haven't said anything offensive as that was not my intent. I does sadden me that there are people of all religions today, willing to violate many of the higher aspects of their faiths, to make war on each other, all sides killing so many innocents who have often done no harm to anyone and who usually only wish to peacefully survive from day to day. It also saddens me that we spend so much money on weapons of war, knowing that as soon as we make a better one, the others will only come up with even better ones causing us to have to spend more and more, that could be better used on more productive causes. Who can eat a bomb. The US and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, essentially bankrupted the USSR that way, and I fear that some of our current world economic crisis may also be the result of similar foolishness, though with what is going on in the Middle East and North Africa now, there may be as usual consequences far beyond what our little minds could forsee from all sides in 2001.
How much money, and more importantly people, could be saved if we used today's technological advances in promoting peace and understanding instead? Yet we harden our hearts like the Pharoh did to Moses.... and posts that follow this will probably do as well. Thanks for your time and undertanding.
World Without End – Scientific Pantheism – Philosophic Restore.
Not to worry you were alright here. About the people of the Book in Islam is relative to the following Four Holy Books of religions;
Torah,by Moses
Zaboor by David
Angeel by Jesus
Quran by Muhammed
All above are the people of the books that are mentioned.
Your other comments are right that money rather wasted on killing mankind rather than feeding them and spreading peace and such acts only deprive the majority of people from their money infavour of minority who enjoys the earnings of wars.
But today since Tunisia issue we see there is a change a new armies came up which we call the bare feet army (Civilians) taking over the long lasted Idoles they had ruling them unjustly.
NL.
Been nice talking to you and hope you would not hesitate asking me again any relative issues. Hope to meet you again here or some other blog.take care.
Fajir prayer and need to catch up with it good bye.
Yes Muneef. I feel for the people stuggling to obtain fairness in society. The rich and powerful always seem to think they can get away with more and more, but God always has away of putting things back into balance. If only we would learn not to upset that balance to start with, it would seem so much pain and suffering could be avoided. Thanks for helping those who wish to better understand your and their world.
Science and religion co-exist just fine. God continually creates through evolution. Jesus Chris is the next evolution of man. What Jesus Christ is, we will yet be.
Simple.
Jesus Chris is the guy down near the pier asking for handouts with the really long hair...
As for science & religion co-existing, yes, they do in as much as actors and the characters they play do. One is real, and the other is fiction or at least part-fabrication or embelishment of the truth. Science says 'This happens, and through these repeatable experiments we believe this is why" and religion says "This happens, and through these unverifyable, mystical, never before seen & never seen again, but divinely inspired parables we believe this is why".
Yeah, I'll stick to science.
"Science and religion co-exist just fine." Right, as long as religion can continue to subjugate others!
"In god we trust," "so help me god," "under one god..." What a pile of dung!
Sheep are sheep!
Deepak is a self promoter with no shame!
GOD is BS: Sheep is Sheep
WORLD: What ever side of the fence they are on. Perhaps some human perception, or maybe the actual desire to limit concepts in order to disprove them, is BS. Not very scientific.