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May 19th, 2011
09:04 AM ET
What we'll miss if the world endsIf the doomsday folks are correct, there are at least two judgments we will miss – mainly who will be crowned the winners of "American Idol" and "Dancing With the Stars." The clock is ticking toward May 21, which listeners of Family Radio have marked as the Day of Rapture, when Christians will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus. The day will also, they say, be the start of a five-month Judgment Day and the end of the world as we know it. If true, that would suck for so many reasons including the mass destruction and chaos which is sure to follow. But let's consider a few reasons why it would be a tragedy in the realm of pop culture. Read the full of things CNN's Marquee Blog will miss if Doomsday is Saturday.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I cannot wait to get on my knees and accept the Lord's offering.
Amen.
I'd rather have spaghetti and meatballs.
RAmen.
That is a time dependent concept. If I accept the premise that there is "life after" life, then philosophy and theology agree that existence enters what is best described as "the eternal now". To be on your knees, and accept something, means you would have to to continue to exist inside the (assumed) created dimension of space-time, as well as to exist in the eternal "now". That is illogical.
@DorianMode
That was the fake HeavenSent making a crude remark, it wasn't actually fulfilling his wish to be accepted by God, but instead to be molested by God, and receiving his load.
The Spirit of Truth vs. the Spirit of Error.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world. – 1 John 4:1
John speaks of the SPIRITS of teachers in a way similar to what Paul says about the spirits of the prophets in 1 Cor. 14:32. John is not referring here to demon possession, but to teachers who promote error. Believers have the Holy Spirit (3:24); but FALSE PROPHETS obey evil spirits. A true prophet is one who receives direct revelation from God. A false prophet claims to have received direct revelation from God but in fact promotes erroneous ideas. So let us review what Jesus and Paul taught about the end times to see if this so called prophet is a false teacher.
For 2,000 years people have wondered about the events of the end times and when Jesus will return. Terms such as millennium, tribulation, 666, and antichrist are used in the media and the supermarket tabloids, but questions remain:
– Will Jesus return physically and reign on earth for 1,000 years?
– Will Christians go through a seven-year tribulation?
– Will the second coming of Christ occur at the same time that believers meet Christ in the air (the rapture)?
– Will Christians be raptured (removed from this earth) and other people “left behind”?
– What does the nation of Israel have to do with the end times?
There are four different views of end-times events, but all share some key points:
– Jesus will come again for those who love him.
– Jesus calls his followers to be ready all the time.
– No one knows the day or the hour. Jesus said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” – Matthew 24:36
WHAT JESUS TAUGHT ABOUT THE END:
Jesus promised his disciples that he would come again. Before his return there would be:
“Birth Pains” (Events before the “signs” of the end)
– Many will claim to be the Messiah.
– People will be deceived by these messiahs.
– Wars, famine, earthquakes, pestilence.
– Believers in Christ persecuted and killed.
– Believers will be witnesses of Jesus to kings.
– Many will turn away from the faith.
– Betrayals by parents, brothers, and friends.
– Increase in wickedness. “Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” – Matthew 24:12-13
– Fearful events and signs from heaven.
The Signs of the End
– Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
– The “abomination of desolation.”
– Great tribulation like never before.
– Jerusalem will be trampled on by Gentiles.
– False prophets perform signs, miracles.
– Sun darkens, moon doesn’t shine, stars fall.
– Severe ocean activity disturbs the nations.
– People will faint with terror.
– Jesus will appear in the sky.
– The trumpet will sound.
– Angels will gather God’s elect.
(Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21)
WHAT PAUL TAUGHT ABOUT THE END:
1. The Lord will descend.
2. The dead in Christ will rise first.
3. The living will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord and be with him forever.
4. Don’t believe those who say the Day of the Lord has already come.
5. The Day of the Lord will be preceded by:
5.1. Rebellion
5.2. The revelation of the man of lawlessness who will:
5.2.1. Oppose and exalt himself over God
5.2.2. Set himself up in God’s temple
5.2.3. Proclaim to be God
5.2.4. Be revealed when the one holding him back is taken out of the way
5.2.5. Be accompanied by satanic, counterfeit miracles
5.2.6. Deceive those who do not love the truth
6. When Jesus comes, the man of lawlessness will be overthrown and destroyed.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2)
So is this the spirit of truth or the spirit of error? I'll leave it up to you to decide.
we won't miss this website...haven't quite escaped it, but it is certainly a life-sucking vortex of time wasted...
Idiots like this are one reason I've moved away from organized religion.
> might add that it's like the use of the word "theory". The believer will take that as simply to mean "we just don't know" because of its everyday usage. But if we insert "scientific" we may have to simply bypass the misunderstanding that we are talking about known, tested information.
I get you know, it seemed you were making an argument of equivocation. I personally don't say "I have faith" in things specifically for that reason. I trust that my wife will do this being the most difficult of the situations you provided.
Faith is a leftover from primitive language I think. Just like "treating something like gospel". It's part and parcel to the lingering effects religion has on our culture.
@Bobinator:
"Faith is a belief in a concept that has no evidence for it"
That's a single definition of many. And while you may want it to only mean one thing, the dictionary disagrees with you.
I can understand your personal disdain and the consequent vigilance on your part to strike the very language you consider religion-inspired from your vocabulary. But I still don't consider it a practical way to discuss the topic, especially when dealing with believers. Sure it makes sense to your personal stance, but when having to communicate it in a more comprehensive way to those who do not share your position, I think it's important for us to be conscious of the way others use language. Or we might fall into the same habit of many believers to just redefine any word they like to suit their purposes. At that point we are just talking past each other and having no meaningful communication at all. Then there is no way to bridge the gap of understanding. And to me, that's the most important point of having discussions like this.
Of course, when you consider the stubborn, hard-hearted ones, there are very few ways to discuss the topic of religion with certain believers. But that's a whole other problem!
On a personal note, I don't feel I can dismiss the cultural remnants of religion from language. There is a beauty there, that I don't think costs us anything. But I'm sure we could disagree on that too. Anyway, It was nice chatting with you. 🙂
When we atheists, once again, prove to be right and these Christians, once again, prove to be believing in non-existent sky-fairies, we need to capitalize on it to help as many Christians as possible out of their silly supersti-tions.
Might I suggest that, on Sunday and Monday, we not gloat, but offer an understanding ear to those few whose minds will be opened by their next inevitable $crew up.
@Colin: Now there's an excellent idea! A little compassion goes a long way.
Sucks for China if the thing happens like the blog describes–at about 6 PM in a staggered fashion–China only has one time zone!
These people are CRAZY! They have a different day for The Great Amazing Christian Fly-Away than other Christians, so they are crazy. Not because they believe in the float-away, but because we disagree on the date.
I just ordered this shirt in case I'm still on earth. It occurred to me that even if I do survive the Earthquakes and such that are inevitable ingredients of the Rapture, I can still only wear it until October when the whole entire Universe is destroyed. But that's cool, check out the shirt...
http://www.cafepress.com/InspiredStyle.541693101#
Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Matthew 27:52-53
The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
How do you know your bible verse isn't true, just like the above one?
Good point, perhaps I can bleach out the date when my shirt arrives and save it for if I really end up being a surviver...
http://www.cafepress.com/InspiredStyle.541693101#
Since that quote was written down many decades after it was (or wasn't) spoken, maybe something got lost. Maybe it was something to the effect of: 'No one will the day or the hour ... unless you can decode the super-secret cypher the authors of the selected biblical canon will write down many many years after my demise."
Still, all of the rapture ready think that it's going to happen any year now, and not some distant time. I mean, if you really believed in the Mark verse the rapture could still be thousands of years into the future. I guess that isn't a very se.xy thought. Not one that would ever sell any "Left Behind" books, anyway.
And isn't the entire rapture message the same kind of claim to know God's mind as this one? Rather hypocritical of any of the rapture ready to speak out against this, isn't it? After all, they believe that the rapture could happen this weekend just as easily as any other in the near future, right?
@ The Bobinator.
How do you KNOW the verse in Matthew you quote is not true? You don't, and I suspect deep in your own heart you try to bury the doubt.
"How do you KNOW the verse in Matthew you quote is not true? You don't, and I suspect deep in your own heart you try to bury the doubt."
One could say that about every word written in every religious text man has ever created – Christian or otherwise. Not sure really what the point is. I also don't KNOW that every account of mermaid sightings isn't true either since I can't prove it. But I don't doubt that there aren't mermaids. Do you?
For me, there is no doubt.
> How do you KNOW the verse in Matthew you quote is not true? You don't, and I suspect deep in your own heart you try to bury the doubt.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
Heaven sent us tsunamis, cancers, meningitis, pneumonia, arthritis, lupus, and doomsday cults.
Amen.
Sounds like a good reason to reject what heaven sends.
No human can predict the second coming of Christ. But, if you are truly a Christian, it will not be DOOMSDAY. The world is not going to end Saturday.
Typical of you non-believers phony heavensent. Lying, cheating, stealing, breaking all rules through life and then some. Thank you for stealing my handle to write your babble. You prove what you non-believers are all about. Meaning, nothing.
Amen.
> And that's why I'm saying make the definition of faith distinct so no one, believers or no, can make the equation that all "faith" is equal.
The definition is already distinct. Faith is the belief in a concept that has no evidence for it. 🙂
I thought every day was doomsday for the non- believers?
Amen.
Perhaps, but at least we don't long for death like the Christians do.
Everybody say they want to go to heaven, but not right now. ))
Bobinator, "Long for death"?? That's a new one. We don't long for death. We love and appreciate everything the Lord gives us. That's why we are not afraid of death. Big difference.
Amen.
As a non-believer I have absolutely no fear of death. But the fear of death is what many (most) religions use to keep the flock in line. There's is an obsession with death. Its seems very unhealthy. Why not live for the moment instead of focusing on some distant reward or punishment?
> Bobinator, "Long for death"?? That's a new one. We don't long for death. We love and appreciate everything the Lord gives us. That's why we are not afraid of death. Big difference.
Then you don't really believe do you? If I believed in a cloud themed park where my every wish would come true I'd want to die as soon as possible given the current guidelines.
If I really believed, I'd travel to Iran and start walking around preaching for Christ against Mohammad. When I'm killed (not my fault I might add) God will welcome me in. Small price to pay.
The fact that people don't do this is a testimony to people not knowing that God exists and not knowing that they will live after death.
Stevie7, to fear death means to read, comprehend and apply Jesus' truth to our lives and not satan's lies. Death equals sin.
Amen.
Give me doomsday already...
doczero, every day is doomsday for you non-believers if you don't ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more.
Amen.
Heavensent I would rather welcome your sin than worship your pathetic god. lol
Artist, God created All.
Amen.
No, men create god through their imaginations.
What would you miss come the end of the world? I guess ultimately the question is really when you are no longer here what would you miss about being alive. I'd miss some pretty trivial things – chocolate, Supernatural tv series, Harry Potter... But also reading books and drawing, going to the beach... And then my husband of course, and my family and friends.
We miss the things that brought us joy. Nobody ever misses all the suffering or hardships or struggles. Nobody misses political ads or religious conflict or being at war. Or working overtime or being hungry or taking medication. Complicated question this. It's about what we value most and what our lives are worth. Sorry bout getting so deep... that's just what I got out of it.
Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses have little credibility with their own fairy tale primary doctrine of Jesus ‘invisible’ second coming October 1914
Watchtower society false prophets declare end of world in 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984....
-–
Danny Haszard been there!
PeterVM:
God gave us a mind to use it. Obviously I take offense to that quote. Unfortunately, what makes the news these days is the extreme and outrageous, and if that is all you ever read or listen to, then you will be quite misunderstood about Christianity and the bible. With that said, the Bible tells us everything we need to know about Judgement day, and how we should respond and react to people like Harold Camping. Peace...
http://ginzotalk.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/is-the-world-ending/
What's not outrageous about all the bloody animal sacrifice and burnt offerings that your bible very explicitly demands of you?
For that matter, what's not outrageous about talking snakes, virgin birth, and a "loving" god that promises eternal torture if you merely happen to doubt its existence.
Really, you've got to be pretty gullible to believe in the bible tall tales, or just plain stupid, or both. So the quote is pretty apt. Deal with it.
PeterVM
>>What's not outrageous about all the bloody animal sacrifice and burnt offerings that your bible very explicitly demands of you?
The bible does not demand those things from me, as Christ has sacrificed to bring me eternal salvation, through faith and by God's grace. If you read the bible, you will learn that the animal sacrifices were not the path to salvation, faith was. In addition, if you look at the bible and read it with today's world in your mind, instead of in the context of the world in which they authors lived, you will always misunderstand. Unfortunately that is why some come to the conclusions that you do.
>>For that matter, what's not outrageous about talking snakes, virgin birth, and a "loving" god that promises eternal torture if you merely happen to doubt its existence.
I can understand that a supernatural God with supernatural powers can be very confusing to someone with little or no faith. I hope one day that changes for you. BTW, God promises eternal life if all we do is believe and trust in him. It is our fall from grace and our actions that condemn us. It is His grace that grants us eternal life, but unfortunately our selfish desires that keep us from it.
>>Really, you've got to be pretty gullible to believe in the bible tall tales, or just plain stupid, or both. So the quote is pretty apt. Deal with it.
It is not uncommon to find those along are path that are either angry or in denial and choose to insult someone of faith. It is a common tactic. Hopefully one day you stop wrestling with God and learn to surrender. I guarantee you that it will be the most liberating things you ever do. God will not move from His position. We must be the ones to change....
Peace...
Your post is bullsh-it plain and simple. Read Leviticus:
# "Kill the bullock before the LORD ... bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar." 1:5
# "Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces." 1:6
# Lay ... the head, and the fat ... on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs ... burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice ... a sweet savour unto the LORD." 1:8-9
# "Kill ... before the Lord and ... sprinkle blood round about." 1:11
# "Cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat ... and burn it ... for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 1:12-13
# "If the burnt sacrifice ... be of fowls ... wring off his head, and burn it ... and the blood thereof shall be wrung out." 1:14-15
# "For a sweet savour unto the Lord." 1:17
# "Part it in pieces... it is a meat offering." 2:6
# "It is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire." 2:10
# "He shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it ... and .... sprinkle the blood ... round about." 3:2
# "The fat that covereth the inwards ... and the two kidneys ... and the caul above the liver.... It is ... a sweet savour unto the Lord." 3:3-5
# "He shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it ... and .... sprinkle the blood ... round about." 3:8
# "The fat ... the whole rump ... the inwards ... the two kidneys ... burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the LORD." 3:9-11
You moron.
"It is not uncommon to find those along are path that are either angry or in denial and choose to insult someone of faith. It is a common tactic."
I would say its a common tactic of believers who are in denial about the doubts in their faith to hurl insults at those who do not believe as they do in an attempt to suppress their doubt. It's a common tactic.
"Hopefully one day you stop wrestling with God and learn to surrender. I guarantee you that it will be the most liberating things you ever do."
The most liberating thing I ever did was choose to let go of religion, of the indoctrination of my youth, and live life to the fullest – not to live life for some non-existent future reward or punishment. It wasn't easy, but was easily the most fulfilling.
PeterVM:
You need to do more reading. I did not say that animal sacrifices did not occur in the bible. I said that animal sacrifices were NOT the path to salvation. I am sorry about whatever happened in your life that causes you such anger and a need to insult someone else simply based on their faith. Again, I hope that you find some peace in your life...
>>The most liberating thing I ever did was choose to let go of religion, of the indoctrination of my youth, and live life to the fullest – not to live life for some non-existent future reward or punishment. It wasn't easy, but was easily the most fulfilling.
I am sorry that you felt indoctrinated. I did too as a child. Unfortunately, sometimes the Christian body can be its worse enemy. But I do disagree your implication that living a Christian life is contrary to living life to the fullest. I have never felt freer than after giving my life to Christ. Your view of Christianity as reward or punishment also gives me an idea of your upbringing and that is unfortunate. I don't push Christianity on anyone, although I am not ashamed of my beliefs either. I am do not look at it as a reward or punishment system. God simply exists, and Jesus is how He chose to reveal Himself to the world. All He is asks is that we believe in Him and trust Him. All of us are granted eternal life, as long as we believe. Punishment is really our choice. Those who chose to follow sin are condemned already. You don't agree that is fine. As for me, I will serve Jesus.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 1:16
"All He is asks is that we believe in Him and trust Him. All of us are granted eternal life, as long as we believe."
Seems to me the NT contains a few more instructions that to just believe. And if that's the case, do you really believe that many, if not most Nobel Peace prize winners will or are suffering eternal torment just because they didn't believe in your particular god? What about children in other countries who die early, brought up in a different religion, before ever given the chance to hear about Christianity's message? That doesn't sounds very loving to me. That sounds highly narcissistic.
For all the doomsdayers, You don't know what your Bible states:
1. Rapture
2. 7 year tribulation period
3. 1000 year reign of Christ
4. Final rebellion
Looks like we have at least 1007 years and that is IF the rapture happens today! Get back with me on the 22nd . Maybe then you will recognize Camping as the false prophet he is. To my atheist friends, this will not make sense to you. You are too busy using human reason and logic to debate, deny, and disprove what is only spiritually understood. The results of your attempts equals epic FAILURE
*yawn*
@Steve: They know what their bible says. They've just chosen to interpret that book differently from you. Just because your personal views differ does not make you an authority on their Christianity.
Frogist
@Steve: They know what their bible says. They've just chosen to interpret that book differently from you. Just because your personal views differ does not make you an authority on their Christianity.
-------–
1. No they don't! Tell me Frogist, what will be your post come Sunday and they are still here?
2. Camping is using a mathematical formula. Nowhere is the Spirit of God in that!
3. The scriptures prohibit setting dates
4. Camping said the same thing in 1994
5. Why is it Atheists act like they know who is and who isn't an authority on the very scriptures you don't believe and cannot understand?
SeanNJ
*yawn*
----
A very insightful post! All I learned is you are are tired! Get more rest!
> You are too busy using human reason and logic to debate, deny, and disprove what is only spiritually understood. The results of your attempts equals epic FAILURE
Really, logic and reason lead to truth. Faith doesn't lead to the truth. Look at all the religions that have gotten it wrong over the years. Only one religion can have it right (best case for the theist), so the rest are wrong.
So if faith is unable to determine truth spiritually, what do you use Steve. My guess is that you use ignorance and self-fulfilling actions to determine your truth.
The Bobinator
> You are too busy using human reason and logic to debate, deny, and disprove what is only spiritually understood. The results of your attempts equals epic FAILURE
Really, logic and reason lead to truth. Faith doesn't lead to the truth. Look at all the religions that have gotten it wrong over the years. Only one religion can have it right (best case for the theist), so the rest are wrong.
So if faith is unable to determine truth spiritually, what do you use Steve. My guess is that you use ignorance and self-fulfilling actions to determine your truth.
----------
Faith leads to truth! One day it wil be made clear, just it will be too late! I am not concerned about what others have gotten wrong. You keep mentioning that as if I will somehow give up and be defeated in my faith. It will not happen!
you said: So if faith is unable to determine truth spiritually, what do you use Steve. My guess is that you use ignorance and self-fulfilling actions to determine your truth.
1. Faith is the ONLY way to determine spiritual truth! You can guess what I use all day long and you will still guess wrong! One would guess I would not be amazed anymore at the arrogance of mere men trying to over rule God. Yet somehow, I am not!!
@Steve (the real one)
Froggist is right.
There are ~ 38,000 different denominations of Christianity. Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.
If the Christian god exists, and He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's comprehension of His wants would be the same?
ambiguity – a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression.
1. If the Christian god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.
People attempt to discover and comprehend god's wants, by reading the bible.
2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.
3. Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
Religious opinions are like anuses, Steve. Everybody has one. Yours isn't special. You have no more evidence for your faith and belief than anyone else.
Cheers!
@Steve (the real one)
You said: "Faith leads to truth! One day it wil be made clear, just it will be too late! I am not concerned about what others have gotten wrong. You keep mentioning that as if I will somehow give up and be defeated in my faith. It will not happen!"
So, by your reasoning, faith in there being a Santa Claus, fairies and Zombie Messiahs will somehow lead you to the truth of the matter? Suspending critical thinking and just accepting something as being true is somehow the key to knowledge?
Science has given us our standard of living today, by challenging things others have taken on faith. Jesus and his cronies believed the world was flat. Should we have just taken that on faith?
Believers desperately want faith to be accepted as an equal to actual evidence. They are not equal. Faith is worthless without evidence.
Cheers!
you said: So if faith is unable to determine truth spiritually, what do you use Steve. My guess is that you use ignorance and self-fulfilling actions to determine your truth.
1. Faith is the ONLY way to determine spiritual truth! You can guess what I use all day long and you will still guess wrong! One would guess I would not be amazed anymore at the arrogance of mere men trying to over rule God. Yet somehow, I am not!!
"Camping is using a mathematical formula. Nowhere is the Spirit of God in that!"
I find this very interesting. I would think that math would be the closest thing to God, being that it may be the one incorruptible thing/concept in existence, i.e. math is the Truth if there ever was one Truth (not that I think there is).
David Johnson
@Steve (the real one)
Froggist is right.
There are ~ 38,000 different denominations of Christianity. Each denomination can show you scripture, that "proves" they understand the wants of Jesus/god.
All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.
Many of these denominations believe only their members will be saved.
-------
I understand that and still, so what? So if (by your theory) 3000 atheists are lying thieves, are all atheists are lying thieves? According to how you like to lump all "religions" together, the answer would be yes!
You are correct in one aspect: Religious opinions are like anuses. Everybody has one.
That is true BUT what is also true is you apparently never heard of a colonoscopy bag! This is used when the anus does not work. So in short, many opinions yet they all don't work! Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life (SINGULAR) Believe or not! You have NO evidence that I am NOT right. You will then counter that I have a burden to prove I right? Wrong! I accept no such burden! What you don't understand is the word FAITH! You use it everyday! You and I both do, just the target of our faith is is in opposite directions.
> Faith leads to truth! One day it wil be made clear, just it will be too late! I am not concerned about what others have gotten wrong. You keep mentioning that as if I will somehow give up and be defeated in my faith. It will not happen!
No no Steve. You don't understand. I have provided you with evidence that faith has lead to more wrong conclusions then correct ones by a factor of at least 10,000 to 1, the 10,000 being the lowball number for the religions that have existed on earth. I therefore conclude that faith is not a reliable method for determining truth.
Now, if you had an IQ over 80 you'd understand that this fact needs to be disproven or an alternate conclusion must be found. However, you seem to think that asserting your point as fact again while ignoring my complaint will suffice.
It does not.
Please address how faith can in fact be the path to truth given that it has lead to far more wrong conclusions then correct ones. Of course, I don't think you can, which is why you try to switch the subject.
Otherwise I'd have to conclude that your assertation that faith can be a path to truth is crushed under what we have observed to be the case.
@Steve:
I consider myself an agnostic not an atheist. The distinction is small but important. It might aid you to ask my position before assuming you know what it is.
Statements 1-4 you made out of your own interpretation of the same source by means of faith in your god's ability. These people did the same. Unless you are saying you are better at knowing god than they are, you have no claim of authority. The best you can do is say your personal opinion is different from theirs.
No no Steve. You don't understand. I have provided you with evidence that faith has lead to more wrong conclusions then correct ones by a factor of at least 10,000 to 1, the 10,000 being the lowball number for the religions that have existed on earth. I therefore conclude that faith is not a reliable method for determining truth.
Now, if you had an IQ over 80 you'd understand that this fact needs to be disproven or an alternate conclusion must be found. However, you seem to think that asserting your point as fact again while ignoring my complaint will suffice.
-----–
Bobinator:
1. Your personal attacks betray you!
2. You have provided no evidence but instead a regurgation of what you read.
3. You keep referring to "religion" I am not. I am referring to a relationship with God. yes, some can make Christianity into another religion but that was never its purpose.
4. Conclude what you will!
1. Your personal attacks betray you!
They are observations based on your behaviour. If you don't like being called a knob, perhaps you shouldn't act like one.
2. You have provided no evidence but instead a regurgation of what you read.
Ok, let me spell it out for you. You say faith is a path to truth. I say it is not. I point you to the thousands of religions that got it wrong that were based on faith. I ask you now, how do you rationalize this? How is it that faith can be a path to truth and at the same time lead people to a falsehood. That doesn't make sense. Stop being a coward and answer the question.
3. You keep referring to "religion" I am not. I am referring to a relationship with God. yes, some can make Christianity into another religion but that was never its purpose.
Muslims will say they have a relationship with God. So will Hindus. So will Christians. They cannot all be correct. Therefore, some people who say they have a relationship with God are wrong. How do you determine you are correct?
4. Conclude what you will!
I already have. Long ago. I'm just pointing out your ridiculousness for others so that moderates say "wow, I don't want to be that guy/gal."
Frogist
@Steve:
I consider myself an agnostic not an atheist. The distinction is small but important. It might aid you to ask my position before assuming you know what it is.
Statements 1-4 you made out of your own interpretation of the same source by means of faith in your god's ability. These people did the same. Unless you are saying you are better at knowing god than they are, you have no claim of authority. The best you can do is say your personal opinion is different from theirs.
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If I misrepresented you, I apologize. I get the same thing ALL the time for your side! Frogist, what you fail to understand is any interpretation outside the word of God is incorrect! No where did He ask us to use math to determine what His timetable is. He told us to simply recieve it by faith and stay prayful and ready. That is it!
Again, Come Sunday and nothing happens, what will you say or think about Christians then? Is it I told you so? You are going to use this foolish non-event to color all of us. I am telling you right here and right now Camping is wrong and is a false prophet. We are NOT to set dates. He was wrong to do it in 1994 and he is wrong now.
@ Nonimus
Beware. Your habit of thinking is VERY dangerous.
(NIV Matthew 24:34) I tell you the truth, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
This "peabodyness" is as old as the eschatological cult from which it finds it's origin, (probably older). It's founder was one of many preachers of his day who believed the Roman occupation signaled the end times, and that the final day was to be seen in their lifetimes. When it failed to happen then, just as it will this time, Paul of Tarsus tried to rationalize the "non event", just as I guarantee you, these folks will do, if CNN has the guts to do any follow up to these stories.
The Bobinator
1. Your personal attacks betray you!
They are observations based on your behaviour. If you don't like being called a knob, perhaps you shouldn't act like one.
2. You have provided no evidence but instead a regurgation of what you read.
Ok, let me spell it out for you. You say faith is a path to truth. I say it is not. I point you to the thousands of religions that got it wrong that were based on faith. I ask you now, how do you rationalize this? How is it that faith can be a path to truth and at the same time lead people to a falsehood. That doesn't make sense. Stop being a coward and answer the question.
3. You keep referring to "religion" I am not. I am referring to a relationship with God. yes, some can make Christianity into another religion but that was never its purpose.
Muslims will say they have a relationship with God. So will Hindus. So will Christians. They cannot all be correct. Therefore, some people who say they have a relationship with God are wrong. How do you determine you are correct?
4. Conclude what you will!
I already have. Long ago. I'm just pointing out your ridiculousness for others so that moderates say "wow, I don't want to be that guy/gal."
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1. Do you understand to concept of faith?
I am not concerned about what you think of me!
2. once again, I am not concerned about the beliefs of other religions. You like to lump everybody together. I don't need to raltionalize what somebody else is doing. I believe the Bible! Plain and simple.
3. How do I determine I am correct...The Bible! To answer you about how faith can lead to the truth and falsehoods. is all faith the same faith? Are all religions the same? There are even differences in denominations within Christianity. You would have a better understand if yo stopped lumping all faiths together!
4. I really don't want anybody to be me. I can only point someone to the Lord. I can save no one including myself. So I will end with this. Don't be me, don't even be like me. Be like Jesus! Paul said it best... follow me AS I follow Christ. Once again it is all about faith!
@Steve: You are mistaken in your interpretation of what David is saying. It is not that one kind are bad, so all are bad. It is that one kind uses faith to reach their conclusion, and the other kind uses faith to reach their conclusion, therefore both conclusions from faith are valid. It is not that David has no proof you are wrong, but that you have no proof that you are right that is different from Camping and his followers proof that they are right.
Thank you for your apology.
You say "any interpretation outside of the word of God is incorrect." You do understand that what you are doing when you say He didn't ask you to use math, and just be prayerful, is also an interpretation by you. You have used your experience and knowledge of the bible and faith in god to make the interpretation that Camping is wrong. But Camping and Co have done the same and would say you are wrong.
Come Sunday, barring some change of events, I will look at Christians the same way I do now. Camping has made it more evident the ridiculous lengths some people will go to just on their religious faith. But can you sincerely say you are any different than me in that regard? You seem to also be in wonder at what people will do when they interpret their beliefs without some guidelines? You are just as disbelieving in what Camping says as I am. You are on the side of every non-believer who says these people are wrong. So before you condemn me for looking at unguided faith with caution for this mess, understand that you are in the same position I'm in.
> once again, I am not concerned about the beliefs of other religions. You like to lump everybody together. I don't need to raltionalize what somebody else is doing. I believe the Bible! Plain and simple.
Once again you dodge the question because you know what admitting it would mean. You're an intellectual coward.
Steve (the real one)-
"To my atheist friends, this will not make sense to you. You are too busy using human reason and logic to debate, deny, and disprove what is only spiritually understood."
"Spiritually understood", but having real world consequences, like death and destruction, right? If what you were talking about only played out in people's minds then you might have an argument, but anything that has real world consequences necessarily are within the realm of reason and logic, so your claim is just plain silly.
"2. once again, I am not concerned about the beliefs of other religions. You like to lump everybody together. I don't need to raltionalize what somebody else is doing. I believe the Bible! Plain and simple.
3. How do I determine I am correct...The Bible! To answer you about how faith can lead to the truth and falsehoods. is all faith the same faith? Are all religions the same? There are even differences in denominations within Christianity. You would have a better understand if yo stopped lumping all faiths together!"
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What you are saying, effectively, is that *your* faith is qualitatively different from, and superior to, all other forms of faith because it leads you to truth while all other faith leads people to errors. Okay... By what means does anyone who doesn't already share your faith identify this difference? How can anyone looking at your faith versus all the other possible ones determine that *this* is the one unique faith that will lead them to truth?
Steve (the real one)
"I am referring to a relationship with God. yes, some can make Christianity into another religion but that was never its purpose."
If that were so then all who believe in Jesus would still be Jews, right?
Free
Steve (the real one)
"I am referring to a relationship with God. yes, some can make Christianity into another religion but that was never its purpose."
If that were so then all who believe in Jesus would still be Jews, right?
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No
All DOOMS-DAY people please send money to the "Halligan Fund". I am located in Toledo, Ohio!
The world will end. The Sun will die. Everything that is living will die. There is nothing enyone can do about it. Talking or worrying about it will not change a thing.
When May 22nd comes around... "We made a mathmatical erorr."
The net result from this is that they have highlighted the nonsense that faith can lead people to. Faith is not a virtue. Faith is gullibility.
On a similar note, I'll quote a good recent blog post:
"Religion is for the stupid, the ignorant, the cowardly, and the gullible, and for those who would profit from them."
Emphasis on "gullible" of late.
@Bobinator: We might be using different meanings of the word faith. But I don't think faith = being gullible. That's a very pessimistic position to take. Esp if the faith we are talking about is faith in your spouse or faith in human intelligence or faith that the sun will come up in the morning. I'm not disputing you that religious faith can lead to some very dangerous att!tudes. I'm just saying that maybe a more specific definition of the kind of faith you mean might be helpful.
@Frogist: But your specific definition of faith generally involves a reasonable expectation based on past experience. Religious belief doesn't have anything of the sort.
If it weren't for the religious nutballs that seize on every opportunity to say, "See! You're just like us!" we wouldn't need to make the distinction at all.
@SeanNJ: Hi Sean! I'm aware of that. And that's why I'm saying make the definition of faith distinct so no one, believers or no, can make the equation that all "faith" is equal.
> That's a very pessimistic position to take. Esp if the faith we are talking about is faith in your spouse or faith in human intelligence or faith that the sun will come up in the morning.
Except those aren't faith. Those are reasonable expectations based on observed instances. I trust my spouse or do not trust my spouse based on the actions I have observed of her. I do not have faith in human intelligence because this very post proves it exists, or rather, that my own intelligence exists. As for the sun coming up, that's not faith either. That's science. It doesn't come up, the earth is bound by the rules of physics to keep on turning.
The difference between the faith of religion and what you claim what I have faith in is a concept that has no evidence to support it vs. observable, testable claims that other people can reach and agree upon.
If your definition of faith covers both of those, your term is so broadbased that it covers everything and is therefore useless.
I have to say that it bothers the hell out of me that we may be forced to invent new words to prevent our positions from being misrepresented.
@Frogist
This definition works for me.
Definition of faith – Religious faith in a theological context is a confident belief in a transcendent reality, a religious teacher, a set of teachings or a Supreme Being. Thus, religious faith disqualifies reasoning in favor of "transcendent reality". However, atheists and agnostics generally consider religious faith to be simply superst_ition. – Source: Wikipedia
Cheers!
We may all wish to deny that the word "faith" has different interpretations but we do so at our own peril. It is not my interpretation it is merely how our language exists. We don't say "I have science" in my spouse. We say "I have faith." And if you choose not to use faith in that way, you need to say so at the outset if only to deny believers the idea that "faith" is something that non-believers have in the same way. After all we only have language to explain our position.
I don't think we have to invent new words, although it would be simpler, I'm sure. We just have to define them properly. It is annoying that we have to be so precise to counter the obtuse stubborness of those who insist their faith is equal to everyone and everything else's, but that is the burden of our position. It is not difficult for us to specify religious faith if it moves the conversation past having to fend off these claims that non-belief is just a different form of religious faith. And it may get us where we want to go faster.
I might add that it's like the use of the word "theory". The believer will take that as simply to mean "we just don't know" because of its everyday usage. But if we insert "scientific" we may have to simply bypass the misunderstanding that we are talking about known, tested information. I personally think we will have to keep defining it for those not in the know or being deliberately obtuse, but at least we can say we made the distinction up front.
On May 22nd the guy who created this will be laughing all the way to the bank. I cannot wait for natural selection to kick in and these fools off themselves when they have given and lost everything for their sky fairy. lol
David Johnson-
The question for the theist to answer is by what criteria do they separate their beliefs from established superst.ition, right? As it is right now many religious people already tend to view the beliefs of other religions as mere superst.ition. Perhaps a lack of objectivity regarding their own cherished beliefs working in hand with a rich bigotry against rival faiths accounts for this, I suppose?