Sweat lodge trial fuels Native American frustrations
Passed on through tribe elders, the ancient sweat lodge ceremony is still sacred to Native Americans.
March 2nd, 2011
09:19 AM ET

Sweat lodge trial fuels Native American frustrations

By Jessica Ravitz, CNN

Growing up on a reservation in lower Saskatchewan, Alvin Manitopyes learned early to respect the sweat lodge. He was 10 when he attended his first sweat ceremony, and for more than 15 years tribe elders instructed him in his people's ways.

He understands the spiritual mandate he was given as a healer to serve as an intermediary between people and the spirit world. He carries with him the ancient ceremonial songs, passed on through generations.

He knows how the natural elements - earth, fire, water and air - work together to cleanse people, inside and out, and create balance. At 55, he has spent more than 20 years conducting ceremonies in sweat lodges, where water is poured over hot lava rocks as part of a purifying ritual.

"If you have the right to do it, then the environment you're creating is a safe place," says Manitopyes, a public health consultant in Calgary, Alberta, who is Plains Cree and Anishnawbe. "But today we have all kinds of people who observe what's going on and think they can do it themselves. … And that's not a safe place to be."

No example of what worries him is clearer than the case of James Arthur Ray, a self-help guru who led a crowded sweat lodge ceremony that left three people dead. Ray faces manslaughter charges for the deaths allegedly tied to his October 2009 "Spiritual Warrior" retreat outside Sedona, Arizona. His trial began this month.

Ray pleaded not guilty to the charges and has been free on $525,000 bail. Prosecutors say the deaths resulted from Ray's recklessness, an overheated lodge and because he encouraged people to stay inside when they weren't feeling well. His defense team denies those allegations, and attorney Luis Li has called what transpired "a terrible accident, not a crime."

Accidents, in fact, have happened even in ceremonies overseen by tribes. The Seattle Times reported a year ago the death of a 29-year-old Puyallup tribe member in a Swinomish smokehouse ceremony on a reservation near La Conner, Washington. The cause of death, overheating, was ruled accidental by a county medical examiner, the paper reported. And no criminal charges were filed in that case because it was an accident, says Alix Foster, an attorney for the Swinomish Indian Tribal Community.

The Ray case highlights an outrage that's long existed for many Native Americans. They are tired of their traditions being co-opted by others and exploited for capital gain. They resent that a ceremony they view as sacred is now being tied to terms like "death trap." They don't want their ancient ways to be deemed fashionable or inspire impersonators.

In Ray's Spiritual Warrior retreat, participants in a "vision quest" fasted for a few days before Ray reportedly led more than 50 of them – at least 30 more than the number many Native Americans recommend – in a sweat ceremony meant to purify. Each participant paid about $10,000 to take part in the retreat.

After the disaster and criminal charges, representatives of various tribal nations stepped into the legal fray, filing a federal lawsuit last March against Ray and those who run the Angel Valley Retreat Center, where he had leased land for his program.

The plaintiffs, on behalf of their tribes, sought to end the "abuse and misuse" of their ceremonies and hoped to convince the court that their rituals were their property and should be protected under the federal Indian Arts and Crafts Act. Just as a merchant can't claim earrings were made by Native Americans if they weren't, their ceremonies shouldn't be falsely advertised either, they argued.

That suit was dismissed in October. The court held that "the operation of a sweat lodge is plainly not art, craftwork or a handcraft." Services can't be protected like goods, the court ruled.

Amayra Hamilton, along with her husband, Michael, owns the Angel Valley Retreat Center, where the lodge was located. Their business has suffered greatly since the sweat lodge incident. The couple, in fact, has filed a business claim tort suit against Ray for running his retreat, on their property, in what their attorney Kelley Ruda calls "a ridiculous manner."

But a December 2009 letter to prosecutors from defense attorney Li said, “Mr. Ray and his team relied on Angel Valley to provide a safe environment, warned people of the risks, did not force people to participate, did not prevent them from leaving, and did everything they could to prepare for any problems and to assist when problems arose.”

Several civil personal injury/wrongful death suits are pending against Angel Valley, Ruda says, but they are on the verge of out-of-court settlement.

As for how tribe members reacted after the incident, Hamilton of Angel Valley says, “I feel how hurt they are. And I have an understanding of it.”

Just as many Native Americans feel stung by what Ray allegedly did, Hamilton says so does she.

"Our focus here is on transformation, growth, sensitivity and creating a safe space," she says. "When something like this happens, is it a violation? Yes, it is."

The takeaway lesson for the couple, Hamilton says, is to make sure programs on their property are aligned with their intentions.

"We were removed" from Ray's program, she says. "We are more critical of who we allow here to do their work."

James Arthur Ray’s sweat lodge ceremony in this structure left three dead and became a crime scene.

But even if she gets why Native Americans might be offended, Hamilton believes sweat lodges have a place and purpose beyond sanctioned tribal ceremonies. She says she and her husband suggested Ray split his retreat into two smaller groups and that the lodge had been used before Ray arrived, effectively and safely. Plus, the practice of doing sweats does not belong exclusively to anyone, she says; similar ceremonies happen worldwide.

That's a point echoed by Ruda, the attorney for the Hamiltons. She points to sweat structures and traditions dotting the globe: the Russian banya, the Finnish sauna, the Hindu fire lodge.

But Floyd "Looks for Buffalo" Hand, 71, doesn't care about the traditions of others. He's worried about the sweats that seem blatantly modeled after his people's practices.

A member of the Oglala Lakota Delegation of the Black Hills Sioux Nation, he was among the plaintiffs listed in the now-dismissed complaint against Ray. A grandson of Chief Red Cloud and a descendant of the Crazy Horse Band, he was reached at his home on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, where he has lived his whole life.

"I sat back two weeks watching the news (about Ray's sweat lodge incident), waiting for another tribe or individual to say something because they violated the way of life of the Lakota people," he says. "It is a way of life, our language, our custom, our culture. It's the way we live."

Adding insult, he says, was how Ray benefited, "making over $500,000 off of our way of life," charging for what is sacred.

This disbelief and frustration spans generations.

Autumn Two Bulls, 29, also lives on Pine Ridge, and just thinking about the dream catchers that hang in trendy gift shops, the non-Native Americans who make money off her people's artifacts, makes her cry "rape."

"Haven't native people been through enough?" says Two Bulls, a writer who created Reservation H.E.L.P. (Helping Every Lakota Person), an organization to help impoverished families.

"It's a fad to be Indian today. … They envision us like a fantasy culture," but the harsh reality is one they helped create and won't face, she suggests.

She says this from her reservation, where there's 80 percent unemployment, suicide rates are reportedly 300 percent higher than the national average and alcoholism ravages her community. Two Bulls says she was 18 when her mother died in her arms from cirrhosis.

"In America, you are an individual. You can be whatever you want to be. When you're Lakota, we belong to each other. So when you take our way of life and put a price tag on it, you're asking for death, you're asking for something to happen to you."

It's not that she believes anyone deserved to die in Ray's sweat lodge; they were victims of his "wannabe" ways, of his playing with a tradition that wasn't his to claim, she says.

"But honestly, I think the spirits went and did something there," Two Bulls says. "He has taken the deaths of our ancestors, the slaughtering of our babies, and he sold it. And it came back on him and killed those people."

Less than a week after the Ray ceremony turned deadly, Valerie Taliman, a Navajo journalist and columnist for Indian Country Today Media Network, penned a scathing column with the title "Selling the Sacred."

She called out Ray for his actions, including that he fled Arizona after the ceremony.

"Who does that? Only a huckster posing as the real thing," she wrote.

Taliman, 53, also wrote about long-standing efforts by Native Americans to stop the "appropriation and exploitation of sacred ceremonies," pointing to a 1993 international gathering in South Dakota of 500 Lakota, Dakota and Nakota nation representatives. Together they "passed the 'Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality,' denouncing individuals involved in the New Age movement, shamanism, cultists, and neo-paganists and others who promote 'intolerable and obscene imitations of sacred Lakota rites,' " Taliman wrote.

Ray is a symbol, the latest and most horrifying example of what this trend purports, she says by phone. And the double standard in how he's been treated is glaring, she says.

"If an Indian man, a traditional person, killed people in a sweat lodge, he'd be in jail," she says, not free on bond. "And if I went out, and I impersonated a Catholic priest, and charged people to attend ceremonies, they'd arrest me."

Perhaps no one feels more troubled by what happened during Ray's retreat than David Singing Bear.

He was enlisted by the Angel Valley Retreat Center to advise on the construction of the sweat lodge Ray would use, a point the Hamiltons' attorney, Ruda, also highlights.

"To the extent that they (Native Americans) think it was a bunch of white people tying sticks together, that's not the case," Ruda says.

Singing Bear is a 60-year-old Eastern Band Cherokee who calls himself a wisdom keeper, ceremonial leader and healer. He says he spent 20 years learning from tribal elders on reservations across North America.

So when he was asked to offer advice in creating a sweat lodge outside Sedona, where he lives, it mattered to him that it was done right. He says he selected the blankets and canvas covering that would breathe and offered the space traditional blessings and prayers, at no charge. And he says he worried when he heard how large they said Ray wanted it to be.

He says he told higher-ups at Angel Valley that what Ray wanted was too big and that only trained facilitators should lead ceremonies. Hamilton says, "I do not know what he said at the time."

Singing Bear, who’s been named a witness in Ray’s criminal trial, says he doesn’t allow more than 20 people in a sweat because each person needs to be looked out for and protected. Others add that Native Americans would never pressure anyone to stay. The allegation that Ray did this, again, is one the defense team denies.

With or without him, Singing Bear says, that lodge was going to be built because it was what Ray wanted. And he says he had no reason to believe the structure he was consulted on and his nephew built, one meant to represent the nurturing "womb of Mother Earth," would go on to become a crime scene. Now, though, he'll stay away from these kinds of requests.

"They don't care about our ways. It's a dollar sign to them," he says. "I'll never mess with colonialists again."

- CNN Writer/Producer

Filed under: Courts • Culture wars • Interfaith issues • Sacred Spaces • Traditions

soundoff (616 Responses)
  1. omikse

    It would seem that Gary Fourstar is not who he claims to be, check with the enrollment office. It would also seem that David Singing Bear, on the witness list for Rays' trial, is not who he claims to be. Hey, CNN reporters, do some checking around, don't take their word for who or what they are. Check with tribal enrollment offices, do some background work on these people, do some real investigative reporting. Gary claims he is part of and participates in the Native American Elders and Youth Council of North America. I have contacted the Office for American Indian, Alaskan Native and Native Hawaiian Programs, in Washington DC.They have not heard of any such organization. Jerome Fourstar is not Garys' father, he was not adopted away from him. Ask Carl Fourstar, Jeromes' son about Gary.

    March 24, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
  2. greybear

    First, let me make clear that I am not a Native American. My roots go back to Europe, where Europeans practiced similar ceremonies to the Sweat Lodge long before the dawn of Christianity. I completely agree with the Native Americans who are offended by this gross capitalistic grab for money. Second, no authentic Native American spiritual leader would charge one cent for a ceremony of this kind, so that's a tip off as to what's going on here . If white Americans are interested in their spiritual heritage, let them go back and discover their European roots and ceremonies and leave the tribes alone. We have all ready caused enough damage, let's not make it worse by trying to steal their sacred ways too. They belong to them and should stay that way.

    March 24, 2011 at 11:21 am |
  3. omikse

    I have been trying to post a comment on the CNN reporters doing a sweat lodge, I have a few issues with what I saw in the video. First, why, oh why, were tarps used on this lodge as well as the "Death Lodge" which Ray did?....If Gary Fourstar is a Traditional person, he must be aware that tarps are non-traditional. It makes no difference if the tarps are blue, silver, green or brown. In a Traditional Native American Sweat Lodge, tarps are NEVER used. It would be very unsafe as the lodge would be unable to breathe, the steam would have no escape as the tarps are not meant to allow for any air/steam exchange. In Tradition, animal hides or blankets are used, as well as cedar boughs, they allow the steam to escape slowly, not build up to a dangerous level inside the lodge. In Native language, or mind-set, there is a very big difference between "Traditional" and the word traditional....Gary Fourstar needs to check out his Assiniboine heritage, tarps are not Traditional. My second point is the disappointment in watching reporters, Christi Paul, Ryan Smith and Jane Velez-Mitchell do a lodge covered in tarps. As reporters, I have to question their research in what the construction of the lodge was suppose to involve. Just as the photos show Rays' "Death Lodge" covered in tarps, they are shown outside, what they were led to believe was a (?) Traditional lodge....covered in tarps. People, really?? Did you not question the wisdom in entering a lodge covered in tarps??...Reporters need to do homework, their final grade for this shared video experience is a collective "F"....you all failed.

    March 23, 2011 at 11:38 am |
  4. white wolf

    only the warriors, MEN, go into the sweat lodge, the women only help with water on the rocks and taking care of the MEN when they come out!!!

    March 21, 2011 at 9:06 am |
  5. Nativ e

    1st of all Taking money for any spiritual event is wrong. He obviously doesn't know or had permission to lead a ceremony. 2nd Lakota ceremonies shouldn't be shown to people who will use it for SELF gain. Every culture will agree you don't pray for yourself but to help others in need. Malakota, Ho chanke unsiic iya wahi nazi yelo.

    March 20, 2011 at 7:30 pm |
  6. carla bruyere

    These vulnerable people were miss lead to their death and that's horrible!...This man was simply greedy and selfish and there's nothing spiritual about him! He obviously started to believe his own hype and became an ego maniac and look at what it cost these people? A lot of people these days are abusing this supposed image of Native spirituality but in reality these are not real sweat Lodges, or ceremonies... And if any person capitalizes and sells all this fake, mind born representation of who we are as people then there not all that spiritual either!

    March 16, 2011 at 1:14 am |
  7. bird tribe

    The author Henry Miller said, "No man is great enough or wise enough for us to surrender our destiny to. The only way in which anyone can lead us, is to restore to us our belief in our own guidance." In the search for enlightenment these people gave up their belief in their own inner guidance and their personal power to a man who was no wiser or enlightened than they themselves. And some paid dearly for this mistake.

    March 15, 2011 at 10:12 am |
  8. Carl Hammerschlag M.D.

    Here’s my summary of the first week of James Arthur Ray’s trial. Ray is the motivational guru charged with involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of 3 people during a sweat lodge ceremony in Oct. 2009. Last week, the first witnesses were called; survivors of that sweat lodge. They described the intensity of the heat, the unfolding sickness and watching their friends die.

    Ray's attorneys asked these witnesses if they could have left the lodge at any time. They said yes, and explained the reason they chose to stay in was because they wanted to experience these events that they believed were meant to help them gain control over their lives. They liked James Ray, believed he had something to teach that they wanted to learn, and they trusted him.

    The participants signed the waivers saying they knew the experience came with dangers. Ray told them about the risks, even exaggerated them telling participants his sweat lodges were “not for wimps”, they were so hot they would feel as if their “flesh was falling off their bones”. His sweats were not for wimps. This was a Spiritual Warrior retreat and if they dropped out they weren’t committed to making the changes they said they wanted to. Ray told them that this was the ultimate battle and that they “could live an honorable life, devote themselves 100% to everything they do, or they could exit dishonorably.

    This experience bears no resemblance to an authentic Native American sweat lodge; a sacred ceremony intended to open your mind/body/spirit to seeing something that you need to know, not potentially kill you. The leader doesn’t decide what you need to see or learn, that’s between you and the ‘stone people’ whose steam is the breath of your ancestors. The Native sweat lodge is intended to illuminate the spirit, not eliminate it.

    Ray may have outlined the risks, and he may not have physically kept them from leaving, but he made it difficult to do so. Those participants paid up to $9,000 to participate and they wanted to get their money's worth. They signed the waiver believing he would deliver what he promised, taking them on a journey of intense experience, and leading them out the other side.

    This was more than an intense experience; it was a fraudulent violation of trust.

    March 14, 2011 at 8:06 pm |
  9. Steve Antos

    Like it or not, if this is true it changes everything regarding the James Arthur Ray sweat lodge incident:

    "On the night of the accident, Ted Mercer, an employee of Angel Valley Ranch and the man who built the lodge, told detectives that the tarps used were “stored with chunks of rat poison all year long in a shed,” he further told detectives that this was the first year that they used “pressed wood to heat the stones versus tree wood” and that he was “told by Hamilton to do so.” Pressed wood is well known to contain formaldehyde and other poisons and to be toxic when burned."

    March 11, 2011 at 9:47 pm |
  10. hateskitterkat

    My name says it all.

    March 11, 2011 at 2:36 pm |
  11. Native to Native

    Gary Fourstar???? I thought he was Colonel Sanders.

    March 11, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
  12. jake

    Jennifer Haley seems to be a good match for Charlie Sheen. She is nutty as a fruitcate. I mean look at her , can't keep still, eyes bugging out. No body I know are interested in this trial, it is the Casey one we watch, but we did se this Haley playing with the water bottle cap, she seems to be on something. Also This case is dumb. Grown people paying tons of money and doing this. Dang dummies. I want to know if something had happend4ed to the crew of Hln in their exp, would they sue as well.

    March 9, 2011 at 10:13 am |
  13. tecpaocelotl

    Gary Fourstar is very questionable as stated here:


    March 7, 2011 at 9:53 pm |
  14. Lynn

    As a Canadian, I have had the pleasure, and honour, of being welcomed into the Native community. My own heritage is French-Canadian. That being said, I do have a heritage line of co-mingled bloodlines: my ancestory includes Ojibwa, Blackfoot, Irish, and, French. So where do I fit in???? I am described as cacasian; yes I am white, by apppearances. So you can take my comments as a white person, or, as a Native person because of my ancestry, or both. Either way, people please listen. I FEEL, the ability to run, or conduct, a sweat-lodge, or prayer lodge, is a finely developed skill through a great many years of teachings that are handed down through generations of Elder's wisdom and lessons within the community.To become a lodge-keeper, there are sooo many guidelines (white language) to be 'obeyed/taught'. With a sweat lodge, RESPONSIBILITY is not taken lightly, and one is not 'given' a lodge until one earns it and knows what is at stake – peoples' well-being and life. It IS a Native 'tradition' (for lack of better terminology) and should be respected as such, in my opinion. I have done countless prayer/sweat lodges; I have NEVER been in harms way. I have never been asked to 'stay' if I felt uncomfortable, or, if I had the need to leave. I have NEVER been in ANY lodge that holds more than it was meant to hold, or, been built to such a large capacity. A number of 50 is outrageous. I have NEVER paid any money to participate in this sacred ceremony. I have always felt loved, protected, and at peace within a lodge of my choice, regardless of 'denomination/tribe'. (Once again for lack of better terminology.) Unfortunatley, we have people with no respect for any teachings (Native or otherwise), used in the name of 'SPIRITUALITY.' What Ray did came from a place of greed and total disreguard towards ANY humans' well being or life, for the almighty dollar and profit. He took money from people who were searching, taking advantage of their innocence and belief system, placed them in an unsafe environment where he had no proper teachings, because if he had, he would never have 'been given' a lodge to begin with. The Elders in the community would have understood his incompetency to run a lodge; he would NEVER been 'given\ the responsibility to begin with. That's why it should stay within the Native communities and be legislated as 'one of their specific traditional practices.' The Elders would have seen through Ray's greedy inspiration. I feel for David Singing Bear because I understand him wanting the lodge to be done properly; following his 'traditions' and not wanting it to be set up without proper fundamentals in place. I am sure, when it was erected, many prayers and ceremonies were put in place upon it's rise. Unfortunately, what happened did, and maybe the lesson here is: three people (unwillingly) offered up thier lives to bring this subject into the light. I hate to say it, but, in the pursuit for 'enlightenment', if you are paying for 'cleansing and liberation' from this world's hold or bonds, the old adage of 'buyer beware' may come into play. Not to be disrespectful here, but, they chose to follow this man, into a setting that was false and unsafe; they were conned and now all eyes are on a (the Native) community that does not take libeties with this ceremony. So I guess my bottom line is this: Don't be naive and smarten up. If you are going to put yourself in a dangerous place, for whatever reason, in spiritual persuit, don't just follow the 'fakes and pretenders' because that person says it's safe. If you lived, or had any teachings within the Native community, you would know that the lesson of DISCERNMENT is one of thier many teachings. This is a perfect examlpe of that lesson. For now, this what I have to say. Like it or not, our world is changing; division of understandings is not healthy, but, lets be honest here, Ray is liable, the Native Communities teachiongs and practices should NOT be on trial as well.

    March 7, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
  15. bege

    If you want to swaet just go outside, It was freaking Arizona, wasn't it like 95 anyway. Or you could just take yoga classes and go to a gym with a steamroom or sauna. natural selection anyone?

    March 6, 2011 at 11:29 pm |
  16. Dolfte

    For the love of the almighty dollar, we forgo our life of freedom. So many of our fellow man have sacrificed thereself of peace in life , and taken the lives of others.

    March 5, 2011 at 10:59 pm |
  17. nibiinaabekwe

    When we're talking about Native Americans, I hope that people can be bothered to acknowledge the diversity within the group. There is no unified 'Native American' group. Instead, there are many tribes with their own cultural, linguistics and political histories. Saying something is a Native American saying/food/cultural practice is like saying baguettes are an old Eurasian tradition. Sure bread is something most European culture share, but there is a lot of variation between the different countries.

    Incidentally, the common spelling is Anishinaabe not Anishnawbe–but I'm glad to see the endonym used regardless of spelling.

    March 5, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
    • Student of American Indian History at UNC-CH

      Thanks, nibiinaabekwe. Someone needed to make that point, and you made it extraordinarily well.

      March 14, 2011 at 10:45 pm |
  18. fedresponder

    Great point brought up in this article about 'messing' around/experimenting with our (Native) ceremonies. Arrogance, selfishness, greed, ignorance, no training and no RESPECT are what caused these deaths. These new age charlatans are the first in line to steal our old ways, re-package it to egotistical, greedy fools who think that if it's expensive...than its really worthwhile. If he charged $5 bucks per head, they'd pooh-pah it as trivial bunk. But $10,000...whoa, it's gotta be amazing! He's probably back in his Hollywood Mansion partying like a rockstar while the injured family members suffer. It's not only white people ripping others off, there's a few Natives around who try and rip off whites/others as well. Red flag warning signs that a Native ceremony is fake: money is being charged, it's taking place on a new age retreat, its being run by new age types, you have to sign off on paperwork/contracts, drugs are involved, peer pressure/manipulative tactics are being used, it involves attending seminars/pamphlets/advertisement, embarassing/degrading behavior is happening (shaving heads, etc) and you have have a bad feeling about it (gut instinct).

    March 5, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • WarriorsMk2u

      Thanks for the common sense. Most whites think Indian not Native American. They think the west and not the east. Traditions vary widely. They can't be one with themselves and never realize they are part of the whole not a part or apart from the whole. If they want to experience a Native American experience my father said he would put them through his experience at Carlisle.

      March 14, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
  19. J

    Whoa! Safety tips and condemnation from someone that has spent his life selling snake oil! Ima pay attention.

    March 5, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      These con artists are everywhere today with one scam after another. Why? Because the courts want the victims to pay money to bring them to court. How can a deceased victim take anyone to court? Oh, then it's up to the family or friends to shell out big money to get what? The courts saying you won, now try and collect!

      Our court systems, attorneys, politicians are all blinded by greed today. Yes, we'll have 1 or 2 righteous judges and the rest ... ha!

      March 10, 2011 at 8:15 pm |
  20. RAY

    What could possibly make anyone think that this man knew ANYTHING about enlightenment simply because he could sell a few books and sell seminars for $10000. Must be nice to have that kind of money for B*llSH&T. To me thats a car or a house down payment and these clowns use it to sweat with an exploitative moron?

    March 5, 2011 at 5:36 pm |
    • Dave

      C'mon, $1k, selling books, seminars etc... Maybe your in the wrong business....

      March 5, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
    • spindrift

      My family is from N.M. for generations. I carry enough native blood to be legally native and have been asked my tribe by total strangers. I find it astounding that normally intelligent people fall for greedy hucksters like this man, and try to put some kind of native spin on it. Fools! The blood I carry earns me nothing- one must be raised in tradition. Respect of the land and the souls of men, it is a knowledge that carries no price. This stuff is fueled by romance and imagery, not truth. Like the native warrior and his horsemanship skills. Taught by the Spaniards and then built upon. No magic-just smarts! And 10 grand to watch Tom Cruise. Give me a break! I'll take a good horse anyday. That dna did come through and with it much wisdom.

      March 14, 2011 at 5:25 pm |
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