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My Faith: How I learned to stop 'praying away the gay'
Don Lemon with his grandmother on his third birthday.
May 22nd, 2011
01:00 AM ET

My Faith: How I learned to stop 'praying away the gay'

Editor's Note: Don Lemon is a CNN anchor and author of Transparent, a memoir .

By Don Lemon, CNN

"School day, time to get up, sleepy head. School day."

Although she's been gone since 1998, my grandmother's words ring in my head just about every morning of my life. That's how MaMe, as I called her, got me out of bed and off to my Catholic school when I was growing up and in her care.

But before I shuffled my way to the bathroom to begin my morning routine, I had to hit the floor on my knees to pray, just as I had the night before.

It was usually The Lord's Prayer ("Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...") followed by asking God to watch and guide me through my day until I returned to the safety of my home that evening.

But MaMe (pronounced MAH-me) didn't know that at a very early age her favorite grandson had begun to pray, silently, that God would change him from being different, from having crushes on boys, from being more curious about boys than girls.

By age four or five, I was too young to sexualize my infatuations but I knew that everyone else, including my family and friends, would think it was wrong.

Perhaps it was the conversations I overheard from adults around my hometown of Port Allen, Louisiana, who'd mimic gay people, calling them "funny" or "sissy" or "fagots."

Perhaps it was Sunday mornings at our Baptist church, where preachers taught that liking someone of the same sex was a direct and swift path to hell. And that if that person would just turn to the Lord and confess his sin, then God would change him back into the person He wanted him to be - a person who only had crushes on the opposite sex.

All of which meant that, from a very early age, I began to think I was dirty and that I was going to hell. Can you imagine what that feels like for a kid who was just learning to read and perform basic arithmetic? It was awful.

And talk about guilt - I was a Baptist attending Catholic school!

I prayed the silent prayer for God to change me every chance I got until I started attending college in New York. That's when common sense began to take hold and I realized that no amount of prayer would change me into something that wasn't natural to me.

With my religious upbringing, I'd had the opportunity to study religious doctrine. But I learned from different perspectives, from Catholic Mass on Fridays to Baptist services on Sundays to vacation Bible school in the summer to Bible study with a Jehovah's Witness as a teenager.

As I got older I began to realize that all these people and institutions interpreted the Bible somewhat differently. I had a sort of epiphany: the Bible was about the lessons you learned, not about the events or words.

When I became old enough, intelligent enough and logical enough to discern the difference between metaphor and reality, everything changed. I realized that Jonah living in the belly of a whale was a parable written in the same vein as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. saying that he had "been to the mountaintop."

Neither Jonah nor King had actually been to those places. They were metaphors for lessons for those of us who cared to absorb them.

So many of us, especially in the black community and in churches, tend to think that religious teachings happened word for word as they were written in Scripture. I think that's naïve, even dangerous.

That type of thinking - or non-thinking - keeps many religious people enslaved to beliefs that they haven't truly stepped back from and examined.

That type of thinking causes people who are otherwise good to shun and ostracize young gay people.

It causes people to want to control and change people who aren't like them. And who wants to be like someone else?

Imagine if we had allowed Christian doctrines and teachings that supported slavery, segregation and the subjugation of women to pervade our society all the way up until the current moment. What kind of world would that be?

Instead, we got on our knees, just as I did as a little boy, and prayed that slavery, segregation and the subjugation of women would end. In the United States, at least, those prayers have largely been realized.

I'm no longer the member of any church but I do believe in a higher power.

It's time for us, especially black people, to stop trying to pray the gay away and to get on our knees and start praying that the discrimination of gay people ends.

What we're doing to our young gay people now is child abuse. It's plain old bigotry and hatred. And if African-Americans don't know what that feels like in America, I don't know who does.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Don Lemon.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Opinion

soundoff (4,733 Responses)
  1. Jeff M

    Can you imagine if the market fragmentation of Android OS was as bad as the fragmentation in Christianity? Wow...they'd never get anywhere! (That's right, I poke fun at my own faith once in a while 😉 )

    Seriously, Christians...let's try not to let the complexity of Christianity screw up the simplicity of religion. Believe, love, hope.

    May 23, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • allfaith

      Thoughts of peace. Thoughts of peace...

      May 23, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • LetoAtreides

      Jeff, Actually, you have it backwards. The message of Christ is simple. Man's attempt to organize Christ's message is religion and religion gets messed up at times. Christ's message is forgiveness, salvation, eternal life. His motive is love. Pretty simple.

      June 6, 2011 at 4:10 pm |
  2. Jeff M

    Hey, here I am being all gay again. See how this works? I can use any name I want and post whatever I choose. I believe being gay is a blessing and a privilege. I wouldn't be straight for all the tea in China AND 72 vegans...uh, virgins.

    Get the picture? Jeffy?

    May 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm |
    • Yeah

      You have the emotional maturity of a 2 year old child.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Is this Eric, or Tom? I haven't seen Eric try anything like this, so I'm guessing it's Tom. Free world, do what you want.

      Oddly enough, the psychology behind your method leads me to believe that you are experiencing inadequacies in your current system of beliefs and cannot resort to more distinguished approaches with more notable maturity.

      I award you 0 points for a complete lack of originality, but will give you 1 point for not resorting to name-calling?

      May 23, 2011 at 4:48 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Still not getting it, are you? Anyone can appropriate any screen name, dear. I just took yours as someone took mine. Don't you like it? You seemed to like it when the shoe was on someone else's foot.

      Poor little boy.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Eric G

      @Jeff M: Unfortunately, this type of thing happens from time to time on this blog.

      As for me, I get in enough trouble speaking for myself. I don't need to speak for others too.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:58 pm |
  3. Jeff M

    I'm as gay as a day in May. I love gay s3x and engage in it every time I can find someone who'll ignore my stupidity and ugly cleft palate.

    May 23, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • Silly

      So when you are loosing an argument you resort to childish tactics. Grow up.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm |
    • Jeff M

      I can't help it. I went to a lousy school and I don't have a brain.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Ok, I'll re-post this since it once again applies
      Free world, do what you want.

      Oddly enough, the psychology behind your method leads me to believe that you are experiencing inadequacies in your current system of beliefs and cannot resort to more distinguished approaches with more notable maturity.

      I award you 0 points for a complete lack of originality, but will give you 1 point for not resorting to name-calling?

      May 23, 2011 at 4:49 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Oh, wait. I'm wrong. I didn't realize there were actually facts concerning the theory of evolution. Forget everything I said. I'm an idiot.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:01 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom/Jeff M:
      At it again? Oi vey.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Stop blaming others for your own sin, Jeff. You are going to hell.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Creationists like Jeffey refuse to subject their "theories" to peer reviews, because they know they don't fit the facts. The creationist mindset is distorted by the concept of "good science" (creationism) vs. "bad science" (anything not in agreement with creationism). Creation "scientists" are biblical fundamentalists who can not accept anything contrary to their sectarian religioius beliefs.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @HeavenSent
      Nice, very nice. "Tom, Tom" is just using the same "name" as I am to confuse things. It's juvenile. Try to read the posts before it is assuming it is actually me, the real "Jeff M".

      May 24, 2011 at 8:41 am |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom as HeavenSent and whatever other name he wants to use
      Quit avoiding the conversation. If I'm in any way imperfect you cite it as valid reason to claim victory – which is a lie. I've presented my side of the story to you and have been forthcoming and honest (though you have no reason to believe so and obviously do not). Why don't you actually "buck-up" and take a chance as well. Why not be honest rather than hide behind the anonymity of the Internet? You are hiding by constantly deflecting and pulling juvenile stunts such as mimicking others and confusing things by using the same "name" as others?

      May 24, 2011 at 9:08 am |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Creationists are delusional. Jeff, you wouldn't believe anything I posted anyway. That's okay. I know you're an idiot who went to some Christian Bible college and got a third-rate 'education'. It shows in every post you write.

    May 23, 2011 at 4:34 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Tom, you seem so pent up on my education... Ok, fine, I'll spill the beans. It's not an amazing story, but it is MY story.

      I did *not* go to a Christian college. I grew up in a Christian home. I didn't have some miraculous revelation in my life, but rather a friend who reminded me that I was not headed down a good road. I screwed up pretty bad in high school, it almost cost me *everything*. Luckily I had a friend stuck with me through it all. It was my soph0more year at Purdue University in West Lafayette Indiana when I finally woke up. I went to Purdue Christian Campus House and the teachings there just blew me away. I surrendered everything over, and finally experiences the joy and peace that I had been desperately searching for through YEARS of partying, girls, etc. I graduated with a degree in Computer Tech and a Minor in Psych. I now work at a Liberal Arts college and enjoy speaking with students about the change they can have made in their lives as well.

      Believe what you want, I'm not really interested in what you believe about *me*, but I just want you to know that there are Christians out there that are interested in seeing you happy for *eternity*. I practice accountability, not judgement. I'm not interested in idle banter. However, I will use any forum I can to try and reach unbelievers.

      My mask is off. I'm not going to hide behind some screen name or false ident-ity. You can tell me whatever you want about yourself. You can lie to all of us and say that because of this you have had some miraculous transformation. I don't want you to go away mad. In fact, I don't really want you to away. I just want to have a *real* conversation.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Liar. You never went to college. You were educated in my bedroom.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How does one get "pent up about" something? Really, you're a laugh, honey.

      Oh, and it's "judgment", you dimwit. You should learn to spell it if you're going to engage in it.

      Good luck saving souls, you moron. You, HS, and the rest of the thumpers do nothing but convince sane people that they want no part of your crazy. I certainly don't. I prefer to remain in the real world where people like you are nothing but jokes.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:15 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
      You make a shoddy attempt to deflect and diffuse what I say. It's a knee-jerk reaction, a defense mechanism. You want to play the "ignorance" game? Ok, then here's pent-up for you:
      pent-up: Closely confined or held back

      You are pent-up because you are unable to move forward in a logical and coherent conversation due to the fact that you feel I am an ignorant "twerp" with a 3rd-rate Bible College education – which could not be further from the truth. Once you get beyond the fact that I actually acting on real faith (and not blind faith, which you assume), then maybe we can have an adult conversation.

      May 24, 2011 at 9:12 am |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
      "Oh, and it's "judgment", you dimwit. You should learn to spell it if you're going to engage in it."

      This is actually incorrect. It can be spelled either "judgement" or "judgment", and both have the same definition. Grow up and stop deflecting.

      May 24, 2011 at 9:14 am |
  5. maggie

    the bible is not a scientific book but where it touches on matter of science it is correct. god knows human nature and the bible was written for human nature. so the bible will always be relevant until human nature changes. Do you people realize with all the progress we have made through out the centuries in science and everything else we are still ignorant of what is important. we have learned absolutely nothing. we have walked on the moon but we can not walk down our streets. we want to meet other beings but we can not get along with our next door neighbor. we make so much progress in agriculture but on third of the world population is going hungry everyday. The list goes on and on. so please tell me how that is progress.

    One thing about the bible it never changes, but scientists change their theories all the time.

    May 23, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    • DUH

      Interpretations of the bible have been going on for centuries. That is also why there are so many different denomination of Christianity. It's also why many things in the old testament are no longer valid. Do you even know how many people have been killed over religion?

      Wow your ignorance is scary.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
    • derp

      "we make so much progress in agriculture but on third of the world population is going hungry everyday."

      A third of the world is hungry because there is no money in feeding the poor. In America, we throw away enough food every day to feed all of staving africa for a year. If you coud get rich feeding the world, everywhere on earth would be just as obese as we are.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • derp

      "One thing about the bible it never changes, but scientists change their theories all the time."

      I guess you write with a stick in the sand and ride in a horse drawn carriage. For me, I'll take science. You do realize that those dumb scientists are the ones who invented computers and the internet, so that you could get online and question science.

      There is a reason that scientists change their theories. You may want to look up "Scientific Method".

      May 23, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
  6. Anna

    In the words of my good friend Mr. Billy Joel," I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, cause the sinners are much more fun. " I sure hope heaven serves free drinks! 🙂

    May 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
  7. maggie

    Erin,

    Look at creation and yourself.

    May 23, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • HUh

      Maggie practice what you're trying to preach.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
  8. Geraldine Coleman

    i was born a MARTIAN (so therefore I will live like a Martian)

    May 23, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
  9. Reality

    o All "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.

    To wit:

    o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

    “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

    "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

    Of course, those g-ays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.

    And because of basic biology differences and Abrahamic and other religious traditions said mon-ogamous ventures should always be called same-s-ex unions not same-s-ex marriages.-========================================

    May 23, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • Geraldine Coleman

      I dont think even you believe this.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
    • Geraldine Coleman

      Erin

      "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

      Prove it.

      Disprove it.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • DUH!

      ""In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

      Prove it.

      Disprove it."

      Typical christian it's because you can't you counter with disprove it. You would think that you would jump at the chance to prove your god and the story you claim is true.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm |
  10. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Look, just because I'm gay doesn't mean I'm stupid. Why can't people accept me for who I am?

    May 23, 2011 at 3:12 pm |
    • The Jackdaw

      Because you are gay.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Because people as a whole typically suffer from group-think and shove away those they deem as "different". It's almost a reflex. Unfortunately far too many "Christians" suffer from the same reflex.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Aww, whassamatta little troll? Didn't like what I had to say? I'm flattered that you care so much.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
      ... umm...which one of us are you talking to?

      May 23, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Talk to me! I'm the one who loves ya, baby.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:53 pm |
    • Ummm

      This Tom,Tom character can't handle his intellect being challenged so resorts to impersonating other peoples handle with the hope of driving them off this blog. It's unfortunate that such emotionally immature people have to resort to such tactics. Even though Jeff disagreed with you, it's simply that a disagreement. You would have shown to be a better person if you had simply tore each of his posts apart piece by piece.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Ummmm, will you have s#x with me? I wanna know what gays are like in bed.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • Ummmmm

      No, Jeff. I don't want to have s3x with you. I am only into animals.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
    • Keep

      Keep proving how low you will go and every time you do Jeff moves up on the scale. Nice job!

      May 23, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
    • Jeff M

      I am so high on the scale they have to build a special one. I weigh 399 lbs.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom/Jeff M.
      Wow, you only further highlight what Ummmm was posting. Keep on buddy, it is a free world (for now).

      May 24, 2011 at 9:15 am |
  11. Artist

    1word

    Exactly, the Devil is the prince of this world. The best way for him to take souls from God is to make people think their Gay and when is the best time to tempt them when their young!

    -------------

    uh huh....you are not playing with a full deck
    .
    Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations.
    As the illness continues, psychotic symptoms develop:
    • False beliefs or thoughts that are not based in reality (delusions)
    • Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)

    May 23, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      A full deck? This twit doesn't have a single card. She's a troll.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
  12. aginghippy

    How many people can recall the day that they made a CHOICE to be attracted to the opposite gender? I mean, did you suddenly find yourself faced with a changing body, feelings of arou$al that were unfocused, waiting for you to decide if you would be arou$ed by men or women? Or, as I suspect, did the new, exciting but confusing feelings just start happening spontaneously, with no conscious effort on your part? Ho-mose-xuals, like the author of this fine article, had no more choice regarding their se-xual orientation that a he-terosse-xual did. This issue is just another example of an obvious truth which must be rejected by religious nut jobs because it contradicts the absolute nonsense found in their "holy" texts. To accept the truth that a person is born g@y, would be to accept that God must have made them that way, and further that it is illogical that God hates them. The author is almost there. All he needs to do is to accept the fact that a book with so many glaring untruths is not worthy of the effort to try and find a few acceptable truths hidden among all of the lies. If he can reject belief in God, and recognize that we are all just highly evolved life forms, with no "creator", he can begin to know true peace of mind.

    May 23, 2011 at 3:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      You none believers are typical. Jesus tells you that you will crash into that brick wall going 60 m.p.h., you laugh and insist that you can then go 70, 80, 90 or 100 m.p.h. because no one is going to tell you this fairy tale that you will crash into that brick wall. Too blinded by sin not to learn from Jesus that you need to take another route. Jesus is that route.

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:28 pm |
    • Jodi

      Jesus loves gays and lesbians because he loves what God created!

      May 23, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
    • Eric G

      @HeavenSent: I am sorry to prove you wrong again, but based on the part of the world Jesus supposedly lived in, he would not have said "60 miles per hour". They use the metric system there.

      Or, are you just making stuff up again?

      May 23, 2011 at 3:35 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Jesus was gay. That's why he never married. He likes big man sausage.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
    • allfaith

      I remember finding my old man's Playboys when I was about nine. It got a rise out of me. It certainly felt like a natural response.

      May 24, 2011 at 1:25 am |
  13. Baranga the Great

    I hope our grandchildren will look upon discrimination against gays with the same disgust as we look upon the racism of grandparents generation.

    May 23, 2011 at 2:33 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Amen

      May 23, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
  14. Whosthinkin

    Let's just be real crazy for a second and assume the devil exists and is able to do the things the Bible says he does.

    He throws a mental whisper (insert temptation of choice greed, lust, adultery, fornication, hate, etc.) in your direction. You don't believe in the devil. You say to yourself, that idea must have come from me since I'm the only one involved here. Society tells you, "that's just the way you are". Then you think, "I must be (fill in the blank)." You subscribe to the idea that you have no control over yourself and just have to be how you are. No control, just a slave to your passions.

    Pretty sly trick.

    May 23, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
    • teddy

      The devil doesn't make anyone do anything just like God doesn't. Poeple have free will. BUT the devil, like God, can influence you to make choices. It is up to the person to know what are GOOD or BAD choices to make.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Seriously

      Sure, GOD doesn' MAKE people do things. Those who believe in him seem to have that covered...

      May 23, 2011 at 2:37 pm |
    • teddy

      Seriously

      Sure, GOD doesn' MAKE people do things. Those who believe in him seem to have that covered...

      May 23, 2011 at 2:37 pm....My reply–..your point being?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
    • 1word

      Exactly, the Devil is the prince of this world. The best way for him to take souls from God is to make people think their Gay and when is the best time to tempt them when their young!

      May 23, 2011 at 3:02 pm |
    • Erin

      "the Devil"

      Prove this devil exists.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:39 pm |
    • Frank

      @Whosthinkin, the problem with your idea is that you assume that gay people don't "try" to be "normal". You also assume that it is a choice, based on a bronze age book, and your own squirmy feelings about the subject.

      Most of us, myself included, grew up wishing and praying to have those feelings erased. After years of struggling, most of us let go of the self loathing, and accept ourselves. Those of us who don't, usually end up dead from suicide or in a mental hospital.

      I am sorry that you feel so strongly that I would choose to be something that my church and family disdained. My only choice was celibacy or companionship. I chose a life of companionship and love over a life of anguish and loneliness. You probably never walked a mile in those shoes, so I doubt you will ever understand. But I do hope someday you can learn to accept.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
  15. Seriously

    How quickly we forget our own history. Those who came to America left Europe because someone elses ideas of religion were being imposed upon them. They fled and came here in order to pursue their faith in the way they saw fit. How sad that their descendants are putting others in the positions their ansestors died to get away from.

    May 23, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
  16. 1word

    For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

    9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

    13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

    16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

    Starting at Mark 8 -18 Now for those who don't believe tell me how did Jesus KNOW THAT WE WOULD BE FLYING? Was there any airplanes during this time? Mark 18

    May 23, 2011 at 1:54 pm |
    • Eric G

      Wow. I sincerely hope you are joking.

      The use of "flight" is to describe a departure and journey, not airplanes.

      What is sad is that this is not the first time I have had to correct a believer on their understanding of the bible. Oh well, 50% of the population is dumber than average.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • 1word

      LOL, why not say Journey or Trip? You have never been on a Airplane when it hits turbulance and drops 30'000 feet. Imagine being on one and it's so cold it freezes the engines? I believe this is what Jesus was referring too because there's nothing you can do but KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO DIE.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • 1word

      The end of days is near! Repent people and get yourself right so we all can have eternal life. The Earth will be given to the Angels in Heaven and we will live forever worshipping Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

      May 23, 2011 at 2:10 pm |
    • 1word

      24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

      The Sun is what gives us HEAT on Planet Earth if the Sun is Darkened it's going to be really COLD on earth. Airplanes will not be able to fly in that cold. I will not be flying anytime soon, especially in the winter when the end of the world is near!

      May 23, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • Eric G

      Well my friend, it does say journey. You are reading an English Bible. It was written in Greek. Poor translation.

      You make many claims about your God. Can you present any evidence to support your claims that can be verified?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • dalis

      You geniuses do know that the Bibles was translated from OTHER languages, don't you? Please don't tell me your one of those fundies who actually thinks the first Christians wrote in King James English.

      That said, the word "flight" is the noun that corresponds to the verb "flee".

      May 23, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • 1word

      Eric G, it's not only my God but your God. You don't have to claim him but when that day comes and you're standing in front of him don't cry like a little girl when he rejects you. You looking for evidence? I gave it to you, haven't you been watching what was happening in the Mid East? NATION RISING AGAINST NATION? All those Nations are trying to overthrow it's government to be like America, they want more freedom so their willing to die for it. You don't have to believe what's clearly infront of you. I know God and Jesus is REAL! I love what he's done for me, and I will never REJECT HIM!

      May 23, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

      Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women] that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you?

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
    • Eric G

      "Nations rising against nation"? What is happening in the Middle East is revolution within a nation. This is nothing new.

      As for your other points, you have not presented any verifiable evidence that your god exists. Please do so.

      For future reference, I am trying to have a civil discussion about this topic. When you were given the opportunity to present evidence to support your claims, you chose to use threats instead. Why would I be intimidated by your god if you cannot provide any verifiable evidence that it exists?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
    • 1word

      Eric G, when was the last time these NATIONS rose against it's nation and it seems like after one conflict another Mid Eastern Nation is doing it. You can deny God all you want but look at yourself in the mirror there's your proof. You have ten major Body Parts and we have 10 COMMANDMENTS. Why do we have 10 TOES? Why do we have 10 FINGERS? EVOLUTION? I THINK NOT!

      May 23, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • Artist

      Nations have been fighting long before jebus, nothing new. I see nothing special or "earth shattering prophecy".

      May 23, 2011 at 2:52 pm |
    • Eric G

      "You have ten major Body Parts and we have 10 COMMANDMENTS. Why do we have 10 TOES? Why do we have 10 FINGERS? EVOLUTION? I THINK NOT!"

      Post of the day!!!!

      Wow, I don't have enough bread crumbs to find my way home from that one!
      We have 10 fingers and toes becuase we are apes. All apes have 10 fingers and toes.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      LOL. Believing in that fairy tale means that a lot of your relatives didn't evolve.

      Too funny. You kids will believe anything except for Jesus' truth.

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • Jodi

      Heavensent it's worse to believe in an ancient book with absolutely no evidence of this god, none. If it was true there would be evidence to back up your theory, there is none. That is what is so foolish of people like you, learn to love yourself instead of believing your imaginary friend does.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:36 pm |
    • Response

      So, first there was nothing. Then nothing exploded (for no apparent reason), and BANG, there's a universe. OR, there was just god (and nothing else), who said LET THERE BE .., and poof, there it is.

      So, we choose either to believe a book written a long time ago by some guys, or we choose to believe books written by some guys recently. OR, we can simply shrug and say "I really haven't a clue".

      May 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • 1word

      It's funny how these guys can believe Science but not believe a book that has stand the test of time. You don't believe God is real, thats cool. I know he's real, and I know that the stories in the Bible are true. I have experience the Holy Spirit, after giving my life to Christ I was given the Comforter "Holy Ghost" and I feel it when I'm praying, in church and even if I hear a gospel song. Only those who have the Holy Ghost understands what I'm talking about. So believe what you want but you will answer to God!

      May 23, 2011 at 10:22 pm |
  17. CW

    To all,

    This lifestyle is WRONG!!!!!!! See 1 Corithian's 6:9 or Romans 1.

    May 23, 2011 at 1:49 pm |
    • dalis

      Read Romans 2:1-2.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • CW

      @ dalis,

      Your right...not passing judgement on anyone. This is a wrong behavior...its sin....you can call it whatever you want...stealing is stealing isn't it?

      If someone is doing wrong you would encourage them to do the "right" thing wouldn't you?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:29 pm |
    • dalis

      I would remove the pillar from my own eye before I even dreamed of addressing the mote in another's. And I wouldn't do it on a CNN message board.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:31 pm |
    • Artist

      CW

      To all,

      This lifestyle is WRONG!!!!!!! See 1 Corithian's 6:9 or Romans 1
      -------
      A man's opinion has very little value. At least give a forged quote directly from jebus.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:33 pm |
    • CW

      @ dalis,

      You and can disagree...I guess in your eyes we can't "judge" right from wrong right? I never said I'm perfect....but since were on the "judging" subject....didn't you do the same to me?

      Peace.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:37 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, using "your' when you mean "you're" is wrong, yet still you sin, you idiot.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:32 pm |
  18. Elite

    Gays are alright.

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L-KrOoz_mg&w=640&h=390]

    May 23, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
  19. Jeff M

    @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
    I never heard a response from you about the following questions:
    1) Why you believe that the Earth is significantly older than Creationists
    2) What system of beliefs you adhere to and why

    May 23, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Eric G

      Sorry Tom, I could not let this one go by.

      I do not believe that the world is older than claimed by creationists. I know that it is because of the verified evidence that supports the theory. This evidence has been tested and verified and is now demonstrative. Belief is not required for me to understand the theory and evidence that supports it is true, only an education.

      If you subscribe to the creation theory, you must have supporting evidence that can be verified. Please present your evidence for verification and it will be evaluated with the same level of scrutiny as the Big Bang theory.

      Becuase the evidence supporting the Big Bang theory is demonstrative, the support of Creation theory without evidencial support is illogical. Your position must be based in one of the following two options.

      1. You do not understand the Big Bang theory or the verified evidence that supports it. This is called an argument from ignorance.

      2. You do understand the Big Bang theory and the evidence that supports it, but choose to deny it's existence becuase it does not support your world view. This is an argument from dishonesty.

      Ignorant or dishonest.

      Please clarify which position your future posts will be based on prior to submission.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:13 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Eric G
      Yay, a response! I believe in a literal Creation, as described explicitly in Genesis. Ken Ham expands on how this is Scientifically theoretical (just to be accurate) on AnswersInGenesis.org. Now, we can banter back and forth about how it's not scientific, etc...but you will have a hard time convincing me that Big Bang is any more scientific:
      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/big-bang-gods-chosen-method

      May 23, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Jeff M

      Which is the better term here...: theoretical...possible...??? Oh well, you get the drift.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Eric G
      Sorry, you cannot "know" that the Earth is older than Creationists claim it is. You were not there to scientifically observe the event. The closest "evidence" you can have is Carbon-based dating...which is only accurate to a few thousand years. The theoretical/hypothetical history of Earth cannot be conclusively defined by any individual, group, system of beliefs, etc. I *believe* the Earth is approximate 6500 years old. You cannot *know*, and neither can I. Neither of us are all-knowing, nor can we prove otherwise.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • CW

      @ Jeff M,

      You have to remember there are a lot of folks that believe in "the man" and all his wise "science". Sounds like what God did in Genesis doesn't it....Man started to build a tower...God had to knock it down to prove that "the man" isn't all he thinks he is.

      Like you post to me by the way on this subject....peace.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:33 pm |
    • Artist

      Jeff M

      @Eric G
      I *believe* the Earth is approximate 6500 years old. You cannot *know*, and neither can I. Neither of us are all-knowing, nor can we prove otherwise.
      ...........
      Wow, I hope you are kidding. If not, you self denial is beyond amazing. I am surprised you still don't believe the Earth is flat. lol

      May 23, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @CW
      It seems like Eric G at least wants a thought-provoking conversation...so I'm hoping we develop a good dialogue. On the other hand, Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son has yet to respond.

      I honestly think it's hard for the world to believe that a Christian actually wants to listen to what they have to say. Part of that is because of history *most* faiths have when dealing with "non-believers"...so we do have ourselves to blame partially. It's still a choice, though. I just hope that we Christians can dis-spell the lack of understanding about how "open-minded" we really are. It's like we are being type-cast in a badly produced film. Oh well, nobody ever said it would be easy, right?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • Eric G

      "Now, we can banter back and forth about how it's not scientific, etc...but you will have a hard time convincing me that Big Bang is any more scientific"

      Thank you for proving my point. I do not need to "convince" you of fact based on verified evidence. "Convincing" is not what you need. Education is what you need. Please google "Father George Coyne".

      I see that you have chosen ignorance as your default position.

      By the way.....

      Isn't Ken Ham the guy that thinks dinosaurs and humans walked the planet together?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Artist
      "Wow, I hope you are kidding. If not, you self denial is beyond amazing. I am surprised you still don't believe the Earth is flat. lol"

      Explain, please. We are trying to have an coherent conversation, avoiding unsubstantiated claims.
      1) What is your system of belief and why?
      2) Why would you surmise that I am kidding?

      May 23, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Eric G
      Sorry, I shouldn't have attempted to "imply" something, but rather spell it straight out. I didn't mean to get to far ahead in our discussion, just thought I'd save time of us having to actually go over it. So just to set it straight (and let me know if I'm making an assumption on #1. #3 is pretty obvious, but wanted to set it straight anyway):
      1) I know you are going to argue that Creationism is not scientific
      2) I can just as easily argue that Big Bang is not scientific
      3) Neither of us can actually prove each other wrong, as they are both theories and neither of us actually witnessed the formation of the Earth when it happened.

      You perceive that I am ignorant (having a lack of knowledge, can be topic-specific) about the origins of Earth, and I say science is just as ignorant.

      As for your 2 arguments about Big Bang:
      "1. You do not understand the Big Bang theory or the verified evidence that supports it. This is called an argument from ignorance.

      2. You do understand the Big Bang theory and the evidence that supports it, but choose to deny it's existence becuase it does not support your world view. This is an argument from dishonesty."

      The resulting "this is called.." is simply speculative and ignorant in and of itself. Let's get past this and actually get to why YOU believe in Big Bang over any religion, shall we? I'll try not to jump too far ahead.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • CW

      @ EricG,

      Sorry Jeff I just had to respond.

      Eric you say:
      Thank you for proving my point. I do not need to "convince" you of fact based on verified evidence. "Convincing" is not what you need. Education is what you need. Please google "Father George Coyne".

      I see that you have chosen ignorance as your default position.

      By the way.....

      Isn't Ken Ham the guy that thinks dinosaurs and humans walked the planet together?

      ----------------------------------

      I say:

      What you don't understand is this. You see the Big Bang theory...notice I said "theory" is just that. Man has provided some detail...just like every other scientist has provided "some" evidence as you call it to support his or her "theory". Here is where things get off track...I CHOSE to believe in the word of God...to be infallible I might add. You CHOSE to believe in "the man's" wise science...that is your choice believe me. So..let me ask..do you believe in all the other so called "theories" as well?...they also provide some so called "convincing" evidence as well.

      On the dinosaurs comment....I believe in God...I believe God used man to write his perfect word. Yes...I believe that God created dino's....None of us were really there to know how man interacted with the dino's just like your don't know for sure if the "big bang theory" is what caused the earth but...like I said its a choice.

      May 23, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @CW: no worries

      @Eric G: "Isn't Ken Ham the guy that thinks dinosaurs and humans walked the planet together?" I do love that line. Laugh it off all you want, some people feel the same way about "millions of years" and Evolution.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • ok

      "Laugh it off all you want, some people feel the same way about "millions of years" and Evolution."

      So then prove your god exists.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:10 pm |
    • Eric G

      Please present the evidence that supports your argument against the Big Bang theory.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:13 pm |
    • maggie

      Listen Genesis 1: 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That statement in genesis 1: 1 is true regardless how old the earth is. We do not know when was the beginning. It could be billions, millions, thousands regardless the statement stay true. I love the bible because it is constant. The word of God stays the same just like God.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:32 pm |
    • Erin

      "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

      Prove it.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • Eric G

      @maggie: Sorry, logic penalty on the play! "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

      You must first prove that your god exists before you can attribute actions to it.

      Two minute penalty for argument from as-sumption.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      There are 3 earth and 3 heaven ages written in the Bible. The first earth age was destroyed by God. This 2nd earth age is what we live in today. The 3rd earth and 3 heaven is when Jesus returns.

      Read your Bibles and learn how to cross reference the books in the Bibles. If you don't know what happened in the beginning, you certainly won't comprehend it now.

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • Response

      Why couldn't god create a mature universe?

      May 23, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
    • Amye

      Call me ignorant if you wish, but (as I have never studied the bible and only know parts of the study of evolution) what would be wrong in believing God created "The Big Bang" & evolution followed?

      May 23, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
    • Stew

      "The Big Bang" & evolution followed?"

      Because...the bible says god created everything in 7 days! LOL!

      May 23, 2011 at 3:49 pm |
    • Eric G

      @HeavenSent: I think someone slipped a "Lord of the Rings" book in with your Bible comics again.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Life is a test from God. You have 2 choices with the free will He gave us. Love and follow Jesus (truth) and live spiritually while on earth as it is in heaven and dwell with Him for eternity, or, love and follow satan (lies), die spiritually while here on earth, die, go to paradise, after the Day of the Lord, you still refuse to love and follow Him, he'll grant you your wish, go to the eternal flames, blotted out, no eternity for you.

      He made All for His pleasure. Do you honestly thinking hating Him or not believing in Him pleases Him?

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
    • Question

      "satan "

      Prove this satan exists.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Eric G. It's not my fault that you don't know how to read the Bible and listen to others that don't know what's in it's pages either.

      2 Peter 3 is a good start.

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:04 pm |
    • Eric G

      @HeavenSent: Are you sure there can be no other options? Are you so arrogant that you deny the possibility that there is no god? Doesn't your god sound a little self centered? Doesn't he sound like someone with low self esteem? Doesn't he sound violent and vindictive and jealous?

      Can you be open minded and adress these questions?

      I will ask you again to present any evidence to support your claims for verification. Please do not respond in your usual manner of threats.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:04 pm |
    • Response

      Neither side can "prove" their position.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @ok & Eric G
      Sorry for the late response, got tied up with work. I think I've pretty well summed up my reasoning as to why I do not accept the Big Bang *theory*. You can read all about it here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/big-bang-gods-chosen-method

      You ask me to prove that God exists, I ask you to prove He does *not* exist. Neither of us will be able to provide such evidence that will satisfy either one of us, so why bother?

      In reality, it comes down to one simple word. It's the same reasoning why you believe in the Big Bang theory, or any other theory postulated by science: faith.

      Faith is simply "belief in and assent to the truth of what is declared by another, based on his or her supposed authority and truthfulness."

      You place your faith in flawed humans that have studied countless hours and earned various degrees on a finite understanding of the origins of our planet and everything in it. I put my faith in believing that the flawed humans that recorded "God's Word" were inspired to do so directly by God, and that what they wrote was as accurate as their understanding and knowledge could provide them with the ability to reason and subsequently explain through written word.

      Could all Big Bang scientists being in a secret organization that is trying desperately to oust religion? Sure, they could be.
      Could Moses have been taking a hit off the "good stuff" while he was penning the Pentateuch? Sure he *could* have.
      The truth is, none of us can say with absolute certainty. Hence we all have our systems of belief that we adhere to out of faith.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No problem here, Eric G. The clue to Jeffy's problem is found in the first two words of his response to you: "I believe".

      He is nothing more than a fundie who swallows nonsense rather than reason. Nothing any person writes will convince idiots like him that evolution is not a theory in the sense that he understands the word. He doesn't quite grasp that 'theory' in scientific terms is not something that is just a "guess".

      That's what you get when you go to a Bible college.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
    • derp

      "Neither side can "prove" their position."

      That's true tiday. But science is slowly but surely showing is the facts as they are. Christianity held that the world was flat, and that it was the center of the universe.

      Science has shown that to be untrue.

      Christianity has told us that the world is 6000 years old. The science has shown us that it is closer to 2.5 billion years old. Christianity professed that god waved his magic wand whipped up humans in a day, 6000 years ago. Modern molecular biology has shown that we have been around in some form or another for 100,000 years.

      Science does not have all of the verifiable answers.....yet. In 100 years we went from not being able to fly, to exploring our universe and mapping our DNA. We are making exponential discoveries year after year. We will ultimatley find the answers.

      Christianity has not really advanced at all any kind of intelligent thought. Some of the greatest minds of our human history were in fact persecuted by religion. Religion has not produced a single advancement, or answers to any questions about our origins or history in the last 2000. Christianity still holds to the completely scienece devoid pontifications of near illiterate bronze age nomads. I'm sorry, I'd like better than that for my children.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
    • Frank

      @Amye, the answer to your question: Because fundies won't accept anything that isn't in the bible. Because the bible says that god created the earth in 6 days in exactly the way described in genesis, they refuse to accept any other explanation. You may ask yourself: what about fossils? They have two convenient answers. 1. the devil did it to confuse humans. 2. the evidence is wrong and those fossils are only 6,000 years old. When fossils of extinct creatures started showing up "naturalist circles" in the 1800s, fundies of the time were all in the first group. Only as their position looks more ridiculous did they start migrating to option 2. Does that answer your question?

      May 23, 2011 at 4:39 pm |
    • Eric G

      I am sorry Jeff. You have been a good sport about this, and I think you really do believe what you say.

      Faith is belief without, (and in many cases) in spite of evidence.

      My understanding of the Big Bang theory is not belief because I can do the math that proves the theory based on evidence. In all of your posts, you have provided no evidence to support your claim.

      Creation theory and Big Bang theory are separate theories. All theories carry their own burden of proof based on the claims they make. Verified evidence supporting Big Bang theory is demonstrative. It is fact regardless of your acceptance. Creation theory has no verifiable evidencial support.

      You are attempting to put our positions on equal footing when you have not presented any evidence to support your theory. Your link attempts to disprove Big Bang theory but provides no evidence to support Creation theory.

      The difference between your position and mine is evidence. Without it, your position is a hypothesis at best.

      But, thanks for playing!

      May 23, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • BRC

      @Jeff M
      Not to interupt your conversation, but you have a flawed assumption that I think should probably be addressed. You stated that Carbon Dating was our only evidence for determining the Earth's age (which isn't true, any consistantly decaying radiological material will work) and that that was only good to a few thousand years. It is, in point of fact, measurable to over 50,000 years, many times your suggested timeline.
      And I don't want to put words in someone else's mouth, but I think why someone might assume you're kidding, is because you are making an argument that INTENTIONALLY either ignores or directly dissagrees with confirmed facts.
      We can observe rather convincing evidence that the universe is currently in an expanding state, and I could say that it was because of an "explosion" caused by the interactions between the forces that govern our universe, and you can say that a god came by and willed into creation all that we can now see and know, then gave it a pushed, and stepped back to watch; and we have to kind of call it a draw at that point until someone finds some new evidence (my money is on science).
      BUT, if I say radiocarbon dating shows that the world is well over 6500 years old (a laughably small number given the proven times), and someone else claims "no, it was formed as one no more than 6500 years ago" (I am in no way saying the bible says that or that it is a major belief, this is just two individuals), it's not a debate or a difference of opinion; one person is right, adn the other person is very wrong, for some strange reason on purpose since they've been teaching the facts of radiological dating in almost every low level earth science class (I learned about it in middle school) for decades now. That part just doesn't make any sense, and when someone is willing to believe that, if forces you to question the other things they say.

      May 23, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
    • Artist

      Jeff M

      @Artist
      "Wow, I hope you are kidding. If not, you self denial is beyond amazing. I am surprised you still don't believe the Earth is flat. lol"

      Explain, please. We are trying to have an coherent conversation, avoiding unsubstantiated claims.
      1) What is your system of belief and why?
      2) Why would you surmise that I am kidding?

      ------------------

      Alright then you are serious. Talking to someone who actually thinks the Eart is only 6500 year sold is a rarety in this day and age...I might be a little rusty. For starters the splitting of the continents...plate tetonics. The plates move at a certain rate of speed. The old classic is the Grand Canyon. We will start with these.
      .
      A side question is do you believe the universe is the same age? Do you believe the moon and other planets in our system are the same age?

      May 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Eric G
      Thanks, I really like having discussions about all this... I walk away pretty energized from most of it.

      As for me providing proof the Creation is factual, I can only cite the Bible. You and I both know it. I can only stand on the shoulders of Moses and repeat what I've been told, and have faith that it is accurate.

      As for Big Bang, I would be interested to see how your calculations and research is able to substantially dis-prove the information in the link I sent previously. Let me check them both over, and I'll be happy to get back to you.

      Let me be absolutely honest: I do not *believe* that the Big Bang ever occurred. Even modern science still labels it as a theory, and cannot be considered factual. The same can be said of God and Creation.

      You will look at this information and see my bias. I will look at your information and see your bias.

      The truth is, neither of us can absolutely *prove* that either of our theories is factual. We can both admit this, or we can lie.

      By the way, there is one other glaring difference in our "theories": yours is at the mercy of science and discoveries that change information routinely – whereas Christianity's "theory" is static and has yet to be proven false after approximately 1300 years.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
    • huh?

      "By the way, there is one other glaring difference in our "theories": yours is at the mercy of science and discoveries that change information routinely – whereas Christianity's "theory" is static and has yet to be proven false after approximately 1300 years."

      That's why there are numerous versions of the bible and churches of Christianity.Then there are the numerous contradictions in the Bible. The problem is you probably don't bother researching those issues.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @BRC
      No problem in my book, I like discussion that encourages thought. It's not flawed, it's under debate. "Pure" (aka Secular) science dictates that it's accurate to over 50,000 years, which is still but a fraction of the proposed age of the Earth. Creation science purports that Carbon Dating (specifically C-14) is only accurate to a few thousand years. Creation science also notes that Secular science intentionally chooses not to look at the effects global flooding (as claimed in the Bible) would have on the dating methods used currently.

      It's interesting that you can make the statement that I am "making an argument that INTENTIONALLY either ignores or directly dissagrees with confirmed facts." Then you proceed to mention the universe and it's "rather convincing evidence" of a state of expansion (which I am not actually debating against) is proof enough of Big Bang, and then make some statement about radioactive dating...I'll admit, you might need to go a bit slower on me...because I'm still trying to find "evidence" in any of this. It's all theory.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @huh?
      I think you are confused. None of the translations have any differences in the account of Genesis. Sun rose, sun set, next day. God created it all in 6 days and rested. So and so begat so and so...., and they survived for x number of years. Pretty easy to add up...even in Hebrew.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @huh?
      Sorry, not Genesis...pretty much the first five books of the Bible (written by Moses...commonly called the Pentateuch).

      May 23, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • derp

      "Christianity's "theory" is static and has yet to be proven false after approximately 1300 years."

      That is because you cannot disprove make believe.

      I think my grass turned greener because magic fairies came out overnight and sprinkled magic green dust on my lawn. My wife, a biologist, says it's from the nitrogen in the fertilizer I spead a couple weekends ago.

      She can't prove me wrong. 1300 years from now she will still not be able to prove that magic fairies did not make the grass greener. I guess we all should believe in magic green dust spreading fairies, because science can't prove they do not exist.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:26 pm |
    • Eric G

      @Jeff M: Let me try a different track.........

      You stated something to the effect that you cannot provide any evidence to support your claim and that the bible is good enough for you because you have faith in it's accuracy. This would imply that you deem your faith as a more useful path to truth than evidence. If this is the case, why do you try to use pseudo-evidence to disprove the Big Bang theory?

      Let's try a hypothetical excercise........

      Let's as-sume that you could provide demonstrative, verifiable evidence that the Big Bang theory is incorrect.
      Would that make Creation theory correct? Would that satisfy the burden of proof that the Creation theory has?

      The Big Bang theory does not say anything about the existence of your god. It simply provides an explaination to an event that is supported by verifiable, testable evidence. Your god is not a necessary variable in the theory.

      If you cannot prove your theory, why do you find it so necessary to try to disprove another? Doing so will not make creation theory correct.

      May 23, 2011 at 5:34 pm |
    • Artist

      Also have the creationists spent equal time evaluating the origins of their bible and similar myths prior to the writings?

      May 23, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • Gina

      Probably not Artist or they would have realized all the similarities to other religions of that time. Oh...but wait...those were pagan religions not Christianity. LOL!

      May 23, 2011 at 6:04 pm |
    • Eric G

      @Artist: SHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You will scare them all away!

      May 23, 2011 at 6:10 pm |
    • Artist

      Gina

      Probably not Artist or they would have realized all the similarities to other religions of that time. Oh...but wait...those were pagan religions not Christianity. LOL!

      May 23, 2011 at 6:04 pm | Report abuse |
      Eric G

      @Artist: SHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You will scare them all away!

      ------------

      Believe it or not it was a serious question. When you look at how the bible was created then you factor in prior myths that pretty much resemble the bible, I find it facinating that people still see it as credible. You have a nomadic tribe copying stories that they came across and claimed as their own. Then you have a complete 3rd hand new testiment spruced up with some opinions of a few men. And then a council dictated what books were considered "truth" and what wasn't. To me the bible represents the amazing power of ignorance/deception. But that is my humble opinion

      May 23, 2011 at 6:34 pm |
    • BRC

      @Jeff
      Sorry about the delay. First I'll clarify one point, I actually didn't say that the evidence of the universe expanding (one of the most obvious and observable pieces being the "red shift" the is a measurable elongation of wavelengths of light and other electromagnetic signals due to the doppler effect, indicating that the sources are moving farther apart); I simply said that it was evidence that the universe was expanding. As of now I can no more prove that the big bang is the cause than someone else can prove that it was caused by a god (though I do believe at some point we will develop the proof one way or another and I personally am betting on science). So the only fact that I was asserting was that there is evidence that the universe was expanding (which I just provided), I asserted no conclusion from that evidence. SO, I have no problem saying that the 6500 year argument intentionally ignores facts.

      Which brings us to the next point, the validity of carbon dating. I was unaware that there were actually scientists claiming that carbon dating becomes "inaccurate" beyond a few thousand years. Without trying to turn this into a he said-they said, I can only point out that everything that has been observed radioisotope half-lives behave in EXTREMELY predictable patterns, as in there is no reason I have heard of that would cause the Carbon's breakdown to change over the course of its lifetime.

      As for the flood, with out going a bit over my head in trying to give a brief summary of how carbon decay works, it is a process that occurs at an atomic level, and that would be COMPLETELY unaffected by being immersed in water, even if if it was 40 years let alone 40 days (I feel the need to point out that before someone can claim that a global flood could change the decay patterns of carbon isotopes, they would have to provide some proof that there actually was a global flood, and up to this point I have never heard any that was convincing, or any at all really).

      The issue is really evidence. The points that I consider valid and important have actual empirically observed and proven foundations. The counter arguments are based on words, nothing more; and they aren't even words that can be backed up....except by more older words.

      May 23, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • Artist

      BRC, my understanding is they have proven the Earth was not submerged underwater in the past 6500 to 11000 years. The creationists have since adjusted their view to "regional" flood to accomidate scientific findings. However their "true word of god clearly states the earth". The writers had no concept that science would one day prove the story quite false. Example, mormons believe there was a tribe of israel that came over here. DNA and testing cleary show they did not. The creator of the Mormon bible had no concept that one day it would be proven quite false. As man progresses, more light will be cast on the ignorance. The bible, koran etc will be dismantled and shown for what they truly are. Until then enjoy the Belief blog.

      May 23, 2011 at 6:56 pm |
    • civiloutside

      Just want to toss a few things out here that might help the conversation.

      First, Carbon 14 decays so quickly that after about 60,000 years there isn't enough measurable in a given sample to do any dating. It is absolutely correct that C-14 cannot be used to come up with the ~4 billion year age of the earth. It may come as a surprise to at least one side of this argument to learn that "secular" geologists are also smart enough to figure out this little nugget. That's why they don't use C-14 to date the age of the earth. They use other isotopes that decay at a lower rate, such as Uranium-lead, potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, et al. Usually, they run multiple methods as a crosscheck against each other. Anyone who tells you that the earth can't be billions of years old because C-14 can only measure a few tens of thousands of years is either lying about the method, or is ignorant about it.

      The Bible never changing over the course of 1300 years is only a virtue if it's correct. If it's incorrect, then it's the grossest of willful ignorance. Plus... it's not even true that the Bible has been unchanged. Read a Catholic Bible, and a Protestant one (or even just compare their Table of Contents), and you will find they are different books. There are articles on this very site summarizing just some of the many alterations the Bible has undergone over the years.

      It also does no one any favors to vilify scientific theories for changing as if scientists whip up theories on a whim. A scientific theory only changes if there is evidence to indicate that the new theory represents a more accurate description of the world than the old theory. In this way, scientific theories tend to become *more accurate over time,* not bouncing about willy-nilly as some arguers like to imply.

      As for Big Bang versus Biblical Creation, well, you can only call both of them theories in the scientific sense if they are both testable against the evidence. For that, you can only talk about literal interpretations of the Bible – if you argue that it's metaphorical then the descriptions cannot be taken at face value, they imply nothing about the structure of the universe, and therefore imply no real-world testable phenomena.

      Now, each theory implies certain things about the universe that we can observe to see how well they match up. Just a few examples...

      The Big Bang states explosion from a singularity. This implies that 1) matter in the universe will be spreading outward from a central point, 2) physical properties of matter will determine their distribution within that expanding cloud (such as, for example, matter coalescing due to gravitational forces with denser matter tending to be closer to the center, 3) the Earth is very likely not the center of the universe, 4) other objects in the universe (including sun and stars) may be older than the earth.

      Biblical creation implies 1) Daylight exists independently of the sun or any other source of light, 2) the sun, moon, and stars are all younger than the earth, 3) flying creatures predate walking creatures.

      Since some of these implications contradict each other, one should look at which ones agree with the evidence.

      May 23, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
    • Jeff M

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
      "No problem here, Eric G. The clue to Jeffy's problem is found in the first two words of his response to you: "I believe"."

      The clue to your problem is that arrogance at being able to claim you "know" the origins of the Earth. You have the same problem as I do, we both have *theories* – and ones we both hold tightly to.

      I'll say it again: none of us can claim with absolute ability to prove scientifically that our theories are correct. None of us were at the formation of our world or the beginnings of life. If we were and actually had the "proof" required, then there would be no more theories, only fact. To attempt to refute this is to display your own ignorance, arrogance, or both.

      May 24, 2011 at 9:22 am |
    • Jeff M

      @Eric G
      Sorry, just getting back to something you posted earlier and then I'll answer your hypothesis aftewards.
      First, you state this:
      "My understanding of the Big Bang theory is not belief because I can do the math that proves the theory based on evidence. In all of your posts, you have provided no evidence to support your claim."

      Then you state the following:
      "Creation theory and Big Bang theory are separate theories. All theories carry their own burden of proof based on the claims they make. Verified evidence supporting Big Bang theory is demonstrative. It is fact regardless of your acceptance. Creation theory has no verifiable evidencial support."

      Evidence is interpreted by bias. The problem is that, with Big Bang, Evolution is often thrown into the mix. Do I believe that the Big Bang could have happened and still align with Scripture? Sure...God spoke, and BANG! Sounds good to me. That would still not contradict the Bible...at least that portion of it wouldn't. To say that millions/billions of years + evolution = where we are today is in direct contradiction to the Bible, which is what I reject. So it all depends...what is your understanding of what the Big Bang theory encompasses? If it is simply used to explain the process by which our Universe began formation, and not the proposed timeframe that it happened within, I'm fine with it. The problem where secular science often collides with Biblical definition is that science says it took x number of years, whereas God says He created it ALL in 6 days.

      As for your hypothesis, I'll go along with it. No, proving Big Bang incorrect does NOT validate any other theory...it simply invalidates in now-invalid theory. But...you knew I was going to answer it that way, right? Back to the original point of yours: where is the Christian evidence that the Biblical account of Creation is the correct theory? I've already said it, so I'll repeat: Evidence is interpreted by bias. When interpreting evidence, we taken it from our current ability to process, organize, and categorize it. How we perform these functions is based largely on our decision of what belief system we are adhering to. I claim Christianity as my bias, and you claim secular science as yours. I claim the Bible to understand and interpret the evidence. You claim dynamic human understanding to interpret yours. The more science "uncovers", the more susceptible your evidence is to change the interpretation. My belief system is static. Good, bad, or indifferent – you and I have both chosen our paths.

      May 24, 2011 at 9:36 am |
    • Response

      To derp,

      Let me know when. I'd love to have fact instead of theory. Apart from the theatrics, I agree with most assertions. Science however, has had it's share of goofs through the years as well. I notice you failed to point any out, but you obviously were not attempting to be objective. Anyway, thanks for the response. Take care.

      May 24, 2011 at 4:10 pm |
  20. Luscara

    I wanted to simply say that I love this article. The message is something that I agree with strongly because I grew up in a similar religious situation. My mother is Catholic and my Gran was Baptist, so Sunday morning consisted of going to 9am services with Gran and 11am Mass with my mom. The confusion of the two, very different, views of the Bible along with contradicting theories on what is socially acceptable made me second guess most decisions I made as a teenager.
    This is an inspiring article about facing your own religious demons to accept who you are. Thank you for sharing.

    May 23, 2011 at 1:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Luscara, no where in your statement did you mention that you've read the Bible on your own to learn first hand what Jesus wants for you and what Jesus wants from you. Do you see where the fault was created?

      Amen.

      May 23, 2011 at 3:36 pm |
    • Artist

      HeavenSent

      Luscara, no where in your statement did you mention that you've read the Bible on your own to learn first hand what Jesus wants for you and what Jesus wants from you. Do you see where the fault was created?

      Amen.

      ---------–
      You missed her point. I think you were finding your own point for your post.
      .
      Let me help, she is simply noting there was confusion as child/teenager because she had to go to two very different churches. This had an effect on her "as a teenager". I am sure there are a lot of things she didn't mention. But then again was there a need because it is quite clear what she was saying.

      May 23, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
    • Brian

      "You missed her point. I think you were finding your own point for your post."

      What is scary about this HeavenSent is the fact they did miss the point but they think their interpretation of the bible is the correct one. The obvious lack of reading comprehension proves otherwise. Scary and it's not even Halloween yet.

      May 23, 2011 at 6:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Brian and Artist you both are going to hell so I really do not have to address you. Adding to what I was saying, Luscara clearly the Catholic Church was causing you problems. You should have been smart enough as a teenager to see this.
      Amen..

      May 23, 2011 at 7:02 pm |
    • LOL

      "Brian and Artist you both are going to hell so I really do not have to address you."

      But you did by stating they are going to hell. What a judgmental idiot.

      May 23, 2011 at 7:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Lol you do not know the bible like I do. So I am laughing at you.
      Amen..

      May 23, 2011 at 7:34 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.