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April 21st, 2011
12:01 AM ET
My Take: Is Judas in heaven or hell? God only knows
By Craig Gross, Special to CNN I heard a news clip promoting my recent speaking engagement at a church, and they mentioned that I deal with some of "the greatest sinners of all time." I thought to myself: Do I? Would people who are caught up in porn and sexual sin addictions consider themselves some of the greatest sinners of all time? Probably not. Without a doubt, Judas, the biblical disciple of Jesus, is considered the greatest sinner of all time because of what he did to Jesus. Here is the passage from Luke 22:21-22.
No surprises there. But for the one who turns him in - who turns traitor to the Son of Man - this is doomsday. Let me tell you a little bit about what the Bible says about Judas: He was personally chosen to be an apostle by Jesus. He spent 3 1/2 years traveling with Jesus. He saw all the miracles of Christ in person. He watched as Christ healed the sick, raised the dead and cast out demons. In terms of experience with Jesus, whatever you can say about Peter, James and John, you can say about Judas. On top of all this, he handled the money, which is most of the time the most trusted one in the bunch. No one suspected that Judas would betray Jesus, which tells me he was a believer. His life was changed. He knew Jesus personally. In a dark moment of his life, he made a mistake. A big one. He sold Jesus out for 30 silver coins or so. The moment he knew what he had done, he felt remorse, and he killed himself. I am not here to debate theology. The facts are the facts. I don't think Judas was “The Mole,” like the reality show character who's there to sabotage the game from the beginning. I think he made a mistake and now has gone down as committing the biggest sin of all time. Judas heard every message, saw every miracle, and still screwed up. Recently, I asked on my Facebook page: "Is Judas in heaven or hell?" The first response was:
There is a button on Facebook that I have started to love. It is called “unfriend.” I won't unfriend you because you believe differently than I do, I just don’t need more theologians as my friends on Facebook who speak with such confidence when it comes to someone's place in eternity. A debate continues on my Facebook wall. I love how everyone is so convinced they know whether Judas is in heaven or hell. I don't know who gets in, actually. Do I believe in heaven and hell? Yes. I believe one is dark and one is light, and they both last forever. Belief Blog: What if there is no hell? What is interesting to me is that in the upper room where Jesus and his disciples shared their last supper together, the 12 disciples all talked about how they were so great. Peter left the room and denied Jesus three times. Judas left the room and sold Jesus out for 30 coins. One committed suicide, and one went on to build the church as we know it today. Both Peter and Judas committed the same sin. They both denied Jesus. But why do most people think one goes to heaven and one goes to hell? This is not the debate Christians need to be engaged in. We don’t know. Instead of wasting our time on these types of arguments inside our little Christian world, maybe we should look inside ourselves this Easter. It is easier to debate these issues and make speculations about others than it is to actually look at ourselves in the mirror. It is always easier to think someone else is worse off then we are. But maybe as we approach Easter, we can be reminded that for Christians, the cross and the grave should silence all of these debates. We all fall short and deserve death, but because of what Jesus did on the cross 2,000 years ago, we are able to have life. And I believe that where you end up, God only knows. |
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Editor's Note: 
Oh boy...well it's obvious to anyone that I don't take the Bible stories and more specifically the canonical gospels of M,M,L and J to be anything more than a collection of fabrications purposely designed by it's authors to further their agenda. The anonymous writers were tripping over themselves to make the story of Jesus mesh with the jewish old testament. Possibly to woo converts over to christianity while maintaining the basic tenants of an already well established jewish law. The story of Judas is a literary device demonstrating the moral consequences of betrayal leading to guilt. I mean seriously how could anyone accept the motive for Judas' actions. 30 coins were sufficient to make Judas turn against him? After witnessing Jesus perform miracles, listening to sage advise on morality, being a close and trusted ally and keeper of the books. Judas was given exactly the kinds of evidence I might accept to believe in God. How then could he knowingly jeopardise his very soul by turning against Jesus? It's insane and streches the credibility of the story beyond reason. And if it was actually the case that Judas was insane then he technically isn't responcible for his actions. Either way it doesn't wash.
The tale of Cain and Abel is likewise problematic. The story of the first murder highlights the blood thirsty nature of God. Cain is upset because God favors Abels offering of animal sacrifice over his offering of produce. I guess God isn't a vegan. Enraged Cain slays his brother (I mean really?...what kind of family values were Adam and Eve instilling in their children?). Also Cain too would be absolutely sure about the existence of God through direct communication and yetl he also jeopardises his eternal soul. The actions of the people depicted in the Bible are beyond unbelievable.
Add to that the fact that they couldn't get their stories straight, even on the easy stuff. To give a pertinent example, according to Matthew, Judas betrayed Christ with the famous kiss, as portrayed in the (very gay looking) picture that heads this article. According to John, he didn't, as he could not get close enough.
They're called eye witness accounts for a reason Colin...
There is no verifiable evidence to validate the existence of any Gods. Without verified evidence supporting the existence of God, the bible is irrelevant.
Please provide the evidence that supports the concept that your God exists to be verified.
Isn't this when the faithful trot out faith as if it's a reasonable alternative to rational thought and logic?
My favorite is when they try to equate scientific acceptance of evolution with their superst-itions, calling it "just another religion".
Can you provide that there are no Gods? No, no you can not. That's kind of the point of faith. You can't prove or disprove anything.
@Mjollnir: Sorry, I do not need to prove that no gods exists because I am not claiming they do exist. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
You are claiming that a god exists, not that faith exists. Faith is easy to prove. What you have faith "in" is what requires verification.
Please provide your evidence for verification.
I did not claim that a god exists, though you implied that one doesn't. Thus, the burden of proof lies with you, the accuser.
Eric please hang yourself like judas. I would then be happy that you are blotted out.
Amen..
Colin, I've never called evolution another "religion". I've always said it was BS designed to stroke the big egos who refuse to give up their sinful ways.
Amen.
Well Reality,cough. It took you 3 hours to post after I insulted you (LOL).
Amen.
@HaedesSent,
Wow. You are ONE sick ba-stard.
"Go hang yourself"......"Amen". ??..??..??
OMG. There are no words to describe your corrupted soul.
Good story...I do believe that none of us knows without a shadow of a doubt where Judas is. I do believe that the Bible tells us that he is in H-ell but until that great day of Judgement for all of us I have to say I truly can't say for sure.
@ Adelina,
Glad that your a believer. Don't get angry at these folks that have "BD" disease....Blind and Do-omed. Remember we all had this disease at one time....we just chose to get Dr. Jesus to save us. Just don't play into their hands...they won't change and maybe its not you or I that can change them.
Yes, everyone who doesn't accept what you say is blind and doomed. Perhaps more people would accept Jesus if there was rational arguments or some evidence that he was God.
At this point, your claim to "knowing God" is just as good as the druids, muslims, hindus and any other god based religion out there.
@CW – Don't get angry at these folks that have "BD" disease....Blind and Do-omed
That's funny... try "rational and reality based"... develop some critical thinking skills.
CW, are standing in support of Adelina? Do you support her repeated belief that the Bible is perfect and holy and contains no mistranslations, errors or contradictions? Do you stand behind her belief that Christ was pro-death penalty? Do you stand behind her lies and cowardice?
She is not faithful, she is a liar who spits on everything christians should stand for. If ANYONE here on this board is doomed for theoretical hell, it would be her...
Gaunt, I stand behind Adelina's truth that the Bible is perfect and holy and contains no mistranslations, errors or contradictions? I also stand by that Christ is pro-death penalty? Jesus told us in His letter to us (the Bible) to send pre-meditated murderers back to Him. Others will see that we send murderers back to Him and this behavior will stop.
Amen.
No errors or contradictions huh? LOL! I'll give you one even though there are hundreds.
“And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, ‘THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—Matthew 27:37
“The inscription of the charge against Him read, ‘THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—Mark 15:26
“Now there was also an inscription above Him, ‘THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—Luke 23:38
“Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, ‘JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS’.”
—John 19:19
Two men die.
The first was an evil, man onsessed with casual brutality and violating young women. His body count was in the hundreds, and he was vain, greedy and delf-obsessed. In his final hours in old age, he realises the error of his ways, and seeks genuine repentance for his many thousands of misdeeds, and accepts JC in his last moments.
Person two is a kind, geneour, forgiving, patient man, who dedicates his life to helping others. He gives all his money to the less fortunate, and aids anyone, no matter their beliefs or race, without seeking reward or even recognition. He is a Hindu.
According to the bible thumpers, person one is in paradise while person two burns down below.
And you DARE call yourselves moral?
Your hypothesis is not possible with the present mankind. Such Hindu, or any human being like that, never exited and never will.
Adelina, you're playing word games. How about this!
A man who is a horrible person who murders dozens, steals, forces himself on women and destroys the lives of children is dying. At the last moment he sees the grace of God and accepts JC. According to the bible he is saved and goes to heaven.
A man who gives his life to charity, feeding the hungry and giving everything he could to help others in this world was initially a Christian but converted to Hindu in the last years of his live due to a mental condition.
There, now you can't hide behind "never heard the word of Jesus". One man does horrible things and takes from others. The other gives literally everything. One goes to heaven, one goes to hell.
This is immoral.
Also, how can heaven be heaven if you know a loved family member is burning in hell?
Once again, Adelina shows that her only true charaictaristic is complete cowardice. But hey, better than your LAST cowardly attempt to avoid this basic theological issue, when you spewed bigoted anti-Hindu lies. You always find a way to humiliate yourself in public, its quite amusing.
However your cowardly avoidance tactics do not conceal the fact that the above IS entirely possible, in fact probable. I know you have never heard of Gandhi, as you lack even a grade school education, but thats your own fault.
Deal with the issue Adelina, or are you too much of a coward to even stand behind your own absurdist beliefs?
Yeah, I gotta agree with you on this, Gaunt. Adelina's comment didn't even make sense that time. I don't even know what she's saying.
Let us not forget that the entire principle of jesus, the entire reason to supposedly worship him, is that he died on the cross to save humanity 's sins. So, given that this death is supposedly the greatest gift mankind has ever recieved, why exactly is Judas in hell for his part in making it happen?
Judas would have betrayed Peter, John, or Paul. Result of greed is the same. Judas showed what greedy people among us would do to the Son of God on earth. There are lots of people who are worse than Judas, Pontius Pilate and Hitler in the world. They just were not in particular positions. That's why there is the Judgment Day. Worry for your own standing before God, Gaunt. Everyone needs Jesus for forgiveness and salvation.
Greedy? How was he Greedy? The other deciples wanted to let Christ livem, and so doom mankind. Judas realised that only the horrible excritiating death could save mankind (somehow, though exactly how or why is never explained), and so made it happen. he is the hero of the Bible, while all the other deciples were cowards.
Oh. I see. They were all cowards. No wonder you worship them.
Hello,
it is somehow interesting that at Easter some people start to think about Judas Iscariot. I would find it more appropriate to think about Jesus Christ than Judas at Easter festival.
Some people seem to have an intellectual problem with the issue of Judas: How could a disciple or a saved man do such a awful sin.
According to the doctrine of the german theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer ("The Cost of Discipleship") Judas was baptized. Judas was just baptized by the call of Jesus Christ: "Come on and follow me". Not anybody had called Judas, but Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God. This call was supernatural and powerful. Judas seemed to be obedient to Jesus' call.
Jesus and his disciples were a small-scale Church that means, everything was organized and they even had a cash box (coffer) and the housekeeper, managing the cash box, was Judas Iscariot. Once upon a time a extremly devout woman came and anoint Jesus with a very costly salve. When Judas saw the waste of the salve he criticized Jesus that the salve could have been sold and the money could have been given to the poor. No matter what Judas said, he was not concerned about the poor, but about his small income. Sometimes, when nobody was around, he found it easy to reach into God's cash box and to take the salary, which Jesus had neglected to pay him. Wasn't he the most diligent of them all?
The woman, who anointed Jesus had a very great appreciation for her Lord, but Judas was somewhat annoyed that the ordinary carpenters son allowed it to waste the salve instead to increase Judas' salary.
Although Judas was under the supernatural call of Jesus Christ, he never was a true disciple, because he just followed Jesus in order to earn money (simony). Judas was a fraud all the time. He had no appreciation for Jesus like the devout woman. The other 11 disciples loved Jesus truely and believed that he was the Son of God. However they were in danger to get "infected" by Judas disbelief.
It is nearly a crime to compare the denial of Jesus by Peter with the Judas' betrayal. Peter acted on impulse when he denied Jesus. Judas in contrast calculated for a long time how he could sell Jesus most effectively. When Jesus was captured, Peter started to fight for his beloved Lord. He cut away the ear of one of the soldiers. Peter really believed that Jesus was the king of Isreal and could not understand that Jesus didn't defend himself by using violence. Jesus just took the ear of the soldier and put it back to its place at the soldier's head (he cured him). Peter denied Jesus not because he wanted any money or because he was greedy for money, but because he didn't yet understand Jesus' way at the moment.
What was Jesus' way?
Jesus had to obedient to his heavenly father. It was the decision of God that Jesus should bear the sin of the whole mankind.
Assumed Jesus had struggled, the plan of God had never been fullfilled. By accepting to be killed, Jesus provided the basis for our salvation. Romans Chapter 6 says that we have died and resurrected together with Jesus. That means our old man of sin has died with Jesus at the cross and we have entered a new life in Jesus in the power of his resurrection. At Holy Baptism this salvation was dedicated to us.
Let us praise Jesus Christ that he made possible our salvation by his sorrow and suffering and the humiliation and shame He beared for us.
Our answer to Jesus' atonement must be discipleship (obedience). If we don't want to be obedient, our baptism will never become effective for us in any way. To the contrary if we don't follow Jesus after we have been baptized we are in big danger to get cursed.
Happy Easter,
Rainer Braendlein
http://www.confessingchurch.wordpress.com
> Some people seem to have an intellectual problem with the issue of Judas: How could a disciple or a saved man do such a awful sin.
Only morons. The real question is "Why would Judas go to hell for playing a key role in fulfilling God's holy plan?"
There are silly answers like "Jesus would have still died if Judas didn't betray him", which is a totally baseless claim given that God planned for this to occur knowing that Judas would betray Jesus. And he knew this because Judas was created based on his original design for the universe. Omnipotent and Omniscient are heavy things to throw around.
It all comes down to this for me. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he created the universe and created the minds of everyone on this planet knowing what they'd do every moment of their lives. As such, there is no free will. We are designed to act specifically as God intended for us. Therefore Judas could not be logically blamed for his actions.
If God isn't omnipotent and omniscient, then why do we bother listening at all. God wouldn't be perfect and therefore, his concepts of right and wrong could be wrong, requiring us to look at reality and make a decision based on our culture.
Either way, God's rules aren't to be taken as absolute perfection or we don't have free will.
Why is it that with windy preachy types it seems that it's more about convincing THEMSELVES of the stuff they spout than about an authentic dialouge with an other.
Bob, do you have children? If yes, would you want them to love you conditionally just because you fathered them, or would you give them the choice to love you or not? That's how Jesus is with all of us. He gave us free will to love him or not. It's our choice. If we love and follow Him, we get to dwell with Him for eternity. If we reject and hate Him ... He doesn't want us around for eternity to nag Him aka just as a parent would love to show their 18 year old obnoxious child the door.
As for Hell. No one is in Hell, yet. Actually, it's not called Hell, it's called the eternal flames, blotted out. No eternity for that soul.
Amen.
sanjosemike
Rainer, You still didn't answer me. What have you done personally to assuage the sins of your German forefathers in the Holocaust which will forever mark the German people?
I believe there is a heaven and hell, but not in the conventional sense that has been propagated throughout time. I believe Judas probably was punished for his actions in some way, but not for an eternity. The guy made a mistake – is God really THAT unforgiving? If he's as all loving and all powerful as ALL religions believe, then I'm sure he got his "requisite slap on the wrist" and was sent on his way – where ever or whatever that may be.
On the lighter side of things, I've written a humorous book about Heaven and Hell (sorry for the shameless promotion – couldn't help myself). The story goes like this:
Satan has a problem. He has come up short on his quotas for collecting souls and he is none too pleased. With the help of his loyal and trusted companion, Grim Reaper, the pair orchestrate a natural disaster that will balance the “books”.
With an undertaking of this size, the two will need to hire some help. They outsource the work to Jesus, Hercules, Mary and Joseph, right under the nose of God. The plan is doomed from its inception, but Satan is a determined little demon and will stop at nothing to succeed. With Jesus’ drinking problem, Hercules’ steroid addiction and Mary and Josephs marital troubles, could Satan’s plan really have a chance?
Follow the long cast of immortals as they manage to turn their celestial world upside down.
The link below will take you to a better "showing" of the book.
http://christopherdavidpetersen.wordpress.com/bookstore/what-in-hell-is-up-with-heaven/
Again, my apology for the shameless promotion.
> I believe there is a heaven and hell, but not in the conventional sense that has been propagated throughout time.
What basis do you have for this belief? If it's not what is written, what do you base your conclusions on?
> I believe Judas probably was punished for his actions in some way, but not for an eternity. The guy made a mistake – is God really THAT unforgiving?
Yes, God as described by the Christians is that unforgiving. God will burn you in a lake of fire forever for simply not believing he existed. Ie, damning you for a thought. However, those Christians with a brain would realize that Judas was performing a holy act (one predesignated by God), and therefore is above sin by default. That is, if you buy the ridiculous claims of the Christian faith.
> If he's as all loving and all powerful as ALL religions believe, then I'm sure he got his "requisite slap on the wrist" and was sent on his way – where ever or whatever that may be.
Why? If he's all powerful and omniscient, how can you relate and predict the actions of a being you cannot intelligently understand.
> On the lighter side of things, I've written a humorous book about Heaven and Hell (sorry for the shameless promotion – couldn't help myself). The story goes like this:
Groan.
> Satan has a problem. He has come up short on his quotas for collecting souls and he is none too pleased. With the help of his loyal and trusted companion, Grim Reaper, the pair orchestrate a natural disaster that will balance the “books”.
My brain... folding... in upon itself...
> With an undertaking of this size, the two will need to hire some help. They outsource the work to Jesus, Hercules, Mary and Joseph, right under the nose of God. The plan is doomed from its inception, but Satan is a determined little demon and will stop at nothing to succeed. With Jesus’ drinking problem, Hercules’ steroid addiction and Mary and Josephs marital troubles, could Satan’s plan really have a chance?
I think I'm in hell now...
> Follow the long cast of immortals as they manage to turn their celestial world upside down.
After you sold the concept so well? How could I not!
> The link below will take you to a better "showing" of the book. http://christopherdavidpetersen.wordpress.com/bookstore/what-in-hell-is-up-with-heaven/
Again, my apology for the shameless promotion.
You're not sorry. Otherwise you wouldn't have done it. 🙂
The Judas stories are mostly legends created by M, M, L and J.
For example:
http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=189_Better_Not_Born:
And from Professor Gerd Ludemann's book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 96:
"Jesus never spoke the words about the betrayal of Jesus e.g. Mark 14: 17-21. Rather, from the fact the Jesus was betrayed, early Christians concluded that Jesus must have known this in advance and therefore prophesied it. "
The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men.
Proverbs 24:9
Amen.
One might as well debate whether the Wicked Witch of the West went to "HappyLand" or "ScareyLand" after the house fell on her.
Classic theological drivel. The kind of meaningless nonsense that makes up 99% of Christian's (and other religions') beliefs.
We feel the same about you ... classic pride drivel. The kind of meaningless nonsense that makes up 99% of the BIG EGOs that are full of themselves blinded by the sin of PRIDE.
Amen.
I was not aware anyone could be in 'hell' before the judgement. None the less we have several facts with which to contend. Judas was with the others and experienced the same things they did. However, he was already morally compromised in that he regularly stole from that treasury he was entrusted with as John reports to us. As far as his motive, did he want to force Jesus' hand by threatening his life, or had this man he had believed to be messiah dissapointed him when he did not foment the rebellion that was expected of him? We do not know. As far as what we do know, Peter and Judas both denied him. The difference is in their end. Peter repented and was returned to communion with the Lord, while Judas despaired and hung himself. Let God Judge!
Who, then, is the biggest sinner? That would be me.
Judas didn't die from hanging. He had help. They gutted him.
Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
P.S. The sin of pride does not become you ... choosing this handle.
Amen.
> Judas didn't die from hanging. He had help. They gutted him.
How christian of them.
Actually, in Acts Judas fell down and his midsection exploded, so he died.
However in Matthew 27, he went of alone, and hanged himself.
Just another one of those many contradictions in the Bible...
Yes, right, he fell down alright ... gutted like a deer hanging over the hood of your car.
Amen.
Bob, Christians didn't kill Judas. Those that conspired with Judas to betray Jesus gutted him to ensure he was dead. Dead men tell no tales.
Amen.
Is it just me, or does that picture look really gay, like they are about to kiss?
They are about to kiss. That is how Judas identified him when he betrayed him to the soldiers.
2,000 years later and we still believe these Iron Age fairytales.
I hope present pervertic Americans still remember that there is brotherly friendship among men in this world.
> They are about to kiss. That is how Judas identified him when he betrayed him to the soldiers.
Jesus might have been gay too. To hear the catholics tell it, he didn't take a wife and surrounded himself with men in loose fitting robes...
And he was always telling sinners and sodomites to 'get thee behind me'...
@Colin,
It's a Rohrschack test. One who sees "gay" in this may be telling us more about themself than the work of art, and more than they really want others to know. (It's a common Middle Eastern form of greeting, still in use today.)
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1 Corinthians 3:18
Amen.
What is most unusual is that Judas is depicted as a hooked nose semite while Jesus , a true semite, has morphed into some sandy haired nordic type in paintings and depictions. Does society reject the semitic look in favor of the nordic look or was Jesus actually a wandering Swede.,
Everyone should care about one's own eternal destiny and what he or she should do now, instead of Judas' or Pontius Pilate's.
> Everyone should care about one's own eternal destiny and what he or she should do now, instead of Judas' or Pontius Pilate's.
But what if this discussion shows a flaw in the bible that saves billions from following a false God? What if Islam is the right answer? What if the Mormons have it right?
A better question is why does there have to be an eternal life afterwards at all? Besides the obvious reason of making people less afraid of death.
Bob, Jesus made provisions for those that unknowingly followed a false god(s). As for eternity, you'd know this to be true if you studied His truth (the Bible). Best teachers on TV today is Pastor Murray and his son, also a pastor at Shepherd's Chapel. They teach the Bible book by book, scripture by scripture. They also answer questions after each show. They're on M-F, anywhere from 2:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Check your TV listings. Other than watching them, you can listen to them on your computer at shepherdschapel.com
Amen.
Judas is dead, as is Jesus. They aren't anywhere. Hell and Heaven are BS.
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Romans 12:16
Amen.
So if "God only knows", then shut up about it and quit speculating on it.
.
The problem is people wanting to play god who pretend they know what their "god" is doing, thinking, reacting, feeling, etc.
Who gives a crap what happened to some character in a fictional book?
Judas may have been Jesus' own brother if they existed.
As head of a fringe heretical cult, Jesus would have been on the run, escaping the religious violence aimed in his direction by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem.
Yet if Jesus' "miracles" had been truly real, who is dumb enough to think that the Romans would have ignored such a thing?
Too many things point to Jesus being a fraud, a faker with some common con-artist tricks blended with a mystical line of claptrap.
That's why he was executed. Because he was a fake.
Anyone with real "miracles" would have been asked to prove them or die.
Since this is not how his execution is portrayed, I think that is just one more reason to think he was a cheap fraud.
A few "unrepeatable" miracles means fraud is more likely than not.
Not being asked about his miracles and not being asked to do any of them to prove his "power" means that the Romans were not executing him for religious reasons. They were executing him for actual crimes.
Too many things don't add up with Jesus or any of the obviously fake stories produced by Paul of Tarsus.
And every religion is like that. Obvious con-games, fraud, and blatant lies hidden under "mystical" importance depending on who is "interpreting" them to the gullible masses.
Religion is for delusional people. One day all delusions will be gone.
.
Hey delusional "Christians"! Jesus gave you the power to do miracles, why haven't there been ANY miracles since he died?
The answer is pretty obvious, but delusional people are blind to the realities of their delusion, so no one will be able to admit the truth as "believers" lest they realize they don't have anything to believe in.
Comfortable BS won't help you in the real world unless you're shoveling it like the author of this article.
Unfortunately, every time there is a natural disaster, perhaps a tsunami that kills thousands, some idiot, often in the media, will cry "It's a Miracle" if someone is found to have survived under some rubble somewhere. I wish just once these tards would take a moment to to consider how many people died first. If "GOD" could save one, why did he allow thousands to perish? People point to "miraculous" recoveries by people suffering from such diseases as cancer.. "Doctors are mystified! It's a Miracle!." Show me a single case of someone who has lost a limb have it grow back. If "God" can miraculous cure someone, why does he discriminate against amputees? What's up with that, "God?"
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3
Amen.
"Miracles" work better in certain contexts... It needs to be something that seems impossible otherwise. If dead people came back to life all the time, suddenly raising the dead wouldn't be much of a miracle.
So people consider one person surviving a large disaster a miracle specifically because thousands others died. The bigger the tragedy, the more of a miracle it is to have any positive outcomes.
Personally, I think this religious way of thinking is disturbing. Most "miracles" only happen because for instance there were people searching for survivors, and machines to clear debris (and people who trained those people, designed those machines, etc). Giving any credit to God undermines our own potential. If we realized all the power is in us, not some invisible man in the sky calling the shots, then maybe we would invest more in ourselves.
Heavensent: Verily I say unto you….I know more than you….. rih:1:1 Get the point!
Religion is total horsesh1t. Discussing the nuances of horsesh1t is a bizarre waste of time.
The lucky ones are free of these phony mental prisons, free to live their lives. The misguided ones are warden, prisoner and guard of their own religion prison, trying to make sense of a tangled ancient supersti tion, wasting their lives on horsesh1t.
Faith is the fervent belief in the obviously untrue. Go on believing. I won't try to help you free yourselves from your deluded self-oppression anymore. Honestly, you deserve it. Unfortunately, you also keep shoving the horsesh1t down everyone else's throats.
Faith is built upon a foundation of allegory and metaphor that can be interpreted to the readers' needs. Faith is a tool, and a simple and obvious one at that. Faith can only be realized by asking for it. Those that don't need it – need not apply.
"I won't try to help you free yourselves..." Thanks for finally giving up on the quintessential 'fools errand.' I'm sure that you'll be happier now, and you'll be -much- less angry at the world. Internalized anger is truly bullshít.
Here, try this... OOOOmmmmmmm OOOOmmmmmm
> and you'll be -much- less angry at the world.
I don't know how you know he's angry. Using bad language isn't an indication of anger. Sounds like there's a bit of transferrence going on here.
And no, faith is not a tool. Faith is gullibility. Faith has led many people to the wrong conclusions about God or the supernatural. Therefore, it's only real applicable use is to provide some sort of mechanism for people to believe what they want while providing a false cover of some sort of reason for doing so.
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Matthew 23:12
Amen.
Then why read the article?
> Then why read the article?
Because I'm trying to learn about theology and it's differnt practices.
This was beautifully written and explains exactly what I think in terms of sinners, heaven and he.ll.
Only God knows the final answer.
So if only God knows the final answer, doesn't that mean the conclusions of what people can and cannot be sent to hell for are meaningless in the bible? If the process by which God sends people to hell is unknown, how can we know all sins are equal?
@Bobinator not exactly, where you spen eternity is based on your behavior and Gods grace. So you have to at least ry to be good. God forgives but you have to try most of us try some us us don't try hard enough. I'm not point fingers just stating a fact. Believing alone is not enough some of the mafia guys are in trouble (I think). But God gets the final call. Fortunately for us his justice is fair and perfect so we will all get what we deserve.
> Not exactly, where you spend eternity is based on your behavior and Gods grace.
Which no one can quantify. If the bible implies that Judas is burning in hell and he's not, the bible is therefore wrong (in context of this argument). As such, your conclusion of what God values and doesn't based on a flawed book. So by what method are you using to determine how a being of infinite knowledge, a being you cannot relate to or comprehend, judges us?
> I'm not point fingers just stating a fact.
It's a fact that the bible says it. It's also a fact that the bible is wrong on things about the past. It's therefore a fact that the bible contains errors. Ergo, anything the bible says could be wrong.
> Believing alone is not enough some of the mafia guys are in trouble (I think). But God gets the final call. Fortunately for us his justice is fair and perfect so we will all get what we deserve.
Again, it's not fair and perfect. God judges us based on how we interpret a book that is poorly written and va-gue. Hell, there's 4000 demoniations of Christianity. Which one is the best? So, his judgement of us, based on our lack of knowledge cannot be fair and perfect unless it's based on our own specific perceptions of what's right and wrong.
And if that's the case, then what good is the bible?
The Bobinator, and you call us names about being ignorant. Let me simply explain this AGAIN to you. Hold your pride and read His truth. WE, meaning all of us were with Him from the beginning. Lucifer, out of the sin of PRIDE (all of you non-believers are guilty of this sin) rebelled against God and took 1/3 of God's angels with him. Lucifer wanted to be bigger and better than God. God's wrath destroyed the first earth age. After about 14 days, God created the world again (eon) meaning time for this 2nd earth age (that we live in now). Hence, the books of Genesis to Revelation explain this earth age. God then gave all of us a 2nd chance by being born of woman to come to earth, housed in human form to love and follow Him. Our second choice is to love and follow satan. Therefore, if we were with God from the beginning, were destroyed in the first earth age, came back to this earth age being born of woman housed in human form... of course God knows who we are and what we did back in the first earth age. However, he gave us free will. Choose wisely. Your soul depends on the choice you make.
Amen.
@Boninator, The Bible is a guide to our realationship with God. It is not God only a guide. I believe in God So I believe his justice is perfect. You don't believe thats your right. My point remains the same belief in God alone is not enough you have to behave well. God can forgive but who have to genuinly seek forgivness not pay limp service to it. You asked "So if only God knows the final answer, doesn't that mean the conclusions of what people can and cannot be sent to hell for are meaningless in the bible?" the answer for who gets into to heaven is it depends on what you do, how you do it and why you do it. God gets the final call but will base his judgement on you and it will be fair because he is God. He is not trying to send you to hell but you can get there. Belief is less important then behavior. We don't know who will go where because we don't know a person really we can see what they do, we can never really know why we only know what they say. Whe I said I'm not pointing fingers I only meant I'm not saying who is or is not behaving well or going to where I just saying some are behaving well others are not. we all fail tahts why he offers forgiveness but we have to try and when we fail we have to truly want forgiveness not just say so to get away with something.
That is why we are told to not judge, to not condemn, only God knows the heart of a man. The pastor is right, we should not be arguing whether Judas is in hell or heaven, there are far more important things we need to be doing, like providing for the hungry, healing the sick.
HeavenSent, just take a step back and read your post. You REALLY beleave all of that stuff about the first Earth and Lucifer and all that? Remove yourself for just a moment from the culture of Christianity and just read your post. That really seems likely despite no geological or archiological evidence? Why not just beleave that Zenu packed a bunch of people from his planet into spaceships that look like 747's, shipped them to Earth, tied them to volcanoes, blew them up with nuclear weapons, and those spirits now inhabit our bodies as Thetans. Sounds just as likely as your story. But your story is older and made up in ancient history so it MUST be true.
> Why not just beleave that Zenu packed a bunch of people from his planet into spaceships that look like 747's, shipped them to Earth, tied them to volcanoes, blew them up with nuclear weapons, and those spirits now inhabit our bodies as Thetans.
Because people are conditioned against how crazy their own personal beliefs are. I bet many Christians would take issue with this statement.
Christianity: The belief that a virgin was impregnated by God to give birth to the son of God, who was sacrificed to God to remove the sin of a rib lady who was tricked by a snake to eat and have her husband eat of the fruit of knowledge.
Now, because God's plans aren't stupid and needlessly complex and given that the whole event seems very rational, I can see how people would accept this without the need of evidence.
Ok Heaven, you can now post your bible quotes that somehow, in your own mind, totally destroy my post. Because actually addressing my claims, like "It's moronic to believe in ridiculous stories without evidence to back them up" is too difficult.
So I read the 22nd Chapter of Luke and I noticed that Jesus did not kick Judas out of the Passover meal. Presumably Judas received the bread and wine just as the others at the meal. Is there a lesson there for some who would deny communion to certain politicians who don't tow the party line ?
The line in the article about Judas being in hell for 2000 years is childish. When we die we ALL, (wink, wink), know eternity begins, and the state of eternity according to Christain doctrine is the eternal "now". Time is a creature, and a thing of the past, in eternity. So to speak of being in hell for 600 billion trillion years is meaningless, to say nothing of being downright mean.
(Hopping down the bunny trail.)
The line in the article about Judas being in hell for 2000 years is childish
I think the authors is agreeing with you here not saying it is the correct idea. You make a great point about Judas staying for dinner its a sign that Christ had already forgiven him.
Wink, Wink yourself Puppet. There is no eternity for those that do not love and follow Jesus. Also, those that hate Jesus and refuse to repent, ask Him forgiveness and sin no more do find themselves in the eternal flames, blotted out.
Amen.
@HaedesSent,
So which is it ? You say there "is NO eternity for those etc."
Then you say the others are doomed to spend ETERNITY in your home, Haedes.
This is a beautiful posting on a question which has haunted people for many centuries. There is a wonderful old poem – The Ballad of Judas Iscariot by Robert Buchanan-which is just beautiful to read and reflect upon during this Holy Week. There is also another more modern poem-Two Mothers-(not aware of the author) which again is good for reflection upon the subject of Judas. Both Judas and Peter denied Christ, both made different choices and both came to different ends-but the love, compassion and forgiveness was the same for both and we should look at this when thinking of our own failings. We are loved and -if we are TRULY sorry-we are forgiven, no matter what.
Minnie, they both asked for forgiveness and repented. That's the key. They humbled themselves to ask.
Amen.
The story of Judas was one of the reasons I started to question religion. It seems the guy was set up by god, because somebody had to betray Christ so that believers could have their golden ticket into paradise. So if there is a heaven, Judas should be in it, otherwise god just used him and threw him away.
However, I don't believe in an after life and if Judas ever lived, he died and decomposed and is now part of the earth, the same fate that will befall every human who was ever born.
Without Judas, Jesus would have died exactly the same. God foreknew what Judas whould do and warned him, but he ignored it all out of his greed just like Cain and Esau. He could have asked forgiveness and start anew just like Peter would. He didn't. There are and have been many unrepentant traitors among humans. Judas was just a typical.
Whatever. I say Judas was set up and god did the betraying.
@Tallulah, Judas did the both. God is not like you.
> Without Judas, Jesus would have died exactly the same. God foreknew what Judas whould do and warned him, but he ignored it all out of his greed just like Cain and Esau. He could have asked forgiveness and start anew just like Peter would. He didn't. There are and have been many unrepentant traitors among humans. Judas was just a typical.
Why is it that Christians have this mindless and patently false opinion of time and free will?
1. Time is the measurement we use to describe the sequential chronological order of events that occur on our planet.
2. Events that occur "later" in time are based on the results of previous events that have occured.
If God knows the future, he knows what Judas would do. Judas does not have the option to deviate from his path. If God created the universe, and more specifically, the beings that exist on it from Adam and Eve all the way down to Judas, God is responsible for their actions.
It's akin to creating a knife, knowing it's sharp, knowing that you will cut yourself with it, use it, cut yourself with it and then say "DAMN YOU TO HELL KNIFE". It's moronic.
Dont bother Bobinator.
Such theological debates as the impossibility of free will under an omniscient god may have been heavy discussions for the likes of Aquinas and Scotus, but they are way too deep for the pre-grade-school intellect (if that) of someone like Adelina, who has likely never even heard of those men. Might as well try and discuss the history of iconoclasty with a poodle.
Judas had a choice Chirist was going to die yes someone would betray him yes but Judas made his own choice his path was not forced. The article suggests he may still be in heaven and he may be because of what Christ did and becasue God forgives. He still amde a choice and it was a bad one but it was his.
> Dont bother Bobinator.
I'm not here to convince her. I'm here to convince the people who are sitting on the fence saying "hrm, I'm not sure".
People like her are either trolls or fanatics, both are unreasonable. 😀
tallulah13, you're the walking spiritually dead right now with those dry brittle bones of yours, well without water.
Amen.
@Bobinator. Exactly. Pointing out logical errors to the stupid is a useful if frustrating endeavour, as there are many observers present who may not be as dense.
Ha! I knew you'd make some nonsensical comment about bones, HS. Thanks for not letting me down. I like a good laugh.
Christ had to die so that you believers could get your golden ticket. Whether it was Judas or someone else, someone has to be the betrayer and poor Judas pulled the short straw. Judas was dammed for your sins.
tallulah13, make all the excuses you want for not loving and following Jesus. Try to get Jesus to buy into them. LOL.
Amen.
Welcome to adulthood. In a strange way, atheism is liberating. Nobody can tell you how to think without YOUR permission.
@Gaunt: You don't make the arguments that TheBobinator has with any expectation that Adelina will change her/his mind, but making the argument is still important. You make it for the fence sitters, those who are not totally committed to the god idea. Those who are still open to reason and logic.
Non-believers go to hell for the lack of remission of sin. Everyone needs to believe in Jesus to be saved.
Adelina,
If what you've written is true then all of the people who came before Christ or who for reasons of geography and rudimentary lines of communication never learned of Christ in their lifetimes are condemned to hell. How do you expalin this?
@Dcspeed: People will be judged fairly. The knowledge of afterlife and sense of God's judgment is universal. No excuses. Those who genuinely seek Truth find Jesus regardless. No pretention possible, either.
@Archeron: The humanity's sin is the utmost reality. Wake up from your dream. Willful rejection is the worst sin of all. The Bible is laid out open to you. Everyone into the fair judgment. Jesus the Divine Savior came to save us. That's the timeless, universal message we sinful mankind have.
> People will be judged fairly. The knowledge of afterlife and sense of God's judgment is universal. No excuses. Those who genuinely seek Truth find Jesus regardless. No pretention possible, either.
Do you see what you're doing here? You're mentally blocking out the possibility that your faith could be wrong. If everyone has knowledge and a sense and has "no excuse" you're saying to yourself "everyone should believe in it, and those who don't choose not to see it." And therefore, you're preventing the concept of "people rejecting it legitimately" from even being considered.
That's not how intelligent people look at problems. They consider all viewpoints and weigh out their arguments. A decision is made based on those positions. You on the other hand make conclusions about positions you probably aren't aware of based on your presupposed decision.
> The humanity's sin is the utmost reality. Wake up from your dream. Willful rejection is the worst sin of all. The Bible is laid out open to you. Everyone into the fair judgment. Jesus the Divine Savior came to save us. That's the timeless, universal message we sinful mankind have.
Actually, the judgement of God isn't fair, because he applies abstract values that are poorly explained for us and open for different interpretations. Furthermore, God seems to judge us based on what he wants us to be, not what he created us to be. Kind of odd, don't you think? Holding any creature to a higher standard, a standard that it cannot comprehend is just plain silly and unfair. We don't punish a shark for willfully killing a person but we do if a person kills another willfully.
@Dcspeed: Those who lived before Christ got saved by trusting in the coming Savior. We are waiting for His second coming. The first time was for atoning, this time for judgment and ruling. The world was never without the presence of His testimonies.
Bobinator, whatever you feel, there is God's unchangable Word in this world. Whether you like it or not, you will take the consequences. Criminals think the world belongs to them, but it does not. Warnings and the words of the Hope have been given to you. Don't choose whatever the warped youself decides. Wake up.
Oh Adelina, nice to see you back. This place was boring without your pathalogical lies and shameful cowardice. Hey, you know what is amusing? After your last series of outright lies in another news item (your claim that mankind progressed in the dark ages BECAUSE of religion, (laughter)), I annihilated your absurd claims and staggering ignorance of history and basic theology, just as I did for your previous tireade of lies, and the one before that.
At the end of my post, I made a prediction. Given that you have shown a universal need to lie, then flee like a coward when your lies are exposed, I predicted you would run like the coward you are, not even respond, and just go on spreading your lies in another thread. Sure enough, I was right.
You are a nausiating disgrace who knows even less about religion and theology than they do about history. Go crawl back under the sink and stop LYING every time you post!
@Adelina, Are you catholic?
No, she is a troll here, pretending to be a zealot in the stupidest manner possible in order to discredit the faithful. Its the only explanation, as nobody could possibly be as stupid as her by accident.
Among her claims, that mankind progressed out of the dark ages only because of the Church 9Laughter), That Christ was pro-death penalty (Laughter), that the bible is a perfect book without errors, mistranslations, or contradictions at all (laughter)... and thats just a few. She is quite astonishingly ignorant, and a well-demonstrated pathalogical liar.
> No, she is a troll here, pretending to be a zealot in the stupidest manner possible in order to discredit the faithful. Its the only explanation, as nobody could possibly be as stupid as her by accident.
Christopher Hitchens said it best when he said: "I love debating the faithful. Because you never know what they're going to say next."
I've found this to be true of some of the faithful and trolls here on the CNN faith blog. The fact that it's difficult to tell between the honest ignorance of some of the faithful vs. the manufactured stupidity of the trolls is telling, isn't it? 🙂
Adelina, I thought that the bible says only Moses was brought to Heaven, and he is the only person who came before Jesus to go to heaven (Jesus personally got him out). The rest sit in the first cricle of hell (similar to Dante's Inferno). I am not sure I am a believer in Heaven and Hell. Good and Evil, yes, but the rest seems strange to me. Either way, I think you were incorrect that Christians should believe that those who came before Jesus were saved. I think they were not. Sucks for them. Also any who have not heard the Word after Jesus, face a similar fate. They aren't in the depths of Hell, but on the outskirts, never reaching Heaven. That is if you believe in this garbage to begin with.
Adelina: Where was your god at Auschwitz? Have you ever heard of it? Do you know what happened there? Either your god is a psychopath, dead or asleep at the switch. No matter how you look at it, he/she/it did nothing and just let it happen. Your god has a lot to aplogize for, doesn't he? If your got exists, I hate him. That said, how can you hate something that doesn't exist? Don't give me that "free will garbage." You and I both know that's garbage.
if any want to quote the bible use Romans 6 vs 7 or 23 to know you have paid for your sins when you die. end of story until the resurrection spoken of in Revelation ch.20. (which will be on the earth) for details, respond to this post please.
Having to spend an afterlife with people like you would BE hell!
@dcspeed164,
They are noout in hell. They are in pergatory, and limbo. Just ask the pewp.
@Adelina
I was wondering if you could tell me at what point in time is God responsible for his own actions. Christianity teaches that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and created the world (and everything in it). At some point, shouldn't God be responsible for creating sin (or creating a being capable of sin)?
Let's try and put this in a more human scenario. I build a car and give it to someone. I tell him, "I forbid you to drive this car backwards." Later, I discover (or witness myself) that this person drove the car backwards. Therefore I kill him, because he did something that I told him not to. Was that fair for me to do? At what point in time does someone look at me and say, "If you didn't want the car to be driven backwards, why the *#&$ did you put in a reverse gear in the first place?!?!?!"
I'm going to hell for my beliefs? Sounds like the act of a loving God to me! Oh wait, I just read I can go to heaven if I enslave myself to worshiping him for all eternity. Actually, I think I'll take the hell route, at least I won't be lonely and under the rule of a totalitarian madman.
sanjosemike wrote: " Where was your god at Auschwitz? "
I have met people who insisted (with various reasons being given) that nothing of what had been reputed to go on in Auschwitz actually happened, but they were also "absolutely certain" that the Jews really "killed Christ"...