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May 12th, 2011
12:46 PM ET
Religious belief is human nature, huge new study claimsBy Richard Allen Greene, CNN London (CNN) - Religion comes naturally, even instinctively, to human beings, a massive new study of cultures all around the world suggests. "We tend to see purpose in the world," Oxford University professor Roger Trigg said Thursday. "We see agency. We think that something is there even if you can't see it. ... All this tends to build up to a religious way of thinking." Trigg is co-director of the three-year Oxford-based project, which incorporated more than 40 different studies by dozens of researchers looking at countries from China to Poland and the United States to Micronesia. Studies around the world came up with similar findings, including widespread belief in some kind of afterlife and an instinctive tendency to suggest that natural phenomena happen for a purpose. "Children in particular found it very easy to think in religious ways," such as believing in God's omniscience, said Trigg. But adults also jumped first for explanations that implied an unseen agent at work in the world, the study found. The study doesn't say anything about whether God, gods or an afterlife exist, said Justin Barrett, the project's other co-director. "This project does not set out to prove God or gods exist. Just because we find it easier to think in a particular way does not mean that it is true in fact," he said. Both atheists and religious people could use the study to argue their sides, Trigg told CNN. Famed secularist Richard "Dawkins would accept our findings and say we've got to grow out of it," Trigg argued. But people of faith could argue that the universality of religious sentiment serves God's purpose, the philosophy professor said. "Religious people would say, 'If there is a God, then ... he would have given us inclinations to look for him,'" Trigg said. The blockbuster study may not take a stance on the existence of God, but it has profound implications for religious freedom, Trigg contends. "If you've got something so deep-rooted in human nature, thwarting it is in some sense not enabling humans to fulfill their basic interests," Trigg said. "There is quite a drive to think that religion is private," he said, arguing that such a belief is wrong. "It isn't just a quirky interest of a few, it's basic human nature." "This shows that it's much more universal, prevalent, and deep-rooted. It's got to be reckoned with. You can't just pretend it isn't there," he said. And the Oxford study, known as the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project, strongly implies that religion will not wither away, he said. "The secularization thesis of the 1960s - I think that was hopeless," Trigg concluded. |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I love how they reiterate that the study was unable to conclude if there is or isn't a God, as if somebody might scour the article looking for absolutely proof.
XMess
I love how they reiterate that the study was unable to conclude if there is or isn't a God, as if somebody might scour the article looking for absolutely proof.
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The absence of establishes no god. Bar is set.
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The burden is on the party claiming something exists.
You know that's just political cover to try to keep the bible thumpers at bay.
@Artist actually you are wrong it becomes a circular arguement... and you by saying God does not exist then has to prove your position. there is actual foundational proof of God.. in Quantum Physics.
@crucified and the bible says that the bible says that the bible says
quacks like a circle...
Admiral, and the non-believers spews babble and spews babble and spew babble.
Quacks like ducks, but they aren't ducks. Always chasing their tails.
I'm getting to believe that you folks have absolutely no substance to who and what you are except for enjoying confusion. Hey, maybe if you believe you shake things up, you won't stick out like the sore thumbs you truly are.
Amen.
"I'm getting to believe that you folks have absolutely no substance to who and what you are except for enjoying confusion."
You are the one confused we can see through the con you cannot. If your god is as powerful as you believe then why are there so many other religions and other gods out there. You would think that this power god with his holy spirit would be far more influential than that. It's because there is nothing there...nada, the only thing out there is people like you using your imagination to fill your time and life so you don't have to deal with reality.
http://www.jesuscompanion.com
It is natural because GOD EXISTS. Jesus saves. (:
Chaz
It is natural because GOD EXISTS. Jesus saves. (:
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Well since you stated this, please provide proof/evidence....leave out all assumptions please
It is beyond me how anybody can read that our proclivity to creat gods, ghosts and goblins in ingrained in us, that there have been thousands of gods dreamed into existencve by the many civilizations, and then claim their god is "the real one".
Artist,
It's true, 'cause the bible says so. HA!
so do the invisible pink unicorns
Well, if you and pastor Bubba say so...it must be true.
'Jesus saves.'
but Ronaldo scores on the rebound! GOAAAAAAAAAL!
Thor is the one true God! Bow before mighty Thor!!!
What if Religion like everything else, is evolving? That would explain how primitive the “rules” were in the Old Testament, how relatively refined, Jesus’ teachings were to the people of his time and how those Religions all seem so ridiculous to a thoughtful person now. And as many have mentioned, how does an atheist know what is right? What is right to one is not right to all. But couldn’t some of these people with alternative views of what is right just be somewhere else on a tangent of evolution? And here is what I find interesting in the discussion. Maybe this (believing in god) feels right to us because there is a collective “right” and conversely “wrong” or evil and we all know it, but we have all come to despise the overbearing ways of today’s religions and are loath to call this searching as God? Maybe we need a new name for this which might make it easier for all of us to accept?
Very well put.
That's why His truth is called the living word.
Amen.
"I began to challenge my own perceptions, and think with logic, research, and objectivity"
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This is the biggest hurdle and challange for delusional people. Pretty hard to get past the hardwiring...takes a lot of effort and time to rewire the delusional mind.
challange??? meant challenge
Oh when you're young its not a delusion, its called imagination. Kids have active imaginations, an evolutionary adaptation for humans to be able to innovate (saw a very cool special about how the brain actually has a 'brainstorm' which introduces ideas and creative thought to our though processes). Delusional is a strong word. I did believe at the time there was something out there, but I had not yet been taught what the scientific method was nor how to properly apply it. Once I learned the process, and how to analyze literature, and read between the lines, only then does it become abundantly clear that these are stories written by people to control people. While there is good wisdom in a great many religious texts, taking them seriously requires a very real 'leap of faith', and faith is something, in my view, akin to 'trust'. I do not trust strangers, nor do I implicitly trust strange books with fantastical myths.
You own that delusional mind if you don't comprehend the following.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Through him (the Word) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
John 1:14,
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling with us..."
John 17:17,
"Sanctify them by the truth; your Word is truth."
John 8:44,
"...He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him."
Amen.
"John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Through him (the Word) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
John 1:14,
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling with us..."
John 17:17,
"Sanctify them by the truth; your Word is truth."
John 8:44,
"...He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.""
The delusion is this was written by a guy who had a very creative mind. This type of writing can be found in many pieces of literature doesn't mean it's really true. It would be like people 2000 years from now using Harry Potter books as their proof of the existence of good and evil.
so humans are generally weak-minded and fearful, and refuse to accept ultimate responsibility for their actions and environments... hahahah, this is not a new discovery!
there is no magic man in the sky judging us, why do people want to believe such nonsense?!
david, Jesus already knew about you when He said ...
But there are some of you who do not believe.
Not believing dictates not understanding.
2 Corinthians 4:4
Amen.
@HeavenSent: Your emperor has no clothes.
Rage! Rage against the dying of the light!
HeavenSent the definition of a con is people who are experts at scamming people to give up their money THINKING there is a benefit. So in the churches case and christianity it's the benefit of you will have everlasting life. What is so sad is so many weak minded people are still falling for it. They say the greats cons are the ones that last the longest and this one takes the cake!
Theo, I don't attend or belong to a church. I just read His truth in the Bible. As far as giving my money away. No Christian has ever taken money from me. I can't say the same thing about non-believers.
Amen.
SeanNJ, speaking of no clothes ... you non-believers are all going to be butt naked when you go back to God, who created all because you haven't sewn any lines.
Amen.
I typed too fast and the cancel reply does not work. That word was linens. Not lines.
Amen.
@HeavenSent: There is no god. When I die, I'll be burned in a cheap suit without shoes. I'm ok with that.
Why aren't you?
I don't think religion per se is human nature, but making up or believing a bunch of bs when the answer is unknown sure seems to be. Imagine the conversations that have been held over the years with children:
What's up there in the sky beyond the clouds? Oh, just some lights that revolve around the earth.
What would happen if I walked out toward the horizon? You would eventually fall off of the earth because it's flat.
What happens when people die? You go to either heaven or hell.
Who decides whether I go to heaven or hell? God
What controls the weather? God
What causes earthquakes? God
What causes volcanoes? God
Religion was behind many of these lies, and it hit the lottery with the afterlife. It is inevitable that if you make up lies about everything that is currently unknown, you will make up lies about that which is unknowable. And so it is with the soul and the afterlife. Science has proven the idiocy of most of religion's old, baseless lies, but it hasn't disproven and probably can't disprove the story of the afterlife. It may exist for all we know, but instead of looking at relgion's track record and seeing it for what it is, just a handful of yet-to-be-disproven stories and a long list of already disproven stories, including the biblical version of creationism, people see a group who says that they have the answers to the peoples' questions.
When we die we die. Gone, kaput, finito! And our body rots and stinks and the maggots have a free meal on our venerable carrion. The ego is gone to, so no problem there. That's life.
I think this instinct to believe in the after-life is driven by the fact that the human brain is incapable of imagining its own non-existence. We are compelled to reconcile our innate sense of immortality with the fact that in daily life we all experience the inevitable loss of loved ones. Our brain is wired to find an explanation that bridges the two things. The various religions and philosophies of the world are the predictable and logical outcome of this collective search.
JohnR, speak for yourself. I believe what Jesus tells us in the Bible. That we were there with Him in the beginning and if we love and follow His truth we will be there for eternity. We have 2 choices. What are those choices? To love and follow Jesus' truth and live, while on earth as it is in Heaven and dwell with Him for eternity, or, love and follow satan's lies, be spiritually dead while on this earth, die, go back to God, be on the wrong side of the divide (aka gulf), Day of the Lord, still don't love and follow Jesus, go to the eternal flames, blotted out. No eternity for anyone that doesn't love and follow Jesus.
Your choice. Choose wisely. Your soul depends on it.
Amen.
"JohnR, speak for yourself. I believe what Jesus tells us in the Bible. That we were there with Him in the beginning and if we love and follow His truth we will be there for eternity."
That is your personal belief but that is all it is, just because you feel that way doesn't make it true.
You "nay-sayers" have obviously never experienced the love of Christ, a miracle before your eyes or the deep love for others true Christians have. Yes, many wear the label but they do not live it inside of them; entwined in their souls. I have personally experienced two, very powerful events that cannot be explained in any other way and there is nobody that will make me believe that my experiences weren't real. I am not mentally ill or on drugs.
Diane
You "nay-sayers" have obviously never experienced the love of Christ, a miracle before your eyes or the deep love for others true Christians have. Yes, many wear the label but they do not live it inside of them; entwined in their souls. I have personally experienced two, very powerful events that cannot be explained in any other way and there is nobody that will make me believe that my experiences weren't real. I am not mentally ill or on drugs.
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When a person gets caught up in their delusion they cannot see past it nor understand how other people could not share in it. Muslims and people of all religions experience miracles in their delusions.
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Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations.
As the illness continues, psychotic symptoms develop:
• False beliefs or thoughts that are not based in reality (delusions)
• Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)
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And don't assume that some of us were never christians. Some of us broke free from the cult/religion.
"I have personally experienced two, very powerful events that cannot be explained in any other way and there is nobody that will make me believe that my experiences weren't real. I am not mentally ill or on drugs."
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You help prove my case....get help
You sound delusional.
Well then theres no point in debating anything with you since you have closed and made up your mind already.
Diane,
The fact that YOU can't explain the events does not mean that they can could be attributable only to god. There could be factors involved that you do not understand or that no human currently understands. People once saw volcanoes erupt and attributed it to divine power. I have no idea where the first subatomic article in the universe came from, but that doesn't necessarily mean that god created it.
I'm not saying that god doesn't exist. I'm just saying that we don't know for sure. To be more precise, I am aware of no evidence whatsoever that god exists. One thing is for sure: we have powerful minds and the ability to differentiate fact from fiction from the unknown. Those who claim that they KNOW that god performed a miracle and refuse to be convinced otherwise are in effect doubting what they believe to be a creation (i.e., their own mind) of the very god they worship. That's self contradictory.
Please understand that there are alternatives to religion other than devil worship. An ethical system is entirely possible without religion. The agnostics and atheists that I know are the most polite people that I know. We logically derive an ethical system from the objective reality in which we live. Religions are created by humans for humans and are entirely lacking logic and evidence.
Diane,
I experienced that euphoria also - even chills and tingles and rhapsody at thinking I was communicating with the divine. I discovered that it is a physical response caused by emotions. Those euphoric feelings are very seductive and addicting, however. There is genuine joy and awe in reality too.
> You "nay-sayers" have obviously never experienced the love of Christ, a miracle before your eyes or the deep love for others true Christians have. Yes, many wear the label but they do not live it inside of them; entwined in their souls. I have personally experienced two, very powerful events that cannot be explained in any other way and there is nobody that will make me believe that my experiences weren't real. I am not mentally ill or on drugs.
Allow me to show you how stupid your argument is.
You "nay-sayers" have obviously never experienced the love of Mohammad, a miracle before your eyes or the deep love for others true Muslims have. Yes, many wear the label but they do not live it inside of them; entwined in their souls. I have personally experienced two, very powerful events that cannot be explained in any other way and there is nobody that will make me believe that my experiences weren't real. I am not mentally ill or on drugs.
Your argument works just as well with a mutually exclusive religion. Therefore it's not a valid argument. 😀
The egocentrism of many Christians is beyond belief. Sometimes, it almost sounds like a form of insanity.
They are called outliers, not miracles
Humans incline toward using opium and other drugs too. Religion for one of Marx's masses; opium, etc. for another.
I can agree with this article, even as an Atheist. I wasn't always one. When I was young I absolutely had a belief that there was a god. It wasn't until later, when I started to think critically, that I began to challenge my own perceptions, and think with logic, research, and objectivity. When I came to the conclusion in my mind that none of that was truly possible, and that I had honestly never had a prayer answered, nor witnessed (or knew anyone who witnessed) miracles or anything supernatural, that made me turn away from belief in a God. While I still hold the principles of religious teachings as good general wisdom, and even honor certain holidays, I do not worship any god or gods nor do I believe they exist (if they did, I doubt they'd have stayed so quiet for over 2000 years lol). In any case, this study is for sure spot on, and anyone can take it how they will, however the study is misworded. People are not 'religious' in nature, they tend to believe in a 'higher power' by nature, and that belief allows them to accept religion when it is presented to them. There is a huge difference between a belief in a higher power, and the practice of rituals or dogmatic beliefs in conjunction with belief in a SPECIFIC deity (or deities) (such as Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, etc). In that manner, this study should have pointed out that people are 'spiritual' in nature, religious sort of implies you are born with the teachings of a particular faith, which we're not. We learn faith, and we learn religion.
Exactly my experience too. I was brought up in a religious household (Hinduism) and as a child I always believed (rather Feared god). But in my dulthood I tried to think about it logically and then could not make any sense of all these religions. Now as a mother I never exposed my 5 yr daughter to any religion or god and she does Not instinctively think there is a god! Only when she started going to school and heard her friends talk about god she asked me about it and I told her that I do not believe there is one but she is free to make up her mind when she grows up.
Very interesting. I grew up in a Unitarian Church (non denominational) where all beliefs, even Atheism were tolerated. While my parents never let me know what they truly believed, (they preferred for me to make up my own mind), they encouraged me to study all of it and go from there. I ended up as an Atheist after much contemplation, but thankfully hte Unitarian Universalists I grew up with made me an extremely tolerant and well balanced Atheist. I do not see other's faith as a threat or anything like that, that is, until they attempt to convince me of stuff I've already gone over... then I just think thats rude lol. To each their own.
Religion MIGHT be human nature.
But don't worry, we'll evolve past that some day =).
One can only hope.
It all still begs the question: *why* do humans seek meaning? I think it's a pretty hard thing to pin on natural selection.
Agreed! If people don't want to believe that God causes us to search for meaning, what is it then? Intelligence based? Intelligent people that can think spherically are superior then?
‘It all still begs the question: *why* do humans seek meaning? I think it's a pretty hard thing to pin on natural selection.’
Easy, for our species, for what it lacks in physical speed, strength & other attributes we tend to make up for with our brains. For our survival, we have to. It comes down to knowledge = power & to that end greater knowledge = greater likelihood of surviving relative to others whom you’re going to compete with over scarce resources (hence the NS).
Having meaning/purpose has been cited in some books I’ve read (god part of the brain, did man create god?) as being one of the aides in reducing the otherwise normal high anxiety that comes with knowing ones mortality & how fragile life is & all the other variables that prehistoric humanity couldn’t grasp, nor understand & consequently had to deal with a lot of uncaused/meaningless & untimely death.
Self-delusion (fallacious meaning) helps to reduce the anxiety which in turn frees up the body to worry less about self-induced stress & instead save energy for you guessed it, survival. Among other things, continuous high anxiety takes a toll on the immune response efficacy in combating pathogens, infections, making sounds judgments, etc. In short, it’s an evolved response to dealing w/ the anxiety that would have plagued humanity in its infancy.
Also bear in mind the effect that pattern-seeking has on survival. It is natural to seek patterns that might indicate the presence of something you don't necessarily see, because the unseen danger can kill you.
Example. Let's assume Bob and George are primitive men. Bob has in his brain an inclination to quickly assume that even imagined patterns indicate the presence of an unseen threat. George does not. Now, every time Bob thinks he sees such a pattern, he acts to protect himself. Whether he's right or wrong, he probably lives and goes on to have kids with the same inclination. George, on the other hand, probably dies as soon as he encounters an unseen danger that he assumed really wasn't there. George does not survive to have kids (or at least, not long enough to have as many as Bob does). Hence the tendency to assume that even imaginary patterns represent real, if unseen, things gets reinforced in the gene pool.
@civiloutside & Hitch: The ideas you guys put forward seem to contradict each other. We can agree that religion means you look for god in everything like civiloutside said, but religious people don't see god as dangerous necessarily... do they? If god patterns are danger then god isn't a pacifier, it's an inducer of anxieties. It would be like we want god because it makes us worry less, and seeing god in something makes us more adventurous... But is that true of religious people who strive for restraint and shun the foreign? OR Seeing god makes us worried and keeps us away from potentially dangerous unknown situations? Sounds like old testament god... idk. My brain's just enjoying the scenic walk you guys are providing today...
Well, if you look at the OT god, for example, he very much *is* a threat that must be appeased. And many of the other gods that people invent are not nice at all. But as Hitch points out, there's quite a lot of anxiety associated with believing there's something invisible and untouchable lurking out there that's gonna kill you if you take the wrong step. So it's almost inevitable to come up withthe idea that this invisible threat *can* be appeased. And maybe if it can be convinced not to kill you, why not take it a step further and believe it can even be convinced to protect you? That would certainly reduce your anxiety about the situation.
By the way, I'd like to point out that I'm not an anthropologist or a psychologist. These are just thought that seem plausible to me. I'm not saying that this is absolutely the mechanism that created the religious impulse, just that it seems like an explanation that demonstrates why it is a least possible that evolutionary pressures could have given rise to it.
So.. which religion is the right religion to follow? Who is the true God? How do you know for sure?
The christian god is the correct one because you are going to hell if you don't and you don't want to be wrong. PLAY THE ODDS
"MINE is the only right religion, and I'm willing to go to war over it", quoted the human being.
Everyone is going to someone else's he ll
God's Love is unconditional..... no conjunctions involved, no prerequistes. Oh, except you have to accept what's his name?
Thor is the one true God! Bow before mighty Thor!!!
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away.
2 Timothy 3:1-5
Amen.
True Chrisitainty is not about religion (which religion to I follow?). You believe the God of the Bible. You attend a Bible believing church that puts faith into practice – displaying good works and manifesting the spiritual gifts that Paul wrote about. Those churches come in many denominations, both Catholic and protestant. Sadly, you will also find many churches that do not teach the Bible. As some posters have said, we cannot chose what we want to believe and what we want to dismiss and unlikely or uncomfortable. When you find the right church for you, you will recognize that the truth is being taught and you will cherish the privilege of fellowship with other believers whose lives of service and commitment to Christ will amaze and inspire you.
The brainwashing of children? Really? I have yet to see a child forced to attend my church, in fact many of them are excited to attend. Many choose to be baptised at a young age when they choose to give their life to Christ, a very personal choice that is not forced by parents.
I am not saying that there aren't children forced to attend church, but I have yet to see any such thing. And by the same token atheists brain wash their children against religion as well so it is a two way street.
sadiesadie
The brainwashing of children? Really? I have yet to see a child forced to attend my church, in fact many of them are excited to attend. Many choose to be baptised at a young age when they choose to give their life to Christ, a very personal choice that is not forced by parents.
I am not saying that there aren't children forced to attend church, but I have yet to see any such thing. And by the same token atheists brain wash their children against religion as well so it is a two way street.
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My bad, I guess the toddlers etc stay home if they want. It is a given by the time the children are teens the hardwiring is alreayd done. What I am talking about is the cycle repeated...unless they break it. Example would be me, I was not raised by atheists and in fact I am not one.
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I broke the cycle. And more and more are breaking the cycle of ignorance and fear. Jesus now sits on the same shelf as Santa.
The brainwashing of children... Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many are subjected to "saying grace" before a meal? Seeing their neighbors going to Church on Sunday? (in the West, that is...) The yearly so-called "festivities" at christmas-time and easter? A national day of prayer or hearing on the news about a "prayer breakfast" at the White House? How many have been told "God will punish you if..." ??
Religion is nothing but an infantile security blanket that gives intellectually lazy people an easy cop-out... everything that happens is god-swill...
You never saw a child forced to attend church? Really, I mean, REALLY? I was drug to church every Sunday until I moved out of the house to go to college. At around age 13, I realized what hogwash the church and my parents were peddling. I've never changed my mind after 50+ years.
every child is initially forced to attend religious ceremonies which gradually brainwash them into embracing a fantasy of a magical person in the sky (usually male) who offers them eternal life, thereby easing the greatest human fear: the fear of dying
"intellectually lazy people"
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I liek this! lol
You're kidding, right??!!
Children don't really have a choice. If their parents are going to church, the kids are getting dragged there whether they want to or not. While there, they are taught sanitized versions of Bible stories and encouraged to sing upbeat songs about them (thus giving them happy feelings about the events that insulate them against the disgust they might otherwise feel when they eventually learn the full versions). They are awash with parental approval for being able to recite these stories and sing these songs, and all the while the chance to go sit in the grownup room is held out as a potential reward for demonstrating progress in internalizing the lessons.
My own Baptism at 13 was only and entirely about wanting to please my parents. I submit that a good deal of that happy glow you see on the faces of many children "giving their life to Jesus," has it's roots more strongly embedded in knowing they are making Mom and Dad immensely happy and proud of them than in any genuine spiritual experience.
' And by the same token atheists brain wash their children against religion as well so it is a two way street'
not introducing them to something is hardly brainwashing.
I'm guessing you weren't brought up catholic.
@sadiesadie
You said: "The brainwashing of children? Really? I have yet to see a child forced to attend my church, in fact many of them are excited to attend. Many choose to be baptised at a young age when they choose to give their life to Christ, a very personal choice that is not forced by parents.
I am not saying that there aren't children forced to attend church, but I have yet to see any such thing. And by the same token atheists brain wash their children against religion as well so it is a two way street."
All children are born atheist. Parents begin to program the silly into them, almost from birth.
Children, for the most part, want to please their parents. They want ma and pa to smile. They will choose to be baptized, because it makes their parents, their pastor, and the other members happy. Your augment is crap.
My daughter is an atheist. I never sent her to atheist camp, or subjected her to weekly indoctrination. We did have conversations about belief in a god. I encouraged her love of science, math and music.
Cheers!
And by the same token atheists brain wash their children against religion as well so it is a two way street.
-–
No. I ask my children to ask questions and not to accept without understanding. If they want to go to church, get baptised/confirmed, whatever then I would absolutely support it. I definitely don't want to influence my kids on such a personal question and I totally support the right of people to worship in the way that they wish as long as they keep it private.
Artist, you, Reality and the rest of your chums on this site refuse to learn any of the terminology in the Bible. To FEAR THE LORD means the beginning of learning His wisdom.
I know I've responded to this post of your's many times in past articles. I believe you folks have a reason to be on this site and it isn't by chance to just blog with folks. There is more to your agendas than you will ever admit.
Amen.
> Artist, you, Reality and the rest of your chums on this site refuse to learn any of the terminology in the Bible. To FEAR THE LORD means the beginning of learning His wisdom.
So you have to believe in God to be able to believe in God's wisdom. Good job there Einstein.
Bobinator, your forgot one thing...you also have be afraid of this God too.
Isaac Asimov's remark about the infantilism of pseudoscience is just as applicable to religion:
"Inspect every piece of pseudoscience and you will find a security blanket, a thumb to suck, a skirt to hold."
The key to survival for any cult/religion is the children. Without the brainwashing and hardwiring of the children, religion would be reduced to a nominal size. Even as children we started to get the hint that perhaps the Easter Bunny and Santa do not exist. Of course fear was never used to make you believe in them. What do we hear all day on this blog from the delusional? "I would rather believe than not believe and go to hell." "You will perish for eternity if you do not believe" "You are going to hell unless you accept".
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When you remove fear and apply common sense, it makes the decision much easier.
Artist, there are many scriptures pertaining to fools refusing to learn His wisdom
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
Amen.
> He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Why should we believe the Bible Heavensent?
Thank you for sharing this prwfoeul, challenging message . I am challenged once again to forget those things which are behind and press on towards those things that are ahead of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus . Thank You for Your grace Father that enables us to do this .
Humans are inclined to invent and worship gods. Think of all the gods that man has worshiped throughout history. The odd part, is that humans are not inclined toward any one god.
One of the most compelling reasons for rejecting god, is the fact that there are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps He does not exist.
Why would the Christian god leave room for confusion? If He exists, wouldn't He want everyone to know He exists and is the one true god?
1 Timothy 2: 3 – 5 says the Christian god does desire this:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1. If the Christian God existed, this fact would be obvious.
So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god.
2. The Christian God's existence is not, obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists.
3. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
Cheers!
David, statements of absolutes roll off the back of the faithful like water off a duck's back. I'd humbly suggest a more tactful line of reasoning.
If we look at religion today, we have many different faiths. For example, we have Islam and Christians, Mormons and Hindus, Buddists and Druids. Each has their own belief structure and each rely on what we'd call faith.
But how good is faith? Can we look at faith, examine it and evaluate to see what it does?
Let's take a look at Christianity and Islam. Both religions have different beliefs. Both have devout members that claim their faith is true. They both have miracles and holy sites. They both have people having visions and messages from God that reinforce their belief. In fact any claim one makes, the other has the same claim!
But you know what the problem is? Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive. That is to say, if Islam is correct, then Christianity cannot be. If Christianity is correct, then Islam cannot be.
So, we have two sets of people and we know for sure, one set of people is wrong. If faith can lead you to be wrong, you cannot rely on it for finding the truth.
Now, let's expand this concept. What if it's not just 2 religions, what about the thousands of religions that have existed through time, what about the thousands of variations on major religions. These are all based on faith too.
So what is the best case scenario for faith. The best case is that one religion is right and thousands of religions are wrong.
Faith is not a reasonable why to know anything, this isn't an opinion, but what reality demonstrates to us.
So why do you believe?
God created humans with free will. He wants us to worship, serve, and love Him because it is our own choice, because we want to, not because we are resigned to do the obvious by the facts. He doesn't want us to say, "Oh well, I guess I have to serve God, because all the facts point to His existence." Love, ultimately, is a choice.
Jesus did not come to Earth to start a religion; He came to restore a relationship which was lost with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. I know you don't believe this, and I know you will most likely attack me as naive, delusional, and/or an idiot, but I am standing up for what I believe, and I am so thankful that I live in a country where we can express our opinions freely.
Quick note: Humans WERE inclined to worship just one God, who went by different names (Shang Ti, Hananmin, Pathian, Gui'Sha, Y'wa, YHWH, Viracocha, etc) in different cultures (ancient China, ancient Korea, ancient India, etc), but thanks to the mistakes of some missionaries (e.g. refusing to believe that Shang Ti could also be the same God as the western missionaries, and thus making new names like Tien Ju or Tien Laoye and therefore not winning over many converts to Christianity, whereas missionaries to Korea kept Hananmin and told them about His son, Jesus...now Korea has tons of Christians) and also to the mistakes of leaders of the people (like Pachacuti who re-discovered Viracocha, yet decided to only keep that knowledge to himself and the "upper class", and let the "lower class" keep worshiping the sun god), the one TRUE God got replaced by countless others. If humans are not inclined to any one God, then how come nearly every people group has a legend of one God above all of their other gods...and that legend is far more ancient then their belief in their other gods? Check out the book "Eternity in Their Hearts" and do some research on the stuff it talks about and make sure it's all true...and let me know what you think.
> God created humans with free will.
Then your God by definition can't be omnipotent.
> and let me know what you think.
I think paragraphs and proper sentence structure would help.
> If humans are not inclined to any one God, then how come nearly every people group has a legend of one God above all of their other gods...and that legend is far more ancient then their belief in their other gods?
Who wants to worship a god that isn't as powerful as another God. Try thinking your questions through.
Interested Person: Very interesting comment!
Bobinator: I don't follow your logic. How does the fact that God created humans with free will render him non-omnipotent? Just because God has power doesn't mean He has to exercise it. Having ultimate power and using ultimate power are two different things. God chose to give us free will, and He chooses to allow us to exercise it. Why? I don't know, ask Him!
My bad for not putting my statement in correct sentence structure and paragraphs.. though I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with this entire debate.
"Who wants to worship a god that isn't as powerful as another God."
I'm not sure... who would? Maybe people that forgot about their "supreme God.. the Creator of everything?" And so, being led astray by evil, they turned to worshiping other gods and inventing new religions, like Buddhism.
> I don't follow your logic. How does the fact that God created humans with free will render him non-omnipotent? Just because God has power doesn't mean He has to exercise it. Having ultimate power and using ultimate power are two different things. God chose to give us free will, and He chooses to allow us to exercise it. Why? I don't know, ask Him!
Let's take you through it.
A) If God is all powerful, God is by definition omniscient, that is to say, all knowing.
B) God creates the universe with certain laws.
C) God creates everything about man, knowing how man will act and what man will do.
Given these, God creates you, knows what you will do and you are unable to deviate from the path God has set for you by his own design. You therefore cannot make a choice, therefore you do not have free will.
> I'm not sure... who would? Maybe people that forgot about their "supreme God.. the Creator of everything?" And so, being led astray by evil, they turned to worshiping other gods and inventing new religions, like Buddhism.
Let's try to stay on your question. You asked "Why do people come to the conclusion of one powerful God." I answered that no one would want to think of their God as lesser. That's a valid reason. If someone worships a lesser God and a better one comes along, would they not switch?
@Jason – You have to provide some evidence that your god exists before you can posit any knowledge of his self-restrained omnipotence…or any other trait. And any evidence for Jesus, himself, is shaky at best….I mean a guy on whom the religion is based…not this son of god nonsense. There is far more evidence for the historical basis for the King Arthur legend…so should we believe in the Lady of the Lake?
At least for me, my attacks are not personal; they are attacks on your position and assertions. There is no need to make it personal if you don’t.
@Interested Person – it is only the luxury of hindsight which can redefine all those gods you list and say, “really they were all worshiping the same thing”. They would have disagreed vehemently with you had you the opportunity to ask them. What you assert as, “the one true god” is just another redefinition of our attempt to explain the unknown. “If humans are not inclined to any one God, then how come nearly every people group has a legend of one God above all of their other gods...and that legend is far more ancient then their belief in their other gods?” Because we anthropomorphize by nature in order to relate things to the tangible and the material. We see power structure in society so we assume that there must be powers above us and one to rule over all others. But you use the word ‘legend’ a couple of times so really that should be the end of the story.
@Interested Person: That's just as good a hypothesis as any. Humans were worshipping the same god because basically we all have the "god" concept in every society. However, by that standard how can any one god be the "one TRUE god"? How would you possibly be able to tell the true one from the fake ones? In that situation you would have to conclude that either they are all true because we all have gods, or none of them are true because to discount one means you have to discount every one. Interesting concept though.
@The Bobinator
I have read many of your comments and respect your ideas. You are totally correct about free will. If god is omniscient, if the future can be known, then everything is predetermined. Free will is an illusion. Also, if god has a plan for each of us, free will does not exist. Any biblical predictions would depend on events and human actions, being predetermined.
Believers would like belief and faith to be equal to actual evidence. As you point out, they are not. Faith can lead you down a totally erroneous path. Faith without evidence is worthless and dangerous.
Cheers!
@Jason
You said, "God created humans with free will. He wants us to worship, serve, and love Him because it is our own choice, because we want to, not because we are resigned to do the obvious by the facts. He doesn't want us to say, "Oh well, I guess I have to serve God, because all the facts point to His existence." Love, ultimately, is a choice."
So, your argument is that god must exist, because there is no evidence for His existence? Then so must fairies, elves and Santa Claus. A lack of evidence is apparently, the new standard for a things existence?
You said, "Jesus did not come to Earth to start a religion; He came to restore a relationship which was lost with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. I know you don't believe this, and I know you will most likely attack me as naive, delusional, and/or an idiot, but I am standing up for what I believe, and I am so thankful that I live in a country where we can express our opinions freely."
Having read the New Testament, I have come to the conclusion that it was written to "prove" Jesus was the Messiah and to establish the Christian Religion.
Original sin, never happened. Adam and Eve were a myth. The diversity of life on this planet is the product of evolution. Since this is true, then there was no Adam and Eve. If there was no Adam and Eve, then there was no original sin. If there was no original sin, then there was no need of a redeemer. If there was no redeemer, then why does the Christian religion exist?
You have the right to express your opinion. It is unfortunate, that you opinion is silly.
Cheers!
Actually, I think this instinct is driven by the fact that the human brain is incapable of imagining its own non-existence. We are compelled to reconcile our innate sense of immortality with the fact that in daily life we all experience the inevitable loss of loved ones. We are wired to find an explanation that bridges these two very fundamental aspects of our lives. The various religions and philosophies of the world are the predictable and logical outcome of this search.
Well aren't you the theologian? You just take whatever out of the Bible and throw it into any context or situation you want to make a point? That passage is about praying for people such as Kings and leaders and such. Just because God desires all men to know Him doesn't mean they do. You being an example. His desire might be that but we have a choice and He will not interfere with that otherwise its not a "free will". As for Adam and Eve not existing, where is your proof? Dna testing shows we all come from a common ancestor. You cant dispute that. You have choosen to believe that they didnt exist. You dont know and neither do I. You cant argue sin though. Look around you? People arent always good. They are infected with something. Original sin is like a me writing a perfect paper then it gets a smuge on it. I copy it (because we are all Dna copies of each other so to speak) that smuge still exists no matter how many copies i make. That my friend is original sin. Its in our dna we tend to disown and miss the mark of God. So God had to send us another perfect copy hence Christ Jesus who covers us. So God sees His perfect copy and not our smudge. People dont sin because they are evil. People are evil cause they sin. They sin against God and others and we from their sins call them evil. Face it your sin, I sin we all sin. Be it to God or others. You said you've read the New Testament Congrats. Now go read the Old. Lots of good stuff in there. As far as this article goes reguardless of what people believe, we all desire more. We just get to blinded by our own accomplishments and feats that we neglect God. We think science and our knowledge will answer it all. Well try it. Good luck. We cant even take care of our planet and yet some believe we can save ourselves? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Good one.
@Bobinator:
You have flawed logic. All power is not the same as all knowing. Yes we say God is all knowing doesnt change free will. You say how then can we have free will if God knows the paths we all take and therefore it must be predetermined. God knows what we will choose to do but we are still choosing. God's foreknowledge doesnt affect us choosing. It is our choosings that affect the outcomes. God just merely sees it. Its still our choice. God gives us choice. So explain to me how God knowing what you are going to do affects your choice?
Because The Christian God; The TRUE GOD has given man the free will to choose together with a deep sense of good and evil .
Therein lies mans culpability, choosing right over wrong, Truth over falsehood.
I RATHER LIVE BELIEVING IN GOD AND IF HE DOES NOT EXIST I WOULD HAVE STILL LIVED A FULL AND FRUITFUL LIFE. HOWEVER IF HE DOES EXIST GOD HELP THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM, REJECT HIM AND DRAG OTHERS DOWN WITH THEM....
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Isn't this talking in circles? How can one say that they forget about "God", because they are so caught-up with Worldly things. The sins of man, that we are so desparately seeking forgiveness? I make clear choices to keep myself out of these worldly things, and I'm only out for taking care of my corner of this world, and to live happily until the day I die. I don't seek "God" as much as others do, who is to say whether I should or should not? To say that I am always being watched by a supernatural being, violates my sense of being. My capabilities are my own, I am only capable of sin, because sin was invented by "God". I am using the word "God" in quotes to indicate topic, and disregard topic for the purpose of demonstration, which would take several more words to explain. There is no time to explain how I believe at several levels, and I think anyone would find the same problem when they take any kind of scientific approach. "God" makes it easier to explain, and thus we believe it. The prophets had time. The prophets had loads of time to put it in writing. Words that you could take at face-value or totally disregard, because you have choice. The only way that "God" gives me freewill, is that he gives me time to explain, because I use his name to cut myself short. To me, as an agnostic, it is convenient.
Odd – because I think the proclivity toward believing in gods is, in fact, evidence for God.
@Pastor Jonathan – "God knows what we will choose to do but we are still choosing. God's foreknowledge doesnt affect us choosing. It is our choosings that affect the outcomes. God just merely sees it. Its still our choice. God gives us choice. So explain to me how God knowing what you are going to do affects your choice?"
Not trying to speak for Bobinator, but omniscience is not only knowing what will happen beforehand, but also requires this knowledge be infallible. By analogy, if you come to a fork in the road, God knows before hand which path you will take. Because His knowledge is infallible, by definition you must take the path God already knew you would take. If you really could take either path, then God's knowledge is limited and not infallible. That we don't know we must take the path God already knows we will ultimately take is actually quite irrelevant. Infallible omniscience of human events cannot coexist with human free will.
Furthermore, add to this an interventionist God which skews the "free will" scale. As most theologies depend on a "free will" choice of some faith-based proposition, those individuals having been impacted by direct intervention (e.g. Thomas touching the holes) are not required to make the same "free will" leap of faith choice required of those without having benefited from a direct intervention.
David, you missed this scripture.
"For the wicked [man without God] boasts of his heart's desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts."
Psalms 10:3
Amen.
> Furthermore, add to this an interventionist God which skews the "free will" scale. As most theologies depend on a "free will" choice of some faith-based proposition, those individuals having been impacted by direct intervention (e.g. Thomas touching the holes) are not required to make the same "free will" leap of faith choice required of those without having benefited from a direct intervention.
Thank you Q you're spot on. Let me go one step further however.
Let's take a look at the creation story. God creates the garden, the serpent and the tree of knowledge. He also creates Adam and Eve with flaws, (for Adam isn't perfect like God.). God specifically knows that Eve's gullibility, a quality God chooses to give her, will lead to the deception of the snake and lead to original sin.
So, how can God possibly blame Eve? It's like sharpening a knife, then blaming the knife when you cut yourself because it's so sharp? Doesn't this also mean that God was the archetect for sin in the world?
Care to comment Pastor?
"For the wicked [man without God] boasts of his heart's desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts."
It's sad that you're incapable for seeing this for what it is Heavensent.
David Johnson, God does not cause confusion. That's satan's domain. The reason you are confused about Jesus' truth about this life and the hereafter is because you love and follow satan's lies. Come out of the darkness, son.
Amen.
> David Johnson, God does not cause confusion. That's satan's domain. The reason you are confused about Jesus' truth about this life and the hereafter is because you love and follow satan's lies. Come out of the darkness, son.
I don't understand. Is Satan more powerful then God? If not, how can Satan change God's plan of wanting us all to be saved?
Out of curiosity... Prior to eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve had to knowledge of good and evil, right? So... At the time they decided to commit the "evil" act of disobedience, they had no way to know that it was evil. How is it fair to condemn them (and all of their descendants) for a decision when they were denied the ability to understand the decision in the first place?
I would love to read this study, and see how it was conducted. One of the researchers noted: "it isn't just a quirky interest of a few, it's basic human nature." It could also be said that soicalogically it is basic human nature to pass down what we have learned to our children. Children are indoctrinated into religion from birth. He also noted: "children in particular found it very easy to think in religious ways." Would the propensity to have a religious belief be as strong if it weren't continually propogated, or would it come about naturally? What of a study of involving children of atheistic parents? Would they be inclined to show religiosity as part of their human nature? Children believe in monsters in the closet they are told do not exist; it would be easy for them to be believe in something are are told to believe in, especially with all the reinforcement of going to church, sunday school, ritual, holidays. Oftentimes, people just WANT to believe, because of the promises religion "offers."
I think this study is showing existing results in societies worldwide, but I think we have to examine the causes as well. The questions of "why" people have religious tendancies can be answered.
We also have natural tendencies to see faces in clouds and patterns in provably random patterns of colored tiles.
Exactly, I was just going to point that out. Our brains seek out patterns in anything and everything to make sense of it.
There's a book "The Magic Years", written in the 70s by a child psychoanalyst, Selma Fraiberg, which gives an excellent look into the workings of the mind of a child and the magical thinking abounding therein. It seems that some never get past that magical thinking.
Forays into a fantasy world can be a comfort and are enjoyable. Declaring that it is reality, and insisting that everyone else do the same, sure gets us into trouble.
...and to see the virgin mary in a piece of Frech toast and then with equal selfless religious fervor put it up for sale on Ebay! Without the modern human brain, there is nothing on this earth that can conjure up a god.
Bottom-line, man will believe what he WANTS to believe ... no matter how preposterous.
My potato chip looks like Cthulhu.
People are so busy attempting to explain everything that they have no time to just be and not worry about it.
"We also have natural tendencies to see faces in clouds and patterns in provably random patterns of colored tiles." Exactly. Pareidolia and Apophenia are nothing new.
"Children in particular found it very easy to think in religious ways," such as believing in God's omniscience, said Trigg.
..............
There is a lesson in this.
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Also adults stop believing in Santa but continue to believe in a myth. At some point the imagination of a child turns into a mental illness. Very sad indeed.
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Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations.
As the illness continues, psychotic symptoms develop:
• False beliefs or thoughts that are not based in reality (delusions)
• Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)
So your narrow-minded view of religious belief and your ability to quote a summary of what a psychological disorder consists of somehow makes you correct? You're seriously misguided and completely ignorant about religious belief. The belief in God and a spiritual sense is not a lack of ability to, as you quoted, "tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations." Not by a long shot. Get over yourself and stop being so hateful.
Of course...rational description of genunine afflictions and their traits as related to to religious belief is...........hate. Oh brother. Jumping to an explaination which itself defys explaination is childish. At a certain point theists just decide to stop thinking.
@Youpeopl Do you see the irony in your retort? You provide no evidence for why the OP is wrong; only your clearly emotional and negative reaction. You did not evaluate his claim on merits, but on emotion, so you have no point.
Jeff for the win!
YouPeopl
So your narrow-minded view of religious belief and your ability to quote a summary of what a psychological disorder consists of somehow makes you correct? You're seriously misguided and completely ignorant about religious belief. The belief in God and a spiritual sense is not a lack of ability to, as you quoted, "tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations." Not by a long shot. Get over yourself and stop being so hateful.
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One man says he talks to invisible people...he is deemed insane. Another man says he talks to a god in the sky and he is religious. However that still doesn't change that he talks to an invisible god in the sky. They both need professional help. Inf act it appears a large portion of our society needs professional help.
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When majority of the population is delusional; a rational person has to accomidate the illness.
"At a certain point theists just decide to stop thinking." I think it's more likely that they have no choice in the matter since critical thinking about religiion will at some point hit a mental event horizon where you can go no further and have to just accept things based on faith or let them go. They use the complexity of the universe as the proof of a creator but then forget that a creator like that must also be complex which would by the former logic require another creator to create the complexity. At that point most theists simply shut down and go into autopilot faith mode – "Does not compute, must believe in something, must be more to life than this, I must be important, I am not a speck of dust on a speck of dust within a billion specks of dust!! Does not compute!"
Jeff
@Youpeopl Do you see the irony in your retort? You provide no evidence for why the OP is wrong; only your clearly emotional and negative reaction. You did not evaluate his claim on merits, but on emotion, so you have no point.
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A nerve is hit when the pattern is revealed
@ScottK – "mental event horizon". Love that.
Mind of I use it? 🙂
@ScottK: We've all experienced that sense from believers, doesn't that to some extent corroborate the study's findings. That it is an ingrained need beyond logical reach?
"stop being so hateful." Yeah, it's cruel of you not to reinforce his delusions. Would it hurt you to pretend he's right so he will be happy?
Why should we believe in God? "He did miracles!" Cool, can I see one? "No, He doesn't do them any more." Can you prove He ever did them? "Yes, there's a two thousand-year-old book." So you CAN'T prove the miracles? "No, we just have faith." Go away, you are insane.
Scott – take a look at what science has put forth as to how the universe was created. None actually answer the impossible question of existence. Your argument that someone just as complex must of created God and so on, is the same as the idea of multiverses and universes within universes. At somepoint there is an original, at some point something created that one. Sure you may answer how this universe was created, but you haven't answered how existence was created.
Also, everyone else's response to youpeopl is apparently the product of poor literacy. Schizophreny by the OP's definition means a person can not think logically. Religious people can still think logically. I highly doubt the OP is an accredited psychologist, so his application of the mental disorder is quite expectedly used incorrectly.
Also a more credible summarization of schizophrenia:
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction.
A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. Social withdrawal, sloppiness of dress and hygiene, and loss of motivation and judgement are all common in schizophrenia. There is often an observable pattern of emotional difficulty, for example lack of responsiveness. Impairment in social cognition is associated with schizophrenia, as are symptoms of paranoia; social isolation commonly occurs. In one uncommon subtype, the person may be largely mute, remain motionless in bizarre postures, or exhibit purposeless agitation, all signs of catatonia.
"None actually answer the impossible question of existence"
-–
Do you have any proof at all that the question of existence is impossible? I don't think so. While I fully agree that we are not there yet we are a lot further along in understanding and continuously moving fast even though many "people of faith" and religious authorities continuously try to stop this process. With much less success these days.
One can define any proof of existence as infinite regress or vicious circularity. In order to prove existence one most prove existence or a prior existence.
Examples
Who/what created the universe? God did. Well who created God? Super-God. And Super-God? Super Super-God. etc.
Who/what created the universe? Another universe. Well what created that universe? Another universe. etc.
At some point you will ignore the question (atheism), or say there's something that breaks everything our minds can imagine (theists).
Brilliant.
Actually science is actively addressing the question of existence right now. We have traced the evolution universe as we understand it back ~14 billion years. We know much (and have much to learn) about its structure. We have hints of other dimensions, and have begun to speculate (with mathematical support) on what may have come before. The emerging picture of a “multi-verse” has fascinating implications. No where in this picture is anything resembling an anthropomorphic god that has the slightest interest in humanity. We could be wiped out at any moment by a not so cosmic burp, and the universe wouldn’t notice.
Artist, narcissism is a mental disorder too and all you non-believers wreak of it.
Amen.
neoritter, I wonder what could have stimulated the imagination to search for said evidence? LOL
Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." Surely, you don't take Genesis 2:7 seriously? Do you?
Psalm 8:8: ". . . whatsoever passeth through the PATHS OF THE SEAS." How did David (the writer of Psalms) know, over 2,000 years ago, there were "paths in the seas"? David probably never even saw an ocean!
Ecclesiastes 1:7: "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the water cycle of condensation and evaporation in 1000 B.C.?
Job 38:19: "Where is THE WAY where light dwelleth?" How come Job didn't say where is THE PLACE where light dwelleth? Because light is always moving. How did Job know something in 1500 B.C. ?
Ecclesiastes 1:6: "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again ACCORDING TO HIS CIRCUITS." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the wind traveled within circuits? How did he know with their so-called limited knowledge thousands of years ago?
Leviticus 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood. What Moses wrote in 1490 B.C. written thousands of years ago, by men with such limited knowledge?
Amen.
rigel – you completely missed the point. But thanks for playing.
HeavenSent – I have no clue the point you're trying to make in relation to anything I've said.
But to your commentaries on some of those Bible quotes. Throughout the period of time that the Psalms were created the Israelites had access to the sea. It is pretty ignorant to think David had never seen any large body of water.
Also Job's reading there is asking where the way is to the light. He's asking how he (himself) get's to the light.
neoritter, and science has never answered the simple question posted to them years ago. "Where did it all begin"?
Amen.
"neoritter, and science has never answered the simple question posted to them years ago. "Where did it all begin"?"
They are leaning to the big bang theory but the reality is it doesn't matter. The problem with Christians is if you say it's a God then how did your God come into existence. Obviously, you are going to say just because he was there....the same can be said about the big bang theory too. At least with the big bang theory they can logically walk you through proving their theory, you cannot do that with your God. NO Christian has yet to show proof of God's existence.
I don't know how they can conclude it comes naturally when their sample group is tainted. I mean, if they're talking to adults, the majority of these people are religious. Of course those people think it's natural.
Honestly, I don't think an unbiased study is possible, even if a child was brought up in a secular home, society's pressures would expose him/her to things that might alter their way of looking at things.
My thoughts exactly. One can not simply look at the results of a study, the study itself needs to be examined on how it was conducted.
Well, this is a summarized paper, which looks at different published papers and seeks to unify them under a single explanation.
So this paper isn't flawed because of the nature of people, the underlying studies it bases it's opinion are. 😀
The article mentions talking to children, so I think it's safe to assume children were included in the study.
Honestly, I believe that it is a learned phobia – unless you describe the voice in your head that most people hear as they are trying to work things out, or type a sentence on a keyboard. It may also be a protective mechanism to imagine something powerful enough to offer you some kind of spiritual strength when you face great danger – but I would equate that more to running for cover, than to elevate it to the mysticism of religious conviction.
This study isn't an "opinion" based on underlying studies – meta analyses like this are not opinion pieces. Rather, the authors used rigorous statistical techniques to systematically examine many, many studies for common trends. Also, to your point of adults being religious – yes, it's true that this could be a confound. However, it is unlikely this study simply asked people whether they though religion came naturally to them. Like anything in science, the authors found a common theme among people – seeking to explain worldly events in terms of an unseen, all-powerful agent or agents. This seems particularly powerful in children, who are less inclined to understand religion, nor do they simply blindly follow what their parent's/peers tell them. Rather, what they generally do is tend to assume that if an event occurs, someone must have caused it – it is this tendency to believe that events MUST have causes that originated from some sentient source that the study refers to as our innate religiosity.
"When one examines all the facts, belief in God actually makes much more scientific sense." Said well know scientist formerly an athiest, you know the one who mapped the human genome for the first time. I think he might be on to something.
> "When one examines all the facts, belief in God actually makes much more scientific sense." Said well know scientist formerly an athiest, you know the one who mapped the human genome for the first time. I think he might be on to something.
Yes, because the concept of something that can break scientific laws on a whim makes so much more sense then simply not knowing how they could have occured.
Watch the movie "Religulous" and see how he brings up points that contradict religion to religious people and how they react. Also how they are programmed from a young age to brainwash these ideas into kids heads. Then when those kids grow up they participate in a suvey like this with 'surprising' results such as this kind of article.
Being religious and being mentally delusional are almost the exact same thing, except one is used to assist in mainting a coherent lifestyle while the other blows it up. Both are signs of an unhelathy mind which requires the ability to defer responsibility to something else.
@The Bobinator – I break the laws of physics everyday with my free will.
@Johnny Cage – If you're making your decision about religion and the existance of God or gods based off of a comedy movie there's no hope for you. It's a heavily biased piece.
exactly it, you cant have an unbiased result when the studied were poisoned at birth.
Everything is from a point of reference. Where is neutral? It comes naturally after a short while to assume that apples fall down out of trees rather than up. Thus gravity is natural and instinctive. What the study reveals is that a good idea is accepted from generation to generation regardless of contrary indoctrinations.
Johnny Cage, I suspect BM was stoned when he directed that movie. Therefore, you are worshipping a stoner.
Amen.
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Through the ages great minds have come to believe in the True Trinitarian God.
To mention a few, Saints Paul, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Athanasius of Alexandria, Saints Teresa of Ávila, Catherine of Siena and Thérèse de Lisieux
Most recently we have John Henry Newman, G. K. Chesterton, Mortimer Jerome Adler; converted to Catholicism in 2000, Alice von Hildebrand, Malcolm Muggeridge- atheist, just to mention a few.
"Our Hearts are Restless Until They Rest in You" – From the Confessions – Saint Augustine of Hippo
Great are you, O Lord, and exceedingly worthy of praise; your power is immense, and your wisdom beyond reckoning. And so we men, who are a due part of your creation, long to praise you – we also carry our mortality about with us, carry the evidence of our sin and with it the proof that you thwart the proud. You arouse us so that praising you may bring us joy, because you have made us and drawn us to yourself, and our heart is unquiet until it rests in you.
Grant me to know and understand, Lord, which comes first. To call upon you or to praise you? To know you or to call upon you? Must we know you before we can call upon you? Anyone who invokes what is still unknown may be making a mistake. Or should you be invoked first, so that we may then come to know you? But how can people call upon someone in whom they do not yet believe? And how can they believe without a preacher?
But scripture tells us that those who seek the Lord will praise him, for as they seek they find him, and on finding him they will praise him. Let me seek you then, Lord, even while I am calling upon you, and call upon you even as I believe in you; for to us you have indeed been preached. My faith calls upon you, Lord, this faith which is your gift to me, which you have breathed into me through the humanity of your Son and the ministry of your preacher.
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"Our Hearts are Restless Until They Rest in You" – From the Confessions – Saint Augustine of Hippo
Great are you, O Lord, and exceedingly worthy of praise; your power is immense, and your wisdom beyond reckoning. And so we men, who are a due part of your creation, long to praise you – we also carry our mortality about with us, carry the evidence of our sin and with it the proof that you thwart the proud. You arouse us so that praising you may bring us joy, because you have made us and drawn us to yourself, and our heart is unquiet until it rests in you.
Grant me to know and understand, Lord, which comes first. To call upon you or to praise you? To know you or to call upon you? Must we know you before we can call upon you? Anyone who invokes what is still unknown may be making a mistake. Or should you be invoked first, so that we may then come to know you? But how can people call upon someone in whom they do not yet believe? And how can they believe without a preacher?
But scripture tells us that those who seek the Lord will praise him, for as they seek they find him, and on finding him they will praise him. Let me seek you then, Lord, even while I am calling upon you, and call upon you even as I believe in you; for to us you have indeed been preached. My faith calls upon you, Lord, this faith which is your gift to me, which you have breathed into me through the humanity of your Son and the ministry of your preacher.
@ J. Cage "Being religious and being mentally delusional are almost the exact same thing, except one is used to assist in mainting a coherent lifestyle while the other blows it up. Both are signs of an unhelathy mind which requires the ability to defer responsibility to something else."
I am not sure why all the anit-god folk assume that faith in God is mindless. Yes. there are red-neck theists just as there are red-neck atheists, but that ignores the segment of both convictions who come to their convictions by careful critical thought.
The truth is, as a Theist, I think it IS difficult to believe in God. But to believe that the universe is all there is (ala Sagan) is IMHO insane. Both evidence and reason lead me to the incredible and strong impression that there is something beyond and some purpose in it all.
Those who come the conclusion that today is all there is of reality (forgive the exaggeration) must suppress the evidence. They must assume ahead of time (a priori) the idea that there might be something beyond. They must limit themselves to the material. It is an arbitrary decision IMHO. AKA faith.
Theists, BTW, do not park their brain s at the door. We believe in the reality of the material. We believe in cause and effect in the natural world. We have no trouble doing science. It is either ignorance or a red herring when anti-theists charge otherwise.
ICalling people intelligent people delusional is engaging in the worse kind of logical fallacy and only ends up diminishing respect for your ideas.
Don Camp, you are operating under the assumption that intelligence precludes delusion. You don't have to be stupid to be delusional, and all of us deceive ourselves in some way or another at some point in our lives.