home
RSS
Your view: High school wrestler won't compete against a girl
February 18th, 2011
05:10 PM ET

Your view: High school wrestler won't compete against a girl

Our recent post on Joel Northrup, the high school wrestler who bowed out of the state tournament when he was paired with a girl, has whipped up a heavy debate in the comments section.

With 47 pages of comments (and growing), there are debates from many directions and points of view.

Editors note: Some comment were edited for grammatical and spelling content, as well as length

Many of the comments show support for Northrup in his decision:

Sooz
Give the kid a break. He's got morals and an ethic that he is willing to stand up for. We need more men and women like this. All these other dead fish floating down the river just 'going with the flow' is part of the problem in this country.

Glenn
Well good for him for standing for what he believes in and not complaining about the consequences. Bravo, In the second round I hope he sticks to his guns if the same situation arises. Then I think he should not be competing again in these contests now that he knows he may have to wrestle a girl he can forgo entering them again.

Dave
My hat is off to you Noel! You will never regret standing up for principles you believe in – even if it seems hard at the time.

Others feel like he might be scared of losing to a girl:

Sara
I think deep down he is worried that she might beat him.

PLM
He is absolutely afraid of losing.

Shawn
He is a coward. He's afraid he's going to lose or he's afraid he's going to get made fun of or both. This isn't about convictions. He just needs to learn to leave his ego at the door.

Some say this is a no-win situation, for both parties involved:

ShannonG
This really is unfair to both of these young people. Unfair to him to have to make a choice of forfeit and lose his chances at becoming a champion, and unfair to her that there is no girl's wrestling opportunities. Please don't judge either of these people or their families, you don't know them.

George
I kind of know what this guy is going through. I hate to play against girls, even if its just a pick up game of 5 v 5 Basketball. The thing is is that if you do anything to the girl (in this case throw her to the ground/wrestle) and she ends up getting hurt, you look like the bad guy. If you end up losing to the girl, its not a big deal, but then people (at least in my experience) will think that maybe you held back since its a girl.

Some say he should have seen her as a competitor, who won her way to the tournament, much as he did, regardless of sex:

BlackBelt
I don't see any reason why he shouldn't have just wrestled her, being from Iowa and a wrestler myself I can say for a fact, that wrestling is HUGE here. I've wrestled 2 different girls and neither time did it seem any difference than any other match. Its how you think of it, most of the wrestlers I know don't care who they wrestle, once the whistle blows its doesn't make a difference if its a boy or a girl. To not wrestle her after working so hard to get to state is just dumb, does he realize how many kids would kill to have a place down there?? and I guarantee that at least 90% of them would wrestle her anyway.

JJ
Girls were wrestling in my county in 1998 and since then, there have been no problems. While I agree that there are boys and girls sports for a reason, most counties do not offer a female wrestling team, so if they want to wrestle, they have no choice but to do so on the boys teams. And you are in NO position to tell them that they are bad parents for letting their daughter wrestle. If so, I must be a bad parent for letting my son play on a little-league team that allows boys and girls to play together.....it must promote violence and promiscuity....

Girls Can Grapple Too
I disagree with those male wrestlers who say boys wrestling girls are placed in a "no-win" situation. I have yet to see a girl wrestler complain or claim harassment when beaten by a boy. I have also seen boys lose graciously to girls. It's unfortunate that societal norms encourage the boys' peers to tease them if they are beaten fairly by a girl, but that's certainly not a reason to forbid girls to wrestle against boys. On the other hand, it's completely ridiculous to claim that boys are criticized if they beat girls. If you're saying that a serious male wrestler will allow a girl to win by not giving it his all because he's afraid he'll hurt the girl, that sounds like a lame excuse to me....

Jake
Has anyone stopped to think how the girl must've felt? I'd feel pretty bad if someone wouldn't wrestle me because of something about me I couldn't change. I mean, really, it's just a sport. I'm sure that's really sweet and thoughtful, but the girl SIGNED UP to wrestle. It's never mandatory. She's there to compete, not have guys fall to their knees while she takes the medal without wrestling. Pardon me for sounding feminist, but if she's decided to do it, let her do it. And what if she wins? She'll always wonder if she was really the number one wrestler, or if she should've been number two. Wrestling's about earning your wins.

A Mat Mom
I am from a town very close to all of these kids and when my son had to wrestle a girl it really was no BIG DEAL...By the way I have seen this girl wrestle and trust me she can hold her own and most boys dont want to have to face her because she really is that good and can truely hold her own Go Cassy

Others go on to point out that these are young people, and that the sport of wrestling is a very close contact competition:

Jared
Wrestling isn't like baseball, or other sports. It's a full contact sport where you grapple with your opponent. I wouldn't be comfortable wrestling a girl like that either. It's inappropriate to me, and I'm neither prudish nor religious. I wouldn't really feel comfortable groping on a girl like that. Especially in the high school years. With the amount of hormones raging there's no way your mind isn't going to wander.

ldean
I don't think it is so much a "combat" thing; as it is a "creepy" thing. I am the most liberal, women's rights, go girl person in the world – but, have you seen some of those contortionist grabs guys get into in wrestling. I think he is correct to feel uncomfortable grabbing a girl's crotch, or chest in order to flip her and pin shoulders to the mat.

aubrie
If he's uncomfortable with it, forcing him would be akin to harassment. Wrestlers cannot only get violent, but some of their "holds" are in pretty personal places. As a woman, I wouldn't WANT a strange male athlete touching me in those places.... but that's just me.


There's also a good deal of back on forth on whether his decision was based on simple gender inequality:

LEB
Morals that treat men and women differently aren't morals that should be respected. No one would be tolerating his "morals" if he refused to wrestle a black student or a student of a different religion than himself. This is no different.

John S
Maybe he would be more comfortable if she wore a burqa, or walked behind him to the arena. Wrestling is violent at times for males, too. These young women chose to participate, as did Northrup. He is refusing them the very opportunity he has received from all the other wrestlers he has competed against. I hope that he will ultimately see that his refusal is a form of social Neanderthalism re-packaged to be sold as "strict convictions." Bias is bias, discrimination is discrimination. Hope all your future bosses are women!

Jm
Boys/Girls/ Men/Women are not equal when it comes to physical prowess. That is why when the best athletes in the world compete they separate men and women. I DO believe girls/women should have the same rights as boys/men in life. However, to say that the guy has no right to "say no" when it comes to physical contact with a girl is hypocritical.

And a closing comment seeing the good and bad on both sides of the debate:

Jeremy
In life, not everything is either black or white...like this topic, many things fall into the gray area. Everybody is trying so hard to be right, and prove others wrong. When, in actuality, nobody is right and nobody is wrong here. The very reason this is such a hot topic is because both sides can, and do, make great points. I will choose to remain open minded, and enjoy this interesting debate.

What's your take? Do you take Northrup's statement at face value, or do you think there maybe more at play behind the young man's actions?

- cmccloy

Filed under: Belief • Culture wars

soundoff (172 Responses)
  1. Lost in Asia

    @David Johnson

    Your posts are very intelligent and very funny. Do you have a blog or some place I can read more of your opinions?

    February 20, 2011 at 4:43 pm |
    • wwajdblogger

      Thanks for the compliment. Yes, I do:

      http://www.whatwouldamericanjesusdo.com

      The blog is correctly mentioned in http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_Poe%27s_Law_examples.

      February 20, 2011 at 8:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Someone just blew their use of using other handles. Lost in Asia compliments David Johnson and wwajdblogger writes thanks.

      Too funny.

      February 21, 2011 at 2:58 am |
  2. wwajdblogger

    Women shouldn't compete with men in business. They don't understand it and will never succeed.
    Women shouldn't have an equal place in marriage. The husband is the head of the household.
    Women should not compete with men in college. They don't have the intellect.
    Women should not compete with men with the vote. They understand politics.

    Now you say: Women should not compete with men in sports. It's not natural and someone will get embarrassed.

    Well, excuse me, but this sounds like the same old tired dribble that men have used for centuries to keep women out of their "special" domains.

    A boy losing to a girl in wrestling had better get used to the feeling - he's going to feel a lot of that in life.

    http://www.whatwouldamericanjesusdo.com

    February 20, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
    • wwajdblogger

      Sorry for the typo: Should have typed "They don't understand politics."

      I got so worked up with the ridiculous comments I typed too fast.

      February 20, 2011 at 3:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      wwajdblogger, your entire post is a typo.

      February 21, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
  3. bennyblack1

    and you just can't "turn off" your emotional and animal instincts to mate. This match would be improper.

    February 20, 2011 at 3:26 am |
    • David Johnson

      @bennyblack1

      You said: "and you just can't "turn off" your emotional and animal instincts to mate."

      You most certainly can. There were something like 5,000 girls who wrestled in high schools throughout the nation last year.

      How many times did you hear on the news that the matches with boys resulted in "mating", and the boy and girl had to be pried
      apart?

      This is why Johnny can't read. Their parents have silly putty for brains.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 11:52 am |
  4. kathy

    why would any proper girl want to be groped? I think that the girls wanting to wrestle with the boys are just plain http://www.EZ!

    February 20, 2011 at 12:16 am |
    • David Johnson

      @kathy

      You said "why would any proper girl want to be groped? I think that the girls wanting to wrestle with the boys are just plain http://www.EZ!"

      I don't know this girl, but I'm betting you don't either. Saying malicious things about her, because she wants to wrestle, is really horrible of you.

      I have found that this sort of talk often comes from women who weigh 300 pounds and wrestle with the sofa to get up to run to the refrigerator. Their insults to slim, pretty girls, are born from self loathing and jealousy. I'm sure you are the exception.

      I'm betting, that she would much rather be competing only with girls. From the article, she mostly loses when wrestling boys. That can't be a lot of fun for her.

      The wrestling occurs in front of an audience. I doubt the boys would get out of hand.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 11:08 am |
  5. Rebel

    Why do girls/women always feel the need to be in everything that men do?

    February 19, 2011 at 10:55 pm |
  6. Red Dawn

    Any girl that want to be in this sport must be a butch. She is a girl wanting to be in a man's body..lol.

    February 19, 2011 at 10:51 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Red Dawn

      You said: "Any girl that want to be in this sport must be a butch. She is a girl wanting to be in a man's body..lol."

      WoW! That was funny! I have often heard jokes like that coming from guys lying on the sofa, watching NASCAR, and yelling for their wives to get them another beer: "Sis! I need another brew!" But, I know you are the exception.

      Her motives for wanting to wrestle are her own.

      What if she was a lesbian? Would that make her any less a person? Do we dismiss her? Hate her? Her dad seems to support and love her. Why shouldn't we?

      Just maybe, she is a young girl who wants to compete in a sport she loves.

      Maybe, we should stop worrying about why the girl wants to wrestle, and just accept the fact she does.

      Also:
      Lesbians don't want to be men. People who want to change their $ex are called trans$exuals.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 11:39 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hey Dave..Leave us NASCAR Fans out of this 🙂

      February 20, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
  7. claire

    well of course the male is physically and mentally superior than the female. This alone will result in white stuff squirted all over her body! Resulting in pregancy.

    February 19, 2011 at 10:02 pm |
  8. kathy

    As a high school wrestling parent. The kid made the right choice! Both of my sons have faced off against female wrestlers. Wrestling is often a sport of spur of the moment decisions, and when a male wrestler has to stop and rethink his move because he is concerned that the move he was planning is inappropriate, it puts him at a disadvantage. My question would be... Did the girl qualify for state based on previous forfeits to win her matches. I would like to see her qualifying stats!!! I'm sure she had more forfeits than actual wins!!! I would also have to question a parent that would allow his or her daughter to put herself in such controversial and inappropriate positions on the mat. I wouldn't support my daughter's desire to be fondled in such a manner!

    February 19, 2011 at 8:57 pm |
    • Mr Jude

      Just going to throw this out there, but I'm pretty sure that FORFEITING puts him at a greater disadvantage.

      February 20, 2011 at 10:32 am |
  9. FrankBlank

    He was silly, but he had every right to bow out for whatever reason. The women who are babbling about him being afraid to lose or him denying her the right to compete are are simply idiots whose heads have been filled with mindless TV replays. The girl wrestled two other boys, lost both times, and she's out.

    That said, he should have bounced her around a bit and been done with it. The sponsors were foolish to allow her to compete. The contestants were well beyond the age where boys' and girls' bodies are equally able to give and receive violence.

    February 19, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • Mr Jude

      I disagree with this completely. Having wrestled in high school... WITH GIRLS on my team... I can tell you that they are still equal.

      February 20, 2011 at 10:59 am |
  10. Chicago John

    Joel is to be congratulated. He was unfairly placed in a no-win situation, took an ethical stance, and made the wisest decision. Consider the possible outcomes. He could win, and be mocked for beating a girl. Or he could lose, and be ridiculed about losing to a girl. If she were to be hurt by him, he would be criticized. Whether it is right or wrong, there is no way society overlooks gender difference in this situation, or any situation.

    February 19, 2011 at 5:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Yes. He used the wisdom he learned from Jesus' teachings and wasn't blinded by ego (Pride) to do what others wanted him to do at any price. He wasn't blinded by greed to be known as the champion wrestler in the league. He wasn't blinded by envy (jealous that someone else would win the championship for his forfeiture). I give him credit and then some ... for focusing on another rather than himself, caring about this woman's health currently, as well as her future well being, as well as her future unborn children and all their quality of life.

      Amen.

      Amen.

      February 19, 2011 at 6:13 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "I give him credit and then some ... for focusing on another rather than himself, caring about this woman's health currently, as well as her future well being, as well as her future unborn children and all their quality of life."

      I could find only 1 incidence of a high school wrestler dying after a match. There are a lot of matches across the nation.

      Perhaps you are thinking of the wrestling you watch on television. People hit each other with chairs, jump from the top rope onto their opponent's chest, and gouge their eyes. The doesn't occur in at the high school level.

      Baseball is way more dangerous, as is football. Everything from death to paralysis. And girls play both.

      The bible wants women to be silent and bear children. The bible is the thoughts of Bronze Age men.

      I am praying for you HeavenSent. I am praying that the Great and Powerful Oz gives you a brain.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 12:11 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "I give him credit and then some ... for focusing on another rather than himself, caring about this woman's health currently, as well as her future well being, as well as her future unborn children and all their quality of life."

      I could find only 1 incident of a high school wrestler dying after a match. There are a lot of matches across the nation.

      Perhaps you are thinking of the wrestling you watch on television. People hit each other with chairs, jump from the top rope onto their opponent's chest, and gouge their eyes. The doesn't occur in at the high school level.

      Baseball is way more dangerous, as is football. Everything from death to paralysis. And girls play both.

      The bible wants women to be silent and bear children. The bible is the thoughts of Bronze Age men.

      I am praying for you HeavenSent. I am praying that the Great and Powerful Oz gives you a brain.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson, again, you take that scripture out of context. His truth is that everyone (male and female of all ages) is to be silent in church when learning Jesus' truth. It's so the people can learn His wisdom as is written. Again, you pick 1 scripture, taking His Truth out of context to prove what?

      By the way Dave, just what are the statistics on paralysis becoming a way of life for those unlucky in the contact sport arena?

      February 21, 2011 at 2:53 am |
    • The Truth

      *** HeavenSent writes: "David Johnson, again, you take that scripture out of context. His truth is that everyone (male and female of all ages) is to be silent in church when learning Jesus' truth. It's so the people can learn His wisdom as is written. Again, you pick 1 scripture, taking His Truth out of context to prove what?"***

      Actually, Jesus says not to go to Church. From Matthew: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

      Why aren't Christians/Catholics spending that hour out helping the needy instead of wasting that hour trying to look and feel good about themselves in Church? People go to Church for their own reasons, not because of what Jesus tells them to do as evidenced above.

      Jesus also instructs that the way to get into Heaven is to sell EVERYTHING you own, yet I don't see Christians running off to do that either. is a command from Jesus not good enough for them? Instead they "conveniently" choose to ignore those parts of the Bible as they cherrypick out the parts that fit their mental schemas.

      *** "By the way Dave, just what are the statistics on paralysis becoming a way of life for those unlucky in the contact sport arena?"***

      How many amputees has God/Jesus miraculously cured? There are so many "miracles" that happen, yet it is amazing how not one amputee has spontaneously regrown a limb. I guess God hates amputees.

      Peace.

      February 21, 2011 at 3:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Figures you CNN mod squadders blocked out my message to The Truth. I noticed you never did a story on the destruction of my career, my possessions, aka my life? As well as others that were destroyed. Hypocrites picking what you want to print and with holding truth.

      February 21, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • The Truth

      HeavenSent writes: "Figures you CNN mod squadders blocked out my message to The Truth. I noticed you never did a story on the destruction of my career, my possessions, aka my life? As well as others that were destroyed. Hypocrites picking what you want to print and with holding truth."

      LOL... I guess God wanted to hear what I had to say and not what you had to say. Perhaps you should pray harder and maybe your voice will be heard by having God pull rank on the mods and force your comments to be visible.

      February 21, 2011 at 8:57 pm |
  11. Mark from Middle River

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2010-09-23-boys-field-hockey_N.htm

    February 19, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
  12. Daisha

    if anyone has listened to what she had said in her interview she even said so herself..she just wish that they would see her as another wrestler and not just a girl.. and i agree with her i would feel the same way! Cassy along with Meagan made it this far in a "guys sport" and other guys have had NO problem wrestling wrestling them..and some probably were religious too.. and being from iowa& involved in wrestling my whole life... i do realize why some are angry.
    you know i keep hearing people say oh well then they should have a girls only wrestling program..
    in some of the smaller schools there really arent alot of female wrestlers, yes if it were girls only maybe more would go out, but there are alot of things they would have to keep in mind when coming up with an all girls program.. JUST SAYING...

    February 19, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      We can all have this conversation with her in another 30-40 years and read what she has to say about all the aches and pain she was plagued with throughout her life after her contact sports with males. Because she wanted to prove what?

      Hey Daisha, you can jump in front of a speeding train to teach other females how fast you are at your age. Then the years pass, you get slower with age ... and smack, they are shoveling you off the tracks.

      Wisdom 101 ... facts of life.

      February 19, 2011 at 6:04 pm |
  13. bob

    @david
    i live in utah and in 2002 our legislature tried to pass a law to teach "intelligent design" in our public schools. A local brewery came out with a beer called evolution amber in protest. Needless to say its one of my favorite beers!
    cheers!
    p.s. I enjoy reading your posts!

    February 19, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
  14. bob

    @david johnson
    Wait david, your telling me teaching creationism in our classrooms wont bring up our children's math/science scores Comparatively to other countries?!

    February 19, 2011 at 11:27 am |
    • David Johnson

      @bob

      With god, all things are possible. I think He will just "miracle" the knowledge into His flocks mushy brains.

      At least they better hope so, 'cause the kids are going to be so screwed.

      Remember what Jesus said from the cross: "Peter? Peter? I can see your house from here."

      Cheers my friend!

      February 19, 2011 at 12:03 pm |
  15. Jane Doe

    Again, someone being bashed and torn apart because of his convictions. How very sad.

    February 19, 2011 at 10:02 am |
  16. David Johnson

    @T-Party

    You said: "gosh I love wrestling women. I am agnostic too."

    I love cute girls no matter what they are doing.

    It is good that you are agnostic. Don't drink the Kool Aid!

    Cheers!

    February 19, 2011 at 8:18 am |
  17. David Johnson

    @CNN

    You said: "With 47 pages of comments (and growing), there are debates from many directions and points of view."

    The problem with the pages, is that it makes it very hard to track the thread.

    1 page, with scrolling was difficult, when the comments were in the thousands, but this is worse.

    Thanks!

    February 19, 2011 at 8:06 am |
    • Magic

      Yes, David, I agree.

      I know that I'm missing responding to my previous posts because I can't find them. I've even taken to writing some of the page numbers down on a piece of paper - but often even that doesn't work.

      They need a "Show All" function, although I'm sure it would take a while to load and reload - then you could do an Edit/Find search on your name with that.

      I'm glad that you are doing as well as you are with it at this point, though.

      February 19, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • bennyblack1

      Ya know, David, I became a Christian when I was 7. But, I made the same mistake that you are making. I listened to other people's interpretations of the Bible, and took at face value that what they were saying was true. I didn't take the time to really study, cross-reference, search for evidence, and apply it in my own life. When I finally stopped listening to others and did the research myself, as we are educated to do in school, I was able to invalidate 50% of the things that I was taught by well meaning people while I was growing up. This is not to say that they made the Bible wrong. No. This is not to say that God is a fairy tale. No. He is not.

      However, making a concerted effort to pick up study materials and do a thorough research of it not only invalidated what people taught me, but reaffirmed my faith in God as I continued to understand the truth, without bias or prejudice.

      You need a Strong's Concordance (King James), with the Greek and Hebrew translations, a King James Bible (the most true representation of the word on the shelf today), and if you can swing it, that Bible should be a Thompson's Chain Reference Study Bible. There are others, but if you can get around the "thees and thous," and read it and understand it in CONTEXT, this is the best Bible on the market, today.

      I do understand what you mean about the alleged inconsistencies. Things in this world are made to look like something else, and it covers the truth. I'm just saying, do what scientist that converted to Christianity did. Try to disprove God. They could not, and became believers. You CAN'T disprove God. It's a physical and spiritual impossibility.

      February 20, 2011 at 3:14 am |
    • bennyblack1

      And by the way, wrestling a girl for your life, and wrestling a girl for a medal – are two entirely different things. It's not a video game. It's not a social engineering experiment. And we're not trying to make males and females equal. They are NOT. That's apparent. And we shouldn't be doing it.

      February 20, 2011 at 3:23 am |
    • David Johnson

      @bennyblack1

      You said: "You CAN'T disprove God."

      No one can prove a negative. No one can prove absolutely that something does not exist. I cannot "prove" Santa or the Easter Bunny does not exist. No one can.

      But in life, we decide by a preponderance of the evidence, whether something exists or not. We determine, that there is no real evidence for a thing.

      1 Corinthians 13:11
      When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

      When I was 5, I believed in magic and things unseen. When I was 7, I gave up childish notions.
      Childish beliefs should be abandoned by every adult, if they haven't done it earlier. Adults should be honest with themselves and look at the world, as it actually is.

      We reject Santa and the Easter Bunny, because we know that there are children who don't receive any toys for Christmas. Kids of rich parents receive more and better toys than the poor kids. Carrying all those toys and sliding down chimneys is not believable. Saying Santa is magic doesn't satisfy us.

      Santa doesn't fit in with how things really are. The jolly old elf, just isn't probable.

      God is like Santa. He is a fictional being. He doesn't fit in, with how things really are.

      Because believers want god to be real, they use selective observation, make excuses and hold onto expectations that are very,very unlikely: Jesus has been dead for 2000+ years. He hasn't returned, in spite of predicting a 1st Century 2nd Coming; All the born again believers will one day float up to heaven; When we die, our souls survive to be rewarded or punished. Like Santa, you will receive more or less gifts, depending on what the elf observes. So you better watch out. You better not pout... an invisible somebody is watching you all the time. LOL

      Bad things happen to good people. Bad people often live long lives in the sun.

      God is said to be all good, but there is so much suffering in the world. God did horrible things in the Old Testament. Reality, calls this all good attribute into question.

      Prayer does not work. Jesus made promises about prayer, that you can test. So test them! Ask for anything – A new car, world peace, that Jesus would appear to you... or, move a mountain.

      When people pray, they are talking to themselves. When god starts talking to them, we start to worry. We believe it is a sign of mental illness.

      There are no miracles. Miracles are just the product of coincidence and random chance. Or, deception and fraud.

      Science can find no use for god. All the gaps in man's knowledge, that are filled by god, are being filled by scientific discoveries.

      Evolution has dispelled the myth of creation. There is tons of evidence for Evolution. None for Creation.

      If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there could not have been original sin. If no original sin, then all the suffering humans and animals endure, could not be because of it. If no original sin, then there is no need for a redeemer. If no redeemer, then why is there Christianity?

      So bennyblack1, there is no more evidence that there is a god, than there is for there being a Santa. Your belief in god is based on faith. Faith in something does not make it true. Faith without evidence is worthless.

      You don't believe in the ancient Greek gods do you? Of course you don't. But if you did, Zeus would spring to life. Your faith and belief is what powers the gods. Have faith and Aphrodite will answer your prayers, if she thought it was good for you or if it was her will – just like the Christian god. No difference!

      Once the Greek gods were prayed to, loved and feared. But now they lie silent, because no one believes...

      If all the gods, that have come before the current batch of gods, are classified as myths, what evidence do you have that the gods now in vogue should not also be in that column?

      No, little bennyblack1, there is no god.

      I claim there is no god, with the same confidence that I claim there is no Santa or Easter Bunny or Zeus, or Poseidon.

      If extraordinary evidence surfaces, that the goddess Athena exists, I will embrace her, For she looks hot!

      Every adult should take this stand. God is just the Santa for adults. If belief were withdrawn, God would crumple to the floor, like a puppet whose strings were cut.

      Have a great day!

      P. S. Before you spend all this time on "studying" the bible, consider that the Jews have been studying the Old Testament for 4,000 years. The Catholics, the New Testament for 2000+ years. All the denominations of Christianity have probably burned the night oil, looking at their bibles. They have all come to different conclusions.

      It is difficult for me to believe that you alone have found the "truth".

      Again, ask yourself this: If there was a god, why would He not have written/inspired a bible that is not confusing? A bible that everyone would interpret the same way? A god can do anything.

      Cheers!

      February 20, 2011 at 10:45 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Dave Johnson, have you read these scriptures?

      Psalms 10:1 Why standest thou afar off, O LORD? [why] hidest thou [thyself] in times of trouble?

      Psalms 10:2 The wicked in [his] pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

      Psalms 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, [whom] the LORD abhorreth.

      Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.

      Psalms 10:5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments [are] far above out of his sight: [as for] all his enemies, he puffeth at them.

      Psalms 10:6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for [I shall] never [be] in adversity.

      Psalms 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue [is] mischief and vanity.

      Psalms 10:8 He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

      Psalms 10:9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.

      Psalms 10:10 He croucheth, [and] humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.

      Psalms 10:11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see [it].

      Psalms 10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.

      Psalms 10:13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require [it].

      Psalms 10:14 Thou hast seen [it]; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite [it] with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

      Psalms 10:15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil [man]: seek out his wickedness [till] thou find none.

      Psalms 10:16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.

      Psalms 10:17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:

      Psalms 10:18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.

      February 21, 2011 at 2:28 am |
    • The Truth

      HeavenSent, have you read these scriptures?

      *** Kill anyone that works on Sunday:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2031:%2012-15;&version=31;

      *** If you catch anyone breaking God's law, you are COMMANDED to stone them to death:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2017:%202-7;&version=31;

      *** Anyone not seeking the Lord is to be put to death:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2015:%2013-14;&version=31;

      *** The ability to kill an entire town and burn it to the ground:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:12-18;&version=31;

      *** The ability to kill your wife, brother, son, daughter, etc via stoning and show them "no pity."

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-10;&version=31;

      *** More stonings ordered by God:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2024:%2013-14;&version=31;

      *** The Lord COMMANDING that anyone who blashemes him is to be put to death:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2024:%20%2016;&version=31;

      *** Anyone who takes another's life must be put to death (sounds like Christians have some killing to do of our men in uniform when they return):

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2024:%20%2017;&version=31;

      *** If you curse at your mom or dad, you are to be put to death:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020:9%20;&version=31;

      *** If you commit adultery, you are to be killed:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020:10%20;&version=31;

      *** Let's not forget the gays too! Despite God creating gay animals of all different species, if you are gay, you are to be killed:

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2020:13%20%20;&version=31;

      I could go on and on and on and on. I don't know why so many Christians are on these boards when there is so much killing to be done that their God COMMANDS them to do. But they just pick and choose which parts to believe and which parts to ignore because apparently God's word is only important some times, despite the Bible specifically saying that "the law of the Lord is perfect." lol

      None of that even talks about owning slaves and being able to beat to them (including females) without any sort of punishment if they can get up within two days. That's some great love and kindness there.

      As a wise philosopher once said, "Religion: Giving Hope to Those Living in a World Torn Apart by Religion."

      Peace.

      February 21, 2011 at 2:45 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, you're just another one that takes scriptures out of context without reading all the scriptures pertaining to what Jesus is Teaching.

      Death means many things in the Bible. It could mean to physically kill, spiritually kill to be one of the many spiritually dead while walking on this earth. Because you decided to just print one scripture after another doesn't mean anything without knowing what Jesus was teaching by the surrounding scriptures, referencing other books of the Bible on subject matter, content, then outcome (to a believer versus non believer).

      I noticed that those whose hearts are harden to His truth freak out regarding some of the scriptures you've blogged same as they do complaining about the courts in our land. Criminals don't like being locked up for committing and getting caught for their crimes against others in society. Now do they?

      February 21, 2011 at 4:52 am |
    • The Truth

      *** HeavenSent writes: "The Truth, you're just another one that takes scriptures out of context without reading all the scriptures pertaining to what Jesus is Teaching. Death means many things in the Bible. It could mean to physically kill, spiritually kill to be one of the many spiritually dead while walking on this earth...." ****

      Listen to yourself. Talk about "sp-inning" scripture to fit your mental schema. Watch, I'll do the same thing: By giving to the poor, that could mean giving to the spiritually poor so I'm going to donate everything I have to Bill Gates because he is not a Christian. Do you see how absolutely absurd that is? It is absurd to you when I do it, but when you try to spin your item in the EXACT same way, you find it perfectly acceptable. Why? Because YOU are making the Bible say what YOU want it to.

      Here are some lines from both the Old and New Testament:

      Jesus explicitly informs us on how to get into Heaven when he says, "Sell EVERYTHING you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." He says this in both Luke and Mark. Yet "amazingly" Christians are able to come up with countless variations on how this doesn't apply to them. Because when money is involved, faith becomes secondary more times than not. I'm assuming you aren't homeless using a computer at the free library.

      February 21, 2011 at 6:09 am |
    • The Truth

      Continued:

      Or in the case where God commands items such as, "If anyone cur-ses his father or mother, he MUST be put to death" or "If a man commits adul-tery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adul-terer and the adul-teress MUST be put to death" or "If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has se-xual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them MUST be cut off from their people" or "A man or woman who is a medium or spiri-tist among you MUST be put to death. You are to stone them" or "anyone who works on the Sabbath MUST be put to death" etc, etc, etc... it is amazing how people who worship God and consider it their job to explicitly follow his commands are so easily able to ignore what God says. Those orders to kill contain virtually zero ambiguity. These concepts are completely illogical. Thankfully people are smart enough to ignore what their Biblical God commands them to do.

      Just curious... how many homeless people do you have living in your house? There are around 3 million homeless people living in America. That means there are over 80 Christians to help every single homeless person in America. 80 to 1 !!! How can there still be that many homeless with all of these self-proclaimed good Christians around? There are around 44 million "second homes" in the United States. When you do the math and factor in that around 80% of the population of the US is Christian, then it is pretty clear that there are at least 3 million Christians that own second homes. Thus, how can there be so many homeless people living here? Surely, Jesus wouldn't have hoarded two houses just for himself and leave his fellow man out on the street now would he?

      In Matthew, Jesus says: "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in pris-on and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

      So if you are REALLY following the Bible and REALLY listening to what Jesus says and REALLY want to get into Heaven, what are you doing here on your computer on a message board when there are poor, homeless and hungry people out there that you could be helping instead? After all, you are leaving Jesus cold and hungry in the process.

      Peace.

      February 21, 2011 at 6:11 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Truth is The Truth, I've been reading the Bible longer than you've been alive and I will continue reading His truth until the day I leave this planet. You on the other hand have no clue to what Jesus' teaches, but you, like so many other non-believers mock His truth without ever studying it, comprehending it, or applying His wisdom to your lives and when you do, you call His wisdom something else because you are too blinded by the sin of PRIDE to admit where His wisdom came from.

      You mock Christians and insist we are brainwashed, yet you are the one's brainwashed by others that also don't comprehend His truth. You haven't a clue to His teachings that He tells us the subject, object, and then outcome. Nooooooooo, you pick scriptures out of thin air and think you are making a point. The only point you make to Christians is that you are clueless to what Jesus is teaching pertaining to said scriptures you've chosen.

      February 21, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Mmmmmmmmmh, the Truth, "The Truth Continued: Or in the case where God commands items such as, "If anyone cur-ses his father or mother, he MUST be put to death" or "If a man commits adul-tery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adul-terer and the adul-teress MUST be put to death"

      Fathers and mothers correct their children from their bad behaviors. If not, the kid just becomes spiritually dead, meaning to live in his/her own ego pushing their parents to their limits of tolerance of what is good vs what is inapropriate behavior, hence, ignoring constructive corrective measure from the parents who are wiser than the child.

      Oh, but cheating couples still get put to death today by family and friends. It's called cutting off communication with the selfish people who only care about themselves in their excitement of lusting in the flesh and turn their backs on any loved ones involved. You probably call it the "cold shoulder" today.

      I'll leave the rest for you to think about what He's truly trying to teach, instead of being horrified by their language of the day. As with today, a person uses street language as BAD. But, they really mean something is GOOD. Someone's crib isn't a big child's bed, but where the person resides ... or in your case, lives.

      Go figure?

      February 21, 2011 at 7:35 pm |
    • The Truth

      *** HeavenSent writes: "Truth is The Truth, I've been reading the Bible longer than you've been alive"***

      This just goes to further illustrate how you create things in your own head and use delusion to believe they are true. Here is REALITY: You have no idea how old I am. Thus, your statement is absurd and yet you believe it to be true. That speaks volumes.

      ***"but you, like so many other non-believers mock His truth without ever studying it"***

      LOL... more delusion from you. What part of my going to faith based schools and working in my Church did you choose to ignore to create this delusion?

      ***"you are too blinded by the sin of PRIDE to admit where His wisdom came from."****

      Ummm... from uneducated men who thought the world was flat? Sorry if it is such a stretch for you to realize that your creator is probably a million times more intelligent than the dolts that wrote the Bible. In fact, it is a slap in your Creator's face to even think he could be so daft as to write that.

      ***"You mock Christians and insist we are brainwashed, yet you are the one's brainwashed"***

      Yes, because clearly you don't use delusion whatsoever (as has been evidenced here in this brief post in spades). Do you know which demographic is the most likely to believe in God? Yep, grade school children who also believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

      ***"You haven't a clue to His teachings"***

      You can't even grasp basic facts from my own posts such as my going to faith based schools in order to connect the dots that I've studied the Bible and then you turn around and claim that I don't have a clue to his teachings. If you can't grasp basic items like the aforementioned, then I'm sure you can understand something more complex like the Bible.

      ***"Oh, but cheating couples still get put to death today by family and friends. It's called cutting off communication with the selfish people who only care about themselves in their excitement of lusting in the flesh and turn their backs on any loved ones involved. You probably call it the "cold shoulder" today...Blah, Blah, Blah...:"

      Nice try to spin it... I suppose some of the items I mentioned specifically saying that they need to be STONED TO DEATH must mean the cold shoulder as well. Rolleyes.

      Leviticus states, "'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them YOU MAY BUY SLAVES. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and THEY WILL BECOME YOUR PROPERTY. You can will them to your children as INHERITED PROPERTY and CAN MAKE THEM SLAVES FOR LIFE."

      Exodus says, "If a man BEATS his male or female slave with a ROD and the slave DIES as a direct result, he must be punished, but HE IS NOT TO BE PUNISHED IF THE SLAVE GETS UP AFTER A DAY OR TWO SINCE THE SLAVE IS HIS PROPERTY."

      But then again, your God COMMANDS you that "Anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH" just a few lines earlier.

      So let me guess: By "slave" God really means "butler." By "beat with a rod" God really means "tickles with a feather." By "if the slave gets up after two days from getting the crap beat out of him" God really means "he had the flu and was in bed for a couple of days." And finally, I guess parents should give their kids the "cold shoulder" as well and cut them off from communication.

      This is comical. Keep spinning it to fuel your delusions. Just know it would be MUCH healthier to just accept reality and move forward.

      Peace.

      February 21, 2011 at 8:54 pm |
    • Hockey_fan

      WOW! Heaven Sent has to be one of THE MOST DELUSIONAL people I have ever come across and I work in a group home for emotional and behavioral problems! I have heard some pretty out there arguments from Christians, but this person takes the cake! You are twisting the word of the Bible completely! and by the way, repeating His truth over and over and over without really saying anything meaningful in between is going to win you many arguments, my advice, see a therapist, and I don't mean that because you're Christian (my WHOLE family is Christian and can at least construe an argument that is worth thinking about) it's because you obviously have a need for people to listen to your nonsense, so take it somewhere you have to pay someone because no one is interested here.

      February 21, 2011 at 10:07 pm |
    • The Truth

      @Hockey_fan

      I hope you are happy... I was munching on some snacks when I was reading your post, started laughing out loud and nearly choked to death on a pretzel after reading your first sentence. Luckily, I prayed to the FSM and a giant noodle tentacle came out of the sky and wrestled that pretzel stick from out of my throat. 🙂

      February 21, 2011 at 10:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth

      *** HeavenSent writes: "Truth is The Truth, I've been reading the Bible longer than you've been alive"***

      This just goes to further illustrate how you create things in your own head and use delusion to believe they are true. Here is REALITY: You have no idea how old I am. Thus, your statement is absurd and yet you believe it to be true. That speaks volumes.

      Answer: I may not know your actual age, but your immaturity on knowing His truth tells me you are young and haven’t figured out human teaching versus Jesus spiritual truth as is written.

      ***"but you, like so many other non-believers mock His truth without ever studying it"***

      LOL... more delusion from you. What part of my going to faith based schools and working in my Church did you choose to ignore to create this delusion?

      Answer: Just because you attended man/made schools doesn’t make you wise. It makes you better at learning man’ view of His truth.

      ***"you are too blinded by the sin of PRIDE to admit where His wisdom came from."****

      Ummm... from uneducated men who thought the world was flat? Sorry if it is such a stretch for you to realize that your creator is probably a million times more intelligent than the dolts that wrote the Bible. In fact, it is a slap in your Creator's face to even think he could be so daft as to write that.

      Answer: Apparently, your schooling didn't provide you with the following of His truth as is written, ...

      Luke 17:30: "Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the son of man is revealed. . . (vs 31) IN THAT DAY . . . (vs 34) I tell you, IN THAT NIGHT . . ." Nobody in Luke's day thought it could be day and night at the same time! They thought the earth was flat! Luke was written around 65 A.D. How did Luke know something that others didn't know until the 16th century?

      ***"You mock Christians and insist we are brainwashed, yet you are the one's brainwashed"***

      Yes, because clearly you don't use delusion whatsoever (as has been evidenced here in this brief post in spades). Do you know which demographic is the most likely to believe in God? Yep, grade school children who also believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

      Answer: Your blindness is as burning as your deafness.

      ***"You haven't a clue to His teachings"***

      You can't even grasp basic facts from my own posts such as my going to faith based schools in order to connect the dots that I've studied the Bible and then you turn around and claim that I don't have a clue to his teachings. If you can't grasp basic items like the aforementioned, then I'm sure you can understand something more complex like the Bible.

      Answer: You obviously don’t believe His truth written in John 15:19, Matthew 24:51, 2 Timothy 3:1-2, Romans 1:30, Proverbs 17:11, Romans 9:20, Psalm 119:118; see also Proverbs 1:20-32, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:41, Isaiah 65:12, Isaiah 66:4, 2 Timothy 3:3-5, Matthew 7:13-14, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, John 14:6, Matthew 7:13-14, Psalm 31:6, Psalm 15:4; see also Psalm 119:104, 128; 139:21-22; Galatians 1:8-9; 5:12, 2 Peter 2:2 for starters.

      ***"Oh, but cheating couples still get put to death today by family and friends. It's called cutting off communication with the selfish people who only care about themselves in their excitement of lusting in the flesh and turn their backs on any loved ones involved. You probably call it the "cold shoulder" today...Blah, Blah, Blah...:"

      Nice try to spin it... I suppose some of the items I mentioned specifically saying that they need to be STONED TO DEATH must mean the cold shoulder as well. Rolleyes.

      Leviticus states, "'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them YOU MAY BUY SLAVES. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and THEY WILL BECOME YOUR PROPERTY. You can will them to your children as INHERITED PROPERTY and CAN MAKE THEM SLAVES FOR LIFE."

      Exodus says, "If a man BEATS his male or female slave with a ROD and the slave DIES as a direct result, he must be punished, but HE IS NOT TO BE PUNISHED IF THE SLAVE GETS UP AFTER A DAY OR TWO SINCE THE SLAVE IS HIS PROPERTY."

      But then again, your God COMMANDS you that "Anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH" just a few lines earlier.

      So let me guess: By "slave" God really means "butler." By "beat with a rod" God really means "tickles with a feather." By "if the slave gets up after two days from getting the crap beat out of him" God really means "he had the flu and was in bed for a couple of days." And finally, I guess parents should give their kids the "cold shoulder" as well and cut them off from communication.

      This is comical. Keep spinning it to fuel your delusions. Just know it would be MUCH healthier to just accept reality and move forward.

      Answer: You’d figure out His truth if you'd read the Bible with open eyes to see and ears to hear.

      Amen.

      February 25, 2011 at 1:10 pm |
  18. T-Party

    gosh I love wrestling women. I am agnostic too.

    February 19, 2011 at 8:05 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Funny The Truth. I wonder how many times your parents put you to death by using soap in your mouth as a child? The death was stopping your big mouth from cursing.

      Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmh, Jesus' wisdom still rules.

      February 21, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
  19. Reality

    Obviously, Mark from Middle River is as confused about life-time sports as he is about god but we are here to assist him once again.

    With respect to golf:

    See the directory of 16,000 public golf courses at http://www.publiccourses.com/

    With respect to god:

    The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated based on the studies of historians and theologians during the past 200 years)

    I might believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven.

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
    ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen

    February 19, 2011 at 7:55 am |
    • HeavenSent

      How do we know Reality has a brain? Because he says so but refuses to use it before he types all his nonsense on these blogs.

      You Reality, are just as clueless as David J. You can continue walking into those brick walls all you like. Christians will tell you, if you walk that way, you'll hit a brick wall and when you do. It will hurt. Therefore, take another route Reality. Take another route.

      Another thing Reality (because I can't say finally, because you refuse to comprehend anything a Christian tells you), your parents, the community you grew up in, the school systems, neighbors, relatives, any/all those that touched your life, taught you His wisdom. You just don't know it because they called it something else.

      February 19, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • Reality

      And it appears HeavenSent needs some assistance again as he continues to be a victim of the Great Resurrection Con Game:

      From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

      Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

      To wit;

      From a major Catholic university's theology grad school white-board notes:

      "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
      Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

      Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

      Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

      The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

      Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

      "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
      http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

      The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

      Of course, we all know that angels are really mythical "pretty wingie talking thingies".

      With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

      An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
      p.4
      "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

      o p.168. by Ted Peters:

      "Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

      So where are the bones? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

      February 19, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "No matter how many Christians tells you what you are missing..."
      You said: "Christians will tell you..."

      You talk about what Christians tell me.

      Actually, different denominations of Christians say different things. There are literally thousands of different Christian denominations. Each can show you scripture, that "prove" they alone know the truth and worship the one true god. Many, think their members will be the only ones saved.

      If, one true god exists, why could he not have inspired a bible that nobody could misinterpret? Isn't He all knowing and all powerful? Hmmm...

      There are a number of religions, other than Christianity. Some of the gods worshiped are not even human, like the Hindu god Ganesha.

      These religions, and the different Christian denominations, have different beliefs of what god(s) want and even in their description of Him/Them.

      If there is one true god, why are there so many versions of Him?

      Doesn't the one true god, very much want, everyone to believe in Him?

      With all these competing gods and belief systems, how do you know that what you believe and express is correct?

      What evidence can you give, that you interpret your bible correctly and your bible was written by the god you worship?

      All the believers of each religion and each denomination, feel their god in their heart. *sigh*

      All of these religions and denominations, could not all be right. But, they could all be wrong. Maybe humans haven't discovered the one true god, yet. Or maybe god does not exist.

      Before I accept a Christian's advice, do I not have the right to know it is sound? Especially since it requires me to suspend my critical thinking?

      Cheers!

      February 19, 2011 at 8:46 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson

      Actually David, Jesus' truth stands throughout eternity. With that said, people change, not Jesus' truth. The more a person matures, the more Jesus' truth is revealed from the same scriptures a person read in their teens, early 20s, 30s, 40s and so on until the day they die. That's why the elders are respected in the Christian community. It takes a lifetime to read His truth and not one person is allowed to understand all His truth because we simply don't live that long (thousands of years). An older individual that reads, comprehends, abides in His truth has more depth of His truth than someone younger. It has to do with His truth being unveiled to them as they experience more of life.

      As for your questions to why other gods exists. That too, is written (in the Bible). Reading about Cain is a good start.

      As far as you suspending your critical thinking ... that too is written (in the Bible).

      End of days is written throughout the Bible. The book of Revelation is one, as well as the books of Peter as well as others.

      February 21, 2011 at 2:13 am |
    • Reality

      "Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]

      Martin Luther "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]

      February 21, 2011 at 8:14 am |
    • HeavenSent

      So Reality, if a man tells you to jump off a bridge, do you stop long enough to ask what time, what bridge, where is it located, or do you just jump when a mortal man tells you? To find out, he meant several years from now.

      Go figure, the man you write about is spiritually dead too. Nice pair, you two make.

      February 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
  20. Justina

    Joel is a hero in an era where pollution and perversion are having negative effects both on the mind and bodies of boys and girls in the West.

    February 19, 2011 at 4:21 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Justina

      I don't know where you are from, but the U.S. has clean water to drink, good sanitation, and wholesome food. We have air pollution, but not as bad as a lot of the other industrialized countries.

      Our children's minds are more at risk by religion, than pollution. We need more emphasis on science and math. The children will be competing with the rest of the world. Having Jesus in their hearts and air in their heads, simply won't cut it.

      Tell me, Justina:

      Do you think god wants everyone, or most everyone, to believe in Him?

      Curious in Arizona

      February 19, 2011 at 8:15 am |
    • HeavenSent

      David J, you are blind. No matter how many Christians tells you what you are missing, you still want to stay the neanderthal in your warped perception about Christianity.

      As I stated before, you're the only one loosing out by not comprehending His wisdom. Not Christians.

      February 19, 2011 at 5:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      How do we spell clueless?

      D-A-V-I-D. No need for last names, everyone got it after the first initial.

      February 19, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "As I stated before, you're the only one loosing out by not comprehending His wisdom. Not Christians."

      What wisdom? And it's not loosing. It is losing. God doesn't help you much does He? LOL

      Christians are non-thinking sheep.

      Cheers!

      February 19, 2011 at 7:48 pm |
    • The Truth

      ***"HeavenSent writes: "David J, you are blind. No matter how many Christians tells you what you are missing, you still want to stay the neanderthal in your warped perception about Christianity. As I stated before, you're the only one loosing out by not comprehending His wisdom. Not Christians."***

      LOL... name calling? Very Christians of you indeed. Perhaps you can refer to the part of the Bible where Jesus instructs his followers to call other people names. After all, from reading your posts here, it appears as if you engage in this practice this quite often.

      None of this even accounts for the hilarious nature of you calling people "neanderthals" when in the very next sentence you don't know the difference between "losing" and "loosing." Too bad your spell checker couldn't help you out with that one. Or perhaps it is because you are the one that is "blind" and not David.

      ***How do we spell clueless? D-A-V-I-D. No need for last names, everyone got it after the first initial.***

      How do we spell hypocrite? H-E-A-V-E-N. No need for rest of your name; everyone got it after the first initial.

      Cheers!

      February 21, 2011 at 1:35 am |
1 2 3
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.