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John Dominic Crossan's 'blasphemous' portrait of Jesus
February 27th, 2011
09:06 PM ET

John Dominic Crossan's 'blasphemous' portrait of Jesus

By John Blake, CNN

One of his first fan letters came from someone who declared:

"If Hell were not already created, it should be invented just for you."

Other critics have called him "demonic," "blasphemous" and a "schmuck."

When John Dominic Crossan was a teenager in Ireland, he dreamed of becoming a missionary priest. But the message he's spreading about Jesus today isn't the kind that would endear him to many church leaders.

Read the full story on Jesus scholar John Dominic Crossan
- CNN Writer

Filed under: Books • Christianity • Culture & Science

soundoff (306 Responses)
  1. Reality

    Using the studies of Crossan, Ludermann, Borg, Fredriksen, Pagels, Armstrong etc., a 21st century synopsis of Christianity:

    Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan se-cts.

    The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

    earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

    For added "pizz-azz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "fil-icider".

    Current RCC problems:

    Pedo-ph-iliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

    Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

    Current problems:

    Adu-lterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

    February 28, 2011 at 11:08 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Knock, Knock.

      Who isn't there?

      Reality.

      Reality whom?

      Reality.

      Reality needs the only book there is the Bible.

      Knock, Knock.

      Who's there?

      God.

      God whom?

      God who loves you son and wants you to make it back to me.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:23 am |
  2. Metro

    If Christians want to be taken seriously, if they want ANY respect AT ALL...they need to start acting more like violent, intolerant, obnoxious, loud MUSLIM radicals...That gets peoples attention.

    As we all watch this democrat clown car bow and stoop to islaimophile terrorists, one thing is perfectly clear..>VIOLENCE AND THREATS OF VIOLENCE GETS THINGS DONE!!!

    Take a page from the muslim playbook, christians...start curb stomping fools that disrespect you.

    February 28, 2011 at 10:42 am |
    • Frogist

      Compare and contrast: Metro/Jesus... Jesus/Metro

      February 28, 2011 at 2:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Metro, we don't play the divide and conquer game the way your generation is conditioned to.

      Stroke, stroke, stroke your egos ... then after they use you up, they toss you to the side.

      Read His truth and save your soul brother.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:20 am |
  3. Eric G.

    What I find disturbing about believers is not their faith in their God, but the way they form their world view. I would appreciate it if a believer can give me an example of any other aspect in their life that they take on faith.

    February 28, 2011 at 10:21 am |
    • Steve the real one

      Eric G,

      We form our world view because of our faith. This is not a seperate issue! As for part 2 of your post, faith infuses EVERY aspect of my life. aGAIN, THI SSCannot be sepearted. i wil say that I am not perfect

      February 28, 2011 at 10:32 am |
    • NL

      Yes, I somehow doubt that they get taken in by ponzi schemes more than the average person.

      February 28, 2011 at 10:32 am |
    • Steve the real one

      Eric G,

      World views from because of faith! That goes for you as well. You believe their is no God, thus you see the world from that point of view. I believe there is a God and as a result, I see the world from that point of view! This is not a seperate issue! As for part 2 of your post, faith infuses EVERY aspect of my life. Again, not seperate issue. None of this implies I am a perfect man, I am not, yet it is about faith!

      February 28, 2011 at 10:36 am |
    • Eric G.

      @Steve: Nice to hear from someone who will have a rational discussion! I do not need to "believe" that there is no God. No evidence has ever been put forth that supports the theory of the existence of any gods. My world view is based on truth and reasonable expectations based on evidence. Faith is not a pathway to truth. Faith is having expectations without the presence of evidence.

      Can you give a specific example of something that you think I have "faith" in?

      February 28, 2011 at 11:03 am |
    • Steve the real one

      Man! I can't type correctly today! I really am a better speller than my posts! Anyway to your question. When I ask for proof that there is no God you say one cannot prove a negative, correct? That is your view, I would add that is what you believe! You just don't like the words faith or belief applied to you! Other than that , I really don't know what to tell you. I can only know what you believe by your words on this blog! You believe there is no God! Are you telling me that without a shadow of doubt, there is no God? If you KNOW there is no god, you don't have to keep asking me for proof that there is! If I am, as you state, delusional allow me to stay within my delusion! Of course, you know I would disagree with that! Stay well!

      February 28, 2011 at 11:40 am |
    • NL

      Steve the real one-
      Are you up to date on the Wakefield-MMR-Autism controversy? If you accept that Wakefield's study is fundamentally flawed, or at least flawed enough to raise doubts, then you may not agree with parent's choosing not to vaccinate their children, right? Yet, there appears to be those die hards who still staunchly believe that there is a link between the MMR vaccine and autism despite the debunking of this study. There is some concern that the increasing number of children that are being withheld the vaccine due to this fear is putting the entire population at risk.

      So, if you have concerns over what effect so many unvaccinated children may cause do you keep quiet, or do you voice your concerns? We are in a very similar position with believers in that scrutiny has arose doubts in your cherished belief, and that your choices based on that belief are also coming under question. Choices like opposition to same-s.ex marriage and stem cell research. That's why your faith really has become everyone's business and we will continue to challenge it's validity.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:58 pm |
    • Eric G.

      @Steve: "you cannot prove a negative" is not my view or a belief, it is a fact. If you can give me an example of proving a negative, I would be impressed.

      Again, my world view is based on truth and reasonable expectation based on evidence. I cannot claim that without a shadow of a doubt there is no God. I would not make a claim of absolute knowledge without evidence. Believers and those with faith make claims of absolute knowledge without evidence by claiming there is a God without presenting evidence to support their claim. You said "faith infuses EVERY aspect of my life". Does this mean that no aspect of your life is based on reason and evidence? I would argue that the vast majority of your world view is based not in faith, but in reason. Can you make a case that faith is a path to truth?

      February 28, 2011 at 1:03 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      @ NLThat's why your faith really has become everyone's business and we will continue to challenge it's validity.
      ------
      Continue on my friend! PS I an not opposed to stem cell research (of the adult variety, that is). What is too funny to me is mere man, a creation, THINKS he is big enough to disprove God, the creator! Go for it! There is not enough brain power on this earth to sucessfully undertake that task! Bring a lunch!

      February 28, 2011 at 2:08 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      Eric G.

      @Steve: "you cannot prove a negative" is not my view or a belief, it is a fact. If you can give me an example of proving a negative, I would be impressed. Again, my world view is based on truth and reasonable expectation based on evidence. I cannot claim that without a shadow of a doubt there is no God. I would not make a claim of absolute knowledge without evidence. Believers and those with faith make claims of absolute knowledge without evidence by claiming there is a God without presenting evidence to support their claim. You said "faith infuses EVERY aspect of my life". Does this mean that no aspect of your life is based on reason and evidence? I would argue that the vast majority of your world view is based not in faith, but in reason. Can you make a case that faith is a path to truth?
      ------
      Why do you think reason is exclusive from faith? I reason a hot stove is hot and I don't touch. Why is that? As a kid, I 've touched one and the pain from the experience provided evidence that I shoul dnot touch hot stoves. That does not reduce my faith! It accompanies my faith! I have read many times while on this blog atheists who declare with certainity "there is no god". So now you are not sure?

      February 28, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • LJ

      I believe the answer you are looking for is in the sense of God being proven through science has limitations because it uses our perceptible senses to validate it. To try to use our science to prove God’s existence would mean lowering God to our level. Science has its limits and it can’t even prove or disprove there is a God. For those who have “faith” they do see God in the beauty that surrounds them, a balance so complex that it gives everything life on earth. It’s our consciousness inside us that has the ability to learn, grow and is in awe of the power that surrounds us in the universe. The fact that the moon and earth are perfectly aligned the earth is perfectly tilted at the right angle, that it’s the exact distance from the sun to sustain life. It’s when a person puts all of that together, recognizes the beauty, complexity in nature that supports their faith in God. It also comes from when a person feels love in their heart for fellow human beings that adds to their faith. Love takes faith too, we can’t see it, we can’t touch, we can’t prove its existence but deep down we feel it, we know it’s there and we use our actions to express it. It’s a personals choice to believe in a God, just like it’s a personal choice to believe in love.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • NL

      Steve the real one-
      "I an not opposed to stem cell research (of the adult variety, that is)."

      The delay being caused by superst.itious people who oppose using fetal tissue will likely cause many deaths and much pain, all avoidable. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

      "What is too funny to me is mere man, a creation, THINKS he is big enough to disprove God, the creator! Go for it! There is not enough brain power on this earth to sucessfully undertake that task! Bring a lunch!"

      Would that be the same brain power that imagines a God that cannot be detected?

      I find it just a tad ironic that you, also a mere man, thinks that if he can't imagine a proof against God then not even the combined intelligence of the entire human species can. Bit of an ego you've got there, eh?

      February 28, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • NL

      LJ-
      A man may love his wife and 'feel' that she loves him back enough to remain faithful, but that is not always the actual case is it? You may love God and you may hope that he is actually there to return love to you, but that is not proof of God's actual existence, now is it? Besides, you also have to ask yourself, since when does being in love mean that a person is thinking at their most rational? So, if you honestly believe that you love God how can you even entertain the notion that you are thinking clearly about his existence? People tend to overlook obvious flaws in those they love, right? All I am saying is that maybe your emotional attachment to the idea of God is clouding your common sense?

      Science has limitations, and God may very well be out there somewhere, but if God somehow 'belongs' within the physical world like black holes or atoms, then he ought to be detectable. If God 'does' anything within our universe that cannot be explained through science, miracles if you will, than that ought to be observable as well. The real problem is that the more that is discovered through science the less we need God to explain the workings of the universe, and some people find that too heavy a load to place upon their faith. As a believer you should ask yourself why you even care if more and more people are losing faith? Is it because this offends God, or because you can't tolerate the rising opinion that what you believe may be wrong?

      February 28, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • LJ

      NL I believe you like to argue this topic with people to stroke your personal ego and don’t really care about the people you are trying to slam regarding their beliefs. I will tell you one thing our definition of love is very different. Maybe you are not rational in love but it doesn’t apply to all of us. The problem is that you have to have faith to love, that is one point you are not recognizing. You are purposely again slamming love based of few individualistic examples without recognizing the longevity of it throughout human history. Again I say love is a choice and requires faith. You post are filled with negativity that too is your choice, unfortunately that is a sad way to live life. It probably hasn’t even crossed your mind that God gave human beings the ability to understand science so they can further appreciate life.

      “As a believer you should ask yourself why you even care if more and more people are losing faith?”
      You are making this assumption about me without any proof.

      “Is it because this offends God, or because you can't tolerate the rising opinion that what you believe may be wrong?” People are allowed to choose what they want to believe that is the beauty in life. I believe you want Christianity to be wrong so your ego will feel justified in your relentless bullying of Christians.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:28 pm |
    • The Truth

      @LJ "I will tell you one thing our definition of love is very different. Maybe you are not rational in love but it doesn’t apply to all of us. The problem is that you have to have faith to love, that is one point you are not recognizing."

      Sorry LJ, but that is absurd. You don't need faith to love. Here are some examples to prove that:

      1) I used to be very involved in organized religion. Now I am not. I loved the EXACT same way then as I do now. Faith has made ZERO difference.

      2) You can ask countless atheists if they can feel love and they will say yes.

      3) A newborn baby loves his mother and the baby is incapable of having "faith" because it can't understand the complex dogma.

      4) It doesn't even apply to humans. Go watch a mother bear or mother lion defend their cub to their death. Those animals don't have faith.

      5) Or when you come home after a hard day at work or a long vacation and your dog or cat comes running up to you, start purring, licking you, etc....

      This list goes on and on. Thus, the problem here is that you're not recognizing that your definition of love is fallacious because I've been on both sides of the equation personally and I can attest from first hand knowledge that it doesn't matter.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • LJ

      @Truth. What you are doing is equating faith with religion in your argument while I am using faith for the word that it is – without religion. “strong or unshakeable belief in something, without proof or evidence” The proof of love throughout our lives is based on our belief in love itself. Yes, love can be shown through actions, such as a mother taking care of her child. As we reach adulthood and enter into friendships and partnerships you have to have faith the person loves you. When you marry someone you have to trust and believe that they truly mean they love you till death. We have to use our language to describe love but it doesn’t prove it truly exists. Yes, it’s a feeling an emotion but is it truly real? That is where faith in love enters our lives, you believe it’s real, you feel it’s real therefore you believe in your heart it exists.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
    • LJ

      @NL "miracles if you will, than that ought to be observable as well."
      The proof of miracles is life itself, the existence of earth, the complexity of everything in the universe interacting together. You are allowed to choose what you want to believe, that is your choice.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      NL,
      Would that be the same brain power that imagines a God that cannot be detected?

      God can be detected! You just happened to shut down the transmitter (the Holy Spirit) and your reciever (your Soul). That is why you cannot detect him! You want God to show up on YOUR schedule, YOUR way. it doesn't work that way!

      I find it just a tad ironic that you, also a mere man, thinks that if he can't imagine a proof against God then not even the combined intelligence of the entire human species can. Bit of an ego you've got there, eh?

      What you call ego is mere a confident faith in my God! When what was created declares there is no creator, is that not arrogance?

      February 28, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • NL

      LJ-
      If I think that your beliefs are unfounded, and that you are hurting people because of them, then why wouldn't I at least try to talk you out of them? If you consider all criticism of your beliefs can only be the product of an ego-driven attack then what does that say about your own ego? That you don't consider anyone equal to matching your level of thinking, so they must be lashing out in jealousy?

      "Maybe you are not rational in love but it doesn’t apply to all of us."
      Really? If you have a spouse you decided to fall in love with them after charting all the pros and cons through an intensive study? Anyway, that's just ordinary love between people, not the kind of love that Christians claim to have for Jesus, which some say is greater than the love they feel for their spouses, their parents, their siblings and even their children.

      "unfortunately that is a sad way to live life."
      Well, what's more 'sad'? Accepting the evidence that suggests that God isn't really there, and dealing with that fact...,
      or pretending that there is a God who helps people (, sometimes, kinda), when the evidence shows otherwise?

      "You are making this assumption about me without any proof."
      If you don't care about people losing their faith then why are you posting in rebuttal? Surely it's not just to fuel your ego, is it?

      "People are allowed to choose what they want to believe that is the beauty in life. I believe you want Christianity to be wrong so your ego will feel justified in your relentless bullying of Christians."
      I can just as easily turn that onto Christians who want desperately for science and reason to be wrong. So desperately in fact that they want God to end the world right now just to prove to non-believers that we were wrong.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • NL

      LJ-
      "The proof of miracles is life itself, the existence of earth, the complexity of everything in the universe interacting together. You are allowed to choose what you want to believe, that is your choice."
      Life can be understood without resorting to belief in miracles.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:49 pm |
    • LJ

      Wow NL you do love to play with words don’t you. Twisting and turning them to justify yourself. Where do you get lashing out in jealousy this is just another assumption on your part. As for the hurting people, you don’t know me at all, you are lum-ping me into the bible-thum-ping crowd making yet again more assumptions. There are some crazy Christians out there, I will agree with you, but you can’t lump every spiritual person in with those crazy people, just because they don’t happen to agree with your version of reality. As for the miracle debate, one of the definitions of miracles is event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause, then the creation of the universe fits that definition. Science and astrologer have agreed in the big bang theory for the creation of the universe, it’s that bang that can quality as supernatural. I am surprised that so many aren't in more awe over the beauty on this earth as we gain more understanding and knowledge on what is happening around us. Haven't you ever had the chair argument? Is it really a chair? Or is iit something more than just a chair? How far is your mind willing to go....LOL

      February 28, 2011 at 5:17 pm |
    • Magic

      LJ,

      "...it’s that bang that can quality as supernatural."

      And that bang can qualify as perfectly natural also. We must wait for more information. Just because we don't have it yet does not automatically mean that a god did it.

      What makes you so sure that the awesomeness of nature isn't marveled about and appreciated?

      February 28, 2011 at 6:04 pm |
    • Magic

      LJ,

      p.s. I have seen numerous posts by NL. He has always been well-informed, wise, honest and fair. You do yourself no credit by casting aspersions on him.

      February 28, 2011 at 6:09 pm |
    • LJ

      "And that bang can qualify as perfectly natural also. We must wait for more information. Just because we don't have it yet does not automatically mean that a god did it." It's the simple fact that it happened and is unexplained that spiritual people use it as a way to say why they believe in a God.

      As for your aspersions comment NL has been belittling posters here about their beliefs but because you support his view point of the world you see his posts honest and fair. i do not. People are allowed to live their lives as they see fit as long as they are not harming others in the process. The problem with NL's post is he is lumping anyone who is spiritual into on big group based on the misdeeds of a few. To criticize an entire group based on the actions of a few is contemptuous.

      February 28, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
    • LJ

      NL do you believe you have a soul? The foundation of spirituality is that a person has a soul. If you don't believe you do then this debate is mute for you so why are you continually debating on this forum?

      February 28, 2011 at 6:58 pm |
    • The Truth

      ***@LJ What you are doing is equating faith with religion in your argument while I am using faith for the word that it is – without religion. “strong or unshakeable belief in something, without proof or evidence”***

      OK, fair enough.

      ***The proof of love throughout our lives is based on our belief in love itself. Yes, love can be shown through actions, such as a mother taking care of her child.****

      Does a baby love her mother? If so, the baby doesn't have a "belief" in love.

      ***When you marry someone you have to trust and believe that they truly mean they love you till death.****

      I beg to differ. All one needs to do is turn on the Jerry Springer show to find countless people who are in love with someone else who they don't trust or have faith in.

      Hugh Heffner got married and it's not like he's going to be monogamous.

      And so on and so forth...

      ****We have to use our language to describe love but it doesn’t prove it truly exists.****

      This is just a matter of semantics.

      ***Yes, it’s a feeling an emotion but is it truly real? That is where faith in love enters our lives, you believe it’s real, you feel it’s real therefore you believe in your heart it exists. ****

      This gets into the philosophy of what is and isn't "real." This would take us pages upon pages upon pages to discuss. If you're truly interested though, you could start looking into philosophical topics such as ontology and philosophers such as Plato, Kierkegaard, Rousselot, Aquinas, Jung, etc all discuss the topic of love in depth.

      Cheers!
      🙂

      February 28, 2011 at 6:58 pm |
    • NL

      LJ-
      Actually, you're right. I intend my comments to exclude believers who keep their beliefs to themselves and who don't support social injustices, and in that sense I meant my posts to those who consider themselves large capital 'C' Christians. You know, the ones who consider folks like Crossan not a real Christian just because he questions Jesus' divinity. If I offended you then I am sorry.

      Now, on to your ideas about the supernatural origins of the universe. In what sense do you believe that scientists wouldn't consider whatever caused the big bang natural?

      February 28, 2011 at 7:06 pm |
    • LJ

      @The Truth I am not going to continue to argue love with you and I have read many of those philosophy books. For a spiritual person it's the soul that brings love into existence. A soul that all living creatures are born with if you are a spiritual person. When you take that into account that answers your questions regarding the examples you have given.If you don't believe in a soul then the point is mute for you. If you look at the original question I am answering the poster wanted another example of faith. I was merely pushing the conversation along.

      Oh and who the heck is Jerry Springer? I don't watch much TV.

      February 28, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
    • NL

      LJ-
      I believe that I have a unique personality, but not an eternal soul, if that's what you mean. My personality has changed over the years and I've seen how the effects of drugs have changed other people as well, so how can there be anything lasting about it? I've never seen a ghost so maybe that's why I'm a skeptic. Besides, what's the point of going on after death anyway?

      This forum, the CNN belief blog, is aimed at people with a diverse range of beliefs, as evidenced by the numerous articles directly referencing atheism.

      February 28, 2011 at 11:08 pm |
    • NL

      Steve the real one-
      "God can be detected! You just happened to shut down the transmitter (the Holy Spirit) and your reciever (your Soul). That is why you cannot detect him! You want God to show up on YOUR schedule, YOUR way. it doesn't work that way!"

      And everyone can actually tap into their past lives and contact their spirit guides if their hearts are purified, but to get to your point, is the Holy Spirit there for everyone, all the time, or is he sent to specific people at particular times in their lives? If the HS is like an old-time radio signal on general broadcast and only a few people happen to be tuned in to his channel, that's one thing, but if he picks and chooses who he visits according to God's schedule, then that's predestination, right? If God only shows up whenever he feels like it perhaps I'm not predestined to get a visit from the HS which is why I don't believe in him. It's like UFOs, ghosts, and the Loch Ness monster then. Everyone's a skeptic until they see one.

      "What you call ego is mere a confident faith in my God! When what was created declares there is no creator, is that not arrogance?"
      And I have confidence in reason and what the evidence tells me, which is that it's far more likely that there is no God than that there is one.

      Humans have created many things, yes? Ideas, stories, fictional characters and even thousands of mythical false gods. What arrogance is it to dismiss the skepticism that your God isn't like all the rest, and to scoff at suggestions that you find proof to support your claim that your's is actually real? Are we merely to trust your word on this? Ask the folks who trusted Bernie Madoff if that was such a good idea.

      February 28, 2011 at 11:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Eric G, we are free to know His truth whereas, you are conditioned to believe the lies of satan.

      Read John 8:44 to understand who's zooming, whom.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:12 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, you didn't learn that babble baloney from His truth (the Bible), you learned that babble from new age crap directed from satan himself to humans to confuse you ... See John 8:44

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      LJ, Springer is just another pawn of satans to confuse and blind the masses from Jesus' truth. Notice how this generation rebuff Jesus. They all have the same mantra ... to bash Christians for reading, comprehending and abiding in His truth.

      They are blinded, blinded, blinded ... eyes that can not see. Ears that can not hear. Blinded and conditioned by those that follow the anti-christ ... all taking as many with them to the eternal flames. Zap, then NO MORE.

      No evil makes it's way to heaven.

      No morals, no ethics, no kindness, no decency, no love, only lust, no, no, no .... NO truth from Jesus, only lies from satan do they all believe.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:37 am |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Again, I reached my understanding long before I ever read anything written from an avowed atheist. It's true that I read more than the Bible, but it sure wasn't "new age crap", or even science in the beginning. What really enlightened me was reading the old myths of Greece, Rome, Egypt, and the Norse, amongst others. The parallels to the Bible stories are truly amazing. Then I got into reading Eastern philosophy and the Hindu scriptures and, to make a long story short, once I was able to see the Bible in the broader context of comparable ancient writings all of the mystique I was indoctrinated into believing about the Bible, about how special and unique it was, simply evaporated.

      So, there you have it. I read the Bible on my own and I came to my own conclusions about it, just as you ask people to do. I question your sincerity, then, when people follow your advice and you still end up criticizing them simply because they come away with different views than your own. Are you sure that this just isn't your hurt ego getting the better of you?

      March 1, 2011 at 11:52 am |
    • Steve the real one

      NL,

      And everyone can actually tap into their past lives and contact their spirit guides if their hearts are purified, but to get to your point, is the Holy Spirit there for everyone, all the time, or is he sent to specific people at particular times in their lives?

      1. I said nothing about a spirit guide. As someone already pointed out. That is new-age and demonic!
      2. Yes the Holy Spirit is here all the time and available to EVERY believer! It is He that leads us into ALL truth and it is HE that reminds us of the words of the Lord!

      What arrogance is it to dismiss the skepticism that your God isn't like all the rest, and to scoff at suggestions that you find proof to support your claim that your's is actually real?

      If what you described is arrogance, then Yes, I am arrogant!

      Are we merely to trust your word on this? Ask the folks who trusted Bernie Madoff if that was such a good idea.

      Trusting MY words? You are not even trusting God's words! Comparing a jailed liar and theft to the Holy Spirit NL, is beyond laughable! I hope you would something more than that!

      March 1, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
    • NL

      Steve the real one-

      And everyone can actually tap into their past lives and contact their spirit guides if their hearts are purified, but to get to your point, is the Holy Spirit there for everyone, all the time, or is he sent to specific people at particular times in their lives?

      "1. I said nothing about a spirit guide. As someone already pointed out. That is new-age and demonic!"
      My point is that new age mumbo jumbo all sounds very much the same as the Holy Spirit/ Being 'Saved' mumbo jumbo, and I doubt that you can demonstrate how the two significantly differ regarding the quality and outlandish nature of their claims. You seem to have some bias that allows you to prefer one set of these objectively equally unprovable beliefs over the other, but as a skeptic without such a bias I reject both.

      "2. Yes the Holy Spirit is here all the time and available to EVERY believer! It is He that leads us into ALL truth and it is HE that reminds us of the words of the Lord!"
      Available to every believer, but how available is he to non-believers? You seem to be making the case that you have to believe in the Holy Spirit in order to... Believe in the Holy Spirit which seems a tad circular as far as arguments go. And how about the non-believers in your own midst? How about the children of Christians? Do they need to be taught to believe in the Holy Spirit, to expect some sign that He is nearby, taught how to judge what is a sign of the Holy Spirit in order to some day come to believe in him during the process some Christians call being 'saved'?

      "If what you described is arrogance, then Yes, I am arrogant!"
      Need I draw the obvious conclusions about what this says regarding how open-minded you are and how large your ego must be?

      "Trusting MY words? You are not even trusting God's words! Comparing a jailed liar and theft to the Holy Spirit NL, is beyond laughable! I hope you would something more than that!"
      If you mean the Bible when you say "God's words" then I will remind you of what I said about reading the Bible personally. I have read the Bible quite often and my understanding happens to be different than yours, an outcome that you seem unable to comprehend. Now, you claim to 'know' the proper message of the Bible, but you offer no specific credential for being more trustworthy an interpreter than Crossan, whose academic history and awards are a matter of public record.

      Simply put, you appear to be just another armchair, or should I say pew bound, scholar criticizing the works of a professional. If I were a betting man I'd wager that if I give any dozen of you frequent defenders of the faith posters here a series of identical questions about your understanding of 'proper' Christian belief I would get exactly twelve differing views.

      March 1, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, I don't understand why all you folks rank on Jesus' spiritual teachings about morals, ethics, taking responsibility for your life, as well as respecting others and wanting them to take responsibility for their lives to ... That's called harmony, living among each other. Jesus teaches us how to be the best that He wants us to be. Ohhhhhhhhhhh, but some sinners don't want to give up their sinful natures and bash Christians for us wanting to over come the sins of the flesh. Well, all I can say is too BAD for you!

      As far as science is concerned, Christians believe in true science. As a matter of fact, science is proving scriptures written by men, inspired by God's holy spirit to be true. We just have to have our eyes open to what His scriptures teach us. As for other fables etc. Big deal? Rip off of Jesus' truth ... all putting their spin on Adam and Eve, calling them something else. Same with the other individuals described in scriptures. Rip off's of Jesus' truth, calling it another name. So, what's your point?

      March 2, 2011 at 4:54 am |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      So, Jesus is about morals, eh? But, wait, some Christians don't actually believe that good morals lead to heaven, do they. They think that since they could never be absolutely good then why bother striving for that goal. Getting into heaven only requires being 'saved' then (hopefully) the good morals will follow, right? Still, if you insist upon the idea of original sin and that we're all some kind of 'sinaholics', wouldn't it work better to take it one day at a time, doing our best not to hurt others, like the rest of us?

      Apart from that, do Christians really follow Jesus' morals? Didn't he do away with all the Old testament Law, including the Commandments, in favor of his own version of the already well known 'Golden Rule'? Have you read the article about students and the Commandments? Wouldn't Jesus be advocating that Christians be respectful of other people's feelings in that there would be any number of things they would feel uncomfortable having displayed? That's what 'Doing onto others' is all about, right?

      That aside it really is quite easy to develop a moral code that doesn't depend upon some heavenly 'carrot or stick' mentality, or some Santa-like invisible nanny to keep people honest. One that doesn't insist upon pressing restrictions that have no place in a grown-up society with little more than a 'Jest Because' base of reasoning. When it does this Christianity in fact insists upon treating people like children without the capacity of being able to look after themselves, and check their own behavior. We really can do better. It's time to grow up and stand on our own two feet, and move out of the "Heavenly Father's" house.

      Now onto your views of science. You seem to be saying that the only science that is 'real' is science that passes a litmus test for matching dogma. But, whose dogma should it match? Yours? Do you have the exact same dogma as all Christians, including Catholics and Mormons? Hmm... Now you need a litmus test for who is a 'real' Christian to go with the one you need for real science.

      Myths a rip-off of Jesus? The Greek myths were around long before Jesus. The Greeks perfected the idea of the demigod in Hercules. Look up the parallels between the two, and the parallels between Jesus and other 'dying and rising' heros. Any attempts to dismiss all other mythologies as being copies of the Hebrew ones doesn't wash when you consider the shared themes with the mythologies of Native American, South Pacific and other groups that didn't have contact with the Hebrews (unless you count Mormon history as authentic). My point is that the early Hebrew stories are just their old mythology, but you can make the case that they did teach values that were important to the society. Creation: The importance of the sabbath. Adam and Eve: How evil came into the world (and why women are second class and not to be trusted with decision-making.)

      You really can't judge the Bible in isolation. Try reading the other ancient texts, other scriptures and mythologies as a comparison. You'll be amazed at how much the Bible shares with these, and how unoriginal it really is.

      March 2, 2011 at 10:27 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL

      HeavenSent-
      So, Jesus is about morals, eh? But, wait, some Christians don't actually believe that good morals lead to heaven, do they. They think that since they could never be absolutely good then why bother striving for that goal. Getting into heaven only requires being 'saved' then (hopefully) the good morals will follow, right? Still, if you insist upon the idea of original sin and that we're all some kind of 'sinaholics', wouldn't it work better to take it one day at a time, doing our best not to hurt others, like the rest of us?

      Answer: There is a difference of Christians that read Jesus truth, comprehending what He teaches, and applying His wisdom to our lives, versus Christians that attend Church, listen to scriptures, never to follow through on what was taught by studying their Bible. Free will, remember. Same with college courses. If you skip most of the classes, then show up for a few, slinked by with a passing grade. Did you really retain the information taught?

      Apart from that, do Christians really follow Jesus' morals? Didn't he do away with all the Old testament Law, including the Commandments, in favor of his own version of the already well known 'Golden Rule'? Have you read the article about students and the Commandments? Wouldn't Jesus be advocating that Christians be respectful of other people's feelings in that there would be any number of things they would feel uncomfortable having displayed? That's what 'Doing onto others' is all about, right?

      Answer: The Golden rule is some, not all, of Jesus’ teachings for non-believers to learn His truth without knowing where it came from.

      The Old Testament goes hand in hand with the New Testament. The New Testament follows through with what is in the Old Testament. Christians learn both.

      I am doing unto others as they are doing unto me on this blog. You are bashing Jesus, therefore, I am standing up for His teachings. Are you telling me it’s OK for you to look down your nose at me and other Christians for our beliefs in Jesus Christ and we aren’t suppose to treat you in kind? Get over yourself. Christians will always stand up for our Lord and Savior to anyone that has no clue, no respect and shove their way into our lives to throw Jesus to the curb. If you don’t like what I said. Tough. Not my problem.

      That aside it really is quite easy to develop a moral code that doesn't depend upon some heavenly 'carrot or stick' mentality, or some Santa-like invisible nanny to keep people honest. One that doesn't insist upon pressing restrictions that have no place in a grown-up society with little more than a 'Jest Because' base of reasoning. When it does this Christianity in fact insists upon treating people like children without the capacity of being able to look after themselves, and check their own behavior. We really can do better. It's time to grow up and stand on our own two feet, and move out of the "Heavenly Father's" house.

      Answer: Too bad for you if you can’t figure out where His teachings came from as you run around like a chicken with your head cut off following this path, that path, off the path, on the path seeking His wisdom from false religions. Again, not my problem.

      You are a child, with child like concepts due to not studying your heritage that comes from Jesus Christ, and, only Jesus Christ.

      Stand on your own two feet all you want. What’s to say someone is going to follow your way of thinking at all times? Oh, when it suits your purpose and the other person’s purpose at that given time? Then when the other person no longer has the need to fit into your life, they drop you and move on ... fitting into someone else’s concepts of what is moral, what is acceptable? Jesus’ truth stands for eternity. You either learn it, comprehend it and apply it to your life, throughout your life, or you don’t. Free will. Just because you refuse to learn His truth, does Not mean Christians are to follow suit in your refusal.

      Now onto your views of science. You seem to be saying that the only science that is 'real' is science that passes a litmus test for matching dogma. But, whose dogma should it match? Yours? Do you have the exact same dogma as all Christians, including Catholics and Mormons? Hmm... Now you need a litmus test for who is a 'real' Christian to go with the one you need for real science.

      Answer: Catholics and Mormons are Christians who abide in and apply Jesus’ teachings to their lives. Therefore, of course we are checking what science discovers and comparing with Jesus’ truth (scriptures in the Bible). Only, when both match, does His truth unveil for all to see. If that’s a problem for non-believers. Again, too bad.

      Myths a rip-off of Jesus? The Greek myths were around long before Jesus. The Greeks perfected the idea of the demigod in Hercules. Look up the parallels between the two, and the parallels between Jesus and other 'dying and rising' heros. Any attempts to dismiss all other mythologies as being copies of the Hebrew ones doesn't wash when you consider the shared themes with the mythologies of Native American, South Pacific and other groups that didn't have contact with the Hebrews (unless you count Mormon history as authentic). My point is that the early Hebrew stories are just their old mythology, but you can make the case that they did teach values that were important to the society. Creation: The importance of the sabbath. Adam and Eve: How evil came into the world (and why women are second class and not to be trusted with decision-making.)

      Answer: You have the right to follow any myth you want. No one is stopping you. Don’t expect Christians to drop everything they learned about their heritage from Jesus Christ and follow you to la-la, land myths that teach babble baloney as you seek for His truth in life.

      Women have the most important role in Jesus’ teachings. They love and respect their parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins, husband, children and everyone in community while applying what Jesus taught her to everyone that comes in contact with her life. Women are the keepers of His truth ensuring everyone learns, comprehends and applies His teachings to their lives. Women pass down from generation to generation, His truth. Because you don’t read, or if you have read the Bible, don’t understand it. I have been supplying truth regarding Jesus’ teachings on this site, as well as other learned Christians. Also, there are plenty of places you can study with other Christians that know more about His truth than the new student. I know His teachings are confusing and overwhelming at first, but, it does get easier as soon as your apprehensions fall to the wayside. The more you study, the more of His wisdom is revealed. That’s just the way it works.

      You really can't judge the Bible in isolation. Try reading the other ancient texts, other scriptures and mythologies as a comparison. You'll be amazed at how much the Bible shares with these, and how unoriginal it really is.

      Answer: I took ethics in college. I studied the above mentioned materials. So what? I don’t care to apply Plato or Socrates or the other teachings to my life. I know about them. Big deal. If you want to attend gatherings with like minded individuals that are ga-ga over them, feel free. Your choice.

      I am also responding to the last part of your other post ... “If you mean the Bible when you say "God's words" then I will remind you of what I said about reading the Bible personally. I have read the Bible quite often and my understanding happens to be different than yours, an outcome that you seem unable to comprehend. Now, you claim to 'know' the proper message of the Bible, but you offer no specific credential for being more trustworthy an interpreter than Crossan, whose academic history and awards are a matter of public record.

      Simply put, you appear to be just another armchair, or should I say pew bound, scholar criticizing the works of a professional. If I were a betting man I'd wager that if I give any dozen of you frequent defenders of the faith posters here a series of identical questions about your understanding of 'proper' Christian belief I would get exactly twelve differing views.”

      Answer: I retained all of Jesus’ teachings as a positive in my life. However, you want to view His teachings in the negative. This is what Christians call lightness versus darkness. That saddens my heart to hear you keep a negative view instead of seeing the positive of all His teachings, but, you will live with your views, not me. It’s the same theory as if the glass is half full or half empty. You own how you view the glass.

      Amen.

      March 2, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-

      “versus Christians that attend Church, listen to scriptures, never to follow through on what was taught by studying their Bible”
      Here is where I think our differences lie. You appear to have a very narrow view of who a ‘real’ Christian is. Moderates, those who don’t use Christ as a club against others, probably wouldn’t pass your definition of what a capital ‘C’ Christian ought to be. You appear to believe that Catholics and Mormons could be Christians, but only as long as they share your view that science must always strictly conform with your view of scriptural truth. I can’t speak for Mormons, but I spent much of my life as a moderate Catholic, one of the majority party of all Christians I believe, and we had no difficulty accepting scientific principals regarding evolution and the age of the universe, for example. Mel Gibson is a rare example in my experience of the Church. So, what I’m saying is that you really wouldn’t be including many folks from those traditions under your banner, would you?

      “You are bashing Jesus, therefore, I am standing up for His teachings.”
      Ah, that would be YOUR interpretation of Jesus’ teachings, right? I know that you may live in an area of the country saturated with folks who are very like-minded with you, but you have to be cognisant of the fact that most Christians would disagree with many of your views. I know, they’re ‘moderates’ so they don’t count in your book, but in the bigger picture of the entire religion it is you who are in the minority opinion of what his teachings actually mean. You believe you are right, but so does everyone else. You have an opinion, I have an opinion, Crossan has an opinion, everyone else has an opinion. It's like that saying about that orifice we all have below our belts.

      Jesus, the man, actually did have a lot of wise things to say, and people who follow what the man had to teach can craft a fair set of morals out of his words to live by. It’s the Christ that some Christians imagine him to be now that I find rather offensive. The vindictive, warrior-hand of God that some Christians gleefully fantasize will cut down THEIR enemies at the end of days, I believe, is a thing of the imagination which some people embrace because they feel powerful imagining him being on their side. That’s what I see all of this picking fights over issues like gay marriage and evolution is all about. It's an effort to narrow the definition to an exclusive elite, where few are right in their beliefs and few are invited into heaven.

      I find your "Not my problem" att.itude pretty much sums it all up. Ask yourself, would heaven have the same meaning for you if everyone actually made it inside? I know that you can quote scripture that says otherwise, but I'm asking what if God were more compassionate that you give him credit for, would you be OK with that, or would you be upset that the people you think deserve punishment got away? Basically, would the 'free' gift of salvation have as much value for you if it really was free?

      "Are you telling me it’s OK for you to look down your nose at me and other Christians for our beliefs in Jesus Christ and we aren’t suppose to treat you in kind?"
      I wouldn't tell you to shut up and keep quiet. Open discussion about religion is all that I'm here for. Say what you will. I, for one, find it very illuminating.

      March 3, 2011 at 12:06 pm |
  4. CW

    Well well well,

    I see all the non believers posts...I haven't read them all just scanned them. Same ol' blah blah blah blah....ending with no proof OR TRUTH that God doesn't exist. To comment on the story if this person has done something to blasphem God then on judgement day he will face the fault of his actions. Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that God doesn't exist. I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that God does exist.

    February 28, 2011 at 10:15 am |
    • Eric G.

      Your condecending tone aside, please explain why you have faith.

      February 28, 2011 at 10:23 am |
    • The Truth

      @CW "Well well well,I see all the non believers posts...I haven't read them all just scanned them. Same ol' blah blah blah blah....ending with no proof OR TRUTH that God doesn't exist. Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that God doesn't exist."

      LOL... Wow... a non-believer can't prove it? You're just a modern day Plato now aren't you?

      Here's the best part about this... what you are doing is putting forth an "argument from ignorance." That's actually the literal terminology of what it is called, but in your case it is a double entendre.

      This is a logical fallacy because you can't reach a conclusion based on the lack of knowing something exists. In other words, you can't disprove a negative as what is commonly said.

      Let me replace the word God with other items that can't be proven either way:

      "Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist."

      "Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that Yoda doesn't exist."

      "Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist."

      "Fact of the matter is this....NOT ONE non-believer can prove that Santa doesn't exist."

      Etc, etc, etc.

      Wow... you sure showed us.

      The part that is disturbing is that this concept is obviously of importance to you, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Thus, you are basing at least part of your "faith" on fallacious philosophical logic.

      ****"I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that God does exist."****

      This is what you are saying:

      "I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that the Easter Bunny does exist."

      "I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that Yoda does exist."

      "I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that the Tooth Fairy does exist."

      "I don't need proof...I have what is called FAITH...FAITH...FAITH...that Santa does exist."

      It's illogical.

      Peace!

      February 28, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      That's simple Eric G, look around you and what do you see? The sun in the sky, the flowers, the trees, all the people, all the animals, the rain, the snow, the moon, the air that you breath, babies being born, and on and on to the mountains to the seas, the streams of the rivers ... to, to ... tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa YOU.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:04 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, you think yourself so brilliant for accepting all the conditioning they did to you.

      End of days, son, end of days.

      Once, did I see the real you with conditioned beliefs, when you blogged to me on your conditioned post of what you assume to believe and how it has conditioned your gray matter.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:08 am |
  5. Nonimus

    @HeavenSent,
    "The Bible explains this earth age that we all live in now, starting back with God creating the world again because He destroyed the first earth age ..."
    What is an earth age?

    February 28, 2011 at 9:55 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Age is the time you are living in ... this 2nd earth age. The first earth age was when dinosaurs roamed. Or, did you still see them roaming the earth.

      The 3rd earth age is when God comes back to destroy evil.

      Question that all of you should ask is, will you be dwelling with God and the rest of those that conduct righteousness as their choice in life that is pleasing to Him?

      March 1, 2011 at 3:59 am |
    • Nonimus

      @HeavenSent,
      "Age is the time you are living in ... this 2nd earth age. The first earth age was when dinosaurs roamed."
      I wasn't aware of different Ages in the Bible, what identifies them? What was the Age before the dinosaurs?

      "Or, did you still see them roaming the earth." I'm not sure what this means.

      March 1, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Nonimus, the foundation of the world occurred first called "The Beginning".

      The destruction of the first Earth Age can be found in the following Books:

      2 Peter 3:5-6

      5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
      6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

      This is not referring to the flood of Noah's time. Noah and his family survived that deluge, but below we see that no one survived the destruction of the First Earth Age (Katabole). See "When was the Beginning".

      Jeremiah 4:23-27

      23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
      24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
      25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
      26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
      27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

      Some of the events of the 1st earth age in the following Books:

      Job 40:15-19
      Matthew 3:28
      2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
      Revelation 2:9
      Revelation 12:4
      Daniel 11:21
      Leviticus 18:22
      Revelation 3:15-17
      Romans 11:4
      2 Peter 3:6
      Ezekiel 28:18-19
      Revelation 20:10

      Then we get to understand Genesis. I'll explain what you need to look for in Genesis that confuses folks for not putting the above scriptures in order so that we can comprehend the 2nd earth age (that we live in now ... aka Genesis – Revelation).

      Good night.

      March 2, 2011 at 4:32 am |
    • Nonimus

      @HeavenSent,
      I guess if you want to interpret it that way, that's up to you. It looks to me like Peter 3:5-6 could be talking about Noah's flood, but also could be talking about a bunch of things. And isn't Jeremiah 4:23-27 describing what will happen if the people of Israel / Judea don't obey God?

      Jeremiah 4:3-4

      This is what the LORD says to the people of Judah and to Jerusalem:

      “Break up your unplowed ground
      and do not sow among thorns.
      4 Circu.mcise yourselves to the LORD,
      circu.mcise your hearts,
      you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
      or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire
      because of the evil you have done—
      burn with no one to quench it."

      But I won't argue about this stuff because I'm not really qualified to do that. You answered my question though, in that you get the age of Earth from an interpretation of scripture.
      Thank you.

      March 2, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • Nonimus

      ...you get the age of Earth from an interpretation of scripture.
      should be more like:
      ...you get the 'Ages of Earth' from an interpretation of scripture.

      March 2, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
  6. akhter

    Surly , to make an idol of any form and to worship it is blasphemes in it self,so remove all the idols from your houses and churches.Once that is done ,then point fingers at some one else.

    February 28, 2011 at 9:31 am |
    • NL

      But, by the way so many believers treat their scriptures, it's easy to mistake their reverence for these books as actual 'worship', isn't it? The threat to burn a Qur'an or a Bible these days has the same effect as smashing the idols of your enemy in the old days.

      That's why people get so upset with things like the Jesus Seminar. They see it as an effort to peel away the gold inlay from their particular idol because it's not God that they worship really. God can be made into any image. He can even be 'Love' incarnate, or just the embodiment of the universe's fixed laws. No, they actually worship the Bible, which happens to include one particular, rigid view of God.

      February 28, 2011 at 10:19 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I find it ironic that for this end days generation to refuse to read God's truth (the Bible) by saying they have a mind of their own (LOL) what was conditioned for them to believe.

      Who's zooming who, folks?

      March 1, 2011 at 3:55 am |
  7. David Johnson

    Crossan said: "Consider his understanding of the resurrection. Jesus didn't bodily rise from the dead, he says. The first Christians told Jesus' resurrection story as a parable, not as a fact."

    I've been telling the fundies this, for ages! I would be proud to call Crossan, "Grandpa"!

    Cheers!

    February 28, 2011 at 8:43 am |
    • Justina

      David, the first Christians had talked with the resurrected Jesus, touched His hands with wounds, and had meals with Him – saw Him ate. They all died martyr's death because they claimed the fact of Jesus' bodily resurrection, the truth they know firsthand.

      February 28, 2011 at 9:11 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Justina

      Well... That is what the Gospels say. But:

      There were no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The Gospels were written by god knows who in the third person. The Gospels were written with an agenda i.e., Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God.

      We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
      -Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

      The bottom line is we really don't know for sure who wrote the Gospels.
      -Jerome Neyrey, of the Weston School of Theology, Cambridge, Mass. in "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

      Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.
      -C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

      There are no known secular writings about Jesus, that aren't forgeries, later insertions, or hearsay. NONE!
      Most of the writings came from people who lived AFTER Jesus was dead. Can you say heresay?

      We don't even have a wooden shelf that Jesus might have built. Or anything written by Jesus (He was probably illiterate).

      The Dead Sea Scrolls did not mention Jesus or have any New Testament scripture.

      Jesus, if he existed, was not considered important enough to write about by any contemporary person. The myth hadn't had a chance to flourish.

      Paul's writings were the first, about Jesus. But, Paul's writing was done 25 to 30 years after Jesus was dead. In a primitive, ultra-supersti_tious society, 25 years is a lot of time for a myth to grow. Paul never met Jesus.

      Some people feel that Paul, not Jesus, is the real father of what most Christians believe today (Pauline Christianity).

      Questions on the Crucifixion story:
      "Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save." Mark 15:31

      "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe..." Mark 15:32

      It would appear, that the chief priests are admitting that Jesus "saved" others. If they knew this, then there is no reason for them to demand that Jesus descend from the cross, in order for them to believe. They already admitted to knowing of Jesus's "miracles".

      I'm sure you will apply Evangelical gymnastics to these verses, but taken literally it would seem that this is just an embellishment by Mark. A work of fiction.

      Here is some more:
      According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."

      Yet not a single mention of a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone. 'Cause it didn't happen!

      Mathew 27 51:53
      51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

      How come nobody wrote about zombies running through the cities? 'Cause it is all b.s.

      If Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, who died for man's redemption, then this would be the most important event in the history of man.

      Why wouldn't god have ensured there was tons of evidence that this was true? Multiple Writings by contemporary eyewitnesses – Jews and Romans.

      You are going to want to say that there is lots of evidence, but look at reality: There are way more people, in the world, who are not Christians than who are. Obviously, the evidence is not adequate to convince most if not all people.

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 10:39 am |
    • Reality

      Since the topic is about Crossan's views, a short analyis of his take on the crucifixion plus some added supporting references used by contemporary NT scholars:

      From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

      "That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

      “ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

      “While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

      “My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

      I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

      See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

      Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

      Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.

      There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus

      See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

      From ask.com,

      "One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

      Then there are these scriptural references:

      Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

      Added suggested readings:

      o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.

      2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
      – a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–

      30-60 CE Passion Narrative
      40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
      50-60 1 Thessalonians
      50-60 Philippians
      50-60 Galatians
      50-60 1 Corinthians
      50-60 2 Corinthians
      50-60 Romans
      50-60 Philemon
      50-80 Colossians
      50-90 Signs Gospel
      50-95 Book of Hebrews
      50-120 Didache
      50-140 Gospel of Thomas
      50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
      50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
      65-80 Gospel of Mark
      70-100 Epistle of James
      70-120 Egerton Gospel
      70-160 Gospel of Peter
      70-160 Secret Mark
      70-200 Fayyum Fragment
      70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
      73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
      80-100 2 Thessalonians
      80-100 Ephesians
      80-100 Gospel of Matthew
      80-110 1 Peter
      80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
      80-130 Gospel of Luke
      80-130 Acts of the Apostles
      80-140 1 Clement
      80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
      80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
      80-250 Christian Sibyllines
      90-95 Apocalypse of John
      90-120 Gospel of John
      90-120 1 John
      90-120 2 John
      90-120 3 John
      90-120 Epistle of Jude
      93 Flavius Josephus
      100-150 1 Timothy
      100-150 2 Timothy
      100-150 T-itus
      100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
      100-150 Secret Book of James
      100-150 Preaching of Peter
      100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
      100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
      100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
      100-160 2 Peter

      3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
      – "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"

      4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
      5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
      6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
      7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
      8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
      joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
      9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
      10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
      (Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
      by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
      11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
      Presented on March 18, 1994
      ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
      12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
      wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
      13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
      faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html
      14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
      mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
      15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
      mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
      16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
      17. Diseases in the Bible:
      etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
      18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
      theologians, ethics, etc.
      religion-online.org/
      19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
      mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
      20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
      21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
      ntgateway.com/
      22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
      members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
      23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
      24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
      25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
      faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
      26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
      27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
      28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
      infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
      29. NT and beyond time line:
      pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
      30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
      harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
      31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
      32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
      33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
      34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
      35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus

      February 28, 2011 at 11:21 am |
  8. Reality

    Some more words of wisdom from Crossan: (From his book, Who is Jesus, co-authored with Watts)

    "That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

    “ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

    “While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

    “My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

    I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

    See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

    February 28, 2011 at 7:20 am |
  9. doctore0

    SPOILER: There is no god, all religions are 100% man made.

    February 28, 2011 at 4:01 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Then I suppose doctorezero, you are just an illusion! No reflection in that mirror?

      February 28, 2011 at 4:11 am |
    • Justina

      Men and women are God-made but some of them ignore their Creator.

      February 28, 2011 at 8:01 am |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      @Justina

      God was created by man, because man was scared of death, and because he didn't understand very much of the world around him. God was born out of man's desire to control events.

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 8:47 am |
    • Justina

      David, why is there death in this world? Because man sinned. Man is not afraid of death but of the ultimate judgment after death because man's spirit knows there is judgment. Atheists push away the idea of supreme God to be in control.

      February 28, 2011 at 9:06 am |
    • Nonimus

      @Justina,
      Death has been around a lot longer than Man has – by billions of years.

      February 28, 2011 at 9:58 am |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson, death is one of satan's other names. If anyone doesn't understand what is going on in this world, it's your generation. All conditioned by the anti-christ as he schooled you into your beliefs, penned the books that you read, had the movies that you watched, TV watched, music listened to etc.

      What, you think your generation wasn't purposely made to hate your Lord and Savior.

      You really thing you use your own minds. You all say the same ole same ole. All bashing Jesus, telling folks that follow Him are brainwashed, when you are the ones brainwashed never to read His truth that he left all of us to read.

      The Bible was written how many years ago? Same truth from the beginning until the end. You are the end generation ... why does satan work so hard for you not to know your heritage, your truth in Jesus ... our God?

      I'm just shaking my head for all of you blinded in this generation. When you see a rainbow, that is God telling you to remember the promises He made to all of us. Do you know those promises?

      Open your eyes to see, your ears to hear.

      I'm pray for you as well as your entire generation to learn the Truth from His word.

      Amen.

      P.S. if anyone is being controlled, remember this truth ... it's your generation. The last generation for end of days. When Jesus comes back and destroys death (aka satan) and all that follows him to the eternal flames.

      March 1, 2011 at 5:02 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent "David Johnson, death is one of satan's other names. If anyone doesn't understand what is going on in this world, it's your generation. All conditioned by the anti-christ as he schooled you into your beliefs, penned the books that you read, had the movies that you watched, TV watched, music listened to etc."***

      To which I say, perhaps Satan penned the Bible. I mean after all, wouldn't that be the best way for him to take control of humans since a massive percentage read the Bible (never to mind Islam and Judaism which are also Abrahamic Faiths). It is religion that is causing wars and strife. The Pope is certainly closer to Satan than Jesus. I know that if I were Satan and wanted to control weak minded humans, I would have written the major religious texts as a no brainer.

      Thus, isn't it entirely possible that Satan wrote the Bible? Keep in mind, there is NO WAY you can say that it isn't possible without being delusional. And don't go citing the Bible because if Satan wrote it, the quotes mean nothing.

      Moreover, Satan ends up looking pretty good in the Bible when we compare the number of people he and God killed. After all, according to the Bible itself, God killed FAR more people than the evil Satan. Most people are shocked to learn about how many people the devil actually killed.

      In the Bible, the number of SPECIFIC references to the number of people that God killed is in excess of 2.3 Million.

      None of that even accounts for abstract events such as "the flood," then that number is likely in excess of 30 Million people.

      And how many people has the devil killed? The answer is 10. Not 10 Million, not 10 Thousand, but rather 10. That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

      Even more ironic is that the 10 people that he killed were in a "bet" of sorts with God with regard to Job and his family, so God was directly implicated in those as well.

      So looking at the final specific tally that is most favorable to God, it is:

      God Killed: 2,300,000+
      Satan Killed: 10

      Don't shoot the messenger... I'm only reporting what the Bible says.

      Thus, since it IS "possible" that Satan wrote the Bible, perhaps you are following Satan's plan by believing in it.

      ****All bashing Jesus, telling folks that follow Him are brainwashed, when you are the ones brainwashed never to read His truth that he left all of us to read.***

      Actually organized religion has similar characteristics to that of a cult where the members do get brainwashed. Atheists don't have this.

      ***The Bible was written how many years ago? Same truth from the beginning until the end.***

      Actually, there were numerous civilizations BEFORE the oldest stories in the Bible were written. So it wasn't there from the beginning. If it was SO important, surely God would have put it in cavemen's dressers in the prehistoric Motel 6's.

      ***You are the end generation***

      We are the beginning of a new improved generation. Silicon Valley is the Mesopotamia of the modern world.

      ***When you see a rainbow, that is God telling you to remember the promises He made to all of us.***

      When I see a rainbow, I know that it is light being reflected in tiny drops of water. If God wanted to tell us this, then rainbows would show up in arid deserts, but they don't. This is a case of holding a fallacious belief.

      *** it's your generation. The last generation for end of days. When Jesus comes back and destroys death (aka satan) and all that follows him to the eternal flames.***

      Yes, it is our generation. The generation where we have enjoyed the highest standard of living in the history of the world. We live longer. We can communicate better. We have indoor plumbing. We have safer vehicles. Etc, etc, etc. Yep, our generation sucks. As for the rapture, people have been saying that for CENTURIES and all of them have SURE they would live to see it happen. And "amazingly," they were all wrong... if you keep holding those beliefs, you'll just be another statistic to that list.

      Peace!

      March 1, 2011 at 5:31 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, what part of the sin of PRIDE don't you comprehend? The sin of PRIDE is what 1st blinded Lucifer and caused his fall, as well as the rest of you that reject His teachings.

      Allow me to list the sins that Jesus teaches a sinner to overcome:

      PRIDE
      GREED
      ENVY
      LUST
      GLUTTONY
      SLOTH
      WRATH

      Let's see. If a person overcomes their sinful natures by learning Jesus' spiritual teachings, then what do they replace sin with? Do you know Jesus' virtues that replace these sins?

      March 2, 2011 at 3:55 am |
  10. don211

    Crossan and his "Jesus Seminar" are laughable. They "determined" what Jesus said and didn't say by voting on it. That's not research! Research involves finding hard evidence to support a position, not voting on it. Voting only represents opinion, not fact.

    February 28, 2011 at 3:07 am |
    • Yeah

      don,

      "They "determined" what Jesus said and didn't say by voting on it."

      And how do you think the early church councils "determined" what to include in the final compilation of the Bible? Oh wait, they were guided by a holy ghost... who's to say that this guy isn't? (Well, actually, me for one, but then I don't think *any* of them were, but that's beside the point).

      February 28, 2011 at 3:15 am |
    • The Truth

      @Yeah "And how do you think the early church councils "determined" what to include in the final compilation of the Bible?"

      LOL... touché!

      With regard to some of the "other" Gospels that were left out of the Bible... At the time, various Christian sects believed all of these "left out" Gospels to be 100% true. The irony is that if the powers that be had selected the Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, James and Peter as the Canonical Gospels, then 95%+ of Christians today would consider the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to be heretical. It goes to show the absurdity involved.

      For people to just read the texts of the Bible and not the other texts of the time that were left out is a prime example of letting others (the uneducated men who compiled the Bible 2K years ago) think for them.

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 3:23 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, my response to your questions (again). Do you think in the future you can start another listing and just ask a few questions at a time. I have to log off now, don't know when I'll be back on line.

      ***@HeavenSent "David Johnson, death is one of satan's other names. If anyone doesn't understand what is going on in this world, it's your generation. All conditioned by the anti-christ as he schooled you into your beliefs, penned the books that you read, had the movies that you watched, TV watched, music listened to etc."***

      To which I say, perhaps Satan penned the Bible. I mean after all, wouldn't that be the best way for him to take control of humans since a massive percentage read the Bible (never to mind Islam and Judaism which are also Abrahamic Faiths).

      ANSWER: Judaisim is the name used today. Not so, back to the beginning and who incorporated what and who’s behind the scenes.

      It is religion that is causing wars and strife. The Pope is certainly closer to Satan than Jesus. I know that if I were Satan and wanted to control weak minded humans, I would have written the major religious texts as a no brainer.

      Thus, isn't it entirely possible that Satan wrote the Bible? Keep in mind, there is NO WAY you can say that it isn't possible without being delusional. And don't go citing the Bible because if Satan wrote it, the quotes mean nothing.

      ANSWER: Only your ego believes you to be right. Learn how to shelf your ego, freeing you to go humble and read His truth for what it is THE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE AND WHY WE ARE HERE AND THE HEREAFTER. After all truth, those professors knew how to choose you to carry on their destruction of the Bible. Stroking of man’s/woman’s ego to do their bidding, then cut you loose because you haven’t the foggiest clue to what Nation isn’t written in our history books, who those people are and what they do to deceive folks like you that have no clue or no need to go humble. This too is written in that book you detest thousands of years ago. Coincidence?

      Moreover, Satan ends up looking pretty good in the Bible when we compare the number of people he and God killed. After all, according to the Bible itself, God killed FAR more people than the evil Satan. Most people are shocked to learn about how many people the devil actually killed.

      ANSWER: Only for eyes that can not see His truth.

      In the Bible, the number of SPECIFIC references to the number of people that God killed is in excess of 2.3 Million.

      ANSWER: God is I AM. Therefore, what do you not comprehend?

      None of that even accounts for abstract events such as "the flood," then that number is likely in excess of 30 Million people.

      ANSWER: If you are referring to the flood in Noah’s time. It wasn’t global. It only flooded in his part of the world. This flood was not the end of the world. You need to read about the foundation of the world.

      Matthew 24:7, Mlk 13:8, Luke 21:9-11, Amos 8:11 for end times, which is now, your generation.

      And how many people has the devil killed? The answer is 10. Not 10 Million, not 10 Thousand, but rather 10. That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

      ANSWER: Satan has been deceiving those that lived on earth since the beginning of this earth age (2nd) and took 1/3 of the angels with him which caused the destruction of the 1st earth age. So much for how much you learned reading the Bible and how his evil spirit has destroyed millions upon millions who have since died, and will take millions more before they die. Hence why Jesus told us the path to hell is wide, but the gate to him is narrow and many more take the wide path to destruction. I hope for your sake you don’t believe that nonsense the liars tell you that there is a secret pass for all of you to go around Jesus’ truth. That’s the same thing as seniors in HS sell elevator passes to freshmans ... to find out, there is only 2 floors to their school (LOL).

      Even more ironic is that the 10 people that he killed were in a "bet" of sorts with God with regard to Job and his family, so God was directly implicated in those as well.

      ANSWER: God knew Job to be a loving, faithful believer and knew Job would never rebel against Him no matter how much satan bet God. You constantly read scriptures backward as well as deny His truth. He told us those that don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear can’t read His truth. I suggest you pray to Jesus and ask for His forgiveness and if he’d please, be polite, ask Him if he’d allow you to go humble so you can read His truth.

      So looking at the final specific tally that is most favorable to God, it is:

      God Killed: 2,300,000+
      Satan Killed: 10

      Don't shoot the messenger... I'm only reporting what the Bible says.

      ANSWER: Again, from a man who’s eyes can’t see the Truth. No thank you. I have eyes to see His truth and ears to hear as well.

      Thus, since it IS "possible" that Satan wrote the Bible, perhaps you are following Satan's plan by believing in it.

      ANSWER: You keep hoping he did. But, you know you are wrong. God does work in mysterious ways and satan’s a wimp that wants others that are shaky in their faith to follow him along with those that have no faith.

      ****All bashing Jesus, telling folks that follow Him are brainwashed, when you are the ones brainwashed never to read His truth that he left all of us to read.***

      Actually organized religion has similar characteristics to that of a cult where the members do get brainwashed. Atheists don't have this.

      ANSWER: Even though you don’t want me to mention this, Jesus told us that they were ALL vipers. That is why I just read the Bible.

      ***The Bible was written how many years ago? Same truth from the beginning until the end.***

      Actually, there were numerous civilizations BEFORE the oldest stories in the Bible were written. So it wasn't there from the beginning. If it was SO important, surely God would have put it in cavemen's dressers in the prehistoric Motel 6's.

      ANSWER: He took care of those folks, as is written.

      ***You are the end generation***

      We are the beginning of a new improved generation. Silicon Valley is the Mesopotamia of the modern world.

      ANSWER: So you worship The Valley boys?

      ***When you see a rainbow, that is God telling you to remember the promises He made to all of us.***

      When I see a rainbow, I know that it is light being reflected in tiny drops of water. If God wanted to tell us this, then rainbows would show up in arid deserts, but they don't. This is a case of holding a fallacious belief.

      ANSWER: So you worship ....? Can’t say the word or the mod squadders will be after my post. And you don’t believe in why rainbows were made by God. How sad. Maybe that’s why God allowed Star Trek and Star Wars to be produced ... to give you folks an imagination and not be so serious in your mission to bash every thing.

      *** it's your generation. The last generation for end of days. When Jesus comes back and destroys death (aka satan) and all that follows him to the eternal flames.***

      Yes, it is our generation. The generation where we have enjoyed the highest standard of living in the history of the world. We live longer.

      ANSWER: You won’t be able to tell that to the next person’s wake you attend for dropping dead of a heart attack. Besides, not according to the ages in the Bible, we don’t.

      We can communicate better.

      ANSWER: The www.

      We have indoor plumbing.

      ANSWER: Thank God you appreciate this.

      We have safer vehicles. Etc, etc, etc. Yep, our generation sucks. As for the rapture, people have been saying that for CENTURIES and all of them have SURE they would live to see it happen. And "amazingly," they were all wrong... if you keep holding those beliefs, you'll just be another statistic to that list.

      ANSWER: By the way, there is no such thing as the rapture. No one is flying up to meet God.

      "Kiy zeh elohim"

      March 1, 2011 at 10:59 am |
  11. JW

    Crossan can't be saved. "If you confess with your mouth Jesus, and believe in you heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Faith in Christ in what saves you, and Crossan is denying God's testimony about His Son in the Bible. He has no faith in God or His word. He is promoting heresy, and don't believe anything Crossan says!!

    February 28, 2011 at 3:04 am |
    • The Truth

      @JW "Crossan can't be saved."

      Mighty big of you to be able to speak on behalf of God. I'm sure God appreciates that. He must make you privy to everything he thinks about.

      *** "and don't believe anything Crossan says!!"***

      Classic, you just did EXACTLY what I talked about in the first line of my first post. Congrats.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:09 am |
    • HeavenSent

      JW, those that comprehend the spiritual teachings of Jesus aren't buying into carnal man's thinking.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      EGO always Erases God Out.

      February 28, 2011 at 6:56 am |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "EGO always Erases God Out."
      Or convinces people that only they have the 'correct' view of God, right?

      February 28, 2011 at 8:11 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, it's obvious from your writings you know nothing about what Jesus' teaches. As far as my having to muster up my ego to communicate with you to tell you what we've been taught all our lives via His teachings, yes, it's a must to switch over to carnal thinking in order for me (and other Christians) to communicate with non-believers on this venue. Other than that, I'd (and I'm sure other Christians would agree) prefer to go back to peace and quiet in my spiritually taught mindset. However, we do come to His defense when folks like you don't understand that His teachings have down miracles in more people's lives throughout history and today than you can ever fathom.

      Amen.

      March 2, 2011 at 6:36 am |
  12. HeavenSent

    The truth, if # 5 is what you want me to discuss, then why don't you come right out and ask me?

    February 28, 2011 at 2:32 am |
    • The Truth

      @HeavenSent:

      What I am asking isn't difficult.

      Step 1: Watch the video that explains the 8 steps to get into Heaven (according to the Bible complete with Biblical citations):

      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video1.htm

      Step 2: State which of those steps you have accomplished and which steps you haven't and why not.

      Cheers.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:03 am |
    • The Truth

      Also, please note that you don't have to agree with the presenter's view regarding if Heaven exists or not, you just have to comment on the 8 steps that the Bible states are required to get into Heaven (because those steps are written in the Bible regardless of one's perspective). I could list them out, but it will be easier for everyone to understand using the Powerpoint in the video. Thus, I am sending you there for simplicity sake.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, those folks who put that video together, haven't a clue to what Jesus teaches. Again, that's what carnal minds can do.

      Just off the top of my head and knowing what Jesus teaches us. He told us not to pay attention to the Pharisees and those hiding behind the Pharisees because they are all vipers. By selling everything you own, means don't focus on what's in the carnal world (your earthly possessions) as being more important than your focus on His spiritual truth. He told us we are just visiting this world, not to get too wrapped up in man's teachings and beliefs. Christians and non-believers don't have to sell their carnal possessions just don't believe they make us who we are, He's teaching us that carnal possessions have absolutely nothing to do with His spiritual truth and who our spirits (intellect of the soul) are. He tells us to question ourselves to what is more important to you. Earthly possessions to make you whole, or His spiritual teachings. Carnal vs spiritual. Same thing when he teaches to hate your mother and father and everyone that comes into your life. He's teaching us to Love His spiritual truth first (Him) meaning to read His wisdom, comprehend it, then abide in His truth. Then,after you comprehend his spiritual truth ... you are able to love every one that is or comes into your life. Again, you and those that put this video together are thinking on the carnal level and haven't reached His spiritual level of thinking. Hate and Love means something completely different in the carnal world versus the spiritual world.

      As far as the rest of what was in that video. It's late. I'll have to keep replaying it to write down everything ... then tell you the spiritual truth to what carnal folks are asking. Besides, do you know how God writes His name? When you find this truth, then you'll realize His existence.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:03 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: Truth, those folks who put that video together, haven't a clue to what Jesus teaches.***

      LOL... they pulled the quotes DIRECTLY out of the Bible and cited them.

      ***By selling everything you own, means don't focus on what's in the carnal world (your earthly possessions) as being more important than your focus on His spiritual truth.... etc, etc, etc***

      This is a PERFECT example of you "justifying" to yourself what Jesus said. Here is what Jesus really said:

      - From Mark 10: “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."....Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!” “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

      Where is the ambiguity there? He SPECIFICALLY says, sell EVERYTHING. His own disciple speaks up and says that they left EVERYTHING. If you leave EVERYTHING behind now, Jesus PROMISES that you will receive a hundred times that in Heaven. So why are you directly ignoring the words of Jesus and twisting them around so that you can pretend he didn't say it so you can keep your worldly possessions? The answer is obvious.

      - From Luke 18: "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”....Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!” “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

      So Luke says for all intents and purposes the exact same thing. So here's the reality of what's going on here:

      1) You are directly ignoring the words of Jesus.

      2) No matter how you slice it nor how many times you trick yourself into believing otherwise, Jesus did not say, "don't focus on what's in the carnal world (your earthly possessions) as being more important than your focus on My spiritual truth" because he specifically stated without ambiguity, "SELL EVERYTHING YOU OWN."

      3) Not only did Jesus think this was important enough to say once, but it is recounted TWICE in the Bible.

      4) You clearly don't want to sell everything you own (despite KNOWING that Jesus said you'd get 100 times that amount in Heaven if you did so).

      5) Obviously, Jesus' own words and having a great afterlife in Heaven aren't as important to you as your current material items.

      Now, I don't blame you because not wanting to sell your things because some 2K year old book says so is NORMAL. It is reality. It is logical. You twisting Jesus' words into believing something that you are just making up to make yourself feel better is DELUSIONAL and not normal. Hopefully you can see the difference, but unfortunately it will likely go in one ear and out the other for all the reasons I already mentioned.

      ****He told us we are just visiting this world, not to get too wrapped up in man's teachings and beliefs.***

      If we're just visiting, then you should listen to Jesus and sell everything you own because you'll have 100 times that in eternity in Heaven according to Jesus.

      ***As far as the rest of what was in that video. It's late. I'll have to keep replaying it to write down everything"***

      I'll save you the trouble in doing so as it will just waste your time (and mine). I know you think I'm ripping on you, but I'm actually trying to help and you just don't realize it. Go back and realize that this is all illogical and it is not healthy to hold illogical beliefs.

      There was someone on here a few days ago who gave a link to his new blog who is a Christian and is LITERALLY contemplating selling everything he owns because of those quotes. This is not a joke, but a real life couple. If Heaven exists and the Bible is true, then I guess they'll be like Oprah in Heaven.

      ***Besides, do you know how God writes His name?***

      He has a personal secretary that does it for him.
      🙂

      ***When you find this truth, then you'll realize His existence.***

      Once again, I am not ruling out the possibility of a higher power... just ruling out that God would be so daft as to write the Bible.

      Finally, while you are clearly twisting things to fit your belief schema, I do give you kudos for actually stepping out of your shell and watching the video. I'm sure that was a not so easy thing for you do. So sincerely a good job by having the courage to do so.

      Have a good nite.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: Truth, those folks who put that video together, haven't a clue to what Jesus teaches.***

      LOL... they pulled the quotes DIRECTLY out of the Bible and cited them.

      ***By selling everything you own, means don't focus on what's in the carnal world (your earthly possessions) as being more important than your focus on His spiritual truth.... etc, etc, etc***

      This is a PERFECT example of you "justifying" to yourself what Jesus said. Here is what Jesus really said:

      – From Mark 10: “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."....Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!” “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

      Where is the ambiguity there? He SPECIFICALLY says, sell EVERYTHING. His own disciple speaks up and says that they left EVERYTHING. If you leave EVERYTHING behind now, Jesus PROMISES that you will receive a hundred times that in Heaven. So why are you directly ignoring the words of Jesus and twisting them around so that you can pretend he didn't say it so you can keep your worldly possessions? The answer is obvious.

      Answer: I’m not ignoring His spiritual truth. You are viewing His teachings on a carnal level and haven’t learned to think spiritually the way He teaches. He’s telling us we were born into this world without any thing and we will leave this world without any thing. Therefore, don’t focus on material things in this world. Material things do not make up our spirits (the intellect of our soul). Pay attention to His spiritual teachings as your priority and don't get blinded by all the man made things and beliefs in this world that will sway you away from His truth.

      – From Luke 18: "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”....Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!” “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

      So Luke says for all intents and purposes the exact same thing. So here's the reality of what's going on here:

      1) You are directly ignoring the words of Jesus.

      2) No matter how you slice it nor how many times you trick yourself into believing otherwise, Jesus did not say, "don't focus on what's in the carnal world (your earthly possessions) as being more important than your focus on My spiritual truth" because he specifically stated without ambiguity, "SELL EVERYTHING YOU OWN."

      3) Not only did Jesus think this was important enough to say once, but it is recounted TWICE in the Bible.

      4) You clearly don't want to sell everything you own (despite KNOWING that Jesus said you'd get 100 times that amount in Heaven if you did so).

      5) Obviously, Jesus' own words and having a great afterlife in Heaven aren't as important to you as your current material items.

      Now, I don't blame you because not wanting to sell your things because some 2K year old book says so is NORMAL. It is reality. It is logical. You twisting Jesus' words into believing something that you are just making up to make yourself feel better is DELUSIONAL and not normal. Hopefully you can see the difference, but unfortunately it will likely go in one ear and out the other for all the reasons I already mentioned.

      Answer: I am not ignoring His spiritual truth. You can't see what is written with a carnal mindset. You see words on the page, not His spiritual message. He's reminding us to what is important (His truth or the ways of man). What Christians think, believe, actions are is what matters via learning, comprehending and abiding in His truth. That is what sewing our linens while on earth by doing His righteous teachings ... and not walking butt naked into paradise by refusing to learn and of course, not do what He asked.

      ****He told us we are just visiting this world, not to get too wrapped up in man's teachings and beliefs.***

      If we're just visiting, then you should listen to Jesus and sell everything you own because you'll have 100 times that in eternity in Heaven according to Jesus.

      Answer: I never got to sell everything I had. Others took it from me. Besides, I already told you what He’s teaching us, but you can’t hear because you don’t have ears to hear and comprehend His spiritual truth. You only see the written words from a carnal perspective. You’re arguing spiritual truth with carnal beliefs that you are comfortable with. What else is new?

      ***As far as the rest of what was in that video. It's late. I'll have to keep replaying it to write down everything"***

      Answer: When Jesus told us to be as little children He’s telling us to shelf our egos. Children are pure before they learn the ways of the world and build up their egos. Shelving one’s ego is so that it won’t butt heads and rebuff Jesus teaches. Hence, why He told us to be humble. Egos always ERASE GOD OUT.

      Answer: Born again, or born from above means to be born of women. Only humans that are born from their mothers wombs will be able to get into paradise. That’s if they learn His truth (the Bible), comprehend His truth and abide in His truth. Jesus was referring to the fallen angels that followed Lucifer and refuse to come down to earth by being born of women. God created these angels in the first earth age that have fallen from His grace and came down to earth. These fallen angels refuse to be born of women will not be allowed into Heaven.

      Answer: Jesus already told us what he thinks about the Pharisees and others being vipers. Christians that read His truth in the bible comprehend this ... therefore, so much for wanting to be anything like the vipers.

      Answer: As for eating His body and drinking His blood. Christians know this means to follow Jesus and His spiritual teachings by reading the Bible, comprehending it, and abiding in His truth. That’s the difference between having eyes to see and ears to hear. Same with water and spirit. Jesus is the water of Life. He left His spirit down on earth for us to be comforted and at peace ... along with knowing His other teachings.

      Answer: God did give us His only son to come in human form and walk among us. As a Christian, I believe this to be true.

      Answer: I believe that heaven exists wherever Jesus is.

      Amen.

      February 28, 2011 at 6:01 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@Heaven Sent... "Answer: I’m not ignoring His spiritual truth. You are viewing His teachings on a carnal level and haven’t learned to think spiritually the way He teaches. He’s telling us we were born into this world without any thing and we will leave this world without any thing. Therefore, don’t focus on material things in this world. Material things do not make up our spirits (the intellect of our soul). Pay attention to His spiritual teachings as your priority and don't get blinded by all the man made things and beliefs in this world that will sway you away from His truth."***

      Do you honestly not see what you are doing here? Since it is often difficult to see things when you are too close to a situation, allow me to illustrate by doing exactly what you just did with something else. My scenario below in brackets:

      >>When we are talking about the 10 Commandments and it says, "Thou shall not steal" God isn't talking about stealing in the sense that we would think of it as. What he is in fact saying is a direct analogy to baseball because he knew in the future we'd love baseball. When a runner steals a base, he has the risk of being thrown out or getting injured. This is God's way of saying to be conservative in life and stop to smell the roses along the way because if you run fast and steal like a baseball player, you are living your life too fast. The reason that you don't see it that way is because "you are viewing His teachings on a carnal level and haven’t learned to think spiritually the way He teaches. He’s telling us we were born into this world without any thing and we will leave this world without any thing" so we should make sure to enjoy our life while we can. Therefore, don’t focus on moving too fast in this world. Stealing bases does not make up our spirits (the intellect of our soul). So what that God unambiguously states THOU SHALL NOT STEAL? If you really understood him spiritually because you have the love of Jesus in your heart, then you'd understand. But until then, you're just dry bones. <<

      Do you see how that works? YOU CAN MAKE THE BIBLE SAY ANYTHING!!! I know that you already must realize this because you are a master of it.

      And for the record, I went out of my way to make it sound absurd. I could have just as easily made it more realistic and spun it a different way to mean something completely different than simply "don't take things that don't belong to you."

      I have to admit though, I had a big light bulb go off in my head tonight as a result of our conversation. I try to learn from everyone I talk to if at all possible. And tonight I learned that the Bible is really just a College Blue Book where every 4th page is filled out with pre-printed text. Those 4th pages are items that almost no one can get away from... these would be staple items like the 10 Commandments, Jesus Getting Resurrected, Moses in the Desert, etc. And your job is to fill in all of the blank pages with whatever you want to make up. The only catch is that your story needs to semi-reasonably "fit" in line with the pre-printed text on every 4th page.

      That is exactly what everyone does. That is why there isn't even a standardized Bible.... it is so people can find different language in a different version and make what they want to write on their blank pages fit better with every 4th page of pre-written text.

      It's really just a giant note from Mommy to excuse your absence at school except this is one giant note that people can use to justify their entire lives with, despite the fact that they are writing the majority of the story themselves. They then "permanently trick" themselves over time into thinking it is God's word and not theirs when in reality it is only every 4th page that is God's word.

      And when you go to Church, do you know what your priest/minister does? They try to help you "cheat" by them standing at the pulpit trying to tell you how to fill out the blank pages in your Blue Book Bible. And people listen to what these preachers have to say because everyone wants to be part of the group and thus if everyone in the church is filling out the blank pages one way (the way the minister/priest instructs them to), then you feel compelled to fill them out the same way as they did so you too can become part of the group. That is what makes the stories of so many people so similar is that every 4th page is God's word, the two pages before that are what your Church says to write in those spaces and the first page is you getting to write in whatever you want. Thus, the majority of it remains similar to others.

      ***Answer: I never got to sell everything I had. Others took it from me.***

      You sound like someone who got royally screwed over by someone or some people. I'm very sorry to hear that. If you'd like to share your story, I'd be happy to listen. It could be cathartic to talk about. If you don't want, no pressure to do so.

      ***Besides, I already told you what He’s teaching us, but you can’t hear because you don’t have ears to hear and comprehend His spiritual truth. You only see the written words from a carnal perspective. You’re arguing spiritual truth with carnal beliefs that you are comfortable with. What else is new?***

      With regard to Thou Shall Not Steal, I say to you: Besides, I already told you what He’s teaching us, but you can’t hear because you don’t have ears to hear and comprehend His spiritual truth. You only see the written words from a carnal perspective. You’re arguing spiritual truth with carnal beliefs that you are comfortable with. What else is new?

      Do you see how that works? I didn't even have to change ONE SINGLE WORD above and it makes perfect sense with the "justification" I made earlier about the Stealing Commandment.

      ***Answer: When Jesus told us to be as little children...

      Answer: Born again, or born from above means to be born of women...

      Answer: Jesus already told us what he thinks about the Pharisees...

      Answer: As for eating His body and drinking His blood....

      Answer: God did give us His only son to come in human...

      Answer: I believe that heaven exists wherever Jesus is.***

      All of those were just different versions of what we just did above. Just like you spun the "Selling Everything You Own" and I countered by spinning the "Stealing Commandment," you are spinning again and I could counter them with a spin just as easily using "HeavenSentSpeak" so to speak (pun possibly intended).

      Gotta get going...

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 8:19 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, read my ANSWERS to your last post and notice this post is getting very looooonggggggggg.

      ***@Heaven Sent... "Answer: I’m not ignoring His spiritual truth. You are viewing His teachings on a carnal level and haven’t learned to think spiritually the way He teaches. He’s telling us we were born into this world without any thing and we will leave this world without any thing. Therefore, don’t focus on material things in this world. Material things do not make up our spirits (the intellect of our soul). Pay attention to His spiritual teachings as your priority and don't get blinded by all the man made things and beliefs in this world that will sway you away from His truth."***

      Do you honestly not see what you are doing here? Since it is often difficult to see things when you are too close to a situation, allow me to illustrate by doing exactly what you just did with something else. My scenario below in brackets:

      >>When we are talking about the 10 Commandments and it says, "Thou shall not steal" God isn't talking about stealing in the sense that we would think of it as. What he is in fact saying is a direct analogy to baseball because he knew in the future we'd love baseball. When a runner steals a base, he has the risk of being thrown out or getting injured. This is God's way of saying to be conservative in life and stop to smell the roses along the way because if you run fast and steal like a baseball player, you are living your life too fast. The reason that you don't see it that way is because "you are viewing His teachings on a carnal level and haven’t learned to think spiritually the way He teaches. He’s telling us we were born into this world without any thing and we will leave this world without any thing" so we should make sure to enjoy our life while we can. Therefore, don’t focus on moving too fast in this world. Stealing bases does not make up our spirits (the intellect of our soul). So what that God unambiguously states THOU SHALL NOT STEAL? If you really understood him spiritually because you have the love of Jesus in your heart, then you'd understand. But until then, you're just dry bones. <<

      Do you see how that works? YOU CAN MAKE THE BIBLE SAY ANYTHING!!! I know that you already must realize this because you are a master of it.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Answer: Yes, anyone can twist and contort His scriptures for what they believe through life will benefit them. Christians call that the easy way out, or evil. Christians learn Jesus Truth how to be the best that He wants us to be. We discern who we are dealing with. Does the person take responsibility for their thoughts, beliefs, actions versus does the person refuse to take responsibility for their thoughts, beliefs, actions?

      I take responsibility for what I do in my life. And you?

      Jesus’ gave Moses the commandments as is written in Exodus 20:1-26.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      And for the record, I went out of my way to make it sound absurd. I could have just as easily made it more realistic and spun it a different way to mean something completely different than simply "don't take things that don't belong to you."

      I have to admit though, I had a big light bulb go off in my head tonight as a result of our conversation. I try to learn from everyone I talk to if at all possible. And tonight I learned that the Bible is really just a College Blue Book where every 4th page is filled out with pre-printed text. Those 4th pages are items that almost no one can get away from... these would be staple items like the 10 Commandments, Jesus Getting Resurrected, Moses in the Desert, etc. And your job is to fill in all of the blank pages with whatever you want to make up. The only catch is that your story needs to semi-reasonably "fit" in line with the pre-printed text on every 4th page.

      That is exactly what everyone does. That is why there isn't even a standardized Bible.... it is so people can find different language in a different version and make what they want to write on their blank pages fit better with every 4th page of pre-written text.

      It's really just a giant note from Mommy to excuse your absence at school except this is one giant note that people can use to justify their entire lives with, despite the fact that they are writing the majority of the story themselves. They then "permanently trick" themselves over time into thinking it is God's word and not theirs when in reality it is only every 4th page that is God's word.

      And when you go to Church, do you know what your priest/minister does? They try to help you "cheat" by them standing at the pulpit trying to tell you how to fill out the blank pages in your Blue Book Bible. And people listen to what these preachers have to say because everyone wants to be part of the group and thus if everyone in the church is filling out the blank pages one way (the way the minister/priest instructs them to), then you feel compelled to fill them out the same way as they did so you too can become part of the group. That is what makes the stories of so many people so similar is that every 4th page is God's word, the two pages before that are what your Church says to write in those spaces and the first page is you getting to write in whatever you want. Thus, the majority of it remains similar to others.

      ***Answer: I never got to sell everything I had. Others took it from me.***

      You sound like someone who got royally screwed over by someone or some people. I'm very sorry to hear that. If you'd like to share your story, I'd be happy to listen. It could be cathartic to talk about. If you don't want, no pressure to do so.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANSWER: Thank you, I already learned and comprehend why Jesus told us to forgive those that trespass against us, so they lead us not into temptation (Matthew 6:9-15) and that the word debts in the scriptures means sin(s).
      .
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ***Besides, I already told you what He’s teaching us, but you can’t hear because you don’t have ears to hear and comprehend His spiritual truth. You only see the written words from a carnal perspective. You’re arguing spiritual truth with carnal beliefs that you are comfortable with. What else is new?***

      With regard to Thou Shall Not Steal, I say to you: Besides, I already told you what He’s teaching us, but you can’t hear because you don’t have ears to hear and comprehend His spiritual truth. You only see the written words from a carnal perspective. You’re arguing spiritual truth with carnal beliefs that you are comfortable with. What else is new?
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANSWER: 10 commandments (Exodus, Chapter 20). Abide in His truth and you live, spiritually come alive while down on earth and in the hereafter. Jesus teaches us how to take responsibility for our thoughts, beliefs and actions which builds on the foundation (solid) of who we are. We humbly gain gratification for completing the task at hand. We then add another righteous (Jesus’ truth) tool of knowledge to our tool belt of life. We gain the knowledge of the lesson God provided. Righteous results to a win/win situation. We win as well as all others involved. Your mind is clear, precise, useful knowledge that benefits, you as well as all others.

      Disobey the commandment and your spirit dies while down on earth and in the hereafter. Satan lies when he teaches never to take responsibility for your thoughts, beliefs, actions which does not build to your foundation (quick sand) of who you are. You gained arrogant (evil) satisfaction for not completing the task at hand. You add an unrighteous (satan’s lies) tool to your tool belt of life. You gained lying and deceptive lessons satan provides. Unrighteous results to a win/loose situation. The person wins, as all others loose.. Your mind is cloudy, sharp, useless knowledge that benefits you and only you.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Do you see how that works? I didn't even have to change ONE SINGLE WORD above and it makes perfect sense with the "justification" I made earlier about the Stealing Commandment.

      All of those were just different versions of what we just did above. Just like you spun the "Selling Everything You Own" and I countered by spinning the "Stealing Commandment," you are spinning again and I could counter them with a spin just as easily using "HeavenSentSpeak" so to speak (pun possibly intended).
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANSWER: We already discussed righteous actions when taking responsibility for our thoughts, beliefs, actions in life versus unrighteous action when never taking responsibility for one’s thoughts beliefs, actions in life.

      Free will (aka your choice). Who would you want surrounded in your life? The righteous person or the unrighteous person?

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 12:26 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@Heaven Sent... "Answer: Yes, anyone can twist and contort His scriptures for what they believe through life will benefit them. Christians call that the easy way out, or evil. Christians learn Jesus Truth how to be the best that He wants us to be. We discern who we are dealing with. Does the person take responsibility for their thoughts, beliefs, actions versus does the person refuse to take responsibility for their thoughts, beliefs, actions?"

      I've actually had this debate on a large message board like this, told everyone that everything in StarWars was 100% real and challenged them to prove me wrong. I used "Bible Speak" to justify that everything in Star Wars was true. People tried for over a month to prove me incorrect, but they couldn't because Bible Speak allows anything to be justified.

      ***"I take responsibility for what I do in my life. And you?"***

      As do I.

      ***ANSWER: 10 commandments (Exodus, Chapter 20). Abide in His truth and you live, spiritually come alive while down on earth and in the hereafter. Jesus teaches us how to take responsibility for our thoughts, beliefs and actions which builds on the foundation (solid) of who we are. We humbly gain gratification for completing the task at hand. We then add another righteous (Jesus’ truth) tool of knowledge to our tool belt of life. We gain the knowledge of the lesson God provided. Righteous results to a win/win situation. We win as well as all others involved. Your mind is clear, precise, useful knowledge that benefits, you as well as all others. Disobey the commandment and your spirit dies while down on earth and in the hereafter. Satan lies when he teaches never to take responsibility for your thoughts, beliefs, actions which does not build to your foundation (quick sand) of who you are. You gained arrogant (evil) satisfaction for not completing the task at hand. You add an unrighteous (satan’s lies) tool to your tool belt of life. You gained lying and deceptive lessons satan provides. Unrighteous results to a win/loose situation. The person wins, as all others loose.. Your mind is cloudy, sharp, useless knowledge that benefits you and only you.***

      The point I was trying to make is that you can spin even the most straightforward lines into anything you want to. The Bible contradicts itself so many times and is so va-gue that it is a prime source for believers to create their own belief schemas independent of the Bible and then have the Bible be able to justify them.

      ***ANSWER: We already discussed righteous actions when taking responsibility for our thoughts, beliefs, actions in life versus unrighteous action when never taking responsibility for one’s thoughts beliefs, actions in life.***

      And that is what I try to do without having the need for an ancient book written 2K years ago by uneducated men to direct me in this quest. I once needed floa-ties in the po-ol when I was learning to swim as a child... today, I no longer need them and can dive off the deep end without hesitation.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, just because you learned ethical versus unethical teachings somewhere else, doesn't mean Jesus didn't teach His wisdom 1st.

      Therefore, if you learned it and abide in it, then why do you have a bug up your butt if others learn it too? Unless, your degree is in teaching His wisdom under another name? Either way, I'm all for Jesus' teachings against chaos ruling supreme.

      March 2, 2011 at 3:35 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, I have NEVER, and I repeat NEVER met a priest, rabbi, preacher of any denomination make excuses for people's bad behaviors. People who steal, lie or do any of the deadly sins do so either out of pre-meditated mindsets or in the heat of passion. There is a difference for what a person's mindset is at the time they are conducting the sin. Either way, they own their actions. Not the folks that preach Jesus' truth. Perhaps you just think they are making excuses or teaching excuses to people. Then, again, you own how you think as do the people who want to sin.

      March 2, 2011 at 6:25 am |
  13. Justina

    Hell is a lenient justice for blasphemous creatures like mankind.

    February 28, 2011 at 2:18 am |
    • NL

      Would you feel that way if it were Baal who was sending YOU there for not believing in him?

      February 28, 2011 at 11:23 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, Baal (aka satan) is the liar who is not to be worshiped or followed. He has already been predestined to the eternal flames. Anyone that loves to do evil and follow baal, will go to the eternal flames with him and his lies. Jesus is King of Kings, Lord of Lords and will have all evil under his foot stool before he commences judgment.

      Amen.

      February 28, 2011 at 8:51 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "Baal (aka satan) is the liar who is not to be worshiped or followed. He has already been predestined to the eternal flames."
      If Satan is predestined to go to hell did he have free will in rebelling from God? Satan isn't as powerful as God, so he isn't omniscient as well, right? So, what's to prevent him from changing his ways and asking for forgiveness?

      February 28, 2011 at 11:42 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, Lucifer (aka satan) was God's favorite angel. He made him the best of the best. Looks, intelligence, etc. Lucifer rebelled against God, causing the end of the first earth age ... because of the sin of Pride. Lucifer's pride made him believe to be bigger and better than God and got 1/3 of God's angels to follow him. God was angered (and hurt like we all would be), He destroyed the first earth age. After a while (about a week and a week in those days, the beginning, was about 11 or so days, shortened to 7 for which we utilize today, that too is written in the Bible) God created the world again (see Genesis) as it became void. To become void, there had to be something prior ... and that's what people miss when reading Genesis.

      Read Jesus' truth in Revelation 20:1-3 and 7-10 to see satan's destiny. Knowing his destiny which is written throughout the Bible, satan does not want to go to the eternal flames alone so he lies and deceives everyone on earth. The earth is satan's domain and Jesus told us to be as peaceful as doves because of all the evil lies we will encounter down on earth.

      Amen.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 7:19 am |
  14. The Truth

    ***honestanon "I believe it would be good for the country if more people in business, academic and professional worlds were known to be marijuana users." Le-st-er Gri-nsp-oon. Bwhahahah!"

    Dr. Grinspo-on actually set out to prove the harmful of effects of marijuana and surprisingly discovered the opposite. Ironically, years later, his son died from cancer and he used marijuana (as a result of his research) to ease his pain and to help him eat. His list of accolades and people he's closely worked with are impressive to say the least.... we're talking Nobel Prize levels. I've personally spoken with him on numerous occasions and he's a brilliant man.

    With regard to his quote, it WOULD be good if those people were known to be marijuana users because they already exist. I work with C-Level Executives and the aggregate number of them that use marijuana is much higher than people would guess. Once our country accepts this as fact, then it will be easier to legalize it which means more tax revenue, less violence, less crime, billions saved for taxpayers from the DEA and all that money could go toward education instead of fighting a war that we can never, ever win.

    Peace.

    February 28, 2011 at 1:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      And folks complain about the word "stoning". I find it amazing that those that smoke pot call themselves "stoners".

      February 28, 2011 at 2:00 am |
    • honestanon

      "... C-Level Executives and the aggregate number of them that use marijuana is much higher than people would guess."
      Actually, I think 'enhanced' thinking is a requisite for C-Level management. Seems it proven time and again... The board room had to be 'enhanced' at Fannie and Freddie, BearStearns, et.al. At least it's a preferable excuse over simple greed.

      I'm glad you have a modern folk hero in Dr. Grinspo-on. Sad for his son, certainly. But his philosophies on the acceptance of yet another mind-altering drug into routine society is questionable. Shades of Mad Men. "We'll discuss it over some lunch and toke." On campus it'll be "Heyyy, baby, everyone should get an A." What total self-justifying pablum.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:12 am |
    • Yeah

      Marijuana users, as a rule, just sit there like stones... they don't throw them.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:19 am |
    • The Truth

      honestanon: "I'm glad you have a modern folk hero in Dr. Grinspo-on. Sad for his son, certainly. But his philosophies on the acceptance of yet another mind-altering drug into routine society is questionable. Shades of Mad Men. "We'll discuss it over some lunch and toke." On campus it'll be "Heyyy, baby, everyone should get an A." What total self-justifying pablum.

      Alcohol is a mind altering drug and is perfectly legal. Heck, you can even get small doses of that in Church. Dr. Grinspo-on is championing its use as real medicine. People have no problem popping prescription pills that are far more dangerous than marijuana simply because of the stigma attached.

      Take this woman, Jacqueline Patterson. She has celebral palsy. Watch the one minute video below and know that literally one minute after she smokes marijuana, she goes to what we would consider "normal." People's naivety surrounding marijuana are leaving people such as Jacqueline to suffer. To deny these people access to this medicine is beyond cruel.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RpL9U9xW8U

      (As an aside, that entire docu-mentary is outstanding.)

      On a different note, let's look at some people who have used drugs, many FAR worse than marijuana.

      - We can start off with Sigmund Freud who used cocaine of which some experts believe led him to discover his psychoanalytical theories. After all, Freud only created the foundations that a massive branch of medicine that iswidely used today. You can even read Freud's writings "Uber Coca."

      - Wilhelm Fliess who knew Freud and came up with many of his own brilliant concepts advocated the use of cocaine as well.

      - Ernst von Fleischl-Marxow used both morphine and cocaine and came up with new concepts concerning electrical activity in the brain.

      - Ralph Abraham is currently a professor at UC Santa Cruz and has taught at such places as Berkeley and Princeton. He's become a leader in new fields in mathematics particularly dynamical systems theories or chaos math. In an interview with GQ magazine, he explained how psychedelic insights had influenced mathematical theories. "In the 1960s a lot of people on the frontiers of math experimented with psychedelic substances. I know this because I was a purveyor of psychedelics to the mathematical community. To be creative in mathematics you have to start from a point of total oblivion. Basically, math is revealed in a totally unconscious process in which one is completely ignorant of the social climate. And mathematical advance has always been the motor behind the advancement of consciousness."

      - Timothy Leary was a huge proponent of LSD. One of the great stories about Leary is that he developed a standard personality test used by prison officials to classify prisoners according to their potential escape profile. Ironically, Leary himself was convicted many years later and prison officials unwittingly gave him the standard "Leary Test." Thus, he was able to give answers which showed him to be a low flight risk which got him placed into a minimum security facility of which he soon escaped from. lol Leary came up with a huge list of important scientific discoveries and taught at Harvard. The CIA also funded his research.

      - Richard Alpert (aka Ram Dass) either taught at or had research contracts with Harvard, Berkeley, Yale and Stanford amongst others made large contributions while experimenting with mushrooms and LSD.

      - Allen Ginsberg (won the National Book Award) promoted the use of LSD and marijuana while warning people of the dangers of tobacco.

      - Ken Kesey (wote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) used cocaine, mescaline (peyote), LSD and others.

      - Carl Sagan (Pulitzer Prize winner, NASA award winner, etc) was a regular marijuana user. He wrote a book together with Dr. Grinspo-on in which Sagan explains how marijuana helped inspire his works.

      - Stephen Jay Gould (President of the American Assn for the Advancement of Science and award the super prestigious Darwin-Wallace Medal only awarded every 50 years, Harvard Professor, etc) was a regular marijuana user.

      - Richard Feynman revolutionized modern physics. He's won the Nobel Prize, the Albert Einstein Award, etc, etc, etc. He only helped to create the atomic bomb and said that his experiences with LSD and marijuana were beneficial to his intelligence.

      - Andrew Weil (you've probably seen him on TV) has a national best selling book, basically established the field of integrative medicine and has been on the cover of Time Magazine. Weil studied under the afore-mentioned Dr. Leary at Harvard. He's claimed to have tried every drug from "Chocolate to Morphine" and even has a pyschadelic mushroom named after him.

      - Kary Mullis won the Nobel Prize in chemistry which essentially allows scientists to duplicate DNA. He was a marijuana user and his LSD experiences led him to say the following: "I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took." He went on to say that LSD was directly responsible for his coming up with the science that led to his Nobel Prize winning work. He also knew Albert Hoffman who is the father of LSD and just recently died at the age of 102.

      As you can see, some of the greatest minds used mind-altering substances. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson
      grew hemp. Some of the greatest musicians in our era (Brian Wilson, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, etc, etc, etc) were all big drug users. Sherlock Holmes, Stephen King, Robert Louis Stevenson, etc, etc, etc were all drug users. Etc, etc, etc.

      Why do you think that is? It is because drugs can EXPAND the mind in ways that it is unable to on its own. Of course too much of anything is a bad thing... hell, table salt can kill you if you take enough of it. Moderation is the key to the individual.

      Dr. Grinspo-on is a Harvard professor and doctor who has worked closely with numerous people on that list.

      There's a lot more to life than just living in a fishbowl.

      Cheers.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:53 am |
    • The Truth

      *** @Yeah Marijuana users, as a rule, just sit there like stones... they don't throw them.***

      🙂

      February 28, 2011 at 2:56 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, drugs have always expanded or exploded the human mind. What's your point? Reading Jesus' truth does that too, and it only cost is the person's time.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:24 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: The truth, drugs have always expanded or exploded the human mind. What's your point? Reading Jesus' truth does that too, and it only cost is the person's time.***

      So does reading Buddha's truth. So does reading an atheist's truth. So do reading Muhammad's truth. So does reading George Lucas' truth. And so on and so forth. Anything someone isn't familiar with can expand their mind.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:28 am |
    • honestanon

      @ The Truth
      Throw enough against the wall and some is bound to stick...

      Sure, Sagan may have used, or many of the others you list. Leary was a joke – to advocate anything he did under the influence was beneficial is blindly misstated opinion, i.e, he was fired from Harvard for not attending his classes, among your other 'misinterpretations.'

      But to suggest widespread benefit from social acceptability of a drug is just ignorant. Or, restated, you ain't Sagan, baby.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:48 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@ The Truth But to suggest widespread benefit from social acceptability of a drug is just ignorant.***

      First off, my list goes to show that drug use can have positive effects on some people.

      Secondly, there is widespread benefit from legalizing marijuana as I already laid out.

      1) We can tax it. That's money that can benefit everyone in the state.

      2) We remove some drug dealers off of the street as there is no longer a niche for them. Of course there will still be other drug dealers for different drugs, but the number of dealers will decrease.

      3) We can have more control over who gets the drugs. It is actually easier for a kid to get pot today than alcohol. Why? Because alcohol is LEGAL. Kids need fake ID's to get alcohol, not to get pot.

      4) We can control the strength of the marijuana and people buying it can be assured that it isn't laced with other more harmful drugs.

      5) People like Jacqueline above no longer need to put their own lives in danger by going to unsafe parts of town to find her marijuana.

      6) Countless medical ailments can be cured or better managed (e.g. people with cancer).

      7) People may ween themselves away from alcohol and cigarettes and choose pot instead which is far better for them.

      8- It gives Americans another freedom which is priceless.

      9) It frees up our court systems and prisons which saves taxpayers a ton of money.

      10) It saves taxpayers billions of dollars from the DEA needing to try and stop it.

      So in reality, what is truly ignorant is us spending billions of dollars and taking away personal freedoms for a war that we can NEVER, EVER win, while padding the pockets of drug dealers thanks to the prudes of the religious right which has resulted in the United States having more people in prison BOTH per capita and in aggregate of any nation on the planet.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 4:14 am |
    • honestanon

      @ The Truth
      So, given all the traditional arguments 'for', it begs the question, 'why not?'

      There's been years of research by the established medical community into cannabinoid compounds. Argue as you will, but the simple, aggravating reason for reefer restriction is....

      The perception of personal benefit doesn't outweigh the overall risk to society.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • The Truth

      @ honestanon "So, given all the traditional arguments 'for', it begs the question, 'why not?' There's been years of research by the established medical community into cannabinoid compounds. Argue as you will, but the simple, aggravating reason for reefer restriction is....The perception of personal benefit doesn't outweigh the overall risk to society."

      First off, there is NOTHING more important than our personal freedoms. We should fight to keep our freedoms at all cost... even ones that we ourselves may not like nor may ever choose to engage in. Brave men and women fought and died for our freedoms and we shouldn't just careless pass them aside simply because our government wants us to.

      As for your argument, it is absurd. The overall risk to society? Do you know how many people have died as a primary result of marijuana overdose? The answer is zero. Do you know how many people have died as a result of taking too much baby aspirin? More than zero, so I guess we should ban baby aspirin to curb the overall risk to society.

      In fact, in an FDA report from 1997-2005, the following items were true when talking about primary causes of deaths:

      Marijuana: 0
      Anti-Emetics: 196
      Anti-Spasmodics: 118
      Anti-Psychotics: 1,593
      Ritalin: 121
      Vioxx: 4,540
      Wellbutrin: 1,132
      Adderall: 54
      Viagra: 2,254

      I guess we should ban all of those drugs then, despite them helping MILLIONS of people.

      None of this even begins to talk about the hundreds of thousands of people that die from tobacco, nor the tens of thousands that die from car accidents, nor the tens of thousands that die from prescription drugs, nor the tens of thousands that die from alcohol, nor the tens of thousands that die from firearms, etc, etc, etc. I guess we should ban those items too.

      What part of we are spending billions of dollars on the pot war and yet you can still easily find pot anywhere can you not comprehend? We might just as well be taking that cash and throwing it into the fireplace. Here's what your stance is doing for our country:

      1) We are wasting billions of dollars on the pot war and pot is easily accessible virtually everywhere in the country.

      2) We are artificially raising the price of marijuana which means more incentive for drug dealers to sell.

      3) We are padding the pockets of drug dealers.

      4) We get zero tax dollars for the sale of it.

      5) No matter how much money we put toward stopping it, we will NEVER, EVER stop it.

      6) Look at how well prohibition worked out. We artificially created mobsters like Al Capone because of religious prudes. Brilliant!

      7) It is easier for kids to get pot now than alcohol because alcohol is legalized.

      8) We are spending a fortune throwing more and more pot users and dealers in jail and yet pot use is going UP.

      So as you can see, your way is REALLY benefitting society. Let's spend billions of dollars trying to fight the futile battle of pot when instead our nation's education system is crumbling and all of those wasted billions and new tax dollars could be spent educating future generations of American children. This argument on your part is so far beyond naive that it isn't even funny.

      I'd suggest you watch that full docu-mentary presented earlier with Jacqueline and educate yourself on the topic. You'll see how marijuana really helps people with an extreme wide variety of ailments. To not allow these people their medicine is cruel at the very least. But hey, let's keep throwing billions of dollars away for something that will never go away... that's one great strategy.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, pertaining to your post "The Truth
      ***@HeavenSent: The truth, drugs have always expanded or exploded the human mind. What's your point? Reading Jesus' truth does that too, and it only cost is the person's time.***

      So does reading Buddha's truth. So does reading an atheist's truth. So do reading Muhammad's truth. So does reading George Lucas' truth. And so on and so forth. Anything someone isn't familiar with can expand their mind.

      Peace.".

      The truth ... Which do you read and live by?

      February 28, 2011 at 8:46 pm |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: The truth, drugs have always expanded or exploded the human mind. What's your point? Reading Jesus' truth does that too, and it only cost is the person's time. So does reading Buddha's truth. So does reading an atheist's truth. So do reading Muhammad's truth. So does reading George Lucas' truth. And so on and so forth. Anything someone isn't familiar with can expand their mind. The truth ... Which do you read and live by?"***

      I've read almost all of the major religious texts of importance. You asked what I live by... If I explained it, it would be a novel the size of War and Peace. But the super quick logical gist:

      1) Why do humans create robots and robots don't create humans? The answer is because we as "creators" of robots are more intelligent than the robots themselves. Thus, I'd say it is pretty logical to assume that our creator is more intelligent than us.

      2) Since the Creator is more intelligent, I have ruled out the possibility of him/her/it writing the Bible because of all the contradictions and errors. That book was CLEARLY not written by someone of immense intelligence. In fact, IMHO, it is a massive insult to the Creator to say that he wrote such a primitive book.

      3) Humans encompass the planet and are from a variety of races/nationalities. It makes no sense whatsoever that God would create some people and never give all of them the same chance at an afterlife. Then before the Bible existed, there were other cultures such as the Egyptians... if it was SO important for God to have people follow the Bible, he would have provided them with it. Just like the Native Americans never heard about Jesus until 1500 years after Jesus walked on the Earth. Simple logic here dictates that either God hates Native Americans or it just wasn't important for God to let them have access to the Bible for all that time. Thus, these major religions claiming they are "the correct one" to believe in is naive at best.

      4) Just like no atheist can "prove" that God doesn't exist, no Christian can "prove" that they have the 100% correct interpretation of the Bible. Thus, you, the Pope, your minister, the lady living on food stamps, me, etc all have an EQUAL chance of interpreting it correctly. Therefore, there is no reason to let others dictate to me how to get to the afterlife because their guess is as good as mine.

      5) The Creator gave us the most powerful brains on the planet more than likely to use logic to think for ourselves, not to have others think for us.

      6) Virtually every single religion on the planet has a form of the Golden Rule that is for all intents and purposes identical to the gist behind the Golden Rule in the Bible. Thus, it makes FAR more sense to follow this simple rule than it does to follow other texts that are geographically laden.

      7) Knowing right from wrong is innate. No religion has a monopoly on this. So once again, following the Golden Rule makes sense.

      On top of all this, I've been to 6 different continents to see many of these various cultures up close and personal. Experiencing this first hand versus reading about it in some book is a big difference. On top of that, I have also been involved in a bad sports accident where I was literally clinically dead temporarily. So I'd say I have a little more insight than the average person on that particular topic.

      So with that logic out of the way, I believe that there could be a Creator or there could not be a Creator. It is really irrelevant to me because in EITHER case, I should be following the Golden Rule. Either to please the Creator or to simply do what's right for humankind and for the survival of our species.

      These texts like the Bible were written by uneducated men to try and explain the unknown in an effort to make sense of the unknown and to control the masses. The laws in the Bible certainly could have been beneficial back then to keep people in line. And if you ask whether or not that attempt to control the masses worked... the answer is that it was SO effective that people today STILL believe in it, despite it being contrary to basic logic 101.

      Moreover, taking individual lines from the Bible is an effort in futile naivety. These words, phrases and context have been translated umpteen times and context gets lost in translation. For instance, Baron Davis used to play with the Golden State Warriors in the NBA. Consider if an alien came down to earth and read one of our newspaper headlines that read, "Baron Davis On Fire.... Rest of Warriors Can't Shoot." They might think that a king (Baron) was engulfed in flames (on fire) and his army (Warriors) was inept (can't shoot). LOL Scholars can guess at much of that context, but will never, ever get it completely correct.

      One of my higher education degrees is in the field of Communication so you can consider me an expert of sorts on this issue. If you'd like to read more and find out how someone like Judas got shafted by context, feel free to read my thoughts on it here (there's a good chance that you'll find at least some or much of these interesting):

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/39/Interpretations

      If you'd like to learn about historical context between Mary Jesus' Mother and Mary Magdalene, feel free to read here:

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/44/Mary-vs-Mary-Magdalene

      If you want to see your religious odds in picking the correct religion, feel free to read here:

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/40/Why

      So in the end, I need to be the best "Me" that I can be. By not having a religious "label," it doesn't stop me from donating time to charities, financially helping out the homeless, etc. If I didn't have pieces of papers (diplomas) saying I graduated in such and such, it doesn't mean my education level changes whatsoever... they are merely pieces of paper. If I discard my driver's license, it doesn't change the fact that I still know how to drive. The same is true with religious labels.

      And when the day comes and if God asks me why I believed what I currently believe, I can answer him with a straight face and simply state: "You gave us a brain to think for ourselves, the Bible seemed way beneath your intelligence to have written it, you created people all over the Earth and not all of those have access to the Bible or other religious texts, but I tried to do my best to help out my fellow man (his children) and follow the Golden Rule which is a common thread in virtually ALL of the religions of your people."

      Now compare that to: "I am a Christian because I believe you are daft and wrote a book filled with errors that I knew was written by uneducated men and contradicted itself left and right. However, so many other people were doing it, I thought it must have been good. Instead of spending my free time helping your needy children, I spent hours in church feeling good about myself because that book told me to (even though it says the opposite)." Then when God asks me if I knew about all the errors in the Bible, I can't lie and say no and neither can the others on here that have been shown this.

      Thus, I feel pretty comfortable with my statement and would hope someone of immense intelligence (God) would respect original thought far more so than my being a helpless brainwashed sheep following the pack. After all, he gave us the ability to critically think for a reason. Moreover, I don't discriminate against others either. I don't care if you are white, black, Asian, straight, gay, trans-exual, married, single, divorced, male, female, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, Mormon, Hindu, tall, short, etc, etc, etc. If I were to follow the Bible and join most organized religions, I'd need to discriminate and I highly doubt God would like that as he created all of these people.

      So there you have it in a nutshell... do what is innately right and do unto others as I would like them to do unto me. Am I perfect? No way, but I try my best.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 4:31 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Well, then, the truth, pay close attention to re-reading 2 Timothy 3:12-4:4 and John 8:44.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 6:00 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: Well, then, the truth, pay close attention to re-reading 2 Timothy 3:12-4:4 and John 8:44."***

      You have missed the point I made regarding these quotes. They are all useless. The odds that these are 100% accurate in terms of the original meaning, intent and context are virtually zero. They have been translated over and over and over again. These two books came decades after Jesus died. For them to remember what was said verbatim is almost certainly zero. Heck, the Gospel writers can't even agree on Jesus' final words because they were written so long after Jesus' death. And those words are FAR more important than the lines you are referencing.

      Thus, you are listing out a bunch of lines that were more than likely mistranslated to some degree along the line and they more than likely lack true historical context of the time. It makes little logical sense.

      Once again, I explain it in much more depth here:

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/39/Interpretations

      Moreover, as I've said a thousand times now, for everything you post in terms of lines in the Bible, I can post the same number of derogatory lines. This is clearly an effort in futility.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 6:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      You said "Moreover, as I've said a thousand times now, for everything you post in terms of lines in the Bible, I can post the same number of derogatory lines. This is clearly an effort in futility."

      Truth versus Lies. That's what tugs at your soul.

      Truth in His wisdom sets you free. Lies from satan enslaves you to blindly accept him as you following him to the depth of the eternal flames. Poof, NO more. He and others that follow him are doomed for destruction.

      That's why Christians want you to hear us when we say, don't get blinded. Read His truth and live. Now, in this life and for eternity.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 6:31 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: "You said "Moreover, as I've said a thousand times now, for everything you post in terms of lines in the Bible, I can post the same number of derogatory lines. This is clearly an effort in futility." Truth versus Lies. That's what tugs at your soul.***

      What is a lie? I have a degree in this from one of the premier universities on the planet. Do you have a degree in this? If not, perhaps you'd want to listen to what I'm saying instead of so quickly discarding it.

      ****Truth in His wisdom sets you free. Lies from satan enslaves you to blindly accept him as you following him to the depth of the eternal flames. Poof, NO more. He and others that follow him are doomed for destruction.***

      And as I already suggested elsewhere, it is entirely possible that Satan could have written the Bible himself. Moreover, as pointed out again elsewhere, most Christians don't even believe Satan exists.

      ***That's why Christians want you to hear us when we say, don't get blinded. Read His truth and live. Now, in this life and for eternity.***

      So let me clarify again here: I have a degree in this field and I have ACTUALLY died. And when my accident happened, I was a full believer and guess what... no bright light, no dark light, no tunnel, no angels, no devils, no clouds, no Pearly Gates, etc. If it wasn't for the doctors, I would not be here talking now. And yes, like a dummy, I stayed religious for years after the fact. So perhaps you might take heed in what I am saying. Or of course, you can just ignore it.

      Peace.

      March 1, 2011 at 6:58 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, my answers to your questions ....

      ***@HeavenSent: "You said "Moreover, as I've said a thousand times now, for everything you post in terms of lines in the Bible, I can post the same number of derogatory lines. This is clearly an effort in futility." Truth versus Lies. That's what tugs at your soul.***

      What is a lie? I have a degree in this from one of the premier universities on the planet. Do you have a degree in this? If not, perhaps you'd want to listen to what I'm saying instead of so quickly discarding it.

      Answer: The sin of PRIDE is blinding you just as it did Lucifer. Ironic how the same sin gets those that follow satan (the lie)?

      ****Truth in His wisdom sets you free. Lies from satan enslaves you to blindly accept him as you following him to the depth of the eternal flames. Poof, NO more. He and others that follow him are doomed for destruction.***

      And as I already suggested elsewhere, it is entirely possible that Satan could have written the Bible himself. Moreover, as pointed out again elsewhere, most Christians don't even believe Satan exists.

      Answer: All Christians who read the Bible know satan exists. Everything in creation is about God (truth, as written to us to read from Jesus) and satan (lies to deceive and blind the masses ) and who will follow which one

      Satan did not write Jesus' truth (the Bible) but he does have his spirit influencing others that are blinded by him while down on earth. That too is written in the Bible.

      ***That's why Christians want you to hear us when we say, don't get blinded. Read His truth and live. Now, in this life and for eternity.***

      So let me clarify again here: I have a degree in this field and I have ACTUALLY died. And when my accident happened, I was a full believer and guess what... no bright light, no dark light, no tunnel, no angels, no devils, no clouds, no Pearly Gates, etc. If it wasn't for the doctors, I would not be here talking now. And yes, like a dummy, I stayed religious for years after the fact. So perhaps you might take heed in what I am saying. Or of course, you can just ignore it.

      Answer: A degree in what field? In following the lies of satan to destroy Jesus' truth? Oh, really. I'm praying for you even more now.

      And that slide is slippery as one gets cast into the eternal flames with satan ... then puff. Wiped out for ever more. For ever more? For ever more ... because their is no evil in Heaven. Heaven is where God resides. Read revelation.

      Besides, like one of His faithful followers said (and I can’t quote it because I didn’t copy and save) ... if Jesus and satan aren’t real, then all I did was spend my life being a righteous person and lost nothing when I die. However, if Jesus and satan are real and I didn’t believe in Jesus, then when I die and meet Him ... I’m in for the horror of my life. Well, something along this line. Which I thought was an excellent argument to post. I wished I saved it or remembered what article we were posting on.

      2 Timothy 3:12-4:4

      12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
      13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
      14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
      2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
      3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      Peace and I will continue to pray for your soul to stay in His light. Pay close attention to #s 3 and 4.

      March 1, 2011 at 8:20 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: Answer: The sin of PRIDE is blinding you just as it did Lucifer. Ironic how the same sin gets those that follow satan (the lie)?***

      The sin of pride? It is called REALITY. I have a degree in that which means I've studied it in depth.

      ***Answer: All Christians who read the Bible know satan exists. Everything in creation is about God (truth, as written to us to read from Jesus) and satan (lies to deceive and blind the masses ) and who will follow which one***

      That is DELUSIONAL. All Christians DO NOT believe in Satan. I already pointed you to a Christian site that shows this is NOT the case. You've already seen it and thus you KNOW this is NOT the case yet you STILL say otherwise. This is D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-!-!-! Here's the site again for everyone else:

      http://in.christiantoday.com/articles/most-us-christians-don-believe-satan-holy-spirit-exist/3704.htm

      This is yet another example of you blatantly disregarding reality for the umpteenth time.

      ***Satan did not write Jesus' truth (the Bible) but he does have his spirit influencing others that are blinded by him while down on earth. That too is written in the Bible.***

      Listen to you say that as if you KNOW. You DON'T KNOW because you weren't there. No one knows. And there you go quoting the Bible again when I ALREADY explained that if Satan wrote it, the quotes in this instance mean nothing. Yet that logic for you went out the window again like it has over and over and over again in favor of delusion.

      ***Answer: A degree in what field? In following the lies of satan to destroy Jesus' truth? Oh, really. I'm praying for you even more now. Blah, blah, blah...***

      I've already explained this and am no longer going to waste my time trying to help/converse with someone who clearly prefers delusion over reality. I've literally died and you haven't and yet you are telling me about what happens after you die. Fricken' hilarious. And then you go on rambling some more Biblical quotes when I already explained why they hold little weight. You do this because you can't have a logical discussion because you know your logic can't hold up. So instead you trick yourself into believing whatever you want despite it being illogical and out of touch with reality.

      I'll tell you what... don't take my word for it. Go open your phone book, randomly point to 5 psychiatrists names and print all of our conversations together and bring them into the psychiatrist. Let them read the threads and ask them if you are delusional or not. I can tell you right now what they will say because I've had training in this field as well and you meet the definition of it as defined by the DSM. And that is meant to be helpful advice, not trying to be mean. Holding delusional thoughts is unhealthy.

      In fact, if you REALLY believed in the Bible, why do you sit here and waste a good part of your day blogging when instead you SHOULD be out helping the poor and needy as Jesus commands? By leaving someone homeless, you are doing that to Jesus. By leaving someone hungry, you are doing that to Jesus (per the Bible). So it is obviously more important for you to hear yourself talk (Erase God Out) than following the book that will supposedly be your salvation. These actions on your behalf show your lack of reality once again. If you took all the time you've spent here, you could have literally helped tens of thousands of needy people at say a soup kitchen instead. And I know, you'll justify that somehow too by twisting it as you see fit. But deep down inside you know I am right. It is hypocrisy at its finest.

      So in any event, there is really nothing more I can learn from you and you are never going to change because you are too close minded. If I had to profile you, I'd say you are definitely over the age of 40, probably between 50-70 years old. And at this point in your life, you are fearing the end as many people in your age bracket do. Thus, you have gripped onto Pascal's Wager with all of your might and won't let it go. I know because my own parents fit that same bill. When I explain things to them, I can see in their faces that they know I am right, yet they've got nothing to lose at this point so they continue to trick themselves into believing. Probably not what God wants... people like my parents and yourself believing because it covers all of their bases. I'll bet God would much rather you be out helping people out of the kindness of your own heart instead... without doing so because of the promise of a reward. And you can say you do that all you want, but instead of you typing right now, you could be out helping a person in need as your Bible commands you to, but you are not. Actions speak louder than words. And that applies to every Christian on here.

      With that said, I am ending this conversation and any future posts to you will be much shorter as my time is valuable. Sincere best wishes to you. The last word is yours if you want it.

      Peace!

      March 1, 2011 at 4:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Let me get this straight. You bash Jesus' teachings so non-believers can get POT legalized. Then, being legalized, the government can now make money that the dealers are making to pay for the billions lost in the war? Mmmmmh, which means now husbands and boyfriends have the legal right to slack off all household responsibilities because it's legal now to justify their laziness.

      Mmmmmmmmhhhhh. So now, when a stoner reminds you that they took the garbage cans out to the curb 8 years ago. No one can say anything because their addiction is legal now.

      Yup, just ... flush America right down the toilet. Remember, no one's sober enough to jiggle the handle.

      March 2, 2011 at 3:24 am |
  15. Christian Crisis

    The 13 families whose blood line that make up the global elite secretly known as the illuminati are about to expose the world to the anti-christ through the new age movement, his name is Lord Maitreya. The elites (freemasons, skull & bones, the bilderberg group, bohamian grove, etc...) are going to do this right before they bring in martial law to put civilians in FEMA controlled concentration camps. They now have a mind control/weather machine called HAARP in Alaska. The elites also used the American government to carry out 9/11 and blame it on CIA front al-queda. Project bluebeam is going to make the majority if the world think this Maitreya is the messiah. Look at what the illuminati is feeding your young ones with the likes if Lady Gaga, Jay-Z, Rhianna, Lil Wayne, Drake, Justin Bieber, Will Smith and family etc... look up all the occult symbols they put in tv on the internet.

    February 28, 2011 at 1:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      CC, there is nothing new under the sun what evil men's minds want to do. They write the history books and change it to suit their purposes for whatever purposes are of interest to them at any given time while they are sucking up oxygen on this earth.

      February 28, 2011 at 1:58 am |
    • NL

      Justin Bieber a tool of the anti-Christ?!?

      I guess you didn't watch his movie, or read Rolling Stone.

      February 28, 2011 at 11:29 am |
    • Frogist

      @Heaven Sent: So you believe what Christian Crisis posted is what is actually happening?

      February 28, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Re: Justin Bieber: Hugh Heffner and fiance announced last night on Piers Morgan Tonight that JB, and his father, will be visiting the Playboy Mansion. I can only imagine the purpose of the visit... Perhaps someone can enlighten me about why a pious young man would want to visit such as place. And while we're talking about recent days believer heroes, any comments on why Trev didn't win in Phoenix?

      February 28, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Frogist, have you read 2 Timothy 3:12-4:4 ? After that read who you blindly follow in John 8:44.

      Oh, the young, how they've been buffaloed to think that they actually think. Gray matter has been turned to mush as they protest to much, and spew their babble.

      How do we spell CONDITIONING. Oh, that's right ... the "conditioned" are calling others that which they are, when they have no eyes to see, no ears to hear, just thumbs to turn the pages.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 5:45 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Frogist, have you read 2 Timothy 3:12-4:4 ? After that read John 8:44.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 5:53 am |
  16. tallulah13

    I think that Jesus lost all importance when they made him a superhero. Christ the human is someone that is admirable, if only for his revolutionary ideas and teaching. Without his humanity, Christ just becomes another human-created god in a long chain of human-created gods.

    February 28, 2011 at 1:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I find it interesting that after the Bible was written, man continues to rip off from His truth, calls it something else, and peddles his book to the masses.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:03 am |
    • Justina

      Tallulah, Jesus of Nazareth is God, that's why He was the supernatural Revolutionary. You created a wrong image of god with your filthy mind. When the real God comes, you'll be sorry for your evil stupidity, but it'll be too late then. Repent now.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:16 am |
    • Tallulah13

      See? This is what I'm talking about. All the wise lessons taught by the rabbi Jesus Christ are simply swept aside for supernatural threats. One is left to wonder, how many christians would there be without the golden ticket to heaven? I don't believe there would be many.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:54 am |
    • Yeah

      tallulah13,

      "how many christians would there be without the golden ticket to heaven? I don't believe there would be many."

      I think you are correct there. People are drawn to hero-worship, so of course we would have those; but the poisoned air would disappear from so many people's balloons.

      February 28, 2011 at 3:02 am |
    • Justina

      Tallulah, knowing Jesus is Heaven. You are just being warned to be right, because being morally wrong has criminal's consequences as justice. Please be saved from yourself.

      February 28, 2011 at 7:59 am |
    • Tallulah13

      Justina: Apparently you are indeed only a christian because of the magic prize. How enlightened of you.

      I am not worried about an afterlife. I neither want nor need one. I think if Jesus Christ truly existed, he was a wise man, truly ahead of his time. Sadly, the religion that stole his name reduced him to a golden ticket into immortality. What a shame.

      February 28, 2011 at 9:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Tallulah13 and Yeah,

      Jesus warned,

      Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. (Matthew 7:13).

      As Jesus taught,

      Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4).

      Life is had "by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (i.e. Genesis to Revelation). It is trust in the word of God that saves,

      as James exhorts,

      Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21).

      Amen.

      February 28, 2011 at 8:41 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Yes HS. And in the Illiad, Zeus said:
      "Nothing can be revoked or said in vain
      nor unfulfilled if I should nod my head." Lines 526-527

      Anyone can quote a god. There have been a lot of gods. Now back to the question: Would you be a christian if there was no heaven?

      March 1, 2011 at 2:08 am |
    • HeavenSent

      tallulah13, and Jesus spoke this truth for all those that believe in lies ... John 8:44.

      Have you read it yet?

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 5:37 am |
    • Tallulah13

      Again you quote a book. I could quote more words from more gods than Zeus and they would hold the same authority as yours. And still you have no answer to my question. Sadly, all you have is words borrowed from humans long dead.

      March 1, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Tallulah13, what part of good (righteous) behavior that takes responsibility for their thoughts/beliefs, actions versus bad (unrighteous) behavior that refuses to take responsibility for their thoughts/beliefs, actions of Jesus teachings do you not understand? You can continue spewing all your nonsense about Zeus and the man in the moon for all I care. None of them teach humans anything about life and why we are here.

      March 2, 2011 at 3:12 am |
  17. Secular Truther

    If you say their truth in a book that says the oldest person ever lived around a little over 900 years old, that incest populated the planet though god doesn't condone embreeding, the world is only 8,000 years old, 1 man and his 3 sons built a boat and stored over 12,000,000,000 animals on it, a human can survive in a whale's digestive track, the world is flat, the sun rotates around the earth, that the world is the center of the universe, god had to correct himself by sending his son (but yet he's perfect), also he's loving but will punish the innocent for others doings, etc... your disillusionment is a joke.

    February 28, 2011 at 12:39 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Secular truther, the Bible doesn't state the world is around 8,000 years old. The foundation of the world is millions to billions of years old, but you don't know how to read the Bible and cross reference it to the different books. The Bible explains this earth age that we all live in now, starting back with God creating the world again because He destroyed the first earth age ... when the dinosaurs roamed and angels existed. God calls dinosaurs behemoths. Man calls God's creation of the mighty beasts dinosaurs.

      Find out why God destroyed the first earth age ... why He created this earth age (the 2nd) and when the 3rd earth age comes to fruition and then we'll all be on the same page.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:50 am |
    • Secular Truther

      Sure, no wonder why there's tests that say the religious doesn't understand religion. Like I've always thought a lot of Christians really do not read their own religious text (that's the bible I'm referencing). If you read it yourself instead of letting a priest, pastor or reverend dictate it to you. A lot of them purposely take these parts of the bible out.

      February 28, 2011 at 8:38 am |
    • HeavenSent

      He told us that it is our responsibility to read the Bible and attending church was to hear the word with other like minds, then debate what was taught after each meeting to sharpen each others knowledge on His truth.

      February 28, 2011 at 8:30 pm |
    • Kieran

      As a Catholic I can tell you that my church interprets the Old Testament figuratively and embraces the theory of evolution. Also, God wasn't correcting Himself; he was correcting us. God is still constrained by logic: free will is a prerequisite for the act of love. Therefore he can't just wave his hand and force us to come to Him, and since He is life, the alternative is death. It's just that simple.

      The Catholic Church does not teach that God is simply restoring us to a state of blissful innocence that we once had before we messed up. He is actually lifting us to a much higher state than the supposed paradise of Adam and Eve, who didn't know evil or good. To know evil but choose good is far superior to being ignorant.

      You'll find that the theology of the Church is actually much more logical than you thought.

      February 28, 2011 at 11:05 pm |
  18. Reality

    Some of Professor Crossan's word's of wisdom:

    (from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

    "Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

    "Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

    "In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

    February 28, 2011 at 12:16 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, that's why most folks walk around spiritually dead today. His truth does explain the hell on earth for those that do evil.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:26 am |
    • Frogist

      @Reality: So this is the Prof Crossan you keep telling people about. He seems like a very level-headed guy. I will have to find some of his books to read. Do you have a recommendation of where to start?

      February 28, 2011 at 12:37 pm |
    • Reality

      Frogist,

      Start with Who is Jesus (with Watts). It is easy to read and gets to the issues quickly and succinctly.

      Some other recommendations:(out of the 25+ books written to date)

      The Historical Jesus (Harper San Francisco 1993)

      Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts (Harper San Francisco 2001)

      In Search of Paul ( Harper San Francisco 2004)

      The Birth of Christianity (Harper San Francisco 1999)

      The Jesus Controversy : Perspectives in Conflict (Trinity Pr Intl 1999)

      The Essential Jesus (Book Sales 1998)

      Who Killed Jesus? (Harper San Francisco 1996)

      Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (Harper San Francisco 1995)

      In Parables : The Challenge of the Historical Jesus (Polebridge Press 1994)

      An Inventory of the Jesus Tradition by Chronological Stratification (online)

      An Inventory of the Jesus Tradition by Independent Attestation (online) http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=Crossan_Inventory

      Common Sayings Tradition in Gospel of Thomas and Q Gospel (online)

      February 28, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, you are so busy telling folks to read this person's opinion about Jesus then read that person's opinion about Jesus. Opinions as you know ... are like ... and every one has one.

      Try reading Jesus truth on your own. Shelf your ego this time, open you mind to see His truth for your self!

      Too much to ask for a generation of no-noes that have been conditioned into believing they are using their minds?

      Good grief Charlie B, the sky is fallen, the sky is fallen.

      Oh, that was chicken little.

      If the chicken legs fit!

      SMILE.

      March 1, 2011 at 5:32 am |
  19. Ron

    I enjoyed the article.
    Many years ago, I came to the conclusion that when the Bible was but together, the intent was more than provide a book for the religion but rather a book that proclaims the Christian belief system and also reaffirm that Jesus is who he claimed to be. They went through many of the individual books of scripture written and only included those that supported the position they wanted to present and claim, while ignoring the rest. Mr. Crossan has raises many interesting points. Of course, for conservatives, anything that does not conform or reaffirm 'their' beliefs is automatically dismissed and vilified.

    February 27, 2011 at 10:46 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ron, everyone needs to read the Bible. It is the only way you will know what God wants for us and from us. The King James Bible is true and faithful to the Spirit of God that inspired the Prophets and Apostles to put it into writing (scribed) from the beginning. It is the Written Word of the Eternal Living Almighty Lord God, our Heavenly Father.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 1:20 am |
  20. The Truth

    In the article it states, "A casual search of Crossan's name online turns up plenty of insults and warnings not to read his books."

    Isn't that just typical of organized religions? They have the mentality of "Don't read or think about anything different than what we've already been brainwashed with." You can see that same trait on these boards with staunch believers over and over and over and over and over again. All one needs to do it go back through my posts, watch how I address and respond to people and then they can never produce a solid argument back, so what do they do? Instead of them realizing that there is a major hole in their belief logic, they choose to just ignore it, not address it and pretend it doesn't exist. This is because they have been so brainwashed that they fear the world of reality. The irony is that they can be "normal" in other aspects of their lives, just not when it comes to religion when they'll believe whatever it is they believe at virtually all costs. Yet if that same Christian grew up in Iran, that EXACT same person would feel just as strongly in favor of Islam as they do about Christianity. If they grew up in an atheist household, almost all of them would likely feel just as strongly that Christianity is ridiculous as they do about believing about it today. Thus, the whole concept is illogical.

    In the case of this man, why are people so afraid to read what he has to say? Why is ANYONE afraid to challenge their beliefs? Here's a newsflash for everyone: CONSTANTLY CHALLENGE YOUR BELIEFS AT ALL COST. Why? Because the only person that wins is YOU. If you challenge a belief, here is what will happen:

    - Option A: You find out that a belief you are holding doesn't make sense. You then alter your belief to something else that does make logical sense. You have now "won" by no longer holding a false belief. Holding false beliefs has ZERO value to you.

    - Option B: You give an honest 100% full challenge (not some weak half-hearted attempt) and find that your currently held belief is true. You have now "won" because you have reinforced a belief and now can hold that belief with a stronger level of confidence.

    So as you can see, it is a win/win scenario. Yet people tend to do one of two things:

    - Option 1: They are afraid to challenge their beliefs because they have been so brainwashed that they think they will go to hell or upset God by doing so. To this I say that God has provided you with a brain to think and reason and he'd much rather you challenge your beliefs and have something that you really believe in instead of letting some preacher/priest/minister/bishop, etc think FOR YOU.

    - Option 2: They "pretend" to challenge their faith, but they really don't. They give a facade of tricking themselves into the fact that they are doing so, but they really aren't. They "listen" to other arguments, but deep down inside they had their mind made up beforehand to stick with their current belief regardless. They are now hurting themselves by allowing others to think for them.

    There is a third option which is Option 3 and that consists of people genuinely challenging themselves. I went through all three of these options myself in my life and finally it was Option 3 that allowed "The Truth to Set Me Free." There are only a few people on these boards that still hold religious beliefs that I've seen that engage in Option 3 and I greatly admire their courage for doing so.

    And what this man is saying isn't really that far out there. If you want something radical to read, check out Carl Ruck (whom I pointed out to one of the few free thinkers I've come across on here as mentioned above). He is currently a professor at Boston University (a highly respected private university with religious affiliations) where he has expertise in Ethnobotany, Religion, Mythology, Greek Poetry and Language Training. Moreover, he received his degrees from Yale, Michigan and Harvard. Thus, I'd say this guy is pretty qualified and then some.

    To make a long story short, Ruck and others believe that Jesus and his followers could have been baptized to wash off cannabis oil. I know, that sounds far fetched (I laughed at first myself), but reading the whole concept from start to finish and the facts that he backs it up with, the case is pretty interesting to say the least. "Christ" itself means "the anointed (one)" (e.g. with oil) and thus it could be a double entendre of sorts or just that we perceive it to have a different meaning.

    Cannabis is known to have existed during that time and was used. Ruck even contends that the "recipe" for this oil may be contained in the Bible in the book of Exodus. Jesus was a man of peace which if you've ever smoked pot or know someone that has, it is right in line with typical behavior. This could also explain many of the visions and miracles that were performed. Dr. Le-st-er Gri-nsp-oon is a Harvard Professor and medical doctor who had literally rubbed elbows with some of the greatest minds in our lifetimes. He recently published an article in the Boston Globe calling marijuana a "wonder drug" that can be used to heal all sorts of ailments. If Jesus and his followers were anointing new potential members with the oil, this could have cured many of the ailments for a variety of reasons (both from a physical and mental standpoint). While they were touching the oil to anoint others, they too would feel the effects of it as it was absorbed through the skin.

    That's the gist and there is obviously much more to it. If you read what Ruck has to say, you must do it with a mindset that perhaps Jesus was "just" a man and how the uneducated people of the time might have been "wowed" by this wonder drug thinking it was miraculous. The article is below:

    http://cannabis.net/articles/jesus-cannabis.html (and you can read the HT article mentioned in the first sentence in the link above via Google search).

    And before everyone laughs off Ruck, keep in mind that he has a FAR better education than 99.9% of you on this site. In fact, because of his diverse background in understanding ancient languages, mythology, religion, and botany, he can understand context, interpret some of the texts himself, understand the various religious beliefs and how cannabis could have been tied in greater than most ministers/priests, etc can.

    It is funny that people are so scared of change. Heck, people can't even worship the REAL image of Jesus because they are SO brainwashed. They are brainwashed into thinking that Jesus is an attractive man with long blonde hair and blue eyes as if he was some sort of Brad Pitt wanna-be in Hollywood. Christians are in denial about even something as simple as this.

    Just to educate others, here's what your Jesus more than likely looked like:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/1282186

    But hey, that doesn't sell in religious stores and doesn't look as good in your churches and homes, so people just pretend he is something he is not. That is called delusion.

    In any event, have some courage and truly challenge your beliefs daily by reading opinions that are different from your own and keep an open mind in the process. I'll guarantee if you go full out and do this, in the end you'll be the winner by being better off as a result.

    Peace!

    February 27, 2011 at 9:54 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The Truth, just by posting all those others sites, proves you don't even follow your own advise.

      February 27, 2011 at 10:48 pm |
    • The Truth

      And while I'm here, let me talk to you about some of the things I've heard on this board from others:

      1) I've got one person who continues to donate and support the Catholic Church despite them ra-ping children and covering it up. Yet if that same person found the exact same thing happening at Toys R Us, that person would be picketing in front of Toys R Us stores, would boycott them and would demand that the CEO and all abusers be sent to prison immediately. Yet when religion is involved, the brainwashing "magically" allows that person to support child rap-ists. Mindboggling.

      2) I've got another person who runs around quoting things such that the Earth is a circle and not a sphere, that rivers don't run into lakes, that man discovered the world was round in the 1500's etc and then insists that I don't know what I'm talking about. Classic brainwashing delusion thanks to religion.

      3) I've got a bunch of people that are all upset that they've finally realized that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions and all worship what is for all intents and purposes the same God. They sit there and call me names, etc and yet "amazingly" all disappear and pretend it isn't real because they can't argue to the contrary. Classic.

      4) Speaking of name calling, it is amazing how a large percentage of Christians on here (certainly not all) have no problem calling others names, using ethnic slurs against people, making outright rude comments to others, swearing, etc. Yet they claim they are Christian which means follower of Christ. How many people did Jesus do that to in the Bible? It is rather pathetic that someone from outside of their supposed faith needs to instruct them about the overriding theme of the Bible that they supposedly claim to follow.

      5) I've got a bunch of people not wanting to accept that ho-mose-xuality is genetic, but rather that it is some horrific sin. There are classic xenophobes who use the Bible to support their discrimination. Here's a little piece I wrote in a blog I created in the past because the site I was on had character restrictions (ignore the word Catholic in the url as that was the name of the site I was on but it applies to all believers in the Bible equally). Thus, if you want to educate yourself on religion and ho-mose-xuality, then feel free to read it:

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/21/

      6) I've got a bunch of people that don't understand basic grammar and spelling who tell me things like, "Your stupid." lol This goes right in line with the various studies that show the more people believe in religion, the lower their intelligence levels. Atheists had the highest level of intelligence, followed by agnostics, followed by casual believers and with hard core believers coming in dead last.

      7) I've got people insisting that teaching abstinence works. The Bible Belt has BY FAR the highest rates of teen pregnancy anywhere in the country. In contrast, the ultra liberal NorthEast has the lowest rates of teen pregnancy. More delusion.

      8) I've got a bunch of people insisting how religion leads to healthy marriages. Yet then they get in an uproar when I point out that Atheists and Agnostics have lower rates of divorce than Christians, Jews and even the Mormons. This yet another delusion.

      9) I've got a bunch of people who insist the Bible is inerrant. Yet it is filled with errors, contradictions and false prophecies. If you want to educate yourself, you can scroll down a tiny bit on my link below (which is an archived past post of mine to someone else) and see 47 specific numbered examples of errors, contradictions and false prophecies in BOTH the New Testamant AND the Old Testament.

      http://uscatholic.yuku.com/topic/51/

      10) None of this even begins to talk about people who believe the world is only several thousand years old, that Noah's Ark is a real story, that man walked with dinosaurs, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on and on and on. These are delusional concepts.

      Wrapping things up, delusion is an actual mental disorder as defined by the DSM IV. It is UNHEALTHY to hold delusional beliefs. As you can see above, these concepts that people hold make little to no logical sense.

      As far as your Bible is concerned, it specifically tells you how to get into Heaven. Here's a site that lists out the 8 steps on how to get into Heaven (according to the Bible). Are you following them? If so, how many of the them are you following? If you aren't following all of them, then why do you continue in your faith?

      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video1.htm

      Peace.

      February 27, 2011 at 10:52 pm |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent: The Truth, just by posting all those others sites, proves you don't even follow your own advise.***

      Which of those 10 items I just listed above do you fall into? I know you know, so we'll leave it at that. Why don't you watch the video above and report back to all of us how many of those 8 steps to get into Heaven you follow. Thanks.

      February 27, 2011 at 10:55 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, Jesus told us in his own words to watch out for wolves in sheep clothing and to read the Bible on our own and not listen to men in this world for they will deceive us for their own benefit.

      February 27, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    • honestanon

      @ The Truth

      Seems that you've really taken all this to heart...

      > I've got one person,
      > I've got another person,
      > I've got a bunch of people,
      > I've got (another) bunch,
      > I've got, I've got, etc...

      Tell you what, Atlas... maybe it's time to give your shoulders a break. These droves and "bunches" are not singularly yours to endure. Try to live in the world with other less fallible beings. Yeah, I know... it's hard. It's a b!tch just working up the strength to walk out the front door every morning knowing that all these fools are out there laying in wait for you....

      February 28, 2011 at 12:10 am |
    • The Truth

      @HeavenSent: "The truth, Jesus told us in his own words to watch out for wolves in sheep clothing and to read the Bible on our own and not listen to men in this world for they will deceive us for their own benefit."

      Yawn.... So did Sam the Sheepdog and Ralph E. Wolf.

      http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/05/1/9/9/8110693063252312.png

      So once again, how many of those 8 steps to get into Heaven do you follow? Why are you so hesitant to simply answer the question? They are quoted DIRECTLY from your Bible. There should be no issue in you answering.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:14 am |
    • The Truth

      @honestanon: "Yeah, I know... it's hard. It's a b!tch just working up the strength to walk out the front door every morning knowing that all these fools are out there laying in wait for you...."

      LOL

      February 28, 2011 at 12:16 am |
    • honestanon

      "I believe it would be good for the country if more people in business, academic and professional worlds were known to be marijuana users." Le-st-er Gri-nsp-oon

      Bwhahahah!

      February 28, 2011 at 12:18 am |
    • honestanon

      I hope that the sarcasm's not lost on you...

      February 28, 2011 at 12:20 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, God has it built into all of us, a conscious. Our conscious tells us right from wrong. There are many who are anti-social personalities that block out their conscious, but, that's just because they love to what they want to do, to anyone, at any time ... aka lying = evil.

      What more do you want to debate regarding liars and those that want and continue to do evil and wipe out decency and truth? It's nothing new.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:22 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The truth, bottom line, I just try my best to be a decent person and not get tripped up by all the evil in this world. I've had evil folks destroy my life. I just picked myself and still go on being a decent person and not become bitter and evil because of their deeds. They own their evil egos. Not me.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:39 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @The Truth

      In relation to your point 7 above (birth control), in another thread I hypothesized that abortions in the USA is a believer problem. A believer challenged me on my assertion so I explained my non-qualitative logic and then I searched for the latest statistics. Turns out that well over 60% of abortions are for believers, so I believe it is correct to say that believers can substantially reduce the number of abortions in the USA if they would just follow their own rules. Of course, a realistic handling of birth control would go a long ways, but I'd settle for a little more actual committment to their own standards.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:50 am |
    • HeavenSent

      HotAirAce, who cares what the percentages are and who is in what category. It's still going against God's truth.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:58 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @HeavenScent

      Please explain why believers, when it comes to abortion, go against their god's will – much more than non-believers?

      Believers are leading the charge to make abortion illegal. It will be a long uphill battle that they may never win. There is a solution available to them that will dramatically reduce the number of abortion, with no change in law required. Why are you dismissing that solution? Do you believe that a change in the secular law will have a greater influence on believers than their personal committment to their faith? If you really believe abortion is against your god's will, why won't you chastise your fellow believers for their actions, just as you chastise non-believers for being critical of your beliefs? Why are you a hypocrite?

      February 28, 2011 at 1:05 am |
    • The Truth

      ***honestanon "I believe it would be good for the country if more people in business, academic and professional worlds were known to be marijuana users." Le-st-er Gri-nsp-oon. Bwhahahah!"

      Dr. Grinspo-on actually set out to prove the harmful of effects of marijuana and surprisingly discovered the opposite. Ironically, years later, his son died from cancer and he used marijuana (as a result of his research) to ease his pain and to help him eat. His list of accolades and people he's closely worked with are impressive to say the least.... we're talking Nobel Prize levels. I've personally spoken with him on numerous occasions and he's a brilliant man.

      With regard to his quote, it WOULD be good if those people were known to be marijuana users because they already exist. I work with C-Level Executives and the aggregate number of them that use marijuana is much higher than people would guess. Once our country accepts this as fact, then it will be easier to legalize it which means more tax revenue, less violence, less crime, billions saved for taxpayers from the DEA and all that money could go toward education instead of fighting a war that we can never, ever win.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 1:18 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HeavenSent "The truth, God has it built into all of us, a conscious. Our conscious tells us right from wrong."***

      People of all religions and those with no religion know right from wrong.

      ***There are many who are anti-social personalities that block out their conscious, but, that's just because they love to what they want to do, to anyone, at any time ... aka lying = evil.****

      As do people of all religions and those with no religion.

      ***The truth, bottom line, I just try my best to be a decent person and not get tripped up by all the evil in this world.***

      I have never once claimed that you weren't a good person as I don't know one way nor the other. With that said, you do probably try to do good.

      ***I've had evil folks destroy my life.****

      I'm sorry to hear that. There are evil folks of every religion and those with no religion. There are evil Christians just like there are evil Muslims just like there are evil atheists. Thus, it is a wash.

      So two last things:

      1) FYI... in your earlier points, it is "conscience" not "conscious." The first is what you meant, the latter means you are not unconscious in an ambulance.

      2) Why can you not answer the question about the 8 steps to Heaven? If you truly believe, this should be an easy item for you to answer. You don't answer because the items I stated in my first two posts are true and you are proving it. Instead of you challenging your beliefs, you just want to pretend that items such as these don't exist so that you can continue to believe what you believe at all costs. It is unhealthy to do this. But don't feel bad, you're not the only one as people cower out of these questions faster than Speedy Gonzales going after some cheese.

      Peace.

      February 28, 2011 at 1:19 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HotAirAce: In relation to your point 7 above (birth control), in another thread I hypothesized that abortions in the USA is a believer problem. A believer challenged me on my assertion so I explained my non-qualitative logic and then I searched for the latest statistics. Turns out that well over 60% of abortions are for believers, so I believe it is correct to say that believers can substantially reduce the number of abortions in the USA if they would just follow their own rules. Of course, a realistic handling of birth control would go a long ways, but I'd settle for a little more actual committment to their own standards.***

      Interesting... I wasn't aware of those statistics. Thanks for sharing! 🙂

      February 28, 2011 at 1:20 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @The Truth

      You are welcome! Statistics about abortion can be found at http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html. Believers actually account for about 70% of abortions. Here's another statistic – about 64% of abortions are for never-married women, and logically a large number of those would be believers engaging in s3x before marriage, another violation of their faith. In summary, abortion is largely a believer problem they should be be able to substantially reduce all by themselves, especially with the help of an omipotent imgainary friend.

      February 28, 2011 at 1:33 am |
    • The Truth

      ***@HotAirAce: You are welcome! Statistics about abortion can be found at http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html.***

      Awesome! Thanks.

      ***Believers actually account for about 70% of abortions.***

      On the site you referenced, it says that 23.7% of those that have abortions had no religious affiliation. Thus, that would leave 76.3% that do have religious affiliations. Thus, more than 3 out of every 4 women that have abortions have religious affiliations.

      ***Here's another statistic – about 64% of abortions are for never-married women, and logically a large number of those would be believers engaging in s3x before marriage, another violation of their faith. In summary, abortion is largely a believer problem they should be be able to substantially reduce all by themselves***

      Fully agreed. It goes back to them having delusions about abstinence, birth control, etc that is a huge source of these problems. Instead of dealing with these delusions, entering the world of reality and actually reducing the number of abortions themselves, they fall into yet another delusion and try to overturn Roe v Wade. This is delusional because it will only affect federal funding. States such as California will never outlaw abortion, so people can just go there or to a plethora of other states that will keep it legal if Roe v Wade was ever to be overturned.

      As I wrote elsewhere about abortion:

      >>Put aside your feelings for a second regardless if you are pro-choice or pro-life (actually those terms are misleading as virtually EVERYONE is pro-life, the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion are more apropos). Brazil has roughly 1/2 the population of the United States. Brazil also has a much higher percentage of Christians than the US does (around 78.4% vs 90.4%). In Brazil abortion is STRICTLY illegal (except in cases of serious health concerns to the mother or ra-pe).

      In the US abortion is legal. Yet the number of women that die from abortions in Brazil is substantially higher than the number of women that die in the US (despite the massive population delta). Why is that? It is because laws don't stop people from doing things. They only create unnecessary hazzards in many cases.

      If they made abortion illegal in the United States, the death rate of mothers seeking "now illegal" abortions would rise quickly. Girls in the Bible Belt would be off in the cornfields with hangers or plunging themselves down sets of stairs.

      So if people want to try to make abortion illegal, all you are doing is killing women in the process whether you like it or not. If you want to speak your mind and voice your opinion that abortion is wrong in your view, then by all means go for it as that is a much better alternative than living in a delusional world thinking that making things illegal prevents people from doing them.<<

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 1:50 am |
    • HeavenSent

      HotAirAce, believers and non-believers that have abortions or do anything against God's truth are blinded by the ways of the world that are systematically wiping God's truth from the planet.

      HotAir, do you know every Christian in the world? Neither do I. Besides, how would you know what I talk with any one unless you are privy to the conversation. I talked and still talk with many people, on many issues and have angered many in the past because I don't stroke their egos. That's nothing new.

      What changes to secular law are you referring to? If it's abortion, many Christians have been fighting abortion practices for years.

      Why am I a hypocrite for telling you what you've already told me, that being that you don't believe His truth? Besides, you folks use some of His wisdom, you just don't use His terminology and hence, don't even know where it came from?

      February 28, 2011 at 2:24 am |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "The truth, Jesus told us in his own words to watch out for wolves in sheep clothing and to read the Bible on our own and not listen to men in this world for they will deceive us for their own benefit."

      The problem with your advice, is that about 38,000 different denominations of Christianity have resulted from reading the bible. The bible is confusing and prone to misinterpretation (All 38,000 cannot be right).

      ambiguity – : a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression

      1. If god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.

      2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
      This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.

      3. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.

      Helping to spread the word!

      February 28, 2011 at 8:56 am |
    • Frogist

      @Truth: Thanks for all the info. I can't access any of it at the moment. But I will definitely try to later on. Also Hot Air Ace: those were some enlightening numbers. I must check out your links too.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:37 pm |
    • The Truth

      @David Johnson

      Well said!

      February 28, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • The Truth

      @Frogist "Truth: Thanks for all the info."

      My pleasure. Hopefully some of it will be of interest to you or someone else. 🙂

      Have a good day!

      February 28, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent
      You said: "God has it built into all of us, a conscious. Our conscious tells us right from wrong. "

      Not so. If that were true, one god giving everyone a conscious, then all of humanity would observe the same morals. They do not.

      Example:
      The Muslims believe it is moral to cut off a person's hands and feet for petty crimes.

      There are no set rules for behavior that cannot be changed. No objective morality. All morality is relative. Subjective.

      Our morals evolved along with our intellect. It is part of the survival of our species. We began to feel empathy for our fellow creatures. Sympathy for their misfortunes and pain.

      I watched a YouTube video of a school of piranha attacking a dead animal. They were ferocious in their feeding frenzy. The cool part, was that none of the piranha was bitten by his fellow piranha. Why? 'cause this action would endanger the survival of the species. It is a survival mechanism that evolved.

      We learn our morals and our religion from our parents.

      Society stamps every individual with its concepts. If you were born in U. S., you have many Christian concepts whether you are religious or not.

      The people of Iran have Muslim concepts.
      If you or any of the fundies were adopted by Muslims when you were babies, you would be followers of the religion of Islam. All children are born atheist.

      Nothing is always right or always wrong. War, killing, is wrong, but if you have a Hitler in the world, it is not as wrong as allowing him to continue killing.

      Abortion is wrong. But it is less wrong than giving birth to a baby conceived in in_cest or ra_pe. Or to a mother who has no means to provide for it.

      Society must decide what they will allow and not allow, based on an action's effect on society.

      Gay marriage has no bad effect on society. It should be allowed. Murder has a very negative impact on society. It should not be allowed.

      Notice how god is not needed for any of these decisions?

      Cheers!

      February 28, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @HeavenScent

      Dumbing it down for the dumb...

      You are a hypocrite because you want everyone to believe your book-of-silliness, but you apparently will not hold current believers accountable for their actions. You are a member of a group that wants to change abortion laws for all without apparently recognizing that your busy-body group could dramatically decrease the number of abortions if they only adhered to their professed beliefs. You want us to believe that your god is all-powerful when s/he cannot control their believers and prevent them from breaking their agreed to rules. You are a hypocrite because you want to blame non-believers for the behavior of believers when you should be advocating self-accountability within your tribe before trying to gather new recruits to your cult and worrying one second about those wise enough to stay away from religion.

      February 28, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson, each person is to read the Bible. Church gatherings are for followers of Jesus (like minds) to hear His Wisdom and then debate with each other what the sermon covered of His truth. Debating allows all in attendance to sharpen their knowledge of His truth, therefore, allowing more knowledge to be unveiled among all involved in church services that day.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 1:02 am |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson, in your response to my post. "@HeavenSent, You said: "God has it built into all of us, a conscious. Our conscious tells us right from wrong. "

      Not so. If that were true, one god giving everyone a conscious, then all of humanity would observe the same morals. They do not.

      Answer: Free will. The person chooses to do what is righteous (good) or chooses to do what is unrighteous (bad or evil).

      Example:
      The Muslims believe it is moral to cut off a person's hands and feet for petty crimes.

      Answer: They do not follow God (Jesus’ truth).

      There are no set rules for behavior that cannot be changed. No objective morality. All morality is relative. Subjective.

      Answer: That’s from a mind that does not want to take responsibility for the thoughts, beliefs, actions. Unrighteous beliefs.

      Our morals evolved along with our intellect. It is part of the survival of our species. We began to feel empathy for our fellow creatures. Sympathy for their misfortunes and pain.

      Answer: God tells us in His letter to us (the Bible) what He wants for us and what He wants from us.

      I watched a YouTube video of a school of piranha attacking a dead animal. They were ferocious in their feeding frenzy. The cool part, was that none of the piranha was bitten by his fellow piranha. Why? 'cause this action would endanger the survival of the species. It is a survival mechanism that evolved.

      We learn our morals and our religion from our parents.

      Answer: You learn the basics of what Jesus wants from your parents. You learn exactly what He wants from reading His truth, yourself.

      Society stamps every individual with its concepts. If you were born in U. S., you have many Christian concepts whether you are religious or not.

      Answer: Jesus is God. Americans know this truth as do the European countries, Canada, etc.

      The people of Iran have Muslim concepts.
      If you or any of the fundies were adopted by Muslims when you were babies, you would be followers of the religion of Islam. All children are born atheist.

      Answer: Muslim’s are told by Allah (it is written in their Q’uran) to follow Moses’ scriptures, then follow Jesus’truth after He came to earth and then died for ALL our sins.

      Nothing is always right or always wrong. War, killing, is wrong, but if you have a Hitler in the world, it is not as wrong as allowing him to continue killing.

      Answer: Righteous men/women versus Unrighteous men/women. Good versus Evil.

      Abortion is wrong. But it is less wrong than giving birth to a baby conceived in in_cest or ra_pe. Or to a mother who has no means to provide for it.

      Answer: Murder is wrong. Period. Conditioning learned to disobey God’s truth by the anti-christ ..satan.

      Society must decide what they will allow and not allow, based on an action's effect on society.

      Answer: We always have. Read the Bible for truth about life and why we are here.

      Gay marriage has no bad effect on society. It should be allowed. Murder has a very negative impact on society. It should not be allowed.

      Answer: Read the Bible where God’s says both are abominations and will be destroyed by the eternal fires.

      Notice how god is not needed for any of these decisions?

      Answer: God is the Alpha and Omega. God created ALL. He is I AM. God is the authority, not man.

      Amen.

      March 1, 2011 at 2:16 am |
    • LJ

      "Read the Bible where God’s says both are abominations and will be destroyed by the eternal fires." It's amazing that the historical context in which the scriptures you are interpreting is lost. Science and psychology have proven that what was written in the past about ho-mo-s3x-ual-ity was done by prejudice and bigoted people. It's been proven today that it is not a mental illness, it's not a choice and it cannot be voluntarily changed. It is because of this that there are religious leaders, pastors and churches that have gone on record stating it is NOT a sin. As a Christian who has been shown the truth about this group but you continue to spread lies about it – is an abomination.

      March 3, 2011 at 8:49 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.