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Saving Thomas Jefferson's scrapbook Bible
Smithsonian paper conservator Janice Stagnitto Ellis displays the cover page from Thomas Jefferson's Bible.
March 11th, 2011
08:52 AM ET

Saving Thomas Jefferson's scrapbook Bible

By Sally Holland, CNN

Thomas Jefferson literally cut passages on the chronology and moral teachings of Jesus out of several Bibles and glued them into what historians have termed the Jefferson Bible.

The founding father completed the book that he called "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" during his retirement in 1820.

Conservationists at the National Museum of American History are currently working to preserve the almost-200-year-old book so it can go on display in November.

Paper conservator Janice Stagnitto Ellis said the main problem is the way the book was bound. Over time, the paper has become less flexible, and bending the brittle pages caused the paper to tear, she said.

"Without doing modifications to the binding, we could open the book [to] about a 30-degree angle before the paper would be required to bend, which it couldn't do," she said. "It became un-exhibitable."

The goal is to display the book opened to a 90-degree angle.

The 86-page book was bound in high-end red Moroccan leather with gold tooling. Inside, passages from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in English, French, Latin and Greek are pasted side by side so Jefferson could compare the various translations of the story of the life of Jesus.

"He puts them in chronological order and ... extracts those parts that can be identified through reason and thought," museum curator Harry Rubenstein said. "So out goes the miracles, out goes the resurrections and what remains is what he thinks is the life and morals of Jesus, the true teachings."

Jefferson used six different "source" Bibles to create his version: two in English, two in French and two that included both Greek and Latin. He needed two of each so that if he cut a passage out of one side of a page, he would still have the back side of that page in case he wanted to include a passage from there.

A curator handles one of Jefferson's source Bibles.

The museum also has the two English "source" Bibles which show the cutout holes of the scripture Jefferson included in his version.

Jefferson also changed the grammar. On one page, he apparently didn't like the number of prepositions in a verse from Matthew that started, "For as in the days that were before the flood ..." He cut out the word "as," changing the scripture to "For in the days that were before the flood ..."

The Smithsonian acquired the book from Jefferson's great-granddaughter in 1895 for $400.

In 1904, Congress authorized printed photocopies of the book that were given to all of its incoming members. This practice ended in the 1950s when they ran out of copies.

Currently, preservationists have removed the binding for the Jefferson Bible and are doing digital scans of all of the pages of the book to be included as part of the display later this year.

They are looking at various ways to provide more flexibility in the binding.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church and state • DC • Politics • United States

soundoff (657 Responses)
  1. The_Mick

    How cowardly of the article to dance around that fact that "out go the miracles" because Jefferson didn't believe they happened or that Jesus was God. He did believe in the social ideas, which is what he was isolating

    Jefferson hoped all Americans would eventually become some form of Unitarians that took the best teachings, as they applied to the good of secular society, from every religion.

    March 11, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
    • Frogist

      @The_Mick: It is funny that people do gloss over that point. Maybe for some, the mere ownership of a bible, means one automatically has to be a believer. Obviously, that isn't so. I own a bible, a qu'ran, a bhagvad gita... it doesn't mean I am a believer in gods or that the incidents within those texts actually occurred. But I can acknowledge, like Jefferson did, that there is worth in those stories. I really find it unfortunate also that some believers go to the other extreme of that spectrum, that Jefferson was worthless or questionable as a human being because he took out all the extraneous matter to find the kernel of wisdom that they acknowledge is in there. To them he cannot truly be a good man because he removed the deification side of Jesus. The Christian extreme bias that a person is evil simply because they don't think Jesus was any more than a good example of how humanity should treat each other, is a position non-believers know too well. Those believers have subverted the message for the messenger.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:57 pm |
  2. Suz

    First of all – let me just say that I am Jewish and a devout believer in G_d, and I bought a copy of this text after seeing something about it, I think on the History Channel. Anyway – whatever you believe, you have to admit that it's really quite genius, the way he did this. He was a very intelligent and thoughtful man. Not perfect, true – but I wouldn't have minded having some conversation over a few beers with him back in the day. I appreciate intelligence and rationality in people, and those were obviously among his stronger suits.

    March 11, 2011 at 2:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Suz, do you stay with reading the OT or have you read the NT. If you read both, you will notice that Jesus is PERFECT and He wants all his children to love and follow Him so they can be perfect too.

      Now, what a child of God does with His truth, is up to them (free will), but everyone needs to know that your soul depends on knowing His truth by reading the Bible, comprehending it, and then abiding (applying) His truth to their lives to produce His righteous truth in all thoughts/beliefs, writings, actions as He instructs us to live while house in human form.

      Amen.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
  3. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    It is amusing to read these boards and see Heaven's Stinker here, particularly when she claimed she did more for others in a week than anyone could imagine! I guess she must do it whilst sitting on her rump behind a computer screen.

    March 11, 2011 at 2:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, Tom, I can tell it really stung that Jesus' truth doesn't approve of your bad behavior (sin) and that I was the one that pointed it out to you. Too bad Tom, Tom. You own your own bad behavior.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
  4. Cebolla13

    From a scrapbooker's point of view, I think this is very interesting. It's neat that one of our nation's founders chose to spend his time putting a special book together, for himself, but also probably hoping that people would look at it long after he was gone.

    March 11, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • NL

      In a sense what Jefferson was doing is exactly like what a great many Christians actually do. They may not literally take scissors to their Bibles, but they do pick and choose which parts they like and ignore the rest, it seems. Discard the dietary laws, but keep the other lists of abominations. Say that Jesus replaced the Old Law, but keep the Commandments, even though Jesus himself simplified them. Why advocate for laws to be passed against gay behavior, but not against adultery, one of the Commandments?

      Jesus said nothing against slavery, or gays, but he did disapprove of divorce. So Christians got rid of slavery, continued to persecute gays, and freely practice divorce. Usury is sinful according to the Bible, but how many Christians avoid banks? God created freedom of choice, but conservative Christians wish to remove that choice from women seeking abortions, and gays wishing to marry. Romans 12:17 states "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone." but conservative Christians usually support the US waging war upon it's enemies, even without the approval of the international commnity. Pick and choose all the way around.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:14 am |
  5. Maybe

    CW,
    "The ask us to show proof but they show none as well."

    What would you like atheists to show proof of?

    March 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      CW has difficulty figuring out how debate works. His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor, IYKWIM.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • NL

      In a way, every new scientific discovery is a proof that we're headed towards a time when we don't need God as an explanation any more.

      Ironically, the folks like HeavenSent won't be satisfied until we actually have literally looked everywhere for God which, of course, would make us omniscient and as powerful as God is supposed to be, thus proving that God (us) really does exist, right?

      March 11, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, after the false teachers of God's truth leading His flock astray are destroyed, next comes those that believe themselves to be their own mini-gods. Stay arrogant and you'll surely be on that ride, down, down, down.

      Amen.

      March 12, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, Tom, you're not the sharpest blade in the drawer so why keep knocking others who are in Awe of Jesus' truth. Just because you don't have eyes to see, nor ears to hear, doesn't mean others need to join the likes of you. Period aka AMEN!!!

      March 12, 2011 at 10:51 am |
    • NL

      HeavenSent_
      What guarantee can you offer people that you are not one of these "false teachers of God's truth" that you are referring to? What if you are the one leading His flock astray down a path of compassionless self-righteousness? I will gladly admit that I may be wrong now. I think I was wrong before, when I believed without question, so I am not deluding myself into thinking that my mind may never change again. You, however, appear steadfast in you faith, in your absolute certainty that you are right and that people who disagree with you are damned. So, if you want to see arrogance perhaps you may want to begin by looking in a mirror, eh?

      March 12, 2011 at 11:32 am |
    • Observer

      @HeavenSent, guess you missed this part of the Bible.

      – Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery Hell." - Jesus

      March 12, 2011 at 11:57 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, I'm not a preacher, just a Christian that reads and studies the Bible and knows most of His truth. No one gets to know ALL of His truth, only God.

      False preachers/teachers are those that stroke man's ego with 1 or 2 of Jesus' scriptures then go on and on ... about what man wants to hear instead of all of Jesus' truth what needs to be heard. They use 1 or 2 scriptures during their time on stage to make a buck. It would take about 800 years to hear about 80% of the Bible with the way these phony teachers preach.

      As for ego. I have admitted in former posts (different articles) that I have to muster up ego in order to blog on this or any site. If I didn't, I wouldn't blog at all. I'd be perfectly happy with living in spiritual thought as Jesus teaches. I do so, in order that Christians who actually read and study the Bible can have a voice over all the twisting and contorting of Jesus' truth that is out in the world can be debunked.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, Jesus also told us this Truth of His ...Matthew 7:6.

      March 12, 2011 at 3:54 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "I'm not a preacher, just a Christian that reads and studies the Bible and knows most of His truth. No one gets to know ALL of His truth, only God."
      I would never as.sume that a preacher had know more about the Bible than a lay person but, as a lay person, you still seem to be insisting that you know "most of His truth". Most, but not all. So, that leaves an admitted gap even in your overwhelming confidence where you admit that you can be completely off base, right?

      Off base, driven by ego, and compelled to shine your own version of "His truth" for the benefit of other Christians. Now, isn't this basically what you accuse the Christians who you consider to be in error of doing? I've read your posts and you don't draw upon a very wide repertoire of verses either. All you really ever do is shake a finger of condemnation against sinners. Where is the message of Jesus' compassion, acceptance and love? Ask yourself if you are truly doing the man's teachings justice, and you admit to doing this blogging to fuel your own ego, which is as much for your own self-benefit as those you detract doing it to make a buck.

      Contrary to what you may believe of atheist motives, I actually have no interest in getting rid of religion. Religion has been around for far too long to disappear overnight, and I get along fine with moderate Christians. What I am interested in is getting rid of the bad religion out there. As Karen Armstrong is quoted as saying

      "There are some forms of religion that are bad, just as there's bad cooking or bad art or bad s.ex, you have bad religion too."

      Sorry buddy, but I've sampled your religion and it's pretty bitter.

      March 12, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
  6. CW

    I see all the non-believers and atheist have had their rants.

    Let me address on thing though.....Christians are not a VAST minority as one person said. Second no one knows if Jefferson was a total chrisitan or not but what I take from this is that he did believe in God. As for the take that he created his own bible...I would say that all christians have passages that we love reading and in those we find them to be very comforting in times of need.

    I agree with Fred's post that its hard to take any Atheist or non-believer seriously....They are just plain nonsense. The ask us to show proof but they show none as well...guess its a stalmate...O well we will all see who was right and who was wrong on Judgement day.

    March 11, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • False Reality

      "I agree with Fred's post that its hard to take any Atheist or non-believer seriously....They are just plain nonsense. The ask us to show proof but they show none as well...guess its a stalmate...O well we will all see who was right and who was wrong on Judgement day."

      No..Atheism is a statement saying your Hypothesis.."There is a God" is not proven. There is no burned of proof on Atheists, it is on Theists. Atheism isn't a belief..it is a non belief. It is not a stalemate, we've made our move, we've been waiting for Theists to make their move for some time, but they keep stalling whenever we ask for proof.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Evan

      False Reality, "There is a God" is not proven"

      Read my above comment (the really long one)

      March 11, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
    • Medardus

      You can't prove a negative.

      To say that there is a supernatural creator of all things is an extraordinary claim. To back it up you require extraordinary evidence. To date, no one has produced such evidence.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Evan

      Medardus, proof has been given, but atheists refuse to believe it. Got gave us the Bible so that we may know what His meaning for us is. Atheists refuse to believe it. How can God make himself any more obvious?

      And to claim that "all we know is all there is" is not only extraordinary, but arrogant. How can flawed, finite humans such as you and I fully grasp the concept of God?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:50 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Evan

      This is the last time I'm going to call you on your fallacy.

      "God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible exists because God gave it to us."

      Circular reasoning. Look it up.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Medardus, proof has been given, but atheists refuse to believe it. Got gave us the Bible so that we may know what His meaning for us is. Atheists refuse to believe it. How can God make himself any more obvious?

      And to claim that "all we know is all there is" is not only extraordinary, but arrogant. How can flawed, finite humans such as you and I fully grasp the concept of God?"

      The bible wasn't divinely written by God, it was written by people..much of it 30 years or so after the death of Jesus at least. This is not proof of the existance of God anymore than Aesop's fables are proof of talking foxes. You seem to be claiming hubris on the part of Athesits, and this much may be true.

      But I do not believe in any Golden Cows, everything should be questioned, evaluated and figured out through reason. If there was a God, he would be responsible for my brain and would want me to use it to evaluate the world. If he was to punish me for using the tools that he gave me, I would say that would be an extremely short sighted and foolish God.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, CW, I can just see you and Heaven's Stinker rubbing your little paws in anticipation of watching everyone you hate roasting on a spit in Satan's oven.

      What a nut.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • NL

      CW-
      "Christians are not a VAST minority as one person said."
      Since when is majority belief a guarantee that something is actually truthful? Once upon a time pretty much everyone believed that the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. Remember also that, before Jesus came along, the absolute majority would never have imagined the Hebrew God as a trinity, but supposedly according to Christian beliefs, God always was. New developments have a proven history of overturning traditional beliefs held by majorities, right? So, do you really want to argue that the majority opinion is always the right one?

      March 11, 2011 at 2:14 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,
      "How can God make himself any more obvious?"

      Well now, wouldn't an omniscient and omnipotent "God" know how and be able to do that?

      March 11, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • Evan

      He would, but he would also have to take away our free will. God cannot contradict Himself, and if He took away our free will, He would be contradicting Himself. God has given us so much to prove His existence, but He won't force Himself on us. Ultimately, their is nobody to blame for your unbelief but yourselves.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • Evan

      Medardus, I did not say the God of the Bible exists because the Bible says so. I said the senses we have, the logic and reasoning skills we possess, our moral obligations, and even science allow us to realize God's existence. Please don't jump to conclusions.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      "He would, but he would also have to take away our free will. God cannot contradict Himself,"

      So, leaving an ambiguous little trail of breadcrumbs, some of which lead people right off of a cliff, is the best he could come up with?

      March 11, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH." Isaiah knew in 700 B.C. the earth is round.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:58 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      Try playing baseball with a circle. The writers of the Bible had a word for sphere (and ball) – they did not use it.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:02 pm |
    • Beth

      Magic you are correct.

      A circle is not a ball or sphere or an egg-shaped object. A circle is a flat round surface. this describes the shape of something like a quarter. circular and flat.

      If Isaiah had intended to speak of the earth as a globe, he would probably have used the word he used in 22:18 (dur), meaning 'ball.

      March 15, 2011 at 11:14 am |
  7. Peggy

    I am not a fundamentalist Christian ... In fact, a fundie would probably say I am not a Christian at all. But I am also not an athiest. I don't understand why athiests on this and other message boards have to be so sure that people who believe in any God are idiots, fools, etc. I don't quetion others' faith. That's their business and their right. That's the great thing about living in this country.

    March 11, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
    • False Reality

      I would agree that anyone who says a Christian is an idiot and a fool for just being a Christian is just plain wrong. And I've yet to see it posted here, and if it was I'd agree that it is wrong. However, challenging someone's beliefs is not the same as calling them an "idiot" or a "fool". If you someone was to tell you they believed in fairies, although you may take the passive approach and say that's their business.

      But if hundresds of thousands of people believed in fairies, lobbied in politics, and clammered for the equal teaching of fairies in schools you might be of a different opinion.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
    • Silver Chair

      @ False Reality

      You wrote: "And I've yet to see it posted here, and if it was I'd agree that it is wrong."

      Really? Haven't seen the vitriolic, condescending name calling by atheists? Then you haven't been paying attention.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:28 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Really? Haven't seen the vitriolic, condescending name calling by atheists? Then you haven't been paying attention."

      Again, I apologize for that behavior it is not acceptable. Sometimes during debate people get heated and say inappropriate things.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Evan

      False Reality, you are declaring that you have done wrong by getting angry. For evil to exist, good must exist also. This good comes from God.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • False Reality

      "False Reality, you are declaring that you have done wrong by getting angry."

      I didn't get angry..I apologized if anyone was offended.

      "For evil to exist, good must exist also. This good comes from God."

      In order to make this statement, you must first prove that such a God exsists.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
    • JohnR

      @peggy It's pretty rich how people claim a right not to have their faith challenged because it's supposedly "just their own private business". When people go around claiming that America is a Christian nation and make it plain as day that that means for them that their moral precepts should be imposed with the force of law, that is NOT a private matter. One of the arguments that the "Christian nationalists" always make is that the country was founded on Christian principles, when in fact many of the founders held beliefs that were about as far from any Christian orthodoxy as you could safely be back in those days. This article reminds of that and it is a matter of considerable significance to underscore it.

      By the way, I am not an atheist. I'm not even a true agnostic. I would say I have animist inclinations, but enough intellectual integrity to admit that I can't fully pull apart where considered belief ends and sheer hope begins. And I will never try to bully anyone into accepting my beliefs. The fact that I so often find myself siding with atheists in these sorts of forums speaks volumes about which side I perceive true intergrity on. There have indeed been some abusive and lots of silly to screamingly stupid posts by atheists around here, but for the most part, they've been the voice of reason, intelligence and self restraint.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:50 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Evan

      Seriously, take a course in logic. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy.

      "False Reality, you are declaring that you have done wrong by getting angry. For evil to exist, good must exist also. This good comes from God."

      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

      Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

      Is he both able and willing? Then why is there evil?

      Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • JohnR

      @Evan The god of the bible is anything but good.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
    • NL

      JohnR-
      Which god of the bible? It mentions several in addition to YHWH. Baal, for example, is mentioned as a god not to be worshipped. Remember that the first Commandment makes no claim that God is the only real god there is. It just says that he's jealous of other gods. So, why would God be jealous of other gods if they weren't real? That's as silly as atheists being angry at a God they don't believe is real either, right?

      March 12, 2011 at 12:20 am |
  8. Fred

    Well, I see the atheists have arrived en masse to a religion-based topic. Nothing new there.
    I see they have some sort of innate need to try and convince others to believe as they do (which is the same thing they accuse believers of). They spew hate and engage in name-calling (which is the same thing they accuse believers of). They try to explain the Bible even though they do not know what they are talking about (which is the same thing they accuse believers of). It is hard for me to take atheists seriously. Maybe if they weren't such hypocrites about it (which is the same thing they accuse believers of).

    March 11, 2011 at 1:07 pm |
    • Evan

      Yes, atheists ultimately cannot live their lives consistently. Why are atheists so defensive? If they are truly atheists, they have nothing to defend. Atheists say "We define what is right or wrong". By that philosophy, I could hold a pot of boiling water above a puppy's head (forgive me if this image disturbs you) and an atheist would certainly tell me to stop. But, by their own philosophy, they can't, because what if I think it is right? They call the Bible a bronze-age book that supports beating your wife. First off, they are declaring that beating your wife is evil, which contradicts their philosophy on the source of morality. Second, they have clearly never read the Bible (no, the first 10 chapters of Genesis do not count). Atheists reject religion simply because they refuse to humble themselves.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
    • False Reality

      Ironic that this just came full circle and your post is essentially a statement that Atheists do nothing but spew hate and engage in name calling, thereby doing the exact same thing you claim they are doing.

      The reality is that Atheists post on a Belief Blog because it is a place to challenge the conceptions of Religion which we feel are a detriment to human society by proporting magical thinking. It is a place of opinion and anyone with one is free to make a statement. If you would like to challenge any of the actual facts made than you are free to do so as well,; otherwise you are simply lashing out anyone who doesn't share the same opinion as you.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
    • Silver Chair

      @ False Reality

      Pot, meet kettle.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:25 pm |
    • Evan

      Contradiction, False Reality. By declaring that you witness evil in the world, you are also declaring that good must also exist. That good comes from God.

      Is religion a plague, or are religious people a plague? I'm not sure how statments such as "Love one another" (John 13:34) and "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) start wars. Religion should end wars. The problem is we are sinners, and we God gives us the key to eternal life, we tend to abuse it, myself included. Biblical Christianity is much different than the Christianty people see today. Please do not attack Christianity until after you have read the Bible.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Yes, atheists ultimately cannot live their lives consistently. Why are atheists so defensive? If they are truly atheists, they have nothing to defend. Atheists say "We define what is right or wrong". By that philosophy, I could hold a pot of boiling water above a puppy's head (forgive me if this image disturbs you) and an atheist would certainly tell me to stop. But, by their own philosophy, they can't, because what if I think it is right? They call the Bible a bronze-age book that supports beating your wife. First off, they are declaring that beating your wife is evil, which contradicts their philosophy on the source of morality. Second, they have clearly never read the Bible (no, the first 10 chapters of Genesis do not count). Atheists reject religion simply because they refuse to humble themselves."

      This is so backwards I don't even know where to start. Atheists are claiming the world isn't real..they are claiming that their is not sufficient proof to believe in any Gods. This does not mean that morality no longer exsistsl; in fact when you start realizing there is not afterlife, THIS life starts having A LOT more meaning.

      This is why it is wrong to hold boiling water over a puppies head, or not beat your wife..because we all SHARE this life. If the only thing that prevents you from beating your wife or scorching an innocent puppy to death is fear of HELL, then there is something seriously wrong with you.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Contradiction, False Reality. By declaring that you witness evil in the world, you are also declaring that good must also exist. That good comes from God."

      Completely inconsistent..you inserted God as the bringer of Good, First you must prove he exsists. The bible is not proof of anything, I've read Greek Myths as well it does not mean Zeus exsists.

      Secondly I never stated I believe in evil you made that up. Evil is not the same thing as immorality. Evil is a tag we put on an action, it is not proof of God or the Devil or of Demons or Boogy Men any more than my missing socks are proof that gnomes steal them.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • Evan

      "Atheists are claiming the world isn't real...because we all SHARE this life."

      Enough said. If the world isn't real, than life isn't real. Nor are morals, nor am I, nor are you. If nothing exists, why does anything matter? If nothing matters, what purpose is their to existence? How did "something" come from nothing? You atheists cannot explain this.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • Evan

      False Reality, " I never stated I believe in evil you made that up"

      You said "The reality is that Atheists post on a Belief Blog because it is a place to challenge the conceptions of Religion which we feel are a detriment to human society by proporting magical thinking"

      I did? If the world isn't real, why does religion matter? By declaring that "Religion is a detriment", you are declaring there is a greater good mankind can come to. You are declaring there is good, and therefore God. I'm sorry, my friend, but you cannot live consistently using moral subjectivism.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Medardus

      @ Evan

      Qutoe mine much? "Atheists are claiming the world isn't real.." looks like a typo to me. The rest of his sentence doesn't make any sense grammatically unless it's "Atheists aren't claiming the world isn't real.."

      "How did "something" come from nothing? You atheists cannot explain this."

      Correct, we can't. We are, however, getting closer to that answer everyday in the fields of astrophysics, cosmology, etc. The best you can come up with is "Goddidit."

      March 11, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
    • Evan

      Medardus, maybe you are getting closer, but you will never get there. Ultimately, even if you found undeniable prove for how the universe was created, you would fail to explain why the universe was created. The universe does not have to exist, but it does because someone, whom we call God, had the will to create it.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      We do not know the answer to your questions... yet. We are working on it. Until then, the default, fall-back, end-of-discussion, "a god did it so quit searching", is not acceptable.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Evan

      Circular reasoning does not a good argument make.

      Good does not equal God.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Evan

      Good does equal God because our morals are based on God's character.

      You cannot live consistently using moral subjectivism. If you did, then you could not call Hitler, Stalin, terrorists evil, nor could you call Martin Luther King Jr., firefighters, Gandhi, Mother Theresa "good". You may deny it, but our morals are not subjective, they are objective.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:54 pm |
    • False Reality

      Good does equal God because our morals are based on God's character.

      "You cannot live consistently using moral subjectivism. If you did, then you could not call Hitler, Stalin, terrorists evil, nor could you call Martin Luther King Jr., firefighters, Gandhi, Mother Theresa "good". You may deny it, but our morals are not subjective, they are objective."

      Yes I can...Martin Luther King Jr., firefighters, Gandhi and Mother Theresa is good. Hitler, Stalin and terrorists are evil. These words are not the dominion of God, they are words...created by human beings to express their feelings toward a particular subject. God is not required in Morality, it can be determined by the human social collective, and by the way is an important part of natural selection. If you are Morale, society will accept you if not, it will reject you as morality is defined by the social majority.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      Hindus consider eating cow meat to be immoral. Do you?

      Many Amish consider electricity immoral. Do you?

      Some Baptists and Methodists consider dancing and playing card games immoral. Do you?

      March 11, 2011 at 2:08 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      Good = generally beneficial to life

      Bad = generally harmful to life

      Good can come from Bad. Bad can come from Good. Small example: the death of one person in an accident (bad) can result in saving the life of another by organ transplant (good).

      I know that you crave a black-and-white, cover-all, tied up with a bow philosophy, but it does not exist. So sorry.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
    • Steve

      EVAN said {Atheists say "We define what is right or wrong")
      What a load of bull. Get the facts straight. Atheist means "not-theist" PERIOD. It describes only the position of belief of whether a god or gods exist or not. Atheism says absolutely nothing else. It is only the theist that uses the dogma laid out in their holy book to take any position on what is right or wrong. Secular humanism "is" a philosophical viewpoint that encompasses such things as morality and your statement would be on only slightly less shaky ground if you had said that about humanism. But no humanist would think pouring boiling water on a puppy was accepatable either.Not all atheists are humanists. Buddists and Raelians are atheists too but I don't for one second accept what they believe either.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Evan

      Maybe, those are not arguments over morals, those are arguments over facts. Hindus do not eat cows because they consider them holy. A Christian would agree that eating things that are holy is wrong. However, a Christian does not think cows are holy. The Amish consider electricty evil because it connects them to the things of the world. A Lutheran wil agree that being "of the world" is evil. However, a Lutheran does not think electricity does this. Baptists and Methodists consider dancing evil because it makes them "of the world". A Catholic agree that being of the world is a sin, but they do not agree that dancing does this.

      Ultimately, these arguments are over facts, not morals.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Medardus, maybe you are getting closer, but you will never get there. Ultimately, even if you found undeniable prove for how the universe was created, you would fail to explain why the universe was created. The universe does not have to exist, but it does because someone, whom we call God, had the will to create it."

      Classic arguement from ignorance. If we do not know how it happened than it MUST be GOD. There is no evidence that the beginning of the universe had to be caused by a sentient being, the simplest answer is usually the correct one and that does not include a highly advanced, super-intelligent being.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      "Maybe, those are not arguments over morals, those are arguments over facts."

      Excuse me, but you are the one who said that morals are objective, which means *fact*.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:50 pm |
    • Evan

      Facts is not really the right word. Details is a better word. With abortion for example, the anti-abortion group claims that killing an innocent human being is wrong. The pro-abortion group does agree. However, they don't recognize an unborn human as a human. Notice how they agree on the moral aspect, but disagree on the "details" aspect.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • Evan

      Your definition of God is incorrect. The one that created the universe is called God. There can be no "other theory", for nothing but the being we call God could have created the universe.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:57 pm |
    • Frogist

      @Maybe: Thanks for fighting the good fight. Many so-called Christians refuse to learn anything about the position of atheists in the realm of non-belief. They would much rather scape-goat them as enemies than actually engage in real honest learning with them.
      One thing I will add is how much I find it ridiculous that believers seek to push non-believers into defending why they post on this blog. The idea that just because someone doesn't share the same god as you automatically exempts them from discussing the topic of religion, faith and gods, is as shallow and defensive as it gets. It's like saying if you're a Republican you can't discuss democracy with Democrats. Their insistence just feels territorial. I guess it doesn't really occur to some believers that any discussion of belief automatically includes a discussion of non-belief. It is part of the same subject. As can be clearly seen in some of the topics CNN has added to the Belief Blog that discuss atheism. It's really a shame because there are so many well-versed, well read, non-believers on this blog that they could learn a thing or two and put away their prejudiced ideas for good.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:04 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Fred/ Evan Why cannot I live my life consistency explain.? Fred... when I check into a hotel i see a bible in the room, I see christian schools, Christian book stores, churches.... what atheist book store, schools, bothers you? I do not dislike any one.. I think Christians and religious folks are fine people, as are atheists. It is when i see religious people try to tell me that i m not good with out god ,with no evidence that I object and speak up. I expect that people will not agree that is fine.. this is a forum. other than the fact I do not believe in god.. i bet we have very similar views on other things.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:33 pm |
    • Evan

      Evolved DNA, If you agree that we have similar views on things, you agree that morals are objective. If morals are objective, they can only come from God.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:38 pm |
    • Adam

      Morals are definitely not objective. They are are products of civilization and the times you live in. Since different civilizations place value on different things then their idea of morality also changes. Who are you to argue you are more moral than someone else? The only "proof" you have for your morality is a religious book written thousands of years ago. If that is true, then we should all be Hindu as the vedas are the oldest religious texts still used in religious practice today.

      March 11, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Fred, it's more than meets the eye. Non-believers want to pick and choose Jesus' truth. Throw out all His truth regarding bad behaviors (sin), then rewrite a book of their own to peddle their sinful baloney to the world as the NWO marches forward.

      That too is written in His scriptures.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:51 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "Non-believers want to pick and choose Jesus' truth."
      How many believers disregard Jesus' teachings on divorce, war, and wealth, amongst others? How are the poor, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers represented by today's hawkish, conservative, Red State Christians?

      "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Luke 6:42

      March 13, 2011 at 1:21 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, because you communists, cough, I mean non-believers who were originally called fools by God for refusing to learn His wisdom never read Matthew 7:6. You keep changing your names throughout history, but every Christian knows you by your real name no matter how many times you change it.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 1:36 pm |
    • SeanNJ

      I'm checking to see if "communist" was Merriam-Webster's word of the day...

      March 14, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
  9. lance corporal

    jefferson stated reading the bible was like looking for diamonds in a dung hill.... you really have to dig thru some sh-t to get to the gems, modern christians who claim the founding fathers on their side should keep this in mind, these men where largely liberal intellectuals with a practical bent and where not the judeo/christian zealots that some try and make them out to be, jeffersons take on jesus is wonderful and it is useful in the modern world where we really need to focus more on the lessons of jesus than THE RULES in the entire bible, as jesus said ABOVE ALL ELSE love neighbor as yourself, jefferson had a great mind and his approach to spiritual matters like this is great

    March 11, 2011 at 12:23 pm |
    • Evan

      I agree. Even if you refuse to accept Jesus as God's son, you cannot say the things Jesus tells us to do are evil (Love our neighbors, forgive those who hate you, be humble, turn the other cheek, do not worry, etc.)

      March 11, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • Maybe

      Evan,

      Do you think that Jesus was the first and only one to think up those concepts and to give that advice?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Yes. All the other religions are false, as they twist and contort Jesus' truth, and rip off what they want, use it in their own phony religions.

      The reason your generation, as well as the last 50 years haven't heard Jesus' truth is to all the big egos that preach the thoughts of man, not His truth. These phony con artist preachers/teachers will perish first for leading God's children astray. That too is written.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      > Yes. All the other religions are false, as they twist and contort Jesus' truth, and rip off what they want, use it in their own phony religions.

      Of course. All the other religions, even the ones that came before christ ripped of gems like the golden rule. That makes sense.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
    • Medardus

      @HeavenSent

      "All the other religions are false, as they twist and contort Jesus' truth, and rip off what they want, use it in their own phony religions."

      I don't suppose you know who Mithra is?

      He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithra also performed miracles. Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb. He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

      That Mithraism was a major religous insti-tution 600-800 years before the Bible was written is probably just a coincidence. /sarcasm

      March 11, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
    • False Reality

      "Yes. All the other religions are false, as they twist and contort Jesus' truth, and rip off what they want, use it in their own phony religions.

      The reason your generation, as well as the last 50 years haven't heard Jesus' truth is to all the big egos that preach the thoughts of man, not His truth. These phony con artist preachers/teachers will perish first for leading God's children astray. That too is written.

      Amen."

      That seems to be a lot of wiggle room The ONE TRUE GOD has allowed to exsist. You'd think if he truely wanted salvation and for people to believe in him he'd make it a lot less difficult. Rewarding people for not using the brain they were given seems not only silly but also plain sadistic. Not a God I'd want to spend any time with, let alone an eternity.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      You folks haven't a clue to what Cain has done to Jesus' scriptures. Cain, the 1st murderer in this 2nd earth age. Demon seed of satan's. Cain had children that follow the ways (lies and deceit) of their grandfather. Time to do some homework how Cain and his children and childrens' children through the history of this world make a living of twisting and contorting scriptures, just as satan did to Jesus during the 40 days and 40 nights.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:46 pm |
    • Observer

      Cain went off to some parallel town called Nod, that the Bible failed to explain. Apparently, while God created Adam and Eve, he also set up another civilization. Cain married a woman that wasn't supposed to exist according to the story of Adam and Eve. Oops.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Pagans who worshipped Odin, believed in Isis and Mithra, believing that natural guilt and corruption of their new-born children could be washed away by sprinkling them with water, or by plunging them, as soon as born, into lakes or rivers. Early church founders brought these pagan myths into the church teachings.

      1 Peter 3:21

      March 12, 2011 at 3:39 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, all the races were created on the 6th day. God rested on the 7th. Adam and Even were created on the 8th day to bring forth Emmanuel after generation to generation to Mary who conceived our Lord and Savior. Cain's wife is from the 6th day creation's children.

      So much for your understanding of the Bible with no eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

      March 12, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Observer

      @HeavenSent,

      That's a classic. So Adam and Eve weren't the first people. So what were the names of the first ones? The Bible can't even get the story straight about whether animals came before or after man, so I guess that is as good an excuse as any.

      March 12, 2011 at 5:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The Bobinator, do some research on the Golden Rules. They are Jesus truth, sprinkled in with a few of the other thinkers. The Golden Rules was put together for you commies that refuse to read the Bible.

      God works in mysterious ways ... even for you dry bones with no eyes to see, ears to hear, harden hearts.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
  10. MereChristian

    I choose to believe that we’re here for a purpose and that we’re not an accident. Life is just too complex for this all to be accidental. Actually, if you think about all the things we have here on earth that we take for granted such as plants, animals, etc. there would have to a lot of successful “accidents”. I don’t believe God is a “magic man in the sky”. The Bible says God is a spirit, and has not a body like man. Who are we to say that we can know what exists outside of our physical realm? Also, @ Evolved DNA, I don’t believe Heaven will be a “boring rainy afternoon” Randy Alcorn says (and I believe) that Heaven will be pretty much like our current lives, only without the curse of sin and death. I think we’ll still enjoy all the things we do now, along with things we can only dream of experiencing in this present life.

    March 11, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • False Reality

      Absolutely, and Natural Selection is not an accident. It is by its very nature a means of purpose for improvement over time.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Steve

      MereChristian " The Bible says God is a spirit, and has not a body like man. Who are we to say that we can know what exists outside of our physical realm?"
      Well apparently you and your fellow believers do say. All of God's attributes and desires have been deduced from this same unknowable metaphysical abyss.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • NL

      MereChristian-
      "I choose to believe that we’re here for a purpose and that we’re not an accident."
      Believe what you wish, but "choosing" to believe something does not actually make it so, right?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:54 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      NL you forget. To them believing something is true is as valid as logical analysis. They're mentally sick.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:01 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Hi Mere Christian..If you truly take the time to look at evolution read what the evidence points to, you will see how fantastic life really is..it will all make sense. Reading what Christian books tell you about evolution is incorrect, and listening to that I also would agree it is not possible. If heaven is like life on earth but with out "sin" I have asked before.. then what about people who have died at an early age.. do they get older, or babies that die.. do they stay babies/or grow up.. who looks after them, and would their parents know them when they eventually get to heaven?

      March 11, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      When our physical bodies die, our souls, along with the spirit which is the intellect of the soul, goes back to God who created us. Our spiritual bodies are of young adults, early 20s. There is no male or female form in heaven. We are all the same in spiritual form again. God created some souls to come back to this 2nd earth age as women to bring forth the human race (giving birth) born of water.

      March 12, 2011 at 10:11 am |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Man, you do have a wild imagination! 🙂

      "When our physical bodies die, our souls, along with the spirit which is the intellect of the soul, goes back to God who created us."
      Kinda works if you believe that God is just the universe.

      "Our spiritual bodies are of young adults, early 20s."
      I was kind of a dork in my 20's, and am actually in better physical condition nowadays. It's amazing how well you can turn to taking care of your body once you shed the idea of a heavenly one. Besides, where do you get this stuff? They use to call gnostics heretics, you know?

      "There is no male or female form in heaven. We are all the same in spiritual form again. God created some souls to come back to this 2nd earth age as women to bring forth the human race (giving birth) born of water"
      And, once again, women get the shaft. Will there be men as well, or are these women to be Mary clones, or even ase.xual lesbians?

      March 12, 2011 at 11:40 am |
    • Observer

      "When our physical bodies die, our souls, along with the spirit which is the intellect of the soul, goes back to God who created us. Our spiritual bodies are of young adults, early 20s."

      So if a baby dies, it jumps ahead to how they MIGHT have been in their early 20's. Sure.

      March 12, 2011 at 11:52 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, what I blogged is written from scriptures in the Bible. If you don't believe me, go look for yourself. No one is stopping you, except you.

      It's believed that babies die young because God knows their souls are to sensitive to survive the horrors of man in this world. God allows them to be born of women and takes them back with Him as soon as possible.

      March 12, 2011 at 3:33 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      In addition to all of your other mistaken ideas, just FYI, you are not a "blogger". You are simply commenting on an article or someone else's blog here... posting a message - that's all.

      March 12, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "what I blogged is written from scriptures in the Bible."
      Where, exactly? I've read it and I don't remember any verses that say what you claim. Come on now, with your love of quoting scripture I was sure that your scriptural basis for all these ideas would just take minutes to post. Interesting, very interesting indeed!

      "It's believed that babies die young because God knows their souls are to sensitive to survive the horrors of man in this world. God allows them to be born of women and takes them back with Him as soon as possible."
      Believed, but not an actual biblical teaching, right? You understand, of course, that what you are doing is creating and spreading mythology of standard Christianity. Aren't word of mouth additions like this also part of the "twisting" of "His word" that you warn against? Do you base your thinking that these ideas as correct because you feel it in your gut? Problem with that is that even within your system there are whispers of lies to go with the whispers of truth, right? How do you presume to know for sure that these little ideas of yours aren't the whispered lies?

      March 12, 2011 at 5:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, I don't need to twist and contort scriptures. What you communists don't understand is the TRUTH in why we are here on earth this 2nd time around. I've written Jesus' truth over and over again. Time for you to research previous blogs to see what I and other Christians have written. Just because you refuse to learn His wisdom, doesn't mean His truth doesn't stand for eternity, because He does. He's the Alpha and Omega. You can research that too in the Bible. God allows all souls to be born of woman (aka the waters). He never said anything about length of days for any of us. Therefore, God knows the souls of the babies that die too soon. He knows they are too pure to live among this corrupt world run by satan so God takes them back home to heaven, where he is. God is in another dimension. If you can't understand this truth, it's your loss. You own how you think, what you think, what you do and it's outcome. That is why it's important that you read, comprehend and abide (apply His truth to your life) to produce His righteous actions in your life. You refuse. You loose. Not any Christians that love and follow His truth.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 1:07 pm |
  11. Rich

    I picked up a copy of the Jeffersonian Bible a few years ago. It's on my bookshelf, next to about six other versions of the Bible. Interesting reading.

    March 11, 2011 at 12:12 pm |
  12. CH

    there not their. We all make mistakes!

    March 11, 2011 at 12:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      CH, it comes from typing too fast and being on this blog with no editing functions. Then, try to click on the cancel reply. It doesn't work.

      Peace.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
  13. CH

    If their is a god and he did create me, then he created me to be a skeptic. I doubt he will send me to some place called hell for doubting his existence. I don't hurt anyone and live a peaceful life. I hope thats all any god would ask. You don't need to follow a religion to be a good person!

    March 11, 2011 at 12:10 pm |
    • Daniel

      Have you been reading meditations by Marcus Aurelius? You know God doesn't like free thought!!!!! 😉

      March 11, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      CH, you and all the other non-believers are blinded by your own egos making you believe your own nonsense. You're all stroking your own selves. LOL.

      Thousands of years ago He wrote the following about folks like you. You're nothing new. Many people have been lost over the years. You non-believers, too. Lost, lost, lost.

      God rejects all those who stray from His word. It does not matter what the subject matter is. There is no salvation for any who heed not holy writ, as Psalm 119:21 proclaims,

      You rebuke the proud, the cursed, who stray from Your commandments.

      For the commandment is a lamp, and the law a light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life. (Proverbs 6:23).

      Cease listening to instruction, my son, and you will stray from the words of knowledge. (Proverbs 19:27).

      So, He has written, as always been written, for eternity. You folks are nothing new under the sun with loving your own bad behavior. You own it. Stop shoving it in our directions. We live in His light. You live in darkness. He welcomes all. You're too arrogant right now to understand His truth, for you still buy into lies.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      That's rich. You talking about anyone else's ego, Heaven's Stinker. You must have permanent disfigurement from patting yourself on the back with one hand while polishing your halo with the other.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      > CH, you and all the other non-believers are blinded by your own egos making you believe your own nonsense.

      Ok, let's put that to the test.

      Tell me how my ego prevents me from seeing the truth of Jesus' birth story. You know the one where there was a census at 6 AD with someone alive who had died at 4 BC. Tell me how my ego affects those facts, showing that the story is false.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, Tom and CH, when you don't go humble (meaning to shelf your ego) you just see words written in the Bible, your ego is blocking what Jesus teaches. Anyone can read the Bible. It's whether you clear your mind of what you think you know, go humble in order for Him to pour out His wisdom. Reading the Bible with your preconceived ideas blocks out ever reading His truth. He knew that, that's why He told us not to have other gods (meaning your ego being your mini-god, as well as worshiping false gods) before Him.

      March 12, 2011 at 9:59 am |
  14. Jim B

    The burden of proof is logically on the one claiming the truth of an unproven hypothesis, not on one denying the truth of the hypothesis.

    March 11, 2011 at 11:52 am |
    • NL

      And that hypothesis would be that at least one god actually does exist, and was not the complete product of the human imagination, right?

      March 11, 2011 at 12:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Jim B, give it a rest will you? Greater minds that ever lived and are living today tried to disprove Jesus' truth written in the Bible. They all walked away agreeing that Jesus' truth is Perfect. There is no contradictions, only when sinners don't want to give up their evil intentions of butting Heads with His truth.

      Therefore, don't think you and your non-believing buddies are anything special knocking His truth. You're just the last generation of spiritually dead heads walking and squawking as you bumble through life among the rest of us that respect, appreciate and are in awe of His truth. But, rest assure, you are the last generation in these end of days. Bad figs, the lot of you.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:26 pm |
    • Medardus

      Care to cite some of those "greater minds," HeavenSent?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      > Jim B, give it a rest will you? Greater minds that ever lived and are living today tried to disprove Jesus' truth written in the Bible. They all walked away agreeing that Jesus' truth is Perfect. There is no contradictions, only when sinners don't want to give up their evil intentions of butting Heads with His truth.

      BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *gasp* *pant* HA HA HA HA HA

      March 11, 2011 at 1:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ahhahhaha! Yeah, that should be good. Heaven's Stinker thinks she's one of them. As if.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:58 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Medardus, and the rest of your handles, search on the Net to learn what minds tried to disprove Jesus' truth over the centuries. Not your rag site non-believers that wouldn't post truth if their lives depended on it. The problem with your generation is habitually going to those rag sites while there are other sites that don't need to stroke your egos. You folks are in this perpetual cycle of needing to be stroked. Sad for you. Satan fell due to the sin of Pride, AKA his ego ... and you are falling his path of destruction and lies.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Medardus

      @HeavenSent

      You brought them up. I figured you knew exactly where they were.

      Hey, while we're on the subject of great minds, I don't suppose you've read Hitchens, Dawkins, Paine or Sam harris have you?

      Interesting, too, that you bring up Satan. Satan is called the "Father of lies" but there is no biblical evidence (other than hearsay) that Satan ever did lie. In fact, in the Garden of Eden, when Satan (Or Serpent, but who can tell the difference?) tells Eve that she won't die "in the day thereof" when she eats the fruit, Satan is telling the truth, because Eve did not die until much later. Fundamentalists cover this by saying that Eve spiritually died the instant she ate the fruit, despite the fact that she gained the ability to tell good from evil. This is very much like when you sent $30 to a TV preacher for him to pray that you win the lottery. You didn't really win the lottery, but you won the lottery spiritually.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:48 pm |
    • False Reality

      "CH, you and all the other non-believers are blinded by your own egos making you believe your own nonsense. You're all stroking your own selves. LOL.

      Thousands of years ago He wrote the following about folks like you. You're nothing new. Many people have been lost over the years. You non-believers, too. Lost, lost, lost.

      God rejects all those who stray from His word. It does not matter what the subject matter is. There is no salvation for any who heed not holy writ, as Psalm 119:21 proclaims,

      You rebuke the proud, the cursed, who stray from Your commandments.

      For the commandment is a lamp, and the law a light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life. (Proverbs 6:23).

      Cease listening to instruction, my son, and you will stray from the words of knowledge. (Proverbs 19:27).

      So, He has written, as always been written, for eternity. You folks are nothing new under the sun with loving your own bad behavior. You own it. Stop shoving it in our directions. We live in His light. You live in darkness. He welcomes all. You're too arrogant right now to understand His truth, for you still buy into lies.

      Amen."

      There is nothing here that reven remotely proves anything, you can not use biblical text to prove that God exsists because it does not present any evidence. Furthermore, this is nothing more than thinly veiled threats, if you need to result in trying to peddle fear, the likelihood that you have anything worthwhile to say is slim to none. If what you said had any weight you would not need to resort to such tactics.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Medardus

      Eve became pregnant with satan's seed due to being beguiled by him in the Garden of Eden. She gave birth to twins. Cain was satan's seed bringing in his evil in to the world again, this 2nd earth age and Abel is Adam's seed. Satan was trying to corrupt God’s plan of bringing forth Emmanuel (God with us) called Jesus Christ to walk among us, die for our sins aka wipe out death/evil. Cain slew Abel. Or, didn't you learn that. Cain is the first murderer in this 2nd earth age.

      Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

      Genesis 3:14-15

      14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
      15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

      John 8:39-44

      39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
      40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
      41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born [bloodline] of fornication [of Eve, the first adulteress with the serpent/satan]; we have one Father [Adam was the son of God], even God.
      42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
      43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
      44 Ye are of [genealogy―see note] your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

      These are just a few of the scriptures pertaining to the war between God and the serpent (Lucifer, satan, evil, lies). It's the same war from the beginning to the end no matter what generation is living in the world.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      naga`

      Genesis 3:2-3

      2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
      3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

      touch: Hebrew word #5060 naga` (naw-gah'); a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): – beat, (X be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

      March 11, 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    • Medardus

      So God told a snake that he would be cursed to forever move around on his belly. Wow. Like Jesus cursing a fig tree because it wouldn't bear fruit out of season.

      I'm very familiar with Cain and Abel. My problem is that it wasn't murder. It was, at best, manslaughter. Up until Abel died no one had ever died before. Death was unknown to the population of the world (all four of them). So, Cain, smacking Abel in the head with a rock, would not known that Abel's death could be a possible consequence.

      By the way, I thought I made it clear that Satan never lies in the Bible. Did you miss it?

      You also have yet to cite any of these "great minds" you talk about. I'm waiting.

      March 11, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Medardus, Good figs are those that love and follow Jesus. With that said, guess what bad figs are? Cain is the first murderer and you wouldn't know that unless you read the Bible on your own and stop listening to him (yes, Cain for fleeing to Nod, area of Russia, and his ancestors that spread the lies of Jesus' truth through history, creating false religions etc. liars of those that don't want you to know God's truth. Satan is the lie. He's the father of it as posted in John 8 and throughout the Bible.

      Bottom Line, God wins, satan looses as do all those that follow his lies.

      Gotta go. It's Friday nite.

      March 11, 2011 at 8:28 pm |
    • Medardus

      @HeavenSent

      I have read the Bible, dear. The Qu'ran, too, as well as the Torah. It's rather a necessity when pursuing a degree in comparative religion. I thought I made that clear earlier.

      Ah, well.

      You're right, though, it is indeed Friday night. I'm sure they're missing you at the bingo parlor.

      March 11, 2011 at 10:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Heh, Medardus. Doesn't it crack you up when Heavenly Stink puts "Amen" at the end of her posts? What a pompous windbag. You can just see her imagining herself blessing the congregation, kind of like Reverend Moon.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tommie, Tom, Tom, Amen means "so it is", "that is truth", "as is written". Your generation says "period".

      March 12, 2011 at 9:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      What's the matter Tommie, Tom, Tom, still riffed over being called out for your BAD behavior? I'm not blogging to stroke your ego. You can get that from the numerous false preachers teaching one of His truths, week after week. With that rate, you'd hear 80% of Jesus' truth as written in the Bible in about 800 years.

      March 12, 2011 at 9:52 am |
  15. JacobS

    To D-Ducktive:

    I'm sure you are much smarter than Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, John Adams, John Payne, Ghandi, ML King Jr., Maimonides, etc., etc., etc., – all of whom believed in a magic man in the sky. As smart as you are, I'm sure you have written many books and have benefited mankind in some wonderful way.

    Oh... you haven't? And you're not smarter than all of those great men who believed in God? And you didn't realize that just about every great man or woman throughout history who did anything noteworthy believed in that magic man in the sky as you mentioned? Wow. you are actually pretty stupid. And insufferably arrogant.

    I think I'll side with the great men and women throughout history over an Internet troll like yourself. Cheers!

    March 11, 2011 at 11:16 am |
    • NL

      Ah, Franklin, as smart as he was, still couldn't imagine that things like meteors could drop to the earth. What science knew of space was very limited at that time, and these men were the product of their age and were still trapped without any scientific models that would suggest that the universe could have originated naturally.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:28 am |
    • JacobS

      NL,

      And what of Albert Einstein whose own theory of relativity, in his view, showed the existence of God since the universe must have had a beginning? Was he a prisoner of his time as well? Or did your college classes not teach you that part? Most don't.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:41 am |
    • Good Grief

      Nicely put. Why do athiest take the mention of religion in any article SO personally? They have some kind of need to attack believers and it's getting quite boring. If you want to make an intelligent contribution while identifying yourself as an athiest, what's so hard about saying upfront, "I don't belive in a god...but ." Instead, we get attacks and immature name calling ("magic man in the sky").

      March 11, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • NL

      These are some quotes of what Einstein believed about God.

      "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

      "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

      "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

      "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

      More at http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

      Now, does this sound like the thoughts of a true believer?

      March 11, 2011 at 12:01 pm |
    • Medardus

      "Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

      As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and His Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubt as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I need not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. I see no harm in its being believed, if that belief has the good Consequence, as probably it has, of making his Doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Unbelievers in his Government of the world with any peculiar Marks of his Displeasure."

      – Benjamin Franklin, letter to Yale President Ezra Stiles, March 1790 (one month before his death)

      As for Newton, as well as a creationist, he also believed in alchemy. While modern religious apologists will reference Newton on his religious views (classic argument from authority... which pretty much sums up your entire post, actually) modern chemists, however, do not reference Newton on his views of alchemy.

      "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

      – Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 1787

      I don't claim to be smarter than any of the men you mentioned. I merely have a dissenting opinion on religion based on available data.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, it's apparent that you've never read Ezekiel 1:4. I'm sure our founding father's did. After you read it, then you'll understand how aviation came to be.

      Mmmmh, how many years ago was the Book of Ezekiel written?

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
    • NL

      Good Grief-
      It's not that we take religion "SO personally", as you put it, it's just that nobody else seems interested in challenging religious beliefs seriously, something that many of us feel is absolutely necessary considering how much harm they can cause within society. Perhaps, if more non-conservative believers bothered to voice their own opinions concerning the extreme positions that seem to define the faiths in the arena of public opinion than atheist voices would not stand out so much. Unfortunately, other believers seem easily cowed by the usual threats of hell that conservatives routinely fire at all who oppose their views, so it seems like you're stuck with hearing from us for the time being.

      "Instead, we get attacks and immature name calling ("magic man in the sky")."
      You may think that God is real but, as you pointed out, we do not. So we do not consider this "name calling" any more than saying that Edward Cullen, a 100 odd year old vampire trapped in a 17 year old body, is actually just a dirty old man attracted to a teenager. I'm sure that saying this would upset plenty of Twihards as well, but there's a truth to it that cannot be denied, just as there is a truth to the idea that God has, and apparently still is, imagined as a "magic man in the sky" by some believers.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Ezekiel 1:4
      "I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north–an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal,"

      You now, of course, that this passage is the most quoted by UFO enthusiasts who claim that aliens have been visiting our planet for thousands of years, right?

      March 11, 2011 at 12:52 pm |
    • Karen

      NL not only that but it was based on a vision and not fact. Maybe the writer was on LSD or something.

      and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

      10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. They each had two wings spreading out upward, each wing touching that of the creature on either side; and each had two other wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • NL

      NL
      HeavenSent-
      Picking from the same branch of the cherry tree we have:
      Ezekiel 1:5-10
      "and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved. 10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."

      Now, does that sound like Ezekiel is having a vision of Chuck Yeager, or some other human pilots?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, it is about trying to describe a vehicle in the future, back when the writer, walked or road horses, donkeys, had carts with wheels being pulled by beasts of burden.

      Think about how many years ago the Book of Ezekiel was written. Reminds Christians of where the sci-fi folks got their original materials.

      Actually, NL, anything your generation can conjure up or assume you are conjuring up with those mash potato brains, has already been written in that dusty book you so despise aka there is nothing new under the sun, Jesus already had it written in the Bible by inspiring mortal men to pen His truth.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
    • NL

      Karen-
      Right on! You beat me to that post. 🙂

      Actually, we have evidence that hallucinogenic plants were used in religion long before, say, the burning bush. So, who knows, right?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Actually, your quote describes "an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal,". "Looked like" molten metal, right? Not like a shiny airplane fuselage, but like molten lava. So, where do you get the idea that this has to be some kind of vehicle, and not a volcanic eruption? You know, like the ones that creationists imagine carried the kangaroos to Australia after the flood?

      "Think about how many years ago the Book of Ezekiel was written. Reminds Christians of where the sci-fi folks got their original materials."
      Can't argue with you there, but does arguing that crazy scary monsters, UFOs are actually a biblical inventions really help make your case that the Bible is trustworthy?

      "Actually, NL, anything your generation can conjure up or assume you are conjuring up with those mash potato brains, has already been written in that dusty book you so despise aka there is nothing new under the sun"
      So, now are you arguing that the bible writer's had superior imaginations to modern fiction writers? Again, is that supposed to instill confidence in biblical truth?

      "Jesus already had it written in the Bible by inspiring mortal men to pen His truth."
      Jesus? I thought that biblical inspiration was the Holy Spirit's job, or an angel's? Still, even if you want to call the bible stories "inspired by true events" does that label really guarantee complete accuracy in reportage?

      March 11, 2011 at 1:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, the way you folks write, I wonder what a generation 2,000 years from now would think of the Corvette? Then again, you are the last generation with all the prophesies written in the Bible coming faster and faster since 1948. Why do you think "they" want to erase God out of your mind?

      Go ponder that truth, why your generation is made to believe Jesus is made up and how "they" instilled this into you by stroking your egos ... pumping you up daily believing your generation is the "thinkers" and other generations don't have a clue. My answer: Get over yourselves. You haven't even tasted life, never mind survived anything. When you are still standing in harmony with yourself in your 70s, 80s +, we'll talk.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • Leslie

      " You haven't even tasted life, never mind survived anything. When you are still standing in harmony with yourself in your 70s, 80s +, we'll talk." So Heaven Sent what is the great thing you survived? Probably nothing, which is why you are in the same category you are putting others into. Heaven Sent it's time you get over yourself.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
    • Maybe

      HeavenSent,
      "believing your generation is the "thinkers" and other generations don't have a clue. My answer: Get over yourselves. You haven't even tasted life"

      First, you have NO IDEA about the ages of the posters here (a few have revealed theirs - @Reality is in his 70s, @David Johnson and @NL are in their 50s, and I am in my 60s).

      Second, age does not automatically equal wisdom - as evidenced by you.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • JacobS

      NL,

      I never said Einstein believed in a personal God. I said he believed in God. It's a big difference that may have too much nuance for your average atheist. Due to his theory of relativity proving the universe had a beginning, Einstein realized something had to pre-exist the universe to start the process in motion. Too bad modern science ignores possibly the greatest scientific discovery of all time because of an anti-religious agenda.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • Greg

      @HeavenSent. You can't KEEP using the Bible to prove the infallability of the Bible! That is a logical fallacy of the highest order. You can't take a book and say, "I'm going to PROVE that this book speaks the truth!.... see, it says so right here in this book." That makes zero sense and religionists never address the ludicrousness of it.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:10 pm |
    • Maybe

      JacobS,

      Even IF a first cause exists, you know nothing of its properties and attributes... and all of the human-like characteristics of it have been endowed upon it by man.

      You don't know whether it is real big or real small, whether it even has awareness of its offshoot (the universe), whether it has wants and needs and demands, that it has love and hate, benevolence and wrath, the power to reward eternal happiness.

      Our 'universe' could be like a seed in the wind (maybe one of many) with a set of physics that programmed the effects that we see - and the original plant has no knowledge or effect on its progress - or a shed skin cell - or a sneeze droplet. You might tear those analogies to pieces, they're just off the top of my head here - not a philosophical treatise; but the bottom line is: We just DON'T KNOW.... yet, if ever.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:10 pm |
    • NL

      JacobS-
      "Einstein realized something had to pre-exist the universe to start the process in motion."
      And, if he were alive today, do you think he would disagree with Hawking? He went a long way in physics, but others have built upon his work and expanded it in ways he did not have time to discover for himself. So, Newton, to Einstein, to Hawking is a continuum of growing knowledge about the universe just like the Vikings, to Columbus, to Lewis and Clark is a continuum of growing knowledge about North America. Nobody disbelieves that the Vikings couldn't have learned as much about the continent as the later explorers if they had managed to stay longer, right? No serious scientist out there actually believes that they've learned all that is knowable within their field of study, and that they have all the answers, like some religious folks seem to insist upon.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:12 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Jacob

      "I never said Einstein believed in a personal God. I said he believed in God. It's a big difference that may have too much nuance for your average atheist. Due to his theory of relativity proving the universe had a beginning, Einstein realized something had to pre-exist the universe to start the process in motion. Too bad modern science ignores possibly the greatest scientific discovery of all time because of an anti-religious agenda."

      Modern astrophysics ignores both general and special relativity how?

      Einstein was, at best, a deist. He may have believed in a creator but he certainly did not believe in the Abrahamic god. Apparently the such nuance is too much for your average Christian to get.

      Care to trot out any other arguments that have been repeatedly, and at length, disproven?

      March 11, 2011 at 3:14 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Justin Bieber talks like he's absolutely sure about God as well, but I've got grey patches in my hair older than he is.

      Since we're sharing, how old are you? You sound like I did back in my 20's, when I was still a practicing Catholic, and believed that I knew everything about God too. I've discovered a lot since then, and I discover more with each passing day. I'm mature enough to know that I'll likely continue to learn until I die.

      So, if you really do think that you know for sure that you are right and will never be proven wrong, or never change your mind for that matter, you may want to get your own ego checked.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Maybe and NL. You can type all the nonsense you want behind that keyboard of yours. One, you are no where near the ages you claim. Just for the mere fact that a few of you blogged back a few articles back about ejecting out of a plane full of passengers, while piloting it when the plane got into trouble. A young person give a smarty answer like that. Not a mature man who's paid a salary for being a responsible pilot. I can go on and on with the immature writings of yours too prove you are young, maybe teenagers or 20s. If you are in your 50s, 60s, etc. as stated. I'm sure you are lonely because women are walking big circles around you for never growing up.

      March 11, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Happily married to the same woman since graduating college. Don't know what you're referring to with the piloting business, but I wouldn't agree that age has everything to do with wisdom anyway. Jerry Falwell, after all, could have been Justin Bieber's Great-Grandfather, and that movie, Jesus Camp, certainly demonstrates that kids even as young as five can easily reach Jerry's level of wisdom. Nope, age is definitely not the deciding factor there.

      All I can say is that I've been around long enough to know that I haven't learned everything yet, that my mind has changed before and can be changed again with new evidence, and that anyone who claims to know that something will remain true forever is a damn fool.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:32 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Leslie, you know nothing about me unless you read previous posts in other articles on this site. Time to do homework.

      NL, Jesus' truth in the Bible is being proved every passing year, not only by the sciences, but by others as well. His truth is being revealed as need be to different generations. With that said, if you rule out His truth written in the Bible, just because you want to, you loose, and believers get to continue to watch what is revealed.

      March 12, 2011 at 9:41 am |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, all the sciences and others have been proving Jesus' truth in the Bible. Jesus reveals His truth according to His time table, not man's.

      I'm glad you are happy in your marriage and I hope your wife's interpretation is the same as yours.

      Peace.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "Jesus' truth in the Bible is being proved every passing year, not only by the sciences, but by others as well."
      That's a pretty broad statement. Are you saying that you no longer have any problem with evolution, the big bang theory, radio carbon dating, the age of the Earth, the scientific unlikelihood of the great flood, and the archeological evidence against the chronology of the bible story?

      You see, in past statements you said that only science that matches scripture is 'real' science, right? But, if you actually knew how science works you would know that this could never work, because 'researchers' would only select data and evidence that matches the 'known' outcome, and disregard the rest. Imagine a CSI team working this way. "We know who had to have done it, so just pick up the evidence that helps make a case against him and get rid of the rest." Now, would you call that an effective way of determining the truth?

      March 12, 2011 at 6:14 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, open your communist eyes. True, pure science matches the Bible perfectly. You buy into all the theories of science as absolutes. Christians don't. We know that the sciences are still working on said theories.

      Have you read Matthew 7:6 yet? I have and will stick to that scripture with the likes of you.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 12:51 pm |
  16. Eric

    Interesting...How did owner slaves, having children with them out of wedlock, line up with the morals of Jesus?

    March 11, 2011 at 11:03 am |
    • NL

      Why wouldn't he? Jesus never said anything against slavery, did he?

      March 11, 2011 at 11:21 am |
    • JacobS

      They don't.

      Of course, John and Abigail Adams and Samuel Adams were devout Christians (unlike Jefferson who was a deist), and they were strongly against slavery. This is the great difference between believing in a personal God and an impersonal one.

      Of course, you didn't know this.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:26 am |
    • NL

      JacobS-
      But, then aren't you suggesting that the Adams didn't draw upon the Bible for moral guidance? Doesn't that mean that they actually drew upon their own consciences and senses of compassion to do what they felt was right, directly contrary to what the Bible and common Christian thinking at the time suggested? Quite a liberal definition of Christianity, wouldn't you say? Quite in keeping with the churches that accept gays just as they are, for example, and almost indistinguishable from secular methods of determining what is moral. Interesting!

      March 11, 2011 at 11:38 am |
    • JacobS

      NL,

      And what of Albert Einstein whose own theory of relativity, in his view, showed the existence of God since the universe must have had a beginning? Was he a prisoner of his time as well? Or did your college classes not teach you that part? Most don't.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:38 am |
    • HeavenSent

      In order to get an education, one must have an open mind to allow information to sink in. Not this generation, the most closed minded bunch I've ever seen in my life. But, then again, it is written that they are a bunch of walking spiritual dead, dry bones in this last generation of the Fig tree. Bad figs. Rebellious, jealous, without the wisdom of God to guide them in life, to make their spirits come ALIVE. Only know the word LOVE, but can not feel it. Only know the word COMPASSION, yet they can't feel it. I can go on and on what they know how to spell, but all those dry bones, are crackling among His feet and can't feel for they have no wisdom to learn how to feel and make their spirits come alive. Only God makes His children come alive. These bad figs are rotting on the tree and He will cut their branch off if they don't humble themselves to repent and ask Him to guide them in life. Without Him, there is no life and they prove it every time they blog.

      Amen.

      Ame.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:34 pm |
    • Josh

      HeavenSent that was a comment uncalled for because if you really think about it the human hearthas not changed at all. When it comes to matters of human nature, emotions, relationships, and ultimate meaning they have remained the same throughout history. The bottom line, you just wrote about yourself too.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      > In order to get an education, one must have an open mind to allow information to sink in. Not this generation, the most closed minded bunch I've ever seen in my life.

      You are abolustely hilarious. You claim others are close minded but then go on to assert that the only worldview that exists is the one put forth by the bible. With no evidence to support it btw.

      HILARIOUS.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Jacob

      "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. ... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superst-ition."

      – Albert Einstein, in a letter to philosopher Erik Gutkind, January 1954

      March 11, 2011 at 1:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Josh,

      he heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9) without learning the truth of Jesus as written in his letter He wrote all of us (the Bible) to read, comprehend what He wrote, and apply His wisdom to our lives.

      Who has made the heart? The Lord Jesus Christ has made every heart (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17). He fashions their hearts individually. (Psalm 33:15).

      For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. (Romans 11:36).

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • Leslie

      "He fashions their hearts individually" That's right which means that you shouldn't be pas-s-ing judgement of how others live their lives it's between them and God. They do not have to follow your nar-row minded view of life. That is why bible thum-ping Christians like you are so bad for our society.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • NL

      JacobS-
      See below for debunking of idea that Einstein believed in God, or at least any definition of God that involves the supernatural. It truly amazes me that believers keep bringing this myth up when a simple inquiry easily reveals it to be a lie. Guess you're all banking that the typical believer will accept such stories on face value.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
    • Ron

      But Heavensent, respectfully, you are simply on the opposite side of the fence of those you condemn. You offer up your bible and beliefs as facts. They offer up the thought that logic and a verifiable universe do not prove the existence of deity. Both claim to be right based on their, I hate to say it as it isn't the same, belief. I simply wish that people could simply accept the fact that everyone isn't going to believe the same things, be good with that and allow each to live their own lives. I really don't think that either side can prove, with 100% accuracy, that deity does or doesn't exist. It's a choice one simply makes.
      Peace.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "In order to get an education, one must have an open mind to allow information to sink in."
      Well, that busted my irony meter all to hell.

      Actually, it's because the more moderate elements of the world's faiths, and most atheists for that matter, actually feel 'compassion' and 'love' that we all reject the biased bigotry perpetuated by folks claiming to follow the 'true' edicts of religion. Wasn't this the message of Jesus: Compassion and love over rigid Law and dogma? Who are the Pharisees of our day if not the fundamentalists?

      March 11, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Leslie, Judging is believing. Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? (Luke 12:57). What is right? The statutes of the Lord are right (Psalm 19:8).

      For the wicked [man without God] boasts of his heart's desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

      Psalm 10:3-4.

      Christians discern who reads, comprehends and abides in Jesus truth versus who refuses. God judges ALL.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
    • Observer

      To claim that non-believers are evil is just pure ignorance. Actually, non-believers that do good deserve far more credit than Christians because they do it because they feel it's right, rather than due to bribes (heaven) and threats (hell).

      March 12, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, all you non-believers call yourselves something else. Always switching names, not wanting to be known by what God call you, fools that refuse to learn wisdom. In our day and age, your real name is communist. All dry bones, harden hearts, with no eyes to see, nor ears to hear Jesus' truth.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
  17. JacobS

    Jefferson and Franklin were deists who believed in God but not necessarily in a God that one can know. Jefferson believed strongly in the moral teachings of Jesus Christ. Men like Washington, Payne, and Adams and many others were deeply devout Christians. To try to put our founding fathers all into one group or another is extremely simplistic and naive, but it is true that all of them wanted to create a nation that allowed freedom for the practice of religion.

    March 11, 2011 at 11:01 am |
  18. NL

    Apparently, Jefferson would have gotten along very well with John Dominic Crossan. Hell, if it had been around at the time, he might have even been a member of the Jesus Seminar. I wonder what he would have thought of today's evangelical conservatives?

    March 11, 2011 at 9:31 am |
  19. secular truther

    It's amazing how this is news. Even Jefferson knew the bible was fiction, that's why he pulled parts of it out. I love how so many dumb Christians think this country was founded just for them.

    March 11, 2011 at 9:14 am |
    • One Sad Christian

      Yes I am sad that one day you WILL learn the truth...That there is indeed a GOD...and for you and all other unbelievers will be a sad day of reckoning. Repent now and learn the truth or you can decide to stay on track to spend eternity having lunch with Bill Mayer........

      March 11, 2011 at 9:40 am |
    • Evolved DNA

      One Sad Christian..how come apparently god loves unconditionally but with conditions. You have absolutely no proof of what you speak and threats and fear is all you have .Do you know how long eternity is? if you get bored on a rainy afternoon.. well eternity is far longer than that and you plan to praise and and worship your personal god for all that time.. for ever.. it will loose it shine after a few weeks i would think. Lunch will Bill sounds good actually.

      March 11, 2011 at 10:20 am |
    • doctore0

      They don't need to be dumb to be christians.. just brainwashed and selfish

      March 11, 2011 at 10:31 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Evolved DNA,

      So do you let love die when you become bored? How does that work for your marriage?

      Loving unconditionally as Jesus Christ does, does not mean that sin is loved, just people are loved… Those who are willing to acknowledge their sin and repent of it are those who are sorry for offending Love with sin; if pride gets in the way of repentance, that is what one can choose…it is taking steps away from God but He is still in love with the one who does become bored with loving Him, but He refuses to interfere with that person’s choices.

      If you prefer Bill to your Creator…it is your choice. I wonder if Bill will love you as much as the Love you leave behind...

      March 11, 2011 at 10:43 am |
    • Silver Chair

      @Evolved DNA

      1) You can't prove that God doesn't exist, so your argument is a wash.
      2) God loves you, no matter what. He will never stop loving you. Never. That is what unconditional love means.
      3) Nothing that your heart and soul are passionate about ever truly loses its shine. Ever.
      4) Lunch with Bill sounds like either a cure for insomnia or a sure fire way of developing a gastro-intestinal illness, but that's just my opinion.

      March 11, 2011 at 10:57 am |
    • D-Ducktive

      It is not my job to disprove the tooth fairy or santa exist. If you claim there is a magic man in the sky that supernaturally surveils the earth, who asks parents to kill their children, who advocates for slavery, genocide and vengeance, the burden is on you.

      The point is that most of the founders did not believe in a personal god who cares what particularly unhairy primates do in their bedrooms.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:01 am |
    • a

      The burden of proof lies with the person who is asking the other to change their mind. But other than that, the vast majority of humanity believes in a higher power, so it seems to me the burden of proof would be on the side that is the VAST minority ... but once again, the side that is asking the other to change their mind have to prove their point within reason.

      That does assume we're just talking about proving the existence of a higher power, the more things strapped onto that argument the more the burden of proof would shift to the side arguing for God.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      How's those dry bones doing these days? Getting bitter and more brittle as time goes on I see!

      You're lucky that our Nation is blessed by God. Even though we have to deal with your bad behaviors aka sinful ways.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Silver Chair

      You said: " You can't prove that God doesn't exist, so your argument is a wash."

      Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.

      Extraordinary claims, requires extraordinary evidence – Carl Sagan

      No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we feel is probable.

      I think we can rule out god, in the same way we rule out any other mythological creature. We can't prove vampires or werewolves or fairies don't exist. But, I bet you would agree, that they are not real. They just don't fit in with reality.

      So, we can look for attributes of god, that should provide evidence that He exists.
      If positive evidence is found, we should conclude that god probably exists.
      If positive evidence is not found, then we should conclude that the Christian God, beyond a reasonable doubt, does not exist. Just like Santa. Just like fairies. Just like vampires.

      One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
      Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps He does not exist.

      Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone to know He exists and is the one true god?

      1 Timothy 2: 3 – 5 says the Christian god does desire this:
      3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
      4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
      5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

      1. If the Christian God existed, this fact would be more obvious.
      So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god.

      2. The Christian God's existence is not, in fact, as obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
      This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists.

      3. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

      In the same vein as the above, notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000). Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.

      All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
      Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.

      If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?

      ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression

      1. If the Christian god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.
      People attempt to discover and comprehend god's wants, by reading the bible.

      2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
      This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.

      3. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.

      Another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one. Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled.
      We don't want to postulate what isn't necessary.

      John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ?

      I can explain the existence of these horrors as being due to natural causes, and evolution but my explanation fails when I include an all loving Creator in the equation. I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.

      Christians say their god is omnibenevolent (all good); omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient ( all knowing)

      1. If the Christian god is all good, He would want to rid the world of suffering / evil.

      2. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be able to rid the world of suffering / evil.

      3. Yet, evil persists.

      Therefore, Either the Christian god does not care, or He does not exist.

      The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.

      If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.

      1. If the Christian god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.

      2. If the Christian god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.

      3. The attributes attributed to the Christian god conflict with one another. The Christian god cannot exist.

      Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.

      If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the diseases that have caused and are causing so much death and misery for humans and animals. He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and blood flukes. And worms that bores into a child's eye.

      How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist. And if god didn't create them, who did?

      Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the pathogens and the parasites that have caused so much human death and misery.

      If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.

      If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.

      If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason god allows so much suffering in the world.

      If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.

      If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is a based on a false premise.

      If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible.
      LOL, which is why the fundies fight so hard against evolution.

      The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes.

      Cheers!

      Nevaeh
      Evidence Against God II

      Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.
      Extraordinary claims, requires extraordinary evidence – Carl Sagan
      No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we feel is probable.
      I think we can rule out god, in the same way we rule out any other mythological creature. Never actually proving there is no god, but close enough for arguments sake. A preponderance of the evidence if you will. In life, we decide if things exist or not, all the time.
      One of the most compelling to me, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
      Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps He does not exist.
      The Christian god is said to be: Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent.
      Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone, or most everyone, to know He exists and is the one true god? There are many biblical verses that would say this is true.
      1. If the Christian God existed, this fact would be more obvious.
      So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god.
      2. The Christian God's existence is not, in fact, as obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
      This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists.
      3. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
      In the same vein as the above, notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000). Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
      All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
      Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.
      If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?
      ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression
      1. If the Christian god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.
      People attempt to discover and comprehend god's wants, by reading the bible.
      2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
      This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.
      3. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.
      Another reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one. Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled. The explanation, "God did it", no longer satisfies us.
      We don't need to postulate what isn't necessary.
      If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ?
      I can explain the existence of these horrors as being due to natural causes, but my explanation fails when I include an all loving god in the equation. I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.
      1. If the Christian god is all good, He would want to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      2. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be able to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      3. Yet, evil persists.
      Therefore, Either the Christian god does not care, or He does not exist.
      The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.
      If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.
      1. If god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.
      2. If god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.
      3. The attributes attributed to the Christian god conflict with one another. The Christian god cannot exist.
      Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.
      If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the germs and sickness that have caused and are causing so much death and suffering for humans and animals.
      He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and the tapeworm. The worm that bores into a child's eye.
      How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist.
      Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the germs and the parasites that have caused so much human misery.
      If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.
      If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.

      If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason there is so much suffering in the world.
      If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.
      If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is based on a false premise.
      If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible. No reason to believe in the Christian god.
      LOL, which is why the fundies fight so hard against evolution.

      Studies have shown prayer does not work. There is no evidence for an immaterial soul.

      The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, or talking snakes.

      Cheers!

      March 11, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
    • David, Rochester NY

      @secular truther, seeing as how most of those who settled the land that became the English Colonies were Christians fleeing persecution (from other groups of Christians), it isn't actually that far off to think that this nation was created "for Christians" (at the time).

      @D-Ducktive. Really dude?

      Washington – Episcopal
      Jefferson – Deist
      Hamilton – Episcopal
      Sam Adams – Congregationalist
      John Adams – Unitarian
      Ben Franklin – Deist
      James Monroe – Episcopal
      John Jay – Episcopal

      So that leaves us with James Madison as basically the only extremely important founding father who's beliefs concerning an invisible man in the sky weren't well known (the assumption that he was atheist is very likely to be right).

      Do a 5 minute look through wikipedia next time...

      March 11, 2011 at 12:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David Johnson, EvolvedDNA, Reality are all one person with different blogs all wanting others to jump through their hoops of nonsense. Tune in. You loose your soul in the end of this generation of BAD FIGS. Not any of the Christians blogging with you. You also loose spiritual aliveness while walking this earth. You're a bunch of dry, brittle bones. Spiritual dead while walking in the flesh.

      Proof. Just reading all your bad behavior posts is proof enough that you are all clueless, clueless, clueless.

      Keep bumping into those walls with the older generation. Your baloney may fly with other know-nothings in your generation that do nothing but gripe and complain about everything society has built, yet your so arrogant, you want to tear it down because of being clueless. Then you boast about science ... yet, none of you are in the field, just what you see on TV sitting there like tree stumps, shoving potato chips down your throats.

      Amen.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:03 pm |
    • Silver Chair

      @David Johnson

      Wow! You're long-winded responses are one of the best cures for my insomnia. Thanks!

      March 11, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
    • CW

      @ David Johnson,

      here is your long post in short text...."I need proof to believe anything". I can't see gravity but I know it exists...let me ask is it gravity...or is really a force field but we believe its gravity so that is what we call it now.

      So if a doctor tells you something.....do you believe it? I'm sure you got to several doctors before you may believe it....but how do you know they are telling the truth?....let me guess...it doesn't have to hit you upside the head but rather you place faith..or trust rather in what they say.

      Glad I don't have to everything hit me upside my head....especially when the proof is in the Bible that has been around for thousands of years.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • secular truther

      @one sad christian don't you know that only pastaforians go to heaven. If you don't repent and convert to worshipping his holy noodleness the flying spaghetti monster you'll face entrenity being an alter boy in a catholic church. Ramen!

      March 11, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      I figure I'd help David out.

      > So if a doctor tells you something.....do you believe it?

      No, I do not believe what a doctor tells me.

      > I'm sure you got to several doctors before you may believe it....but how do you know they are telling the truth?

      I go to one doctor. He tells me what ails me, I accept it. Not on faith.

      > ....let me guess...it doesn't have to hit you upside the head but rather you place faith..or trust rather in what they say.

      Only because you're not smart enough to deduce what actually is happening.

      > Glad I don't have to everything hit me upside my head....especially when the proof is in the Bible that has been around for thousands of years.

      You mean how there are forgeries, additions and outright fabrications in the bible. Yeah, those are trustworthy.

      March 11, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Suz

      I think it's sad that anyone is trying to tell anyone else what they should and should not believe rather than reading this story and taking away from it the really cool notion that this was an intellectual experiment that Jefferson did for his own edification and curiosity. How many intelligent things do YOU do in your spare time that foster real learning? Besides engaging in scintillating debates on CNN message boards, I mean.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Silver Chair As you make the claim that god exists we would like to have proof.. we claim he does not as there is no evidence to to back it up.. You have the burden of proof. The same would be true for me if told you that i have an invisible unicorn in my house.. you could not prove me wrong, it would be up to me to show you evidence that it does.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Heaven sent.. so your response to not being able to prove anything is just string of attempted insults. Why are we dry and brittle.. you just say any nonsense and it is meaningless. I have great life with out any supernatural belief,, I am the same as you except i have no belief in your god. The belief that we cannot be good with out god is central to your belief..If you were honest, I bet you see things do not make sense, but attribute anything to either one of two supernatural beings.. god or satan. I do not expect you to change your mind at all, or any one else. We point a out evidence you ignore, so be it. We are just waiting for your evidence.. if it works I will believe.. but until then, I fear nothing.

      March 11, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • Leslie

      Evolved DNA – I could convince you of unicorns but you would have to take a drug to do it. LOL!

      March 11, 2011 at 2:56 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Catholic mom.. poor example...I met my wife at school and we have been married for 37 years, we are very close. We do love unconditionally..As i said, we have a great life travel the world, have two sons who both are pilots. I have religious friends and have no issues, we look after each others houses while we are away. I am as "good" as any believer. I do not dislike believers at all.. i find them very nice people for the most part.. as are we... I think there are some believers who think that they are superior to others who cause the trouble. I have no doubts that those who write on this blog truly believe.

      March 11, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • Mark

      @HeavenSent...

      I couldn't agree more with your as-sessment. However, "clueless" might be giving these bafoons to much credit. Rarely do I look at a "Belief Blog" story and NOT find one of these trolls' names on the first page of the posts (David Johnson, EvolvedDNA, Reality, and the like). A bunch of mouth breathers sitting around waiting for the next story to come up so they can hop in and put their ignorance on display yet again. Parading their self proclaimed "intelligence" and lifting high the banner of "science" and "reason". Mocking believers, insulting and blaspheming God in the process. Probably couldn't put together enough real scientific knowledge to fill a paper cup if you put all of them in the same room. There is nothing in the Bible that conflicts with real science. Even the most brilliant non-believing scientists will tell you that there is no "proof" for evolution. Nothing about evolution is even remotely scientific. Evolution is merely a religious belief. Totally consistent with a Humanistic mind set. A mind set that says "Man is a god". Which is why athiests argue so hard against Creation. If there's no Creator, then I answer to no one. I can make my own rules and do what I want.

      One thing needs to be made clear when athiests argue that "science" is proof for evolution and the non-existence of God.
      The kind of science that makes the claim for evolution is NOT the same science that gives us the great quality of life that most of us have everyday (medicine, cars, electricity, airplanes, cell phones, etc). All of those scientific principles can be KNOWN. They can be measured in a lab. Theories can be developed and tested. The results are repeatable.

      The science that claims evolution is absolutely, 100%, subjective. It's totally succeptable to the pre-concieved notions, and biases of the person performing the test. Anyone that tells you that the "fossil record" shows monkey to man evolution is a blooming idiot. They do NOT know what they're talking about. Anyone that tells you there are "transitional fossils" are just plain liars (sorry...no way to get around that one). Anyone that tells you that "science" says the Earth is 6 billion years old has forgotten to tell you than there are many credible scientists who disagree and there are many discrepancies in the dating methods. Actually, there is a host of data that suggests the Earth is much younger.

      Don't be fooled. The Bible and science don't disagree. They're in perfect harmony. And there are a lot of credible, phD scientists who will tell you the same thing.

      Cheerios...

      March 11, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Mark, I always wonder how they put one foot in front of the other, as they're constantly have one or both in their mouths every time that pie hole is opened. It's funny that just because someone once called them sonny, doesn't make any of them bright.

      Peace.

      March 11, 2011 at 6:39 pm |
    • Sharon

      Mark are you sure you are not HS masking as another name. LOL!

      "The science that claims evolution is absolutely, 100%, subjective. It's totally succeptable to the pre-concieved notions, and biases of the person performing the test. Anyone that tells you that the "fossil record" shows monkey to man evolution is a blooming idiot"

      Guess what the same could be said about the bible, especially since it was written well after Jesus was dead. That means it too was subjective.

      Also "biases of the person" has been proven that the translators of the bible added text and edited it, not to mention the 1000 translations of it and 100's of different versions of Christianity. .Too funny, it only shows you are both hypocrites for agreeing. LOL!

      March 11, 2011 at 7:39 pm |
    • Mark

      @Sharon...

      "The Bible was written after Jesus was dead".

      Actually, most of the Bible was written BEFORE Jesus was even BORN. The books of the old testament were written several 1000's of years before Jesus. Moses wrote the first 5 books of "The Law". King David wrote the Psalms. Solomon wrote Ecclesiates and the Proverbs, etc etc. All these men lived before Jesus. Just wanted to mention that.

      Secondly, what frieking difference does it make WHEN the New Testament was written. Before or after Christ's death, what's the difference? If I had been alive at that time, and had followed Jesus daily and knew all about him and then had decided to write a book about his life, would it have been any less true if I had written the book AFTER he died? The writers of the Gospels wrote about what they saw and experienced.

      And no, I'm not HS in "disguise"....LOL

      Cheerios...

      March 11, 2011 at 8:05 pm |
    • Medardus

      @Mark

      Please explain how we can see any stellar object that is more than 6000 light years away.

      March 11, 2011 at 10:35 pm |
    • hlldcrstn

      @David Johnson

      Here are all your points as to why Christians are stupid fools, some of the questions I combined to answer, but I think that I answered all of them at somepoint in my answer to your “impossible” questions.
      “Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone to know He exists and is the one true god?”
      – If you knew everything about your spouse, would you want to know EVERYTHING about them? probably not. Same goes with Christians and God, if we knew everything there is to know about him, then what would be the point.
      “If the Christian God existed, this fact would be more obvious.
So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god.”
      – I’m pretty sure he did make it obvious, but because we humans have freewill, we do not have to believe, therefore, many don’t becasue they choose not to. It doesn’t matter what you say about science, condritictions or what not, you still made the concious choice to not believe, whether that be the right or wrong decision.
      “The Christian God's existence is not, in fact, as obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists.”
      – It’s fairly obvious to me, but of course I have an open mind, so I can see the connection
      “In the same vein as the above, notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000). Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god. All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.”
      – Your right, it can be misinterpreted, but so can anything that has ever existed be misinterrupted, the Bible is no exception. This again falls under Freewill, and the fact that we can chose what to believe, or how to interpret it, whether we are right or wrong.
      “Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.”
      – I don’t think it matters what denomination you’re in, I personally think that those people who think that way are a$$ holes.
      “If the Christian god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.
People attempt to discover and comprehend god's wants, by reading the bible.”
      – I’m pretty sure you said this argument already. but again I say, if you knew everything about God, then what would be special in that? and of course people read the Bible, it is what we have to try and understand God’s story, are you saying that becasue it’s a book that it is false? If I can recall, basically everything we know about History either comes from books, artwork, or in some other written form.
      “Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled.
We don't want to postulate what isn't necessary.”
      – Science and God don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I personally know (myself included) many Christians who believe in evolution and believe that dinosaurs existed BEFORE humans. I wouldn’t call God a filler, I would call him an enhancer. He created science, and left us to discover what was hidden within it.
      “If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ?”
      – Freewill. If we are forced to love God, then it isn’t really love, and in the creation story (I’ll get to that one later) God gave them a choice, Eat the fruit or don’t eat it. He let them decide on THEIR OWN FREE WILL. God doesn’t bring or allow suffering, in a sense it is our choice to allow it, and God has the power to stop it, but he doesn’t, because then that would diminish our free will and thus our Love.
      9) “Christians say their god is omnibenevolent (all good); omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient ( all knowing)”
      a. If the Christian god is all good, He would want to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      – I’m pretty sure he wants to end the world of suffering, but then that would end our freewill.
      If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be able to rid the world of suffering / evil.
      – again, the whole freewill thing.
      10) “The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.”
      – God isn’t bound by time, so he isn’t bound to the past, present nor future.
      “Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.”
      acctually, not really. Many (most from where I’m from) don’t take the creation story literally. We take it as an account that says that God created the world. It was put into words that the Israelites could understand. There would be NO WAY that they would be able to comprehend evolution during that time. They say the Bible was written in 7 days, becasue that was the Hebrew way of saying that it was perfect, because in that culture 7 is a “perfect” number. There are acctually two creation stories in the Bible, and many God hater’s use that as a way to denounce the Bible. But the thing is, is that HOW God created the world isn’t the point. The point is, is that he did, whether that be by a Big Bang, the actual 7 days, or some other way that we don’t know about.
      “How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist. And if god didn't create them, who did?”
      – I don’t believe that God intended them or made them to be evil, but I believe that because we are a fallen people, they were twisted into that way.
      “If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.”
      – I don’t think that a literal Adam and Eve existed, I think that it was a story to show the Israelites how we came to be the way we are.
      “If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.”
      – I think that the original sin is something that happens to each of us, and because we have all committed our own original sin, we have allowed suffering in the world, again this is because of FREE WILL.
      “If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.”
      – The original sin is, in my opinion, a personal choice that we have all made, and since we have all sinned, therefore we need a redeemer.
      “If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible.
LOL, which is why the fundies fight so hard against evolution.”
      – Why? I can accept that the creation story is a metaphor and still believe just fine. But that is why the fundies fight so hard to say evolution is a big trick, the take it literally.

      March 11, 2011 at 10:47 pm |
    • Mark

      @Medardus...

      First off, let me say I'm no astro-physicist. I've tried to find material on such a complex topic that explains different theories in laymans terms that I can understand. I'm fully aware that one of the most perplexing issues surrounding the creation model of the universe is the question of how we could see starlight from millions of light years away if the universe was much younger. Did God create light in transit? Was light faster in the past? There is a book I'll recommend. Starlight, Time and the New Physics. It was written by Dr. John Hartnett. He goes into the science and math behind the theories and I'll let you read the book for yourself.
      It a nutshell, the Bible talks about God "stretching" out the heavens. It mentions this several times (Psalms 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 44:24).

      Now, I'm not sitting here saying that the phrase, "God stretched out the Heavens" totally explains everything, end of story. I agree, there is a scientific, mathematical explanation. I'm merely saying that the Bible could be giving us a clue.

      March 11, 2011 at 11:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sharon, no I'm not using another handle. Mark is another blogger and obviously has more patience to deal with you.

      David Johnson, God reveals to us (meaning all of us) what He wants us to know about His truth at different points in time. The sciences are proving His writings in the Bible to be His truth. It's you non-believers that don't know how to read the Bible or for some reason don't care to read the Bible. Either way, believers know we need to cross reference the various Books in the Bible to uncover His truth. Keep our minds open (humble) to comprehend what Jesus is revealing. You non-believers need to catch up with believers and uncover the other mysterious in the Bible without bashing His truth. Also, believers reference English words in the Bible back to the Hebrew, Greek, etc. to get a clearer meaning of definitions to their words. There is a lot more going on with reading the Bible than meets the eyes. If you care to join us. Fine. If you insist on bashing His truth without knowing what His truth is. You have the right to remain in the dark.

      March 12, 2011 at 9:18 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Mark

      You said: "Even the most brilliant non-believing scientists will tell you that there is no "proof" for evolution. Nothing about evolution is even remotely scientific."

      You are a joke. You make my sides aches, Sparky!

      Wikipedia:
      "The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, anthropology, and others. One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists. About 0.15%) ... give credence to creation-science". An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters states that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution".

      In 1986, an amicus curiae brief, signed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners, 17 state academies of science and 7 other scientific societies, asked the US Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard, to reject a Louisiana state law requiring the teaching of creationism (which the brief described as embodying religious dogma). This was the largest collection of Nobel Prize winners to sign anything up to that point, providing the "clearest statement by scientists in support of evolution yet produced."

      There are many scientific and scholarly organizations from around the world that have issued statements in support of the theory of evolution. The American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society with more than 130,000 members and over 262 affiliated societies and academies of science including over 10 million individuals, has made several statements and issued several press releases in support of evolution.

      Academy of Sciences that provides science advice to the nation, has published several books supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and intelligent design."

      All organisms on our little planet evolved. The Creation story is a myth. If the Creation story is fiction, then how can any of it be believed? Evolution is a finger poking your god in the eye. LOL!

      All true science follows the same scientific method. Different disciplines work on different things, but the same method is employed. This includes Evolution. Junk science, like intelligent design, does not comply with those principals.

      You said: ""transitional fossils" are just plain liars (sorry...no way to get around that one)"
      Fundies ignore evidence. It is the only way they can keep their beliefs alive.

      Check out these lists of transitional fossils:

      http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html
      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

      Cheers!

      Damn! I do love me some the idiot fundies.

      Cheers!

      March 12, 2011 at 10:21 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I notice that the non-believers not only want to put us to sleep with their lengthy copied and pasted requests written by like minds of non-believers years ago, but want us to do all the work for them so they can still refuse His truth and believe the lies of satan. How about if CNN let us post the entire Bible for your review? That should settle your confusion of why you insist on keeping your bad behaviors. I bet all your parents made you leave the house as soon as you hit your 18th birthday. Yes, to allow them peace of mind while you were let out in the world to blog and annoy us. All followers of Eddie Haskell.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:20 pm |
    • Mark

      @David Johnson...

      Wikipedia....that's your definative source....LOL

      I could take your post, go through and replace every one of your references to evolutionist scientists with a reference of mine to creation scientists and it would read the same way. Geez dude, open your mind JUST a little. The statement of yours that there are only 700 scientists that believe in creationism is truly one of your stupidest to date. Was Wikipedia the ONLY place you looked DJ?! A book I was reading the other day had a list of at least 10,000 credible, phD, research scientists that believed evolution was bunk and creationsim was a better way to explain ALL of the evidence. I could provide the list if you'd like.

      Please, dont make references to the "scientific method" because you obviously don't know what it is kiddo (might try Wikipedia on that one).

      Cheerios...

      March 12, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • Observer

      Why not post the whole Bible? There are plenty of Christians who would rather preach than follow the Bible. That's why so many of them have forgotten the Golden Rule while they are trashing others such as gays while ignoring the sins of fellow Christians

      March 12, 2011 at 12:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Evolved DNA, I'm only writing Jesus' scripture from Ezekiel 37. Dry bones. Those that refuse to learn His wisdom have no spiritual aliveness in them. Walking, talking, spiritually dead, dry bones. I'm happy that you believe you have a great life. I know it would be 1000 times better if you followed Jesus' truth. I know you will debate this. No need. How would you know if you don't know?

      Peace.

      March 16, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Observer, the Golden Rule is mostly Jesus' wisdom, sprinkled in with a few other spiritual thinkers of the world.

      Amen.

      March 16, 2011 at 4:26 pm |
  20. David Johnson

    Jefferson is our finest founding father! There are some, who try to smear him, because he was definitely not for a Christian Nation.

    Thank god for Jefferson and thank god for the first amendment.

    Cheers!

    March 11, 2011 at 9:13 am |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      I am going to break these up into separate comments.

      I asked: “Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone to know He exists and is the one true god?”

      You replied: " If you knew everything about your spouse, would you want to know EVERYTHING about them? probably not. Same goes with Christians and God, if we knew everything there is to know about him, then what would be the point."

      My reply: I didn't understand your first sentence. "If I know everything about my spouse, would I want to know EVERYTHING about them? What are you talking about? That is dumb.

      You then said: "Same goes with Christians and God, if we knew everything there is to know about him, then what would be the point."

      My reply: The Christian god, being omniscient and omnipotent, would know exactly how much of Himself to reveal, how much evidence would be necessary, so that everyone would believe in Him. Not just the existing Christians. duhhh!

      I cited a biblical passage as evidence, that the Christian god does indeed desire everyone believe in Him.

      Yet, everyone does not believe in Him. There are many religions. Many gods. The Christian god, with the given characteristics and desires,does not exist.

      Your explanation was lame.

      Cheers!

      March 12, 2011 at 10:44 am |
    • HeavenSent

      David, the only thing lame is your continuation to love your sinful nature. Keep holding onto them ... all the way down, down, down. Then it's too late. Your choice, either listen to those that know God's truth and spiritually live while here on earth and the hereafter, or listen to others like yourself, that don't know His truth, don't care to know His truth, or better yet, buy into all the baloney destroying and denying His truth.

      March 12, 2011 at 12:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      All the non-believers as they call themselves today are communists. That's what you are so go by the real name that you claim yourselves to be because you keep switching names ever since Jesus named you fools that refuse to learn His wisdom.

      Amen.

      March 14, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • claybigsby

      dont feed the troll.

      March 14, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.