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March 4th, 2011
04:52 PM ET
Your Take: Does the Bible condemn homosexuality?There were thousands of comments on Thursday's Belief Blog post arguing that the Bible condemns homosexuality, a response to another guest post arguing that the Bible is much more ambiguous on homosexuality than previously thought. Most of the comments appear to doubt the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality - or challenge the wisdom looking to the Bible for guidance on such matters. And, as usual, we're struck by all the atheist comments. They seem to far outnumber believers' comments. Josei Neutralizer kcv You can look at your neighbor and decide that you would NEVER do, act, or speak things that they will do, act, or speak ... but they are looking at you thinking the same! None of us are perfect, and we ALL do things the Bible says not to do (including abominations like eating pork, shellfish, gold, etc..)! Salvatore John
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Here's another shining example of Heaven Sent's IQ and erudition.
Heaven Sent: Oh, boo, hoo. The non-believers rank on Christians and you don't expect us to do so in return! We stand for Jesus. What do you stand for besides NOTHING. Oh, I forgot satan the whimp liar and cheat, crying for centuries how he's going to fry in the eternal fires and get zapped out of permanently. As for my posting ... go back through the other articles and see what times and dates they were posted. I've already overstayed my stay on this bogus site. No need to try to educate the big egos that don't no a thing.
------–
"The big egos that don't no a thing"? Wow.
I surely want someone like this to tell me her interpretation of the Scriptures is the correct one.
Same thing Tom. What's the matter, you won't add you original post to how I responded? Why is that? Allowing only half the story works for you?
Wah, wah, wah. Cry on, you hypocrite. If your words don't speak for themselves, what does? No one here is fooled by your protestations, honey. You're nothing but a self-righteous twit who deems herself superior to all.
Tough noogies if you don't like being called on it in whatever way I choose.
I wonder, does anyone think THIS is what Jesus had in mind?
Heaven Sent:
Bobinnutter, I hope you realized that you just killed your son. Unless, you son rejects you the same way you reject Jesus. Then and only then, does your son live and his bozo father dies in his own carnal sins.
-----------------–
Can you imagine having this harridan for a mother? One can only hope she is unmarried and childless.
Oh, so cutting out all of Jesus teachings apply to what others write as well. I noticed you didn't put your original post in with my response. Just put my response in.
Are you going to whine now, Stink? Go blow it out your ear, dear. You ask for the treatment you get and deserve every bit of scorn you attract.
All I can say is I have lived a full life; have sampled all the fruits in the garden, now I have gallbladder disease. The pain is too much to bear. I must try and select someone that I feel will care about my health, instead of how much they can get out of me. For sure, it won't be any of you people, no dis-respect intended.
I am so sorry for your pain and suffering, garry. I hope you have loved ones around you who will care for you. People like Heaven Sent would be my last choice for a friend and I can't imagine what she must be like to her family members. I hope you don't have to suffer anyone like her.
"Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.---
To wit:
o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "
"Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
All I said was believe in something, believe in it all the way, never laughed at anyone.
Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Washington, D.C. as well as the District of Columbia all understand the const!tution and what those amendments mean for every U.S. citizen. If our elected officials actually do the job we voted them do and acknowledge the equal rights for all and not just the selective like the states mentioned have already then yes I think it is very bright.
Even if the bible does condemn it, so what? The bible condemns many things that are ignored and still done without a second thought, why should this be enforced by not everything else? Picking and choosing what you like to follow and what you don't is ridiculous and illogical.
Our const!tution is what really matters, it will always have the final say, over any religion or what any magical myth book claims.
Yes, thats a wonderful idea. Laugh at other peoples beliefs, and put your faith in the government, and the people that run it. Bright.
And what you and your ilk do is better, yeshua? Attempt to judge others' behavior by your own interpretation of God's word and consign them to h ell because that's what you think the Bible says? Dictate how others should live while ignoring the beam in your own eye? Spend your time here telling others they're not Christians instead of going out into the world and trying to BE like Christ instead of flapping your gums? Why should anyone bother to pay your beliefs any mind, when all they are is words on a page? Set an example and stop yapping about it. Do what Jesus commanded. It surely wasn't to sit on your chair and castigate others.
If you need a book to tell you what is right and wrong, you're probably beyond help anyway.
My take? Does it matter? The Bible also condones slavery and condemns sushi. I'm not likely to start practising one or stop eating the other.
I would think the Bible wouldn't hold any interest to an atheist. I really haven't much care about mythology myself...and if I believed the Bible to be mythology I might not even waste time reading discussions about a book I viewed as fictional.
That said...for those who do give the Bible validity then I have to say that the Bible seems to be pretty strongly in favor of one partner per person....the male female thing also seems big....butthe Bible is also really big into worrying about your own issues...and less worrying about someone elses issues. So I am not one to judge how God will respond...I just know about my isssues....and I have plenty to be going on with...most folks do...
So atheists are only interested in reading non-fiction? Gee, no one told me there was a law about that.
Magwah-
"I might not even waste time reading discussions about a book I viewed as fictional."
What, you've never been in a book club? It's fun discussing how unrealistic the characters and plot lines are. Same goes for the Bible.
Any article concerning christianity or the Bible brings out all the atheists trolls with their superior "I don't believe in fairy tales blah blah blah" drivel. If they don't believe, I wish they would find something they do believe in, and waste their time on that instead of the God they can't forget about, no matter how hard they try, it seems they can't stop reading about Him and talking about Him. Oh, and insulting those of us who do. I just scroll past them now. Easily done.
You "scroll past them. Easily done", huh? How is you reply to their posts, then? ESP?
Oh, yeah, here she is, Miss Dimbulb:
SadieSadie
Since my children are my children I have the right to teach them MY morals and beliefs. Do I fear that they will 'turn gay'? No, but I have a right to explain to my children the ways of the world.
Isn't it funny that because I don't see the world the way you do, that gives you the right to mock me. And I am in the wrong? I think that you need to realise that not everyone in the world sees the world through your eyes and that means that we are free to have our own thoughts and beliefs.
MY CHILDREN MY RIGHTS.
--------
What a freakin' moron. You can tell your spawn whatever you want, bozo, but if you send them to public school, your religious beliefs are NOT going to be followed there.
Get a clue, Sadie, Sadie, Stupid Lady: this isn't a theocracy, and your religion isn't the law. Children in a public school aren't going to be indoctrinated in Christianity and your view of morality. Too bad if that displeases you. Suck it up, buttercup.
As an atheist, I hope you might cease and desist, Tom. You are not presenting our side in the most intelligent light. "Sadie, Sadie, Stupid Lady" is what I would expect of Sadie or HeavenSent or Justina. Please don't stoop to their level.
Oh, blow it out YOUR ear, bub. I'm not on YOUR side, either. You're just as much of a azzwipe as they are.
Well Tom, Tom, the Tweaker Boy, I see that when you do up a bunch of meth, your favorite thing to do is sit at the computer and make a total fool of yourself. I would warn you that that stuff rots your brain, but it's obviously too late for that warning to do any good.
Aww, poor little Bobby. I'm female, over 50, and not in need of your approval, honey. You ASSUME I'm an atheist and "on your side." I have said nothing of the kind. You ASSUME I'm male because I picked a line from a nursery rhyme with a male name in it. You ASSUME I agree with you.
You know what they say about "assumptions".
I can't stand zealots of ANY stripe, atheists and believers alike. You are no better than Heaven's Stinker.
So Tom – Tom by her own admission is a woman over 50 who zealously attacks all zealots.
Tom Tom – 530 lbs. of froth-mouthed dysfunctional rage, buying her meth with her welfare money because she can't keep a job due to her poisonous personality. Spends her life abusing people online because she has no friends at all and no family that will come within a country mile of her.
Keep going, Tommy girl! I think you are hilarious!
No, honey, you don't. The fact that you're embarrassed by your inability to discern the character of a person by reading posts on a website shows in your need to respond to my every post. You can pretend you have a clue, but based on the inaccuracy of your guesses thus far, I wouldn't take your advice on what horse to bet on.
I am getting quite a bit of entertainment, though, from seeing how utterly ticked off you are at the fact that your admonitions that I toe the company line of the atheist are ineffectual. The atheists, like you, who get on here and attempt to tell others what to do and how to respond are just as odious as the holy rollers.
Now, Booby, do continue. Tell me more about how much I weigh and what I do for a living and so on. I can hardly wait. I command you to respond.
Don't get sucked in, Robert. "She" really does not write or act like a woman over 50. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son is playing the classic troll. Whatever he, she or it is, Tom is not worth another second of your attention.
How, precisely, does a woman over 50 write, honey? And just how do you know? Have you read the posts of all women over 50? Everywhere?
I hate to break it to you, but I am exactly what I said: I'm over 50, female, and in addition, I'm married, have a Master's Degree and have been working for well over 30 years, quite successfully. I'm sure it's painful for you to realize that you are wrong, but that's your problem.
So, I guess I was correct in using what others use to get a point across.
You're all guilty of the same tactics I used.
I wonder about the dipwad who was whining about her child being 'taught that families with two mommies or two daddies was okay" would prefer he child be told? Maybe she'd like the school to hold formal stoning ceremonies on the playground at recess so they can put the children of such couples to death for being sinners.
What a hoot. You people are beyond disgusting.
Carnal thinking can not comprehend His spiritual teachings. Taking scriptures out of context or just reading one passage without the others, does not allow a person to learn the lesson Jesus is teaching. All humans are His children. Was Jesus talking about a small child or adult child that doesn't want to live in harmony with neighbors in community? Parents are responsible for what their children actions until they reach the age of responsibility/consent. Adult children of God's, over the age of consent are responsible for their actions.
Jesus was gay, too! John 13:23-25 19:26 21:20 Mark 7:15 14:52
Centurions where know for having gay servants, so Jesus approved of the gay life style. Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:2
No where in the bible can you prove that Jesus was not gay! Condemn gays and you condemn Jesus too!
Dear Chris....there is only one valid point you have made; Jesus told us not to condemn (Judge). The rest of your arguement is really, really funny, but not helpful to your cause.
A more interesting point is who the youth was who was following Jesus in Mark 14:51
"A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him,"
Intriguing, eh?
Oops, I left out the best part, verse 52
"But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked."
You only believe what Jesus is by processing what you mind believes on the carnal level. Jesus' teaching are spiritual and if you read, comprehend His spiritual teachings to your life, you too, will see His truth. The more you study His truth, the more of His wisdom is revealed.
Wow! How about this gem? Are you proud of this follower, Lord Jesus?
HeavenSent
Threat you little twerp. You'd chit in your pants if you ever met me. Second, those idiots that protest are from your team of non-believers. No true Christian would ever disrespect our men and women who serve or served in the military. That's a bunch of propaganda from your side. Not ours. As far as all the bashing of so called Christians, again, they were plants that your team put in there so people hated Jesus truth. Guess what, your side looses, Jesus' side wins.
See you when you fly to where I live. Punk.
I think you protest to much when you get dished what you dished out. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean to be a wimp and take your abuse, verbally or physically. Turning the other cheek means to stop teaching Jesus truth to someone who has no eyes to see or ears to hear, hence, refusing to learn the Truth of His teachings. I chose to be a salty Christian to level out the playing field.
Can anyone imagine that this is what Christ had in mind? Is THIS Christ-like?
HeavenSent
Peggy, speak for yourself you seed of the demon satan.
I'll say Hi to your relatives at the zoo next time I take some children to go feed your ancestors.
Get a brain, then when you do. USE IT.
Makes my skin crawl, especially the 'take some children to the zoo' part.
Same as what I wrote above ....
Well those fairy tales that you call Jesus' truth ...taught your ancestors, which in turn taught the next generation to generation the following:
Right versus wrong.
Good versus Bad.
Righteous versus unrighteous.
Jesus' Truth versus satan's Lies.
Jesus's teachings of truth to learn to how to take responsibility for your thoughts/beliefs, words, actions versus satan's lies teaching you not to take responsibility for your thoughts/beliefs, actions.
Basics learned to live by versus continued in depth studying to live by.
Free will. Choosing which to live by. Free will to be confused about a subject you learned the basics of or refuse to learn and not study or free will to understand all that He teaches. Christians study His teachings for a lifetime because our views change as we age and experience life. What we read in His scriptures at 13, 20, 30, 40 etc. changes as we chronologically age and read the same scriptures, Jesus unveils more of His teachings. The more we read and comprehend His truth, the more He reveals His truth. Church is community gathering to hear a priest/pastor, rabbi, etc. what Jesus taught and to continue applying His righteous teachings to our lives. Community of church goers is to be with like minded people who study and apply Jesus' truth to our lives and help each other with His teachings.
You want to believe you came from apes. Christians believe Jesus truth that He created us in His image. Jesus isn't an ape, therefore, Christians didn't come from an Ape.
@heavenSent, I have a burning question for you? Since you know everything about Adam & Eve and all.....Did they have bellybuttons?
Ahahhahhaha!
Heaven Stink is nothing but a shrill, shrieking banshee. She can't stand it when her hypocrisy is pointed out to her. Here she still is, hours after I posted originally, castigating anyone who questions her authority on the real meaning of love and life.
I just adore watching her immolate herself.
lol Tom! NO really I want to know what HS thinks about this! Can you figure out where I am coming from?? 😉
Of course. But Heaven's Stinker doesn't.
I think you can dish it out but you can't take when the dishing is put back on your plate. Turn the other cheek means to stop trying to teach someone who has no eyes to see or ears to hear His truth, hence, refuses to comprehend the Truth He teaches. It doesn't mean stand their like a wimp and allow another to pummel us physically or verbally.
With a sagging rump like that, looks like "HeavenSent" has had a few too many dishes herself. And she has lastworditis too.
David.... nice misquote. Remember that later in time there was this change order that came down... something about "call nothing I have made unclean".....
George Miron ...although the original attis story is from 1200 bc, the "resurrection" portion of the story was added ca. 200ad.
Who copied whom?
"Who copied whom?"
I don't know... when were the gospels concocted??
Maybe....look who is quoting scripture...it isn't me
Mr Sniffles, of all the responses, your's at least was thought out. Let's start with the Templeton Foundation study claiming to prove the inefectivness of prayer. Show me where that study had a control group (required for any study). Show me how the data was not corrupted by uncontrollable variables. (The authors admit they could not prevent data corruption) Explain how anyone can publish such a conclusion knowing they had corrupted data. Hawkings is often mis-quoted as saying he can create the universe from nothing. Yet he admits he has to have one pre-existing force (gravity) to make his "theory" viable. Let's start from there.
Actually, the Templeton STEP study did have a control group, which they list as "Group 2". Group 1 was unsure if they would receive prayers but did, Group 2 was unsure but did not, and Group 3 was sure and did. Group 3 had the highest complication/fatality rate, and the control group (#2) had the lowest, though all were within the range of statistical variability. In other words, while the study actually showed that prayer is slightly detrimental to your well-being, the differences in the groups was withing the study's expected rate of error.
I could find no information on corrupted data for the study, but logically the corruption that you speak of can really only mean that some people who said they would not pray for the patients in group 2 actually did. Perhaps some who said they prayed did not as well, but you end up in the same place – the results are essentially identical between the groups. Prayer did not prove to be effective. Remember, the Templeton Foundation is strongly pro-religious/pro-Christianity, so their findings would tend to be corrupted in favor of the efficacy of prayer.
I do not recall ever seeing Stephen Hawkings misquoted here in any way, much less the way you say. And it has no relevance to the existence or non-existence of God. Gravity is not a deity, it is a natural force acting according to natural laws.
To have a "control" group you have to have a data-set that:
1 did not recieve prayer from the study prayer partners.
2 did not pray for themselves
3 did recieve prayer from friends, family or co-workers
To be more specific, you needed 3 control groups of atheists to juxtapose the ones to whom prayer was mentioned. Those people must not have prayer mentioned or given.
You asked where the study group got contaminated??? Any
" At enrollment, most subjects did expect to receive prayers from others regardless of their participation in the study. We also recognize that subjects may have prayed for themselves. Thus our study subjects may have been exposed to a large amount of non-study prayer and this could have made it more difficult to detect the effects of prayer provided by the intercessors"
I would be fired for asking for money to pay for a study this bogus.
Gravity is a force....but to need a pre-existing something destroys the validity of the "No God Needed" arguement.
I'm afraid the control group used is still relevant. The fact that they got less prayer but did better is entirely significant, as is is the worse results of those who did get prayer. In broad concepts, the potential corruption has little impact on the results, which is that prayer had no impact on the rates of complication or fatality. Moreover, the bias of the Templeton Foundation should have resulted in a study in their favor, but it did not. Indeed, the staunchly pro-religion Templeton Foundation would have quite a lot os reason to cast doubt on their own study, as it proved the opposite of what they wanted to find.
The three groups of atheists are irrelevant as control, as the complication/fatality rate of the studied group was absolutely inline with the already known general complication/fatality rate for that heart condition. Your criticisms really do not hold up.
Changing subjects, the existence of gravity prior to the Big Bang does not in any way prove or disprove the existence of any god. It's really a strange argument to make – remember, time does not start at the Big Bang. Something preceded it, by it is very difficult and theoretical to speculate as to what it was. I find it quite easy to accept that gravity pre-existed the Big Bang. Basically, I cannot see how this somehow proves the existence of any god to you.
airwx, keep on hiding your "god" in gaps in our current knowledge.... They grow smaller everyday.
Having had this type of surgery I understand from a different prospective.
The issue is that there was no group to whom no prayer was mentioned, and no prayer from ANY source recieved. That is the only way to have a true control. Otherwise you cannot draw a conclusion as to the effectiveness of prayer because you did not block all prayer sources. Its like saying "I don't know which molecule of chocolate milk is which after mixing two batches of chocolate milk"
The Hawkings issue is that having to need a pre-existing anything means that you cannot exclude a di-ety from the cause of creation. I would however dispute that time may or may not have existed before the big bang. My interpretation of Gen 1:1 indicates that God insti...tuted time, spacial relationships and what we call the "Laws of Nature" by speaking them into existence (created not made). Your point that gravity could pre-exist the big bang then could be correct from both of our perspectives.
Tommas....The gaps in our "current" knowledge grow smaller....I find it hilarious that you jump in with an admission that you don't have all the answers. What if I told you that I believe Douglas Adams was right in his book when he wrote "The answer to the ultimate question is 42"?
Apparently you did not read my responses, for they answered your latest comments. I see no point in going around in circles. As to your having had this kind of surgery, that is unfortunate but it is also irrelevant to the matter at hand (glad you got through it, though).
You cannot exclude a deity from anything, much less creation, because it is absolutely impossible to prove the non-existence something which does not exist. The existence or non-existence of gravity prior to the big bang is irrelevant to the question of whether a god in any form exists.
I'm going to let this drop now. I have defended my position, the readers can accept or reject it, and the last word is yours. I persoanlly am not at all convinced or changed by your positions. Indeed, I suspect you have no education beyond high school, have never read any work by Stephen Hawkings, and are just repeating things you have heard from others. Which is what you criticized atheists for when you started this.
Good night, Mr. Sniffles. it was a pleasure speaking with you.
I would be a fool to say that we have all the answers, but an even greater fool makes them up without any evidence.
@ Tommas
The only way you can learn anything new is by knowing and admitting that you don't have all the answers. I wouldn't worry about Airwx. The reason why science exists to begin with is because we don't have answers. I can't think of a more foolish philosophy than one that thinks it knows everything.
You will only truly move towards understanding the universe if your goal is simply to understand the universe. If proving your hypothesis right is a higher priority than understanding the truth, your philosophy is deeply lacking.
It seems to me that Airwx wants to prove his god exists rather than attempt to answer the deep questions of the universe he brings up.
To all the atheist commentators... I really wish you had something better to offer than insults and a total lack of understanding of the difference between temporal and spiritual matters. Your comments show a pattern...deny, insult, accuse and run. Far too many times I see the same tired, discredited arguements made by atheists including misquotes of philosophers, scientists and scientific "studies. I challenge you..no more cutting and pasting from your desktop or notepad.
If you wish to run your life according to a bunch of ancient fairy tales, go right ahead. However keep in mind that your beliefs are nothing more than myths, with no more validity than the old myths of, for instance, Attis – he of the virgin birth that was celebrated on December 25th and who was buried and resurrected some time in late March... Sound familiar?
Jesus said that he "comes not to change the law" so Leviticus 11:10-19 – (6) "But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you."
So, the above still applies and is an ABOMINATION. Do you picket Red Lobster for promoting such sinfulness?
Nice straw man argument there, airwx. Completely wrong, of course, but straw man arguments are used when the person commenting cannot address the real issues at hand.
Prove God exists. Prove your God is the correct God and that all the other Gods are wrong. Point out which atheist arguments are discredited, and why. Show me places here where philosophers, scientists, and scientific studies were misquoted.
airwx,
"I challenge you..no more cutting and pasting from your desktop or notepad."
Does that mean we will be having no more Bible quotes either, then? Hooray!
I just don't believe in god that's all. And I find it ridiculous to be mind controlled by an invisible, no proof of, fairy in the sky. How dare someone tell me or my children that we will burn in he l l just because we question an invisible mans existance! Religion is scary stuff, turns normal people into haters of other people. It's usefullness is outdated and not needed in modern society. They needed answers to questions so they wrote a book, The bible, big deal. We have science now.
@Airwx
Dude, all atheists ask for is good evidence. Theists can't produce any. We aren't against your evidence personally, we're just against bad evidence, and that's all theists have ever been able to produce.
To put it into terms you will understand- you are an idiot- all you are doing is judging others because you don't agree with their God & American given right to have a free will- shut up and stop making a fool of yourself. P.S. I be judged for calling you an idiot and fool but it was worth it- just be an example for Christ and not the judge that is God's department!
Bravo, matt.
Well those fairy tales that you call Jesus' truth ...taught your ancestors, which in turn taught the next generation to generation the following:
Right versus wrong.
Good versus Bad.
Righteous versus unrighteous.
Jesus' Truth versus satan's Lies.
Jesus's teachings of truth to learn to how to take responsibility for your thoughts/beliefs, words, actions versus satan's lies teaching you not to take responsibility for your thoughts/beliefs, actions.
Basics learned to live by versus continued in depth studying to live by.
Free will. Choosing which to live by. Free will to be confused about a subject you learned the basics of or refuse to learn and not study or free will to understand all that He teaches. Christians study His teachings for a lifetime because our views change as we age and experience life. What we read in His scriptures at 13, 20, 30, 40 etc. changes as we chronologically age and read the same scriptures, Jesus unveils more of His teachings. The more we read and comprehend His truth, the more He reveals His truth. Church is community gathering to hear a priest/pastor, rabbi, etc. what Jesus taught and to continue applying His righteous teachings to our lives. Community of church goers is to be with like minded people who study and apply Jesus' truth to our lives and help each other with His teachings.
“Community of church goers is to be with like minded people” That’s interesting because if you look at the definition of cult it is very similar. “a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal.” The problem with being around like-minded people is you do not grow mentally or intellectually since they will always agree with what you believe without ever realizing you're wrong.