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June 24th, 2011
07:25 AM ET

Dutch right-winger Wilders cleared of anti-Muslim charges

(CNN) - Controversial Dutch politician Geert Wilders was cleared Thursday of inciting hatred against Muslims, the Dutch justice ministry said.

Wilders was tried for inciting discrimination and hatred over a controversial film he made about Islam.

The court in Amsterdam said comments by the leader of of the Party for Freedom were "denigrating," but not illegal, the ministry said.

Wilders' film "Fitna," which he released online in March 2008 to international outcry, features disturbing images of terrorist acts superimposed over verses from the Quran in an apparent attempt to paint Islam as a threat to Western society.

It drew complaints from the European Union and the Organization of the Islamic Conference, as well as concern from the United States.

Comments Wilders made in a variety of media between 2006 and 2008 formed part of the case against him.

Read the full story here about the case against Wilders.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Europe • Islam • Netherlands

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soundoff (136 Responses)
  1. Muneef

    Dutch courage he had as it seems...poor guy wonder how much he had before he was strong enough to appear attacking whom he doesn't understand well....?

    June 25, 2011 at 1:27 am |
    • Muneef

      [43:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

      [43:1] H. M.

      [43:2] And the enlightening scripture.

      [43:3] We have rendered it an Arabic Quran, that you may understand.

      [43:4] It is preserved with us in the original master, honorable and full of wisdom.

      [43:5] Should we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?
      -----

      Inherited Traditions Condemned

      [43:22] The fact is that: they said, "We found our parents carrying on certain practices, and we are following in their footsteps."

      [43:23] Invariably, when we sent a warner to any community, the leaders of that community would say, "We found our parents following certain practices, and we will continue in their footsteps."

      [43:24] (The messenger) would say, "What if I brought to you better guidance than what you inherited from your parents?" They would say, "We are disbelievers in the message you brought."

      [43:25] Consequently, we requited them. Note the consequences for the rejectors.
      ------–

      Invisible, Devilish Companions*

      [43:36] Anyone who disregards the message of the Most Gracious, we appoint a devil to be his constant companion.

      [43:37] Such companions will divert them from the path, yet make them believe that they are guided.

      [43:38] When he comes before us he will say, "Oh I wish you were as far from me as the two easts. What a miserable companion!"

      [43:39] It will not console you on that day, as transgressors, that both of you will share in the retribution.
      ------

      God's Messenger of the Covenant

      [43:40] Can you make the deaf hear; can you make the blind see, or those who are far astray?

      [43:41] Whether we let you die before it or not, we will surely requite them.

      [43:42] Or, we may show you (the retribution) we promised for them. We are in full control over them.

      [43:43] You shall steadfastly preach what is revealed to you; you are in the right path.

      [43:44] This is a message for you and your people; all of you will be questioned.

      [43:45] Check the messengers we sent before you: "Have we ever appointed any other gods – beside the Most Gracious – to be worshipped?"
      -------

      Jesus: Another Example

      [43:57] When the son of Mary was cited as an example, your people disregarded it.

      [43:58] They said, "Is it better to worship our gods, or to worship him?" They said this only to argue with you. Indeed, they are people who have joined the opposition.

      [43:59] He was no more than a servant whom we blessed, and we sent him as an example for the Children of Israel.

      [43:60] If we willed, we could have made you angels who colonize and reproduce on earth.

      Jesus and the End of the World*

      [43:61] He is to serve as a marker for knowing the end of the world, so you can no longer harbor any doubt about it. You shall follow Me; this is the right path.

      [43:62] Let not the devil repel you; he is your most ardent enemy.

      [43:63] When Jesus went with the proofs, he said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

      [43:64] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord, you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."

      [43:65] The opponents disputed among themselves. Woe to those who transgress from the retribution of a painful day.

      [43:66] Are they waiting for the Hour (Day of Judgment) to come to them suddenly when they least expect it?

      [43:67] The close friends on that day will become enemies of one another, except for the righteous.
      -------

      They Hate The Truth

      [43:78] "We have given you the truth, but most of you hate the truth."

      [43:79] Have they schemed some scheme? We too are scheming.

      [43:80] Do they think that we do not hear their secrets and conspiracies? Yes indeed; our messengers are with them, recording.

      [43:81] Proclaim: "If the Most Gracious did have a son, I would still be the foremost worshiper."

      [43:82] Be He glorified; He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord with the great dominion, far above their claims.

      [43:83] Let them blunder and play until they meet their day that is awaiting them.

      [43:84] He is the only One who is a deity in the heaven and a deity on earth. He is the Most Wise, the Omniscient.

      [43:85] Most Exalted is the One who possesses all sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. With Him is the knowledge about the Hour (end of the world), and to Him you will be returned.

      [43:86] None of those whom they idolize beside Him possess any power to intercede, unless their intercession coincides with the truth, and they fully know.

      [43:87] If you asked them who created them, they would say, "GOD." Why then did they deviate?

      [43:88] It will be proclaimed: "O my Lord, these people do not believe."

      [43:89] You shall disregard them and say, "Peace;" they will surely find out.

      June 25, 2011 at 1:40 am |
    • jack docherty

      he is braver than you
      give the world your personal address and i will change my mind
      otherwise hide behind a pig

      June 25, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
  2. Jerry

    About time this farce ended and courageous Mr Wilders was acquited. We need more people like him to expose Islamic fanaticism for what it is and why it threatens our western values. I just hope that all the left wing naive idiots pack up along with backward fanatic Muslims and leave for an Islamic country and thereby leave us alone to further enhance our knowledge through science. They on the other hand may keep reading ramblings of an illiterate 7th Arab,
    We'll check on you guys in 20 years to see how far you have advanced, Ok?

    June 24, 2011 at 11:49 pm |
  3. Muneef

    Understand that during Alex-and-er the Great time and the Romans time men free or en-sla-ved were taken and for-c-ed into becoming gays,actually they had their private parts taken off into becoming a third kind...heard many others if were not ra-p-ed they will have their private part taken off to live with out,for serving in the name of religions the worship houses or the rulers palaces...

    Guess no one would think to became as gay if was not abused during childhood either by elders or the dominant ones at his age in the neighborhood... There is always a reason for that act and no way related to genetical reasons unless the body was deformed...! Many cases we heard of males had their private parts into the inside and thought of as females,brought up as females, only found out when no pregnancy signs were shown and scanned at hospitals to find out being a male...

    Another case was a male who had a stomach pain when taken to hospital it was found out he was a female having a period pain...although she had a small private part as of a male pointing out...as a he she was married to another female and has children... So had to divorce and marry a man after having had an operation...!?!  What we call those who unintentionally had been mistaken for?? Can we call it genetically cases and are excused..

    But now it became a fashion as understand in Far East&S.E.Asia that males have their private part taken off and made as a female with a female breast....so many of them until it became hard to tell which is a female and which is a male!? 

    Am sure non of us non gays would want to get married to find out being married to a male or as you say it be laid by a male rather than a true female and not artificial female....!!!

    No wonder that the world is filled with unmarried single females it is because males are busy looking for males rather than females..adding to that the Polygamy and Divorce laws imposed by some Religions and Countries has deprived those females the chance while married males are left stuck with one female whether there is love and respect between them or not but just because of children or religious ties..!!

    These acts of tyranny has driven married males and females to fall for adultry for their needs...same as well for single females having not found a legitimate male partners,had to seek pleasure by falling into adultery....

    Isn't there some thing wrong with the formula adopted that drives all into adultery and gayness for both $exs...? So where are the human rights they tell us about's when many suffer because of those in this world...it is only for those cases you see people become as good as the "Three Wise Monkeys"...?!  

    June 24, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • Reality

      One more time:

      Saving Muslims like Muneef is quite easy!!!

      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

      The First Five of the 77 Branches:

      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

      Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

      June 24, 2011 at 11:41 pm |
    • jack docherty

      maneef
      you have made it obvious to everyone what your terrible private history has been
      i am so sorry

      godpot
      the difference is
      i am not talking about followers of mohammad
      i am talking about mohammad himself

      June 25, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
  4. When Good Muslims Go Bad

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43526084/ns/us_news-security/

    Imagine that.

    June 24, 2011 at 5:11 pm |
  5. step

    Yet he wanted offensive cartoons of himself removed?
    http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/geert-wilders-opposes-freedom-of-speech-again/

    June 24, 2011 at 1:00 pm |
  6. Muneef

    Feel that there are among Muslims and non Muslims who are spreading fears among all for a reason that only God knows of...but I just pray to God that he fails the evil schemes of all the transgressors in favor of the innocent and pure believers,may God bring them to stand together as one against the powers of tyranny and darkness...Amen.

    June 24, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • frank

      Why do you think your prayer will have any effect at all, when the fervent prayers of countless good people, over numerous centuries, have never had an effect?

      June 24, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
    • jack docherty

      the power of goodness will prevail
      that is why subjection under the sword of submission will be resisted by good people

      June 24, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
    • Muneef

      God is hearing every prayer,some he will accept from and give it to them on earth while some he will be repay them afterlife while some he will completely ignore for they have ignored him when they were at good times and only remember him when they are in distress only...

      I have made my wish of intentions and it is for God to accept or reject or repay me afterlife..he is the best knower of things, beside I have lost nothing but rather gained a credit for showing good intentions and deeds...  

      Beside that God has promised that in one of his Quran verses;

      [9:32] They want to put out GOD's light with their mouths, but GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.

      June 24, 2011 at 2:04 pm |
    • Muneef

      [6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.

      [6:160] Whoever does a righteous work receives the reward for ten, and the one who commits a sin is requited for only one. No one suffers the slightest injustice.

      [6:161] Say, "My Lord has guided me in a straight path – the perfect religion of Abraham, monotheism. He never was an idol worshiper."

      [6:162] Say, "My Contact Prayers (Salat), my worship practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to GOD alone, the Lord of the universe.

      [6:163] "He has no partner. This is what I am commanded to believe, and I am the first to submit."

      [6:164] Say, "Shall I seek other than GOD as a lord, when He is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another. Ultimately, you return to your Lord, then He informs you regarding all your disputes."

      [6:165] He is the One who made you inheritors of the earth, and He raised some of you above others in rank, in order to test you in accordance with what He has given you. Surely, your Lord is efficient in enforcing retribution, and He is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

      June 24, 2011 at 5:47 pm |
    • jack docherty

      muneef
      just go and read the hadith
      see the terrible evil deeds of the pig you call a prophet

      June 25, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • jack docherty

      the false prophet mohammad was
      a murderer of innocent men
      a thief of their property
      a rapist of their wives and children
      a slavetrader of their wives and children

      he deflowered a nineyear old girl when he was fiftysix

      just read the hadith

      June 25, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
  7. Reality

    Koranic/imam driven Acts of Terror speak for themselves: Some examples:

    The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

    ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

    and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

    and more recently

    1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

    1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

    2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

    3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,483 and 925 in non combat roles. 99,901 – 109,143 Iraqi civilians killed as of 3/3/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

    4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

    5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

    6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

    7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

    8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

    9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

    10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,141 killed in action, 242 killed in non-combat situations as of 03/03/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

    11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

    12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

    13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

    14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

    15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

    16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

    17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

    18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

    19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

    20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

    21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

    22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

    June 24, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • jack docherty

      i give you ultimate honour my friend
      your post is the best on this matter so far
      as a great friend of mine once said to me
      may you live forever

      June 24, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • Muneef

      Jack.

      Didn't your friend tell you where would you live for ever? We know that afterlife we would live for ever but it depends where about in afterlife would we live for ever...haha.

      June 24, 2011 at 9:08 pm |
  8. TheRationale

    Typical Islam. Say one thing they don't like and if they don't issue a fatwa they issue a lawsuit.

    June 24, 2011 at 11:57 am |
  9. Peter F

    At first glance that guy looks like Leonardo DiCaprio after walking through a windstorm

    June 24, 2011 at 11:35 am |
  10. BG

    Pat Condell's take on Fitna

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxbYBIlT6VE&w=640&h=390]

    June 24, 2011 at 11:30 am |
  11. BG

    For those who haven't seen this yet, here's Gert Wilder's original Fitna, Parts 1 & 2

    http://wejew.com/media/3665/Fitna_Complete_Jihad_Movie_English_Part_1_of_2/

    June 24, 2011 at 11:29 am |
    • Frogist

      Hey thanks BG. I appreciate the links.

      June 24, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @BG

      Hey pal... Always can count on you for the cool links and research.

      Hope that you are doing well.

      Peace...

      June 24, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
    • BG

      @ Frogist, Peace2All

      I kicked around on that site for a bit and saw Wilders final remarks at his trial. Impressive fellow. He's standing against prostrate subservience and submission of liberal governments in The Netherlands, Great Britain and similar European nations to Islamic ideology. I think that makes him one of the few true patriots in the world today.

      Frogist, I know this isn't your position. I've never asked you outright if you were Muslim or just sympathetic to Islamic tenants. Regardless, on the issue of Islam we disagree. But what worries me is... why? Is there a larger agenda here? Why would any country open the floodgates for Islamic immigration knowing full well that their social and political infrastructure would collapse under the weight of so many -more- unemployed, indigent people? It makes no sense to me. I asked myself, exactly what do liberals want? What's the goal of all this nonsense? So, with a little more digging....

      http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/011146.html

      Yeah, I know. Ken Hechtman. At first it looks like a setup for a new Onion satire. But read it.

      I've been a good Independent for many years, yet based on our many past discussions, you two are certainly more liberal than I. Is it this simple? Is this really the desired end product of an ultra-liberal agenda? If so, I gotta tell you.... it's delusional.

      Later, you two. And Peace, keep that crazy Dude in check. He's all over the place lately.

      June 24, 2011 at 8:51 pm |
    • Been on vacation lately, and I come back to see BG's big smelly ass. Ugh.

      To what "crazy dude" are you referring? Yourself? Look in the mirror, squirt.

      June 25, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • Peace2All

      @BG & @Sum Dude

      Hello my friends...

      O.K... I'm now to the point where I feel I need to say something here to you both. I've tried to stay out of this for as long as possible – hoping that you guys would work it out, the attacks of each other would die down, you guys would come to a mutual respect, etc... But, apparently you haven't.

      I care about the 'both' of you. You 'both' are my cyber buddies, whose comments, especially when they are on topic- minus the ad homs, are something that I, at least, truly appreciate. You 'both' are 'extreeeeeemely' smart. I'm guessing your IQ's are off the charts. And yet, you 'both' often spend your precious time when you are on this blog, instead of putting out your ideas, you spend your time Ad Homin' and personally attacking the sh-it out of each other, and sometimes others. -BG... in the beginning, I was on the receiving end of some of your attacks. Not fun, let me tell ya.'

      What's up with that...?

      You 'both' have so much to offer here on the blogs. Why would anyone want to use their precious time here to fling insults at each other... or others for that matter...?

      The real 'irony' here...? You 'both,' several months ago, asked 'me' to keep you guys in check. -BG- You asked me something to the effect of..."Peace... keep an eye on me, as you know I can get a bit 'heavy-handed' here".."Or Peace... watch out, I'm feeling an attack of -honestanon coming on, and you know it ain't pretty" -Sum Dude- The words may not have been exactly the same as -BG, but your request was basically the same, as in,..."Peace... keep an eye on me, you know how I get, etc..."

      And now, -BG... you have been asking me recently, on at least 2 occasions, to "keep -Sum Dude in check"... What the hell...? It's 'not' my job to keep -Sum Dude in 'check.'...! This has truly gotten out of hand.

      I've had 4 people on this -belief blog, for whatever reason, have asked 'me' to help keep 'them' in check, etc... You guys are 2 of the 4.

      I have -0- desired to be the blogs 'civility police.' Especially, when it comes to 2 of my favorite fellow bloggers/friends.

      -BG... When we first interacted back almost a year ago, when you were -honestanon, dancingwithtrolls, Let Us Prey, .308, etc... We went at each other, and worked it out. Of course we don't always agree on everything, but for me, that's part of the beauty of learning... is sometimes someone has such a different -opinion- than yours, that is where some of the real learning comes from, yes...? And, look...now we are civil to each other. You even admitted I have been right on several occasions, apparently much to your dismay... but all part of respect and learning from each other, which makes for great discussions, yes...?

      So, we started off 'horribly'... and now, I really look forward to our interactions and postings. We now quite often find ourselves on the same side on an issue, and have been 'both' attacked by others for seeing things the same way, yes...? Interesting how that happening...?

      -Sum Dude...For whatever reason, we seemed to have hit it off from pretty much the beginning. Love your postings. We don't 'always' agree. 99% of the time it seems we do. And yet, we sometimes point out things in each others postings that allow us each to learn. I love it.

      As I'm sure you 'both' are aware, just from a 'systems' approach, I'm taking a very big risk here by getting involved with whatever the heck is going on with the both of you.

      However, you 'both' asked me to help. Consider this my 'one and only' attempt to urge you 'both' to make nice. Please don't 'shoot the messenger' since you 'both' asked for my help.

      Again, you guys are 'both' ...(IMHO)... brilliant, funny, insightful, out-of-the-box thinkers, etc... I could go on with the 'sincere' observed compliments on you 'both.'

      Please stop... attacking each other ! Use your brilliance to put out great ideas for discussion and debate for the up-leveling and for the edification of all here on this blog.

      And... again, I consider you 'both' to be my very good 'cyber buddies.'

      I sincerely hope that you both appreciate my sincere (intent) here to intercede and be of help... Remember, you 'both' did ask for help !

      Don't know what else to say here with you guys... Love ya' both !

      I hope to see a change... if you don't... at least I attempted what you both asked for.

      Your respectful friend,

      Peace2All

      June 25, 2011 at 11:26 am |
    • Night Watchman

      @Peace2All – Wow. That was a long post! I wasn't expecting to hear from you much. That's why I haven't seen this post before.
      Okay, I'm bad. Bad Bad. As in I don't have to put up with anyone's ad hominem crap and find it easy to vent my own in response. I guess I'm bad.
      You don't have to keep the peace. You are not the cyber-police. If I asked you to do anything before, I don't recall it, so don't feel obligated to do anything.
      I haven't been posting much and got a lot of real-world stuff done by staying away from the internet, but then I come back to see BG assuming I've been running rampant. Not me. I wasn't even here for that. There is at least one other person who posts here who writes very similar stuff. I only know it because I am constantly amazed to see stuff I probably would have written done by someone else. What's really weird is to see something so "me" but know it's someone else's words. That's how close some of this stuff is. Kind of creeps me out a little, but in a good way since I am saved the trouble of coming up with it on my own.
      Hey, if someone's copying me, at least they are being somewhat flattering. But now I feel like my voice isn't all that important anymore because all that generic stuff is so easily said by others. Plus I cannot post under any regular name thanks to one or two people who know who they are.
      I still chime in once in a while. Technical stuff mostly. But I thank you for taking the time to write this post.
      It's not just me and BG, it's our reaction patterns and emotional instability. You can't fix that with a post unless it's upside our heads at high velocity. And others do the same. I'd rather get it out in the open even if others flee at that point. So many religious who refuse to answer direct questions! If there was a system for detecting false beliefs that would surely be on the list of tests to be done.
      I have fans here. Some of them fight with words I would have used. They do not use names I would have picked. They do not stay with one name like you usually do. So perhaps you are thinking some words were from me but were not.
      Just sayin. But some stuff I do is nasty, so it doesn't matter much, I guess.
      My problem with BG is many-fold. I'm not going into all the ways I've tried to discuss things with him. I'm not going to list all the things we've gone through. I usually ignore him unless he is saying things too stupid to let pass.
      There isn't much reason to post here, you know. It's just a backwoods blog with the occasional "salmon run" of people linking from the main page with the occasional article worth discussing. My peaceful intentions are a curious thing.
      They aren't usually peaceful, you see, but you knew that.
      I'm surprised you felt the need to say anything after all this time, really. But thanks anyway. It's very nice of you to try.
      Without name protection, there isn't much I can do to change how things are going. You should have written a letter to CNN instead. Maybe they'd listen to you. They sure as hell aren't listening to me.

      June 26, 2011 at 7:10 am |
    • BG

      I figured I'd give you first opportunity to respond. Just for the hell of it. A couple of weak mea culpas, a bit of mild self-deprication, and *pop* off to the races in attack mode. So, Dude, as usual, you've failed in yet another chapter of "how to work and play well with others."

      "They sure as hell aren't listening to me."
      Why should they? Why should I? This blog has become tedious. Too many kids. Too much crap. It's just not worth it.

      @ Peace2All

      Thank you for the sincere effort. I should have worded my 'request' to you along the lines of "If you have any influence with SumDude could you please attempt..." Instead, due to frustration, I made it sound like a mandate. That was wrong of me. Peace, you've truly been a bright spot for me on the blog – I've appreciated your friendship and banter. I believe that we've both grown through the process. Unfortunately, that's not going to be repeated with the Dude and I.

      I'm going to take a break from the frustration. I need to finish my home renos and, right now, there's been some seriously diminished returns on my time invested here. I'll give you a shout if/when I come back.

      Regards,
      Jim

      June 26, 2011 at 8:09 am |
    • Night Watchman

      @BG – Who says I have to play well with others? Where is it written that this is a requirement? Bah. You are a prlck and that's not going to change no matter how long you stay away. You can't help it. That's okay. It takes two to tango and you've always been willing to mix it up in the street, so don't try to act like you are some sort of saint. I mean really. *shakes head*
      So you were just waiting for me to answer first so you could make some snide remark? Wow. Real classy dude.

      June 26, 2011 at 9:03 am |
    • BG

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJavyAVJFQ&w=640&h=390]

      June 26, 2011 at 9:37 am |
    • No Java O Stupid One

      Wow, look at that amazingly ugly yellow square posted by my troll-brother BG. I wonder what it means.
      Too bad I won't ever know. It is probably something really nasty. I know BG well enough to not bother.
      Some people don't learn very well. I'd say my brother BG is not in top form today. Have a nice day, BG.

      June 26, 2011 at 10:12 am |
    • Night Watchman

      If I wasn't so afraid of Java I could actually see this stuff... Maybe I should use the computer at the public library?

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLp8C2OfkqY&w=640&h=390]

      June 26, 2011 at 10:18 am |
    • *shakes head*

      You have to impersonate me again, BG?
      Why? You couldn't simply say whatever snide remarks you were trying to say anyway?

      Totally pathetic. And here I was being nice, too. Feel all better now? Good. Glad I could help.

      June 26, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
  12. GSA

    @Rainer – then we should also judge christianity by the bible and that would not bode well for Christians.
    Wilder lives in fear because he has no knowledge on what he speaks of.
    @Doc – great post, very well said.

    June 24, 2011 at 11:16 am |
    • jack docherty

      muslims are good people
      they just do not understand the evil of their false prophet

      June 24, 2011 at 11:32 am |
    • GodPot

      Christians are good people
      they just do not understand the evil of their false prophet

      June 24, 2011 at 12:57 pm |
    • .

      Theists are good people.
      They just do not understand the evil of their false profit.

      June 24, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • Alex

      "Theists are good people.
      They just do not understand the evil of their false profit."

      Quoted for truth.

      June 24, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • Mangonel upside yer haids

      Good people are good people, but only when they are being good people. Otherwise they are just people.

      June 25, 2011 at 1:10 am |
  13. Rainer Braendlein

    Thus we must make a worst case calculation and judge the Islam on the basis of Koran:

    June 24, 2011 at 10:02 am |
    • jack docherty

      no
      we must also read the hadith

      the koran is what the false prophet made up about what god said to him in his convulsive confusion
      but tells you nothing about the deeds of the false prophet mohammad

      to learn about the deeds of the false prophet mohammad you must read the hadith
      which tells you about the evil deeds of the filthy false prophet mohammad

      June 24, 2011 at 10:16 am |
    • Nonimus

      Seriously, how does one tell a false prophet from a "real" one?

      June 24, 2011 at 2:04 pm |
  14. Rainer Braendlein

    First Amendment valid today?

    June 24, 2011 at 9:58 am |
  15. Rainer Braendlein

    Regarding the Islam debate, it is important to get an objective assessment of the Koran.

    According to our Christian tradition and culture we (citizens of Western World) love our fellow citizens independent from their religion, colour, nationality, etc.. We are democratic. Nevertheless we are not naive.

    June 24, 2011 at 9:53 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      Let us have a look on the Koran. I have read it once and read it now the second time. Fair enough when Muslim leaders tell us something about moderate Islam. Nobody can guarantee that they will not return to a literal interpretation of the Koran.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:00 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      Thus we must make a worst case calculation and assess the Islam on the basis of Koran:

      June 24, 2011 at 10:03 am |
    • Up Your Rear Admiral

      Rainer is a dork.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:05 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      The Koran rejects the Trinity (the doctrine of Trinity is the basic doctrine of Christianity!)

      The Koran rejects the devine sonship of Jesus Christ.

      The Koran condemns Jews and Christians.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:05 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      Muhammad sees the Islam as the sole valid religion. According to the Koran, Muhammad is much higher than Jesus Christ.
      According to Mohammad, Christianity and Judaism have no more right to exist, because Islam is the religion of completion

      June 24, 2011 at 10:07 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      According to Koran, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus were Islamic leaders. The Koran sees the ancient ordinary
      Christians and Jews as muslim believers, having turned apostate. Muhammad has understood that merely a few of the people of Israel have reached the promised land. Most of them died in the desert, because they were disobedient. There death in the desert is a proof for Muhammad that they had turned apostate. Thus in the whole Koran Christian and Jews are condemned, because in Muhammad eyes they are Muslims, having turned apostate. In Muhammad eyes confessing Moslems are the sole true believers on earth.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:09 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      In conclusion: We should love our Muslim neighbours, but we should never tolerate, if they start to take over rule in our home countries. When the Moslems have dominion, democracy is over. Look at current Islamic countries and realize how "democratic" they are. God may prevent Islamic rule. God forbid!

      June 24, 2011 at 10:12 am |
    • gozer

      Any belief system demanding adherence to the dictates of a purported supreme being is inherently undemocratic.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:32 am |
    • Frogist

      @Rainier: You say we are not naive but put up a naive statement meant to be comparison that we in the West love everyone despite race, religion, nationality. Geert Wilders is proving you very wrong right now by not showing love for his muslim neighbours. He's not even showing tolerance. He's not even showing mild disdain. He is showing all out hate and fear.

      June 24, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
    • Muneef

      Rainer.

      Where from you get your crazy stories about Islam from? I hope you wouldn't tell me from the Bible!?

      Islam meaning is "Submission to One God" and that was Abrahams Religion on which all the Prophets before him and after him had followed until "Issa the Son of Mary" then as our Friend """gozar"""mentioned that ( God did not need a scapegoat story stolen from earlier fictions)....doesn't that look like a fine line of poetry that summarized the whole situation of the crime that took place against a prophet and messenger of God became a dead sin taker...??

      God then created and chosen Muhammed from the Sons of Ismael to bring back the message of Abraham "monotheism" to lead back the mislead...!
      All religions "Judaism,Christianity and Islam" are the religions of God provided they are back to monotheism worshiping the one God who had no partners,nor a female friend nor a son...that is 95% of Islam...!

      June 24, 2011 at 11:11 pm |
    • Muneef

      Rainer.

      Am not anti-Christ nor Anti-Jewish just like all Muslims am a monotheist so must be rather Anti-Polytheists & Disbelievers....but believe me it is not hatred but rather pityness for the innocents and hardness towards the wicked transgressors... Guess that is all about it unless few of our brother got the message wrong !?! Since we learned from the Quran verses that there will be in paradise from the Jews,Christian and others from other beliefs...and since God forgives any thing else other than to assign for him partners as polytheists do, then that means many of Christians and Jews are monotheist towards God although might show otherwise of fears from dominant doctrine...
      As it seems few Christians have realized some how they were wrong some where, then had to introduce that Trinity to correct it to show as if monotheist but made another mistake by having God the One Divided into Three then and remained Divided as Three as now and for eternity....!? Unless I am mistaken with my understanding then forgive me. Thanks
      -----–

      The Unforgivable Sin
      [4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.

      [4:49] Have you noted those who exalt themselves? Instead, GOD is the One who exalts whomever He wills, without the least injustice.

      [4:50] Note how they fabricate lies about GOD; what a gross offense this is!

      [4:51] Have you noted those who received a portion of the scripture, and how they believe in idolatry and false doctrine, then say, "The disbelievers are better guided than the believers?!"

      [4:52] It is they who incurred GOD's condemnation, and whomever GOD condemns, you will not find any helper for him.
      ----

      The Unforgivable Sin
      [4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death),* and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.

      [4:117] They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact, they only worship a rebellious devil.

      [4:118] GOD has condemned him, and he said, "I will surely recruit a definite share of Your worshipers.

      [4:119] "I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to (forbid the eating of certain meats by) marking the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD." Anyone who accepts the devil as a lord, instead of GOD, has incurred a profound loss.

      [4:120] He promises them and entices them; what the devil promises is no more than an illusion.

      [4:121] These have incurred Hell as their final abode, and can never evade it.
      ------–

      God

      [6:100] Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.

      [6:101] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son, when He never had a mate? He created all things, and He is fully aware of all things.

      [6:102] Such is GOD your Lord, there is no god except He, the Creator of all things. You shall worship Him alone. He is in control of all things.

      [6:103] No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.

      [6:104] Enlightenments have come to you from your Lord. As for those who can see, they do so for their own good, and those who turn blind, do so to their own detriment. I am not your guardian.

      [6:105] We thus explain the revelations, to prove that you have received knowledge, and to clarify them for people who know.

      [6:106] Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers.

      [6:107] Had GOD willed, they would not have worshipped idols. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate.

      [6:108] Do not curse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.
      ------

      June 24, 2011 at 11:25 pm |
  16. Muneef

    Not all Hadiths are genuine, most of them are Israelites...our messenger was a messenger of morals and ethics...

    June 24, 2011 at 9:27 am |
    • jack docherty

      no you are wrong
      most hadith are accepted as sunnah
      only few are hadith but not sunnah

      your comment seems to me (i am not christian or jewish) to be anti-jewish

      June 24, 2011 at 9:53 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      @Muneef

      Did you already know that Jesus died for your sins. Are you perfect or do you need a Redeemer?

      June 24, 2011 at 10:18 am |
    • gozer

      Rainer, how come your god needed a scapegoat story stolen from earlier fictions to get rid of sin? Quite the plagiarist and weakling, that "god" of yours.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:28 am |
    • Muneef

      gozar.

      Haha...so funny you are fantastic...you made my night Thanks,now I can go for my faker prayers peacefully...

      June 24, 2011 at 9:22 pm |
    • Muneef

      gozar.

      Haha...so funny you are fantastic...you made my night Thanks,now I can go for my fajer prayers peacefully...

      June 24, 2011 at 9:23 pm |
    • Muneef

      Jack.

      Am not anti-Christ nor Anti-Jewish just like all Muslims am a monotheist so must be rather Anti-Polytheists

      June 24, 2011 at 9:29 pm |
    • Muneef

      Jack.

      Am not anti-Christ nor Anti-Jewish just like all Muslims am a monotheist so must be rather Anti-Polytheists & Disbelievers....but believe me it is not hatred but rather pityness for the innocents and hardness towards the wicked transgressors... Guess that is all about it unless few of our brother got the message wrong !?! Since we learned from the Quran verses that there will be in paradise from the Jews,Christian and others from other beliefs...and since God forgives any thing else other than to assign for him partners as polytheists do, then that means many of Christians and Jews are monotheist towards God although might show otherwise of fears from dominant doctrine...
      As it seems few Christians have realized some how they were wrong some where, then had to introduce that Trinity to correct it to show as if monotheist but made another mistake by having God the One Divided into Three then and remained Divided as Three as now and for eternity....!? Unless I am mistaken with my understanding then forgive me. Thanks

      June 24, 2011 at 10:25 pm |
    • Muneef

      The Unforgivable Sin
      [4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.

      [4:49] Have you noted those who exalt themselves? Instead, GOD is the One who exalts whomever He wills, without the least injustice.

      [4:50] Note how they fabricate lies about GOD; what a gross offense this is!

      [4:51] Have you noted those who received a portion of the scripture, and how they believe in idolatry and false doctrine, then say, "The disbelievers are better guided than the believers?!"

      [4:52] It is they who incurred GOD's condemnation, and whomever GOD condemns, you will not find any helper for him.
      ----

      The Unforgivable Sin
      [4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death),* and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.

      [4:117] They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact, they only worship a rebellious devil.

      [4:118] GOD has condemned him, and he said, "I will surely recruit a definite share of Your worshipers.

      [4:119] "I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to (forbid the eating of certain meats by) marking the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD." Anyone who accepts the devil as a lord, instead of GOD, has incurred a profound loss.

      [4:120] He promises them and entices them; what the devil promises is no more than an illusion.

      [4:121] These have incurred Hell as their final abode, and can never evade it.
      ------–

      June 24, 2011 at 10:40 pm |
    • jack docherty

      i believe i know more about islam than you do
      i have read the koran and the hadith
      i believe you are so ignorant that you have never even heard of the hadith

      i am not christian or jewish
      i am not monotheist
      but i have studied the major world religions as individual subjects at university level
      the trouble here is that most posters have never studied world religion

      June 25, 2011 at 8:57 pm |
  17. Frogist

    I'm not exactly sure where the line is between illegally inciting hatred and free speech in the courts of Austria. But I do know that if he is trying to make people's religion illegal and calling the Qu'ran Mein Kampf, well, that is inciting hatred and trying to curtail the freedom of religion in his country too. And that's pretty low for any person in a position of political power to do. He's doing desp-icable, ugly things for his xenophobia. Is it odd that he's backed by the white, middle class sector? I don't know.

    June 24, 2011 at 9:26 am |
    • jack docherty

      what you do not seem to understand is that
      the murdering, thieving, slavetrading life of the false prophet mohammad
      is an object of derision, scorn and disgust by decent moral people

      June 24, 2011 at 10:07 am |
    • LinCA

      Hey Frogist. Where did you get the Austria reference? The subject of the article is a bigoted politician in The Netherlands.

      June 24, 2011 at 11:17 am |
    • GodPot

      what you do not seem to understand is that
      the murdering, thieving, slavetrading life of many followers of Christ in the past
      is an object of derision, scorn and disgust by decent moral people

      June 24, 2011 at 1:04 pm |
    • Frogist

      @Linca: Wrong country, my bad! My sentiment still stands.
      @jack doherty: Sorry if I'm not decent enough for you.

      June 24, 2011 at 4:53 pm |
    • citations needed

      @Frogist
      Have you even read the Q'uran? It reads like a holy-let's-kill-everyone book.
      I'm often amazed that any Muslim finds the time to be peaceful, but maybe that's only when they are by themselves...
      ..but you're a decent sort, so I'm just sayin...

      June 25, 2011 at 1:15 am |
  18. jack docherty

    i thought that according to the hadith mohammad the false prophet was
    a murderer of innocent men
    a thief of their property
    a rapist of their wives and children
    a slavetrader of their wives and children

    is this not true?
    is the hadith full of lies?

    June 24, 2011 at 8:36 am |
  19. Philthy

    Anyone who has questions about Islam or the Koran should read (or listen to ) the book "The Complete Infidels Guide to the Koran". Sura 9 explains all that anyone who is not a muslim needs to know about this "peaceful" religion.

    June 24, 2011 at 8:31 am |
  20. hammad

    i am a muslim and i think geert wilders is an idiot but i dont think he should undergo trial i believe in freedom and democracy and i believe that he has as much freedom to speak his mind as skin heads do to deny the holocaust

    June 24, 2011 at 7:38 am |
    • jack docherty

      the problem is that most muslims have never read the hadith
      i love all people and therefore i love all muslims but
      i do believe that mohammad the false prophet was an evil man
      i think innocent muslims are just deluded by his reputation without ever studying his evil life

      June 24, 2011 at 8:41 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      @hammad

      I am not an adherent of Wilders. However, when you had ever understood what is freedom and democracy, you would never dare to call Wilders an idiot.

      I don't know Wilder's motivation (it may be bad), but obviously he has not insulted muslim people, but merely criticized the Islam.

      I have read the Koran and read it and I must say: The Koran is an antichristian and antijewish concoction, made-up by Muhammad. Case closed.

      June 24, 2011 at 8:43 am |
    • Frogist

      @Hammad: I agree. He has the right to say awful things and make people understand how much of a terrible person he is. I hope people realise he does not have the right to curtail anyone's religious freedom because he's a bigot.

      @Rainier: The capacity to call Wilders an idiot falls under freedom of speech which Wilders himself says he supports.

      June 24, 2011 at 9:37 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      @Frogist

      Dear Frogist go to any Islamic country and call its king idiot. You will lose your head within seconds.

      I have no knowledge about Wilders, but obviously he has merely criticized a doctrine, but no people.

      June 24, 2011 at 9:48 am |
    • Doc

      I don’t hate him, I feel sorry for him. People tend to fear that which they don’t understand, therefore I’ll to keep this as simple as possible so that people like Geert Wilders can understand. I am a Muslim. Yet I have Christian friends. Do they fear me??? No they don’t, because they understand what Islam is all about. We are not told to hate other religions, we are told to respect them. Islam is about peace and not war. I’ve not tried to force Islam on anyone but yet many of the non-Muslims I know have converted to Islam. Why??? Because they were exposed to Islam daily. They weren’t the ones who allowed themselves to be swayed to hate the religion by all the propaganda that much of the world sees and believes. Yes, there are those who claim to be fighting their Jihad in the name of Islam. They are by far the minority. Yet there are cases where fighting is justified. If someone threatens to kill your family or friends or keep you imprisoned for their own greed, anyone, Muslim or not would fight back. It has nothing to do with religion.
      Islam is not the easiest religion to understand until you’ve lived it or been exposed to it on a daily on a personal level and not what you see on TV or at the movies. So please don’t hate us, understand us. If a Christian or even a group of Christians should hurt anyone of my family members. I will not hate their religion because I know that it’s not the will of their God but just a few individuals out to do harm. There is soooo much more that I’d like to say but I guess this is enough for now.
      If I managed to change the view of just one reader then I my job was done. I don’t plan to change the world, I just hope to make the world understand.
      Thanks for reading

      June 24, 2011 at 9:58 am |
    • Up Your Rear Admiral

      Rainer is an adhering dork.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:06 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      @Doc

      Hi!

      I really appreciate that you are a correct man. There may be a moderate Islam, which you seem to belong to. However the Koran is anti-christian and anti-jewish. Sorry, that is a matter of fact. I have read the whole Koran.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:25 am |
    • JohnR

      @Hammad I agree on both counts. Wilders is a jerk. But I'd prefer to err on the side of free speech in all but the most egregious of cases.

      June 24, 2011 at 10:46 am |
    • JohnR

      @Rainer Wilders IS an idiot!!!!

      June 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • Frogist

      @Rainier: Since when does what happens in any Islamic country have to do with freely expressing that Wilders is an idiot in my country? If Wilders is a proponent of free speech, he needs to understand that means criticism of him falls under that freedom.

      June 24, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.