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February 17th, 2011
11:18 AM ET
Architect to remove ‘crosses’ from Toledo elementary schoolAn architect is removing a design element from a new elementary school that looked liked the Christian cross. "I actually have not noticed a cross," said Mona-Mae Mitchell. "Is that a light pole?" Some have never noticed the design at the Toledo Public Schools' new Beverly Elementary School construction site at the corner of Glanzman Road and Detroit Avenue, the former location of old Bowsher High School. Others say the designs look like Christian crosses. Read the full story on FOXTOLEDO.com
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Brickwork making ; lay down your own stones - residence renovations suggestions ; brick directing approaches for brand-new and outdated Brickwork; yard walls guide : Brickwork;Brickwork
@evolvedDNA..God doesn't need money but the church needs it. It may have been commercialized by people or groups of people but it doesn't necessarily nullify God existence.
As I've said in my previous response, all of those you've mentioned (Christian schools, Book stores,churches, bibles in every hotel room, billboards) are just physical evidence how overwhelmingly believers outnumbered non-believers. They have all their righ to "beg" as what you call it, as much as you have yours to say "no".
And ironically your arguments have just contradicted your belief as an Atheist. You've had only made God to look like a mob leader and an extorionist but you didn't only fail prove His non-existence but otherwise confirmed it.
I could careless about (Atheist) billboard and other sinages specially when they are not erected within the vicinity or in front of our church.
My point is, we are a free country, you can do whatever you want in your house and I can do what ever I want in mine. Let's just keep it that way.
It should had been as God's existence.
and
I meant, otherwise confirmed His existence.
mykids.. God appears to wants most of his money back by the sound of the Christian beggars on TV every morning and Sunday.. may be you did not get the correct copyright and he wants it all back? point is we have enough god..Christian schools, Book stores,churches, bibles in every hotel room, billboards.. Recently a group put up a billboard that said you could be good with out god...it had to come down because of complaints of offense ..so you are as sensitive to the same issues. You have had your own way using fear and intimidation for so long it hurts when those tactics no longer work for you
MR C.. What are you claiming to be the immorality that the atheists have spread around the world? Do you believe the current crop of religious regimes are moral? look at the horrific deeds they do. Even the catholic church.. if you consider the Vatican as a nation. has recently had some horrific deeds delivered to its door, and it has shirked its responsibility in favor of protecting its own skin, tell me that was" moral". I have the same ideals that Christians believe. except i do not have to have the fear of some supernatural being to do it.. Atheists only have one thing in common with each other we have see no evidence for god and see no reason for him/her to exist. If you think that it is more moral to have a supernatural belief.... let me ask you this ..if evidence was presented tomorrow that proved god did not exist..and it was accepted by the religious..would you go put an kill, ra-pe, steal, just because you had no boss to watch over you... humanity is far stronger than religion luckily and I hope it can survive the onslaught of crazy that the current god wars are bringing.
EvolvedDNA: Completely agree. Vultures are monogamous and have been known to attack other vultures based on infidelity. Dolphins have come to the aid of humans by attacking sharks. Wolves mate for life and take an active role in raising their pups. Other primates understand the concept of justice. I guess these are just the animals that have been reached by the "Christian ministry."
Heck, I'm an atheist and they just look like architectural embellishments to me. Just save the construction money and spend it on actual education.
This was misunderstood in Toledo as well. The architect is paying for the change, not the school district.
The architect must throw away all his dollar bill on the garbage, it has "In God We Trust" printed on it.
I'm surprised it hasn't been replaced with a spire or minaret. If you're so concerned about this because the schools receive tax money, then where is the outrage over the Gulen Movement in American charter schools which receive tax payer dollars??? Why doesn't CNN step up to the plate and investigate the Gulen Movement? FOX won't, because they're controlled by a Saudi prince.
Looks like two "T"s for TOLEDO to me. What I find completely disturbing is this trend that we should be mindful of everyone's beliefs EXCEPT Christians. It's totally ridiculous. (and no, I'm not a Christian)
I will not be convinced of Atheists dedication or conviction to degrade, u-n-dignify or even illiminate religious symbols. Not by removing crosses in schools; Not by removing religious synages in public transfort; and not by making their own version of Christmas billboards.
I'm convinced, only when, they throw away every single dollar bill that they have. Until they do that, they're nothing but bunch of hypoc-rites and should stay in the fox hole where they belong.
mykids. Why are you so angry? .Atheists only believe in one less god than you.. you don't believe in Thor or Ra, or the thousand or so other gods invented so apply the same reasoning to your god and bingo.. you are now free of dogma and the supernatural. If you love the death cults that religions are, enjoy.
@evolvedDNA...It wasn't about belief. It's all about how Atheists react and make big on every single little thing when it comes to religion.
I find it hilarious when it seems that (Atheist) they can't stand looking those religious sinages such as "God Bless our Trip" in a bus or any public transport and made but can stand keeping those dollar with "In God We Trust" on it.-FUNNY!
mykids,
How would you feel if the money said, "Praise Allah" on it? Yeah, REAL FUNNY!
My debit card doesn't make any mention of god. I use it.
Mykids. Its not so much the fact that god is every, as an atheist i have lived with these symbols all my life. I would bet with gods money or secular Canadian money that if I opened a book store for those people who did not believe in god the religious would be out in droves..with all the Evangelical talking heads getting TV exposure as usual..saying how terrible this is and such. If I gave you 5000 Euros would you want it as it does not have god on it? of course you would.. Money trumps god at every turn.
@Jason in Toledo.. Too bad, it was backed and paid for by the thing who has It.
"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson
Mykids. Its not so much the fact that god is every, as an atheist i have lived with these symbols all my life. I would bet with gods money or secular Canadian money that if I opened a book store for those people who did not believe in god the religious would be out in droves..with all the Evangelical talking heads getting TV exposure as usual..saying how terrible this is and such. If I gave you 5000 Euros would you want it as it does not have god on it? of course you would.. Money trumps god at every turn.
MarkinFL said: "I have yet to see another religion besides Christianity try so hard to get its symbols put in public places. Examples of unchallenged symbols please?"
Actually, we're not trying to get our symbols so much as there are many who are trying to get them off or change or minimize the meaning of. Look all around Wash. D.C. and you'll find symbols and scriptures and Biblical characters on the archetecture of gov't buildings. It's because the founders had a deep belief in the Christian God and the principles found within the Holy Scriptures that you find this to be so. One example is at the Supreme Court Building where you can see Moses and the 10 Commandments. In yesteryear, that is the exact description given by tour guides. In recent years that has been changed to a non-Moses character holding the 10 Amendments. Revision in action. Who has been the force behind this: activistic athiests and liberals who don't want people to know of our heritage. But the fact that our govn't was founded on Christian principles galls them. The facts don't change, and our symbols indicate where we come. Go to other countries and you'll see the religion that dominates their borders. In the Mid East, you'll see Mohammed. In India, you'll see Brahma and many other representations of their gods. In southeast Asia, you'll see a lot of Buddhas around everywhere. Finally, in Jerusalam and elsewhere in Israel, you'll see symbols of Judiaism. Not a problem... I would not be offended if i went to visit or lived there. The same must go for those who live in the US of A.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." John Adams – Treaty of Tripoly, article 11
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." Benjamin Franklin
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison – April 1, 1774
Edward, the founding fathers were enlightenment-era thinkers. Some of theme were religious and some weren't. Even the more religious ones were religious in a way that is entirely dissimilar to modern Christians. Regardless of their religious views, they were all united by a strong belief in secularism – that religious ideologies, etc. should remain separated from government, beauracracy, etc., which public education is a part of.
Anyone that argues that the US is a Christian nation is utterly wrong. It is a nation built on secularism, altruism, and liberty. It's amazing that we seem to be going backwards in this regard, which, ironically, is largely the fault of the broken education system that has set such a low standard for teachers that it is common place to see a young earth creationist teaching biology classes.
Anyone want a beer?
Well it is pretty obvious that this was designed by Sarah Palin and intended to be used to crucify her opponents.
Not only do my children attend the district in question, they also attend a church sponsored, after school bible study. They do this by their choice, and it would wrong of me to deny them the opportunity to be exposed to what they are learning in this class. I hope it is one of many experiences that shape them as people. The real issue here is the implication that myself, or those that share my stance, should be OBLIGATED to expose our children to beliefs we do not share, or move somewhere else. No one in Toledo is calling for the eradication of any religion, just the freedom to make the choice. I would encourage anyone in this country to speak out if you feel as though your personal liberties are at risk, whether its intentional or not. Once they're gone, it is unlikely that they will return.
I am not a religous person at all... pretty apathetic about it all, but I dont understand how someone really got mad about this? to the point that the architech is changing it? I feel like no one would even notice unless they were trying to find an argument to start. Nonsensical, at best, that money is being spent to change a design around that is two lines crossing. I feel pretty confident it wasn't designed to have anything to do with a religion.
Religion is like a penis.
It is fine to have one.
It is fine to be proud of it.
But please keep it to yourself, and for decencies sake, please do not try to shove it down my childs throat.
A mind is a terrible (or if your Charles Barkely a "terrble") thing to waste. You do realize there is a difference between sharing and forcing, right?
Steve, um, yeah Christians have a long history of forcing thier religion on others, which in turn has destroyed cultures all over the world, main reason I am not a fan, Jesus would be ashamed of all of you.
TMJ (Does your jaw still ache?)
Atheism has a long history of imposing their immorality on others, and have destroyed cultures all over the world, including the United States. Mao would be proud of you.
TMJ
Jesus would be ashamed of all of you.
----–
You know this how? Jesus spoke to you and told you or is this just your opinion? Christians destroyed cultures? Really? Who destroyed ancient Buddist statues in Afghanistan? Christians? Who is preventing women from going to school and getting an education in that part of the world? Christians? Who is hell bent on the destruction of a little tiny nation we know as Israel? Christians? Who started hopitals in the young USA? Christians! Who started schools and unversities (before they went liberal)? Christians! Re-read your post and tell me if there is no bias and ignorance (the lack of knowing) there!
Mr C.. you have no idea what you are talking about. If you think that religious folk are moral.. lets look at the recent catholic church , the pastors in the US who suddenly dislike Ho-mo s-e-xualls and than become one, then the group dislike of segments of society based on some ones idea in a book. There is no doubt that some atheists do not act the same way you feel society has to, and many on your side act the same... there is no difference between us.. it is the ego that the religious have that drives the feeling they have superior "morals"
Evolved DNA,
I suspect our understanding of "morality" may be quite different. What forms the basis of your morality?
As Burt said and I quote,
"Religion is like a penis.
It is fine to have one.
It is fine to be proud of it."
Logic:
If RELIGION is like a PENIS and ATHEISTS have NO RELIGION, therefore, ATHEIST have NO PENIS.
If it's FINE to HAVE ONE and Atheists HAVE NOT, hence, Atheists are NOT FINE.
If it's fine to be PROUD of it, Therefore, Atheists have NOTHING to be PROUD of. LOL!
Somebody named "mykids" spent way to long thinking about a penis analogy
in the contrary "tomAss", I did it in a jiffy.
myklds,
Every time you respond with non-thinking, you are not helping your cause.....
My last response was for Burt.
I am an agnostic but still I think that a country should not curse and deny its heritage and cultural foundation based on Christianity. Despite of all criticism I honestly believe Christianity and Judeo-Christian values propelled America to the greatest heights. America seems to spare no effort to : apologize for being founded by Christians and Europeans, denigrate anything that suggests that Christian Europeans contributed far more than other cultures in building America from the lowly colonies to the greatest nation on Earth. Enough is enough and let us kick the liberal politically correct naive liberals right in the butt and tell them if you don't like it here : Go to China or to a Muslim country and see what they think about their own cultural heritage.
Interesting view point from an agnostic. Very welcomed but interesting none the less.
Well said!
I am not a religous person at all... pretty apathetic about it all, but I dont understand how someone really got mad about this? to the point that the architech is changing it? I feel like no one would even notice unless they were trying to find an argument to start. Nonsensical, at best, that money is being spent to change a design around that is two lines crossing. I feel pretty confident it wasn't designed to have anything to do with a religion.
Christians did not contribute as much as they would like people to think. Montesquieu, Voltaire, Diterot, and others were more deists than Christians. Reason and hard work built America, not unreasoning devotion to any particular deity.
Just put an 'i' in the middle of those two 't's and send the CNN blog filter after them.... 🙂
Great idea!
Bunch of weirdo's I say. Oh!!! Beelzebub will come if they take the crosses down. They look like two crosses plain as day. yank that crap down. People that aren't Christian could care less about your Savior. We have heard all the theories and stories...etc. Go pray in private and quit trying to spread the word. No one cares.
I know..I know...I will regret this when the blood washes down from the calvary and the apocalypse will rain down on my head....YAWN!!!
unless you repent satan will lay waste to you in hell...don't go there.
Mike, what you say is exactly what you rant about Christians doing...imposing your beliefs upon others. This always mystified me about athiests...they scream about having religion forced upon them, yet they have no qualms spreading their thoughts and ideations upon those who believe, insisting we are wrong and they are right.
You have the right to be an athiest (or whatever you wish to call yourself), and if you wish to be verbal about ti, do not insult or try to silence me as I do the same.
As far as the brickwork being crosses, a rose by any other name may still be a rose, but not everything is meant as a dig or slap against another. In other words, get over it and move on.
And THAT'S The Final Word.
Mike, what you don't understand is our "private" Christian lives must match our "public" Christian lives and vice versa. You said you heard all the stories and theories. If that were true you would then realize that rarely did Jesus teach in a building. He spent a majority of his life teaching in PUBLIC. He lived His life in Public. We who follow Him MUST do the same! The Great Commission demand we share! Our love for humanity demand we share! No one is forcing you to accept anything! Since you have heard somebody did what was asked of him or her and that person did their part in fulfilling the Great Commssion. Accept or not that is fully your choice! No one cares? Really? Then why bother to post?
Hey Mike...You have it right..These commenters apparently never heard of the First Amendment. No tax funded, local, state or federal establishmetn shall support or endorse ANY religion. And THATs the Final word Maverick.
Mike, thank you, it is good to know there are sane people out there. If this was a different relilgions symbol these Christians would be going crazy about it. + signs and the letter t? you people are insane. It is a violation of the 1st amendment, fix it, and then go about the learning.
Maverick.. you are kidding of course.. almost every hotel room in the US and Canada has a bible stuck in it, look in the yellow pages and tell me how many christian stores there are, and compare that to atheist stores.. also on Sunday morning, and most mornings actually, how many Christians are on there begging for money. yes this is enough and i am glad to see it go.
It sort of looks like a Shinto Torii.
i guess people in toledo don't spend much time reading about the worlds religions. i saw it and thought i was in meajima.
Public schools should avoid appearing partial to one religion over another. It makes sense to attempt to "avoid every appearance of evil." after all.