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 Joseph Moore is a co-pastor at Austin's Central Presbyterian Church, which hosts SXSW concerts.
March 20th, 2011
11:18 AM ET
Where would Jesus jam? 1800s church hosts SXSW concertsCentral Presbyterian Church only has two rules for rockers who play its sanctuary as part of South by Southwest: Don’t drink; and don’t shatter the stained glass. Other than that, pretty much anything goes. “No one’s bitten the head off a bat so far,” said co-pastor Joseph Moore – testament to the fact that the minimal rules have worked out fine so far. This is the sixth year the Central Presbyterian Church has been an official concert venue for this wild music festival in Austin, Texas, and it’s become one of the hippest places to watch a live music here. The reasons are kind of obvious when you think about it: After a week of wandering streets awash with trash water and wobble-walking drunks, the church lets concert goes sit down and actually listen to music for music’s sake. Few talk through performances in the sanctuary, and the vaulted ceilings and limestone walls create an amazingly clear, full sound. It’s “one of the most pleasant places you'll ever see a show,” wrote Paste Magazine. Read the full story here about SXSW's hottest venue, an old church.
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Everyone has his/her own opinion....But where do God's thoughts and His ways fit in all this? This generat'ion of self willed re'bels have created a golden ca'lf they call God! Yet they don't know the One whose Name they're using ! If they knew the nature of God and His ho'liness they world not bo'ast themselves, taking liberties in which is vil'e and le'wd! There is a big surprise comming to this ge'ner'ation! And it won't be what they think!
Nobody knows if Jesus even existed. So feel free to make up whatever you want. That's how you express "personal faith".
Maxx,
From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.
"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.
“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.
I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .
Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.
Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.
There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus
See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.
From ask.com,
"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.
Then there are these scriptural references:
Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )
Added suggested readings:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html
14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/
19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/
22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus
Somebody loves you more than you can imagine. Would you like to live for him. Be a part of the most awaited blog and get all your qts answered.
http://www.christseason.blogspot.com/
Nobody showing up at your blog? Gee, that's terrible. Thanks for the Spam, it's delicious.
From the article, it says: “Music at its best … points us to something beyond ourselves."
I believe that music, in fact, 'does' move us in ways that do point us to 'states of mind' and 'emotion'.... seemingly beyond ourselves.
In a way, some view their favorite music akin to poetry, which often does for some people, to put them in touch with themselves, at times, on a much deeper path to these quite ineffable experiences.
So, if in fact, Jesus actually existed, I think he would be more than happy to go 'anywhere' .... where the music moved him in states of the sublime, and... where the 'love' and 'compassion' was. Whether it was in a Church, Temple, street corner etc... I think it probably wouldn't have mattered to him.
Of course, I am well aware that this is 'all' speculation on my part, given the context of the hypothetical nature of the article.
So, with that said, in my humble opinion, I believe he would find the best the brightest, the most harmonious and the beauty in everything he did.
Peace...
Speculation indeed. Is there someone nearby who could splash cold water on you? You seem to be running a fever.
That'd definitely a cool venue to play at. Acoustic design and stained glass? Yes, please!
This church needs to read Revelation chapter 2 and 3, if they still have a Bible at all.
"Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]
Martin Luther "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]
Reality, people don't like stuff they don't understand, just like you.
Frederica.. I suspect your church, like all of them, are offshoots of the pagan rituals you all stole from the ancients. You cannot say that others are are worse than yours as you are the same as them. God, if he existed at all, would not allow such egotistical people such as you to spread his "word" it would be bad for business.
EvolvedDNA, do you do anything else other than commenting on CNN religion section??? Christianity is unique. You American atheists are the pathetic regressing pagans. Truth and facts are distinctive, contrary to your wishful thinking. You don't call physics egoistical; neither biblical theology should be called so.
Saving 1.5 billion lost Muslim souls:
There never was and never will be any angels i.e. no Gabriel, no Islam
Saving 2 billion lost Christian souls:
There was and never will be any bodily resurrections i.e. No Easter, no Christianity
Saving 15.5 million Orthodox followers of Judaism:
Abraham and Moses never existed.
Added details upon request.
Frederica.. yes..of course, my job allows me to travel a lot and get to see a lot of the world. You still are unable to give any actual proof of your assertions of god. Not sure what you are talking about regarding truth and facts..
@Frederica
To quote my favourite musician and scientist, Greg Graffin:
"Facts are sterile, not vulgar nor sublime. And they're not religion – they're for everyone and signify the times".
The Book of Revelations beats out even Leviticus for pure, unadulterated baloney. Locusts adorned with tiny crowns, the face of a man, the hair of a woman, the mouth of a lion and the stinger of a scorpion will come to wreak vengeance? A 7 headed dragon that spews torrents of water will follow a pregnant woman around to eat her baby?
A dead church. Bugs feed on a corpse.
Talking about your church again? And what you had for dinner? That is because your country is stupid like that.
All fundies need to go see the movie "Paul"
Hey, that's interesting! I could go to a hospital claiming that I was the Second Son of God, lay hands on people, and then claim that the ones who got better were miracles that prove that I am indeed Harry Christ, the Second Son of God ! The ones who don't recover, well, they are not God's chosen ones and are doomed for their evil ways.
I'd have my own religion, and the faithful would all be called Harrians. They would ti-the me 15% of what they make, just like the Mormons and Southern Baptists, and all would be well . . . for me. As Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard said, "If you want to make a lot of money , create a religion."
I wonder if someone has created christian death metal since they are so obsessed with death instead of the real world we live in. We only have one life and when it's over, nothing more. No reincarnation, no invisible giant living on clouds, no liberal hippie son of the invisible giant whose going to be either a defense attorney or prosecution attorney, no 72 virgins and no living forever in lava being tortured forever.
You are living in the "real" world as a zombie. You are dead. Untill your spirit has been cleansed, thru Jesus Christ.
Only then does your spirit live.
You have it backwards.
Yeah, that's it. Everyone else is a zombie and only you are the divinely chosen special one. We're all crazy because we're zombies, and you are the sane one. Righteo, my good man! That doesn't fit the psychological definition of delusional or anything.
Non-believers are zombies?
But I thought that Jesus was the Easter Zombie...
Ever since the call for prophethood first came to Muhammad, the son of “Abdallah”
approaching the age of fortieth on the month of Ramadan, it is related the Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad and he slept in solitude on Mount Hira and said, “Recite” what Muslims known as the first four verses of the ninety-sixth chapters of the Muslim scripture, known as the Qur'an. This is the Arabic world which combines the meaning of “Reading” and “Recitation” which flourished in the empty desert, broken by a few scattered oases crossed by a few caravans routes, mostly nomads who supported their livelihood by raising sheep, goats, and camels. Under Islam, Moses was not permitted to enter the promise land, and died while people went forward. Jesus was crucified, and Christianity remained a persecuted minority religion for centuries, until a Roman Emperor. Constantine, embraced the faith and empowered those who upheld it. Two religions, very different genocides.
Today the Islam religion is questionable, due in part the acts of terrorism against humanity carried on by its members supported by their leaders, the moral question is larger then religion and life and its asinine leaders .
Tonino
Why is a virgin birth considered a miracle? Sperm can travel past a hymen you idiots! Wake up!!!
The virgin birth and the magi were added to the Jesus tale much later.
If you consider Mark 6:4-6, "But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief."
And also Mark 3:21, "And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind."
You are faced with the really strange fact (attested in the Bible) that a woman who supposedly had a virgin birth of the Son of God and was visited by the three wise men did not believe that Jesus was divine. She and her family in fact thought he was crazy.
Al, I rather suspect that the sick folk that Jesus laid hands on had colds, and miracle of miracle, they got better.
Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.
Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic/music-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-music man conclusion with J's gospels being mostly fiction.
Obviously, today's followers/singers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about virgin births and bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices.
Jesus would not have helped non-Jews. His "ministry" was to the Jews only. Everyone else is relying on the Pauline falsehoods that declared, without any supporting words by Jesus, that non-Jews were able to be saved.
Jesus never said anything like that.
So he wouldn't be "jammin" in a non-Jew church. He would jam in the Temple or the nearest synagogue, or maybe at any Jewish wedding or celebration while turning water into wine.
Go ahead and nail him to the cross again. He was a heretic if he existed. Scourging and crucifixion were common, everyday punishments for a large number of "crimes".
And he couldn't have "given his life" when he had no control over being arrested and executed in the first place. What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense!
We're talking "suicide by cop" if that's what he had in mind. Yet he was avoiding the cops, otherwise all the Judas drama would not have happened like it says in the bible.
I have always been mystified at how much Christians ignore Jesus' teachings and instead follow Paul's, which are very different. Jesus never said his death was important, nor that we all had this terrible guilt-debt we owed him, or that certain parts of the Old Testament could be disregarded. That is all Paul, who does not show in his writings that he was particularly aware of Jesus' teachings.
All that guilt and burn-in-hell stuff that "Christians" just love is not Jesus at all. They should be called Paulians. I have only met one person who followed only what Jesus said and ignored the rest, and he was a very decent person.
"Jesus would not have helped non-Jews. His "ministry" was to the Jews only. Everyone else is relying on the Pauline falsehoods that declared, without any supporting words by Jesus, that non-Jews were able to be saved.
Jesus never said anything like that."
Jesus ministry was to die for the whole world. Yes he ministered to the Jews but also to the gentiles, by healing a Roman centurion's son, by saving a village of Samaritans. In fact Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to his followers, and the disciples believed as you did, that they were only for the Jews, but Peter was surprised to discover the meaning behind God's direct message to him, that God opened it up to the gentiles, fulfilling the prophecy God made long ago that through the descendants of Abraham all nations would be blessed.
"Go ahead and nail him to the cross again. He was a heretic if he existed. Scourging and crucifixion were common, everyday punishments for a large number of "crimes"."
It is sad that so many people do not actually know Jesus, or how Jewish Jesus was. Jesus was definitely Jewish, so much so that anti-missionary Rabbi Shmuley Boteach stated that "Jesus was a good Jew... I think it's time that us Jews re-take Jesus..."
"And he couldn't have "given his life" when he had no control over being arrested and executed in the first place. What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense!"
He didn't have control because he had given it up to God.
So yeah, before you go talking about what Jesus would and wouldn't do, you might actually want to study who he is. If I can recommend Phillip Yancey's "The Jesus I never Knew". It is an AMAZING book. He starts off with revealing the different ways people portray him and searches through to find the real, historical Jesus. Seriously, amazing book.
At least he is smart enough to let normal bands play there, because Christian rock is just just too bad for words.
Rather odd how, after decadess of calling rock "devil music", Christians now have their own type of devil music? And the devil must be behind it, because the devil is all about bad and so is Christian rock.
Fisting for Victory!