House panel considers 'In God We Trust'
March 17th, 2011
11:58 AM ET

House panel considers 'In God We Trust'

By Gabe LaMonica, CNN

The House Judiciary Committee is scheduled to vote Thursday on a measure to reaffirm “In God We Trust” as the national motto and to encourage its display on public buildings, including schools.

U.S. Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Virginia, is sponsoring the measure on the national motto, adopted in 1956.

Critics say the vote is purely political.

"Of course none of this is necessary," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, a Washington advocacy group.

“No organization or group of graffiti artists is going around trying to cover up” the motto, he said. "This is all part of a silly season that usually occurs closer to election cycles."

Still, Lynn says he objects to the motto.

“Many American people believe in no God or in multiple gods, so the motto should be 'In God, or in no God, or in multiple gods we trust,'” he said.

Forbes has said that his resolution is a response to what he calls the increasing secularization of the public square.

“Over the past several years, there have been growing efforts to strip references to America’s religious heritage, including our national motto, from federal buildings, documents and ceremonies across the nation," he said in introducing the measure last year.

"But our laws and our Constitution do not require exclusion of God from matters of government and public life," he said. "This resolution seeks to reaffirm the foundation upon which our nation was built and acknowledges that trust in God is embedded into the fabric of society and history in the United States.”

Forbes' office says the bill has 56 cosponsors.

The debate over the “In God We Trust” motto is over a century old, with President Theodore Roosevelt arguing that it should not appear on coins, a practice that dates to the 1860s.

“It seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps or advertisements," Roosevelt wrote in 1907.

But he supported the phrase in other places.

“A beautiful and solemn sentence such as the one in question,” Roosevelt wrote, “should be treated and uttered only with that fine reverence which necessarily implies a certain exultation of spirit."

He encouraged its display on national monuments and "wherever it will inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon."

The motto has appeared on paper currency since 1957.

The constitutionality of the motto on money has been unsuccessfully challenged in court, though the Supreme Court has declined to hear those cases.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Church and state • Politics

soundoff (169 Responses)
  1. Muneef

    Yiah have found a nice one for you to quote;
    "In God we Rust"
    that tells so much the you are no longer believers in God...!?

    March 18, 2011 at 9:00 pm |
    • Muneef

      Very nice one that is ; "In God we Rust" all you had to do is take out the T.Party and it becomes Rust rather than Trust..

      March 18, 2011 at 9:02 pm |
  2. Methusalem

    Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

    March 18, 2011 at 8:51 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Thank you!!! Now we know who's going to get the salad...

      March 18, 2011 at 9:31 pm |
  3. civiloutside

    The other motto is better: E Pluribus Unum.

    Out of many, one.

    This is the motto that truly represents America's foundational values.

    March 18, 2011 at 3:11 pm |
    • hilltop

      It also resembles the Tower of Babel.

      March 18, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
    • civiloutside

      Almost... Except for entirely not.

      March 22, 2011 at 1:02 pm |
  4. PRISM1234

    ....."Please st'op pu'tt'in'g qu'ot'at'io'ns eve'rywh'ere."

    My QUOTATIONS are not hard to read, and are far less annoying and (my) time wasting then their flawed "awaiting moderation' screen test for posting......!
    As for the rest of your comment.... maybe I just happen to see things more clearer then those who are so used to the things they away thy are because they've been steeped in them for so long, , and can't discern what's really happening!
    This is the case with majority of American church goers, or else why are thy supp'orting the wolves in sheep's clothing who only take them for a ride to gain their political powers? Could it be because they have taken their eyes off of the One whom they are supposed to follow? You answer that one!

    March 18, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • PRISM1234

      "....are so used to the things they away thy are because....
      Meant to say:
      ..... are so used to the thihgs the way they are, because ....

      March 18, 2011 at 3:09 pm |
    • privacy

      So: Why are the majority of American church goers supporting wolves in sheep's clothing?

      That's a fantastic question.

      What is it about church that convinces an individual to support someone they would normally have no reason to support?

      How is it that "wolves" are so easily able to take advantage of church goers?

      Perhaps it's because church, and religion in general, fosters an environment of blindly listening to authority (as opposed to independent thinking), silences criticisms (as opposed to open discussion), and treats "faith" (belief without evidence) as a virtue (as opposed to requiring evidence to influence beliefs).

      March 18, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
  5. Mr Spockk

    As a non-believer I adamantly oppose this silly motto on the currency that I have to use. It bothers me to have god on me all of the time just because I have some lose change in my pocket- I certainly have no trust in him.

    March 18, 2011 at 2:59 pm |
  6. PRISM1234

    I came here to this country a few decades ago. I read the Cons'ti'tution and other wri'tings of this cou'ntry's fore-fathers, as well as other his'torical wr'itings about how this country came to be. There is no doubt in my mind that those who came here first, and those who established it, were people who hono'red God, and knew that without Him no society nor civ'iliz'ation can exist, and for those who depart from Him will see de'terio'ration, coll'apse and des'truc'tion as their des'tin'ation.
    When those people wrote the Cons'ti'tution, they wrote it with the future generations in mind, but they never fores'aw that the co'rrup'tion of human character will become so pre'valent in our times and will so po'll'ute their beloved land, that those who don't honor God of their fore-fathers will even try to change the laws, tw'is'ting the in'tents of the people who wrote the very doc'ument for their prote'ction in mind , just so they can ind'ulge in their own ways, calling them "ex'pre'ss'ions of freedom"...
    I don't believe the point of imp'ort'ance here is whet'her or not the mo'tto "In God We Trust" is wri'tten on our money or the buildings made of sto'ne, but what the heart of the ma'tter is, and the in'tents of those eff'orts to remove it.....
    I will tell you something that I have seen, long ago, just cou'ple of years into my being here in this coun'try.... I have seen the de'part'ure from ho'nesty, in'teg'rity, mo'ral and et'hical fund'a'men'tals, and such hyp'ocr'isy, even in those who sit in the pe'ws on the day of worship, thinking they know God, but ig'nore the injustice this greed – rid'den sy'stem we have allows to flou'rish in our mid'st.... And seeing the de'teri'or'ation of all what was good and sound, and dep'art'ure from what's good, just and God-ho'no'ring, being replaced with mate'rial'ism, god'less'ness and ever present arr'ogance of so many American people who bo'ast of greatness of America, not seeing it's dep'art'ure fro what's good and right, I said to my spo'use long ago words that sound pro'foun'dly pro'ph'etic: THE DAY THIS COUNTRY IN HER PRIDE AND ARR'OG'ANCE DE'CLARES IT'S INDE'PEND'ENCE FROM GOD, AND WITH FINAL GEST'URE OF SELF-WILL, REMOVES 'IN GOD WE TRUST' , TOS'SING HIM OUT OF IT'S PRE'SENCE, HE WILL LIFT HIS HAND OF MERCY AND PRO'TE'CTION FROM IT, AND IT WILL SEE THE THINGS HAPPEN IN IT, WHICH THIS COUN'TRY HAS NEVER SEEN. Let God be true, and every man a li'ar!

    March 18, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • Muneef

      God is the principal of principals and he who had tought us that in his books;

      Where did the country went wrong or strayed from the right path..for example let us revise few of those lost?

      1. Ethics, as a basic principle.
      2. Integrity.
      3. Responsibility.
      4. Respect to the laws & rules.
      5. Respect to the rights of other citizens.
      6. Work loving.
      7. Strive for saving & investment.
      8. Will of super action.
      9. Punctuality.

      March 18, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
    • privacy

      1. Please st'op pu'tt'in'g qu'ot'at'io'ns eve'rywh'ere.
      2. I agree that we have a very corrupt government and citizenry. Did you know that 78% of the people in the US claim to be Christian? So perhaps religion is the PROBLEM? Perhaps YOUR mentality is the problem? If belief in God is so awesome, and 90% of Americans believe in God, then why is everything still corrupt? Your position is incredibly flawed, and your inability to research basic facts and calculate logical conclusions based on evidence is the reason this society is crumbling. Declaring something to your wife does not make it so.

      March 18, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • Al Bluengreenenbrownenburger

      No, the people who came here first came across a land bridge from Siberia 12,000 years ago. The first Europeans were colonists from various countries – Spain, Holland, and England – who came in search of wealth, for themselves and for their country. Various splinter faction religious groups did come in after that, be predominantly those coming did so for economic opportunity. New York, for example, was always a place for business that had quite a range of different peoples and beliefs co-existing, even in it's earliest Dutch iteration (which preceded the arrival of the first Puritans by years).

      This country was not founded on religion. Sorry, but that myth is just flagrantly untrue, despite being flogged around by religious dimwits. Most of the people who we call Founding Fathers were keenly aware that religion was almost always opposed to the liberties they held so dear.

      March 18, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • Muneef

      Al-Kahf sura 18:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious. (54) And naught hindereth mankind from believing when the guidance cometh unto them, and from asking forgiveness of their Lord unless (it be that they wish) that the judgment of the men of old should come upon them or (that) they should be confronted with the Doom. (55) We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest. (56) And who doth greater wrong than he who hath been reminded of the revelations of his Lord, yet turneth away from them and forgetteth what his hands send forward (to the Judgment)? Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright. (57) Thy Lord is the Forgiver, Full of Mercy. If He took them to task (now) for what they earn, He would hasten on the doom for them; but theirs is an appointed term from which they will find no escape. (58) And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. (59).

      March 18, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      What sort of God decides to inflict harm on "people he loves" simply because they won't pay attention to him.

      How egotistical and shallow your God is.

      March 18, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
    • Muneef

      Our God is the creator of universe and the only God. God loves those who love him and stay in link with him in worship and prayers....other than those who are seeking his love are no others that he loves...

      March 18, 2011 at 8:54 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Muneef: you need help...

      Just endlessly parroting mind-numbing doctrine doesn't demonstrate even a smidgen of intelligence.

      Religion is a FRAUD... one is either a victim or one is a perpetrator...

      March 19, 2011 at 1:43 am |
  7. privacy

    Why don't we have a motto that everyone can agree on without causing such a negative backlash?

    How about something like... "May Truth Triumph over Ignorance"? Christians, Conspiracy Theorists, Atheists could probably both agree to that..?

    Something generic like that...

    March 18, 2011 at 12:56 pm |
    • fro

      And what is truth?

      March 19, 2011 at 9:18 am |
  8. Doc Vestibule

    If the slogan on their uniforms is to be believed, God was with the Wehrmacht as well.

    March 18, 2011 at 8:04 am |
    • AnnoyMouse

      "Got mit uns" or something like that, right? Catholics and Lutherans seeking to bring a "holy empire" to the world while destroying those nasty Jesus-killing Jews at the same time. It almost worked. Mass delusion almost won that time, but our delusions worked out better.

      March 18, 2011 at 9:47 am |
    • Mr. Sniffles

      Almost all countries throughout history have invoked their god/gods in wars to solidify obedience for the carnage to come. Interestingly, the secular democracies are form of government least likely to go to war.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:27 am |
  9. Reality

    "In Us, We Trust!! "

    March 18, 2011 at 8:01 am |
    • hilltop

      An accurate indictment!

      March 18, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Absolutely, Reality. I imagine that Hilltop practices safe faith.. will depend on his fellow man if his/her life is in mortal danger, but willing to espouse that faith helped him in areas that are not important. Some of those wanting to put their life in gods hands find out he is an amputee.

      March 18, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
  10. Shorty

    I agree with Forbes. We have been one nation under God. It is part of our heritage and founding fathers. I believe this is why we are blessed for the wonderful country that we have. If you don't want to look at it, fine don't. No one is forcing you to read it. You probably don't even notice it unless you are harping on it. 80% of Americans believe in God. Stop making such a big fuss about this and do something to contribute to America in a positive way.

    March 18, 2011 at 4:26 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Exodus 2:24


      March 18, 2011 at 6:58 am |
    • Gaunt

      No it isn't. If it was part of our heritage and founding fathers, then why didnt the founding fathers feel the need to include it in the pledge or the currency? Both 'under God' and the 'in god we trust' were put into place long after the founding fathers were turning in their secularist graves, in the case of the former and part of the latter, by conservative fear-mongers after WW2 in response to the threat of communism.

      Dont say its part of the founding fathers when they had nothing to do with it. If you are really concerned with what the counding fathers wanted, then you should absolutely vote to REMOVE 'in God we trust' from the currency.

      March 18, 2011 at 7:14 am |
    • Al Bluegreenenbrownenburger

      Why is it that most people who use the Founding Fathers in some debate are utterly clueless about the Founding Fathers?

      Jefferson and Madison absolutely were insti-tuting the separation of church and state. Their writings are very clear about that. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists; they were not anything like modern Christians. Jefferson made his own "bible" by cutting out the parts he thought were bull (and the result is a very, very thin book) – can you imagine the uproar if Obama did that?

      Please prove what positive way religion contributes to America, because all I see are attempts to oppress things it doesn't like, the support of war and torture, and attempts to turn America into a theocracy. And don't forget the higher crime rates of religious people.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:24 am |
    • Mr. Sniffles

      Yes, people forget that the Founding Fathers were well aware of the fact that Europe had been plagued by nasty religious wars for hundreds of years, and they were trying to avoid that. They knew the horror that comes of having religion controlling government – war, torture, inquisitions, oppression – it was all going on in Europe as they made this country.

      March 18, 2011 at 11:06 am |
  11. HotAirAce

    EVERY time O'Canada is sung at an event I am at, when it comes to "God keep this land." I do not say/sing this line and say out load "There are no gods."..

    March 18, 2011 at 2:23 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Yes, evil collapsed you from within 2nd, after they destroyed Europe from within. Now guess who's being worked on from within?


      March 18, 2011 at 6:54 am |
    • Frederica

      "O Canada"'s second verse on, it's a complete Christian hymn that praises God of the Bible. Canadians don't realize Canada was established to spread Christianity. Non-Western Christians will finish the noble job Western Christians had started and dreamed.

      March 19, 2011 at 2:33 am |
  12. Frederica

    It's only saying immoral America no longer deserves God's blessing.

    March 17, 2011 at 11:58 pm |
    • Mr. Sniffles

      I cannot believe that any true god would be a Nationalist. I would think his love would be more cosmopolitan and universal.

      March 18, 2011 at 3:03 am |
    • HeavenSent


      March 18, 2011 at 6:52 am |
    • AnnoyMouse

      So what good did it do for our country to have such religious nonsense on our money? None. It was a complete waste of time.

      People pray at this gov't meeting, that breakfast prayer group before legislating, and bless everything in sight like a bunch of Popes during a flu epidemic, and our country and government are still in the toilet and getting worse every decade.

      You religious folk are a big FAIL in the "helping our country with your god's help" department.
      May a large tornado shove a blade of hay up your bible passages for all this unhelpful nonsense.

      March 18, 2011 at 9:52 am |
  13. tallulah13

    I certainly wish the republicans would concentrate on job creation, as they claimed they would when they were campaigning for office.

    March 17, 2011 at 11:04 pm |
  14. PsiCop

    If anyone wants me to trust his or her God, s/he's just going to have to make me do it.

    March 17, 2011 at 10:50 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      They're working on it...

      (Did you ever try remaining seated when everyone else stands up for the Pledge of Allegiance – or else leave out the "Under God" paft?? There are many areas in this country where that would be ill-advised...)

      March 18, 2011 at 12:23 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I lived with Americans in my early teen years and though I would rise for the pledge of allegiance out of respect, I would not recite the words.
      This distressed one of my teachers so much (though she knew I was Canadian) that she burst into tears, sent me to the principal's office and called my parents to try and get me in hot water.
      She wasn't pleased when the parental response was "good for him".

      March 18, 2011 at 8:00 am |
    • The Bobinator

      Doc, a fellow canuck. Can you get decent backbacon down there?

      One thing I noticed between the cultures of the US and Canada is that americans are not so much patriotic as nationalistic. Proud in their country, but they don't know why.

      If Canada sucks in something, canadians generally admit it. If the US sucks at something, such as general education levels, they hush up about it.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:36 am |
    • The Bobinator

      I'm not implying that Americans are stupid from the above post. I consider the US education issue to be related to the system.

      The people can vote in people to education boards who don't have a clue about education.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:37 am |
  15. Matthew

    I agree with this resolution, but would like to make it inclusive of Hindu, Wicca n, Agnostic and Atheist American beliefs as well. I propose "In Gods and Goddesses, many of us trust"

    March 17, 2011 at 10:09 pm |
    • Muneef

      Yusuf sura 12:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      O my fellow-prisoners! Are divers lords better, or Allah the One, Almighty? (39) Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers. Allah hath revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who hath commanded you that ye worship none save Him. This is the right religion, but most men know not. (40).

      March 18, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • hilltop

      Sadly, your assessment may be an accurate discription of our country.

      March 18, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
  16. Muneef

    In God we trust....
    Well have been wishing for 25 years that my country would consider adopting such moto on our local currency since I have a feeling that it might recover from it's exchange downfall....but seems most corruptors fears having such moto printed...

    March 17, 2011 at 9:00 pm |
    • Muneef

      Al-Anaam sura 06:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      Eat of that over which the name of Allah hath been mentioned, if ye are believers in His revelations. (118).

      March 18, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
  17. PraiseTheLard

    Enough of these nincompoops who keep on promoting their imbecilic agenda.

    Long Live Dawkins!!

    March 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm |
    • hilltop

      Dawkins and Flew have both conceded the possibility of God. If they are your heroes than you should acknowledge their conclusion. You're getting closer!;)

      March 18, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      I'm perfectly willing to admit that there's a possibility that everything that the religion promoters (take you pick of which – but please don't forget to include some of the Eastern philosophies) said may be true.

      I'm also perfectly willing to admit that there's a possibility the extraterrestrials came here in order to populate this planet.

      Similarly, I'm perfectly willing to admit that there are numerous other theories that may be true – including the one that posits that we're not even here...

      My problem is the constant insistence by a narrowly-focused group to impose their completely implausible beliefs on everyone else.

      March 18, 2011 at 9:25 pm |
  18. Uncomfortable_Truth

    People of weak faith and character feel the need to have their personal viewpoints on divinity publicly affirmed; similarly, they require a codified set of edicts to remind them that it is wrong to kill, steal, or have an affair.

    March 17, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
    • Al Bluengreenenbrownenburger

      And not surprisingly, those who need no codified set of edicts (or religion) have repeatedly been shown to commit less major crime, have fewer divorces, are more against torture and war, and on and on. Humans are naturally more moral without religion than with it.

      March 17, 2011 at 7:40 pm |
    • Jeff

      Faith is believing what you know ain't so – Mark Twain

      March 17, 2011 at 7:46 pm |
    • Jcork

      What Jeff said.

      March 18, 2011 at 3:48 am |
    • KnowGod_NoHope

      I find it, almost, comical how agnostics/atheists are men or women of low character and morals. I guess I'd rather be a heathen, opposed to a man of blind faith. Who, most likely, according to their book, deserved to be stoned to death. Here's an excerpt: They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56 If a man cannot gather sticks to warm his house on the sabbath day (i. e. work to pay the rent–I modernized it for the faithdumb) I'm positive there wouldn't be too many christians left on this planet. Hallelujah brothers and sisters, have no fear, in a thousand years Jesus, still, won't be hear. Keep the faith.

      March 18, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
  19. Jeff

    "IN GOD WE TRUST" is NOT accurate or correct.

    March 17, 2011 at 5:25 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Well, with regard to the decline of the allmighty Dollar, I would go to a gold standard an change it to "Ingot We Trust"...

      The pathetic efforts of the mostly-Republican lawmakers to promote their particular version of mass ignorance are unconscionable, but seeing as there are so many deluded people out there, this country could yet become a theocracy.

      March 17, 2011 at 6:57 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      In America, the scientific ignorance is astounding.

      Over 60% do not know what the planet closest to the sun is. (It's Mercury)

      But here's the kicker.

      Over 70% know that Superman comes from Krypton.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:33 am |
  20. Reality


    "Novus Ordo Seclorum" i.e.

    New Secular Order (appears on the U.S. one-dollar bill)

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/novus-ordo-seclorum#ixzz1GtQI7jtY

    March 17, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
    • Al Bluengreenenbrownenburger

      No, it means "New Order of the Ages"

      March 17, 2011 at 7:31 pm |
    • Reality

      Oops, answers.com apparently has some different takes on "Novus ordo seclorum".

      Take #1

      "Novus Ordo Seclorum"
      "New secular order (appears on the U.S. one-dollar bill) "

      Take #2

      "The phrase Novus ordo seclorum (Latin for "New Order of the Ages") appears on the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States, first designed in 1782 and printed on the back of the United States one-dollar bill since 1935. The phrase also appears on the coat of arms of the Yale School of Management, Yale University's business school. The phrase is often mistranslated as "New World Order".[1]

      Origin and meaning

      The phrase is taken from the fourth Eclogue of Virgil, which contains a passage (lines 5-8) that reads:

      Latin///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// English

      Ultima Cu-maei venit iam carminis ætas; Now comes the final era of the Sibyl's song;
      Magnus ab integro sæclorum nascitur ordo. The great order of the ages is born afresh.
      iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna, And now justice returns, honored rules return;
      iam nova progenies cælo demitti-tur alto. now a new lineage is sent down from high heaven. "

      The forms saecla, saeclorum etc. were normal alternatives to the more common saecula etc. throughout the history of Latin poetry and prose. The form saeculorum is impossible in hexameter verse: the ae and o are long, the u short by position. For the medieval exchange between ae, æ and e, see Æ; the word medieval (mediæval) itself is another example."

      Medieval Christians read Virgil's poem as a prophecy of the coming of Christ. The Augustan Age, although pre-Christian, was viewed as a golden age preparing the world for the coming of Christ. The great poets of this age were viewed as a source of revelation and light upon the Christian mysteries to come. [2]

      The word seclorum does not mean "secular", as one might assume, but is the genitive (possessive) plural form of the word saeculum, meaning (in this context) generation, century, or age. Saeculum did come to mean "age, world" in late, Christian Latin, and "secular" is derived from it, through secularis. However, the adjective "secularis," meaning "worldly," is not equivalent to the genitive plural "seclorum," meaning "of the ages."[3]

      Thus the motto Novus ordo seclorum can be translated as "A new order of the ages." It was proposed by Charles Thomson, the Latin expert who was involved in the design of the Great Seal of the United States, to signify "the beginning of the new American Era" as of the date of the Declaration of Independence.

      Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/novus-ordo-seclorum#ixzz1Gv0f8dcs

      March 17, 2011 at 11:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Dry bones, wells without waters, spiritually dead, blinded by sin ... constantly going against Jesus' truth as was in the beginning, to the end of days. NEW WORLD ORDER being ushered in ... all is written. Jesus destroys ALL evil.


      March 18, 2011 at 6:48 am |
    • The Bobinator

      Dry bones, wells without waters, spiritually dead, blinded by sin ... constantly going against Jesus' truth as was in the beginning, to the end of days. NEW WORLD ORDER being ushered in ... all is written. Jesus destroys ALL evil.

      Allow me to translate:

      I've been intellectually trounced time and time again, so instead of putting out ideas that will be shown for the sillyness that they are, I'll stick to broad based characterizations to villify them so I don't have to consider their points.

      March 18, 2011 at 8:01 am |
    • LJ

      The Bobinator I've been intellectually trounced time and time again, so instead of putting out ideas that will be shown for the sillyness that they are, I'll stick to broad based characterizations to villify them so I don't have to consider their points."

      You realize your statement is filled with silliness too right. Let me translate into layman's terms then.... In a court of law, there are people who are condemned to die based upon circu-mstantial evidence. There are at times witnesses who take the stand that have questionable lifestyles, but the jury chooses based upon other evidence, to believe the testimony of a witness. We understand that if we quote a historian, that the historian may not be perfect in their comments and observations, but the overall evidence will confirm many of their statements. If you use the principles that any juror would to determine the truth, then you would realize archeology and historians continue to prove the stories in the Bible. Are you searching for truth or lo-oph-oles? You can always find the lo-oph-oles, especially when it comes to filing your taxes. Yes, our judicial system isn't perfect either and that is the point, but you have to start somewhere to determine what is truth and what is not.

      March 18, 2011 at 8:27 am |
    • The Bobinator

      > You realize your statement is filled with silliness too right.

      Really? I'm intrigued. I always am up for learning something new. I just hope it's not a long winded rambling post that has absolutely nothing to do with my original point, which is to accurately characterize the motivations behind a poor post.

      > Let me translate into layman's terms then.... In a court of law, there are people who are condemned to die based upon circu-mstantial evidence. There are at times witnesses who take the stand that have questionable lifestyles, but the jury chooses based upon other evidence, to believe the testimony of a witness. We understand that if we quote a historian, that the historian may not be perfect in their comments and observations, but the overall evidence will confirm many of their statements. If you use the principles that any juror would to determine the truth, then you would realize archeology and historians continue to prove the stories in the Bible.

      The first problem with your argument is that there are false convictions in the judicial system. Law is not a path to truth. It's simply a way to as fairly as possible, settle a dispute.

      The second problem is that the comparison between evidence in a court of law is not comparable to historical opinion and archeology. They have different rules, different stances on evidence and have a different scope. In general, courts of law use facts to prove a point. Where as in history, facts are used to craft an opinion, because the truth isn't provable.

      The final problem with your argument is that you assert that historians continue to prove the bible, but you leave out historians that say bible events didn't happen. Like the slaughter of babies when Jesus was born, or the 40 years wantering in exodus. You're misrepresenting the true nature of the historal community. They're actually quite torn.

      >Are you searching for truth or lo-oph-oles? You can always find the lo-oph-oles, especially when it comes to filing your taxes. Yes, our judicial system isn't perfect either and that is the point, but you have to start somewhere to determine what is truth and what is not.

      You have this mistaken idea that we can find out the truth. We can't. We can only try to figure out what the truth is from our frame of reference, or to put it better, our reality. The only method that has been proven to expand our knowledge of reality and our toolbox of logic is the scientific method.

      The truth might be that gravity doesn't occur because matter attracts matter. It might be leprechauns who pull things down because they're greedy and want everything for themselves. However, that lies outside our reality. We can only make intelligent decisions on what we know.

      Of course, if you have a better idea as to what we can use to expand our knowledge of reality, I'm all ears.

      Nicely written post, but the argument fails due to what I listed above.

      March 18, 2011 at 10:09 am |
    • Mr. Sniffles

      "Jesus destroys"

      March 18, 2011 at 10:13 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.