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March 19th, 2011
01:00 AM ET
Rob Bell punches back against claims of heresyBy Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor New York (CNN) - For two weeks while controversy swirled around him, Pastor Rob Bell stayed silent. His critics said he was playing fast and loose with heaven and hell, salvation and damnation. The eternity of souls was on the line, they said. All this was over Bell’s new book, “Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.” Critics tore into it before the book even hit store shelves on Tuesday, some going so far as to label Bell a heretic. The controversy pushed the book into the third spot on Amazon’s sales ranking, virtually assuring the book a place on The New York Times Best Sellers list. On Monday night, dressed in black and sporting his trademark black-rimmed glasses, Bell strolled quietly into the auditorium of the New York Ethical Culture Society. This was his chance to hit back. “I never set out to be controversial,” Bell told CNN before the event. “I don’t think it’s a goal that God honors. I don’t think it’s a noble goal. “What’s interesting to me is what’s true. And what’s interesting to me is what’s inspiring. And what’s interesting to me is where’s the life? Where’s the inspiration? That’s what I’m interested in. If that happens to stir things up, that was never my intent, but I’ll accept that.” Bell said he was surprised by the controversy around his book. Critics said he was preaching universalism, a theology that suggests everyone goes to heaven and hell is empty. “I’m not a universalist. So that’s just not true.” He reiterated that again in the event that evening where he expounded on that idea and said that he didn’t believe God reaches down and sweeps everyone to heaven. 'Good environment for dialogue' After a budding career as a rock star was derailed by a freak illness, Bell set his sights on the seminary. Now, at 40, he has risen to become America’s hipster pastor and one of the most influential preachers in the country. He is quick-witted, non-denominational, and he unabashedly loves Jesus. He preaches to 10,000 people at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, Michigan, the church he founded. His first four books sold nearly a million copies combined, and his short film series, Nooma, has sold more than 2 million DVDs. He will tell you he again and again he is a pastor, not a theologian or a biblical scholar. But for a guy who dresses in black, Bell has made his mark examining the gray areas of Christianity. His questioning of traditional approaches without always giving answers has brought him fans and made his critics gnash their teeth. “It’s very appealing because he brings lots of facts and lots of information into it and lots of historical context into whatever discussion he has,” said Kristi Berderon, a 25-year-old Bell fan who drove an hour from New Jersey for the event. “He leaves it open-ended. He lets you think and draw your own conclusions for yourself instead of spoon-feeding what he grew up hearing or what he was taught in seminary.” She and her friend Tommy Hayes are a lot like the others in the crowd tonight: wearing skinny jeans and dark-rimmed glasses - and openly exploring their faith. Berderon’s parents are Southern Baptists; she was home schooled and raised in the church. Today she attends a non-denominational church and self-identifies as a “Christ follower” but bristles at being called a Christian. Danielle Miller and Maryalice Spencer took a two-hour train ride from Walden, New York, to hear Bell speak. They walked 25 blocks and stood in line in the cold to get in. Miller uses Bell’s short films as a discussion starter in her church. “I think it’s always good to ask those hard questions, and I think that’s what he’s doing, and it creates a good environment for dialogue,” Miller said. Bell was in New York City to sit down with Newsweek’s Lisa Miller for a conversation on stage and take questions from the 650 audience members and thousands more watching the event streaming live on the Web.  Bell and Miller on stage at the New York Ethical Culture Society auditorium. Before the crowds arrived, a contemplative Bell settled into a pew to talk with CNN about the book and to answer his critics. The book began, he said, five years ago. “As a pastor, you interact with so many people [that] some of the same questions keep coming up. And ultimately you keep bumping up against what people really think about God.” In his church and around the country, he saw what he considered a misrepresentation of the Christian narrative in the Bible. “At the heart of the Christian story is [the message that] God loves the world and sent his son Jesus to show the world this love. So that’s fundamentally first and foremost the story. God is love and God sent Jesus to show this love. “In our culture Christians are known for a number of other things. … Rarely do you hear people say, ‘Oh yeah, those are the people who never stop talking about love. Oh a Christian church - that’s where you go if feel beaten down and kicked and someone has their boot on your neck. You go there because it’s a place of healing and a place of love.’ “I’m passionate about calling people back to [Christianity’s] roots,” Bell said. 'Theology of evacuation' In his new book, Bell challenges the traditional notions of heaven and hell. “For many people the fundamental story was one of escape - Jesus is how you get out of here. I think for many people in the modern world, the way they heard it was fundamentally, ‘This place is bad, and there is some other place, and Jesus - believe, accept, trust, confess, join, get baptized, whatever sort of language got put on it - Jesus is how you get to some other realm where things are good.’ “So essentially it’s a theology of evacuation. And my understanding is the Bible is first and foremost a story of restoration. It’s a story of renewal.” “The fundamental story arc of the Bible,” he said “is God is passionate about rescuing this world, restoring it renewing it. So discussions about heaven and hell … for many people are irrelevant and esoteric. … But what happens is, what you believe about heaven and hell deeply shapes how you engage this world now.” Bell said if a believer has their eyes on heaven, they can miss the opportunities to bring people a taste of heaven here on Earth - and they can miss seeing the hell around them. “Greed, injustice, the sex trade in Far East Asia, we see hell all around us, whenever people reject what is good and human and right and peaceful and all that,” he said. “I begin with this world right now and the observation that we are free to choose. It’s the nature of love. So then when you die, I would assume [given] the nature of love you can continue to make these types of choices.” For Bell the here and now is just as important as any possible life to come. “I think it’s very very important to point out … [that] we are speculating about after you die,” he said. “In the Jewish context in which [Jesus] lived and moved, you didn’t have that articulated belief system about when you die. It was very rooted in this life - dirt and wine and banquets, family and fishing. [In] his stories, it’s all a very visceral – this world is our home, this world that God loves, that God is redeeming - so that’s the starting point. “I think for many people they were taught you’re either in or out. But Jesus invites us to a journey that’s a fundamentally different way to think about it, and that frees you up from a lot of things that I think haunt people, bind them up and make them miserable. Then it creates all sorts of space for wonder and awe and mystery and the unexpected,” Bell said. His perspective does not line up with many of the traditional views about heaven and hell, of separate spaces and places with streets of gold or lakes of fire. For Christians who see salvation and heaven as crucial elements to their faith, Bell’s message can be abrasive - which in part led to so many people pouncing on his book before it was released. What stirred many critics was a promotional video in which Bell asks whether Mohandas Gandhi, India’s non-violent leader, was in heaven. Bell’s answer offers a good insight into his view of salvation. Bell would not be surprised if he saw Gandhi in heaven. “Jesus was very clear. Heaven is full of surprises. That’s central to Jesus teaching.” Bell insists there is room for mystery in salvation and that Christianity is open to discussion. “The historical orthodox Christian faith is extremely wide and diverse,” Bell said. “No one has the last word other than God. I am taking part in a discussion that’s been going on for thousands of years. Everyone can play a part in that discussion.”
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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He's just another Liberal Christian pushing gay marriage.
If that's his agenda, he's a phony preacher teaching the ways of the world, not Jesus' truth. Only Jesus' truth saves souls. This man does not have the authority to save any souls, including his own. Preachers who do not preach Jesus' truth are the first to be judged. If he were a true follower of Jesus Christ he'd know this. Since, he doesn't know or doesn't care speaks volumes.
I wrote it before and I'll write it again. The sin of Pride and the sin of Lust are blinding anyone living this lifestyle. The only way they can have these sins fall to the wayside is to read the Bible on their own and STOP listening to other sinners leading them to the eternal flames. Misery loves company and this guy surely is miserable (wolf in sheep's clothing) with that big ego blocking him from knowing Jesus' truth. Not knowing Jesus' truth is why he wrote his own book, leading any that pay attention to him astray.
Amen.
"phony preacher" So are you, do you even have any credentials for being a preacher. Probably not and if you did you wasted your money. LOL!
Jesus's words about Hell utilize common ideas that the people of his time espoused. For example – Gehenna was the ever-burning garbage heap outside of town. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus brings to attention the Jewish idea of the afterlife being by Abraham's side. None of these passages are intended to give us a theology of the ins and outs of hell. Are we to believe that Hell is a real place where there is eternal separation from God? Yes, I think so, but I also agree with Rob Bell that any ideas we come up with about what that reality looks like is pure speculation. Let's get off this topic and go do something that matters.
The important issue is separation from God. As a Christian that should be what bothers you.
Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9;
Mark 9:43, 23:15, 33; 45, 47;
Luke 12:5;
James 3:6
Amen.
The world gives a collective "meh" and continues its collective slide into its self-induced oblivion.
Why is cnn heaping so much attention on this man? His ideas may be good, but truly, it seems like they are hyping him. Seems like a proper pr campaign they are waging. It really makes me wonder about cnn.
"Reality" = whatever 'Reality' says is right or wrong.
The 'reality' of the matter is, Science has no flipping clue but insist they know the answers and those that don't align themselves with THEIR answers are narrow-minded fools. Oh, the irony: People that disagree with 'traditional science' are narrow-minded, clueless, followers of the blind leading the blind.
Sound familiar?
Excuse me while I go listen to Hawking once again try to explain to me how matter (the universe) created itself, using scientific, empirical evidence...............reality, you see.
Stephen Hawking, C student.
Amen.
Jesus couldn't even write.
Jesus could write. He allowed men inspired by His Holy Spirit to scribe His truth. God is the author of the Bible.
Amen.
But...Jesus did not write the bible and it was written long after he was dead....hello,...can you hear me now....hello,...how about now
Dave, Jesus is God.
Amen.
Jesus still didn't write the bible.
Luke 19:27...My favorite...Jesus sez "Run a sword through em"...Now that's a savior...
Idiots.
I bet he was talking about your ancestors, goof.
That verse is part of a parable(story) with Jesus speaking in character. That's blatantly taking a verse out of context. I would hope you could raise a more valid objection than that. Especially when calling people idiots.
Actually, read luke 19:11-27. It's a parable. Read the context.
Lee (LOL), the sword of Jesus is His truth. Not the lies of satan that has no sword only deceit to take as many of God's children with him to the eternal flames to be blotted out ... poof, no more.
We all have free will to choose. Love and follow Jesus (truth) and you spiritually live while housed in human form on this earth, as well as through eternity. Love and follow satan (lies) and you die spiritually while housed in human form on this earth as well as through eternity.
Christians read the entire Bible. We know the ending to the His story. You don't. We are trying to tell you Jesus wins and satan looses.
Choose wisely. Your soul depends on it.
Amen.
One thing I've noticed, all the anti-Christians have mean and angry post. Why does Jesus/Christianity stir up such emotions?
They are not all that way, but it's the ones who are that stand out. They are miserable in this world and so desperately need to believe in another, better, one. And when other folks challenge it they get angry because someone is questioning the validity of their fantasy and they feel threatened and cornered and so they become vicious.
Because of the violence done throughout the ages in the name of your "jesus".
Religious Pharisees tend to bring up that reaction....but Phariseeism and orthodox Christianity are two different things. (Just like heresy-ism and orthodoxy are two different things). Sometimes you gotta work through the counterfeits to find the real.
I just wish more could be said to clarify the differences. Phariseeism, heresy-ism, AND atheism are all to be distinguished from orthodox Christianity.
People who are orthodox in their beliefs tend to be orthopractic too (practice what they preach, or repent when they don't). It seems like the closer one gets to orthodoxy, the more honest, yet gracious, should be.
And always remember, just because someone DOESN'T practice what they preach, even though they should, doesn't automatically make their beliefs invalid. If anything, it is further proof that they/we need a Savior.
Why do they appear to be so angry? If you have ever had to tell a 3-year old "NO, you cannot do that" you see the same reaction. If Christianity is true there is a God who rules over all and it infuriates them that they are not in control.
Because Satan is evil and evil hates Truth. Thus, the anger.
Christians know His truth.
The Lord has made all for Himself, yes even the wicked for the day of doom. Proverbs 16:4 (Romans 9:6-24, Psalms 92:5-7)
We debate scriptures so others know His truth. Free will, remember. Follow Jesus (truth) and you live spiritually while house in human form then in the hereafter. Follow satan (lies) and you spiritually die while housed in human form as well as through eternity.
We all have a choice. Choose wisely.
Amen.
It's funny how you choose to reply to most of the posts here, if you really think about it it is NOT something Christ would be doing.
Funny how articles on religion immediately bring out atheists who base their comments on opinions of books written by other atheists, simply to be controversial. As far as Crossan and the Jesus Seminar go, they VOTED on whether sayings of Jesus were authentic, with shoddy scholarship and more opinion.
The truth is that some people will get it and some never will. We all worship some god, whether it's the true God or self. An honest reading of the NT shows that Jesus talked about heaven and hell as real places. Mr. Bell can ascribe actions to God that contradict Scripture, but as he said, that's speculation.
Bottom line? God cannot be known by reason, as atheists insist he must. He can only be known by faith.
"As far as Crossan and the Jesus Seminar go, they VOTED on whether sayings of Jesus were authentic, with shoddy scholarship and more opinion."
How do you think the Bible was put together by early churchmen from old-timey writings? They VOTED on which ones to include.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36, 1 John 2:3-5).
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
"For the wrath of God IS revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. . ." Romans 1:18-32
They will find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth (Matthew 8:12; 22:1-14; 25;14-30; Luke 13:28).
Jesus warned,
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13)
Amen.
Yawn...more of the same old thing copy, paste, copy paste.... how original. Google can be such a great tool for those who can't think for themselves.
LJ, cough, I mean sunshine, you just did (SMILE). They write directly from Jesus truth too.
I thought you weren't going to blog again. Oh, switch those handles (LOL).
Amen.
HS I said I wasn't going to continue arguing with you on the other thread. This other poster is not me, all you are doing is to continue to show you lack more in reading comprehension, please continue. LOL!
Sunshine nice catch, I caught it too that HS was using other sites to post on here. I thought it was more like biblestudy.com or something like that. HS uses the sites to look up and quote scripture like they actually know what they are talking about. There was another poster Jenn who also pointed out the pitfalls to only quoting snippets of text without including the entire scriptures around it, also putting it into historical context, taking into account the cultural habits of the time, etc. This poster is unable to do this which is why they continue misinterpret the true meaning of the scriptures.
Who cares about what this guys says? He is not say or arguing anything that has not already been discussed in the 2,000 years of Christian theology. I don't find this guy extraordinary in any way.
Religion. It's over. Amen!
So says john who has no eyes to see, ears to hear, spiritually walking dead among us, spewing babble nonsense as well without water.
They will find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth (Matthew 8:12; 22:1-14; 25;14-30; Luke 13:28).
Jesus warned,
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13)
Amen.
"spewing babble nonsense as well without water."
Yes, you are spewing or is that foaming at the mouth.
It always happens, when someone believes differently from other Christians, it's heresy.
What I see is a lot of, 'you don't believe as I do' syndrome but of course, I'm right.
Plenty of people disagree with orthodox Christian doctrine without being labeled heretics. Christians even disagree among themselves over some points but there is a set of core non-negotiable doctrines that all who call themselves Christian must accept. Anyone who claims to be a Christian who teaches differently could rightly be labeled a heretic. I do not know if this man's teaching crosses that line or not but it does seem that he is at least getting close.
Michael, you say there is some sort of "core doctrine"?
Could you edify us as to the particulars in your opinion? i.e. What are they?
For I have never heard of anyone agreeing on such a thing. Ever.
Are you Catholic, perchance? Did you know there are "Christians" who point to the passage about "those who only believe" without any qualifications according to the words of "Jesus" himself as the basis for being "Christians"???
Therefore you cannot have a doctrine set in stone, according to anyone who makes the claim.
That is how religious people are ironically at a disadvantage to knowing who actually believes. It can be faked and there is no way to prove different...wait for it....because "faith" requires NO PROOF!
Bwahahahahahahaha!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!
I Ching, these scriptures are some of His truth.
For the wrath of God IS revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. . . Romans 1:18-32
Amen.
History not heresy:
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment.
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan se-cts.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizz-azz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "fil-icider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedo-ph-iliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adu-lterous and ped-ophiliac preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
and it all starts with "probably"
"The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics." And this idea as posted by you is more speculation than fact. Do the actual research to find out how well the comparison between Mitrha and Jesus actually hold up.
I'm guessing that in 2000 years, nobody will know who Chilton, Crossan, and Borg were. Weird that you would say Jesus and Christians throughout history were hallucinating, but accept the "Jesus Seminar" self-promoters as authoritative.
Some references used by contemporary historic Jesus scholars and summarized previously in the updated Apostles' Creed and the History vs. heresy section:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html
14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/
19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/
22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus
Reality, history means His Story. Jesus' truth about Life and the hereafter (the Bible, written by men divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Author is God.
Amen.
Heresy or reality?
The Apostles' Creed 2010: (updated based on the studies of historians and theologians during the past 200 years)
I might believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven.
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
Ya, we've seen this many times. Be original already, unless you are copying off of everyone else, which is ironically, what you say Christians did.
That's gonna leave a mark. Five points for Horvath! Reality gets one demerit for his lack of proofreading skills.
Human beings are not fit to make judgments or pronouncements about eternal destiny: that is an orthodox stance. That means that, as he understands things, there is no doctrinal quiz where, as human beings, we can go through the some finite number of key questions with someone, check the boxes and determine their ultimate destiny. Does that seem problematic? If so, why does that seem problematic? If anyone wants to read a defense of the legitimacy of Rob's ideas and how they come out of a strain within orthodoxy, check it out here: http://g0spel0fj0hn.com/2011/03/19/love-wins-by-rob-bell-initial-thoughts-2/
I blogged about this. http://jaredfarnum.com/blog/rob-bell-no-hell/
Really? I had jello for lunch.
The day I see a Christian get eaten by a whale, and survive after three days in its stomach, and when one of you stops healing out-of-work actors on CBN and actually raise a dead person from the grave, then and only then will I take seriously the notion that a 32 year old carpenter who has been dead for 2,000 years is our savior and somehow lives inside of you, even though you can not measure or exhbit it without trying to tell us it's the mystery of your deluded faith. I have more respect for a 4 year old who believes in Santa Claus, since they're 4, want presents, and have a valid excuse for their ignorance.
Well said. However, you left out the tooth fairy. Speculation is a nice word to cover their ignorance. The preachers tell them, they believe but nobody questions the preachers source of knowledge and it sure ain't that work of fiction called the bible.
I think you make a good point. I am a Christian but can't stand CBN and wonder about Jonah and the whale, etc. However, the logical, common sense question that always brings me back to Jesus is this, If Jesus died, which is historically accepted, but did NOT raise himself from the dead and appear to his disciples, why would 10 of his 12 immediate followers all STILL go and allow themselves to be kiiled, after Jesus was crucified? When we see cults today, the cult usally disbands right after the leader is exposed as a fraud. But 2,000 years later, people still choose to believe. You may want to check out Ravi Zacharias at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs
So everybody who doesn't agree with you about God is an idiot? And that makes you....?
Atheists go around saying all those who do believe in God are idiots. Meanwhile religious Pharisees go around saying all those who don't believe in their Republicanized version of "God" are idiots. Meanwhile, heretics also go around promoting false doctrine and telling everyone they're not idiots. That's good stuff. Funny! No wonder we're all confused.
I'm all for the orthodox center – where Jesus is and where He and culture intersect. I'll keep my orthodox Jesus in spite of all the confusion and controversy swirling around.
"Atheists go around saying all those who do believe in God are idiots" No, we don't. Are you an idiot or something?
OK
EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW THIS!!!!!! THERE IS NO HEAVEN AND/OR HELL!!! MAGICAL JESUS DID NOT COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN BY HIS DAD SO WE LOWLY HUMANS COULD KILL HIM.
We are still a primitive society if there is no way to prove a divine intervention or a loving "god" that allows children to die but murderers to live. for people who do not care for their fellow man just to make a few more dollars and allow a good man to be impoverished. ALL THIS YOU SEE IS DESIGNED BY HUMANS TO COUNTERACT THE FEAR OF DYING.
LIVE YOUR LIFE!!! LOVE WHAT YOU WANT!!! DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY!! DO NOT CONTINUOUSLY GIVE TO A PRETEND CHURCH TO A PRETEND MAN OF GOD SO HE CAN GET RICH OFF YOU. ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!
You lost the argument at 32 years old.
Another one that babbles nonsense (well without water) because he has no eyes to see, nor ears to hear as he walks around spiritually dead in this world, dry bones.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1. John 1:14, Hebrews 4:12-13, Galatians 3:8.
Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! Deuteronomy 6:4 (Zechariah 14:9)
Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord: and besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:10-11 (Isaiah 44: 6-8, 24; 45:5-10, 18, 21-22)
He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, but he who refuses correction goes astray. (Proverbs 10:17)
Those who go astray from the word of God, are not in the truth, and are not saved; and their words are words of deceit, as Psalm 119:118 declares,
You reject all those who stray from Your statutes, for their deceit is falsehood.
God rejects all those who stray from His word. It does not matter what the subject matter is. There is no salvation for any who heed not holy writ, as Psalm 119:21 proclaims,
You rebuke the proud, the cursed, who stray from Your commandments.
How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge. (Proverbs 1:22)
Their complacency will destroy them (Proverbs 1:32).
Christ said,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
Life is had "by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (i.e. Genesis to Revelation). It is trust in the word of God that saves, as James exhorts,
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)
It is the word of God that saves (e.g. Luke 8:11-12). It is the word of God that must be believed (e.g. Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:3). If you are directed away from faith in the word of God, whatever the issue, this can lead to the destruction of your soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:5 Also [when] they shall be afraid of [that which is] high, and fears [shall be] in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36, 1 John 2:3-5).
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
"For the wrath of God IS revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. . ." Romans 1:18-32
They will find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth (Matthew 8:12; 22:1-14; 25;14-30; Luke 13:28).
Jesus warned,
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13)
Amen.
Why don't you just give the websites http://www.atruechurch.info/ for people to read on their own instead of copying and pasting.
Heretics typically brand the plainest, emphasized teachings of the Bible as unknowable, and they cannot deal with the Bible verses they don't like personally( therefore practically refuse to give the Bible the final authority). They repeat or concentrate on the themes that only interest their feelings. Their personal preference or wishful thinking is their supreme importance, not what the living Word of God is teaching clearly. Heretics are not too different from worshippers of self. Just being trendy... again.
Nonsense. Various "heresies" become orthodoxies elsewhere. The word 'hell' comes from Nordic mythology and almost all the garish visions of it that are part of the hateful, spiteful orthodoxy of many Christians comes from the Greek notion of Hades. Greek culture was enormously influential in the ancient Middle East from Egypt to Persia. These Greek incursions would quite reasonably themselves be considered heresies vis-a-vis early Jewish belief and almost surely what Jesus himself thought about the matter, though Jesus himself was more than a bit of a heretic.
So there is no difference between what you call heretics and the so called Christians? They both choose parts of the bible that will only serve their purpose. The bible was written by man hence, the different versions. For me, faith that relies solely on the bible is not true faith because that means you have more faith in a book written by a man. What if the bible was never written? Are you a worshiper, a fideist, or a believer? Just think...
You have made the perfect circular argument. You can't prove something with it self.
Which Bible? Which version containing which interpretations and translations from other languages of which books, passed down not in writing but by oral traditions, and seemingly arbitrarily selected and then finally after hundreds of years, codified...until other versions came along?
Observer, men scribed the words written in the Bible, divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. God is the author.
Amen.
I think It's funny how people are angered that this guy says there is no hell. The concept of hell came from Greek mythology anyways, not Judaism (or Hebrew god). Religions are just myths usually with elements borrowed from older myths to answer the unknown and the hope that there is something more then life. It only takes unbelievers to realize that the god in the old testament has a totally different personality then the god Jesus preached about, blah blah blah Jesus Christ changed all that. If god is perfect and all knowing then he wouldn't have to had to send Jesus here in the first place. Just like if your life is really predestined fate created by god, then what's the point of praying other then worshipping?
Actually, Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else in the Bible.
That's not true. Maybe it's the other way around, because God IS all knowing and 'perfect' is the reason he sent Jesus. Your parents created you, knowing there is a good chance you would make mistakes, does this make them bad parents?
There is no point in praying. The first person I talk to that has been to either place, heaven or hell, might convince me that these idiots are right.
I am all for restoring the Infancy Gospels to the Bible (removed by Emperor Constantine in 320 something AD). Let's expose the true and young Jesus.In those Gospels Jesus would kill on a whim and was disgusted by women. He preached that a woman would have to turn into a man before she'd ever get to Heaven. Sounds more like an ancient Roy Cohn.
That is a good point, if God is perfect, why send Jesus to seemingly make up for his "mistake" ? But isn't it about love? Love is a choice. God seeks a relationship with us, his love for us and our love for him. But he gives you and me the ability to question, think, hate, curse, help, give, kill, steal, create, invent, build, mock, etc. We have the choice to believe in him. The story of the Bible is that in the beginning of creation, man/woman, chose to disobey God. Man/woman are imperfect, THEY made the choice to turn from God. We today, you and I, choose to disobey him every day. Thus, you and I are guilty as well and require a savior in order to be reconciled with God.
Sorry to preach, just wanted to make a quick point!
We are all the same in the spiritual dimension in heaven. Woman was created in this 2nd earth age to be fruitful and multiply. Woman is the most important of God's creation.
Amen.
We are all of the same spiritual dimension, which is why God loves his gay children!
Dave, the spiritual dimension is when we get to Heaven. We aren't there yet and you won't be on the right side of the divide if you don't read His truth (the Bible) to learn what He wants for you and what He wants for you. The sin of Pride is the first sin that befell satan. The sin of Pride and the sin of Lust are two sins that g-ay people need to have fall to the wayside. The only way they can do that is read, comprehend and apply Jesus' spiritual truth to their lives while down here on earth and in Heaven. Then will anyone get to reside through eternity with Jesus. If not, you'll be on the wrong side of the divide, still don't listen to His truth after the Day of our Lord, you fry in the eternal flames to then be blotted out.
Listen to man/woman and abide in what they say ... do not save souls.
Listen and abide in Jesus truth save souls.
Amen.
God loves all his children including me. God is love, he loves me, he created me to show people like you that you don't know understand his love.
"we are speculating about after you die" OOOOHH No! The Scripture is clear! (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
I Vote that that is enough to charge him with Heresy!!
PRAY For this dude!!
I wish the guy would use "orthodox" instead of "traditional".
dude is leading people astray, poor church 🙁
"Charge him" with heresy? What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?
Spencer, you will notice that all the non-believers love to listen to lies so they don't have to give up their sinful natures. It's easy to follow the lie of liars, it takes courage to follow Jesus' truth.
Amen.
First?
All this nonsensical discussion over nothing but nonsense. Who cares what this guy believes or doesn't believe? Organized religion is a pox on mankind and, in some instances has almost destroyed mankind.All this junk about the bible and what people thought Jesus said 300 years after He died only demonstrates how far people will go to avoid thinking for themselves.
Wow Chef, that was deep, would have been interesting had we cared for your predictable tirade.
Its so boring, please, move on.
Chef, don't worry about it; I for one found your comments among the most enlightened on this thread.
Two statements:
CNN may or may not be "hyping" this guy. Either way, it is bringing a lot of discussion, and as a result "eyes" (read consumers) to their site.
I like the comment about Stephen Hawking, a person who I have done three college papers on. However, as great as he is, (and Einstein, and, and, and...) no one has been able to explain HOW all of this started. No empirical evidence of the "big bang", "evolution", etc...all of which are denoted as THEORIES by the same people who espouse them.
Makes one wonder if these scientists aren't trying to shill their way in to multiple ways of salvation/end.
David Donohue-you really don't want to play "empirical evidence" with matters of your faith. There is no empirical evidence of God either. And please look up the actual definition of "theory". It doesn't mean what you think it means, which is, apparently, wild-ass guess.
Interesting that God sent His only begotten Son into a world that had developed writing and yet the Son or even those closest to Him did not see fit to clarify the great mysteries in writing! All the "quotes" of Jesus came long after the fact and suffer the same fate as any 3rd hand story. Dismiss this argument as the usual "test of faith" reason that has been Jehova's modus operandi and the source of religious debate forever and believe whatever your preachers tell you. Humans are historically lousy at thinking for themselves and prefer to believe what they were taught as children. Its obvious heaven and hell are here and now not somewhere else later. Just read today's news.
chef dugan, What is so obviously wrong about your post is your post. Have you noticed that since they have taken away prayer and the 10 Commandments and banned things like Menorahs and Nativity scenes from public buildings/schools how much more depraved our society has become. That is because the country as a whole has turned it's back on God. I can promise you and anyone who denies truth as you do that if we as a country would turn back to God the USA might become a civilized country again.