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Child's grisly murder shocks Jewish Brooklyn neighborhood
The scene on Wednesday in front of the residence where Leiby Kletzky lived.
July 14th, 2011
04:53 PM ET

Child's grisly murder shocks Jewish Brooklyn neighborhood

By Dan Gilgoff and Eric Marrapodi, CNN

Brooklyn, New York (CNN) – An 8-year-old's grisly murder would shock any community, but there's an added layer of astonishment in this neighborhood because the alleged killer appears to hail from the same close-knit religious community as the victim.

On Thursday, New York police charged a 35-year-old man with the killing of Leiby Kletzky, an Orthodox Jewish boy, after officers found human remains in the man's refrigerator and a trash bin.

The alleged killer also appears to be an Orthodox Jew who lived relatively nearby to Kletzky, according to community members.

"You can't possibly describe how tragic this is and how upset people are this boy was murdered by a person living in the community, who shares his religion and his neighborhood," said Ezra Friedlander, who lives in Borough Park, the neighborhood where Kletzky went missing on Monday.

On Thursday, Levi Aron was arraigned on first degree murder and kidnapping charges in Brooklyn in connection with Kletzky's death.

"It would have been extremely scary if a terrorist would have come into the community and killed a boy, but when it's one of your own you feel even more vulnerable," said Friedlander, a public relations executive who represents many Orthodox Jewish clients.

"The level of fear that mothers and fathers and children here are experiencing is something that I never witnessed before," he said.

Police say the 35-year-old Levi Aron made statements Wednesday implicating himself in the death of Leiby Kletzky.

Kletzky was supposed to meet his parents after walking seven blocks from his summer day camp, but became lost and asked the suspect for directions, New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

Menachem Freed, a 37-year-old Orthodox Jew whose 9-year-old son was Kletzky's classmate, said the community prides itself on its faith-based unity.

Borough Park is composed mostly of Hasidic Jews and non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox Jews of Eastern European descent. Signs for everything from pediatricians' offices to a pizza parlor are in both Hebrew and English.

Families with young children are everywhere, with streams of women pushing strollers down sidewalks and bearded Hasidic men piloting minivans through narrow streets.

"We all believe in the same ideas," Freed said, standing outside his son's preschool, where he showed up Thursday to help children deal with the murder.

On Monday night, Freed and his family had joined with other Orthodox Jews from the neighborhood to search for Kletzky.

The neighborhood's Jewish security patrol force - called the shomrim - searched for the boy through the night.

Working from surveillance video that showed Aron entering a dentist's office Monday while Kletzky waited for him across the street for seven minutes, police arrived at Aron's residence at 2:40 a.m. Wednesday to ask about the boy's whereabouts.

The suspect pointed them to the kitchen, where blood was visible on the freezer handle. Inside the refrigerator was a cutting board with three blood-spattered carving knives, Kelly said.

"A lot of people were saying that they would think differently about what they would allow their children to do," said Josh Nathan-Kazis, a staff writer for the Jewish newspaper The Forward, who is covering neighborhood reaction to Kletzky's murder.

"When you're there, it feels like a small town: Everybody knows each other," said Nathan-Kazis, describing Borough Park. "The fact that the alleged perpetrator was more or less from the same community, it's like they don't know who to trust."

There are questions about how active Aron was in the Jewish community, but pictures of him that have surfaced show him in traditional Orthodox Jewish dress.

New York State Assemblyman Dov Hikind said the largely insular Orthodox neighborhood bred a sense of trust among adults and children.

"Borough Park is a largely Hasidic, Orthodox neighborhood - most people have beards and side curls," he said. "Often kids will trust someone who looks like their father or looks like their friend or like their teachers and say, 'Oh, this guy must be safe."

"This is not the case, never should have been the case," he continued. "You've got to be very, very careful. You've got to teach your kids. You've got to talk to your kids."

A young father who was pushing two strollers with children in Borough Park on Thursday said his rabbis told him to explain to his children that such a murder only happens "once in 10 years or even once in a lifetime."

Like many Orthodox Jews interviewed here, the man declined to give his name.

Nathan-Kazis said that rumors had begun emerging in Borough Park's Orthodox community that portrayed Aron as something of an outsider.

One such rumor suggested that Aron is a Sephardic Jew - meaning of Spanish of North African descent - unlike most Borough Park Jews, who are Ashkenazi, or of Eastern European descent.

"You could see the community struggling with the fact that the suspect is Jewish and lived nearby and at the same time protect a sense of safety in the community," Nathan-Kazis said.

Thousands of Orthodox Jews turned out for Kletzky's funeral on Wednesday.

On Thursday, community members organized an effort to initiate a Torah scroll in Kletzky's name.

"It's an extremely lofty way to elevate someone's memory," Friedlander said of the scroll. "Not every person has a Torah in their name."

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Judaism • New York • Uncategorized

soundoff (1,564 Responses)
  1. John

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSvqMBj-ig
    II

    July 18, 2011 at 1:33 am |
  2. John

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSvqMBj-ig
    I

    July 18, 2011 at 1:32 am |
  3. John

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSvqMBj-ig
    -*

    July 18, 2011 at 1:29 am |
  4. Hana

    Are there technical problems with CNN today?

    July 17, 2011 at 11:12 pm |
  5. BauerAndrea

    I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, GuruBids.com

    July 17, 2011 at 6:29 pm |
  6. JimInTX

    I thought Jews only killed Palestinians.

    July 17, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • ForestSound

      He's just one crazy, evil guy. Could have been from any background.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:43 pm |
    • ForestSound

      The whole world try to annihilate the Jews, therefore the world will face judgment from God.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:44 pm |
  7. Anah

    Or maybe Hitler was being molest when he was an alter boy and that brought so much hate unto him and made him a mass murderer and an atheist.

    July 17, 2011 at 1:35 pm |
    • Anah

      Insert at bottom of the page... this is in reply to Hana.

      July 17, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Hana

      Oh, clever you, now you changed your name to be mine in reverse. Why?

      Anyway, I dont see the point of your question. There is no evidence that Hitler was abused as an alter boy. He could have been, he could not have been. No evidence one way or the other. The purpose of my post was not to question why the man turned into the monster that he was. But rather to point out that he was neither Catholic NOR Atheist. Rather, somewhere in the middle. So, stop arguing over it.

      If the man was Atheist, then why allow for pagan rituals? If he was Atheist, then why did he believe in the power of religious artifacts that he tried so desperately to find? He definitely believed in something... even if it was some personal mythology that he disillusioned himself with.

      July 17, 2011 at 2:10 pm |
    • ForestSound

      Now every villain must be suspected of being a victim of filthy abuse from parents, teachers, police offices and relatives...

      July 17, 2011 at 7:50 pm |
  8. Mike Smith

    This is a TALMUDIC ritual I bet you!!

    July 17, 2011 at 8:43 am |
    • Hana

      The man was mentally ill and hearing voices. It has nothing to do with religion.

      July 17, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
  9. ForestSound

    May God comfort Israel very soon by the second coming of His Son Jesus... Israel had God Himself once before in her midst and it will happen again for all earthlings to see!

    July 17, 2011 at 6:21 am |
  10. fimeilleur

    Ummm... can't you read? I'm not American...and I'm not anti-Catholic, I'm anti Stu pid. Notice the respect I've always directed toward Hana... she is intelligent and well educated. I don't agree with her beliefs but I respect her knowledge. One day, her and I will debate on issues and I look forward to it. You, on the other hand... you're a piece of work... changing your screen name often, claiming to be hijacked... seriously now, is it so that it looks like more people agree with you? I find that dishonest. but that's just the status quo for you. isn't it?

    July 17, 2011 at 5:56 am |
    • fimeilleur

      Insert at bottom of the page... this is in reply to SnowViel / ForestSound

      July 17, 2011 at 5:59 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fimeilleur: Sorry I happen not to care whether people here express agreement with me or not. And if you don't believe me, that does not matter to me at this point, either. I gotta go. Have a beautiful Sunday.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:12 am |
    • fimeilleur

      So, tuck tail and run? all future posts from ForestSound or SnowViel should be considered hijacked then? Ok... I'll let you know when I come across one...

      July 17, 2011 at 6:16 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, Hi again. I'm not watching CNN news 24 hours a day! I'm already overdoing this!!

      July 17, 2011 at 6:19 am |
    • fimeilleur

      isn't that great though? I have just as much time to refute your claims as you have to make them. I guess it's a question of priorities. You think you have to save everyone... I ask from what?

      July 17, 2011 at 6:22 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, of course from the eternal damnation which is due because of sin. All true Christians have a holy duty to tell everyone the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only Way for mankind to be saved and receive eternal life. The reason God came to earth. He wasn't here for teaching alone but for atonement and redemption.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:33 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ ForestSound,
      What proof then, do you offer of the existence of Hell? Why should I fear a place that cannot be shown to exist? I may as well fear the sarlac pit on Tatooine. Your threats of eternal violence is what propagated your religious fairy tale for thousands of years. The church, particularly YOUR sect of it, is a bully, and sooner or later, the victims will stand up to it and expose it's weakness for all to find.

      July 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • ForestSound

      @fimeilleur, what proof do you need for existence of hell other than the sins in your own life? We see the total depravity of our own humanity, the warnings in the Bible, and the patterns in the world. God created you( your evil stupidity is your own choice) and did everything for you to get saved. You just need to look at your own life and to ask Jesus to save you because you are hopeless. God loves you.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:22 pm |
    • fimeilleur

      Your "proof" of hell is laughable. Crimes are committed therefore that is proof of prison. Makes no sense... proof of prison is the four walls and security that suround them. Then there are the people who have been incarcerated in them and been released from them. THAT is proof.

      What proof of sins in MY life are you referring to? Like I've pointed out to you before... the only thing you can accuse me of is denying the existance of your god. I also deny the existance of Vishnu... Is that a sin? what about Thor? Zeus? Saturn? Buddha? You are a joke.

      July 18, 2011 at 1:13 am |
    • Muneef

      Hell is on earth a small example of it is to see the volcano and the red Hod melted rivers of fires as a result of such action, some you can hear hiss like mintioned in the quran..

      [67:6] For those who disbelieved in their Lord, the retribution of Gehenna. What a miserable destiny.

      [67:7] When they get thrown therein, they hear its furor as it fumes.

      [67:8] It almost explodes from rage. Whenever a group is thrown therein, 

      July 18, 2011 at 1:41 am |
  11. fimeilleur

    Ummm... can't you read? I'm not American...and I'm not anti-Catholic, I'm anti Stupid. Notice the respect I've always directed toward Hana... she is intelligent and well educated. I don't agree with her beliefs but I respect her knowledge. One day, her and I will debate on issues and I look forward to it. You, on the other hand... you're a piece of work... changing your screen name often, claiming to be hijacked... seriously now, is it so that it looks like more people agree with you? I find that dishonest. but that's just the status quo for you. isn't it?

    July 17, 2011 at 5:53 am |
  12. fimeilleur

    Ummm... can't you read? I'm not American...and I'm not anti-Catholic, I'm anti Stupid. Notice the respect I've always directed toward Hana... she is intelligent and well educated. I don't agree with her beliefs but I respect her knowledge. One day, her and I will debate on issues and I look forward to it. You, on the other hand... you're a piece of work... changing your screen name often, claiming to be hyjacked... seriously now, is it so that it looks like more people agree with you? I find that dishonest. but that's just the status quo for you. isn't it?

    July 17, 2011 at 5:47 am |
  13. Zaramart-kippot

    Jews all over the world are united and feel as a big family.That's why we feel deep in our hearts every tragedy.
    To hear this kind of atrocities hurts no matter if the child is a jew or not.
    http://www.a-zara.com/

    July 17, 2011 at 2:32 am |
  14. Muataz

    If a Christian killed a Christian ... Its Normal... If a Muslim killed a Muslim ... TERRORISTS ! If A Jew Kills A Jew.... No comment.

    why are they making a big deal about this... Is it because he is Jewish ! There are million murderers out there.. why dont they put it on CNN....

    Jews are taking over Palestine... Jews are taking over The Media... Jews are taking over the WORLD

    Greedy people

    July 17, 2011 at 12:56 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Muataz: Are you stupid? It's Muslims who kep butchering all kinds of infidels all the time, making women and children miserable like hell. You never gave anyone freedom or human rights for your entire history. It's Christianity that saved the world and made it a civil place. Israel(the Jews) is forever the Almighty God's treasure, you can't even touch her. Read the Bible to find out truth. You may get some of God's will by Qu'ran, but never the way to salvation or meaning of the human history without the Bible. You need to trust in the Divine Savior Jesus for your salvation because your good never outweighs your bad.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:13 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ ForestSound,

      You sound a LOT like SnowViel... I thought Hana defeated you earlier tonight... back for another whooping?

      July 17, 2011 at 5:16 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, I am SnowVeil. My name was hijacked again so I came up with a new one. I have lots of ideas on phrases; I hope you'll enjoy. I'll try more variety. I don't comment to defeat anyone but to throw ideas to encourage authentic study. I know authentic study and logic lead to Christianity, though it's the Holy Spirit who regenerates human hearts. I'd like to answer Hana but then I have to answer everyone else which I have no time on that same page. I don't trust myself for keeping my time. I'm hoping she will come back to me with her important points.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:28 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ ForestSound/ SnowViel,
      I've been on this blog most of the night... I've not come across ONE hijacked post from you... why the dishonesty?

      July 17, 2011 at 5:50 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, either you did not read every comment or thought a fake was me. If you have time to read all the comments in CNN blog, do something else. What a waste of time. In any case, it's my freedom to change the handle name. And I never hide. I only have some time.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:04 am |
    • Hana

      @ ForestSound

      Once again, please research things before making incorrect claims.

      The Qur'an specifically gives women the freedom to own money, to own property, to hold a job, to gain inheritance, to refuse marriage, to seek a divorce, the right to life and protection.

      Of course, like I have said before. There are many Muslims that do not follow this today and at times in history. But, the religion still gives these rights. There are many accounts throughout the history of Islamic Law of women going to the courts to protect their rights from fathers, brothers or husbands who seek to take the womans property or money, or those who are abusive. So strong was the social rejection of abusing women in the Ottoman Turkish society that they looked at Christian Europeans as barbarians for their treatment of women.

      The Bible on the other hand does not offer such rights to women. Yes, Jesus was kind toward women. Other Church figures were not so kind. It was not until secular societies had developed separating religion and government that so called "Christian" countries started coming up with secular laws to give women these same rights. It was only in the last 100 years or so that a Christian woman was not treated like property.

      July 18, 2011 at 12:44 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ Hana,

      I <3 You. 😉

      July 18, 2011 at 12:58 am |
  15. pitu

    I don't understand why so defensive. In reading SnowVeil's message, I read a quote from the book of Revelations Chapt 21. I do not sense pushy religion. In any case, we grieve dearly for young Kletsky, and pray for justice for the horrible murderer.

    July 16, 2011 at 11:50 pm |
    • atomD21

      I should clarify a bit. Not trying to be defensive, just think that the religious side of this can take a backseat a bit to the human side. I'm a Christian, so I'm not attacking people for that, just to be clear. I just think that a bit more "how terrible for that family!" would be better than reminding them of what they already know, that God loves them.

      July 17, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
  16. atomD21

    Why in God's name is this comment thread turning into a place of "Jesus loves the Jews too?" How inappropriate can we be? First off, Jesus was Jewish, so duh. Second, this piece is about the horrific abduction and murder of a child by a hidden monster in a very trusting community in NY, not about the Jewish faith and it's feelings about Jesus. Let's put our pharisaical need to proselytize aside and show condolonces for the familty of this boy! I cannot imagine the heartbreak and agony they are going through right now. Not only that, but the damage to the trust in the community that one man caused is terrible.

    July 16, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • Busymomofthree

      Thank you, it's nice to hear there are still people who empathise and can look beyond religion. I hope the little boys family can find the strength to carry on their lives for the sake of their other kids, as a parent I am deeply worried about the evil things people do and say, religion can't begin to make sense of those....

      July 17, 2011 at 7:25 am |
  17. Reality

    "Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]

    Martin Luther "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]

    July 16, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
  18. John

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSvqMBj-ig
    !|

    July 16, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
    • pw

      quit spamming your lousy track on here

      July 17, 2011 at 1:25 am |
    • Q

      Finally clicked it. Terrible derivative elevator music...

      July 17, 2011 at 2:39 am |
  19. SnowVeil

    Jews, please be comforted; God said these words in Jesus for you.
    "3 And I heard a loud voice from the Throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. 5 He who was seated on the Throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Revelation chapter 21)

    July 16, 2011 at 12:15 pm |
    • Reality

      "Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]

      Martin Luther "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]
      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      July 16, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
    • SnowVeil

      Reality, your quotes are maliciously out of context. Anyone can do that against you. Anyone who read the actual text of the Book of Revelation know it is the inspired Word of God. It's the grand conclusion of the Holy Bible. Genesis, Ezekiel, Daniel and Jesus' teachings cannot be undestood fully without Revelation.

      July 17, 2011 at 4:55 am |
    • Reality

      SnowVeil or whomever she is today vs. Thomas Jefferson? Hmmm?

      July 17, 2011 at 7:51 am |
    • fimeilleur

      ForestSound is her new one.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:59 am |
    • ForestSound

      I like the sounds in the forest... better than music, sometimes. I long for it.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:53 pm |
  20. SnowVeil

    Dear Jews, you'll never understand the Book of Daniel unless you read the Book of Revelation in the New Testament Bible. Please take heart. Your God loves you and sent His only Son for you.

    July 16, 2011 at 12:14 pm |
    • Hana

      Dear SnowVeil,

      You will never understand Christianity until you learn to understand humankind. It is human nature, that when people shove their views down your throat (as you have been doing) that the people then turn around and run as fast as they can in the opposite direction.

      So, congratulations! Instead of welcoming people to the Christian faith or to Jesus Christ as you know him... you have pushed how ever many hundreds of people who read your posts further and further away from ever wanting to read a Bible or listen to anything you have to say.

      It is amazing what love, acceptance, and compassion can do for changing peoples minds (you know, the way that Jesus acted). But bitterness and judgement has a far more strong and lasting odor (the way you are acting).

      So, take stock in yourself before telling others what they should or should not do.

      This is not the time or place to preach to the Jews and condemn them for their faith. Show human compassion! It is a family and a community that is grieving. My heart aches for them.

      July 16, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
    • SnowVeil

      Hana, such era is over. Western blasphemists must face the facts and got over with a sugar-coated Gospel. In reality, unrepentant blasphemy gets no marcy. Doesn't deserve it. You feel threatened because you hate the idea of absolute Truth. I love the Jews and being told the truth is what they need the most.

      July 16, 2011 at 1:11 pm |
    • Gene

      Sorry, Hana, but such as SnowVeil are beyond reach. As is common (depressingly, banally common) to all religionists, Snow has the absolute truth in his/her faith and all others are beyond "marcy".

      The truth Snow will tell all Jews is that, if she did not accept Jesus Christ into her heart as her personal savior prior to her death in Auschwitz, (a pretty good asumption) Anne Frank is today in eternal torment with her murderer.

      But, hey, he/she loves the Jews and wants to give them this loving message of the loving God.

      July 16, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
    • Hana

      It is ok Gene, I felt the need to post it. I knew at the time that SnowVeil would probably not even recognize the truth in it.

      And SnowVeil... lets get one thing clear. Your responses to me that go off on the "Western blasphemists" and "sugar-coated Gospel" is just fricken hillarious! I dont care what you think of Christians in the West.... I am MUSLIM!

      But, I will stand up and point out when you tell lies, in correct information and/or insult people when I see it. Which apparently you do a lot. Fortunately for you, I actually have a life and dont spend that much time in here to catch it all.

      July 16, 2011 at 9:53 pm |
    • SnowVeil

      @Gene, "no mercy" refers only to blasphemy with knowledge. Read the Book of Hebrews in NT, please. There are some mysterious realms of God that are unknown to humans, but we know God is loving and just and we can get saved by trusting in Jesus – God's Divine Savior. There is no other way. BTW, I'm a woman. @Hana, my writing on religion is straight from the Biblical Christian orthodoxy, though I humor about the American foreign relations time to time elsewhere. You cannot call Bible teaching a lie; you are simply being wrong. And definitely you are not Muslim enough. Read the Bible if you want the Truth.

      July 17, 2011 at 4:49 am |
    • fimeilleur

      I wonder if Gene is white enough? or if Hitler was Catholic enough? or if I'm french enough? or if SnowVeil is woman enough?

      I guess only God, and SnowVeil knows.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:01 am |
    • ForestSound

      ??? Hitler was demon-possessed Darwinian. Ask 1.1 billion Catolics if any of them adhere Hitler. Religiousity and race can be mixed but not gender. You Westeners are too confused on gender.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:21 am |
    • fimeilleur

      I KNEW IT!!!! Forest Sound IS SnowViel!!!!! Read mine kampf... you will find more than enough references to his catholic upbringing. Next search for the catholic church's excommunication of Hitler... keep looking, to this day you will NEVER find it. The catholic church celebrated the fuhrer's birthday well after his death... the rest of your comment is... nonsense.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:34 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Hana, I was SnowVeil and I'm a Christian woman and I always wanted to talk with a genuine Muslim woman in English. What did you want to tell me? One at a time, please. I may ignore you if your comments are too many or too lengthy. Keep them shorter with one subject at a time. Beware of fakes, those who pretend to be me; I'll do the same with you. You must find me by the content I write, not by my user name alone.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:36 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, you're just empty-headed anti-Catholic. Nowadays every villain insists they are American and I must believe all of them.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:38 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, Hitler practically sounds a lot like atheists to me. "Human population is a problem," you know... Tyrants always used religious names to justify their own evil causes.

      July 17, 2011 at 5:43 am |
    • fimeilleur

      So in your OPINION (to me) you think Hitler was an Atheist... although all proof to the contrary states he was a catholic... In your opinion... how old is the earth? Just curious.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:19 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, Hitler was no Catholic. He killed a lot of real Catholics along with the best Lutheran Germans. Read on Father Maximillian Kolbe for real Catholic and Dietrich Bonhoeffer for real Lutheran. Earth can have indefinite age if you want that way since interpretation of Genesis 1:1-2 and the meaning of the Hebrew word "day" is rather open. This is not a major doctrine of Christianity. Personally I believe earth is 7,000 – 6,000 years-old.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:28 am |
    • fimeilleur

      And the son of sam killed many americans... does this make him Not-American?
      So you are a young earth creationist... good... I needed to know the level of "D U M B" I was dealing with. You believe in the literal truth of the Bible, yes? Since I have your attention, answer this:

      Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
      Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

      Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
      Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

      Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
      Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

      Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
      Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.

      Which of the above are literally TRUE?

      July 17, 2011 at 6:35 am |
    • ForestSound

      Of course the universe including Planet Earth was created out of nothing by the direct creation act of God. You can adjust time if 6,000-year-old earth is too much to believe for you.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:36 am |
    • fimeilleur

      Answer the question please...

      Time is a constant... it is a worldwide, agreed concept.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:40 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, Genesis chapter 1 was an overall picture of creation and chapter 2 goes back in time and give a detailed account on specific aspects such as Garden of Eden. The Bible passages are not always chronological. Get a Study Bible. Most of answers to your questions are in the surrounding verses.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:42 am |
    • fimeilleur

      You're not answering the question. Are you saying that Chapter 1 is wrong?

      July 17, 2011 at 6:49 am |
    • ForestSound

      @Fime-, chapter 1 is a summary and chapter 2 goes into specific. It's a masterful literary device. Have you written an essay? The Bible is a fascinating literary treasure box. I like your kind of questions but I really need to go. See you tomorrow.

      July 17, 2011 at 6:52 am |
    • fimeilleur

      So, in summary, trees came before Adam, birds came before Adam, animals came before Adam, Eve came at the same time as Adam (LOL that sounds AWESOMELY funny) but specifically, Adam came before the trees, the birds, animals and (like usual) Adam came long before Eve (sounds about right). All this makes sense to you?

      July 17, 2011 at 6:57 am |
    • Hana

      @ SnowVeil/ForestSound... whatever

      Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You know nothing about me or my devotion to my faith. But, you claim that I am not Muslim enough??????

      Sorry honey, you have got that seriously wrong. Only GOD/ALLAH can judge if a person is or has done enough. For you to make that claim seems like you feel you are equal to God and that is a MAJOR sin in Islam, and I believe in Christianity as well... you know, "thou shalt not judge lest you be judged" etc.

      Maybe that church of yours has been sneaking some hallucinogenics into the incense.

      July 17, 2011 at 12:37 pm |
    • Hana

      @ SnowVeil/ForestSound... whatever

      And by the way, I never called the Bible a lie. But, your assertion that I did certainly is. I said that I will not stand for you to lie. I wont complain about your posting quotes of the Bible as the truth as you see it. I think it is inappropriate in this thread, but I wont call it a lie. But, when you make statements such as you did in another topic about how the only churches in the Middle East are for foreigners or just for show.... THAT, that right there is a lie. And when I see such things, I will take the time to correct those fallacies.

      July 17, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
    • Hana

      @ fimeilleur and ForestSound

      I recently did research on this very topic. Most of the claims of Hitler still being Catholic until he died were made by one Historian who apparently does not understand the Catholic church.

      As I have learned, there are many ways of excommunicating ones self from the Catholic church. And Hitler certainly did do those things. He would not have been considered a Catholic in good standing during most of his rise to power. Though he could not deny that he was raised to be a good Catholic and even served as an alter boy in his Catholic school, he later made very aggressive moves toward the Catholic church. He even went as far as imprisoning several members of the clergy. He also allowed for the development of more pagan rituals and such that directly defied the Church. Plus of course the major sins that he committed with the killings, camps, etc.

      Hitler may have been born a Catholic, but very definitely turned his back on the Catholic Church and excommunicated himself.

      The Pope at the time wrote many letters to the Catholic communities encouraging them to not participate in the Third Reich, or be swayed by the "unchristian" teachings of them. However, no known formal excommunication was made pubic at the time. Recently, one scholar claims to have found an excommunication order against Hitler and all members of the Nazi party. However, it has not been independently confirmed, nor was there any information given as to whether it was a draft or one that was signed and in effect. So, that is still up for debate. But, as Rome was surrounded by Mouselini who was buddy buddy with Hitler, I doubt the Pope would have been bold enough to formally declare it and face retribution at home.

      So, no, it does not appear that Hitler was officially Catholic while in power.

      I also have no proof that Hitler was Atheist.

      So, maybe he was lost somewhere in the middle.... with a little paganism mixed in.

      July 17, 2011 at 12:57 pm |
    • familiar

      @fimeilleur...Are you serious on your interpretations on the chapters and verses you quoted from the book of Genesis? Or, you were just trying to spoof-out SnowVeil. Just Curious.

      July 17, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
    • fimeilleur

      @ Hana,
      To this day, the RCC has yet to excommunicate Hitler, despite repeated requests for it to do so. They have however, excommunicated a 9 year old girl who was r aped by a family member, as well as her mother, who permitted the child to have an abortion. All this while extending forgiveness to the abuser... Sounds about right.

      @ familliar
      Very serious, and this is only in the first 2 chapters, there are many MANY more. Your book of "truths" is full of blatant lies, mis-information and factual inaccuracies... it makes a mockery of the word TRUE. Now prove me wrong.

      July 17, 2011 at 4:54 pm |
    • Hana

      @ fimeilleur

      I am not saying that the Catholic Church is wonderful and perfect. God knows that I dont think that they are. I am just saying that the lack of a formal excommunication does not automatically mean that Hitler was still a Catholic. In the Catholic Canon (I believe) there is actually a form of excommunication that is personal and is incurred at the time of the offense without the requirement for an ecclesiastical judge or formal orders from the Church itself. Catholics that I have talked to view Hitler in this category... excommunicated by his own actions, thus no longer Catholic.

      And, as I have understood it (granted I am not Catholic, so if I have this wrong, any Catholic is free to correct me), excommunication is the withholding of the sacraments and spiritual privileges that would be given to those within the community. By its very nature (and rules), it is NOT something that can be bestowed after death. After all, a person dead is no longer within the community, but within the jurisdiction of God himself. So, requesting for Hitler to be excommunicated after his death is a meaningless act.

      July 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • ForestSound

      @Fimeilleur, there is no contradiction in Genesis 1 and 2. As typical atheists do, you never read the text itself but just quoting a stupid anti-God fiction literature written by others. Adam was created last and then Eve the last of all. You are insulting the Bible you never read or have no idea about. @Hana, the Bible prohibits being judgmental, not judging things whether it's right or wrong. Read things with context. Hana, unless you are Muslim-born or live in the Middle East, you won't understand the injustice of having no religious freedom. You need to work for religious freedom for Muslims.

      July 17, 2011 at 8:12 pm |
    • Hana

      @ ForestSound

      First of all, to make a claim that I am "not Muslim enough" is not a judgement of right and wrong... it is simply being judgmental. As you agreed, that is a sin.

      Secondly, you have no idea of what I do or dont understand. I lived in Egypt for several years. I have met, talked to, become friends with a great many people there from ALL levels of society. And because I am American and not a born Muslim, many people are more willing to trust me and talk about the secrets and fear they live with when they are not considered socially acceptable or normal. I may not understand things the way someone who is living with the persecution is. But, I know more than most people do about it.

      I am completely honest about what is in the Qur'an verses culture. Islam is from the Qur'an and Hadith. Culture is the source of a great amount of confusion. I know that my fellow Muslims are like all of mankind, they interpret, pick and choose, and even deny what is written. I am no exception. I am not the perfect Muslim. So, I have no right to judge them, only to try to educate.

      July 18, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ Hana,
      Sorry, lost sight of this thread for a while... The RCC has post-humasly excommunicated people in the past, as they have also un-excommunicated people (Galileo for instance) this is nothing new. But as a symbolic gesture, there could be no bigger from the RCC.

      Keep giving ForestSound / SnowViel / SoundFromForest the gears... I've already lost it on her for her intellectual dishonesty, can't deal with much more of her. good luck and Peace.

      July 18, 2011 at 1:25 am |
    • fimeilleur

      @ ForestSound, Again with the dishonesty... I am not quoting atheist authors, I am quoting YOUR BIBLE!!!!! You are saying that Genesis 1:26-27 are wrong, Genesis 2: 4-9 and 19 are wrong. But they don't condradict. YOU ARE STUNNED! You are a liar. THOU SHALT NOT BARE FALSE WITNESS!!!!!!!

      July 18, 2011 at 1:32 am |
    • familiar

      @fimeilleur..

      Supposedly I still have two remaining presumptions after laerning that you were "very serious" about your interpretations. 1st was you knew that it was absolutely wrong interpretation but you had cleverly misinterpreted it to deceive other people. While the last thing that I wanted to think was you are really misguided and it's not belief that you lacked with but also reading comprehension skills. And honestly, I really hate to think that it's the latter but sadly with your preceeding statements on your reply shows that really it was, and you fail me.

      Now on the last line of your reply that says: "Now prove me wrong."

      Then, your wish is my command!

      The first chapter of Genesis tells about all things generally are created. Particularly in what day things are created. In other words, it's more on WHAT and WHEN. Meanwhile the 2nd chapter simply tells the specific ways and places things are created. Meaning, it's more on WHERE and HOW.

      In short, Genesis chapter 2 is an elaboration of the accounts of chapter 1. Better for you to read it again. And this time using that little thing (of a bird) inside your cranium that you may realize what I mean.

      July 18, 2011 at 2:37 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.