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April 20th, 2011
01:00 AM ET
My Take: Learn about the Bible, even if you don't believe it
By Kristin Swenson, Special to CNN "True Grit's" stern little girl Mattie - shoot, the Coen Brothers’ entire movie - dramatizes a single line of biblical text. And the way the film interprets that particular text makes that biblical verse directly related to the governor of Illinois' recent decision to ban the death penalty, a decision which was reportedly informed by the Bible. The movie’s and the Illinois governor’s conclusions - about capital punishment in this case - are exactly opposite. While Mattie's justice requires death for the man who killed her dad, the governor's has no place for such execution. Yet both have biblical precedent. So knowing about the Bible not only makes the movies more fun and enables critique of public policy, but it also paradoxically encourages you to think for yourself. The Bible's long history of development, reflecting many voices, and the fact that it’s usually read in translation invite our engagement with it not merely as passive recipients of a fixed meaning but as unique individuals bringing different points of view to bear. The trick, of course, is knowing something about the Bible, even if you don’t believe in it. And the more you know, the more intriguing it gets. If you're not biblically literate, you can get along all right, but you're missing out. It's like a cocktail party with raucous conversation. You're invited, but until you know something about the Bible, you'll be stuck talking about the weather at the punch bowl. Yes, "True Grit" is entertaining no matter what, and you can take Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn at his word that his death penalty decision has biblical basis, but each invites a deeper understanding. And together, they reflect the Bible's ambivalence - in this case about crime and punishment. "The wicked flee when none pursueth," a line from Proverbs 28:1, hangs auspiciously on the screen at the beginning of "True Grit." Knowing that Hebrew (the original language of Proverbs) creates its poetry out a system of parallel lines, might lead you to check out the line after the one quoted in True Grit: "but the righteous are as bold as a lion." Linking the criminals' running to the boldness of a lion, the biblical verse suggests a world in which courageous good guys chase down the yellow-bellied bad with the same determination, cunning and strength as the king of beasts. That's our Mattie, at 14 years old a cub, but single-minded in her quest to bring to justice the man who killed her father. Mattie is "the righteous," of course, and the justice she seeks is death. Because the Bible is sacred scripture, authoritative and instructive for millions of people, many people believe, like Mattie, that certain criminals should be put to death because of what it says. After all, the Torah, or "law," prescribes execution in several specific cases, including murder. Yet Illinois Gov. Quinn is said to have consulted the Bible while wrestling with his decision to abolish the death penalty. What gives? People looking to the Bible for a single, clear, yes-or-no answer about the death penalty will be disappointed, just as they are when seeking a simple, one-size-fits-all answer to abortion or environmental ethics. For one thing, another translation of torah is "instruction." So maybe those "laws" shouldn't be taken so literally. Indeed, while the Bible allows for all sorts of killing and would seem to demand criminal execution in certain cases, it also commands "thou shalt not kill/murder," identifies God as the only ultimate judge, and praises forgiveness and mercy. I don't know Quinn, but I suspect he knows enough about the Bible to know that he also had to think for himself. He wisely considered that our human systems, justice included, are imperfect - and that the wrong person might be pegged for a capital crime. Knowing about the Bible, no matter what you believe, enables you see not only why Quinn would settle on the ban but also why it was such a difficult decision: sometimes the Bible says different things. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it," is available for bumper stickers, t-shirts, mugs, and posters. Yet the Bible's multiplicity of voices and complex history invite you to learn more and in the process to add your own voice, thoughts, and deliberations to the conversation. First, though, you’ve got to learn about it. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Kristin Swenson. soundoff (1,814 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Next »
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Editor's Note: 
Casper Parks points out in his book Perceptional Threshold, that Old Testament was Alien Contamination and New Testament was Alien Intervention... Christ's death and resurrection brought an end to animal sacrifice to appease God. Parks' book is sf thriller, laying it between the lines.
Swenson said: "Knowing about the Bible, no matter what you believe, enables you see not only why Quinn would settle on the ban but also why it was such a difficult decision: sometimes the Bible says different things."
Yep, sometimes the bible says different things...
Notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000). Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
These apparently good people earnestly read and comprehended their bibles. But, their comprehensions were different.
All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.
A good example of this, is the different beliefs of what happens to sinners in the afterlife. Most Christians believe the wicked will be tortured forever in a place created by their all good, all just, all loving god.
Others, like HeavenSent, believe sinners will either be destroyed or simply will be denied eternal life.
A minority of people believe that all people, even the wicked, will eventually be reconciled to god (Every one goes to heaven).
If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His will would be the same?
ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression
1. If the Christian god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.
People attempt to discover and comprehend god's wants, by reading the bible.
2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.
3. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.
Cheers!
@David Johnson
As per usual, well put!
Personally, I love all the different Christian ideas of what'll happen post mortem.
7th Day Adventists believe nobody is really dead, just unconscious.
Mormons think they'll inherit a whole planet to rule.
Catholics think some folk get to spend a while in the Aetheric waiting room known as purgatory (limbo is gone from catholic dogma now).
Baptists are convinced everybody goes to hell except for them.
And all the various rituals that must be observed to get to heaven!
Cannibalism, drowning and genital mutilation, oh my!
@Doc Vestibule
You and NL and Eric G amaze me with your knowledge. I read, but never seem to retain the facts you guys do. Your post added greatly to my argument. I thank you.
Cheers!
Jude 1 comes to mind.
Amen.
HeavenSent-
Yes, verse 18 especially
"They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”
Was there ever a time when there weren't 'scoffers' aplenty? Them last times sure do drag out, don't they?
I agree. I recently started reading the bible just so I could know what it said for myself instead of relying on what others say is in there. I'm not overly religious but I do believe in a higher power. The bible itself though, I'm not about to take literally, word for word. That would be almost impossible. Though I'm only in Leviticus (which aint far, for those who don't know) I've read countless contradictions and have figured you can probably find a verse to (look like it will) back up any argument you have. Just because you don't believe it's every word as "gospel" it's a pretty interesting read.
Laura, If I may suggest. Start with the NT book of John. The reason I say that is John reveals jesus in amanner that know other book does. I would also suggest ask God for understanding! Just a friendly suggestion! Of course th choice is yours. A lot of what's in the OT actually points to the coming of Christ. An example of that would be the story of the passover in Exodus.
@Laura
Steve, like a child, wants to believe in a Santa Claus. Don't take what he tells you as truth. You will be greatly disappointed come Christmas morning. LOL!
Comment about John:
The tradition attributing the fourth Gospel to the Apostle John, the son of Zebedee, is first noted by Irenaeus in A.D. 180. It is a tradition based largely on what some view as the writer's reference to himself as "the beloved disciple" and "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Current objection to John's authorship are based largely on modern textural analyses that strongly suggest the fourth Gospel was the work of several hands, probably followers of an elderly teacher in Asia Minor named John who claimed as a young man to have been a disciple of Jesus.
-Jeffery L. Sheler, "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)
John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the unknown author(s) of this gospel wrote it in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong] Source: Did a historical Jesus exist? by Jim Walker originated: 12 June 1997 / additions: 30 Jan. 2011
John was the last gospel written, after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms].
The Jesus myth had plenty of time to flourish by this time. John just reflects this mythology.
Cheers!
David Johnson
@Laura
Steve, like a child, wants to believe in a Santa Claus. Don't take what he tells you as truth. You will be greatly disappointed come Christmas morning. LOL!
----–
The old don't believe Steve but believe me instead mind meld. Laura can make up her own mind. I was just giving a suggestion. Why are you so certain you are correct?
David has no eyes to see, nor ears to hear any of Jesus' truth.
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Amen.
@Steve ( who cares?)
You said: "The old don't believe Steve but believe me instead mind meld. Laura can make up her own mind. I was just giving a suggestion. Why are you so certain you are correct?"
Because, I read and apply critical thinking.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. – 1 Corinthians 13:11
My daughter, like most kids, believed in Santa when she was six. I found it so cool, when she started to question this belief. She would ask how it was possible that Santa could get into our house. We didn't have a chimney. My answer, that Santa was magic left her more puzzled. My answer didn't fit in the world she knew to be true. After many questions and thought, she asked me again, "Is Santa real?" I finally told her the truth. She actually was happier knowing the truth.
I would buy a helmet for any kid of mine, that didn't question Santa by the time they were seven. Adults should be like the kids. They should question! And think! Jesus is just a Santa for adults.
Cheers!
Steve (the real one)-
"A lot of what's in the OT actually points to the coming of Christ."
If you use a whole lot of imagination, maybe, but the most likely scenario is that the gospels and such were written with OT imagery in mind. It would have been ridiculously easy to have done so.
I am reading the bible now, and have already come accross multiple errors, inconsistancies, and contradictions. It just shows that the bible was written by bronze age men who were uneducated and did not understand the world around them. The bible could not be an all-knowing word of a supposed "god." It simply lacks absolute truth.
That being said, the author of the article brings up a good point: the bible is one of the most alluded to works in all of history. Its' signifigance in understanding literature is well worth knowing and understanding. Besides, the more people that actually read it can see for themselves that it is completey ridiculous set of myths.
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Amen.
Can someone please post the real writings of a god, from the hand of that god? Of course not. lol
I will gladly post everything ever written by the hand of God, as well as everyhting God ever said or thought.
Here it is:
Dexter Skagway
I will gladly post everything ever written by the hand of God, as well as everyhting God ever said or thought.
Here it is:
-----–
Let me guess invisable font or some of the smallest font I have NEVER seen!
@Steve: That was funny.
But, the invisible and the non-existent look very similar!
Eric G
@Steve: That was funny.
But, the invisible and the non-existent look very similar
---–
I appreciate that Eric G. As for the the second part. Ever see the wind? It is invisable yet it exists. What we see and feel are the effects of it! grass bends, leaves flutter! Kinda like God! Yes He is invisable to us but we see and feel his effects! Creation is but one example!
The main difference between the wind and God is that wind can be proven to exist.
Dexter Skagway
The main difference between the wind and God is that wind can be proven to exist.
----
So can God , you are just spiritually blind to that fact!
steve (the real one)-
"So can God , you are just spiritually blind to that fact!"
Doesn't 'spiritually blind' just mean that you are receptive to believing in God without needing any evidence for his being real? REAL real, not just a pretty idea that gives you comfort, but actually 'out there' real?
Well, I for one would not have my view of reality terribly disturbed by the discovery of any hard evidence for UFOs, their alien pas.sengers or Big Foot, but I cannot find any part of me any more that can imagine leprechauns or fairies being REAL real. Does that make me leprechaun-ly and fairy-ly blind as well?
Would you argue then that I don't have enough faith to bring Tinker Bell back to life, and would that necessarily make me a bad person because I grew out of a particular sense of wonder I once had as a child where others, apparently, have not?
Read it, great fiction for the most part.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:18
I don't need some wannabe cnn anchor preaching the bible to me, all it is to me is a story (just like any fictional story)......people doing things completely defying physics, hearing voices, seeing a bush always burning......these days hearing voices and seeing things is there's something mentally wrong with u, the bible, church all that nonsense is mindless brainwashing to make u believe there's an invisible man in the sky that always needs money, tells u ur free and boundless and yet forced to stay between the lines.......don't ever put religious garbage on here again people at cnn.....ur supposed to cover important things that matter that affect peoples lives not some crap about what this woman believes we should do, I'm surprised u allowed her to publish her nonsense as if anyone cares what her opinion is.......why do people think they have to force their beliefs on u and change u......
eman, spew your nonsense to Jesus when you are standing on the wrong side of the divide as you cry out to all family members to save you from your own big ego.
Amen.
heathen dictionary; one who isn t a jew muslim or christian
biblical" a worldly pagan yahoo
Might want to be careful with that... the more I read the bible, the less I believed any of it. Now I'm not a Christian at all, and it's mostly because I read the bible.
Brian – your response shows that you haven't read the bible when you comment on "David's evel plan of buying women with foreskins of Philistines". If you read the Bible the foreskins were the required dowery requested by Saul in hopes that the Philistines would kill David. David provided the required dowery to be able to marry a woman who was in love with him.
Shelley – as usual, atheists are better students of the Bible than illiterate believers. If you read Saul 18:27, the hero David killed 200 Philistines and swapped their foreskins for Saul's daughter. Very disgusting. Then, in the very next verse, we have God's ringing endorsement of the transaction, where it says "And Saul saw and knew that the Lord was with David."
Read the Bible. God endorsed David's murder spree and genital mutilation transaction. Sorry if the Bible you want to exist really doesn't.
The fact that this is the biggest issue you have with his post speaks volumes.
I meant Samuel 18:27 (not Saul)
brian
Shelley – as usual, atheists are better students of the Bible than illiterate believers. If you read Saul 18:27, the hero David killed 200 Philistines and swapped their foreskins for Saul's daughter. Very disgusting. Then, in the very next verse, we have God's ringing endorsement of the transaction, where it says "And Saul saw and knew that the Lord was with David."
Read the Bible. God endorsed David's murder spree and genital mutilation transaction. Sorry if the Bible you want to exist really doesn't.
-------–
I once stated atheists post little or nothing of the New Testament! You have proved my point. You do realize the church (Christianity) was established in the New Testament, right?
brian. You are truly a fool.
Amen.
Calling someone an illiterate believer does not make it so. All reading of the Bible must be taken in the full context of the story and the history of the time. Yes, David's army killed 200 Phililstines when only 100 were required by the King (Saul) who ordered him to battle. But I don't know of many soldiers in battle will stop at a given number IF the fighting continues. But that really digresses from the true reason for the story. David's success in battle was seen by Saul as having the Lord's blessing, it never says that the Lord gave it his blessing. Only that Saul perceived it as so. That is what shapes the relationship between Saul and David, nothing more, not the relationship between David and God.
HeavenSent-
"brian. You are truly a fool."
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22
Perhaps you should start calling yourself 'HellSent"? 😉
I am torn by this article. If one reads the Bible without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, there will be no spiritual understanding. Reading the Bible is a good thing but again no understanding comes if the Holy Spirit is not involved.
I think what you are saying is: If you don't already believe (in the Holy Spirit, Christianity, God) , then reading The Bible won't help (or cause) you to believe. In short, if someone doesn't already believe then The Bible is just an old text. Do I have that about right?
JohnQuest
I think what you are saying is: If you don't already believe (in the Holy Spirit, Christianity, God) , then reading The Bible won't help (or cause) you to believe. In short, if someone doesn't already believe then The Bible is just an old text. Do I have that about right?
---------
Close. Let me help you a bit. To a person who don't not believe the bible (To them) is but a regualr book. The reality is the bible is the living word of God, regardless if one fails to belive it! That is the difference! God authored it and to understand it requires the aid of the One who authored it!
Thanks for the clarification. Since I don't believe I'm certain I never will believe. However, I do wish the best for all that do believe.
Or possibly just an open mind.
You need an empty mind to believe the Bible, not an open one.
Amen . .
JohnQuest
Thanks for the clarification. Since I don't believe I'm certain I never will believe. However, I do wish the best for all that do believe.
-----
JohnQuest, I appreciate you kind words. I am praying that you get to that place where you believe! If I am not mistaken, don't you have a Christian background or history?
To Laura and Heaven Sent. I would suggest not a open mind nor being mindless. Instead I suggest a renewed mind (only Christ can give that).
@Steve (the whatever)
You said: "The reality is the bible is the living word of God, regardless if one fails to belive it! That is the difference! God authored it and to understand it requires the aid of the One who authored it!"
Ancient men wrote the bible. It expresses their ideas, morality and knowledge of the times.
You have no proof that there is a god, let alone that the bible is His inerrant word. You want your faith and beliefs to be equal to evidence, but that is foolish thinking.
You sound as if you are using the "No True Scotsman" argument. Are you saying that the ~38,000 different denominations of Christianity, do not agree with your interpretation of the bible, because they lack the guidance of he holy spirit?
And what of the different religions?
There are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.).
Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong. Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps He does not exist.
Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone to know He exists and is the one true god?
1 Timothy 2: 3 – 5 says the Christian god does desire this:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1. If the Christian God existed, this fact would be obvious.
So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god. People could decide to accept Him, or reject Him. But, the issue of existence would be resolved.
2. The Christian God's existence is not obvious.
This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists, who don't find any proof that the Christian god's existence is more believable than the Hindu god(s).
3. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
Cheers!
Steve, that was the empty headed, spiritual dead, dry phony heavensent. He always comes on when I post Jesus' truth. He can't stand that believers know this governor to be a fool, just like him.
Amen.
David Johnson,
How are you Mr. Johnson? Cantankerous as ever, I see! Cool! Once again sir, The proof of God's existance is very obvious! Creation. You just rather atrribute it to randomness! Out of nothing came something! God exists, Sir! In fact, you speak more of the God you claim does not exist than some preachers! Why?
You keep asking me for proof He exists. Prove He doesn't exist. Oh wait! its that little can't prove a negative thing, right? So in other works, you have NO proof God does not exist, right? I thought so!
@Steve (the real one)
You said: "You keep asking me for proof He exists. Prove He doesn't exist. Oh wait! its that little can't prove a negative thing, right? So in other works, you have NO proof God does not exist, right? I thought so!"
Actually, since it is the believers that are positing a god, it would be their burden to supply evidence that god does indeed exist.
Extraordinary claims, requires extraordinary evidence – Carl Sagan
You are right. No one can prove a negative. I can't prove that god does not exist. I also can't prove Santa Claus does not exist. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we feel is probable. What fits with the way the world really works. Fairy tales and make-believe worlds are for children. Adults should put away childish things.
I think we can rule out god, in the same way we rule out any other mythological creature. Never actually proving there is no god, but close enough for arguments sake. A preponderance of the evidence if you will. In life, we decide if things exist or not, all the time. You have no problem with saying Santa doesn't exist. Yes? Or all those other gods ? Right? Of course not.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ...Stephen F Roberts
One reason to reject the idea of a god, is because there appears to be no need for one. Each hour of each day, science fills another gap in man's knowledge, that god once filled. The explanation, "God did it", no longer satisfies us.
We don't need to postulate what isn't necessary.
Claiming god was the instigator of the universe, because something cannot come from nothing, only sets up the "infinite regress". If god created the universe, who created god and who created the creator of god etc. ad infinitum. Saying god was self-creating (HeavenSent's idea), nullifies your rule that something cannot come from nothing. It makes it a suggestion or a guideline, rather than a law. It solves or explains...nothing.
Saying god has always existed, is only a claim. I can claim the same for my universe.
Science is looking at theories of how the universe came to be. None posit a god, as a cause.
If the Christian god so loves the world, why does he allow / cause so much suffering? Disease, famine, floods, earthquakes etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ?
I can explain the existence of these horrors as being due to natural causes, but my explanation fails when I include an all good, all loving god in the equation. I keep getting a "Can't divide by zero" error.
1. If the Christian god is all good, He would want to rid the world of suffering / evil.
2. If the Christian god is all powerful, He would be able to rid the world of suffering / evil.
3. Yet, evil persists.
Therefore, It is very unlikely that the Christian god exists.
The Christian god is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. But these attributes are not compatible.
If the Christian god is all knowing, if the future can be known, then even god would be bound by events in the future. Everything would be predetermined.
1. If god, knows what will happen in the future, and does something else...then, He is not all knowing.
2. If god knows the future and cannot change it, then He is not all powerful.
3. The attributes attributed to the Christian god conflict with one another. The Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
Evangelicals believe in a personal god, who helps them get a promotion, or little bobby's team win a trophy. While at the same time 16,000 children die of hunger related causes. Their prayers are ignored.
Does that seem likely to you?
Evolution, with its evidence of transitional fossils, geological column, DNA evidence, vestigial organs etc., is very damning to the biblical Creation Story.
If god created all the organisms on the planet, then He must have created even the germs and sickness that have caused and are causing so much death and suffering for humans and animals.
He would have had to fashion the tick and the flea. The mosquito and the tapeworm. The worm that bores into a child's eye.
How could an all good god do such a thing? Why would He spend His time creating gruesome things to cause human suffering? Yet, these horrors exist.
An all good, all loving, all just god also constructed a place to burn humans for all eternity. What crime(s) could justify such a sentence?
Evolution explains the diversity of the planet's organisms, including the germs and the parasites that have caused so much human misery.
The evolution of hurtful organisms is a better fit, than their being an all good, all loving god's handiwork.
If the Creation Story is a fable, then Adam and Eve did not exist.
If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there was no original sin.
If there was no original sin, then it cannot be the reason there is so much suffering in the world.
If there was no original sin, then there was no need for a redeemer.
If there was no redeemer, then Christianity is based on a false premise.
If the Creation story is a myth, then there is no reason to believe any of the bible. No reason to believe in the Christian god. No reason to believe in a soul, that lives on after our deaths.
LOL, which is why the fundies fight so hard against evolution.
Prayer does not work. Jesus made promises about prayer, that you can test. So test them! Ask for anything – A new car, world peace, that Jesus would appear to you... or, move a mountain.
Jesus promised you could ask for anything and He would give it to you. With only a little faith, He said you could move a mountain.
But, you know that is not true, in spite of what Jesus said. Santa also promises, that special toy will be delivered...If you have been good. LOL.
Scientific studies have shown that prayers are not answered any better than happenstance.
To date there has not been a single good study showing that prayer has any value for helping sick people.
Source: Source: http://www.straightdope.com
Prayer for other people(when they don't know they are being prayed for) does not work.
1. If god exists, prayer should be effective, as promised.
2. Prayer is not effective.
3.Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
The Christian god is no more likely to exist than unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents, talking snakes or Santa.
Cheers!
@ David Johnson,
You said two contradictory statements:
1. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we feel is probable. What fits with the way the world really works....
and then you said
2.Fairy tales and make-believe worlds are for children. Adults should put away childish things.
Has it ever seriously crossed your mind we Christians believe because we have experienced God in our lives? Or is statement #1 off limit to Christians because of our faith and only applicable to you?
"We decide what is real and what is not real... whose the WE david, atheists only? Yet David when I decided what is real (as per YOUR statement) it is lifted up as a fairy tale? Sounds like classic hypocrisy, David. I have decided what is real, but thanks for asking!
@steve (the real one)
You said: "You said two contradictory statements:
1. But in life, we decide what is real and not real, based on what we feel is probable. What fits with the way the world really works....
and then you said
2.Fairy tales and make-believe worlds are for children. Adults should put away childish things."
Contradiction: A combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
There is no contradiction in these statements. Children believe in fairies and Santa and things beneath the bed. Adults know better. Santa and fairies and monsters do not fit in the reality of our everyday world. Even children start to question as they mature. Only deluded idiots disbelieve fairies and monsters, but can accept a zombie carpenter who hasn't been heard from in 2000+ years. That, is the real contradiction. LOL
You asked: "Has it ever seriously crossed your mind we Christians believe because we have experienced God in our lives? Or is statement #1 off limit to Christians because of our faith and only applicable to you?"
Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and natives who worship a rock, all experience their god, in their lives. Christians aren't special. That feeling in your heart is just chemicals in your brain.
You are allowed to believe anything you like. I am allowed to point out how silly it is for you to believe in them. As I said above, you say Santa doesn't exist, but a talking snake is real? LOL That is insanity.
You said: "We decide what is real and what is not real... whose the WE david, atheists only? Yet David when I decided what is real (as per YOUR statement) it is lifted up as a fairy tale? Sounds like classic hypocrisy, David. I have decided what is real, but thanks for asking!"
You decide which god is real and what silliness is real? Based on what? Not on the world you live in. Only on what you wish was real. You live in your own little deluded world. Give me a break.
Cheers!
April 20, 2011 at 4:07 pm | Report abuse |
If by 'heavenly spirit' you mean 'sufficient brainwashing'.
Then, yes.
I think this is a wierd article. Doesn't the author realize that studies show the people who know the most about religion and the bible are athiests?
Time Magazine " Survey: Atheists Know More About Religion Than Believers" .
Soooo what was the point of this article again? Maybe you should say Believers should read the bible. I already did, that's why I know it's full of BS (and I also learned about the authors, and the council of Nicea in 325 AD, etc).
Chris,
I have heard about that study! You may know words on a page but you don't know the spiritual truth to those words! If you did, you could not still be an atheist!
Steve, your position applies to the Quran, too. If, by your own argument, you knew the spiritual truth of those words, you would be a Muslim.
More rational minds know that all religious books are fiction posing as fact.
Dexter Skagway
Steve, your position applies to the Quran, too. If, by your own argument, you knew the spiritual truth of those words, you would be a Muslim. More rational minds know that all religious books are fiction posing as fact.
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Not true! the Koran and the Bible oppose each other. Both cannot be true. Nothing rational about lumping teh bible in with everything else. While you may be correct about religion, in general, you fail to understand Christainity is about RELATIONSHIP and not religion!
@Steve (the real one). Hello again my friend.
Sorry, something you said just made me pause.
Can you expound on "spiritual truth"?
Oh, it said that in a survey in Time Magazine? Must be fact. All atheists know more than all religious people. Fact. Thanks for bringing this to light so that we can all stop living in our miserable world of fiction. Thank God for Time Magazine surveys....
-Eric G
@Steve (the real one). Hello again my friend. Sorry, something you said just made me pause. Can you expound on "spiritual truth"?
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Hello Eric G. I hope you are well! I know you will disagree but I believe the Bible is eternal truth. It is how God reveals His thoughts and will to man (He also revealed himself through his Son, Jesus). I realize eveybody else makes that claim! This most likely will not satisfy you but that is the Christian belief! No need for us to be shy about it! Folks are attempting by natural means to disapprove God. That does not work!
All media venues in end of days follow satan's lies. Time mag is now a rag. Too bad.
Amen.
@Steve (the real one): Thank you for your explaination. I do not disagree that you accept the Bible as truth. I would have to disagree with your as-sesment that people are trying to disprove your God through natural means. I think you are giving scientists too much credit. Science is not trying to disprove your God. Science is gathering evidence to support hypothesis that explain the natural world. The existence of your God would need to be verified before any such attempt could be made.
Pierre Simon Laplace was a Astronomer and mathematician who wrote his 5 volume "Celestial Mechanics" which explained his nebular hypothesis for the origins of the solar system. Laplace showed his theory to the Emperor Napoleon, who asked "Where does God fit into your system?" to which Laplace replied "Sire, I have had no need for this hypothesis."
Jesus never existed. This is all about nothing. See "The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty. There is not one single actual historical reference to Jesus. Why?
chelovek,
You're blatantly wrong. One of the nice things about the Romans is that they kept excellent records. No one (who is actually educated on the topic) actually doubts that a man named Jesus was executed by the Romans, or that His teachings started the Christian sect (referred to as The Way in old texts). They may not believe He actually performed any miracles, or that He was actually the Son of God, or that He rose from the dead, but they don't doubt that He lived and died.
It's great when people read a book written by one person and use that to form their own opinions on a book that contains a compilation of accounts from various perspectives over thousands of years. Then they come online to post about how close minded and incorrect everyone else is. Outstanding detective work...
To quote Family Guy: Peter: "I'll handle this Lois, I read a book on this once."
Brian: "Are you sure it was a book?.. Are you sure it wasn't nothing?"
Of course Jesus doesn't exist for the lazies of this world. Staying lazy only puts you on satan's team all the way to the eternal flames, blotted out. No eternity for any of you if you don't repent to Jesus and then sin no more.
Too much for the lazies of this world to do. Too bad.
Amen.
CSmith is correct.
(Please forgive all the dashes, but something is hanging this up, and am determined to have my say.)
The Roman historian Josephus, (Ti-tus Flavius Jo-sephus), recorded the existence of one of the many itin-era-nt, il-iter-ate a-poc-alyptic preachers, named J-e-sus, thought to be from Na-za-reth, in the Gal-ilee. The question of whether he actually ever intended to start a "cu-lt" is debatable. His followers were Je-wish, and most continued to maintain their Je-wish customs after his execution for civil disobedience during the Pas-sover Festival, in the temple complex, where he threatened the temple based economy of that city. The struggle between his followers, especially the "James" camp in Je-ru-sal-em and and the Pau-line camp, and the Pe-trine/Roman camp for control of the followers is very interesting, but you have to read betwen the lines, in many cases.
@Chris in WI,
Agree. There was an interesting survey last year by the Pew Research folks, (I highly recommend their web site for all sorts of subjects on re-ligion), which showed that 1/2 of Luth-erns don't know who Martin Lut-her was, and a huge percentage of Ca-tho-lics can't say what "transubstantiation" means. Fascinating.
I think this article is fine. I was looking for others, by her to see what else she has written. My sister also teaches at VCU, and believe me, she does not "suffer fools", and that is an understatement, thus by extension, thought this woman might have something to add to the debte. Saying she is "pimping her book" is a bit harsh, in my view. (If by that was meant the Bible.) She seems to be suggesting that besides looking at one line in one text, it might be enlightening to read ABOUT the texts, how they were formed and the many motives behind the many authors and traditions which were much much later a-c-c-umulated into a "canon", which was much later labeled "the Bi-ble". Don't these texts at least offer a fascinatiing glimpse into ancient Late Bronze Age and Iron Age human cultures, national myths, and customs.
the heathen are getting scared more then ever, they don t even smile,you can tap into their body language even the new agers worshiping their false spirit guides, heathen need all kinds of dogma and pills to function.
Out of curiosity, why are the religious posts always the most illiterate and sanity-challenged?
phoenix, please define "heathen", I am not certain of what you mean by it?
JohnQ, look in the mirror for your answer.
Amen.
Heaven sent me...
AIDS, cancer, dysentery, lupus, typhoid, arthritis, cholera, dengue fever, tuberculosis, rotavirus, pneumonia, malaria and countless other horrible ailments.And mosquitoes to help spread many of them.
Amen.
Heaven sent me, too.
Phony heavensent (cough) reality, Tommie, tom, NL and the multiple handles you hide behind. You're all liars and punks.
Amen.
If HeavenSent actually is an example of what heaven sends, then heaven is no place I ever want to be. But of course, it's all just ancient supersti tions obeyed by feeble minds.
HeavenSent, Please consider change the way to respond to people. when Christ who you claim to worship was confronted by none believers he did not berate, insult, or condemn them. He talked to them politely with patience. He listened to them and respond with love. We are called to follow his example. Every time I see you on these blogs all you do is insult, and berated and condemn every one who disagres with you to He-ll. They will know we are christian by our Love not hate. Christ love thy neighbor as you would thy self. Can you really say you are doing this? You don't have the authority to condemn any one to he-ll that is God right please leave it to him. If you have a good conversation with the atiests both of you can learn from each other. It works I've done it. If you attack the they get defensive just like you do. Please stop attacking. Please follow Christ's example. This is good for all of us faithful. In the best I have attack you back. for that I'm sorry. Please lets both of us move forward in Christ's example. No more hateful attacks please.
This site allows you to take other peoples handles. Think about that when you associate a name with what the person is saying.
I know but I've seen HeavenSent on several blogs and one of them is pretty consistently agressive just trying to suggest a better way
Kristen Swenson sure has a narrow mind in that little blonde head of hers. She's a one way street in a one horse town.
She inded does not seem to have much going on upstairs. Kristin Swenson seems to be the uber-daddy's-girl, becoming the ultimate version of daddy's religious tendencies.
The Bible is utter nonsense, plain and simple. I have no idea why it's even relevant, much less admired. All this jerk God does is commit genocide, slaughter women and infants, and demand constant worship (and dead lambs). It's truly a mystery why anybody bothers reading it for any reason other than comic relief. Among my favorite parables of God's twisted lunacy are the Amelakite genocide, when the Lord endorsed David's evil plan of buying women with foreskins of Philistines, and when God sent lions to eat people who weren't scared of him enough.
brian, post the scriptures you are concerned about. How convenient, the rag site you visited didn't do it for you? Where does the heading start? What is Jesus' teaching? What is the outcome? Oh, you don't know? Jesus said that you fools refuse to learn His wisdom.
Amen.
Briaj,
Once again your contention is with the OT. Try the NT and start with John. We live in the age of grace and not the law! Secondly, IF you are remoptely serious about any understanding ask the Holy Spirit for understanding. Otherwise you will never understand it! You will just pull at a hand full of OT scripture and use that as evidence of how the Bible is a book of myths! Context and understanding are key!
While I believe Dr. Swenson has a point in suggesting that we should read the Bible in order to actually know what it says, I also believe she should have gone a step further and suggested that one should also read other religious texts such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, and perhaps some of the Pali Canon – I could keep going in citing other texts. As a former fundamentalist Christian, I was actively discouraged from reading "pagan" or heretical scripture from other religions. However, that's the only way you will ever get a balanced view of religion and sprituality – your own as well as others'.
You should read a well-written discussion on atheism also, to truly balance things out. It will be the only thing on your reading list that isn't fiction. But I do give you credit for trying to broaden your horizons.
Well, since neither the Tao Te Ching nor the Pali Canon endorse "God", I think I have that covered.
No, I meant that you might consider reading something on atheism to understand the whole concept of life without religion and the people who choose that. It would be a counterpoint to the religious texts which would give you the full spectrum.
The Tao Te Ching and Pali Canon both presume a supernatural system, and just cannot be considered to be atheist at all.
Dexter, Rick,
Good points, both of you.
As broad an understanding as possible would be best, religious, spiritual, non-religious, and non-spiritual alike.
"After all, the Torah, or "law," prescribes execution in several specific cases, including murder."
I never could understand the Christian approach to the Old Testament Law. They claim to reject it because Jesus 'replaces' the Law that bound the Jews. That's why they reject the kosher diet, circu.mcision and such, but then they turn around and have little difficulty citing the 10 Commandments, the very cornerstone on OT Law, as also being the foundation of Christian ethics. They cite that Jesus criticized the Pharisees for being hypocritical adherents of the Law, and then they turn around and behave just like the Pharisees in the gospel, pointing their fingers at sinners left and right. It's very inconsistent, to say the least.
I've never heard of this rejection of Old Testament Law that you imply all Christians reject. Quit generalizing.
NL, Maybe this wil help:
From Romans 10:
1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes
Jesus ened the law by fullfilling it. The church (Christians) are not bound by the law but are under grace!
Matthew 22
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Jesus summed up the Ten into Two. Understand the ten only did 2 things:
1. It described how are to treat God
2. It described how we are to treat our fellow man.
As far as your last point, we Christians can and should be be better (myself included). We fail too. That however, does not change the message!
Bill-
The OT lists over 600 laws, laws that some Jews still follow very strictly. Jesus himself was supposed to be a Jew, and so were his followers? He even said that he did not come to replace the Law, so why is it that Christians do not eat kosher, or circu.mcise their boys? Why cite OT Law in the Commandments, but not in how to dress? This is cherry-picking, right?
Isn't it interesting How God give but 10 but by the time Jesus arrived there were well over 600. One such law was you could not move your bed on the sabbath, yet Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and instructed him to do just that! The teachers of the law could not keep them all. When Paul started teaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, the Jews attempted to get the church (which contained both Jew and Gentile) to follow the very same laws, they themselves could not keep!
I will give you an example. The law (one of ten) states not to bear false witness. Interestingly enough that is the VERY thing the teachers of the law did to Jesus at his trial before Pilate!
Bill, Do you eat shrimp, or cheesburgers? Do you wear clothing made of poly/cotton fabric? Do you shave your face? Do you do housework or yardwork on sunday? You do? You have rejected the old testament laws.
Jesus was Judean, not a Jew. Judah is only one of the tribes. The 12 tribes split into 2 kingdoms. It was Pontius Pilate that asked Jesus if He were King of the Jews. Jesus never answered.
Amen.
Steve (the real one)-
"Isn't it interesting How God give but 10 but by the time Jesus arrived there were well over 600."
Are you implying that God did not give any law but the commandments? If you are then whatever biblical injunction against gays is wholly a man-made thing, including Paul's view, right?
"I will give you an example. The law (one of ten) states not to bear false witness. Interestingly enough that is the VERY thing the teachers of the law did to Jesus at his trial before Pilate!"
Where did they lie?
HeavenSent:
“It was Pontius Pilate that asked Jesus if He were King of the Jews. Jesus never answered.”
Sorry to have to bust your bubble:
Luke 23:3 – So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
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Matthew 27: – 11 Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
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Mark 15:2 – "Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate. "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
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Luke 22:70 – They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
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John 18:29 – So Pilate came out to them and asked, "What charges are you bringing against this man?"
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John 18:33 – Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
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John 18:37 – "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
NL
Steve (the real one)-
"Isn't it interesting How God give but 10 but by the time Jesus arrived there were well over 600."
Are you implying that God did not give any law but the commandments? If you are then whatever biblical injunction against gays is wholly a man-made thing, including Paul's view, right?
"I will give you an example. The law (one of ten) states not to bear false witness. Interestingly enough that is the VERY thing the teachers of the law did to Jesus at his trial before Pilate!"
Where did they lie?
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The Major malfunction is not knowing the diiference bewteen law and grace. When Paul wrote Romans, it was under grace. My use of lthe term "law" was strictly referring to the OT not the NT. Yes there are NT prohibitions against same s-e-x intimate relationships.
Secondly understand why the Romans got involved in the cruifixation of Jesus in the first place! Especially since Pilate was going to let Him go. The bearing of false witness. Jesus had made it clear that His kingdom was not physical but spiritual. The Jews relayed that to the Romans but with a twist. Based on the lies of the Jewish leaders, Jesus now became a King in the political sense. As such, He was a threat to Rome and Caeser. That was the lie! As said earlier, even the Jewish leadership who added to the law could not keep the law themselves. Why do you think Jesus challenged them the way He did?
steve (the real one)-
So there are no 'laws' in the NT, only 'prohibitions'? Glad we cleared that up. 😉
Oh, I understand why the Romans got involved in the crucifixion. It's the same reason why they got involved in any crucifixion; to make an example out of a trouble-maker. Jesus came into Jerusalem at the time of Passover and that's when all the rabble-rousers usually stirred up trouble. That's why the Roman troops were brought in from their base on the coast. The city was swelled to two or three times it's usual population, and freedom from oppression is the spirit of the Holy Day. Herod would never have allowed himself be manipulated by the Jewish authorities, and he wouldn't have had any sympathy for a lowly preacher. The gospels reflect the bad relations current at the time of their writing between the Jews and the Gentile Christian communities. Simple as that.
"Knowing about the Bible, no matter what you believe, enables you see not only why Quinn would settle on the ban but also why it was such a difficult decision: sometimes the Bible says different things."
So, reading the Bible can lead you to believe that capital punishment is wrong, ... or not.
In recent posts we are also told that reading the Bible will lend support for freeing slaves, ... or not;
that God allows some people to be tortured in Hell for all eternity, ... or not;
that gays can be accepted as normal, ... or not.
Pick any topic, it seems, and you can find both support and opposition to it in the Bible. You may be better off simply consulting a simple toss of a coin.
Jesus is specific on what he calls an abomination. Man/woman decide whether they will follow His truth or not. Hence, why they misread His truth so they can buckle under for the ways of man.
Life is a test from God. The test is whether you will love and follow His truth or whimp out for instant gratification and love and follow satan's lies. Only Jesus saves. Satan only lies and strokes your ego (sin of pride) so you too, can go to the eternal flames with him.
Amen.
HeavenSent, What are the "truths" if both sides of an issue are listed equally? ie.. thou shall not kill – disobedient children must be killed. If you have conflicting views on the same subject from one source (The Bible) which one is the truth?
Right.
What's really funny about the bible and the people who follow it is that it is proclaimed as being the word of their their god. With so many contradictions between its pages you have wonder why anyone would follow something so fickle.
@HeavenSent –
Just take a freshman level course in Mythology, and you'll understand just where the bible stands.
JohnQ, the reason you don't understand those scriptures is because you don't know that all of us are children of
God's. Children means any age.
Amen.
JJ in CT. Just because they call you sonny, doesn't make you bright.
Amen.
JohnQ, you also don't realize that even though all of us are God's children, he intends for most of his children to burn in hell for eternity.
Sybaris, we've already answered your questions 40 articles ago. The only contradictions in the Bible is for those mindsets of the non-believers butting heads with Jesus' truth. The writing in the scriptures is perfect for eyes that see and ears to hear. It's not perfect for fools like you. You own your mindset. Stop blaming your foolishness on Jesus or any of us that follow His truth.
Amen.
Fickle/contradictory are shortcuts to just condemn the Bible without thinking. I'm all for people studying religious texts of all kinds and coming to their own conclusions, but no serious person will study the Bible and come to the conclusion that it should just be dismissed as fickle/contradictory and therefore not worth studying. Same goes for any of the Eastern sacred texts. As the article points out, and many of you seem to have missed, the Bible has a complex history, complex style of writing that varies from book to book, problems with the various translations (since English doesn't have adequate words to convey what may have been intended), etc. but none of those are reasons to dismiss it unless you just want to be lazy. Again, this applies to all religious texts, none of which should be so casually dismissed since they've all had a tremendous impact on millions/billions of people throughout history.
The phony heavensent is a punk who wrote "JohnQ, you also don't realize that even though all of us are God's children, he intends for most of his children to burn in hell for eternity." He's too much of a coward to write under 1 handle. He has many and steals many other handles.
Amen.
AustinTX, we only have 2 choices. Love and follow Jesus (truth) or love and follow satan (lies).
Choose wisely. Your soul depends on it. P.S. Only Jesus saves. The rest are lies from satan.
Amen.
Heavensent, you certainly express one of the viewpoints some people get from the Bible, which is fine. Others read the same things you rely on and get something different. I'm not sure the God of the Bible is playing a cosmic game of "gotcha" with us and will condemn those who genuinely seek him but misunderstand some of his teachings and character. Who knows - maybe you're the one misunderstanding what you read and God will condemn you to hell for being so rigid and condemning towards people who have a different (and possibly correct) interpretation.
HeavenSent has been brainwashed.
Amen.
HeavenSent-
"Abomination of Desolation" maybe, but what did Jesus ever call just an "abomination" in the gospels?
@HaedesSent,
...oh come on...
We all know you have a drop down menu, from which you select your multiple personalities.