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 Don Lemon with his grandmother on his third birthday.
May 22nd, 2011
01:00 AM ET
My Faith: How I learned to stop 'praying away the gay'Editor's Note: Don Lemon is a CNN anchor and author of Transparent, a memoir . By Don Lemon, CNN "School day, time to get up, sleepy head. School day." Although she's been gone since 1998, my grandmother's words ring in my head just about every morning of my life. That's how MaMe, as I called her, got me out of bed and off to my Catholic school when I was growing up and in her care. But before I shuffled my way to the bathroom to begin my morning routine, I had to hit the floor on my knees to pray, just as I had the night before. It was usually The Lord's Prayer ("Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...") followed by asking God to watch and guide me through my day until I returned to the safety of my home that evening. But MaMe (pronounced MAH-me) didn't know that at a very early age her favorite grandson had begun to pray, silently, that God would change him from being different, from having crushes on boys, from being more curious about boys than girls. By age four or five, I was too young to sexualize my infatuations but I knew that everyone else, including my family and friends, would think it was wrong. Perhaps it was the conversations I overheard from adults around my hometown of Port Allen, Louisiana, who'd mimic gay people, calling them "funny" or "sissy" or "fagots." Perhaps it was Sunday mornings at our Baptist church, where preachers taught that liking someone of the same sex was a direct and swift path to hell. And that if that person would just turn to the Lord and confess his sin, then God would change him back into the person He wanted him to be - a person who only had crushes on the opposite sex. All of which meant that, from a very early age, I began to think I was dirty and that I was going to hell. Can you imagine what that feels like for a kid who was just learning to read and perform basic arithmetic? It was awful. And talk about guilt - I was a Baptist attending Catholic school! I prayed the silent prayer for God to change me every chance I got until I started attending college in New York. That's when common sense began to take hold and I realized that no amount of prayer would change me into something that wasn't natural to me. With my religious upbringing, I'd had the opportunity to study religious doctrine. But I learned from different perspectives, from Catholic Mass on Fridays to Baptist services on Sundays to vacation Bible school in the summer to Bible study with a Jehovah's Witness as a teenager. As I got older I began to realize that all these people and institutions interpreted the Bible somewhat differently. I had a sort of epiphany: the Bible was about the lessons you learned, not about the events or words. When I became old enough, intelligent enough and logical enough to discern the difference between metaphor and reality, everything changed. I realized that Jonah living in the belly of a whale was a parable written in the same vein as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. saying that he had "been to the mountaintop." Neither Jonah nor King had actually been to those places. They were metaphors for lessons for those of us who cared to absorb them. So many of us, especially in the black community and in churches, tend to think that religious teachings happened word for word as they were written in Scripture. I think that's naïve, even dangerous. That type of thinking - or non-thinking - keeps many religious people enslaved to beliefs that they haven't truly stepped back from and examined. That type of thinking causes people who are otherwise good to shun and ostracize young gay people. It causes people to want to control and change people who aren't like them. And who wants to be like someone else? Imagine if we had allowed Christian doctrines and teachings that supported slavery, segregation and the subjugation of women to pervade our society all the way up until the current moment. What kind of world would that be? Instead, we got on our knees, just as I did as a little boy, and prayed that slavery, segregation and the subjugation of women would end. In the United States, at least, those prayers have largely been realized. I'm no longer the member of any church but I do believe in a higher power. It's time for us, especially black people, to stop trying to pray the gay away and to get on our knees and start praying that the discrimination of gay people ends. What we're doing to our young gay people now is child abuse. It's plain old bigotry and hatred. And if African-Americans don't know what that feels like in America, I don't know who does. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Don Lemon. soundoff (4,733 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I truly have not been any happier, since I completely took god out of my mind. I feel so happy knowing I am not a blind follower as most people. I am a proud Atheist, and I live a life full of happiness, family, values, compassion, respect. All people believe in god solely because it was deep rooted into their mind since they were born. It takes a great sophisticated mind to free itself from religious slavery. I am happy I have one, and began to free it since the age of 13, I am 32 now. I wish many people would come to my side and realize that one is able to be immensely happy, respectful, compassionate, without god and its man-made rules.
Well said. Thank you for posting this.
You are taking the lazy and easy way. You are also going to hell if you continue this path with your self serving ego.
Amen.
HeavenSent you are already headed there. LOL!
Personally, I am not an atheist, nor have I ever been, but I also had to leave Christianity in order to find peace and happiness.
I might have a different story if the kind of Christianity I found myself in were different, but I don't regret much in life. Everything I have been through has brought me to where I am today. And I'm pretty happy. My deepest regrets come from the time I was Christian though, when hatred spewed from me under the guise of "loving" sinners and seeking to save them. I never realized just how I sounded.
Phony heavensent, having fun talking with yourself as you answer as LOL!
Amen.
@Eric G
I still have to laugh at this one...just too good:
"If you cannot do so, sit quietly while the adults talk."
Oh man..it gave me a chuckle. Sounds like when I'm talking with my wife and the kids keep interrupting. Gotta love 'em though...they are a hoot!
Free
HeavenSent
I'll be the first to admit that I could be completely wrong here. Had Jesus actually came back on Saturday and left all the gay people on earth I would've taken that as pretty conclusive evidence that he didn't like them much. However, if he had raptured a number of them not on their choice of mate, but based on the same standard of goodness he leveled on you, then I would have been right about this all along.
Again, however, are you humble enough to admit that you could be the one wrong here?
--------
God's truth is never wrong, therefore I cannot be wrong.
Amen.
i posted this below deep within replies, but am re-posting here so it isn't lost.
The sooner we all realize that religion is akin to mental illness, the better off we will all be. HeavenSent does nothing but cite Jesus and/or God and/or something within the bible that helps to illustrate his point, at which time he says "Amen" afterwards. He is not living in the real world. The real problem is that his religion was designed in an "air tight" method so they will always have an answer to everything. What they fail to realize is their religion, and all others on this planet, are completely bogus. The universe is bigger, older and wiser than any of you. And it's been here a gazillion years... Your religions are less than infants.
Mike taking the easy and laxy road. You will be blotted out forever. Seek Jesus or perish. Gays you need to get right with Jesus and change your ways of Satan.
Amen..
HeavenSent, I think the easy way out is being a follower. It's much harder to look at the universe from your own perspective and try to make sense of it all without relying on what has been told to you. You are blind to your own mental illness. I feel sorry for you and others like you, and that is in no way meant to insult you.
and I will never "seek Jesus" because I am mentally sound. i am of a growing number of people on this planet who realize there is no truth in religion. you can be a good person and do great good on this earth and live a happy, prosperous life, and not seek jesus. it's a cult which i have no interest in being a part of.
HeavenSent
"God's truth is never wrong, therefore I cannot be wrong."
That only applies if there is a God and you do, in fact, represent his will accurately. Millions of atheists think you're wrong in the first point, and millions of Christians think you're wrong in the second. For either reason, it's completely valid for all of us to disregard what you have to say, and we will. 🙂
Free
HeavenSent
"God's truth is never wrong, therefore I cannot be wrong."
That only applies if there is a God and you do, in fact, represent his will accurately. Millions of atheists think you're wrong in the first point, and millions of Christians think you're wrong in the second. For either reason, it's completely valid for all of us to disregard what you have to say, and we will.
I do not concern myself with the opinions of people who are going to be blotted out for eternity and backsliding and backstabbing Christians. In fact I would not call them Christians at all since they attack me and Jesus. A Jesus Warrior does not concern themself with slackers and Satan supporters.
Amen.
Hey fake HeavenSent really dude get a spell checker the real one isn't as stupid as you.
Mike
HeavenSent, I think the easy way out is being a follower. It's much harder to look at the universe from your own perspective and try to make sense of it all without relying on what has been told to you. You are blind to your own mental illness. I feel sorry for you and others like you, and that is in no way meant to insult you.
May 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm | Report abuse |
Mike
and I will never "seek Jesus" because I am mentally sound. i am of a growing number of people on this planet who realize there is no truth in religion. you can be a good person and do great good on this earth and live a happy, prosperous life, and not seek jesus. it's a cult which i have no interest in being a part of.
Mike you are in the cult of Satan and you don't even realize it. Seek the Truth in Jesus and your eyes will open and the bible will make sense.
Amen.
Good try phony heavensent. It really bothers you being g-ay.
I'll pray for you.
Amen.
HeavenSent-
Wow, the Beat.itudes are completely lost on you, aren't they? Tell me where Jesus ever said "Blessed are the egotistical, for they shall make a mockery of my message of love"?
Truth needs no defense or proof.
allfaith
'Truth' for more than the individual does require proof. Scientific truths are based on proof, and they are actively defended and sometimes defeated by better explanations that match the proof better.
Religious truth, however, often becomes stagnant due to lack of movement from it's sacred pools.
Christianity is not a religion or a set of doctrine you learn in your head. It is a way of life that where God is the vine and you are the branches. The word of God has absolute power that has already crushed death. We need to REALLY KNOW God in all that he is. To remain as a branch, in Christ, is when the gospel has power in your life. You need to REALLY be honest with yourself and where and who God is in your life.
Good post Jen.
Amen.
I do share the goal of helping others as my main focus in life, although I also think these ideals are secular in nature, based in a solidarity of humanity.
To any followers of Mr. Camping, I would ask that you please take a moment to check out the Hope for Autism Foundation of Michigan website. I promise, we will not rent any billboards with your donations.
Thank you again for your insight. It is very refreshing to have civil dialog.
Again, in response to Jeff M.
@Eric G
Whoa.. I'm a bit slow...who is Mr. Camping? 😉 Gah...I gotta keep up on this more!!! Hopefully we can continually encourage other individuals to find ways to keep the communication moving in a positive direction, regardless of our bias!
Also...
DEFINITELY support any cause to combat Autism or Asperger Syndrome as well!!!
Stay safe, and God bless!
To all,
Once again...christians who speak out AGAINST g-ay behavior is NOT AND I DO MEAN NOT bigotry. Its funny though when any christian speaks out against a behavior or something that is wrong we get ridiculed, told were "judging" or worse told that we have h-ate towards H-o-m-o's. THAT ISN'T IT AT ALL!!!! People you need to see that we as christians are told to help our fellow man...AND YES...that includes ALL SINNERS...including g-ay people who at the current moment refuse to turn from their evil lifestyle. I have personally blogged on this forum with those who are confessed h-o-m-o's and don't agree...I would never attack them...and what I do is point that there is a better way and if they will cry out to God he will help them. Call it whatever you want but its funny that anyone that is a christian we get told we h-ate people when we point out wrongs.
@CW
Understandable...but please remember: not everyone shares our system of belief. Christ understood this, which is why He repeatedly used parables to highlight a specific behavior that was wrong, and then would (sometimes) even cross-reference it with Old Testament law. Then He would seek to encourage and display love/compassion. We should seek to do the same.
@ JeffM,
I agree with you. Just so you understand...I read some of your other posts
First...any sin is a sin...I don't point or harp on just one...any sin is a sin...plain and simple.
Second the Bible does address h-mo-s-exual behavior in the Bible...see 1 corinthians 6:9 or Romans chapter 1. There are exactly six passages throughout the Bible that address this behavior I only pointed out two in the New testament.
Third...my only problem with all this is most of those on this blog think that "g-ay marriage" is a right...is something that is okay.
I love your posts...thanks for showing that when we as christians don't let our anger come out that we can debate and bring some positive thinking to those that are non-believers.
Why do Fundamentalists sometimes quote the Bible and say, “God said it, I believe it that settles it.” They as-sume that the meaning and interpretation of the Bible is simple but ignore the historical aspect of the Bible and its interpretation.
Apart from a few pas-sages, such as the Ten Commandments, the Bible does not claim to be dictated by God. The Bible portrays the complex interaction between God and humans over long periods of time. The interaction includes presence and absence, revelation and mystery on the part of God. It includes human seeking, groping, and grasping for God along with human resistance, dullness, and stubborn refusal to accept God’s will. It includes a process of learning and growth, punctuated by periods of regression.
The writers of the Bible never tell us to turn off our brains. Instead they challenge us to think through the implications of faith in an unseen God who sides with slaves, refugees, immigrants, the poor, and the crucified.
Bob
I saw this post and like what was said.
God is revealing new truth in many areas of life. One which is increasingly clear is that He is speaking to us in the issue of ho-mos-exuality.
The new thing that God is doing in our midst right now is to show us that ho-mos-exuality is not simply an act or acts of willful disobedience to God’s law and commandments, but it is a state of being. It is an ident-ity that God has given to some of His children. It is who they are.
The overwhelming love of God in Christ sweeps some specific prohibitions away, even though they are in the Bible. Do you believe that? Anyone divorced? Jesus ruled out almost all divorce. Anyone here a woman? Well, Paul didn’t rule you out, but he ruled you out of speaking in church. Anybody here eat pork? Specifically prohibited!
Look, the sovereign message of the Bible is God’s redeeming, all-powerful love that overrides all else, and places specific prohibitions in the context of the time and place and situation in which they were written.
I am about to do a new thing. –Isaiah 43:1
@CW
Personally, I find these sorts of discussions energizing. That may sound corny...but to each his own...right?
1 Cor 6:9 is going to be something I need to study more over. Precursory examination in the Greek/Aramaic lead me to believe that this is referring specifically to lifestyles/individuals whom have given themselves over to repeated intentional and willful disobedience to God. If this is correct, I would categorize them as those whom have "hardened their hearts against God." The theory/hypothesis here is that those who are striving to maintain a Christ-like lifestyle would actively seek God in removing this temptation from their life. Whereas those who have hardened their hearts really won't care...and therefore have decided to reject God. Again, I'm not 100% certain. I need some time to dig into this and do more research.
As for g-ay marriage...the world can call it whatever it likes. In the end, a Christian marriage covenant exists solely between one man and one woman, with God. That's it, end of story. Based on what you wrote, I believe we agree 100% on this.
There was an individual earlier that posted they had g-ay Christian friends that did get married in a Christian marriage. Supposedly this was accepted by the church at large. I can only speculate when I say that it was most likely with the United Methodist Church, or potentially a variant of the Orthodox or Catholic Church. I do not adhere to any individual denominational understanding, but rather lean on Scripture alone. Granted, I'm no less prone to error than Martin Luther...but I recognize that the Bible explicitly states that the responsibility of interpretation ultimately falls on the Holy Spirit...which does not exist in any book/etc...but is in-dwelling in me. Further examination is always required of any "interpretation" so as to test it and make sure it lines up with the core of the Bible. That said, I do believe that the Bible is explicitly clear (read: no interpretation required...it is in the black and white print) that the Christian marriage covenant is, has, and always shall be a covenant between one man and one woman, with God. Again, I think this is a point we agree on.
Thanks for your thoughts and appreciation...it is my fervent desire that we can all reach a place where we can unabashedly share our points of view in a manner that does not seek to offend, but rather desires open communication and maturity through shared viewpoints.
@CW: not only is it bigotry, but it is the definition of bigotry. Please look it up in the dictionary before you try spewing your justification for your hatred.
And I don't understand why people like you still feel that "god" can "cure" gay people. It's been psychologically, physically and scientifically proven that it's bunk science. People are born gay and it can't be changed anymore than the true color of peoples eyes or skin.
And if you don't like gay people and the idea of them being happy, even if it means getting married, then don't befriend any gays and don't get a gay marriage. Does gay people being happy and getting married make you unhappy? Does it make you hate your marriage? Does it make you hate your country?
CW-
"Once again...christians who speak out AGAINST g-ay behavior is NOT AND I DO MEAN NOT bigotry."
Sure it is. let's compare it to the old bigotry against black folks, shall we? Why were people bigoted against blacks? Was it because of modern findings that black people actually did have poorer eyesight and less developed brains than white people? Of course not! It was based on ancient beliefs, none of which can be justified in modern society with our present level of scientific understanding.
Same goes with being gay. All the arguments against it come from ancient beliefs that cannot be justified in modern society with our present level of scientific understanding. Simple as that.
Grow some CW, stand up for Jesus and quit catering to lazy sinners.
Amen.
CW, don't pay attention to the phony heavensent. She has no use for eternity. She cares only about today. Which makes me believe she's very young.
Amen.
It's hard to be objective about something when you're a part of it. It's easier when you think of everything as being one. Christianity or capitalism or red neck are focuses, incomplete.
"I accept facts. However, evidence is not a litmus test to prove fact. Evidence is interpreted by bias. "
I agree and disagree. Evidence itself is not a litmus test to prove fact. Verification of evidence is. Verification is not subject to bias or interpretation.
I think our major division is our understanding of a "path to truth". You have explained and demonstrated that your faith is a universal trump card when it comes to the identification of truth in your world view. In my opinion, this is a very slippery slope. Faith as a path to truth is not an acceptable method to establish a world view because "faith" is not benign. An example of this would be that while your "faith based view" of the Creation theory does not really affect me, a "faith based view" of someone believing they have the right to kill my family because we are not Islamic, does affect me. The line between these two positions cannot be left open to interpretation. This is why my request is always universal, regardless of the benign nature of the subject, that verified evidence be presented to support any claim of reality.
Sorry, the above post was in response to Jeff M.
@Eric G
Part of any form of verification should be repeatability, correct? Just confirming this. I believe that verification, as a general step, should not be subject to bias or interpretation. However I would be remiss in saying that I believed any step ever used in any form of verification did not carry with it some bias or presupposition in regards to the evidence. It's a tough call...and not one that you or I can truly have any evidence to support the steps used in verification throughout history..so I have to chalk that up to a personal as-sumption/belief.
"You have explained and demonstrated that your faith is a universal trump card when it comes to the identification of truth in your world view."
---
I completely agree in saying that this is a slippery slope – particularly because people will often put their own bias/preference/etc into what they read...and can likely come up with something that is so extremist in nature that it hardly is recognizable when compared to the original source. It's like the old game "telephone". The further you get from the source, the more clarity is lost with the message.
The Bible recognizes this, and even states, through prayer, guidance by the Holy Spirit, measuring any response against the Word of God, and through fellowship with other Believers, we can determine with fair accuracy if what we are being presented with is Biblically accurate. Is there still room for error in this method? Sure. I would be absolutely ignorant if I felt that there was still no room for error.
From a Christian perspective, there is still opportunity for Satan to intervene and introduce temptation. From a secular perspective, this method still makes the as-sumption that there is a God, and that the Bible is accurate. From your perspective, I acknowledge that this still presents us with the "slippery slope." I'm not sure that I have a solution there, but, based on my system of belief, I will pray and study about it.
Based on some of your statements, can I presume that, while you are against general organized religion, you are not against the precepts that are universally taught between them about serving others, doing everything in love, always hope/etc?
You may be sitting on that fence Eric G, but at least you are searching.
John 3:1-7
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God [Heaven].
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Amen.
In Romans 1:16 – 32 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5, you will find examples of the predictions of the Bible that have been fullfiled
Those are not predictions, wow that was lame.
@spokesman
Umm...these are predictions for the "last days"... If you are claiming these as historical fact, that would make you a Post-millennialist. Are you aware of this?
Jeff M, you know the following scriptures ...
Matt 7:7-8
Christ speaking,
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Amen.
@HeavenSent
"Jeff M, you know the following scriptures ..."
--
Sure do, VERY familiar with them. My only question is...how do you see that as a response to my question that is asking "spokesman" to confirm his post or pre millennialist mindset? Maybe it's simple and it's flying over my head...
For all who do not believe in JESUS< you will soon know he exist because the Bible has never failed in it's predictions, also everyone will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord
"the Bible has never failed in it's predictions"
Oh really and what predictions came true?
Never failed in its predictions? Can you please provide an example?
Errr...hmmm... this is a delicate area...one of severe debate even amongst Biblical scholars. You can't talk about prophecies without discussing Jesus Christ and Revelation. Jesus Christ, which secular historical doc-umentation from Josephus' records, undoubtedly lived. As to the fulfillment of prophecy surrounding him, you would have to rely solely on the Bible. Christians can accept this (for the majority) without any need of unbiased historical record or evidence. The secular world requires a bit more proof before this road can truly be traveled down. Hence why it is called "faith".
As for Revelation...it hasn't happened yet...so you cannot say it "has" or "will" happen... You and I may believe that it will happen, but that hardly makes it a historical and factual event.
You can give people reasons for the HOPE that is in you...but things like this are better left for a discussion once they've accepted Christ.
Jeff M
Well, I think you have a stronger case in favor of Jesus being an actual person than any case against, but you have no historical evidence linking him as actually 'the Christ' in either the Jewish, or Christian sense. He may be called it, but that's a far cry from it actually being so, right?
Then comes the question of whether he fulfilled prophecy, or was his story rendered to match prophecy? There's no reason to rule out the later.
The bible can and has been used to argue nearly any and every argument man has had since it was codified, and argue all sides of said arguments. Some people see prophecy fulfilled, others see allegory never meant as prophecy. Some people see warnings about coming apocalypse, others see colorful diatribe against ancient rulers/situations.
@Jeff M & Free,
There has been argument as to the legitimacy of the Josephus references. In my own research I have a difficult time with them, as they seem out of character in many ways to the surrounding text, or feel "tacked on". It has been a long time since I read them myself. I may have to go back and dig out my notes.
Of course, I also do not believe that a story, particularly a story of faith, needs to be factually true while maintaining spiritual Truth, so it matters less to me whether he really lived than the lessons he purportedly taught.
myweightinwords-
They feel 'tacked on' because you can chop them out and the text actually reads better, more smoothly with them gone. Besides, Josephus was a devout Jew, so why would he fawn over a blasphemous claim such as this? Furthermore, we know that the good monks made tons of 'corrections' to they works they copied. They had motive, means and opportunity, as they say.
Also, read this Time Mag article about the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest known text of the Bible. It has over 27,000 'corrections' made within it.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1910141_1910142_1910126,00.html
@Free
"Also, read this Time Mag article about the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest known text of the Bible. It has over 27,000 'corrections' made within it."
----–
Given that the "corrections" are not quantified, I would simply say that this is a natural part of the process for any translation. Have you ever tried to translate something from one language to another? The complexities in ANY language – transcribing nuances, colloquialisms, etc – is going to run into a need for some form of translation so that those reading the text that are unfamiliar with the originating language.
Just to clarify, the Codex Sinaiticus is the earliest known complete manuscript – containing both the OT and NT – translated into a common language (Greek). However, it is not the *only* one that was translated directly from the original Hebrew/Aramaic OT and Greek NT. Just as an example, the Matthews-Tyndale Bible was the first English Bible translated directly from the Hebrew/Aramaic OT and Greek NT. This was circa 1530's. The Codex is simply another translation from original texts to a "modern" common language of the time it was published. For all we know, the "corrections" could simply be the owner's notes and criticisms regarding the published translation as compared against originating texts.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son & Eric G... you guys still around?
Still lurking about........
Where did we leave off?
@Eric G
Page 45 (LOL)...I (finally) replied to your comment:
"Sorry, just getting back to something you posted earlier and then I'll answer your hypothesis aftewards.
First, you state this:
'My understanding of the Big Bang theory is not belief because I can do the math that proves the theory based on evidence. In all of your posts, you have provided no evidence to support your claim.'
Then you state the following:
'Creation theory and Big Bang theory are separate theories. All theories carry their own burden of proof based on the claims they make. Verified evidence supporting Big Bang theory is demonstrative. It is fact regardless of your acceptance. Creation theory has no verifiable evidencial support.'
I accept facts. However, evidence is not a litmus test to prove fact. Evidence is interpreted by bias. A fact is empirically true, can be supported by evidence, and is indisputable and repeatable. While Big Bang is certainly empirically true on a *small* scale, it has yet to be repeated and observed on any sizable scale that would allow it to be considered evidentiary enough to be indisputable.
My biggest problem is that, with Big Bang, Evolution is often thrown into the mix. Do I believe that the Big Bang could have happened and still align with Scripture? Sure...God spoke, and BANG! Sounds good to me. That would still not contradict the Bible...at least that portion of it wouldn't. To say that millions/billions of years + evolution = where we are today is in direct contradiction to the Bible, which is what I reject. So it all depends...what is your understanding of what the Big Bang theory encompasses? If it is simply used to explain the process by which our Universe began formation, and not the proposed timeframe that it happened within, I'm fine with it. The problem where secular science often collides with Biblical definition is that science says it took x number of years, whereas God says He created it ALL in 6 days.
Evolution is an entirely separate issue in my eyes, but is key in understanding the entire discussion from a Christian perspective. Pure evolution, by very definition, results in the spontaneous increase in genetic information. No amount of mutations/adaptations results in anything close. Quite contradictory, modern usage of the word "evolution" points more closely to mutation/adaptation to one's environment...which is either a) a lateral shift in genetic information/re-using existing genetic information, or b) a loss in genetic information. This adheres to the thought process that our world and everything in it is gradually falling to decay.
As for your hypothesis, I'll go along with it. No, proving Big Bang incorrect does NOT validate any other theory...it simply invalidates in now-invalid theory. But...you knew I was going to answer it that way, right? Back to the original point of yours: where is the Christian evidence that the Biblical account of Creation is the correct theory? I've already said it, so I'll repeat: Evidence is interpreted by bias. When interpreting evidence, we taken it from our current ability to process, organize, and categorize it. How we perform these functions is based largely on our decision of what belief system we are adhering to. I claim Christianity as my bias, and you claim secular science as yours. I claim the Bible to understand and interpret the evidence. You claim dynamic human understanding to interpret yours. The more science "uncovers", the more susceptible your evidence is to change the interpretation. My belief system is static. Good, bad, or indifferent – you and I have both chosen our paths."
@Eric G
Let me say – really quick – that it has been a pleasure to discuss these matters with you. I truly appreciate your insight and perceived genuine interest in having honest and adult discourse. I would love some day that, regardless of our systems of beliefs, we could all sit down and have such talks.
Don Lemon, I don't know whether you are taking the trouble to wade through all these comments, but a disturbing number of them show the hate that you have had the courage to stand up to.
For that, I salute you.
Be strong. In the end love will defeat ignorance. Draw strength from the words: Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.
Unfortunately it's a common trait on both sides of the aisle. I wish it weren't so. I will say, the majority of posters *appear* to be pretty courteous.
As I read through the comment pages on these blog posts I am astounded by the number of people on all sides of every issue that can not seem to carry on a civil conversation without resorting to character attacks.
Courteous discourse is clearly a thing of the past.
Agreed
I speak the truth and if it offends them that is their problem. I do not apoligize for being a Jesus Warrior.
Amen..
"Jesus Warrior."
I am laughing so hard I almost pee'd my pants! LMAO!
@HeavenSent,
I submit that there is a way to speak what you know to be truth without resorting to name calling and offensive commentary.
I like to eat shellfish. I know it's a sin, but I like it anyway.
My favorite is bearded clam.
"there is a way to speak what you know to be truth without resorting to name calling and offensive commentary." It's a little hard when most Christians think of Gay people as Satan's servants coming to convert you to "the Gay". Seem's silly I know, but they really do think of "gay" the same as they do "aids" and many probably wouln't use a toilet after a known "gay" has used it incase they catch "the gay". This is as ignorant as those moronic Christians of Europe in the 1300's who blamed the plague on sinister Jews claiming they must have poisoned the water. Yes, I'll agree, we need some civility in the discourse, but when you have one side making up lies and perpetuating false beliefs it's hard to be civil.
HeavenSent
You could truly be a "Jesus Warrior", or you could just be another guy mistaking his own personal opinion as being identical with Jesus'. That happens often enough, right? So again (and again, and again...), are you humble enough to admit that you could be the one mistaken here?
@ScottK,
It is difficult to have a conversation of any kind when you begin by denigrating those you would converse with. It is simple enough to express a difference of opinion without resorting to calling someone a moron or assuming you know what they will say or what they believe based solely on a label that they apply to themselves (or one you have applied to them).
I understand the frustration, but all your angry words do is fuel the flames of bitterness and anger and fear, perpetuating an argument that will never lead to solution.
Phony heavensent is just having her fun with everyone.
Amen.
Dutchie, praying the g-ay away means to go humble (meaning to shelf one's ego) and read Jesus' truth in the Bible so that the reader can comprehend what Jesus' teaches on how to be the best that He wants us to be and apply His righteous teachings to their life. Being engulfed in Jesus' spiritual truth deters the reader from focusing on the ways of the world.
Amen.
Being gay is not assigned a higher class of sin than greed, infidelity, etc. The point (being missed in this article) is we ALL have our crosses to bear. And, that is why we need Jesus. The point is NOT to single out gay people for their sin over our own greed and desire to acquire tons of stuff.... or our own desire to sleep with our neighbors wife..... or whatever else is our particular problem. However, just deciding that what we're doing is OK and rationalizing it away (like this author) really misses the point.
No, 'the point' is that being gay is unfairly classified as being a sin, as being something 'wrong', based on an ancient understanding of the world that also saw all mental disorders as being possessions by a devil. Surely we've moved on from such primitive thinking on such things?
Doubtlessly, gay people lie, cheat, and swear to a extent similar to that of the straight community, just as left-handed folks, very tall folks, and natural red-heads. 'The point' is that everyone should be judged, if that's even something you're comfortable with doing as a Christian, equally and and not based on some trait that you were born with.
Free, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
Jesus also said ...
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:15-17
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:6
Amen.
HeavenSent
But what did Jesus say personally about being gay? Not Paul, not the OT, but Jesus? Lust? Do you imagine that only gay people lust?
Free,
Why does it matter if Jesus said it as opposed to Paul? All scripture is equal and God breathed. All scripture comes from the same author which is the Holy Spirit. All scripture wields the same authority.
2 Timothy 3:12-17 (English Standard Version)
12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Free, Jesus, through His Holy Spirit guided Holy Men to scribed His truth in the Bible. God is the author. You don't want to believe this because it takes courage to follow Jesus' truth. It's easy to follow satan's lies. It doesn't take a thing of an individual to live in sin. It's the easy, cowards way out.
Amen.
The point bible thumpers can't grasp is everything written about gays was done by bias and prejudice people up until the 1970s. It was shown that the reports and literature was dishonest, so this would also mean so is the bible! What is hilarious is it has been proved that the word ho-mo-se-xual was also added later to the bible and the bible thumpers will still be in denial. So, Free it's impossible to have a rational conversation with such closed minded people.
James M
"Why does it matter if Jesus said it as opposed to Paul? All scripture is equal and God breathed. All scripture comes from the same author which is the Holy Spirit. All scripture wields the same authority."
Paul was a self-admitted hater of Christians, wasn't he? Can't you question his sincerity as much as you can question L. Ron Hubbard's after he said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion"?
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"
Which 'scripture' do you think he was talking about? His own letters and the other NT books that hadn't even been written yet, or the Jewish scripture? If the latter, then why have Christians opted out of following all of the Law of Moses?
HeavenSent
The Codex Sinaiticus, the world's oldest Bible, has over 27,000 'corrections' within it. Were these all intentionally guided by the HS too?
Duh, being closed minded belongs to the non-believers. It takes courage to follow Jesus' truth. It takes nothing to follow the lies of satan. Your generation is the laziest so far that I've witnessed.
Amen.
No HeavenSent you are closed-minded when it comes to the truth regarding gays. Your insecurities cause you to put this bubble around yourself to block the real truth because you are afraid of change. The signs of a closed-minded person are no matter how many facts or ideas you put in front of them their minds will never change. Its people like you that interrupt our evolution both mentally and spiritually in a worldwide way.
Duh! Sorry to burst your bubble, but g-ays don't have the franchise on the sins of lust and pride. I could care less what a person calls them self, it's still being blinded by these sins. You and others however keep bringing up the g-ay issue. I look past whether it's a g-ay or heter-o-s$xual doing the sin. It's still sin.
Amen.
HeavenSent you take the cake for being blinded by sin. What's hilarious is you are totally clueless to it. The devil really has got a great hold on you! LOL!
Terrance, it be nice if you elaborated on your posts to allow me to comprehend what the subject is. It also would be nice if you posted under your original handle instead of hiding behind many (LOL).
Amen.
Free, can you make decisions for yourself? I guess you can because you choose to be gay. You made that choice, I don't care how you felt about another person, you made the choice to commit the crime. So stop talking like being Gay is ok because it's not. It's two men or two women together that's not natural!
"It also would be nice if you posted under your original handle instead of hiding behind many (LOL)."
I don't need to hide behind other handles what are you talking about? Just because you do it doesn't mean everyone does. Get a life.
"Free, can you make decisions for yourself? I guess you can because you choose to be gay. You made that choice, I don't care how you felt about another person, you made the choice to commit the crime. So stop talking like being Gay is ok because it's not. It's two men or two women together that's not natural!"
Your ignorance is just astounding. 154,000 Scientist and psychologist have proven you wrong!
@Free
"No, 'the point' is that being gay is unfairly clas-sified as being a sin, as being something 'wrong', based on an ancient understanding of the world that also saw all mental disorders as being possessions by a devil. Surely we've moved on from such primitive thinking on such things?"
---–
Some of us have...some of us obviously have not...unfortunately. It exists on both sides of the aisles, too. Because of the fragmentation in mainstream Christianity about ho-mose-xuality, I think we need to spell this out loud and clear (keep in mind, this is from a Christian perspective...I am not claiming this to be a universal *fact* that the secular world recognizes as well):
1) Nobody is perfect.
2) We are all created in the image of God, but also bear the burden of "original sin" – which is an innate desire to rebel against God.
3) There is a difference between having a proclivity towards sin, and actually committing a sin. Sin is a sin once you have dwelled on it. If you acted on it, or thought about it further (desiring it), it IS a sin.
4) The Christian covenant of marriage is defined as a covenant, between one man and one woman, with God. This means that any other relationship (man with man, woman with woman, etc) is not Biblically accepted as presiding within the bounds of a Biblical and Christian covenant of marriage.
5) Fornication, according to the Christian Bible, is the act of participating in a se-xual relationship outside the covenant of marriage. Any se-xual relationship, beit with the same or opposite gender, is fornication – and therefore a sin.
6) Sin is sin! Fornication, regardless of the gender of either or both partners, is no more or less a sin than anything else (with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit – the willful and permanent rejection of God).
Christians – STOP COMPLICATING IT! Stop quoting Leviticus 18:22 without looking at 1-21!!! This is about ensuring that God's people do not fall into the same practices that other faiths followed in foreign lands (read: Canaan)!
1word-
Not that it matters, but I'm not gay myself. Like the white folks who supported the civil rights movement you don't have to be in those shoes to recognize the injustice of it all, do you?
Not that I believe that being gay is, but as far as 'unnatural' behavior goes why not rile against those folks who get tattooed, or have pierced anythings, or who shave, or drive, or even cook their food? Humans do a lot of things that aren't 'natural' in any sense, while some animals, who supposedly live as naturally as we did in the Garden, often mount the same gender. Besides, I think God gave up on the whole "what is and what is not natural" argument with circu.mcision, wouldn't you say?
"The Christian covenant of marriage is defined as a covenant, between one man and one woman, "
I'd like to request chapter and verse on this one. Haven't been able to locate it myself, and what I've read indicates that the Biblical definition of marriage would be something like "one man and as many women as he cares to take with or without their consent."
Jeff M, to simplify matters one only needs to tell folks to read God's letter (the Bible) on their own. Every thing man (meaning women too) needs to know about life and the hereafter is in the Bible.
Amen.
Well, it seems that CNN has deleted all of my comments that said anything important. I guess when a Christian writes something on here that actually might make people rethink their idea's it has to be deleted. Further proof that CNN is promoting the leftist agenda with irresponsible journalism and censorship. Lets see how long it takes for this one to disappear.
SB, for a Christian to post on this site we have to keep Jesus' truth simple. We can't ever go deep into His truth cause the heathens at CNN won't tolerate it due to it being their job to keep satan's lies at full throttle.
Amen.
@HeavenSent
Whoa...not true. It's a word filter. Look it up and don't just assume that only Christians are being "censored".
ho-mo
s3x
c-um
and other such words get "moderated". There are a few other posts on this.
If you feel you are being heavily moderated, take a look at the words that you use. Most of the moderation is done based on a word filter. Some words, even though they are legitimately and properly used, will be moderated. If you skim through other posts you will see that some people use a work around for some of these words, inserting a hyphen for example, or deliberately misspelling the word.
The other way you will likely see moderation is if someone reports the post for abuse.
Save it folks. I've been posting on this site for many months now and there are times I've gone to post strictly scriptures and CNN mod squads block it. Especially any scriptures scribed by Paul. Oh, boy, do they detest Paul.
Amen.
God is blocking you from posting your nonsense.
@HeavenSent, I've been a mod on forums like this one. Even scripture can have words in it that the filter will reject.
On top of that, as I said, if it is reported as abusive it is likely put in a queue for review. I doubt anyone is out to get you, or anyone else.
As a side note, scripture can be used in abusive ways. Several years ago I had police tell me that a bible verse used in a verbal attack could be construed as a death threat. The verse was "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and it was used repeatedly, both spoken and written on tracts and flyers, in a harassing attack on a Pagan.
Ghee Tommie Tom. You once posted that same statement under your own handle (LOL).
Amen.
No matter what you folks say, I know CNN works against me and God.
Amen..
"CNN works against me and God."
HeavenSent is speaking for God! LMAO!
Terrance, cough (LOL) Tommie Tom, you always give yourself away.
P.S. Stop writing your nonsense under my handle as the phony heavensent.
Amen.
"Terrance, cough (LOL) Tommie Tom, you always give yourself away."
WRONG, WRONG and WRONG! This truly shows why your reading comprehension is so BAD! LMAO!
@HeavenSent,
I have seen several times when other posters have found your bible quotations... have fixed the word-filter offending words, and they post just fine.
You are being exceedingly dense.
Quit the paranoia, ok?
o All "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
To wit:
o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "
"Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
Of course, those g-ays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences and Abrahamic and other religious traditions said mon-ogamous ventures should always be called same-s-ex unions not same-s-ex marriages.//////////////////////////////////////////
Still babbling your baloney Reality. There's a death penalty on those that want to lie down with the same s-$-x. Not in this life, but there will be no afterlife or eternity for those that don't ask Jesus for forgiveness and sin no more.
But, keep your lies going Reality, for you are taken million of souls with you to the eternal flames.
Amen.
The only thing I have to say is this: If God is a just God and a merciful God then really consider how he can really condemn someone who by any other accounts is a good person. Think about it...leave the bibles and church and all your religious teachings for just one tiny second and think about it. If I am a genuinely GOOD person and I lead my life in a commendable manner and I love someone with all of my heart and soul that so happens to be another female...HOW could he condemn that?
Trust me when I say you dont choose to live your life through ridicule and purposefully hurting those who love you the most. If I had a REAL choice it would be the easiest route but theres no amount of will power I posses or any human possess to change you who truly are inside.
If my God is truly the a merciful and Just God....he will not condemn me for love.
@Unruellie
Back up there...He doesn't condemn good people...but what is good? The Bible clearly says all our good works are like filthy rags to Him. If you are Christian, you recognize God's definition of "good", and not man's. We cannot force or buy our way to Heaven. Romans 10:9, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Contradictory to what has been posted, God does NOT hate g-ays. He loves them no different than He loves everyone else. There is nothing in the BIble that says that g-ays cannot get to Heaven. The sin that can be committed between 2 g-ay individuals is the same as the sin committed between 2 unmarried non-g-ays: fornication. Fornication is intercourse outside the covenant of marriage. The Bible recognizes the marriage as a covenant made by one man and one woman, with God. This is made clear in John 4 when Christ spoke to the woman at the well. In Jewish and Christian faiths, the act of intercourse does not const-itute marriage – that marriage is formed by a covenant with God between one man and one woman.
Please realize, even if a g-ay couple has intercourse, it is NO MORE OR LESS a sin in God's eyes than premarital s3x. Sin separates ALL of us from God, but Jesus came to heal that relationship...we just have to accept the healing.
Unruellie, God made all hearts. He knows the heart of man being in the flesh is deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9). Man (meaning women too), without Jesus' truth believe themselves to be doing what is righteous, except the flesh deceives all of us and that's why it's important to follow Jesus' truth in the Bible. He knew life on earth would be difficult for all of us that's why He wrote us a love letter (the Bible) ... so we wouldn't be on earth going solo. The flesh convinces us of many things. Jesus specifically told us not to pay attention to the ways of the world (the flesh) but to focus on Him (His teachings in the Bible).
Amen.
"God made all hearts."
Including gay ones!
We covered this "study" a few pages back. You can twist this like a politician to mean almost anything.
1) "there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way."
---–
Those that are truly g-ay were *most likely* born that way. I believe there are a scant few that have claimed h0m0s3xuality for the sake of attention, but do not believe it to be the OVERWHELMING majority.
2) "Of course, those g-ays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed."
---–
The secular world generally believes this to be bigotry/intolerance, and displays significant displeasure against Christians who support the Christian definition of marriage as a covenant, between one man and one woman, with God.
Yup, God did not make people g-ay. People choose to be g-ay by focusing on the ways of the world and not on God. Sins of pride (believing your self to be right on this issue, going against God's truth) and lust of the flesh.
Amen.
You're wrong HeavenSent God made gay people – It has to do with biology.
Please note the scientific references that ho-mose-xuality is caused by the person's environment.
Reality nice try, notice the last sentence.
Scientists today agree that s-exual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, s-exual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's s-exuality.
Yup, even biologists need to make a living. It's the ways of the world.
Amen.
"Yup, even biologists need to make a living. It's the ways of the world."
That's why religion is such a great money maker. I need to predict the end of the world to make millions. How about 11/11/11! Pay up!
The sooner we all realize that religion is akin to mental illness, the better off we will all be. I think it's obvious that HeavenSent has many unresolved psychological issues. This statement will trigger his brain to cite Jesus and/or God and/or something within the bible that helps to illustrate his point, at which time he will say "Amen" afterwards. He is not living in the real world. The real problem is that his religion was designed in an "air tight" method so they will always have an answer to everything. What they fail to realize is their religion, and all others on this planet, are completely bogus. The universe is bigger, older and wiser than any of you. And it's been here a gazillion years... Your religions are less than infants.
What is the matter Mike, Jesus' truth has you baffled?
Amen. Or, in your case. Period.
A Letter to Don Lemon....
http://contexting.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/a-letter-to-don-lemon/
What came first the man or the egg? How was man made if there's no God? Please explain this to me nonbelievers! How was woman created? I guess man and woman just formed out of no where?
You stupid.
@1word
"what came first the man or the egg? How was man made if there's no God? Please explain this to me nonbelievers! How was woman created? I guess man and woman just formed out of no where?"
Yes because a man being created from clay and a woman created from a rib makes so much sense or was it that both were created at the same time?
Why don't you get off your tail bone and pick up a biology to understand why you have goosebumps and a tail bone in the first place.
@word1 – who created God?
I guess God just formed out of no where?
Lisa, your questions is nothing new, hence, why so many Christians skip over it ...
En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos,
John 1:1
Amen.
In my experience the "how" of creation and the "who" came first question is less helpful to the discussion than you might imagine. When we get all hung up on something so far removed from the current moment, we lose sight of the real issues.
In a discussion about whether or not a person is born gay, it doesn't matter how the earth was born. What matters is the fundamental building blocks of that person.
Fundamental building blocks of that person. Let’s see scientists today agree that se-xual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, se-xual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn horm-onal factors, play a significant role in a person's se-xuality.
Gay people are made this way..OH yeah and human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, s-exual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior s-exual experience. DUH!
Oh, I suppose a thief is born to be a thief. Not because the thief focuses on the ways of the world and enjoys what is stolen.
Amen.
"Oh, I suppose a thief is born to be a thief. Not because the thief focuses on the ways of the world and enjoys what is stolen."
LOL! This show this person has no comprehension of the gay issue.
HeavenSent
"En marche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos,"
But, again, where did the Word and God come from? It's a simple question, really.
LOL, denying Jesus' truth is not a g-ay issue. It's sinners being blinded by sin that keep continuing to sin without knowing that Jesus gave us the option to repent to Him, mean what we are repenting, then sin no more. Jesus gave us all a handbook how to live our lives while here on earth (the Bible), He didn't send us down here to go solo. I
Amen.
Lisa
I guess the Big Ban Theory just came out of no where? Why aren't there any life on these other planets? I tell you what when they find out that there's aliens in space, I'll believe in Science of how the Solar System was formed.
1word:
"I tell you what when they find out that there's aliens in space, I'll believe in Science of how the Solar System was formed."
Promise? You won't just say that your sky daddy created them too? Promise?
Eric G
Wow! Lots of questions there Geraldine!
It took 2 hrs for you to find this information and thats all you have? Good try though. What about the the other questions?
Sorry for the delay, dinner and helping the kids with homework was waiting.
I hope you find it useful.
Eric G you have kids? Those are going to be some messed up kids just like their daddy!
@Geraldine – Your questions about why organisms are different is the question that started all of the biological studies culminating in the modern scientific Theory of Evolution. The short answer to your question regarding why plants and animals are different is a combination of the following: chance, variation, compet-tion, adaptation and divergence. Genetic replication is imperfect and introduces changes in genes (e.g. you contain at least 100+ mutations not found in either of your parents). These changes in genes produce variation in organismal behavior and/or morphology. Organisms are constantly competing for survival, access to resources and an opportunity to reproduce. Organisms whose inherent variation allows increased compet-tiveness may survive better, access more resources and reproduce more effectively to the exclusion of less compet-tive organisms. Over time, continued introduction of variation can refine these compet-tive advantages such that an organism's mode of survival, access to resources and reproduction isolate it from the original population of organisms.
The thing to remember here is that first, this isn't a conscious decision, i.e. an organism is not "willing" a particular change in its genes. The changes are essentially random. Second, organisms live in environments which are not uniform, i.e. the environments exhibit variation (e.g. temperature, humidity, sunlight, etc) and these variations can change over time. The same genetic change which benefits a particular organism in one environment may be neutral or detrimental in another environment. It also follows that a genetic change proving beneficial in a given environment at a particular time may become neutral or detrimental at a later time. Also very important here is to note that this temporal relationship can work in the opposite manner, i.e. a change which is detrimental in a given environment at a given time may somewhere down the road become neutral or even beneficial.
That's the very, very basic background. Now consider that an environment represents a series of "filters" where if an organism can pass through the filter, they gain access to survival, resources or reproduction. You might think of a filter for speed to out run a predator or a filter for teeth to chew a particular food or a filter for a behavior which increases the chances of an offspring's survival. All of these filters are operating simultaneously. But given the variation in environments, the individual filters in different regions will have different "pore sizes", e.g. a filter for "water access" is very different in a rainforest compared to a desert. The natural variation in organisms is forced through these various filters and over time, the result is organisms which appear and behave very differently.
What I've described here is natural selection and its ability to produce and refine variation is demonstrable throughout nature and in the laboratory. Suffice it to say that this is only one of the natural mechanisms known to produce biodiversity. Folks do contend that perhaps a "first cause" creator set everything up so that this system would eventually arise, however, this is pure philosophy with no empirical supporting evidence. What we can and do know is that biological evolution works, it's observable, predictable and applicable. We also know that it's been proceeding along without any apparent divine intervention since the emergence of single-celled life some 3.5 billion years ago. Where or how exactly single-celled life emerged is still an open question but there is a significant and growing body of evidence demonstrating plausible and purely natural mechanisms for pre-cell biochemical autoreplicators.
Q, give it up. Science has never answered the question "where did it all begin"?
Amen.
@1word
Don't spread hate. You are blasting Eric G for having a family? I know your intent, but that isn't Christ-like in the *way* you were communicating your disagreement. Shame.
HeavenSent
Whatever 'answers' religion has offered up have been pure fantasy, straight out of the imagination. Better to admit that we don't know what the actual answer is yet than to just make up an answer, and insist that it has to be true. We're not children, you know?
Free, just because you are too weak to believe Jesus' truth (endure to the end) is your problem. Your generation truly believes satan's lies out there and when Christians tell you His truth, you are convinced it to be a fairy tale ... which means satan is full throttle of his deceit on your generation and your egos make it an easy task for him. What I find it ironic is so many have always try to disprove Jesus' truth when in actuality they end of proving His Truth. Yes, God works in mysterious ways.
Ponder on that Truth of Jesus for a while.
Amen.
@1word
You somehow have the gall to take issue with -Eric G. and his children, when in earlier posts you were brow-beating your daughter to 'get the gayness' out of her. Myself and others already discussed with you our concerns of 'your' parenting and how extremely concerned we are for your daughter.
As far as -Eric G. is concerned there... is... no concern. -Eric has shown on his postings over the last year to be an extremely bright, and honorable man, (and has shared some of the challenges with at least one of his kids that he faces), which added to my respect for Eric. My opinion, from what I've read over time, is that I believe Eric to be a good parent, who takes good care of his kids.
I would suggest that you 'back off' attacking someone that you really don't know anything about.
Peace...
@Q
Don't know what else to say brother... As always, your postings are, IMHO, some of the best on these blogs. I know after reading your postings I always say... "Darn I wish I had said that !"
But, the important point, is that someone of your depth of knowledge and experience 'is' posting here.
Glad you're here...
Respectfully,
Peace...
1word your ignorance is showing.
Studies comparing groups of children raised by ho-mos-exual and by heteros-exual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in four critical areas: their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, and popularity with friends. It is also important to realize that a parent's s-exual orientation does not indicate their children's.
HeavenSent
If Satan is so deceitful then how can you be sure that you're not the one under his influence, or is your ego too big to allow for the possibility that you could be wrong?
Whatever 'Jesus' Truth' might be, there is that and your version of what that may be. A humble person would allow that there may be a difference between the two. Are you such a humble person?
@HeavenSent
You Said to @Q..."Give it up, science has never answered the question, 'where did it all begin'?"
There are nowadays some 'models' or theories that your question..."where did it all begin?" don't even make any sense. I won't go into these cosmological models at this point, but suffice it to say... they are there. I am aware that it doesn't mean *proof* as of yet, but they are there and these models are evolving, and narrowing our 'gaps' of understanding.
And to answer your assertion at it's 'surface structure' level. Just because science has not answered the question, "where did it all begin?"... YET, does not *mean* that science won't at some point, yes...?
Point being, as in all areas of study, we seem to be getting closer and closer to filling in the 'gaps' of our understanding.
No need to insert (god) at every point, where we don't have the answers...YET.
Respectfully,
Peace...
Free, I don't expect you to understand what I am about to write. I paid the price for NOT being deceived by satan. I could have easily jumped on satan's bandwagon and enjoyed an easy life that makes other's pay the way. I know the difference between Jesus' truth and satan's lies. Jesus' truth tests you in life. Satan's lies are the easy way through life.
Amen.
Peace2All, don't get all in a tizzy. God is in control.
Smile.
Amen.
@HeavenSent
No 'tizzy' here... just answering your assertions.
Oh, and just for you... 🙂
Peace...
@Peace2All: I do so appreciate these blogs as a open forum where people can show their true colors. The anonymity of the web provides a "filter removal" for the general population to display thoughts, bias, fears and hatred without the inevitable repercussions that would result from a face to face discussion.
I enjoy a spirited conversation with those of different views, but unfortunately, one must use certain mechanisims to deconstruct certain posters to discover their intentions. Jeff M seems a decent fellow and worthy of our time, as he is happy to explain his position in a civil way. Several others are the blog equivalent of a flyweight boxers. They are fun to watch, but not in our weight class.
As always, your posts are insightful and valued. I would hope that we, at the very least, make people attempt to apply reason and open mindedness to their world view.
Be well, my friend.
I was commenting on Eric G's HATE FOR RELIGION. That's how he's messing up his children. I don't care if he's Gay or Straight but give your kids a chance to experience the love of Jesus Christ for themselves. I don't want to hear that his Kids have religion either because for someone to be so adamant about God not being real, there's no way in the world would he let them speak of a God in his house. SAD really sad that people can't see that God Created this world. I want to know who created the Vultures and what made them eat only dead animals?
Oh yeah leave my daughter out of this convo. I was giving ya’ll an example of why I hate this ARTICLE because it touched close to home because I’m trying to restore my daughter to a normal LIFE!
1word religion is one of the worse offenders for killing people, millions upon millions of people have died because of it. It's time to grow up and realize it's all make believe.
@1word: I do not think that I have said, with absolute certainty, that their is no god. I have only said that no verifiiable evidence has been presented that supports this claim.
Your faith is obviously a central force in your life. I would hope that you have not established your entire world view and belief system on something that you cannot provide evidence to substantiate. Yet, you slander, insult and threaten others because they do not share a view that you yourself cannot prove is true.
So, for the last time, please provide any verifiable evidence that supports your claim that your god exists. If you cannot do so, sit quietly while the adults talk.
@Eric G
"Jeff M seems a decent fellow and worthy of our time, as he is happy to explain his position in a civil way"
--–
Thank you sir, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues with civil folks such as yourself as well 😉
@1word
"I was commenting on Eric G's HATE FOR RELIGION. That's how he's messing up his children. I don't care if he's Gay or Straight but give your kids a chance to experience the love of Jesus Christ for themselves"
--–
Buddy...where is the LOVE? No reason to get in a twist....and you aren't going to win any points with ANYONE by insulting parenting methods. There are alternatives that get the same point across without coming across demeaning. Here, try this one on for size:
"I was commenting on Eric G's general stance against organized religion. This has nothing to do with his orientation. I just have a concern with whether or not he is allowing his children to make their own decisions of what system of belief they will follow."
Sounds a bit more concerned..and a little less demeaning...right? Now, hopefully you have backed off and cooled down a bit. If so, it's time to own up to the fact that, whether or not non-believers share our morals, you owe Eric G an apology. Granted, it would have sounded much more genuine if you would have done it in the first place, rather than having it pointed out,....but it's due nonetheless.
HeavenSent
"I paid the price for NOT being deceived by satan."
The people who have been deceived by Satan are unaware of that fact, correct? So, again, how can you know that you are not one of his victims?
From our, and many Christian's, perspective you certainly fulfill one of his objectives; that being the besmirching of the name 'Christian' in this world. Others have also pointed out that you only seem to preach hate, and judgment. Your ego seems like a easily exploitable human flaw that Scre.wtape himself would relish.
I'd ask you to think about it, but I know you won't. Your ego simply won't allow it.
I'm hoping you get help, soon, son!
So people who aren't Christians are going to be tortured for all eternity (think about it) because they don't follow rules that are ambiguous and contradictory collected in a book almost 2000 years old? Jesus didn't say one word about ho-mose-xuality. If you are going to follow the Old Testament, follow it all because who knows which rules are safe to leave out. If you are going to follow St. Paul, then worship him, not Jesus. God is supposed to be love, but there is a lot of hate and controlling arrogance shown by folks who think their interpretation of religion is the only "correct" one. Remember, that arrogance is what fuels the Taliban, too.
Did you hear about the Christian who crossed the road?
He was so busy looking out for sin that he got hit by hypocrisy.
The Taliban are Muslims, their religion is all wrong and that's why they have so many killings and suicide bombers. God will never let them rest, everyday it's something new with them.
SH, what you wrote is full of lies and hate.
Think about it.
Amen.
HeavenSent
Why is all disagreement with fundamentalist Christianity see as 'hate' by folks like you?
You think about that.
@Free
It works the other way around too. Often the secular world believes that we Christians are hateful bigots because they disagree with our moral standards. The few individuals from each "camp" that are willing to talk peaceably are few and far between. That's a problem on *both* sides of the fence, not just one or the other.
Jeff M
I guess, the real problem is that believers hold some things as certain that others plainly see as ridiculous. Worse, as in this case of bigotry against gay people, a ridiculous belief is used to hurt people. For us this makes as much sense as the folks who are into astrology saying that all people who have the Ares sign shouldn't own pets, or something similar. You may think differently, but that's only because you have a bias favoring one ancient system of beliefs over another.
What we atheists usually value the most is knowledge, and we define 'truth' based on what can be proven according what we presently know. So, when we posit, for example, that evolution is the best explanation for the variety of life on the planet and the best that creationists can do is counter with attacks against Darwin's character it really doesn't inspire people to see you all as interested in an intelligent conversation. I mean, if this were a valid criticism then remarks against the character of Columbus really ought to convince people that America is fictional too, right?
So, I'm not sure that non-believers hate Christians so much as hate what what they're doing.
Ghee Free, I was writing to SH, I had no idea that you answered for others.
As far as disagreeing. I told you before, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon of the unbelievers. That's a no brainner which causes you folks not having to do any work (aka, free pass to be LAZY through life). However, it takes courage to seek, comprehend, and walk in Jesus' truth.
Amen.
@Free
1) "I guess, the real problem is that believers hold some things as certain that others plainly see as ridiculous."
--------
The same works the other way around too.. It all depends on what bias you are coming from.
2) "Worse, as in this case of bigotry against gay people, a ridiculous belief is used to hurt people."
--------
I agree, that really bothers me when Christians get so hung up on g-ays that they ridicule them and write them off as hell-bound. I don't buy that garbage, and I don't sell it either.
3) "For us this makes as much sense as the folks who are into astrology saying that all people who have the Ares sign shouldn't own pets, or something similar. You may think differently, but that's only because you have a bias favoring one ancient system of beliefs over another."
--------
Agreed...it's all about the bias. We all have the same facts.
4) "What we atheists usually value the most is knowledge, and we define 'truth' based on what can be proven according what we presently know."
--------
Good point. Christians should really take note of this if they haven't already...and learn from it. You are only positing what makes logical sense to you based on your bias. Fair enough. Christians and Atheists normally smash heads on this one. Christians believe in Creation, which secular science sees as smoke and mirrors. Christians see secular-science theories as theories on top of theories and hypotheses, grasping for something they can use as "fact".
5) " So, when we posit, for example, that evolution is the best explanation for the variety of life on the planet and the best that creationists can do is counter with attacks against Darwin's character it really doesn't inspire people to see you all as interested in an intelligent conversation. I mean, if this were a valid criticism then remarks against the character of Columbus really ought to convince people that America is fictional too, right?"
--------
It's odd that Christians should attack Darwin. Most Christians don't know this, but prior to his landing on the Galapagos, Darwin was a minster. Just a tidbit. Some might say this should be evidence as to why we should accept the secular-science bias. I disagree. Darwin himself even questioned the validity of Evolution if an observable event within the next few generations was not found to support Evolution. In fact, no such evidence has been found. This is PURELY a guess, but I'm guessing that Darwin would even cast Evolution off if he were alive today.
6) "So, I'm not sure that non-believers hate Christians so much as hate what what they're doing."
--------
Sorry, I didn't follow well...speak slower 😉 I have many Atheist/Agnostic friends that I get together with occasionally and go through these very same motions. We share some beer, bowl some, and while our debates may get a bit "elevated" sometimes, we ALWAYS walk away friends. I know I could trust them with my life, and I know that they know the same. Our differences are obvious to those around us. Many of my friends have great marriages (or so I as-sume). All of them have great kids. Some of them were devout Atheists to begin with, but have switched to Agnostic...one even converting fully over to Christianity. Poor guy gets razzed the most in the group, but it's all done in good clean fun.
"However, it takes courage to seek, comprehend, and walk in Jesus' truth."
Well, from the way you write you are sorely lacking in the courage department and comprehension.
@Free
"So, I'm not sure that non-believers hate Christians so much as hate what what they're doing."
How about I read slower? Oi vey. Blew right over me. Hating what Christians are doing...gotcha. I would even soften it some to say that Atheists *disagree* with what the vocal majority of Christians are saying/doing.
We have a HUGE problem in mainstream Christianity in that, when another Christian says something un-Christ-like, we shut up. Partially because we are only "going through the motions" of our faith...it's a name badge to show that we are "in the club". If Christians really want to show the world, they need to mirror some of their middle-easter counter-parts (no, not violent acts. Most middle-eastern religions are EXTREMELY peaceful and loving). We need to demonstrate love and an interested in helping those, even those that disagree with us. Just my $0.02.
Really, were you referring that statement to me?
HeavenSent
Oh, I think it's a whole lot easier to just jump on the Christian 'bandwagon', as you put it, with everything all laid out in what to believe and no responsibility for just following God's orders like good little soldiers. As a freethinker I have to evaluate everything on it's own merit and that, my friend, is anything but being intellectually 'lazy.' Sorry you don't see that.
@SH
1) "So people who aren't Christians are going to be tortured for all eternity (think about it) because they don't follow rules that are ambiguous and contradictory collected in a book almost 2000 years old?"
---
Are we as-suming the Christian beliefs, then? If so, then the answer is YES. Even some of those that claim to be Christian will go to Hell as well. What does it really take to prevent this from happening? Romans 10:9, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Not that hard, right? Just remember, declaring something (in the language of the Bible) is a STRONG statement. It's something that you believe with every fiber of your being...right down to your soul.
Let's not forget something: a sin is a sin is a sin. Rejection of God (aka blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is the only sin that is unforgivable because, in order to commit it, you must be in a position where your heart is hardened so greatly against God that you will never allow yourself to be dissuaded from your decision to reject Him.
I've got an idea: you tell me exactly which rules are "ambiguous and contradictory", and I'll be happy to show how Jesus' teachings in the New Testament affects these rules. Deal?
2) "Jesus didn't say one word about ho-mose-xuality."
----
You are correct. The sin is NOT ho-mose-xuality, it is *fornication*. Se-xual relationships outside the covenant of a Christian marriage is the Christian definition of sin. The Bible is a Christian's "rulebook", so I have to work within the framework, and will not accept any other definition, as it would not be Biblical. Whether it is a he-terose-xual couple or a ho-mose-xual couple that is engaging in intercourse outside the covenant of Christian marriage, it is still fornication. Since the Christian marriage covenant is defined as a covenant, between one man and one woman, with God, it cannot be applied to ho-mose-xual couples as they can never enter a Christian marriage covenant, and cannot therefore consummate their relationship in an un-sinful manner.
3) "God is supposed to be love, but there is a lot of hate and controlling arrogance shown by folks who think their interpretation of religion is the only "correct" one. Remember, that arrogance is what fuels the Taliban, too."
---–
You are right...but the same hatred is what fuels secular science-types that blast Christians with claims of bigotry and intolerance. Let's get down to bras-s tacks:
Christians are often extremely hypocritical because we say one thing and do another. We fail to stand up against other Christians who repeatedly commit acts against non-believers engaged in what Christians recognize as "sinful" activity. This is a horrible practice that breeds hatred and fear, not love. Christians, STOP IT!
As Christians, we can believe that what we are doing is out of love...but if the secular world doesn't see it as love...did we really do any good? Be Christ-like.
"Se-xual relationships outside the covenant of a Christian marriage is the Christian definition of sin"
Should be "Christian definition of *fornication*"..sorry!
Jeff I can tell you that my christian gay friends did get married before God and abstained from having se-x till they were married. I do believe as Christians that we should make all Christians aware that se-x before marriage is wrong.
Free, get over your big ego thinking you know something in life. My life was destroyed by non-believers with big egos. The day you could endure what I've endure and are still standing is the day we can have a conversation about "free thinking". You non-believers are so convinced we're brainwashed, you have no clue to how delusional you are. Christians will take Jesus' righteous path every time. No matter what the cost.
Anyway, I can tell I'm posting with a young person who insists they are right. Stay in touch with me in another 40 or so years then you'll have something to communicate.
Amen.
HeavenSent your writings are hilarious. I think you missed the part of forgiveness in your quest to become spiritual. Still holding onto what others have done to you, the problem is it has made you a bitter old person. Free is right following a single book is not difficult, but developing critical thinking skills takes a lot of work. You are the lazy one sticking to your one book, dismissing all of those that don't think like you in your limited mind set. LOL!
Actually SH, they get blotted out.
Amen.
Terrance, since you believe yourself to be so smart at you age. Tell me how you think someone's who's loved one was murdered gets to forgiveness? While you are at it, tell me how someone mutilated and left as road kill finds forgiveness? Tell me what you know for never experiencing some of the horrors in life, yet sit there and assume you have get to the level of forgiveness.
Amen.
Toby
Jeff I can tell you that my christian gay friends did get married before God and abstained from having se-x till they were married. I do believe as Christians that we should make all Christians aware that se-x before marriage is wrong.
First, they are not Christians and secondly they will be blotted out and burn forever.
Amen.
Actually Heavensent I have seen more horrific things in my life that YOU can't imagine. The fact you don't know how to find forgiveness or understand it shows you are pitifully lost.
HeavenSent
Terrance, since you believe yourself to be so smart at you age. Tell me how you think someone's who's loved one was murdered gets to forgiveness? While you are at it, tell me how someone mutilated and left as road kill finds forgiveness? Tell me what you know for never experiencing some of the horrors in life, yet sit there and assume you have get to the level of forgiveness.
Amen
-------------
Based on your warped religion, the person who were killed are going to burn for eternity if they were not "saved". Based on your warped religion's logic they can't be forgiven if already dead. If this is what you believe that is your choice and hell you make for yourself to live with daily thinking this. I have no problem stating that some people are better off with religion if they have issues, weaker or mentally disturbed. You might need it and I wish you the best with it. There is a time and place to face reality. For some they never reach that point.
"First, they are not Christians and secondly they will be blotted out and burn forever."
LOL! The person who wrote this is the one going to hell because they're clueless when it comes to Christs love.
Terrance
Actually Heavensent I have seen more horrific things in my life that YOU can't imagine. The fact you don't know how to find forgiveness or understand it shows you are pitifully lost.
---------
Or she is mentally disturbed by her experiences. Sometimes the answers/calmness come in the form of delusion.
"While you are at it, tell me how someone mutilated and left as road kill finds forgiveness? "
They're dead so forgiveness isn't necessary.
Jeff M
"The same works the other way around too.. It all depends on what bias you are coming from."
I'm biased towards things that can be proven and demonstrated logically. Science changes with increased knowledge, so I readily reject the old theories that no longer hold up to modern knowledge. I can demonstrate how chemistry is better than alchemy, but can a Christian demonstrate how their beliefs differ from the mythologies of old that they replaced?
"Christians see secular-science theories as theories on top of theories and hypotheses, grasping for something they can use as "fact"
The common misunderstanding of what a theory actually is causes this, I think. The idea that bin Ladin was involved in 9/11 is the best theory we have based on the evidence, but conspiracy theorists would have us believe otherwise. The rants against such accepted scientific theories as the Big Bang and evolution are no less weird than these conspiracy theories.
"This is PURELY a guess, but I'm guessing that Darwin would even cast Evolution off if he were alive today."
Remember that Science didn't pay in the beginning so Darwin likely felt that the simple life of a village vicar would afford him the time to study his beetles. If he were alive today I would guess that he would be astounded by the mountains of other evidence to support evolution that he could not even dream of.
HeavenSent
If you have a child would you teach him to think for himself, or educate him on what it is to be a 'proper' Christian? Which approach is closer to brainwashing, in your opinion? My ego isn't too big to admit that I could be wrong, is yours?
By the way, i am well into my 40's. How old are you, really? Remember, you believe God is always listening so no fudging. A lie is still a lie even if you think it's for God's benefit, right?
Since the phony heavensent (cough) Tommie Tom is writing under my handle, you folks can have a discussion with him.
LOL. All by yourselves.
Oh, so many handles, such nonsense.
Amen.
Jeff M
"We have a HUGE problem in mainstream Christianity in that, when another Christian says something un-Christ-like, we shut up."
It's the same in any arena where there are 'moderates' and 'extremists'. People are able to rant about Islam to the extent that they do because the moderate element, supposedly the vast majority, are cowed into not criticizing the extremist elements. Same with the Christians posting here. A great many think that HeavenSent is as nutty as we atheists do, but they either 'respect' his religious beliefs too much to point out where he is wrong, or they are actually afraid that he might say they're bound for hell too, which speaks volumes about how solid their faith actually is. What's wrong with more of you taking the responsibility of speaking out against guys like this yourselves instead of relying on us atheists to fight your battle for you? To put it indelicately it's time for moderates to grow a pair, if you know what I mean?
@Free
"To put it indelicately it's time for moderates to grow a pair, if you know what I mean?"
-
Oh do I EVER! Your statement (and entire post) was dead-on. We (everyone) often cower down at the slightest hint of authority without bothering to question what is being told to us. Hence, I can understand why many on the "other side of the aisle" laugh off my statements and consider me a fundamentalist bigot.
YES...Christians do need to grow a pair when they are watching other "Christians" fail to act in a Christ-like manner...regardless of the circ-umstance. The ONLY time that Jesus was EVER recorded as showing visible frustration and anger was when people made a mockery of His Father's temple... How many times was Christ presented with similar arguments against the Judeo-Christian faith? How many times did He give in and resort to insulting anyone, name-calling, or treating anyone without love? NEVER. I (although I know I fail at times) strive to do the same. I hope that is always evident in any of my posts. Please hold me accountable if I am not!
Jeff M
I can't remember speaking with you before this, but you seem pleasant enough. 🙂
For the most part, the Jesus of the canonical gospels seems like a wise and likeable sort as well. He seems to lose his humanity the further you get along in the New Testament. I'm not sure where the nasty name-calling comes from on my side of the aisle. I'd like to believe that most of it is reactionary, born out of being personally hurt by religious fundamentalism, but I suspect some characters as actually still being believers venting their own frustrations under the 'safe' guise of atheism. That's just an idea, not a 'theory' in any sense of the word. 😉
@Free
1) "I can't remember speaking with you before this, but you seem pleasant enough."
--
Thank you, you and Eric G have been very hospitable and I appreciate open and honest discourse. I have enjoyed these conversations as well!
2) "For the most part, the Jesus of the canonical gospels seems like a wise and likeable sort as well. He seems to lose his humanity the further you get along in the New Testament."
---
Makes sense to me, and anyone can explain it any way that suits their desires. It would seem to me that, as He progressed in His ministry, He would want to give more people reasons to accept what He was telling them. Miracles and wonders would do that pretty quickly in my book. We can explain away all that we *speculate* actually happened. In the end, we either a) accept what we read and pray to understand through faith, or b) reject what we hear because it sounds like foolishness to us. No reason for anyone to ever get our underwear all in a bunch because someone follows a different set of logic/as-sumptions/bias than ourselves...right? I have never read any of your posts that comes across (to me) in a manner that was unfriendly. I appreciate your maturity in these discussions.
3) "I'm not sure where the nasty name-calling comes from on my side of the aisle. I'd like to believe that most of it is reactionary, born out of being personally hurt by religious fundamentalism, but I suspect some characters as actually still being believers venting their own frustrations under the 'safe' guise of atheism. That's just an idea, not a 'theory' in any sense of the word."
---
To some degree or another I'm sure you are 100% correct. There are a mult-itude of reasons as to why these conversations would illicit such reactions from *either side*. These articles tend to draw the Holy-rollers and the vehement secular science-types out of the woodwork. I believe it is in the hands of us "moderates" to squelch the right and left-wingers so that we can have mature and honest dialogue that proves itself in desiring communication and mutual understanding. In the end, neither of us have to "accept" each other's viewpoints...but we should be able to be civil about such conversations.
To all the lazy people, there are no such things as gay Christians. You cannot be gay and a Christian.
Amen..
"You cannot be gay and a Christian."
Yes, you can and there are plenty of churches that support them. Being gay is NOT a sin.
Free
HeavenSent
Why is all disagreement with fundamentalist Christianity see as 'hate' by folks like you?
You think about that.
You eather are a Jesus Warrior or you are not. You are eather for jesus or against him. Quite simple even for your lazy mind to understand
Amen..
Jeff M
"In the end, neither of us have to "accept" each other's viewpoints...but we should be able to be civil about such conversations."
I'd be happy to share spaces on a 'Coexist' bumper sticker with you and the fellow who runs his life according to the zodiac, and each of us can keep our beliefs to ourselves.
The important thing is, just because a person wraps their political position up in their religious beliefs doesn't make those beliefs immune to criticism. Sorry Christians out there, but if you want to play your faith cards in the political game you'd better be prepared when the other players call your bluff.
"You eather are a Jesus Warrior or you are not. You are eather for jesus or against him. Quite simple even for your lazy mind to understand"
If you are going impersonate someone at least get the spelling down.
HeavenSent
I'll be the first to admit that I could be completely wrong here. Had Jesus actually came back on Saturday and left all the gay people on earth I would've taken that as pretty conclusive evidence that he didn't like them much. However, if he had raptured a number of them not on their choice of mate, but based on the same standard of goodness he leveled on you, then I would have been right about this all along.
Again, however, are you humble enough to admit that you could be the one wrong here?
The real HeavenSent can't even follow the scriptures.
Hebrews 12:14
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
HeavenSent
"You cannot be gay and a Christian."
Should read: "You cannot be gay and a Christian LIKE ME."
I'd bet there are plenty of Christians who would still accept losing you if it meant accepting gays just the way they are. It'd be a loss but, as they say, you can't save em all.
Phony heavensent, I hope you had fun today.
Amen.
@Toby
"Jeff I can tell you that my christian gay friends did get married before God and abstained from having se-x till they were married. I do believe as Christians that we should make all Christians aware that se-x before marriage is wrong."
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I am in no position to question the faith of another Believer, but I can say unequivocally that there is no exception in the Christian covenant of marriage that allows for 2 individuals of the same gender to enter into the Christian covenant of marriage. One man, one woman, with God. I do not believe that your friends have "sinned" simply because of this ceremony – but I also fail to believe that God will recognize it as being a covenant with Him. I do not recognize the "exceptions" some denominations of Christianity have made in this regard, as it is not Biblical.
All sin is equal. However the Bible repeatedly tells us that there will be those that claim the name of God, but do not abide by His teachings. They have hardened their hearts against receiving God, and they will find no place in Heaven. Christianity is a lifestyle, not something we do just on Sabbath. Those that claim Christianity but repeatedly and continually choose to perform acts that are against Biblical teachings – make no mistake – have hardened their hearts against God. If a person tells me they are a Christian, yet I constantly find them in a state of drunkenness, I can say without any doubt is in danger of rejecting God (if they have not already). The same is true for anyone else choosing to commit almost any other sin.
Galatians 5 is explicit when it states that we are all tempted. Those that walk by the Spirit will be tempted but not succ-umb. Those that walk by the Flesh (sinful nature) will succ-umb, and will not enter Heaven. At no point does the Bible say that Believers will not be tempted...but by the Spirit we can overcome these sinful desires.
Let's be clear: If you are a Christian and have allowed yourself to fall to fornication (whether it is with the same or opposite gender), you have sinned. Just because we fall to sin sometimes does not mean we have to *stay* in sin. Pray that God gives you the strength to resist temptation. No matter how much you want to justify the choices you have made, realize that – if you claim to be a Christian – your life is not your own. You were bought at a price, and you were fearfully and wonderfully made. You can do amazing things, even move mountains, but you must first reject your lifestyle that leads you to sin.
Is this an easy message? No. None of us are exempt from temptation. None of us succeed 100% of the time. Do not let yourself be down-trodden just because of one failure. God loves you, no matter what your "orientation", or any other hindrance you may have. Surrender it to God, and watch what wonderful things he does.