home
RSS
My Take: It doesn't matter who wrote the Bible
April 1st, 2011
01:00 AM ET

My Take: It doesn't matter who wrote the Bible

Editor’s note: David Hazony is the author of "The Ten Commandments: How Our Most Ancient Moral Text Can Renew Modern Life," published recently by Scribner.

By David Hazony, Special to CNN

I am a person of faith. But sometimes I like to step outside of faith and just think about things rationally. Usually this oscillation between faith and skepticism serves me well, with faith giving reason its moral bearings, and reason keeping faith, well, reasonable.

It’s a nice balancing act — except when the question of who wrote the Bible comes up. My Jewish faith tells me that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah or the Pentateuch. Reason tells me to be open to the idea that somebody else had a hand in it.

And there are definitely a few glitches in the text that back up those suspicions - notably the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, which describe Moses’ own death.

But try as I might, I just can’t believe that the Five Books of Moses were written by J, E, P and D – the four main authors whose oral traditions, biblical scholars say, were cobbled together to make the Torah. (The letters stand for the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Priestly source and the Deuteronomist. Those, we may assume, were not their real names.)

Call me an academic infidel.

I know, it’s been generations now that Bible study scholars at universities around the world have accepted as true that:

(a) the Pentateuch was composed over many centuries through these four oral traditions, which were later written down;

(b) these main texts were woven together by an editor or series of editors living around the 6th century B.C.E.; and

(c) these different traditions are detectable by scholars today, to the point where you can justify entire conferences and an arena’s worth of endowed chairs to figure out not only the source document of every scrap of biblical text, but also the gender, political inclinations, subversive intentions, height, weight and personal traumas encumbering every one of its authors.

The first two are plausible, I suppose. But the third has always struck me as pure fantasy, the point where idle speculation gives way to heavily funded hubris. Of course, if I’m right about the third, the first two lose their authority as well.

Why don’t I buy it?

It’s not just because of how stark, uninspiring and vaguely European those four letters look in a byline. Nor is it the fact that in more than a century’s worth of digging up the Middle East by archaeologists, not a single trace of any of these postulated “source texts” has ever turned up. And it’s certainly not because the scholars’ approach contradicts my faith — after all, it was the willful suspension of faith that led me to consider it in the first place.

No, faith and skepticism dwell together in my confused bosom like pudding and pie.

Rather, my rebellion against these scholars comes from experience. Specifically, my experience as an editor.

It all started a few years back when, as the senior editor of a Jerusalem-based journal of public thought, I ran into trouble on a 10,000-word, brilliantly researched essay about Israeli social policy composed by the sweetest man on earth who, unfortunately wasn’t a stellar writer.

I spent a few weeks rewriting, moving things around, adding and cutting and sweating. Finally I passed it up the chain to Dan, my editor-in-chief.

"Hey Dan," I said. "Could you take a look at this? I added a whole paragraph in the conclusion. Tell me what you think."

A few days later I got it back, marked up in red ballpoint. On the last page, in the conclusion, he had written the words “This is the paragraph you added,” and drawn a huge red arrow.

But the arrow, alas, was pointing at the wrong paragraph.

You see, it turns out that it’s not very easy to reverse-engineer an editing job. To take an edited text and figure out, in retrospect, what changes it went through — it’s about a million times harder than those tenured, tortured Bible scholars will tell you.

Language is fluid and flexible, the product of the vagaries of the human soul. When an editor has free rein, he can make anything sound like he’d written it himself, or like the author’s own voice, or something else entirely. It all depends on his aims, his training, his talent and the quality of his coffee that morning. A good editor is a ventriloquist of the written word.

That’s when I started to suspect that what Bible scholars claim they’re doing — telling you what the “original” Bible looked like — might be, in fact, impossible to do.

Think about it. My case was one in which the author, editor and reader are all known entities (in fact, they all know each other personally); the reading takes place in the exact same cultural and social context as the writing and editing; and the reader is himself a really smart guy, Ivy-league Ph.D. and all, who had spent a decade training the editor to be a certain kind of editor, with specific tools unique to the specific publication’s aims.

Not only that, but he was even told what kind of edit to look for, in which section. And still he couldn’t identify the change.

Now compare that with what Bible scholars do when they talk about J, E, P, and D. Not only do the readers not know the writers and editors personally, or even their identities or when or where they lived. The readers live thousands of years later and know nothing about the editors’ goals, whims, tastes, passions or fears — they don’t even know for sure that the whole thing really went through an editorial process at all.

(If anything, the same textual redundancies, narrative glitches, awkward word choices and so forth that the scholars claim are the telltale signs of an editing process are, in my experience, very often the opposite: the surest indicator that an author needs an editor, desperately. If the text was edited, it was done very poorly.)

As with any field of research that tries to reconstruct the distant past, biblical scholars get things wrong on a daily basis.

And that's OK: Getting things wrong is part of the nature of reconstruction. Whether you’re talking about the origins of galaxies, dinosaurs, ancient civilizations, medieval history or World War II, the conclusions of all historical research come with a big disclaimer: This is the best we’ve got so far. Stay tuned; we may revise our beliefs in a couple of years.

With biblical scholars, however, you often feel like they’re flying just a little blinder than everyone else. At what point does a scholar’s “best guess” become so foggy as to be meaningless?

The Five Books of Moses take place somewhere in the second millennium B.C.E., centuries before our earliest archeological corroborations for the biblical tales appearing in the Book of Joshua and onward. We have no other Hebrew writings of the time to compare it with. So all that scholars really have to go on is the text itself — a wild ride on a rickety, ancient, circular-reasoning roller-coaster with little external data to anchor our knowledge of anything.

This would be fine, of course, if there weren’t so much riding on it.

With other fields, we usually don’t have our own dinosaur in the fight. But with the Bible, it’s not just the scholars duking it out with the clergy. There’s all the rest of us trying to figure out what to do with this stupendously important book — either because it anchors our faith, or because it contains enduring wisdom and the foundations of our cultural identity.

Where does that leave us? Some people, sensing their most cherished beliefs are under siege, will retreat to the pillars of faith — whether that faith is religious or academic. Either it was Moses, or it was J, E, P, and D. End of discussion.

As for the rest of us, it may raise questions about whether we really ought to care that much about authorship at all, or instead just go with Mark Twain’s approach. “If the Ten Commandments were not written by Moses,” he once quipped, “then they were written by another fellow of the same name.”

Using our reason means sometimes admitting there are things we just don’t know, and maybe never will.

Maybe that’s all right. After all, isn’t it enough to know that the book is really important, that it has inspired love and hate and introspection and war for thousands of years, that it is full of interesting stories and wisdom, poetry and song, contradiction and fancy and an unparalleled belief in the importance of human endeavor - in the possibility of a better world - despite the enduring and tragic weaknesses that every biblical hero carries on his or her back? That it is an indelible part of who we are?

Isn’t that enough to make you just read the thing and hope for the best, forever grateful to Moses, or that other fellow by the same name?

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Hazony.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Bible • History • Judaism • Torah

soundoff (2,549 Responses)
  1. Muneef

    Sharia is an extensive word that contains so many roles and regulations....it is much better to point out what is not to the liking of the people and moderate it... Many of the roles and regulations adopted by secular systems courts are of sharia but might be in a moderate way....guess to scale weight for Justice share,you have to hold the stick from the middle....and not at both extremes...by the extreme parties...
    It was not conditional from the beginning that who wants to immigrate and live in America and Europe has to give up his origin culture and religion belief for the culture and belief of the country he is immigrating to...!! Therefore since the issues of immigration was not conditional,then that means they can apply what so ever they used to live by at origin back where they immigrated to...but that does not mean it should apply to all of those non muslims living in the west unless they found it suitable for them to adopt as it is or after having it moderated to suit their needs....after all the Sharia Laws were mainly extracted from all the Holy Books (Torah/Gospel/Quran)..these laws were the base of all present legal laws...

    Al-Maeda sura 05:
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. (45) And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah – a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). (46) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (47) And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48) So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49) Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50).
      

    April 7, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

      2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:09 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      If God sends a 'strong delusion' that people will believe isn't he, in fact, lying to people?

      April 7, 2011 at 7:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, No, he's just giving people what they want. If they don't want to believe, he'll give them delusions to believe in. If they want to believe, he allows them to find what they are looking for. This is His same truth I keep telling people that they send themselves to the eternal flames. Jesus just abides in what they want. Same with believers who trust and believe in Jesus, they get eternity because they love and follow Jesus.

      Hence, stay humble and pray to Jesus for forgiveness of your sins and ask Him to guide you in His truth.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:40 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      Then I fail to see how you can call only one a delusion since God is creating realities for both the ones who want to believe, and the ones who don't. Both sets of 'realities' are just as much his creation and therefore just as equally 'real', right? He deludes everyone then.

      April 7, 2011 at 11:42 pm |
    • Muneef

      HeavenSent.
      May I ask which part of my words or the verses I have quoted you find Delusional as was a lie and people believed the lie taking the untruth for their pleasure in unrighteousness ???
      HeavenSent.
      As a Muslim i believe with out doubt of the Quran in God and in Jesus the messiah son of Mary and believe in all the miracles he was supplied with, I believe the Jesus was the spirit and the word of God...and that God had supported him by the Holy Spirit... 
      My question here do you accept to believe in the Quran as a Holy Scripture? Do you accept to believe in Muhammed Bin Abdulla as the last of prophets by God?
      If you do believe in all of that then are there any points disputed that can be worked out to finally be able to live in peace with out separating walls between People of Religions & Beliefs ?
      About the lie that was believed & the delusions of those who believed in the untruth...we as Muslims have our views as to were those who made the lie and believed in it...Look and think deep of your few posted words,only then you may realize who is what....!
      [36:58] Greetings of peace from a Most Merciful Lord.

      April 8, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
  2. Steve (the real one)

    Actually, it does matter who wrote the Bible. God did, through men! If not, everybody, go back home, go back to bed and wait until the end comes because there is no hope!

    April 7, 2011 at 10:55 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Steve, God knew these folks, stay in peace brother. God is in control.

      Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

      Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

      Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

      Romans 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

      Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

      Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

      Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

      Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

      Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

      Romans 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

      Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

      Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

      Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

      Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

      Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

      Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

      Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

      Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

      Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

      Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

      Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

      Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

      Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

      Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

      Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

      Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

      Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

      Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

      Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

      Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

      Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

      Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
  3. Older Sista

    God thinks He's given us enough PROOF to deserve faith in Him. Jesus said '..if you don't believe my words (at face value) at least believe them because of the works I have shown you.' (the miracles) I think God the Father feels the same way....if you don't believe the Bible because it says He's trustworthy, at least look around at His creation and let it convince you. No? Well, He's certainly given you a mind to decide but if you think 'IT'S' all a sham, then I think you haven't any concept or appreciation of the miracle of one cell, one atom, one spark of life that is in you. But please carefully consider, and consider often, what IF you're wrong? What if He IS there in unapproachable, holy light and you are completly, 100% wrong and there's no 'do-over' for you?

    April 6, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • Here and Now and Everywhere

      What if he's here and now and everywhere as a supreme God would have to be? Not out there somewhere waiting to take vengence to make you feel good. What if vengence and reward is taken every second, like creation and destruction?

      You are correct. Its not all a sham. The works are all around... and in more than one book that some have turned into just another idol. Forunately some still see the truth where ever its found and try to separate God's wheat from man's chaff.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:23 am |
    • NL

      I guess you also have to make a decision to view the miracles of Jesus as something more than the miracles of all the other workers of wonders circulating in that region at that time, or of magicians and modern-day scam artists. You have to admit that people can be easily fooled, even unintentionally. A person with just a bit of medical knowledge back then, or just the willingness to treat the ritually unclean, may have seemed like a miracle worker.

      You also have to decide if any of the miracle stories are actually true, or just a later addition. Paul doesn't even mention them, and he's the earliest canon source. If you line up the rest of the NT by probable date of authorship you tend to see that the miracles and supernatural nature of Jesus only seems to increase. It's almost like they're building him up the longer his return is delayed.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:15 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Mmmh, these truth of Jesus written in scriptures are a good start. I keep telling you folks, if you don't believe, Jesus will put a veil over you not to believe. If however, you shelf your egos (meaning stop having your egos butt heads with His truth), ask Him for forgiveness and ask that He guide you to His truth He will remove the veil covering you so you can seek His truth.

      Your choice.

      2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

      2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

      2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

      2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

      2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

      2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

      2 Thessalonians 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

      2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

      2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

      2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

      2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

      2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

      2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

      2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:58 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "if you don't believe, Jesus will put a veil over you not to believe."
      Ah, the same old argument that you have to take a leap of faith and believe in Jesus before he gives you reasons to believe in him. How does that account for all the supposed atheists that convert to Christianity? Wouldn't these folks have wanted to change first? Allowed themselves to believe in Jesus before finding all the 'reason' in science and so forth that 'convinces' them of Christ? Isn't that backwards to the story that these people eventually found intelligent reasons to believe in Jesus before finally doing so?

      If what you're saying were true then we should suspect that anyone who converts, including atheists, first made a choice to change into a Christian, and then found the reasons to be a Christian, not the other way around, right? Why would we trust the judgment, then, of someone wanting something to be true? By choosing to believe first all thinking that follows is irrational.

      April 8, 2011 at 8:31 am |
  4. charla nu

    Jehovah's army can not be forgotten, some of their allegories are true even to this day with their Wars. The murder, slavery, child sacrifices are ongoing and they should stand as is. They will be remembered for their genocidal and murderous ways that their book teaches. Judeo, Christianity and Islam are all the same.

    April 6, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
    • ROOTS, TRUNKS, BRANCHES and TREE TOPS

      We can't hear you until you start sharing more than your feelings.

      What is the name of your faith?

      What do you base your beilefs on?

      What are your religious rituals?

      Where is you religious history?

      What are your marraige customs? How yound are your brides and do they get to chose their husbands?

      We know the missionaries had a bad habit of burning other people holy books, but are you inferring they burned them all and no one made an effort to recover them thruogh oral tradition or hidden copies? Even the Maya went through the same thing and their works are ebing decoded from their pyramids etc. Is no effort like that happening for yor people? Its a sad story if that's true. you would think more of an effort would be made to recover such an important story.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:14 am |
    • HeavenSent

      charla, you believe all the propaganda from the Talmud worshipers. May Jesus bless you soul.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:45 pm |
    • ROOTS, TRUNKS, BRANCHES and TREE TOPS

      Charla Nu: Heaven Sent doesn't realize the Christain facist propaganda she spouts and then accuses others of believing propaganda. The usual double standard.

      I am still truly interested in learning more, if either you or "All of you don't know the real truth!!!!" can answer my questions above, offer up some accepted historical doc-umentation, texts or even an overview with more substance.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:47 pm |
  5. all of you all dont know the real truth!!!!

    LOL @JASON .....INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ........HAHAHAHHAHAHAH the original probably but not teh ones those stink ROMAN PEDAPHILE PAGANS CHANGED IN 325 AD.....U NEED TO CHECK THAT OUT B4 ANYTHING .....LOLOLOLOL

    April 6, 2011 at 1:35 pm |
    • ROOTS, TRUNKS, BRANCHES and TREE TOPS

      If we dig deep enough I'm sure we will find your people and beliefs have problems too, unless perhaps you are not human. Perhaps that's why you persist in calling everyone a fool without offering up any firm evidence other than your words.

      The emptiest barrels make the most noise.

      You really shouldn't come off so high and mighty before you have explained yourself enough for people to believe you. As far as we can see you're only fooling and lying to yourself. It might make you feel like somebody special, but God knows the truth and will put you in your place or provide you the honesty to tell the whole truth to yourself and others.

      We've asked for more than just tidbit and your ego trips. If that is all you can provide other than we all have to go read the pyramids, then its makes no sense to declare you know the truth and aren't telling. It would be accomplsh just as much to say nothing. Abe Lincoln who freed the slaves in the 1860's said "its better to keep you mouth shut and let people thing you're a fool, than to open it and prove it". So far it seems like you've insultingly done the latter.

      Tell us. How are marraiges performed in Ethiopia? How young are the brides allowed to be? Are they promised by the parents or are they allowed to choose who to marry?

      What are your religious rituals?

      April 7, 2011 at 2:58 am |
    • ROOTS, TRUNKS, BRANCHES and TREE TOPS

      Prove you're so special. If we dig deep enough I'm sure we will find your people and beliefs have problems too, unless perhaps you are not human. Perhaps that's why you persist in inferring everyone else is a fool without offering up any firm evidence other than your words.

      The emptiest barrels make the most noise.

      You really shouldn't come off so high and mighty before you have explained yourself enough for people to believe you. As far as we can see you're only fooling and lying to yourself. It might make you feel like somebody special, but God knows the truth and will put you in your place... or provide you the honesty to tell the whole truth to yourself and others.

      We've asked for more than just tidbits and your ego trips. If that is all you can provide, other than we all have to go read the pyramids, then its makes no sense to declare you know the truth and aren't telling. It would accomplsh just as much to say nothing. Abe Lincoln who freed the original southern slaves here in the 1860's, said "its better to keep you mouth shut and let people think you're a fool, than to open it and prove it". So far it seems like you've insultingly done the latter.

      Tell us. How are marraiges performed in Ethiopia? How young are the brides allowed to be? Are they promised by the parents or are they allowed to choose who to marry?

      How do you treat the poor, sick and handicapped?

      What are your religious rituals?

      Please try answering all these questions instead of just afew with partial or incorrect information like you seem to have done so far.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      All of you, I keep telling you life is just a test to see if you will love and follow Jesus (truth) so you can spiritually live on earth as it is in Heaven, dwell with Him for eternity or love and follow satan (lies) and spiritually die while on earth, then when you get to paradise, still do NOT believe, the Day of the Lord then off to the eternal flames, blotted out. No eternity for you.

      Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

      Deuteronomy 13:3

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:53 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      "All of you, I keep telling you life is just a test to see if you will love and follow Jesus (truth)"
      Sounds like we're just being bred and allowed to live for some kind of experiment, like cultures in a Petri dish. Jesus then examines each of us to see which has a positive reaction to the stimulus he introduces. Boy, does that ever give life a sense of meaning.

      April 8, 2011 at 12:16 am |
  6. Jason

    Yeah, the Bible itself presents a worldview, it presents itself and an ultimate standard. It has some cicular reasoning because if it stood on something else besides itself, than it wouldn't be an ultimate standard. The different authors, princes,prophets, apostles, shepards, etc all different writing styles, inspired by the Holy Spirit. That fact that the bible is the number one selling book ever, as well as the most attacked book ever are just some external proofs of it being the very word of God.

    It is also the basis for Logic and knowledge, preconditions of intelligbility, uniformity in nature, as well as absolute morality, it explains why the world is the way it is today, where the world is going, why is there so much hatred for the Jewish people, as well as Christians.

    For example the Koran cannot be God's word because it contradicts itself, it says Jesus is a prophet then later says that he isn't the Son of God, well how does that comport with what Jesus Said? Law of non-contradictions.

    All evolutionary claims are in fact logical fallacies. The Scientific method itself is a logical fallacy, check out some Karl Popper, and Thomas kuhn

    April 6, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Sagehillbilly

      Jason, Jesus neither claimed to be, nor said that he was, the son of G-d. And if you think your bible doesn't contradict itself then you haven't read it very closely.

      April 6, 2011 at 6:42 pm |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      If you don't believe in science, turn off your lights, TV, radio. Don't use your telephone or automobile. Get you water from the well you dig by hand. Cook only over an open fire and heat yourself that way too. Grow or hunt all your food. Bathe in the nearby lake, river, stream or pond. Make your own clothes from things you have grown or caught. Do your hunting with a bow or axe or spear. Live in a hut you built yourself by hand or tools you made. Don't read any books because they were printed using scientific inventions. Oh and yes, what are you doing using a computer. The scientific method is a fallacy. Yeah right. I suppose keeping your eyes closed because others told you not to open them is the way to learn the truth.

      April 7, 2011 at 2:39 am |
  7. all of you all dont know the real truth!!!!

    islam has no validness......like i said earlier why go to a middle man when you can go to the source .........muhammed after chritsinity ....which came after judaism .....lol teh saudi arabian penisula was allll called Abyssinia at one point .......arabs originally came from the ottoman empire region THEY HAD NOOOOOO ORIGIN WITHIN THAT land mass.....they later populated liek crazy thru their nomadic travels.....converting thru warfare their own culture and way of life upon the Nubians just as how the pale face man has done.......that whole land mass was alll called ABYSSINIA........THE NILE RIVER REGION

    April 6, 2011 at 10:59 am |
  8. all of you all dont know the real truth!!!!

    Thx many branches for the response...............

    good searching!! but still no proof.....PBS is not something written in stone you know.....they have speculations and hypothesis this and theory that right.....what i am speaking of is actually there for you and i to see.......and even measure the time lines of its structure ............no myths here......i disagree that the "dark africans" were part of the kingdoms you mentioned in the above.........NO.........THEY WERE THE KINGDOMS NOT APART OF .........!!!THE ARABS AND HYSKOS PEOPLE NEVER INFILTRATED TIL AFTER THOSE IN THE ABOVE WERE EITHER DEFEATED OR CONQUERED .........no olive looking ....nah none of that .....those pharohs were dark skinned people !!!!......one must trully VISIT the pyramids of Kemit to really see the history in its full.......like where we originally get Noah's ark from .......the ancient Egyptians had boats in which they sailed on the river in which it was believed that they can communicate with the Gods.....or even travel wheather it be in time or thru space ......this so called boat was called a NUARK........see the similarites ...nuark=noah's ark and these arks were createdand used wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy b4 the noah story ..........

    what do yu need to know about the Ethiopians ???

    well first off that they were the true Mothers an Fathers of this earth ..........look at it like this branches ........in business or in life when one needs something ....either advice or in business when you want the best ......one doesnt go to teh middle man one goes to the source for direction .......so why stop in ROME.......SUMERIA when i am telling you of the oldest people than can trace back their bones a million or more years ago.......you can google that to ......i think the ethiopian was given the name luna by modern scientist ......i think im not sure ....i will get the exact name n date for u.
    you may not remember personally of taking anything away because maybe pending on your lineage .......maybe your forefathers did the taking ......and raping and colonizing

    btw ......sorry about your job issue .....

    April 6, 2011 at 8:44 am |
    • Muneef

      Were the Ethiopians and Yemenies or rather say the Arabian Peninsular One Land that was named as the Land of Queen Sheba,or before the RedSea was created to separate both lands...?...if you find that being true facts then suggest the eldest land landed one was Mecca being the location of the first house of worship ever built which might been built by Adem....and has been rebuilt many times before and after Abraham....

      April 6, 2011 at 10:14 am |
    • Muneef

      Saba sura 34:
      In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
      There was indeed a sign for Sheba in their dwelling-place: Two gardens on the right hand and the left (as who should say): Eat of the provision of your Lord and render thanks to Him. A fair land and an indulgent Lord! (15) But they were froward, so We sent on them the flood of 'Iram, and in exchange for their two gardens gave them two gardens bearing bitter fruit, the tamarisk and here and there a lote-tree. (16) This We awarded them because of their ing-rat-i-tude. Punish We ever any save the in-g-rates? (17) And We set, between them and the towns which We had blessed, towns easy to be seen, and We made the stage between them easy, (saying): Travel in them safely both by night and day. (18) But they said: Our Lord! Make the stage between our journeys longer. And they wronged themselves, therefore We made them bywords (in the land) and scattered them abroad, a total scattering. Lo! herein verily are portents for each steadfast, grateful (heart). (19) And Satan indeed found his cal-cul-a-tion true concerning them, for they follow him, all save a group of true believers. (20) And he had no warrant whatsoever against them, save that We would know him who believeth in the Hereafter from him who is in doubt thereof; and thy Lord (O Muhammad) taketh note of all things. (21).

      April 6, 2011 at 6:48 pm |
    • charla nu

      Nu/Nun/Noone is the primordial water of creation the male and female aspects of nature, that is why they came up with that Noah's ark allegory, so they came up with their own story. They name the nuns of the catholic church after Nun except the nuns had no husband as the popes did not have wives, defying the laws of nature of male and female.
      When you are conceived in your mother's womb you are surrounded by water it is dark, when you are born lights on chaos.
      Nun would bring up the Gods and Goddesses every morning. Nun would come up like the Atlas statue, holding the world. Nun is the Creator of all the gods of the Suniverse. The religious savior story lasted 6,000 years and now their time has to end. It is not the end of the world it is the end of these fake religion murdering, slaughtering, spells, curses and those that reigned and caused harm know this. They are the ones running scared, their spirit beings part of them have caused harm to the earth, planet and stars and payback is mother. I would not want to be in their shoes. The Sun, Nature and all of its elements are highly intelligent and no one escapes that are guilty of crimes against humanity and the world that is why we see much chaos, they came in chaos and they will leave in chaos.
      The ones of today have stolen the African legend, burned, and buried it somewhere. And taken the African heritage as their own.

      April 6, 2011 at 7:40 pm |
    • charla nu

      But I want to add we all are part of the human race and should respect and help each other.

      April 6, 2011 at 8:01 pm |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      I understand that human life originated in Africa and migrated to the rest of the world from there. So one would expect the Roots to be in the general neighborhood. However, the roots have no purpose unless they grow into trunks and tree top branches. I don't agree you have to go back to just the roots. Hopefully I have advanced more than just the tales my mother read to me when I was small enough to set on her lap. Valuable experience, but it would have been terrible if I were satisfied to stay there.

      Many of my ancestors had their land taken away by Europeans and were forced to march thousands of miles halfway across the US in winter after being driven from their homes because gold was found on their land and many died along the way. The Jews, Armenians, Cambodians, Czarist Russians,and many, many others were not the only ones that suffered holocausts, starvations and unwarranted persecutions.

      On the other hand the rest of my ancestors. may have been forcing my Native American ancestors to get out of their ancestoral homes. Before that other Native Americans ancestors sided with the British in The American Rrevolutionary war, lost, were dragged off to be slaves just like the Africans and probably even married or had mixed blood children within the plantation slavery system. So you see. I have little stomach for racists and racial purists of any kind, white, black or other.

      As for history I agree that you have to read and see many things that don't all necessarily agree in every detail to get some idea of the truth. However, you have not supplied enough accurate or perhaps detailed enough to be considered accurate information for me to consider the validity of your thoughts. I did see where the Jesuits did paticipate in the wars that took place in Ethiopia between the beta Isreal and Ethiopian Christains around the same time the Ottomans invaded causing quite a troublesome time. However many of the books I've read and historical shows I've watched agree that the Ottomans did not come into being until after the Turks from central Asia invaded what we now call Turkey as started pushing the Eastern Orthodox Christains at the battle of Manzikert, about 1071 AD. The Ottomans did not start their empire until around 1300 AD and probably did not expand into Arabia, Egypt and Yemen until much later. Mohammed lived around 600 AD and Mecca and median were there many years before. So the Ottomans only came into the picture around the time Ethiopia was going through a big crisis when it was fighting internally and being violated by the Portugese and Jesuits. The claim that the Ottomans were in Arabia before Islam needs some proof.

      I would also be interested in learning how you learned these other truths. Unfortunately though I would love to, I do not have the money to come and decifer the pyramids and would worry about my safety even if i could. If these things are soooooo important, they should be in books. So where?

      April 6, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • Muneef

      ROOTS and TREE TOPS.

      The ottoman empire was the last of all Islamic empires that preceded it, actually it was the empire that had weakened Islam in terms of knowledge and inventions..

      April 6, 2011 at 8:38 pm |
    • Muneef

      ROOTS and TREE TOPS.

      http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/caliphs.htm
      http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/umayyad.htm
      http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/abbasid.htm
      http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/history/ottoman.htm

      April 6, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      Charla nu

      So this is verbal legend you are repeating or is there something written down somewhere that helps understand it better. Do I have to go there and hear the tales, in which case I will never know because i can't, or is there some way to find out in history or religious books? i am interested. Where do I start to learn more, from here in the US?

      April 7, 2011 at 2:10 am |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      Hi Muneef, me again Beyond Human Ego

      I learned a lot about the earlier Caliphates and the Ottomans in books called "Sea of Faith" about Christain/Muslim relations around the Mediteranean from 600-1565; and "What Went Wrong?" about the Ottoman Empire's decline. I also have abook I haven't started yet "The Ottoman Centuries". I will check out your links as well.

      I know that if it weren't for the earlier Caliphates not destroying the Greek Classics and building on them before returning the knowledge to Europe, that the Scientific on Philosophic logic as well as histories we have today would probably be missing a whole lot. Southern Spain was said to be a paradise for a while and Bagdad was one of the greatest cities and learning centers for a couple hundred years after Damascus until the mongols sacked it. Some Christains sects and Judaism were actually tolerated more in those caliphates than Catholic Europe of the time, as long as they paid their extra taxes and didn't ring church bells that would disrupt the call to prayer.

      How are you doing now? Hope all is safe and gettting better. Is it safe to say where you are generally? There's so much going on in so many places its hard to imagine which disturbance you may be near.

      April 7, 2011 at 2:24 am |
    • Muneef

      BHE.

      Hi there, am pleased that you are interested to read history although I am not much into it really but having read you needed sources,have done some searching for you and got those links...

      Am in Yemen,I live along the RedSea area at the city of Al.Hodeidah the main sea port of Northern side of Yemen...situation here less troubled than other areas but lately we are all over the news...but being in residential area a bit farther from the city business center we are at lesser trouble for the time being I guess....

      April 7, 2011 at 6:51 am |
    • beyond human ego

      Hi Muneef,

      Good to hear you're a little out of trouble's way. I know how you feel about history. There are many who do feel that way. Somewhere along the path of life, I learned it helps understand why things are the way they are, though like a lot of other things, its best not always to believe the first or everything you read.

      Yemen. Another place like Ethiopia we don't learn much about here in school. I was surprised that when I read the history of The Persian Empire, that the Persians once ruled Yemen long ago, as a colony I guess. I love the architecture of the old buildings I see on TV sometimes. Obviously a unique culture. Do all the men in your area still wear those big knifes on their belts, or was that just another part of Yemen? Good to hear your doing well.

      April 7, 2011 at 7:05 pm |
  9. Wonder Why?

    MAYBE:
    Age of Taurus the bull... the bull was worshipped (the Golden calf) and sacrificed.

    Age of Aries the goat, goats were sacrificed,

    Age of Pisces the fish, Jesus taught the desciples to be fishers of men, got sacrificed; the fish was early sign of Christains...you looked at the waters, you knew fish were there but could not see them – like the Holy Spirit...or maybe like the historical Jesus for some?

    It was all astrological symbolism.

    Age of Aquarius, the Waterbearer.

    Water Logic. Like water it goes with the flow that makes sense. It fits with the truth. Its not fixed in thought. It gives way when necessary, but not weak either. You saw the Tsunami. Perhaps flexible strength of mind, is the water to to be born by Aquarius. My flight of fancy for now.

    I posted earlier. Sometimes softens rough edges to use a different screen name in tough debates; and sometimes I choose a form that fits the conversation more – like God perceptions. Sometimes I just forget to change the last one used.

    April 6, 2011 at 2:37 am |
  10. MANY ROOTS TO MANY BRANCHES

    Archeology theorizes the Sphinx dates as far back as 10,000 BC and was bulit when the sun would rise between the paws in Leo. Atlantis on National Geographic a few weeks ago, was thought found beyond the Pillars of Hercules, just like Plato said: on sw coast of Spain under marshlands of mud; covered possibly by a tsunami. Ground radar was used to see patterns like the city was described; a large foundation where Temple of Poseidon should be. It was found after finding similar cities in the interior of Spain. They think tsunami survivors moved inland from the sea afterwards. Who knows if it is Atlantis or how old it might really be. Many times its been proven that ancient myths had some basis of truth in them. People thought Troy was H-omer's imagination until it was found.

    I am familiar with Egypt, the pyramids, Akhenaten, Isis, Osiris, H-orus, Seth, Ra, Amun, the pharoahs, the kingdoms etc. and that dark Africans were part of those kingdoms. I have a copy of the Book of the Dead, source of some Old Testament and New Testament thought. The Book of Hiram. Gnostic books, books on the Dead Sea Scrolls etc etc.

    What do I need to know about the Ethiopians? I read wiki about Beta Israel. Interesting. You're right. They don't teach much African history in the West. They should with other world history. I have seen a long running PBS special series where people traveled through African countries. It covered the people, geography and histories of the region, but I'm sure it just was just an overview.

    I know slavery still goes on today. It has since the beginning of time. I don't think its right. That or paying third world people dirt cheap salaries to take our jobs. I just read an article about most fishing boats off of South East Asia being nothing more than slave ships. I've seen several articles about people being slave trafficed into the US to work as prost-i-tutes, and shops that paint women's fingernails etc. So I am aware, but feel somewhat a victim myself, as I sit here without a job, that I did very well for many years.

    What are we supposed to give up to the Ethiopians? I don't remember personally taking anything from them.

    April 5, 2011 at 8:32 pm |
  11. Persecution Complex

    Its programmed into them, that they wiil be persecuted. You should show some sympathy and pity for her and the programmers that came up with such bull. Someone can't do their job right, so please follow these complex instructions to compensate. Right.

    April 5, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • Frederica

      PC, I'm only asking to remodel the automatic censorship, because it's looks doing a bad job. I think you have prejudices against Christians.

      April 6, 2011 at 12:45 am |
    • PC

      Frederica, I was raised as a fundamentalist one, hard core. I know how they teach you to think; like the whole non-fundementalist world is against you. I know you have predudices that you might not even realize as a result. There's no thinking about that. I know. The question is, will you learn to rise above them and follow Jesus' teachings, more than the desciples and the preachers that rant and rave about fear of the devil every sermon?

      I try my best to trust God to lead me, more than the fearing the devil and hell. Sometimes I think the devil and hell was mentioned more in church than God and Jesus' teachings. Sometimes made you wonder who was really being worshipped.

      April 6, 2011 at 3:18 am |
    • Frederica

      PC, I'm sorry about that, but I think you misheard them. The Bible tells us to fear God, fight against devils in His power and with His grace in us, and rescue people knowing the existence of hell. Our species need to be reminded of judgment and hell; otherwise, no one will reform the hellish conducts.

      April 6, 2011 at 9:23 am |
    • NL

      Frederica-
      Yes, people living happy, generally moral lives without Christ has always been seen by the zealous as a "hellish" situation needing correction, even by force. We have only to look at the history of the missionary experience with native groups worldwide to see evidence of this.

      April 6, 2011 at 10:18 am |
    • Frederica

      NL, Christian missionaries gave us the word of life, helped us setting up hospitals, schools and orphanages while secular Western governments suck up the native's blood. You don't realize how hellish humans are because you never look at victims. Missionaries are the only decent human beings on earth.

      April 6, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Spencer

      Missionaries aren't the only ones. I think the Peace Corps does great things for people, the national guard, there are every day heroes throughout the world that is not based on religion.

      April 6, 2011 at 1:16 pm |
    • Frederica

      Spencer, the Western Civilization has Christianity at its foundation. Your whatever conscience-ful thing is based on Christian teachings. It's easy to continue anything when the Christian pioneers did all the frame works and patterns. Today's West has changed but the majority still claims to be "Christian" and is dragging on its goodness. You guys are weird when you claim to be secular when in fact all the good things you have you received from Christianity. Such thanklessness reflects in today's kids.

      April 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm |
    • Frederica

      Bashing religion is something only ex-Christendom does. We ex-pagans see our original religions as something our ancestors could not helped. But Westerners attack Christianity as if it were their enemy though it's been their best, good mother. Christianity's enemy is truly evil; another immortal evidence Christianity is true and good.

      April 6, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • PC

      Frederica: See. You instantly prove the predudice I said you have and lacking compassion or understanding tell me I misheard for 20 years of almost constant doctrination; and viewing it from the outside looking in, for 30 some years afterwards. Perhaps you need to read Jesus words and study his actions more closely. They are often so out of sync with what the desciples or priests and preachers taught. Judge not lest ye be judge. Let whom who is without sin cast the first stone. And read some other religious texts trusting God the same way you read the Bible, looking for things that make sense, not ones that don't. If you don't want to understand others, you have no legitimacy in criticizing them. You would be no different than the religious leaderJesus crticized. You do realize that Jesus actually criticized the priests more than the average person don't you. Do you think that made Jesus anti-religious?

      And Christianity is filled with ideas that originated from the pagan cults it tried to fully replace. It was so much easier to allow the pagans some of their old celebrations and beliefs; and give them different names. Christmas replaced the winter solstice celebrations. Easter the rites of spring. There were no Christmas trees in Jesus' time or teachings or Easter bunnies or eggs either. The evergreen symbolized everlasting life like jesus and the fertility rites of spring and the rebirth of jesus bot symbolize the rebirth of nature. The clues are there if you look or not. That they are does not diminish the moral teachings in the Bible though. Its not an all or nothing. That kind of thought is only demanded by evil people, whether they wear priest robes, hold a bible in their hand or run a country by dictatorship.

      April 6, 2011 at 6:56 pm |
    • Dorianmode

      Frederica<
      Yeah right. Tell that to all the Hawaians that died when they were exposed to all the "exotic" diseases their immune systems had never seen, when the missionaries came to "save" them.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:35 am |
    • Frederica

      PC, Christianity is not that simple as you think. We are also commanded to judge what is right and wrong. And Jesus told the sinner not to sin anymore. We shouldn't make Christianity a sugar cane. It's a tough religion, the only true one with the Divine Savior. You obviously did not understand Christianity for decades.

      Christianity overruns paganism, you mean. Ethical sense is similar among most peoples, but Christianity is contrary to paganism from foundation. And it made mankind civilized a whole new unprecedented way. Christianity gave new meaning to all old things. Thank God it aboloished child-sacrifice in Pagan Europe as it does everywhere else now. Christianity is unique and incomparable on earth.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:19 am |
    • Frederica

      Dorian, Hawaiians have been happy with the Christian American prosperity. Diseases in encoutering of migrants are a tragedy but it'd happen sooner or later anyway. Casuality, abuses and damages without Christian ministries would have been a lot greater loss of human life all around the world. Humaneness, safety, freedom and human rights do not exist where Christianity is absent.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:25 am |
    • Frederica

      You guys should know that white people were pretty desperate for survival even until early 20th century in America. They didn't kill anyone for fun. What are you learning at schools?

      April 7, 2011 at 4:28 am |
    • NL

      Frederica-
      Missionaries use to kidnap native kids to school them. Their parents didn't know if they would ever seem again. Once in school they were beaten for speaking their own language and molested.

      That's how the missionaries taught the natives about Hell.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:21 am |
    • HeavenSent

      PC, if a programmer has a BIG ego, they will perpetually spin you through endless loops. Of course they won't get to the bottom line on any issue, it's all complexity and confusion for they work for job security issues only.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • PC

      Complexity is only confusion to those who are not smart enough to understand it and especially those who do not want to understand it. Its okay to be dumb so long as its only you who suffers for your own lack of effort. It's not okay to expect everyone else to be the same.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:40 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Frederica, great posts tonight. God Bless you for having the patience to tell the truth to the dry bones who have no eyes to see, nor ears to hear. Their circular arguments are ridiculous and only proves they aced their courses of professors who also hate Jesus and instilled this nonsense into their students. For this, they stay proud and do not humble themselves to read His truth.

      Amen. From the real HeavenSent ... just in case the phony one comes on to insult you later.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
    • PC saw this somewhere - wonder why?

      Frederica:

      John 14:2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you.

      If one is god/good for you so be it. Jesus did not say do your best to keep others out of the other mansions or that you would win a special halo if your mansion had the most people. That's man's teachings. Conceited ego. Your way is the only way. Do as you say or else because you know it all. Don't learn from anyone else because you know it all. Make everybody miserable just like you because God will give you heaven later with streets of gold. That's like the ultimate greed.

      Oh and by the way, I know people who have lived in Hawaii, with the common folk and word was they hate the mainlanders for what they did to their culture.

      Just wave the flag and the good book and everything you do is ok because God gives you special dispensation just like during the Crusades when Jerusalem's Street ran red with the blood ankle deep of Muslims, Jews, Eastern Orthodox Christains and anyone else that lived there before the Crusaders "Christains" of Western Europe got there,

      April 8, 2011 at 12:28 am |
  12. michael

    When a large group of people influence law, start wars, kill,and protest because they believe the Bible is the actual word of God rather than a book of myths, it is very important who wrote it. If it can be shown that religious leaders of the time wrote the Bible, using it as a way to push their agenda, then it most certainly takes the wind out of arguments that it is the word of God.

    April 5, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • beyond human ego

      The Greek word inappropriately translated as WORD was LOGOS. It would more appropriately have been translated as the LOGIC of God. LOGOS / LOGIC. Then the misleading literalism would not have caused so much damage, mental and physical, through out the years.

      Can we see what a difference, it would be to emphasize the LOGIC of God instead of the WORD. The LOGIC is not limited like the WORD It is also obvious, by cause and effect;, not because "someone said so and these things aren't supposed to make sense". You can question the LOGIC of God. You have to, in order to understand it. It's all around you and science can help in the knowledge. Things make sense and don't drive people mad.

      Unfortunately, there will always be agendas that we don't agree with. That's why we have a democracy that is structured to protect the rights of minorities as well as the majority.

      And the Bible is not all myth, allegory and parable though there is meaning in all of those literary forms. There has to be a fair connection to history or it never would have been believable in any way from the beginning.

      There are good things in the Bible as well as bad. It was written by man, trying to understand. What is chosen, is determined by the person reading, not the book, and not all people chose poorly. In our more advanced knowledge and using what we've learned of the LOGIC of God, so much more than our ancestors, we should be able to chose more wisely from it, plus other books as our knowledge of the LOGIC of God grows. This is what Faith in God should be. The faith that in God, we the individual can trust God to inspire us each as we are prepared to receive.

      April 5, 2011 at 10:47 pm |
    • Saw this somewhere

      1. "Ok, say that there is an actual 'being' that is the first cause of the universe."

      Never said nuthin bout a first cause. More like an eternal cause. Creation and destruction goes on eternal every milli micro second. There was no beginning there will be no end. Why waste time eternally postulating about what created God or what came before the Big Bang or when we're all gonna go together in some apocalypse? What purpose does it serve in everyday life? As far as a being... the universe is the being, not something conceitedly created in human image. The infinite universe in its original meaning. There is only one. Infinitely large. Infinitely small. Within and outside you.

      2."What do we know about it?"

      First, what scientific theories have proven. We also know that there are theories based on those theories already proven, that while based on such experience, have not been proven. We know science, philosophy, religions, mystics and many other things make such theories based on experience that are not yet fully understood or proven.

      3. "What if its physics are different from ours?"

      Its physics are ours. Its not our choice. We are not the measure. It is. If there's something we don't know yet, that does not mean it breaks natural law. It just means we are too dumb to fully understand all of natural law.

      You were created "within God's likeness", not to look like God, as "in God's likeness might imply". "Within" and "in" can mean the same thing, but "in" can lead to destructive egos that then lead and led to even worse misunderstandings.

      4. "What if its logic is different from ours?"

      See #3

      5. "What if its mathematics is different from ours?"

      See #3

      6. "What makes you think that it is even aware of us little pipsqueaks or cares one whit about our fates?

      We are not the center of the universe. Me or you or the Pope or preacher or Dalai llama etc. That being said, it should be considered... the overwhelming complexities that have existed throughout your life to sustain you every second of every day. What a miracle. Are you not thankful when you consider that alone, much less the things that sustained your ancestors to get to you? The more anyone has learned from science the more that is understood. Since we exist within its being, every breath and heartbeat is supported by it. On the other hand, you are correct to consider our lack of importance to the overall big picture. We influence what we can, but our will is not free. We do not alway get to chose how the big picture will treat us and we like to think we have free will enough at least to control how we react, but even that is shaped by all our prior learning experiences concious and unconcious. These things are also why we can not be the measure of what is good and what is evil when discussing what It does or has done. The overall picture, again, is way beyond our ability to judge.

      7. "One can make up properties for it – desires, needs, wants or intentions – but that does not make it so".

      Think I said above what makes it so. Nuthin that I/we made up. Things I/we don't understand sometimes, very true. We work on It. It... is the only thing that's certain about... It... though.

      Sometimes doses of Eastern thought will cure the Western perception sickness and put true religion and science back in sync making a better world if that is what we want. Sometimes we're just too stubborn and lazy and conceited thinking that we're already as good as we're ever gonna get. That stands as a roadblock to understanding It. Priests and Scientist both sometimes cause that.

      April 5, 2011 at 10:50 pm |
    • Maybe

      Saw this somewhere,

      Thanks for reposting this ... I was the OP and BG (?) was the responder. I lost track of where it was.

      So, BG,

      I agree with many things that you say, and I thank you for your thoughtful response.

      Doesn't it all come down to how we conduct our daily lives? Considering that we don't know what we don't know until we know that we don't know it (whew!), shall we grab onto hazy supernatural beliefs and insist that they are reality?

      Most of the world does not perform ritual animal or human sacrifice anymore, but it was certainly common in the past. They were *sure* that it was necessary and effective. This is not so, apparently; and we stopped doing them. How long did it take people to figure out the lack of cause and effect there... and the futility of trying to control things that way?

      "I/we don't know" chafes, and some people cannot seem to abide it. "I/we don't know... yet" is better. Let's keep looking, and be open for surprises. In the mean time, live well using what we *do* know. Flights of fancy are enjoyable and are perhaps even useful in the process of discovering things, but to live there in the fantasy as if it were real and to demand that others accept it... or else, causes way too much strife.

      April 5, 2011 at 11:49 pm |
    • Wonder Why?

      MAYBE:
      Remember when we were first learning to count? If anyone had told us about Algebra, Chemistry, or Quantum Physics, we would have thought they were far out flights of fancy; but they wouldn't be any less true because we thought that.

      A lot of understanding is perception and based on what your past has prepared you for.

      The problem wouldn't have been that someone told us about the advanced subjects.

      The problem would only have been if they insisted we know them instantly without explanation, or we would be punished. That is usually the problem; not understanding or respecting that people are always on different levels. That is usually the cause of all these disagreements. Its also why a lot of parable, allegory and metaphor are used in religious texts, so people only learn when they are ready. Unfortunately I fear that learning is becoming a lost art ,by the level of some of these posts.

      Understanding that people will always be on different levels is why I believe Jesus, Gandi and other such enlightened teachers, taught tolerance and undertstanding, more than fear and judgement.

      .

      April 6, 2011 at 2:01 am |
    • Wonder Why?

      Wonder Why?

      MAYBE:
      Age of Taurus the bull... the bull was worshipped (the Golden calf) and sacrificed.

      Age of Aries the goat, goats were sacrificed,

      Age of Pisces the fish, Jesus taught the desciples to be fishers of men, got sacrificed; the fish was early sign of Christains...you looked at the waters, you knew fish were there but could not see them – like the Holy Spirit...or maybe like the historical Jesus for some?

      It was all astrological symbolism.

      Age of Aquarius, the Waterbearer.

      Water Logic. Like water it goes with the flow that makes sense. It fits with the truth. Its not fixed in thought. It gives way when necessary, but not weak either. You saw the Tsunami. Perhaps flexible strength of mind, is the water to to be born by Aquarius. My flight of fancy for now.

      I posted earlier. Sometimes softens rough edges to use a different screen name in tough debates; and sometimes I choose a form that fits the conversation more – like God perceptions. Sometimes I just forget to change the last one used.

      April 6, 2011 at 3:23 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I'm not going to start this debate over again with new bloggers that want to jump in with questions that were answered 20-30 articles ago. Time to do you homework and read backwards the last 30 articles then and only then will you catch up with the old timers on this blog.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:13 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      Then why do you not do your homework and read back over all of the articles and see how many times your c.ockamamie as.sertions have been debunked?.... especially that wide-eyed-wonder one about how the old Middle Eastern codgers knew stuff about the Earth. Over and over you continue to post it, though.

      If you do not wish to have encounters with new posters, perhaps it is time for you to move on.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Magic, you were suppose to look for the answers in your scientific journals and see when they posted those truths.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 9:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Magic, I tried to post this originally to you, but like clockwork, this blog sends it elsewhere.

      Here it is again ...

      Why should I move on? For what? To give you and the phony heavensent clear reign to spew your lies. No thank you. And you? When are you going to move out of mom and dads, get a job?

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 9:56 pm |
    • Beond Human Ego saw this somewhere - wonder why?

      To Heaven Sent:

      John 14:2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you.

      April 8, 2011 at 12:13 am |
  13. Muneef

    Abu Hanifah;
    Many people – including Muslims ask: “Where is God or Allah? What Image does God or Allah have?”
    These questions cannot be easily answered, but let’s see how Imam Abu Hanifah responded when he was asked such questions by nonbelievers.

    To those who ask: “Where is God or Allah?”

    The atheists asked Abu Hanifah:
    “When was your Lord born?”

    Abu Hanifah replied: 
    “Allah existed first –   before history and before time.

    He added: 
    “What comes before three?”

    They replied: “Two.” 

    He asked: 
    “What comes before two?”

    They replied: “One.”

    Abu Hanifah said: 
    “What comes before one?”

    They replied: “Nothing.”

    He said: “If the number ‘one’ is not preceded by anything, then how can the True One and Only God (Allah) be preceded by anything. Allah  is Ancient and Eternal. Nothing precedes Him.”

    They asked: 
    “In which direction does your Lord move?”

    He asked: “If you bring a lantern into a dark place, in which direction will its light move?”

    They replied: “In every direction.”

    Abu Hanifah said: 
    “If this is how the lan-tern’s light r-ad-ia-tes, then how about Allah’s Light – the Light of the Heavens and the Earth?”

    They said: “Define your Lord’s en-t-ity. Is your Lord solid like iron; liquid like water; or gas-e-ous like smoke or va-por?”

    He asked: “Have you ever sat beside a dying patient?”

    They said: “Yes, we have.

    He added: "Did he speak to you after he was pro-noun-ced dead?"  

    They said: "No."

    Abu Hanifah asked: “Before he died, did he not talk and move?”

    They said: “Yes.”

    He said: “What changed him?”

    They said: “His soul departed.”  

    He said: “Then isn’t it true that his soul left his body?

    They said: “Yes.”

    Abu Hanifah asked: “Could you describe his soul? Is it solid like iron; liq-uid like water; or gas-e-ous like smoke or va-por?”

    They replied: “We know nothing about it.”

    He said: “If you cannot define the en-t-ity of this created soul, then how can you expect me to describe the Divine En-t-ity.”
    **********
    Let’s repeat this prayer  together: “Oh, Allah.”

    Allah, help me to uphold the truth against ty-r-ants; and prevent me from advocating in-just-ice to gain the ap-pla-use of the weak.

    Oh Allah, if you make me rich, do not deprive me of happiness.

    If you grant me strength, do not take away my mental fa-c-u-lties.

    If you make me successful, do not deprive me of modesty.

    If you make me modest, do not deprive me of my pride and dig-nity.

    Oh Allah, teach me to love others as much as I love myself.

    Teach me to judge myself before I judge others.

    Teach me that tolerance is the greatest strength.
    And that ven-ge-ance is the first sign of weakness.

    Oh Allah,  if you grant me suc-cess,do not blind me by van-i-ty.

    Do not make me de-spair if I fail.

    Please let me always remember that failure pre-ced-es success.

    Oh Allah, if you deprive me of my wealth, do not let me de-spair.

    If you take away my success, give me the strength to overcome failure.

    If you deprive me of good health, do not deprive me of faith.

    Oh Allah, if I hurt others, give me the strength to  apologize.

    If people hurt me, give me the strength to forgive.

    If I am ob-liv-i-ous to Thee, do not deprive me of Your Forgiveness and Patience.

    Oh Allah, You are the All-Powerful, All-Merciful and All-Capable Ameen.

     

    April 5, 2011 at 2:09 pm |
    • beyond human ego

      Thanks Muneef. I hope this finds you well and safe. Thanks for the text. I will save a copy. If only everyone could stress such wisdom more, we would all be better off.

      What text does it come from? It doesn't seem to be from the Koran, but I must confess I have not read it all. The style seems different from what I have read though. Is it from one of the following commentaries maybe?

      Is there a standard set of books that follow the Koran for all Muslims or are they different for different sects... like the different books used by diferent sects of Christianity?

      Still hoping your people may find peaceful and honorable resolution for all the differences.... and that you, your family and freinds stay safe.

      April 5, 2011 at 10:18 pm |
    • Muneef

      The Rightly-Guided Caliphs & The Four Imams
      Contents
      The First Caliph, Abu Bakr (632-634 A.C.)
      The Second Caliph, 'Umar (634-644 A.C.)
      The Third Caliph, Uthman (644-656 A.C.)
      The Fourth Caliph, Ali (656-661 A.C.)
      Abu Hanifa
      Shafi'i
      Malik
      Ahmad
      http://www.islamicweb.com/history/caliphs_imams.htm

      THE FOUR GREAT IMAAMS 
      IMAAM ABU HANIFAH (R.A.) 
      IMAAM MAALIK (R.A.) 
      IMAAM SHAFI’EE (R.A.) 
      IMAAM AHMAD (R.A.) 
      http://www.inter-islam.org/Biographies/4imam.htm

      April 6, 2011 at 9:03 am |
    • Muneef

      A man went to Hazrat Ali Ben Abi Taleb and asked him the answers of the following four questions :

      1.    What is “Wajeb” (Obligatory) and what is”Awjab” (most obligatory).

      2.    What is “Qareeb” (Near) and what is “Aqrab” (nearest).

      3.    What is “Ajeeb” (strange) and what is “A’ajab” (strangest).

      4.    What is “Sa’ab” (difficult) and what is “Asa’ab” (most difficult).

      Hazrat Ali replied as follows: 
      Obligatory is the obedience of God and most obligatory is to abandon sins.

      Near is the Day of Judgment and nearest is the death.

      Strange is this World and strangest is to love this world.

      Difficult is grave and most difficult is going to it without preparation.

      April 6, 2011 at 9:45 am |
    • Cedar Rapids

      "He said: “If the number ‘one’ is not preceded by anything, then how can the True One and Only God (Allah) be preceded by anything. Allah is Ancient and Eternal. Nothing precedes Him.”

      Well the number 1 is a mathematical figure used for counting and can hardly be equated to a supposed linear time line of a diety. Poor comparison, especially as it could also be argued that if you are counting numbers down in increments of 1 then the next number after 0 is -1

      He said: “What changed him?” They said: “His soul departed.”
      erm, no he died, atheists do not generally believe in a soul so unlikely they would have answered thus.

      April 6, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • Original Meaning

      CEDAR RAPIDS:

      "He said: “If the number ‘one’ is not preceded by anything, then how can the True One and Only God (Allah) be preceded by anything. Allah is Ancient and Eternal. Nothing precedes Him.”

      Well the number 1 is a mathematical figure used for counting and can hardly be equated to a supposed linear time line of a diety. Poor comparison, especially as it could also be argued that if you are counting numbers down in increments of 1 then the next number after 0 is -1

      OM:

      "Universe" originally meant, "everything that ever was and is and will be"; before scientists started getting all cute with their own faith driven beliefs. Don't say scientists don't have faith. They base it on experience just like honest religious people and yes, there are some deluded scientists as well as some religious people. Sometimes they are pretty good at determining what they can do, but not so good on knowing whether they should or not. So they aren't delusion free as some might see here. Maybe not.

      "Uni" in universe means ONE and was meant to mean ONE and only ONE. Sound familiar.

      Now scientists postulate alternate universes etc. (by the way which some speculation considers might be the origins of what some see as the spirit world, ghosts, UFO's and leprechauns etc. Those things that just drive you guys crazy:).

      Ever here of 2 dimensional flat land. Carl Sagan, a very famous scientist, used flat land in his TV show COSMOS, to help us understand these possible alternate dimensions. If we all lived on flat land, we'd be 2 dimensions instead of 3 we perceive now. We would be points, lines, squares, circles and other 2 dimensional figures. We would only experience other flat landers however, as points and lines.

      We would of course all be the various 2 dimensional shapes mentioned earlier, but our fellow flat landers would not be able to perceive that... unless they somehow rose above flat land and were able to look down on it, to see the squares, circles etc. Outside of that, even though sharing the same dimension as other flatlanders, we would never be able to see how things truly are, though we might be able to imagine it with effort like scientists imagine how distant galaxies etc and sub-atomic matter, both of which they have no complete picture.

      Now the "spiritual" part comes in, when a three dimensional object floats through flat land. To flatlanders it would just look like a flatlander suddenly appearing, possibly doing something no one had ever seen before; changing shapes, and then disappearing as it moved through flatland. It might even move through or appear all around a flatlander. If a flatlander were simultaneously blown above flat land, they might even get a glance of what a three dimensional object looked like.

      Either way, whether the flatlander remained on flat land and saw the apparition pass through change shapes mysteriously, or rose above flatland and got a glimpse of the full 3 dimensional object.... if they told a fellow flatlanders who had never seen such a thing, they would surely be derided and called delusional. Sound familiar. Now remember its scientists not priests who are postualting such alternate or multiple dimensions. Reconcile that.

      Scientists also postulate anti-matter just like your negative number analogy. So perhaps the old analogy didn't quite fit modern mathmatics. Still you should be able to understand the intent, with just a little brain effort.

      So what are called alternate universe's (additional dimensions) and anti-matter are still part of that ONE universe. Just because we open another book of things we didn't know, doesn't actually mean we discovered a whole new universe. That's just dumb limited perception, if I we're actually thinking that way. All we really did was discover a part of the iniverse that always existed, we just didn't know about it before.

      CEDAR RAPIDS:

      He said: “What changed him?” They said: “His soul departed.”
      erm, no he died, atheists do not generally believe in a soul so unlikely they would have answered thus.

      OM:

      Who died and left atheists God? Did I miss some great transformation of everything? Why are they the only ones allowed to determine which and how definitions are used? Before answering you need to consider that God does not have to be in the human form that gets torn apart by atheists so much, and really just reflects mans ego more than what God actually is. God in human form is just a Western European concept, that allows Wesern European influenced atheists and non-atheists both, to keep both groups stuck in ignorance arguing over cartoon concepts. One side is just as deluded as the other. What a waste.

      Regarding the soul: There have been scientific tests where the weight of the body actually decreases at the time of death and no one has been able to say why. I guess because they couldn't. Instantly decaying matter seems a little far fetched and a last exhale didn't cut it either.

      Regardless though, there can be no proof pro or con until the death is personally experienced. Just like flat land. If enough people experience something, you have to wonder...not undconditional belief, but at least wonder.

      Many unknowledgeable people felt they had no proof the world was round until they saw it from the space missions. Even then some still thought it was faked and the western God was still in the clouds. Does that mean the world is not round? No. Bottom line, as far as we know, death has to be experienced completely personally to be known for sure and for either side to be as certain as they swear.

      From a Popular Science Article:

      Scientists once believed that Newtonian physics could answer all the questions in the universe. When they ventured into the sub-atomic realm, though, Newtonian physics no longer applied. But quantum physics did. Similarly, the near-death experience could be another state of consciousness with a different set of rules than what we currently understand, and beyond the limits of what current scientific methods can explain.

      "When you study mind and brain, you see that, although in many circ-umstances this practical model we have developed – mind and brain are the same thing – is fine, when you go to an extreme environment like during a cardiac arrest…they don't seem to apply anymore," says Parnia. "It may suggest that there's something that hasn't been discovered scientifically."

      Wow, What was that alst statement again? "It may suggest that there's something that hasn't been discovered scientifically." Blasphemy, Heresy or Truth? The magazine was Popular Science? Contemplate.

      April 6, 2011 at 6:13 pm |
  14. all of you all dont know the real truth!!!!

    and another thing Branches.....i dont read a specific bible my friend .......read anyone of them and you will gain some form of truth ......if you trully seek.......i READ HISTORY BOOKS my man ......!!! i like facts more you know.........facts like civilization began on teh river Nile!!! check it out for your self .....but you knowq what its just too hard for you all to give it up to the ETHIOPIANS .......trust me slavery still exists all day every day ......

    April 5, 2011 at 8:17 am |
    • MANY ROOTS TO MANY BRANCHES

      all of you don't... This wiil take a few posts until I find the dirty word that isn't.

      You are writing to a historian. No one knows all of history, but libraries and bookstores have been one of my best freinds for almost 50 years. History, philosophy, archaeology, religion, science, psychology and other non-fiction books are my preferences; with the emphasis on history mainly. I also watch many related serious videos on the same sbjects.

      As for Egypt being the oldest civilization on earth, many books put Sumeria in Iraq and Mohendarro in India earlier... or at least in the same general time frame. Jericho is the oldest city I know of dating to 8000 BC if I remember correctly... and Catal Hyuk in Turkey is in that general time frame.

      April 5, 2011 at 6:59 pm |
    • MANY ROOTS TO MANY BRANCHES

      Archeology theorizes the Sphinx dates as far back as 10,000 BC and was bulit when the sun would rise between the paws in Leo. Atlantis on National Geographic a few weeks ago, was thought found beyond the Pillars of Hercules, just like Plato said: on sw coast of Spain under marshlands of mud; covered possibly by a tsunami. Ground radar was used to see patterns like the city was described; a large foundation where Temple of Poseidon should be. It was found after finding similar cities in the interior of Spain. They think tsunami survivors moved inland from the sea afterwards. Who knows if it is Atlantis or how old it might really be. Many times its been proven that ancient myths had some basis of truth in them. People thought Troy was H-omer's imagination until it was found.

      I am familiar with Egypt, the pyramids, Akhenaten, Isis, Osiris, H-orus, Seth, Ra, Amun, the pharoahs, the kingdoms etc. and that dark Africans were part of those kingdoms. I have a copy of the Book of the Dead, source of some Old Testament and New Testament thought. The Book of Hiram. Gnostic books, books on the Dead Sea Scrolls etc etc.

      What do I need to know about the Ethiopians? I read wiki about Beta Israel. Interesting. You're right. They don't teach much African history in the West. They should with other world history. I have seen a long running PBS special series where people traveled through African countries. It covered the people, geography and histories of the region, but I'm sure it just was just an overview.

      I know slavery still goes on today. It has since the beginning of time. I don't think its right. That or paying third world people dirt cheap salaries to take our jobs. I just read an article about most fishing boats off of South East Asia being nothing more than slave ships. I've seen several articles about people being slave trafficed into the US to work as prost-i-tutes, and shops that paint women's fingernails etc. So I am aware, but feel somewhat a victim myself, as I sit here without a job, that I did very well for many years.

      What are we supposed to give up to the Ethiopians? I don't remember personally taking anything from them.

      April 5, 2011 at 8:34 pm |
    • Dorianmode

      You again !
      Well I see you have discovered where your caps lock key is. Now could you start working on your spelling and punctuation. We all would be ever so grateful.
      Psssttt.....by the way, this is the Belief Blog, not the geography blog.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:15 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Many Roots, have you read about Egypt in the Bible? There are 100s of passages that will provide you with His truth.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 5:10 pm |
    • MANY ROOTS TO MANY BRANCHES

      Heaven Sent: Read and had them read to me many, many times. The Bible is not the only Book on Egypt or God that exists though and shouldn't be an idol.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Many Roots, your history books will not save your soul. Nor will any of the phony religions out there. Only Jesus can save your soul. The only way to know Jesus is to read the letter (the Bible) He wrote to all of us. His letter tells us what He wants for us and what He wants from us.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 9:19 pm |
    • MANY ROOTS TO MANY BRANCHES

      John 14:2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you.

      April 8, 2011 at 12:06 am |
  15. ALGEBRA

    Yes. Don't be lazy in the truth, but don't study just the Bible. God doesn't live in just one book or one hous/temple. Its a lot more than that.

    April 5, 2011 at 3:25 am |
    • Frederica

      @Algebra: atheists are making comments against the Bible they don't have understanding by not-reading. They weren't talking about math, though math is necessary to understand the Bible.

      April 6, 2011 at 12:48 am |
    • ALGEBRA

      Frederica:

      Their big argument is always that your faith has no truth; that it is totally delusional. I know better. To some degree you do the same to them. I still know better,

      They like science and math, so I was trying to state that in a mathematical formula, that what they pride themselves as their scientific brains, might comprehend. True faith has to be based in truth. If their is no truth it is delusional. There are diffent kinds of truths though and that's the point that is missed. If you could back up your faith with ideas outside the Bible, they might understand more, if they want to. Some just never care to show compassion and possibly really are evil.

      Unfortunately they can't see that they are just as pig headed as they accuse you of being. They think they have all the truth and you have all the delusion. You think the same about them. Neither view accomplishes anything until you can speak to each other with compassion, instead of at each other.

      I agree the programmer or the filterer of words is terrible. It takes 4 or 5 times what it should for stupid reasons to get the words that aren't bad out, while some that obviously are slide on by. Keeps me up way too late.

      April 6, 2011 at 3:00 am |
    • Da King

      Al,
      The Bible is spiritually discerned. Until the Spirit of God is in you, you will not be able to understand the things of the Spirit.
      I hope he comes to you someday. It is a wonderful and life changing event. If you believe what Jesus says you are on your way. Science is so Boring compared to living with Gods power and love in your life. Go for it.

      April 6, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      DA KING

      Any God worth loving would not give us a science that is not in line with God's law. The point is that God is and controls everything. If you don't believe that, you limit God and even Abraham when he smashed the idols so many years ago, knew it was a sin to limit God. So that being said true religion and true science both are efforts to understand God's law. They must be in agreement, unless you think god is the deceiver. the problem is that science and religion both are mans attempt to understand God and therefore has man's flawed understanding embedded just like science at the edge of its understanding isn't quite sure. But you expect the light to come on when you flip the switch, just like you expect to be rewarded when you get right with God. Its not really about being exciting or boring. Its about being in sync or in balance with Gods law. Again, both true religion and true science are in sync with each other and put man insync with God's law.

      April 7, 2011 at 12:54 am |
    • Dorianmode

      Agree. Have a couple friends that I know personally who have left here because their sincere, respectful posts were moded and never appeared. Actually the statement that your post is "awaiting moderation" is a lie. It is simply "dumped" by an automatic filter. No one reads them, and no one cares. Supposedly the Belief Blog has editors, but they are not reading posts to "moderate" them. Not sure what they do.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:06 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Algebra, if you don't follow Jesus' truth in the Bible, you follow satan's lies.

      2 Choices for your free will.

      Choose wisely, your soul depends on it.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • ALGEBRA

      And pharoah hardens her heart again. You shoun't make an idol out of a book. God is everywhere. If you only want to see Satan everywhere that says more about what is in your heart than mine.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:09 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Algebra, since the foundation of the world and the beginning of this 2nd earth age (eon), there have been deceivers twisting and contorting Jesus' truth. They want you to follow their lies, but, their lies won't save your soul. Only Jesus can save your soul. The only way to know what Jesus wants for you and what He wants from you is to read His letter (the Bible) He wrote to All of us. After you read it, comprehend what He's written (by shelving your ego and go humble), then apply what He's written to your life.

      Your soul depends on knowing Him. There is no excuse for not reading His letter He sent to us.

      Amen and God Bless.

      April 7, 2011 at 9:13 pm |
    • ALGEBRA

      Heaven Sent:

      You speak half truths based on partial investigations. How does anyone on here know you aren't the deceiver you warn of?

      Only God is certain of itself. Learn something about the history of your letter outside of your letter.

      If I live only in my house and say my house is all that's real, that's an illness. If you stay in your house and keep your illness to yourself that is not as bad as expecting everyone else to come into your house with you and never benture out either. Staying alone only hurts yourself. Inviting or demanding that others lock themselves up in your house, is not the mercy Jesus taught.

      God's house is so much bigger than you restrict yourself to and try to restrict others. Your letter is not an idol and you should not treat it that way. It is a sin to limit God to your desires the way you do. You need to have more true faith in God and investigate God's love everywhere without thinking you already know everything about it. You are not God in its entirety. You should not speak so as a result.

      April 7, 2011 at 11:58 pm |
    • ALGEBRA

      Heaven Sent:

      John 14:2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you.

      April 8, 2011 at 12:00 am |
  16. Frederica

    @Nonimus, the answer is in John chapter 8, Galatians chapter 5, and II Peter chapter 2.
    @LoneZero, if you want reply from me, write a short comment like Nonimus. Many times, I can't even access to the site page and my long comments easily get blocked. But if you are serious, just get a study Bible and read! Don't be lazy on quest for truth.

    April 5, 2011 at 12:02 am |
  17. Arthur Pennington

    d

    April 4, 2011 at 10:56 pm |
  18. Frederica

    CNN, you are such evil activists. If you brainwash America, you'll only lose. Stop your moderation. Why do you moderate normal statements while leaving alone swearings and threats?

    April 4, 2011 at 10:51 pm |
    • Amused

      Evil Activists??? You believe the search for truth is evil? Why?

      April 5, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • Stunned

      @Frederica,
      "Stop your moderation. [CNN]"

      How many times do you need to be told - and to see @Reality's word list - before it sinks into your numb skull that there is an automatic word filter here.

      April 5, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Stunned wrote: "How many times do you need to be told – and to see @Reality's word list – before it sinks into your numb skull that there is an automatic word filter here."

      Since it isn't written in the New Testament, she won't believe it...

      April 5, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • Persecution Complex

      Its programmed into them, that they wiil be persecuted. You should show some sympathy and pity for her and the programmers that came up with such bull. Someone can't do their job right, so please follow these complex instructions to compensate. Right.

      April 5, 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    • Frederica

      Guys, I'm referring to the automatic system itself as well. Although there may be something else. The list is not everything. I think CNN should do better job than this.

      April 6, 2011 at 12:42 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Frederica, don't be fooled, there are real moderators on this site blocking Christians postings. Unless we make it simple and not detailed, our posts don't go through.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • Persecution Complex

      Heaven Sent: it really is just awfully dumb programming. My posts get zapped just as much as yours. Have a little more faith in God to watch over you instead of letting church leaders tell you everyone is out to get you. It is that persecution complex that leads to more evil than goodness, because it justifies you not having to understand.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      PC, I know better. My career and my personal life were destroyed by big egos. Therefore, the day you walked in my shoes and know how big egos are a detriment to others is the day you can tell me differently.

      P.S. My degree is MIS.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 5:06 pm |
    • Persecution Complex

      Heaven sent: I worked 36 years in the business after Honor Society and Deans List in the same subject. My career however was ruined not by those who prided theirself in knowledge, but rather by those who prided theirself in quick and half way done... and their glorification by bosses who just wanted it quick. They had unjustified egos too. When my stuff was done you didn't need to go back and fix it over and over and over like theirs. Theirs was cheaper the first time but mine was cheaper for all time. So that was my persecution and how my life was ruined. Like a freind said if you want it really bad that's just how you'll get. Religion is the same.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • Could It Be?

      HeavenSent,

      I think it was you, for one, who said that we are not robots. Job retention sometimes does not happen solely due to technical abilities, but is also due to successful human interaction.

      If your 'people skills' on the job were anything like those which you display here (rigid, self-righteous, condemning, obtuse and paranoid), it is not surprising that you were replaced.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:17 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Could It Be? Actually, my boss used me as an escape goat for not knowing her job and wanting to rid my job because of her own fear. She, and all the other managers that followed her deceit, fell due to their own accord. Truth won out, even though it took the bean counters to get off their duffs and say "enough is enough, you spent millions to get this person and it didn't work".

      As far as all you other descriptions of me, you sound like you don't want to hear Jesus' truth and are lulled by satan's lies over the years. Too bad. I stand for Jesus' truth and nothing but His truth. If it bothers you. Good. Time to hear His truth over all the lies out there.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 7:42 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      PC, I hear you loud and clear. There are too many false programmers in the world that purposely hoop you through endless loops to prove they are min-gods, hence, you need them to fix their screwed uped programming. I was taught by the old school of being precise and to the point too. The new kids in programming do want a quick fix that always costs the company millions in repairs. As far as managers are concerned, first they learned how to spell manager, now they are one.

      God Bless you. You fought in the true trenches with ravenous wolves who know nothing and have foundations built upon sands.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 7:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Could it be? What is rigid, self-righteous, condemning, obtuse is telling folks Jesus' truth, not lies of satan. I'm not blogging to stroke people's ego of what they WANT to hear. I'm posting Jesus' truth in what they NEED to hear. Big difference. If folks get miffed because their little bubbles of lies were burst. Too bad. At least their souls get to begin to be saved for hearing His truth instead of staying in denial that the lies have done for them. As for what you want to call paranoia. I know which of my posts go through and which do not. I've posted several of the same posts at different times/days/nights, different articles and they went through without changing the wording that was originally rejected. What? The computer accepts and rejects posting at will? Tell it to someone who doesn't know about programming.

      As for assuming that is why I was replaced at work. One, I was too busy working. Two, I was never replaced. That's the point. It had nothing to do with me except that I was being used by my boss for riding my job from her supervision. My bosses didn't want to have to prove herself to her superiors since what I did technically was new in the venue.

      Amen.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:46 am |
  19. In Man I Trust

    Sorry, it's not "enough", this book says it was divinely inspired and humans have been killing and hating because of it. If it's fiction (and it is) then let's treat it as such.
    Three steps to sanity;
    1. You were probably born into your religion. If you had been born into any other religion you would believe in that god instead.
    2. Humans are delusional. Every night you dream impossible things. Maybe that holy experience you base your faith on that you have no evidence for was just some sort of day dream.
    3. We have natural explanations for the bible's magic. Science has evidence for evolution and the Big Bang, there is no evidence for what we read in Genesis. This should be a huge hint that the bible is a fantasy story and not something you should base your life on.

    Yes death is frightening, but that doesn't make any of the ridiculous stories in the bible true. We have to braver than that.

    April 4, 2011 at 8:00 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      Let me ask a question. Who says god was not behind the big bang? One cannot be born a Christian and your statement discounts the work of missionaries who risk their lives to provide food, shelter and the gospel to those outside of the US! ! .

      April 4, 2011 at 11:00 pm |
    • NL

      Steve (the real one)-
      "Let me ask a question. Who says god was not behind the big bang?"
      God could have been behind it, but current thinking allows for it to have happened naturally, without his help. Besides, as much as religious folk avoid the issue, claiming that God triggered it makes the whole thing vastly more complicated because you would then have to answer where God came from, how he did it, etc...

      April 4, 2011 at 11:15 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Steve (the real one) wrote: Who says god was not behind the big bang? One cannot be born a Christian and your statement discounts the work of missionaries who risk their lives to provide food, shelter and the gospel to those outside of the US! ! .

      It's possible that some supernatural being, possibly in another dimension, was responsible for the so-called "big bang"... It's also possible that this supernatural being doesn't exist...

      As for these missionaries... Could they not be highly misguided and exploited? Not that it's an exact parallel, but the same might be said of the suicide bombers being sent out by the various sects and organizations in the Middle East.

      April 4, 2011 at 11:19 pm |
    • Not Quiet

      Not to be pedantic, but how can anyone trust man? We have not evolved to be trustworthy, but are pretty messed up semi-intelligent beings instead. Even those who do their best are only human with all the shortcomings that implies.
      We aren't done evolving yet. We're only half-assed animals with a predilection for bad social skills.
      What makes you trust humans? And is your trust as limited as is prudent? Only you can say for yourself.
      I do not think delusional behavior can be used as a basis for facts, nor does religious indoctrination work as a framework for rational behavior. There are other skill sets to be given that are more helpful than ones based on delusional thinking.
      Yet who can you trust to do things right? Not humans. Not the way things have gone throughout human history.
      I am not suggesting computer control or anything that far out. Just that we need to take stock of what we actually have to work with and how to compensate for human variability in a way that helps everyone to live as nice a life as possible.

      April 5, 2011 at 2:44 am |
    • ALGEBRA

      FAITH + TRUTH = CERTAINTY

      FAITH – TRUTH = DELUSION

      Therefore FAITH CANNOT EQUAL CERTAINTY OR DELUSION unless TRUTH = ZERO.

      So both extremes are wrong. Now work it out in something resembling sensibility please and quit convincing yourself that the other side is fooling theirself more than you are. By both arguments TRUTH = ZERO. Now abandon extremes.

      April 5, 2011 at 3:22 am |
    • NL

      ALGEBRA-
      Regarding your equation, in what sense are the deluded not certain of what they believe?

      April 5, 2011 at 11:16 am |
    • In Man I Trust

      Missionaries may help others, but that doesn't prove the existence of any god. Unfortunately that good work is poisoned by the fact that they are spreading their "thought virus" to those most vulnerable, in hopes that they too may one day spread the "virus".

      April 5, 2011 at 4:17 pm |
    • Perception is not Reality unless you are God

      NL: I think your talking perception while ALGEBRA is talking reality...and no, perception is not reallity, unless you are God. That tired old worn out phrase is just something salemen and people who think they are the center of the universe believe – another delussion. funny, Salesmen and the center of the universe – one in the same they think 🙂

      FAITH + DELUSION = PERCEIVED MISLEADING CERTAINTY = DECEPTION

      I think we all know that's pretty clear.

      April 5, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • NL

      Perception is not Reality unless you are God-
      You're right in that reality is what actually happens and perception is how any one of us sees reality. Only an omniscient being would be able to have all possible perceptions but, seeing that we aren't omniscient beings, all we have is our own perceptions of reality thus making reality itself inconsequential.

      Theory of Mind development in children ought to make it possible for most people to appreciate that not everyone perceives reality the same way, but in this seems questionable in the greater debate here. Many atheists cannot seem to accept that Christians 'see' the Holy Spirit in reality, and many Christians cannot seem to accept that atheists do not.

      April 5, 2011 at 11:36 pm |
    • NL

      In Man I Trust-
      But to what degree is any charitable work altruistic? How can anyone help others in a completely disinterested and selfless way unless you view what you are doing for them as something neutral, neither 'helping' nor 'hurting' them. We all get a 'feel good' sensation by helping others, but I guess you can make a case that missionaries get the added buzz of raking in points for the afterlife and bringing more people to God which, in their eyes, counts as doing a second good deed because they see value in converting people to their faith. Of course, if the charity is mainly bate to get a captive audience for proselytizing purposes then you can't really call that chiefly a 'charitable' activity, but more of a recruiting drive, and the tax benefits ought to be revoked for the organization.

      April 5, 2011 at 11:56 pm |
    • Wonder Why?

      Actually is the difference is in the definition of the Holy Spirit.

      True Christains, or true religious people, believe in the Apple; while atheists spend their time arguing against the orange.

      Its not all the atheist's fault though.

      Originally the Apple Polishers used the orange to introduce the Apple concept. Unfortunately, they found it much easier to bring in controlable less smart converts and keep the coffers filled with the orange believers, since the orange was so simple to understand and fear. So the Apple Polishers lost sight of the Apple, favoring of profits over prophets.

      So its all Apple and oranges. Both sides can argue over the orange, but its really the Apple that matters.

      April 6, 2011 at 12:10 am |
    • Syriac

      "Science has evidence for the big bang".
      Really? Because i think that it makes SO MUCH sense that there was NOTHING and then: BANG! a big explosion out of NOTHING causes the universe to begin with a comete crashing into earth and then causing plenty of debris to fly into space to form the moon (with plenty of other dumb theories like that), and then, what do you know? Life starts to form. All that out of NOTHING. How exciting! I feel like I am talking about the BIIGEST FAIRY TALE INVENTED BY MAN THAT CLAIMS TO BE TRUTH.

      April 6, 2011 at 7:28 pm |
    • ROOTS and TREE TOPS

      There's just as much faith and conjecture going on at the limits of science as there are at the limits of understanding God. What happened before the big bang? What created God before IT created in Genesis? If you answer those questions what happened before then. Science says nothing is created. Its just all matter recombined. Creation and destruction go on eternally ever millisecond of the day. God and the devil are in those details. World without End. Scientific Pantheism. God is one. There is no God but God. There is nothing but God. With in without. Infinitely small. Infinitely large. Amun.

      April 7, 2011 at 12:39 am |
    • Dan

      Every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that he is God. Man born of woman is condemned to die but the soul will either return to God that gave it or be cast into Hell to burn for eternity. To put your faith in science and the scientific explanation for all of God's creation is only denying the truth. The sin of unbelief is what casts a soul into Hell, not the sins of the flesh. Find a place you can hear the truth and be saved before it is too late. God promised us at least one opportunity to repent, some have more than one opportunity but some only one...

      April 7, 2011 at 2:11 am |
    • Dorianmode

      Am not a person of faith, but it's important not to ascribe to this book things which it does NOT say. There is nowhere in the entire canon of either the NT or OT where it claims somewhere that it was "divinely inspired". When Paul was writing his letters to the christian congregations in the late Bronze Age Near East he never ever imagined someone would put them in a book some day and call them "bible"., or that trhey were "inspired". He simply never made that claim.

      April 7, 2011 at 2:40 am |
    • NL

      Syriac-
      Science does have evidence for the big bang, plenty of it. What evidence do you have that some being existed before the universe and was powerful enough to create it?

      Do some research. Here, let me help you, try this site:

      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

      Then read some other creation stories:

      http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html

      Face it, your story sounds like all of the other supernatural creation stories put forward by the world's mythologies.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:34 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Christians know there is the difference between our brother Judah and the Kenites.

      As for Wonder Why, go to another blog with your apple baloney. I can tell you don't know how to cross reference the Bible to find truth. All you newbie atheists need to come up to speed.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • Here and Now and Everywhere

      NL. Wiki The Big Bang and focus on all the therioies of scientists about what occurred before the big bang. You will see things that sound just as rediculous and based on flights of fancy.....so far out there it really means nothing to the here and now, and how people should treat each other, much less anything we're likely to every use. Sometimes it seems no different fron the alchemy they descended from only more developed in complexity. here's proposals noting possibilities before the Big Bang (note the laste sentence:
      ---
      While the Big Bang model is well established in cosmology, it is likely to be refined in the future.

      Little is known about the earliest moments of the Universe's history. <===== * * * * what was that?

      The Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems require the existence of a singularity at the beginning of cosmic time. However, these theorems assume that general relativity is correct, but general relativity must break down before the Universe reaches the Planck temperature, and a correct treatment of quantum gravity may avoid the singularity.[65]

      Some proposals, each of which entails untested hypotheses, are:

      models including the Hartle–Hawking no-boundary condition in which the whole of space-time is finite; the Big Bang does represent the limit of time, but without the need for a singularity.[66] brane cosmology models[67] in which inflation is due to the movement of branes in string theory; the pre-big bang model; the ekpyrotic model, in which the Big Bang is the result of a collision between branes; and the cyclic model, a variant of the ekpyrotic model in which collisions occur periodically. In the latter model, the Big Bang was preceded by a Big Crunch and the Universe endlessly cycles from one process to the other.[68][69][70] chaotic inflation, in which universal inflation ends locally here and there in a random fashion, each end-point leading to a bubble universe expanding from its own big bang.[71][72][73]

      Proposals in the last two categories see the Big Bang as an event in a much larger and older Universe, or multiverse, and not the literal beginning. <====== * * * Infinitely large, inifinitely small; within without etc.
      ----
      I'm not sure whether I lean to the (hare)brane model, the ekp erotic model or the Big captain crunch model. They're all equally compelling. The choice should be obvious.
      ----
      here's some more evidence of scientific faith and possible delusion:
      ----
      Precise modern models of the Big Bang appeal to various exotic physical phenomena that have not been observed in terrestrial laboratory experiments or incorporated into the Standard Model of particle physics.

      Of these features, dark matter is currently the subject to the most active laboratory investigations.[54]

      Remaining issues, such as the cuspy halo problem and the dwarf galaxy problem of cold dark matter, are not fatal to the dark matter explanation as solutions to such problems exist which involve only further refinements of the theory.

      Dark energy is also an area of intense interest for scientists, but it is not clear whether direct detection of dark energy will be possible.[55]

      On the other hand, inflation and baryogenesis remain somewhat more speculative features of current Big Bang models: they explain important features of the early universe, but could be replaced by alternative ideas without affecting the rest of the theory.[notes 6]

      Discovering the correct explanations for such phenomena are some of the remaining unsolved problems in physics.
      ----
      Wow! Tthat make it all perfectly clear and settled. Can we please stop arguing the certain faith of Big Bang infallibility now?

      It also says:
      -–
      Observations of distant galaxies and quasars show that these objects are redshifted—the light emitted from them has been shifted to longer wavelengths. This can be seen by taking a frequency spectrum of an object and matching the spectroscopic pattern of emission lines or absorption lines corresponding to atoms of the chemical elements interacting with the light. These redshifts are uniformly isotropic, distributed evenly among the observed objects in all directions.

      If the redshift is interpreted as a Doppler shift, the recessional velocity of the object can be calculated. <====????
      ---–
      If the red shift is interpretted????? What if the reedshift isn't the result of everything moving away from us as if we are the center of the Universe again (thought that was already disproven), but rather just the result of the things being measured that are enormously far from us. Wouldn't great distance widen or lengthen the waves too, like ripples on a pond get wider and flatter the more distant from the center. Has it been proven that the ripple on the pond effect isn't the cause of the "red" shift?

      Oh and it must be good to get tax payer money for such certainty and impact on everyday life. Sound familiar?

      April 7, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
    • Wonder Why?

      Heaven Sent; Sorry to dissapoint but I am not an atheist. I have a firm believe in the Apple. As usual your kind don't know a parable, allegory or myth, even if they're in the Bible, from the fundementalist literal word of the Bible. Yet you continue to rant like you're God's own chosen mouth piece. Jesus taught in parable. Many times. The stories he told didn't really happen, but they did really have truth in them. If you want to understand the LOGOS (Logic not word) of God properly, study the history, science and other things both in and out of the Bible, all of which God made and controls. Then you will eventually see the truth..... or live in darkness instead of the light of Gods real love. Its you choice.

      April 7, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Here and Now and Everywhere,

      you need to know how to cross reference the Bible to learn about the first age and it’s destruction, then how Genesis – Revelation explains this second earth age. The destruction of the first Earth Age are in the following scriptures:

      2 Peter 3:5-6
      Jeremiah 4:23-27
      Job 40:15-19
      Matthew 13:28
      2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
      Revelation 2:9; 12:4; 3:15-17
      Daniel 11:21
      Leviticus 18:22
      Romans 11:4
      2 Peter 3:6
      Ezekiel 28:18-19
      Revelation 20:10

      Genesis 1:1-3 First earth age formed and end the end of the first earth age.
      Notice ... And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Second Earth Age begun)

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • Here and Now and Everywhere

      Heaven Sent: Please post the verse contents. I tried following your string of verses but saw little relevance among some of them and they weren't a parable:

      Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

      April 7, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Here and Now, I did post scriptures from the foundation of the world. The first earth age was destroyed (1st flood that destroyed that eon, Noah's flood was not global but regional, the first flood was global) by God because Lucifer, who was one of the highest angels (cherubim, guarding God's mercy seat) thought himself bigger and better than God (sin of Pride), lead 1/3 of the Angels to rebel against God. Genesis through Revelation explain the 2nd earth age (eons). Eons of time. That's what you need to understand with cross referencing the Bible and to check with what words are referred to in the Bible cross referencing with the Greeks, Hebrew, etc. definitions.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonder why, Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. It depends on what seed you are. Some seeds fall on rocks, to get scorched, therefore, can not hear his truth (no eyes to see, nor ears to hear).

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • NL

      Here and Now and Everywhere-
      What the scientific community does is work on finding what the correct answer is. It's an ongoing process of discovery and, sure, some things will likely be overturned in time just as Ben Franklin's opinion that nothing could possibly fall from the sky (meteors) was eventually overturned. Who knows? One day the process may lead right to an ancient creation story being more, or less correct, but until that time I'll keep with what works and science has an extremely better track record in this than myth.

      I'm sorry that the incompleteness of the scientific explanation bothers you so, but if everything were already known, as religions like to claim, then there wouldn't be any need for scientists at all, right? Being bothered by the fact that there are questions yet to be answered is like being bothered that Hollywood hasn't run out of ideas for movies yet, or that there are still new songs being written. Science, like the arts, hasn't explored everything yet, and that's why it's so exciting. Even your religion hasn't stopped evolving into new denominations, and hasn't adopted to every imaginable social situation yet. There will always be more to discover, more ways to express ideas, and even more ways to reinvent Christianity. That's what makes us human.

      April 7, 2011 at 7:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL,

      Practicing Christians do not knock science. We know that true science and the Bible match perfectly. Many mysteries are still being uncovered in the Bible. God unveils what He wants to which ever generation He wants that seek His truth. As of 1948, we are in end of days. More and more of prophecies are being revealed for those that have eyes to see, ears to hear.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 9:03 pm |
    • Here and Now and Everywhere

      NL: Your last two sentences are correct, so I think you need to rethink the one before that about "my" religion. My point was much of what is said about religion is just as true about science regarding not knowing everything yet. They all need and do work towards better understanding. Those that are honest. Thall shalt not lie.

      Heaven Sent: Who was looking for signs again? You said that the Jews did that as if it was wrong and then refer to signs to justify your belief?....and talk about confusion?

      Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

      Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

      Mark 13 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

      5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:

      6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.

      7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.

      8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows. <== these sorrow have taken place since Adam
      -–
      21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:

      22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. <== the elect are religious leaders.
      -–
      24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

      25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

      26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

      27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

      28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

      29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.

      30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. <===Did it already happen? That generation passed 1900 years ago?
      ---
      32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

      33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
      ----
      Greeks:

      1 Thessalonians 5 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

      2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

      3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

      4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

      8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

      14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].

      15 See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men].

      18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

      21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

      22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

      The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen. <[The first [epistle] to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.]
      ---–
      The way the New Testament was first written in Greek and Aramaic, not King James English, because those were the main languages spoken in Palestines and the Eastern Mediteranean at the time the books were written. That's why LOGOS was mistranslated to word, instead of Logic. It's been said the King James Bible was translated from a poor Greek copy as well.

      April 7, 2011 at 11:31 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-
      If we all just as.sumed that the Bible has all the answers what would be the point of conducting science?

      April 8, 2011 at 12:08 am |
    • So Many Paths; So Many People; One God Many Names

      NL: Heaven sent will turn light switches on and off, watch TV, listen to radio, cook on an electric stove, heat with gas, turn the key in the car etc etc. and never have a clue what you are talking about. Its all God doing that for them, which it is, but its also God doing it for them through those evil contradictory truth finding scientists who work to learn those truths of God that don't exist because they aren't diagrammed literally in their book..

      April 8, 2011 at 1:37 am |
    • NL

      So Many Paths; So Many People; One God Many Names-
      I've toyed with the idea of calling creationists out on the hypocrisy of denouncing evolution while confidently enjoying the benefits of the drugs and other advances which are only made possible by scientists applying evolution in the lab, but I'm not sure that I could live with the consequences. Some may actually boycott vaccines, antibiotics and other products, endangering lives, because their reading of the Bible tells them that evolution is false, so these things could not possibly work if based on a false idea. If our recent experience with the vaccine/autism scare tells us anything it's that, once people have committed to becoming 'true believers' in something, no amount of evidence will shake them from that belief even when lives are endangered.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:18 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Here and Now, I post 1 Corinthians 1:22 when a non- believer keeps going off on their circular arguments to never come to understanding. I do that because of how many years ago that truth was written about other non-believers of the day. I've been on this blog for months now, maybe for the last 30-40 articles. It's the same ole same ole excuses not to read the Bible, but insult when they don't really know about Jesus.

      Amen.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:21 am |
    • HeavenSent

      SMPath, sarcasm doesn't become you. Besides the put down, is it because we are against abortion? What if your parents believed in abortion when they were pregnant with you? You wouldn't be on this blog posting.

      Amen.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:26 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I'm a large gay woman and proud of it.

      So there.

      Amen

      April 8, 2011 at 10:30 am |
    • So Many Paths; So Many People; One God Many Names

      Heaven Sent: That's not very funny at all. I knew a woman who had a pregnancy that either would have killed her and possibly the child, and the child if it had live would have been grotesquely deformed. Just how Christain are you now?

      Those are really situations that neither you, the church or the government need to be involved in. You should just be thankful God never put such moral challenges in your path and gracefully mind your own business; unless a friend or relative asks your guidance on such..

      April 8, 2011 at 10:27 pm |
  20. Reality

    Again, the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis are way ahead of David Hazony. No mention of this in Dave's comments. One wonders why that is? And he does not mention The Code of Hammurabi or the Egyptian Book of the Dead both of which predate the Torah as "Ancient Moral Codes".

    An excerpt from the New Torah for Modern Minds:

    The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel – not one shard of pottery..................................................................................

    April 4, 2011 at 5:48 pm |
    • Muneef

      Reality.

      Hi, hope all well...back here where I am a lot of bloodshed,a lot of shootings,fires on the streets....God only knows what is in stored for us here...just hope and pray it wouldn't be any closer to the faith of Libya...
      Do not know how to ask you to pray for us back here since you gave up that belief...!! So how are you going to say it if you want to wish me /us good?

      April 4, 2011 at 7:37 pm |
    • beyond human ego

      I still say silent prayers everytime I see the news and in between when I think of what is happening. I will be hoping all is safe for you and your family, freinds and everyone in general. May Allah watch over you. Stay as safe as you can.

      April 5, 2011 at 3:08 am |
    • Muneef

      beyond human ego
      Thank you and thanks to God that some people still would want and able to wish the best for others in the name of God and for the love of God...may God repay you ten times the peace you gave with few words of kindness....may God watch over you.

      April 5, 2011 at 10:08 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Acts 20:28-30

      28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
      29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
      30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

      For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

      1 Corinthians 1:22

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Persecution Complex

      Heaven Sent:

      Ecclesiastes 9:16 Then said I, WISDOM [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's WISDOM [is] despised, and his words are not heard.

      Ecclesiasticus 19:20 The fear of the Lord is all WISDOM; and in all WISDOM is the performance of the law, and the knowledge of his omnipotency.

      Proverbs 4:7 WISDOM [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get WISDOM: and with all thy getting get understanding.

      Ecclesiastes 7:12 For WISDOM [is] a defence, [and] money [is] a defence: but the excellency of knowledge [is, that] WISDOM giveth life to them that have it.

      Proverbs 8:1 Doth not WISDOM cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

      Proverbs 21:30 [There is] no WISDOM nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.

      Ecclesiastes 7:11 WISDOM [is] good with an inheritance: and [by it there is] profit to them that see the sun.

      Acts 6:10 And they were not able to resist the WISDOM and the spirit by which he spake.

      Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all WISDOM and prudence;

      Colossians 4:5 Walk in WISDOM toward them that are without, redeeming the time.

      Psalms 136:5 To him that by WISDOM made the heavens: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

      Proverbs 3:13 Happy [is] the man [that] findeth WISDOM, and the man [that] getteth understanding.

      Proverbs 8:11 For WISDOM [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

      Proverbs 10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of WISDOM.

      Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [is] WISDOM.

      Proverbs 16:16 How much better [is it] to get WISDOM than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

      Proverbs 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh [and] intermeddleth with all wisdom. 2 A fool hath no delight in understanding

      Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell [it] not; [also] WISDOM, and instruction, and understanding.

      Proverbs 24:3 Through WISDOM is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:

      Proverbs 31:26 She openeth her mouth with WISDOM; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness.

      Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in WISDOM and stature, and in favour with God and man.

      James 1:5 If any of you lack WISDOM, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
      ============================================================
      The following has gone on for 1900 or more years since. That's why there are so many churches and understandings. Beware the wolves ins sheeps clothing for they can be found leading churches and can be more dangerous than the actual wolves.

      Acts 20:28-30

      28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
      29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
      30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
      ============
      As for the Jews looking for signs, amkes ure you keep lloking for the end of time tomorrow for the signs are everywhere that the lord is coming any day now. That's been said ever since the ascension. So who was looking for signs again?

      April 7, 2011 at 5:28 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-

      "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" ... but a true Christian will believe solely on faith?
      I already know your feelings about Jesus, but would you trust another claim of something that not only cannot be demonstrated, but that also defies standard knowledge and logic? Probably not because, in the real world, that a recipe for opening yourself up to being conned, right? Well, for the Greeks and Jews at that time, and for many others throughout the ages, the claims put forward of Jesus really did sound preposterous, just as they do today.

      April 7, 2011 at 6:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, then follow the lies of the Talmud and see where your soul goes after you leave this earth. Humble yourself and repent to Jesus and ask Him for forgiveness. Then and only then will he unveil His truth to you. Keep your ego in tack and you will always butt head with His truth.

      Your choice. Free will.

      Choice wisely, your soul depends on it.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 7:29 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Piggles 1:4

      I'm a gay woman and proud of it.

      Amen

      April 7, 2011 at 10:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      To the phony heavensent. Still a punk I see. If you want to come out, use your own handle that of being FoolAmI.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 10:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      19 Until the time that his word came to pass, The word of the Lord tested him. Psalm 105:19

      God's Word is our test ... whether we love and follow Jesus, or not.

      Amen.

      April 7, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    • NL

      HeavenSent-

      Tell me, how is the Talmud any different from the collected works of Billy Graham, Augustine, Lee Strobel or any Christian bookstore favorite author who made their mark by giving their personal opinion of how Christian scripture ought to be applied to modern life?

      Another question, do you ever ask Jesus to forgive you in case you happen to be the one who is wrong? Can't hurt, you know, just in case he actually is more compa.ssionate than judgmental, or is your ego too big for this?

      April 7, 2011 at 11:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NL, first, and I've written this many times on previous article posts. I have to muster up my ego to blog on this site. I only come on here to defend Jesus Christ. Other than that, I'm perfectly satisfied with my life and not have to discuss anything with anyone. Since, I am a practicing Christian, I speak up for His truth.

      Second, just as I can't tell you the entire Bible in one post, is the same with the Talmud. The Talmud is opposite of Jesus truth. Only Jesus can save your soul. Follow the Talmud and it's satan behind what is written. Enough said on this if you don't realize that those folks that follow the Talmud are going to the eternal flames if they don't repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness and sin no more.

      Third, what do you mean if I'm wrong? Wrong about Jesus being our Lord and Savior, or wrong about what exactly?

      Amen.

      April 8, 2011 at 10:09 am |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.