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March 23rd, 2011
10:56 AM ET
Organized religion 'will be driven toward extinction' in 9 countries, experts predictBy Richard Allen Greene, CNN Organized religion will all but vanish eventually from nine Western-style democracies, a team of mathematicians predict in a new paper based on census data stretching back 100 years. It won't die out completely, but "religion will be driven toward extinction" in countries including Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, they say. It will also wither away in Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland and Switzerland, they anticipate. They can't make a prediction about the United States because the U.S. census doesn't ask about religion, lead author Daniel Abrams told CNN. But nine other countries provide enough data for detailed mathematical modeling, he said. "If you look at the data, 'unaffiliated' is the fastest-growing group" in those countries, he said. "We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained. The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said - what Abrams calls the majority effect. "People are more likely to switch to groups with more members," he said. Social networks can have a powerful influence, he said. "Just a few connections to people who are (religiously) unaffiliated is enough to drive the effect," he said. The other assumption underlying the prediction is that there are social, economic and political advantages to being unaffiliated with a religion in the countries where it's in decline - what Abrams calls the utility effect. "The utility of being unaffiliated seems to be higher than affiliated in Western democracies," he said. Abrams and his co-authors are not passing any judgment on religion, he's quick to say - they're just modeling a prediction based on trends. "We're not trying to make any commentary about religion or whether people should be religious or not," he said. "I became interested in this because I saw survey data results for the U.S. and was surprised by how large the unaffiliated group was," he said, referring to a number of studies done by universities and think tanks on trends in religion. Studies suggest that "unaffiliated" is the fastest-growing religious group in the United States, with about 15% of the population falling into a category experts call the "nones." They're not necessarily atheists or non-believers, experts say, just people who do not associate themselves with a particular religion or house of worship at the time of the survey. Abrams had done an earlier study looking into the extinction of languages spoken by small numbers of people. When he saw the religion data, his co-author "Richard Wiener suggested we try to apply a similar technique to religious affiliation," Abrams said. The paper, by Abrams, Wiener and Haley A. Yaple, is called "A mathematical model of social group competition with application to the growth of religious non-affiliation." They presented it this week at the Dallas meeting of the American Physical Society. Only the Czech Republic already has a majority of people who are unaffiliated with religion, but the Netherlands, for example, will go from about 40% unaffiliated today to more than 70% by 2050, they expect. Even deeply Catholic Ireland will see religion die out, the model predicts. "They've gone from 0.04% unaffiliated in 1961 to 4.2% in 2006, our most recent data point," Abrams says. He admits that the increase in Muslim immigration to Europe may throw off the model, but he thinks the trend is robust enough to withstand some challenges. "Netherlands data goes back to 1860," he pointed out. "Every single data that we were able to find shows that people are moving from the affiliated to unaffiliated. I can't imagine that will change, but that's personal opinion, not what the data shows." But Barry Kosmin, a demographer of religion at Trinity College in Connecticut, is doubtful. "Religion relies on human beings. They aren't rational or predictable according to the laws of physics. Religious fervor waxes and wanes in unpredictable ways," he said. "The Jewish tradition that says prophecy is for fools and children is probably wise," he added. And Abrams, Wiener and Yaple are not the first to predict the end of religion. Peter Berger, a former president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion, once said that, "People will become so bored with what religious groups have to offer that they will look elsewhere." He said Protestantism "has reached the strange state of self-liquidation," that Catholicism was in severe crisis, and anticipated that "religions are likely to survive in small enclaves and pockets" in the United States. He made those predictions in February 1968. soundoff (3,551 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Cleary, one of the major premises on which the study's conclusions are based seems to be fundamentally flawed.
"We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained. The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said – what Abrams calls the majority effect."
That's like saying, "the population is in decline, therefore it will likely continue since people are currently not reproducing at the same rate they did years ago." Instead of saying, "likely" it would be much better to qualify with an ALL CAPS "it is possible."
Seems like a slightly illogical conclusion given that religions grew from non-existence to regional/global dominance. I.E. – there was a time when there were 120 followers of Jesus but in time it became the dominant religion in the West with 100's of millions of followers globally.
So the "majority effect" seems to be historically proven as false and not just in religion. It's possible that people will identify with the majority but certainly not necessary or even likely.
Drivel . . .
1 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2:6-10
Amen.
This is just a sidebar: why are the only comments on this subject that are compassionate, understanding and empathatic written by women aka not hateful, sarcastic and meanspirited. Regardless of religious or non-religious affiliation men could stand to learn alot from the maternal side of our species.
Do define "religion" before writing such a story. The whole article is so ambiguous, not scientific at all.
I think quote sums it up best.
"there's all the difference in the world between a belief that one is prepared to defend by quoting evidence and logic, and a belief that is supported by nothing more than tradition, authority or revelation."
-Dawkins
I guess you haven't done your homework... Haven't you heard, Dawkins background isn't Philosophy..
Oh, hum, just another truth to read.
1 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2:6-10
LOL.
HeavenSent: are you the Truth Fairy?
SO TERRIBLY SAD to see how many people turn their backs on their CREATOR. Believing in God/Jesus for me has kept me from doing things like stealing and so on....things that are sinful. Anyone can be saved if he wants to be, by calling on JESUS. In the bible it says that most people will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We are not here by chance, so dont be fooled, God exists. Many Scientist want US to be programmed to believe other wise....just as it says in the bible they will do.
IN THE END MY FRIENDS, Jesus will conquer all, and you WILL bow down and worship him!! The one true, eternal God!! Remember in the flood with Noah's ark, all those unbelievers were begging to be SAVED....JESUS WILL SAY ON THAT DAY, i DONT KNOW.
GOD SAID, I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
Amen! well said 🙂
This post made my day.....but yet the future of this country and world were already known, just a bummer it has to happen that way. Faith is all we got, and its enough for me.
Hmmmmm, so this is where the 10% of unemployed people hang out. Glade I found you all! Go America! We are doing it right thats for sure! A country that spends more time caring about what lindsay Lohan is doing and what Apple deleted from the Itunes store then caring about the other things in the world is a place I want to be and for sure have my kids grown up in. As far as religion goes....well Ive always had faith in the human race....being so smart and right all the time, always making choices for the better, so religion going away isnt really a suprise.......since the bible already predicted it. Scientists are only.....couple years behind no big deal. O and that was sarcasm BTW for you people that didn't pick it up.
jrkue630, I can see how this scripture fits you. I don't you are out of HS, never mind raise children with a mindset like yours (LOL). You kids write anything on these sites.
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away.
2 Timothy 3:1-5
Amen.
the death of religion cannot come soon enough. After that, kill agnosticism. Only, and ONLY after we do away with all concept of a magical sky being will the human species be Adult.
john, we know you probably can't wait for what's in store for you ...
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48
Amen.
This is great news. This indicates a move away from myths and fairytales and a move towards rationality and sensibility.
This is moral progress par excellence.
I am an internet forum evangelist for the unaffiliated.
fundies, you quality for this scriptures and all those that follow your phony ways ...
Jesus warned on the day of judgment that He will say to many, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.
Matthew 7:23
Amen.
Good Riddance, since More Wars, More Murders, and More Social upheaval has been attributed to Religion than any other cause!
Bob, it had nothing to do with religion but everything to do with the love for power and money. It's always about politics and $...
Lol... Your post shows how ill-informed you really are Bob, it's not religion that causes wars, it's greed, pride and power hungry individuals who more often then not, use religion as disguise to mask there true motives. I chuckle at people like you who think when religion is finally thrown to the curb; humanity will reach some "ultimate utopia" at the end of the rainbow. Have you not heard of the atrocities’ committed at the hands of the irreligious? Or do you continue to wear your earmuffs, when that part of secular humanism history cries out, "we're no better then the rest"?
Bob. If you want your head cut off by some lunatics that want to conquer our country. Go for it. Keep spouting off about something you and your other non-believers haven't a clue about. Our soldiers fight for our freedom. That's why you can still live home with mommy and daddy and not get a job. Time to start looking for one.
Amen.
so SAD t o see how many people turn their backs on their CREATOR. Believing in God/Jesus for me has kept me from doing things like stealing and so on....things that are sinful. Anyone can be saved if he wants to be, by calling on JESUS. In the bible it says that most people will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We are not here by chance, so dont be fooled, God exists. Many Scientist want US to be programmed to believe other wise....just as it says in the bible they will do.
IN THE END MY FRIENDS, Jesus will conquer all, and you WILL bow down and worship him!! The one true, eternal God!! Remember in the flood with Noah's ark, all those unbelievers were begging to be SAVED....JESUS WILL SAY ON THAT DAY, i DONT KNOW.
GOD SAID, I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
You don't need god or jesus to tell you not to steal... fool.
No... god did not say that. Some man made it up.
UNFORTUNATELY you are uninformed...WE do need to know right from wrong and Christianity teaches how to love , give and serve others. Obey God and love your brother..including how i love you even though i dont know you. Instead you mock me and call me a fool. What you dont realize is that because i have god in my life, i am a better person and the fear of god's punishment alone keeps me from doing worse things in life. The fact that you're calling me a FOOL – proves what im saying.
I wouldnt call you a fool, because God/Jesus teaches us to love one another.
HAPPY, God made you and you are denying him.... we did not come from dirt. Jesus and god teaches Love and you want to get rid of it...do you prefer CHAOS and murder ? Sounds like you prefer a HITLER SOCIETY instead?
@j If the only reason you don't do worse is out of fear of punishment, then you're not a very good person at all. Please stay away from me and my family.
j, I am well capable of existing in a society without committing murder without belief in a god.
In fact, given that atheists have an absurdly low disproportionate amount of the prison population compared to their per capata population, we seem to be pretty good about avoiding the chaos and murder you speak of. Why? Because we're social creatures, social creatures are inherently programed not to go on mass killing sprees in a society, you don't need a god for that.
You seem to just be appealing to god to try to make yourself feel special. "Life's meaningless without god, so we just should kill everyone if god doesn't exist", seems to be your mindset. Let me speak as an atheist and say make your own damn purpose, if god doesn't exist this universe is just the same as if god does, so if the only thing keeping you from killing is faith in an invisible guy in the sky... SEEK PSYCHIATRIC TREATMENT!
ANDREW: God help you. Can you prove god doesnt exist? Can you prove when you came from? In the bible God it is spoken of people like you who deny God. Children fear their parents and so we shall fear God and his punishment if we do bad. So, its ok to do wrong because you dont fear and no one is watching? Atheist – Jesus said at the cross, "Forgive them God, for they know not what they do" – that is going through my mind right now when i read your comment....take care my brother.
I can't prove god doesn't exist any more than I can prove unicorns, the loch ness monster, and leprachauns don't exist. But that doesn't mean I believe in any of them.
Yes, I can prove where I come from, I've got a decent quality video of my birth. I also could, if I so wished, take blood samples and compare my DNA to that of my parents. I could also observe instances of births of other humans to conclude I arrived via a similar process. That's the principle of providing evidence, something I can do with my birth, but not for god or the loch ness monster.
I don't think it's ok to do wrong REGARDLESS of if anyone is watching. I don't believe in a god, but that doesn't mean I think it's ok to do wrong. The only one saying "it's ok to do wrong without god" is you, which makes me think you are in truth a rather horrible human being. You avoid wrong because you're scared of god, I avoid wrong because I'm a genuinely decent human being.
Contrary to what you may believe, many non-believers do not steal or murder. At least, they don't burn heretics alive.
Andrew, try this truth on for size. Non-believers are the minority, not the majority in the world. Good try, but there are more fools in prison than wise folks. Fools equals non-believers that refuse to learn Jesus' wisdom. There are a few wise folks incarcerated, most likely they were set up and are the innocent folks in prison.
Amen.
The reason HITLER killed so many- is because he didnt believe in GOD. Do you realize that HITLER thought by killing jews he was doing right?? Well, my friend in the Holy Bible- God's law is Thous shalt not KILL, that means no ONE person IS TO KILL.
@j Unless that someone is god...then she can kill as many people as she wants without reason or remorse.
To quote from Mein Kampf, perhaps the most candid look at Hitler's psychology and beliefs...
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Yeah, such a non-believer.
@HeavenSent
Do you understand what "per capata" is? If there are 20% atheists making up the population, but they have a wildly disproportionate amount of the population in prison, that means they could make up roughly 1% of the prison population while making 20% up of the general populace. That's what I meant by atheists have a disproportionately low representation in the prison population.
Which indicates that atheists aren't as evil as christians like j are trying to portray. None of this changes the fact that you guys really just have no evidence, so aside from believing some truly vile things, you also believe them with no robust support.
It is really unfortunate to read so many posts from unbelievers. The real travesty, to me, is that someone, or some people, that proclaim to be Christians have forgotten the Biblical directive of Christ to be a light in this dark and tired land. We should be a refuge of peace to the wary with a comforting word and a willing hand to help. He has commanded us to show the love of God in Christ Jesus and as bought and purchased slaves of Christ we have been sent as ambassadors into our communities. We should be willing to show the agape love of God to the unbeliever as well as the believer and look to God only for our strength and reward. This, that ALL might be saved! We should be ready to answer when asked, what’s our purpose? We should answer with a humble yet sincere I am redeemed by the blood! Even in the face of persecution. His Word says “If my Name be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself”. We should do our work at the harvest and pay no mind to the time of day when night comes we will rest and let God perform His Word!
Religion is okay when used with compassion and love. Such as, the faith based organizations that save hundreds of thousands of people a year in 3rd world countries and even in the U.S. Soup Kitchens, shelters, etc... Not everyone who is a Christian is a zelot or angry. We need love and compassion and to help humanity and really follow what Jesus did. He was a revolutionary and wanted radical change.....Love. God is love and that is what we need.
I hate religion, as a system to reach God.. or to put it another way, a system that takes all the mystery out of God, and reduces Him to a list of do's and don'ts. Islam is the highest form of religion. I have to tell you, that is Not God.
True religion is when a person has a relationship with God.... a true relationship... with all the mysteries and intrigue that it comes with. Ask God: not just any God, the God of the universe... who He is. If you're sincere, He will let you know.
I'm out of here for now.
But the thing is, Islam *does* teach everyone to have a healthy relationship with ALL of humanity and with God.
I don't know what your definition of 'healthy relationship' is, but Islam teaches that unbelievers should be converted or killed, unless they are 'people of the book', in which case they get off with paying higher taxes, not riding horses and being lower quality witnesses (like women).
Oh great another CNN article where 'smart, rational, free-thinking atheists' who don't study Christian theology cherrypick Leviticus verses about stoning.
Do I need to study the moral code of Harry Potter to conclude that it is fantasy?
What good will "studying christian theology" do? Unless you guys can provide actual evidence, I don't really need to believe your book any more than any other book.
It is really unfortunate to read so many posts from unbelievers. The real travesty, to me, is that someone, or some people, that proclaim to be Christians have forgotten the Biblical directive of Christ to be a light in this dark and tired land. We should be a refuge of peace to the wary with a comforting word and a willing hand to help. He has commanded us to show the love of God in Christ Jesus and as bought and purchased slaves of Christ we have been sent as ambassadors into our communities. We should be willing to show the agape love of God to the unbeliever as well as the believer and look to God only for our strength and reward. This, that ALL might be saved! We should be ready to answer when asked, what’s our purpose? We should answer with a humble yet sincere I am redeemed by the blood! Even in the face of persecution. His Word says “If my Name be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself”. We should do our work at the harvest and pay no mind to the time of day when night comes we will rest and let God perform His Word!
The problem in showing the 'love of God' to unbelievers is that it exists only in your heads.
Incidentally, one of the major premises on which the study's conclusions are based seems to be fundamentally flawed.
"We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained. The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said – what Abrams calls the majority effect."
That's like saying, "the population is in decline, therefore it will likely continue since people are currently not reproducing at the same rate they did years ago." Instead of saying, "likely" it would be much better to qualify with an ALL CAPS "it is possible."
Seems like a slightly illogical conclusion given that religions grew from non-existence to regional/global dominance. I.E. – there was a time when there were 120 followers of Jesus but in time it became the dominant religion in the West with 100's of millions of followers globally.
So the "majority effect" seems to be historically proven as false and not just in religion. It's possible that people will identify with the majority but certainly not necessary or even likely.
Drivel . . .
The authors of the study only claim that the 'majority effect' is one of obviously many forces that influence religious affiliation. To claim that the fact that a minority once became a majority disproves the effect is like saying that the theory of gravity is false because not all things (eg clouds and gas balloons) fall. In fact the authors claim that a group that is currently a minority (the unaffiliated) may eventually become a majority.
Carlos Marin –
Actually they claim that they start with two big assumptions based on sociology . . . the majority effect being one.
Good catch – saying "proven false" was going a bit too far. I should have at least said, "Mitigating the force of the majority effect. . ."
Still – the gravity analogy is a bit skewed since gravity is a known to be a constant in this world and the "majority effect" has been overturned time and time and time again – history is replete with examples of people moving towards a minority position and the minority becoming a majority.
It just depends on what people believe they have to gain or lose – which would bring the "utility effect" into play. But who is to say that the current terms of utility might be suddenly and quickly overturned. Certainly has happened many, many times in the West in the 20th century alone.
NoFluf wrote: "... one of the major premises on which the study's conclusions are based seems to be fundamentally flawed. "
All the major premises on which the so-called "great" religions are based are nothing but fiction.
In DOG we trust.
It is so sad to see so many der'og'atory comments here toward people of faith, especially Christians.... It really shows in what co'ndition theis country,and it's society is....
But for those who are ready to cele'brate, I say, You don't understand some things... and it is that those who know God our Creator will NEVER be gone (not even in a "secret Rap'ture", because it is taught wrong in our churches), not until the Last day, when every eye shall see Him, in the clouds of glory....
The world will make a laughing stock out of organized religion of today, as the time goes by..... But real God's people will be still everywhere, in every nation, not inden'tif'ied by group, or a building, with their faith and co'nvict'ions unmovable.
But...That's not the end of "organized religion", people! There will come one on the scene and will be organized, but it will be the one you will love, enco'mp'assing all of them, but without Christ Jesus of the Bible.! It will have a leader whom you will love, pay allegi'ance too, and h'ail his comming... And you will not know who he REALLY is....Think it won't happen? God gave this generation an example: Adolph H'tl'er. He gave it, so that this generation would see, and be warned what's to come.... And he gave an example to show this generation how masses of people can be swept into following one man, no matter how evil he is...
I don't say these things here to stir up anything, but so that when it happens, some of you will at least remember, and perhaps understand...Although I know, some never will!
Even if the time would go on, and you would have all world to yourself, do your REALLY think you could survive, in the shape you people are?! Do you know that all efforts to save yourself from self dest'ru'ction would fail you, because when man turns away from the princi'ples of God who gave Him life, he will ultimately destroy HIMSELF!
None of us live forever. Our acceptance of that fact (and our lack of fear at facing our demise) is the reason why we've been able to cast off the shackles of your dark ages sorcery and enjoy life for what it is.
i AM ALSO A CHRISTIAN...and everyone here who is speaking of religion doing MOSTLY damage is totally uninformed. My words to them would be as JESUS said" LET HIM WHO IS WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone"
None of you are differentiating between "religion" and "organized religion". They're two different animals. The focus in organized religion is on money, power, and control. That needs to go and the sooner the better.
So, PRISM 1234, your basic premise is that if we can't explain it we should blame it on a god and since there will always be things we can't explain there will always be a god.
Put another way, gods are a manifestation of ignorance. Since the human intellect is limited, there will always be those things we can't explain and therefore humans will always invent gods.
Lets not forget the benefits of gods either. without a god there would be no crusaides no jihads no inquisition no persecution of jews, muslims, christians, hindus, buddists, wiccans, zoroastrians.....
let me get this straight... your god is a god who sends a message by sending to earth a mass murderer who has on his hands the blood of tens of millions of individuals, not including the genocide he committed?
... That's your god sending a message? You worship one hell of an evil sick twisted god.
The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ returns with the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish His thousand year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).
ANDREW, God's plan was NEVER to have any of this happen. MAN (Adam, THE FIRST HUMAN MAN) DISOBEYED God and against God's will. So, when you disobey you are punished. Just like if you were to murder – you will be punished. It's a law here on earth and it is god's law. SO, because of this we are CURSED and are now born sinners. With that said, Man chooses between right and wrong & denying God is choosing wrong, stealing, lying is wrong and so on.
God asks that you ask for forgiveness and that is why he sent jesus to die for us – so that we MAY be saved....
I know this may be confusing, but please look into it before bashing it brother...
Give it a rest Andrew with your lying. You folks are so transparent. You too are killing your soul. So much for the mass murderer and genocide. You are just as guilty.
Amen.
j, I know this is going in one ear and out the other... but I'm going to say it anyway.
Adam and Eve is a STORY. There was no "first human man", that's not how evolution works, just like there's no "first chicken ever". (The reason is a lot like the rational behind a ring species, A can mate with B can mate with C can mate with D but A and D cannot mate. There's no specific "first D", cause C certainly can mate with D, it's just when you look at the bigger picture eventually the two populations cannot mate. In a ring species they're separated geographically, in humans we're separated from our predecessors in time)
And, aside from the fact that Adam and Eve was a story, nothing more, a god who punishes someone for "disobeying" by eating an apple with death, disease, and massive large scale multiple genocides, IS AN EVIL DEITY. You're not helping your case much by saying "they disobeyed god" because that sounds like the most gross over compensation type of punishment possible.
Your god does evil things. You're trying to figure out ways to justify massive killings, when me, an atheist, finds the idea if killing another human repulsive. I seem to be on a way more solid moral level than you, depraved enough to think eating an apple is worthy of an eternity of dismay... BEFORE ADAM AND EVE WOULD HAVE EVEN KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG! Seriously "I told you to not touch the cookies, you did, so now I'm going to make sure you and all of your children will die".
You defend this monster?
HeavenSent
What? How the hell am I committing genocide? Just because I claim a god who wipes out all humanity, imposes incredibly disproportionate punishments, and sends mass murdering tyrants to earth as a "message" is evil?
I'm the bad guy here? "Yeah, sure, I'm saying god sent hitler here to kill off tens of millions of people... but you're saying that's a bad thing for god to do, so you clearly are the liar here!"
W t f?
ANDREW: You sound mean....it's SAD. It's apparent i am speaking another language and that you believe in Darwinism, which by the way many in the Hitler camp, including hitler BELIEVED in.
Perhaps you can try going to a non denominational church and listen to a few sermons...you are closing yourself up big time to the most wonderful creator – YOUR OWN. Have a good day brother.
I'm saying killing other humans is bad under any circ-mstance, how am I the mean one?
You're defending a murdering genocidal deity. I am not. I am saying killing is bad regardless of if there's a god. You're saying murderers are just punishment for humanity. I'm really not the mean one here.
And Hitler banned, yes, BANNED the Origin of Species in Germany. He prohibited people from reading it. Clearly he wasn't doing what he did because of darwinian evolutionary theory. However, if Hitler believed the sky is blue, or that the sun is a sustained thermonuclear reaction, that wouldn't make the theories wrong.
I don't consider a genocidal deity who wipes out people on earth on multiple occasions a wonderful creator. You have a sick and twisted idea of "good". You have exhibited no problem with death or murder or genocide, I have, why do you keep saying I'm the one lacking morality?
Tune in Andrew. Jesus doesn't do anything to you except to oblige you of your wishes. You wish to not read His truth (the Bible). You wish not to be one with society. You wish to stay anti-social. You chose to not give up your sins. You send yourself to the eternal flames, blotted out. No eternity for you. Jesus does what you and any one else wants.
So much for your excuses of God is such a bad guy. Kiss your own butt goodbye. You did it to yourself.
Amen.
TO ALL: God so values freedom that he permits us to choose against him. Choosing one way brings blessing; choosing the other way brings the curse. People think you have to change to come to Christ, but when you give him your life HE does the changing for you. We ususally try to run from GOD when he presses into our hearts and settle with a lukewarm belief, equaling no TRUE joy. He is Greater than I.
ANDREW: Of course I AM not DEFENDING genocide & so on, pls dont think that. God is not a human, you are looking at him from a human earthly view. God makes and creates everything you see around you. God wanted good for all – eternal life for all. When people do wrong they are punished. God gives us free will, and so if people choose to KILL mass people, it will happen...because this earth is not what God made for us. God is all LOVE and those who come to him will know this LOVE. People that KILL are EVIL. And because the evil does exist, we need to trust God and what he has in store for us.
It's a great life to live when you give your life to the LORD....If Hitler believed in God of the holy Bible- he would never have done what he did, that is certain. God DOES NOT like Killing, its one of his commandments – thou shalt not KILL. Knowing this commandment Andrew i think you need to dig deeper as to why – but what i am telling you is that we are now sinners, capable of ALL KINDS OF SIN. God asks us to work for our SALVATION, he will not force us into it....but punishing us is a wake up call in the same way that parents rebuke or do tough love....God loves you Andrew...hope one day you will see it.
HeavenSent I'm making two general claims, it seems you failed to comprehend that.
1) I do not believe in a god because there is insufficient evidence to warrant belief in a god. ANY god. I have not been convinced of the veracity of your claims, thus I hold no positive belief for any of it. You seem to pretend like I consider your threat of hellfire convincing.
2) Given that I don't accept any god, I also don't accept the Christian god due to lack of evidence. However, I am making the further claim that the christian god is an evil dick. The Christian god has committed tons of murder and genocide in his own name, I mean, turning a person into a pillar of salt for looking back? Destroying entire cities including men women and children? I don't believe it because it has no evidence, but I'm also saying that the god of the bible depicts an incredibly odious figure.
Two claims, my belief is related to the first, my opinion is related to the second. Try to understand the difference for my reasons for non-belief, versus my reasons for insulting the Christian god. They are not the same.
@j
That's a cheap cop out. "God isn't human, so I can't judge him by human standards".
Well I happen to be human, and so as a human, any instances of genocide or murder at the hands of god to me counts as evil. When god imposes arbitrarily extreme punishments for "wrong", that to me is considered an evil deity. "He's god, so it doesn't count" is a lame @ss excuse.
FYI, Hitler publicly professed belief in the bible. Now, the question of if he was sincere or not is up for debate, but he was most certainly not a declared atheist. I see no "tough love" with your sick version of the biblical god, I just see an evil vain @ss who requires utter blind devotion or hands out eternal punishment. That is odious. I'm amazed you can't see how.
Education is organized religions worst fear!.....
Because if you are educated enough to think for yourself and learn how to learn and how to count the numbers to judge for yourself and come to your own conclusions, "organized religion" can no longer control how and what you think, and it looses political power. The day god went from a personal "relationship" basis to an organized "governed" basis was the day religion became dangerous " to all humanity" and a unrecognized or hidden sin under its own philosophy.
If only this was happening in the Middle East.
Organized religion is all about money, power, and control.
You ARE aware I am assuming that it was "organized religion" who first brought education to people outside the upper class? And this is coming from someone under the unaffiliated column.
I haven't met Wasabi Peanut, but I love Wasabi Peanuts.
Excuses, excuses for your LAZINESS. Lazy of not wanting to know how to fit in harmony with society. Lazy for not learning Wisdom. Lazy for not getting rid of your sinful ways.
Hey, you all chose down, down, down to the eternal flames to be blotted out. No eternity for you.
Amen.
I am affiliated with the unaffiliated. We welcome others to affiliate with us unaffiliated people who are affiliated with one another through our mutual interest in remaining unaffiliated with those affiliated with formal religions of which we do not want to be affiliated.
Enough with the Affilibuster.
Thanks for the smile 🙂
consider me unaffiliated. 😀
I would consider, but I dont like being affiliated with any affiliated or unaffiliated group
Look what is in store for you for being so lazy not to read His truth in the Bible to be civilized in community. All a bunch of anti-socials.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Amen.
Does this mean you guys would like to get affiliated with the rest of us unaffiliated affiliates who do not want to be affiliated with formal religions and would like to be considered part of the group affiliated with others that are interested in being part of the unaffiliated? if so, I would like to affiliate with you because you have a mutual interest in being unaffiliated with people who are affiliated with formal religions and who do not consider themselves to be unaffiliated. Affilibuster is a nice addition. nice.
Heaven Sent, you missed this one. 1 Fundies 4:13 I am an internet forum evnagelist for the unaffiliated.
I wonder if the apostles were capable of basic math. I like math.
fundies, your just a 2 Peter 2:2.
Amen.