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March 1st, 2011
12:27 PM ET
West Virginia students protest 10 Commandments' removalFrom CNN affiliate WVVA. The Giles County School Board voted Tuesday to removed framed copies of the Ten Commandments from its schools - for the second time in as many months. Now some students are speaking out against the decision. Some students have posted the Ten Commandments on their lockers. One group from Narrows and Giles have ordered t-shirts to express their opinions on the issue. The commandments were first removed in December, 2010 after a complaint. Read the full story about West Virginia students protesting the Ten Commandments' removal
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For the record, although the TV station reporting this story is in West Virginia, Giles County is actually in Virginia. There IS a difference.
...We are in Virginia...We might be a small town but we are getting some BIIGGG publicity a bunch of us at GHS walked out of class this morning
The ten commandments are indeed part of our collective Judeo-Christian history here in the West (though many other cultures who are not Judeo-Christian have made great contributions).
So are witch burnings, inquisitions, lynchings, segregation, crusades, etc. Just because something is part of our history does not mean we need to carry on with the tradition today.
Morality can be taught to our children without the need to surround it in religion, fairy tales, and myths.
I don't believe in God, and I respect the rights of those who do believe in God (it's your thing – go for it!). Isn't the question about the use of public funds – why would Christians want to have the 10 Commandments in a public school – isn't that personal?
I assume you are Australian.
Come to the USA, particularly the south, and see the lunacy we have to deal with. You'll have your answer questioned.
Yes, and many Australians see these things as personal and not for public debate. For example, we have an atheist Prime Minister – and no one cares because this is personal (it is not about her politics) – just as public schools are used for general education and religious education is served by your place of worship, associated community, family, etc.
Reading this, I'm inclined to move to Australia.
I am as well. Are you cute? Marry me for citizenship?
@ SeanNJ and Luke:
Careful, Jesus did not send the Pilgrims to Australia to create his Christian Kingdom on Earth. He sent them to Massachusetts, where his people could form a Christian America. You'll be leaving the safety and soundness of a Christian nation if you move to Australia. You might not even be able to find the Ten Commandments on a school locker there.
Wait a minute - I thought the Ten Commandments was a Jewish thing, and Jesus taught a new law? I'm getting confused. . . .
http://www.whatwouldamericanjesusdo.com
It took over a month to write a lousy TEN things with regard to human-god relations but only SIX DAYS to create everything?
Ten lousy commandments? Are you people RETARDED?
If you don't like my opinion, just remember that you give other people very little choice as regards usable information. Hm?
This has nothing to with the actual topic here. I am more upset that you are calling people "retarded' in big letters! use another word. I have a disability and do not appreciate that you use what I can't change to insult other people, in turn insulting me.
the ten commandments are found in the bible. that is the book that teaches men's dominance over women, approves of slavery and calls for the death penalty for those who work on the sabbatrh, curse their parents or commit adultery. it also calls for the beating of children to discipline them,and approves the punishment of the innocent along with the guilty.think of all the innocent children who died i noah's flood and the killing of everyone in sodom and gomorrah. the bible was written by a people who lived thousands of years ago and represents a primitive and often barbaric sense of justice. the ten commanments along with the codes of hammuraby and draco belong in museums.
1) The Bible doesn't support slavery. In the epistle "Philemon", Paul urges a man to not punish a slave for leaving him and to "treat him as a brother".
2)I'm a Christian, and even I agree there are some parts of the Old Testament that seem a little strange. However, that changes once you read the New Testament.
3)Actually, the Bible makes it quite clear no innocent people were killed when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
@Evan
You said: "Actually, the Bible makes it quite clear no innocent people were killed when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah."
I guess there were no children or innocent babies in Sodom or Gomorrah? Seems odd..
It is said: "By your fruit you will be known."
Let's look at the god of the Book's "fruit".
God directly or at His insistence, murdered men, women and children including babies. Is this good? Is this moral?
God killed every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah and his family, because man was wicked. Afterwards, He decides He won't kill everything again, because man's heart is evil from his youth. Is this good? Is this moral?
God had a man believe he was going to sacrifice his son to Him. Do you know how traumatic that would be for a father and his son?
If you had the power would you do this? Would you be so insecure? Is this good? Is this moral?
There was a man who loved God. God made a bet with Satan that even if the man were tortured, his Possessions taken, and his children killed, he would still love God and never curse Him. God won the bet.
Would you do that? Would you kill a man's children for a bet? Is this good? Is this moral?
God sent a bear to kill a group of children, because they had teased one of His prophets.
Did the children deserve to die, because they teased a bald man? Is this good? Is this moral?
God allowed a man to sacrifice his daughter to Him, for giving the man a victory in battle. Human sacrifice! Is this good? Is this moral?
God created a place He can send people to be burned for all eternity. Could an all good god do this?
If a puppy wet on the floor, would you hold it over a burner? Even for a second?
Jesus had this to say:
Matthew 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
A good god can't do evil things!
So, god could be evil or he could not exist.
Cheers!
@Evan
You said: "The Bible doesn't support slavery. In the epistle "Philemon", Paul urges a man to not punish a slave for leaving him and to "treat him as a brother".
No, Sparky. The New Testament and the Old, condone slavery. Jesus never said: " You can't own each other".
Ephesians 6:5-9 (NRSV)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.
Colossians 3:22-25 (NRSV)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality.
1 Timothy 6:1-5 (NRSV)
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.
T itus 2:9-10,15 (NRSV)
Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. … Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one look down on you.
1 Peter 2:15-20 (NRSV)
For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.
Looks like slavery was okay in the New Testament to.
Cheers!
The bible does not teach men's dominance over women. In Ephesians 5, men are to love their wives just as Christ loved the church, "he who loves his wife loves himself'. Wives are to respect their husbands........respect not dominant. Read the bible and learn......there is a difference in knowledge and wisdom.
Evan
False. Besides the supernatural claims that the bible does not condone slavery (it does), we can take a look at recorded history that is concrete in nature and indisputable. Slavery was originally outlawed in the west because the Christians said they could not own or enslave other Christians. The Church got around this by declaring that Africans were "not fully human" and therefore incapable of becoming Christians and available to be purchased and eventually enslaved. Take your "beleifs" about history and shove it. Not only does the bible condone slavery, but history proves that the Christians are responisble in part for the enslavement of an entire race of humans for profit.
Mike
Also false. The tenth commandment clearly equates women (wives) with homes, slaves and farm animals. Not only does it show that women are second class, but equates them with property. And this is from your precious 10 commandments that you want displayed in public places. I can't believe the lunacy I read from people defending the actions of the religious.
@Evan,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Philemon Paul never actually says slavery is wrong. All he says is that since Onesimus is now Christian and "...useful to both you and to me," he asks Philemon to treat him as a brother. Paul even offers to "pay ...back" anything that Onesimus owes to Philemon, which just confirms the obligation a slave owes a master. Of course all of this is just for one person who converted to Christianity, every other slave out there is still on their own.
"...no innocent people were killed when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah." I guess Lot's wife was guilty because she looked back against orders, right? Hmmm... death for turning around. Well, I guess death was the sentence for a lot of things, backtalk, flipping light switches on sabbath, wearing wool and linen together, etc.
@Mike,
Ephesian 5:22-24
"22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
How is, "wives should submit to their husbands in everything" not dominance?
Souless America goes nowhere.
Amen.
@Justina
@HeavenSent
Neither of you seem to understand. It is a public school. Children with different beliefs...some with no beliefs will attend the public schools. They should be made to feel as welcome as possible. We can't display religious symbols or texts from all different religions. We don't have enough time in the day to pray to all the gods.
So, the simplest solution. The best solution for all, is to ban all religious references. This is what the 1st Amendment demands.
To spend even a minute arguing this point, is to take away from the future of the children. The time should be spent learning math and science. All children, of all faiths celebrating the act of learning together.
Cheers!
David Johnson
David...buddy...don't you get it? They do understand. They just give a shiat.
The so-called "Ten Commandments" are NOT a part of American history. They are a part of the history of human attempts to control other people – and they are badly written and a truly pathetic example of religious writing as well.
And when you go to prison for murder, your religious beliefs are not an excuse when you are prosecuted in a very secular legal system. All you religious nuts out there need to realize that you are not above the Supreme Law of this Land – The Constltution.
We can live without your "holy books" but we cannot exist as the USA without our Constltution and the protections and framework it gives us as a society.
By attempting to subvert our civil rights, you religious people show us that you cannot be trusted with secular responsibilities.
You have no legal standing or right to impose your religion on others, especially where secular authority is concerned.
You have religious authority only within your religion. Keep it there.
You are free to believe whatever nonsense you like, but your religion is not allowed to have secular authority.
I should add that your religion is also SAFE from secular authority while the people who follow your religion remain subject to secular law.
That means no state-sponsored religion stuff -and if "priests" or followers break the law, i.e. child molestation, they go to prison for their secular crime.
You have special buildings for displaying religious nonsense. Use them instead of public venues and maybe we can live together in peace. Keep that stuff out of public schools. It does NOT belong there in any sense of the word.
problem? How do you put one foot in front of the other and not fall over, flat on your face?
You non-believers are clueless to what Jesus' teaches because your big egos smack right against His spiritual teachings.
Stop or change you can't accept in your personality when facing His truth. Then ...
Get over yourself.
HeavenSent,
Your big Christian ego is quite repelling.
@HeavenSent
I grew up in family where religion was never pushed. I did however go to a Catholic school, and let me tell you that I do not like the Christian faith. I respect it, but I do not like it. But please do NOT tell me that we non- believers are clueless to the teaching that are taught in the Bible. After going through school and having to take religion class, it disgusts me how hypocritical many Christians are. The Bible does say to love everyone, yet many Christians do not!! So please, before trying to tell others how much we are incompetent about the Christian faith, check what you know, and what the other "believers" know.
There are 55 counties in West Virginia, but no Giles county.
Giles county is in southwestern Virginia.
HeavenSent
(nice name by the way)
I agree with you on that, but im saying that in this case, i dont believe that these kids are using the commandments to try to convince others of our God. Which is why i think that the non-believers are getting upset. They think we are trying to sway them to believe differently (which would be a good thing though!) I believe that in this case, its a matter of reminding ourself of how we should live our lives. If they dont want to look at that poster... then they dont have to. its as simple as that. They are just too selfesh to understand.
It shouldnt be a matter of taking kids out of a school just because there is a poster on the wall. If anything... it would be good for the child to read a few of those commandments. Because if the parents are willing to pull there children out of school, theres probally a good chance they wont learn most of those morals. (except the obvious no stealing and no murdering)
I'm not so sure holymolyman. I've been studying Jesus' wisdom for years ... and the entire book of the Bible directs you back to the basics. The more you read, the more he reveals the intricacies of the deadly sins, the commandments etc.
Yes, the commandments per Jesus are utilized throughout society, even if though the non-believers call it something else (SMILE).
HeavenSent,
"...the commandments per Jesus are utilized throughout society,..."
Do you really think that Jesus was the first one to think up any of the philosophy that he preached? He drew upon ideas from many previous thinkers.
Something, yes, the Old Testament.
Pretty much everyone is aware of the 10 commandments, but not everyone is Jewish or Christian, so the commandments have no place is a state-funded school. If parents want their kids to learn biblical values, then take them to church, or enroll them in a private religious school.
Justina
False. Utterly false and totally inaccurate. These ideas were composed litterally thousands of years after Eastern religions and philosophies that garner very similar ideas. The Golden Rule – so to speak – was introduced litterally thousands of years prior to the OT and NT. Naerly every single attribute assigned to the fictional character Jesus was copied from Egyptian Myth dating back 4-5 thousands years. You fail. Go to the library and start reading for once. Then get back to me. Fool.
A simple "Do No Harm" sign would eliminate all the fuss!!!--
Oh, something like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" might work, but I think many of these folks would consider that too radical an idea. 😉
Reality, your "Do no harm" is totally screwed in meaning, so you need The 10 Commandments in written forms.
NL, you missed the first part, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..." part. Humans are morally responsible to God, not just to fellow humans.
Reality, there you non-believers go again. Stealing Jesus' wisdom. Renaming it to something else, and erasing Jesus' name out of everything.
Jesus stays.
Too bad for you!
HeavenSent,
"Do no Harm" is one of the hallmark teachings of Gautama Buddha, who lived and taught over 500 years before Jesus. Who 'stole' from whom then?
Something, no, that's what Isaiah said 200 years before Buddha. For antiquity, you can't beat Hebrews. We former pagans had all the conventional wisdom, but nothing profoundly complex and systematic like the Bible. Buddhists attract only air-headed Westerners. They should grant religious freedom in their land.
Did Isaiah even exist?
origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
"New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument. "
The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier docu-ment, rather than vice-versa."--
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. "
Justina
OK, the "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..." part covers the first few Commandments and the Golden Rule covers everything from respecting your parents on down, right? Surely, the 'God' half doesn't supersede the other half. You're not saying that it's OK to disrespect your parents, commit adultery, lie, steal and murder as long as it's an expression of your love for God, are you? Then it's not OK to harm others and disrespect their feelings even if you believe doing so is an expression of your love of God.
Now the real question is why aren't Christians throwing away the Commandments for Jesus' words? Why aren't we hearing stories of courthouses wanting to put up the Golden Rule? Why favor the old Law that Jesus clearly wanted simplified?
HeavenSent
Hi there, you egotistical fool. The golden rule was taken from the writings of Buddha, which date back LONG before the time of Jesus. Seems that your savior was a plagiarist. Time for you to go to the library.
Jesus didn't live in a mostly Christian state. We do. Although not everyone follows the ten commandments, it is a part of our history, regardless.
Let the parents take those kids out of government run schools and either home school them or send them to a parochial school.
margot707, I suppose you don't mind that the children of the world steal from you, as they lie to you, having no respect for you, your neighbors, or authority while they are doing what they want to do, when they want to do it. Then we can toss the rest of the commandments because margot hasn't a clue to what Jesus teaches.
Slavery and race segregation is part of our history, too. That doesn't mean white students should be separated from "colored" students, just because some might think it's okay.
Then there is this:
"The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier docu-ment, rather than vice-versa."
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5
@HeavenSent
You don't seem to understand. It is a public school. Children with different beliefs...some with no beliefs will attend the public schools. They should be made to feel as welcome as possible. We can't display religious symbols or texts from all different religions. We don't have enough time in the day to pray to all the gods.
So, the simplest solution. The best solution for all, is to ban all religious references. This is what the 1st Amendment demands.
To spend even a minute arguing this point, is to take away from the future of the children. The time should be spent learning math and science. All children, of all faiths celebrating the act of learning together.
Cheers!
Cheers
margot707 – Are you seriously proposing that parents be allowed to home school or pay for private school? What the? They are already allowed and no one cares if they do. What is the point of your argument? Did you have anything meaningful to add?
I think American Jesus would be in favor of hanging the Ten Commandments in state-run schools. The real Jesus was always insisting that the Roman government include the Jewish Torah in Roman libraries, schools, soldiers' quarters, etc. His followers were always trying to hang their scrolls and beliefs in the government's buildings, where taxpayers could pay homage to them. So we should, too.
http://www.whatwouldamericanjesusdo.com
Don't mean to be disrespectful but who taught you that? There is no scripture that says that. As Jesus was being tortured and killed he did not say who he was or what he thought of the government. Up to then there was nothing in the Bible to say he had anything to do with Romans.
Bob – Go look up the definition of "sarcasm."
I don't care what American jesus or any other mystical imaginary manmade being thinks! S/he and his/her cult members can do whatever they want in their private spaces. If they bring their beliefs into the public domains, they should expect resistance to the spreading of their propaganda.
Oh, really HotAirAce. You are telling Christians to let chaos rule? I can tell you are young and not a parent yet. Check back with me in a few years after you have children and let me know how you oversee their development!
@HeavenSent,
That's a false dichotomy. Lack of religion does not mean chaos.
HeavenSent...what a load of bung. I am older and I have two kids I am proud to say are well behaved and great in school. Both are involved in sports and extracurricular activities. They were brought up in an atheist household by myself and their loving mom (my common law wife). No need for prayers and devotions to imaginary beings. No need to scare them with tales of hell. No need to brainwash them into accepting faith blindly.