July 17th, 2011
05:55 AM ET

Vatican's battle with China over church control heats up

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN

The Vatican stepped up its battle with the Chinese Catholic Church this weekend, excommunicating a bishop who was ordained during the week without the pope's permission.

Pope Benedict XVI "deplored" the "illicit" ordination of the Rev. Joseph Huang Bingzhang and expelled him from the church because he was "ordained without papal mandate," the Vatican said Saturday.

He was the second bishop ordained by Chinese Catholics without Vatican permission in the past month, and at least the third in the past year, as Beijing and Rome struggle over control of the Catholic Church in China.

Huang Bingzhang was ordained as Bishop of the Diocese of Shantou in southeast China on Thursday, the Vatican said, although Rome had asked him "on numerous occasions not to accept episcopal ordination."

The Vatican said some local bishops had been forced to take part in the ordination, but did not make clear how it knew that.

It issued a stern condemnation after the Rev. Paul Lei Shiyin was ordained as bishop June 29, excommunicating him and saying he was "unacceptable to the Holy See as an episcopal candidate for proven and very grave reasons."

It took a similar line last November, when Joseph Guo Jincai was ordained a bishop without authority from Rome.

At the time, China charged the Vatican with interfering with religious liberty in China.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said then that the Chinese Catholic Church was independent and that any "intervention" constituted "restriction of freedom and nontolerance."

That was the first time since 2006 that China's Catholic Church was known to have anointed bishops without approval from Rome, the Vatican said in November.

The United States expressed serious concerned about religious freedom in China in its annual global report on the subject in November.

Despite some limited praise for Beijing, the State Department listed China as one of eight countries of "particular concern" on religious freedom.

It accused China of persecuting followers of the Dalai Lama in Tibet and Uyghur Muslims in western China.

Only Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Catholics and Protestants are allowed to practice their religions legally in China, the State Department said.

The Vatican's excommunication of Huang Bingzhang came on the same day that President Barack Obama met the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama in Washington.

That meeting prompted China to accuse the United States of "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people" and interfering with China's internal affairs.

CNN's Hada Messia and Stephen Jiang contributed to this report.

- Newsdesk editor, The CNN Wire

Filed under: Bishops • Catholic Church • China • Pope Benedict XVI • Religious liberty

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soundoff (184 Responses)
  1. David Johnson

    There were no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The Gospels were written by god knows who in the third person. The Gospels were written with an agenda i.e., Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God.

    We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    -Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

    The bottom line is we really don't know for sure who wrote the Gospels.
    -Jerome Neyrey, of the Weston School of Theology, Cambridge, Mass. in "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

    Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.
    -C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

    There are no known secular writings about Jesus, that aren't forgeries, later insertions, or hearsay. NONE!

    Most of the supposed authors lived AFTER Jesus was dead. Can you say hearsay?

    Philo of Alexandria (20 BC – 50 AD) a contemporary Jewish historian, never wrote a word about Jesus. This is odd, since Philo wrote broadly on the politics and theologies around the Mediterranean.

    Lucius Annaeus Seneca (ca. 4 BCE – 65 CE) A.K.A. Seneca the Younger. A contemporary of Jesus wrote extensively on many subjects and people. But he didn't write a word about a Jesus.

    Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), better known as Pliny the Elder, was a Roman author, naturalist, and natural philosopher. Plinius wrote "Naturalis Historia", an encyclopedia into which he collected much of the knowledge of his time. There is no mention of a Jesus.

    We don't even have a wooden shelf that Jesus might have built. Or anything written by Jesus. God incarnate, and we don't even have a Mother's day card signed by Him.

    July 28, 2011 at 12:23 pm |
  2. AvdBerg

    A number of people that have written to respond to this article have spoken of the interpretation of the Bible, which is the number one problem in this present world as the Bible itself teaches us that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). Only few people (Matthew 7:14) are able to understand the Bible and as long as mankind remains separated from God, the Word of God will remain a mystery.

    Mankind in his natural state is unable to understand the Bible and unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).

    There is a natural body and a spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:44). The only thing that separates the Natural body from the Spiritual body is the Baptism of Repentance (Mark 1:4). To repent means: to change spirits and to turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan, whose spirit mankind is of (Luke 9:55), unto God (Acts 26:18). This is not an interpretation. Many people search the Bible for in them they think they have eternal life, but when we bring them the Scriptures they don’t believe us (John 5:38,39). Confused? There is no need to be confused any longer. For a better understanding of the mystery of God we invite you to read all the pages and articles of our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca

    So, before mankind will be able to understand the Word of God, mankind requires to be converted and transformed by God (not by any religion) and only then mankind is able to understand the Bible, as it is God (John 1:1).

    All of the other pages and articles listed on our website explain how this whole world has been deceived as confirmed by the Word of God in Revelation 12:9. The Bible is true in all things and is the discerner of every thought and the intent of the heart (Hebrews 5:12).

    July 25, 2011 at 6:36 pm |
    • ....

      Still trolling trying to sell your cult and book it's complete garbage. Click the report abuse link to get rid of this troll.

      July 25, 2011 at 6:42 pm |
  3. hethathathanear


    July 22, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
  4. Dalton

    Maybe Popey should be more concerned with excommunicating those of his flock that bugger children and those who provide cover for it.

    July 22, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
  5. lolita wang

    I bet the Vatican didnt think that these Chinese dudes werent gay enough?

    July 20, 2011 at 5:26 pm |
  6. Jenna

    Expecting the Chinese to follow rules? Good luck

    July 20, 2011 at 12:04 pm |
  7. SoundOfForest

    All Catholics should be obedient to the Pope as long as he is right.

    July 19, 2011 at 10:40 pm |
    • HappyModerat

      Well no, the Church has apologized for its actions before. In effect, admiting error in action. However, Catholics must continue to follow the Church because the Church is God's and Jesus' emissary on Earth. So yeah, the Pope might slip up but so long as he keeps preaching the true word of God we Catholics have got to listen to him.

      July 20, 2011 at 10:16 pm |
  8. SoundOfForest

    Jesus came to earth to atone the sin of mankind, not just for teaching, though His teaching is indeed incomparable. The persecution-soaked Chinese Christians know what life means.

    July 18, 2011 at 11:29 pm |
  9. prophet

    you need ask a simple question, why did Yeshua Our Saviour teach the everday people directly, because He knew that if He taught It to the clergy first they would distort His Teachings to suit themselves and even though that was then human nature is the same, so same play different actors.

    July 18, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
  10. Frogist

    So in China some bishops were ordained, but without the approval of the Catholic Church. Well doesn't that mean that they are not actually Catholic bishops? If the Vatican disputes their validity then that is their right as head of the Catholic Church. Certainly the Church is behind the times on a number of things including women priests, and contraception. But declaring who is or isn't a leader of their church is absolutely their call. China cannot dispute that. And then turning around and saying it is the Vatican who is restricting religious freedom in China is simply ludicrous. If there was religious freedom then there would be no issue with bringing in Catholic priests and bishops from Rome to service the churches within China. The Chinese gov't cannot have it both ways. Either they accept freedom of religion for even those who have declared their allegiance to western forces outside of the country or realise China are the ones prohibiting the free practice of religion through the fear that their people want to respond to those same outside forces. China must learn a hard lesson here: freedom of religion (freedom of any kind) means people will choose things you don't necessarily agree with. And then you must face the consequences.
    I think the Church must also realise that they have followers within China that want a hierarchy. They are seeking structure. If the Church truly cares about the souls of those people, they need to find a way to service what, according to the Church, is a dire need.
    Sadly, the real losers in this fight are the ones who want to worship as Catholics but are prohibited from doing so. They are going to have to make some concessions too. And either fight for their people to be recognised by the Church, or fight for their Church to be recognized by China.
    As for China's feelings being hurt by the Dalai Lama meeting with our President. Boo ef-fing Hoo! Get over yourself.

    July 18, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • HappyModerat

      Whole heartedly agreed!

      I also want to say though that I do not envy the bishop who was excommunicated. Excommunication is a big deal to believers. It's just about equal to damnation. That poor guy had to choose between staying true to his Church and suffering or being a false Bishop in the eyes of his Church but at least being able to guide Chinese faithful. That's a tough decision to make.

      July 20, 2011 at 10:20 pm |
  11. AvdBerg

    For a better understanding of the early and current history of the Catholic Church and learn about the foundation it was built on we invite you to read the articles The Mystery Babylon and Popes and the Princes of this world on our website. You can locate it by entering “a world deceived” on Google. It is easy to find as it has been the number one listing for the last five years. Today there are more than 10 million listings. All of the other pages and articles on our website explain how this whole world has been deceived as confirmed in Revelation 12:9 and the Bible is true. It is the discerner of every thought and the intent of the heart (Hebrews 5:12).

    July 18, 2011 at 7:11 am |
    • Nonimus

      From the Into page of the mentioned website:
      "The Bible is unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever, the Word of God. In fact it is God and to change any part of it, through interpretation or discernment, would be to change the image of God."
      How is this not an interpretation of that which should not be interpreted, e.g. "in fact it is God..."?

      July 18, 2011 at 10:34 am |
    • AvdBerg

      All of our writings are confirmed with Scriptural References. If you disagree with any of our writings and you are able to confirm it with the Word of God, please do write us and we will remove the whole article from our website. In twenty six years of service we have neve had to remove anything. People have been unable to challenge us as it is based on the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive (John 14:17).

      July 18, 2011 at 11:13 am |
    • Nonimus

      What is your citation for the claim that every bit of your version of the Bible is "the Word of God?"

      July 18, 2011 at 11:36 am |
    • gerald

      The vatican is not on the 7 hills. Rome is. The vatican is accross the river from Rome. Sorry, doesn't match. Lots of handwaving on the cardinals as well. The whole mystery babylon thing got going with Woodruff. He eventually refuted his own book and pulled it from store shelves as being full of false logic and red herrings. Your bold claim that noone has ever made you change your website is like the Mormons who have not changed the Joseph Smith story and claims that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Men dig their heals in at whatever they believe is true. Pride.

      July 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
    • AvdBerg

      The gospel we preach is not after man. For we neither received it of man, neither were we taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11,12). As he revealed Himself to us, He confirmed everything to us by His Word. Every Word is true, you are just not able to understand it as the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God as they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:15). Our website explains in detail what you must do to be reunited with God and to be able to understand His Word for it is God (John 1:1). It is all up to you and you have been given a free will to make that choice.

      July 18, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • .


      July 18, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Nonimus

      I'm confused, wasn't Gal. 1:11,12 just Paul trying to gain the authority of the apostles – which normally he wouldn't have because he never met Jesus, until after he died, supposedly – which would go to supporting a claim of not needing the Bible at all, right.

      Additionaly, just before the 1 Cor. 2:15 reference, doesn't it say "12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]"
      Isn't the Bible written in 'world-taught' words?

      July 18, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Oh, and isn't Romans 1:20 pretty much self-negating?
      "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
      If the his divine nature is clearly seen and understood from what has been made, i.e. the universe itself, what then is the use of the Bible; the very thing that provides the statement... unless that statement wasn't meant to be compiled into a collection of books, i.e. the Bible.

      Which brings me back to the point of, what is your reference that your version of the Bible is the God's word?

      July 18, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • AvdBerg

      The Bible is correct, you are just not able to understand it and in fact you cannot understand as it is spiritually discerned, meaning: to be able to discern between darkness and light. You read the Bible in your natural state and read it like a story book. Religion will do that to you. The Bible is not a story book. What stands between the natural body and the spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:44) is repentance meaning to turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan (whose spirit you are of ) unto God (Acts 26:18).

      July 18, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • Nonimus

      So it comes back to that does it?
      If one can't understand then they must not be "of God." In order to understand one must believe, but in order to believe one must first understand what to believe.

      Let me try that again...
      If you don't believe, just read the Bible. If you don't understand the Bible, it's because you don't believe.

      July 18, 2011 at 3:36 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Oh, sorry forgot the original question.

      So what you are saying is that "The Bible is unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever, the Word of God," (http://www.aworlddeceived.ca/) because you believe the Bible says so. When challenged on what the Bible says, you revert to, "The Bible is correct, you are just not able to understand it...", essentially because I don't believe.
      Which boils down to 'The Bible is God's word and is correct because that is what we believe, but belief determines what one understands it to say.' (my interpretation, obviously)

      July 18, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
    • RobertE

      If you are so familiar with the Bible. Why don't you use God's name, Jehovah?
      Psalms 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
      You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
      Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.
      The Lord's Prayer “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."

      July 18, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • AvdBerg

      When God came into this world to set an exmaple for mankind to follow his Name was Jesus Christ. We invite you to read the article The House of Yahweh on our website to show you that salvation is not in a certain Name. You can just call him father. For a better understanding who your father is and why you cannot hear us please read John 8:43-45 and 1 John 4:6.

      July 18, 2011 at 7:24 pm |
    • AvdBerg

      We have studied the authenticity of the Bible for twenty six years and we can tell you unequivocally that the Bible is the Word of God (Authorized King James Bible) as was reaveled to us by Him (John 14:26). Sorry it took us a while to get back to you. It woud be easier to communicate via the Contact page on our website if you are comfortable communicating that way.

      July 18, 2011 at 7:32 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "We have studied the authenticity of the Bible for twenty six years and we can tell you unequivocally that the Bible is the Word of God (Authorized King James Bible) as was reaveled to us by Him (John 14:26)."

      Either you, I'm assuming 'we' is the group behind the book/website, studied the authenticity of the Bible and can back up it's veracity with solid evidence or it's authenticity was revealed by some spirit (re: John 14:26) and we, your audience, are supposed to just believe you. If you claim the former, then please present the evidence. If you claim the latter, why the pretense of studying for 26 years; whether true or not, we should just believe you because the Holy Spirit says so, right? Either the Bible is self-evident and can be shown to be so, or it's truth must be revealed, in which case there is no point even discussing it until the Holy Spirit has visited the reader.

      By the way, if you are going any further with this discussion, you will also need to show why the the KJV is authentic version, as opposed to all the other versions.

      July 19, 2011 at 11:21 am |
    • RobertE

      AvdBerg you are very good at sending people to your website (written by men). However, you do not use the Bible to respond to any of the remarks you receive. I can see why so many people question your beliefs and that the bible is not interpreted correctly. Your response to my question about God's name, Jehovah was another misquote of a scripture.
      In John 8:42-45 it says: "Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. 43 Why is it YOU do not know what I am speaking? Because YOU cannot listen to my word. 44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me."
      Jesus said I have sent by my Father, no where in the Bible does Jesus claim he is Almighty God. He always references his father that sent him.
      You need a Bible 101 class, let me know I can teach and I won't refer you to some website!

      July 19, 2011 at 5:15 pm |
  12. libbydream

    IN my city there is also a church, I have been inside once during Christmas EVE with a friend for fun and curiosity...In my city most of the people who go to church on Sunday are old people ...they do not even really finish reading the whole book of Bible....when my grandma used to be still fit ,she went to a very small church in our small downtown of the county every weekend.....She would always tell me ,that Jesus asked people to be kind-hearted and honest...As a kid ,I think it is quite good,because all human beings are taught to be merciful in all different culture ....and the reason my Grandma went to church is because it is nice to have some old friends gather together ,talk about Jesus and gossip about their own life....and my friend 's grandma went to church also for this kind of reasons......

    July 18, 2011 at 1:51 am |
    • zhongming

      So your grandma attends the government's "patriotic Church", good for her. But I am not sure if you know this: most Chinese Christians worship in their family churches, and the members belonging to the family churches are at least 4 times more than the ones belonging to the government churches. Over the past year, especially after the middle east revolution early this year, the communist regime has heavily cracked down on the family churches. Many are harassed, detained and even toutured. Just for your information. Tell your grandma always obey the words of the party.

      July 18, 2011 at 3:59 am |
  13. L Pedro

    Made in China... quality and performance..You judge.

    July 18, 2011 at 12:54 am |
  14. L Pedro

    Made in China...quallity and performance. You judge...

    July 18, 2011 at 12:41 am |
  15. RightTurnClyde

    Churches in general are failing and the RC church in particular. They are too big, too unmovable, unable to hear and bogged in their own mire. They have “lawed” themselves into archaic policies and have entirely lost Jesus and His teachings. Same for the Episcopals, Lutherans, Presbytrians. The Mennonite preach on this BLOG was enough to obliterate that church. Mormons have a strange-o book and even stranger anel-story. Fundamentalists worship a book. Churches are failing. They are not even a social club any more (school, babysitting, etc.)

    July 18, 2011 at 12:40 am |
  16. Big Boy

    Chinese officials are very funny, they are getting involved in religion, in media, in family affairs, in all sorts of things and I ask the Chinese government will they issue legislation on how many times couples can have intercourse and when ???

    July 18, 2011 at 12:16 am |
    • Canchi

      Big Boy, you make the Chinese government sound like the Catholic Church based in Rome.

      July 18, 2011 at 12:34 am |
    • Canchi

      One difference though, at least the Chinese government gives out condoms for free

      July 18, 2011 at 12:49 am |
  17. SoundFromForest

    Catholics should obey the Pope unless he orders biblically wrong thing. All Catholics should read the Bible.

    July 17, 2011 at 11:59 pm |
  18. Reality

    Something all Chinese Christians should read:

    Saving Christians from the Resurrection Con:

    From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

    Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
    Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

    "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

    Of course, we all know that angels are really mythical "pretty wingie talking thingies".

    With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

    o An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
    o p.4
    o "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."
    o p.168. by Ted Peters:
    Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

    o So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.( 因此是bones"的地方? 根据Crossan'教授; 在他的许多书的s分析,耶稣的身体在许多坟墓将结束迫害,吃由豺狗,盖用石灰在一个浅坟墓,或者在堆石头之下。)

    July 17, 2011 at 11:50 pm |
  19. zhongming

    The core of the problem is the increasing fear of the communist regime for organized resistances to their brutal rules. Not just catholic churches, these days, the communist regime will crush any organized groups over whitch it has no complete control. If not for possible dire remifications internationally, the regime would probably have already banned Christian churches. What is happening in the middle east this year has scared the communist regime ####less. To keep their absolute autocratic political power over the country, the regime will do anything and everything.

    July 17, 2011 at 11:12 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      I am not too caught up upon the Signs of Catholicism or even Christianity within the Realm of China. I do know that China was once visited by Marco Polo whereupon the Old EU received Gunpowder and you know what happened next don't you? China used gunpowder in the Days Marco Polo for entertainment purposes but the Old EU turned Gunpowder into being Guns and Cannons. I also know that China is the Oldest of Countires and its' age is timeless when compared to Isreal or the EU or any other Nation we know of. I also know they had Samurai warriors who practiced in the Martial Arts long before any other nation or country. Their Downfall came when they were indentured by EU Countries through the Opium Trade and the Boxer Rebellion put China back into the Stone Age. I do also know that their is a Chinese TV Program on the Dish Netwrok.

      July 17, 2011 at 11:30 pm |
    • zhongming

      Richard S Kaiser:I don't understand what is your point. What I am trying to explain is that the heated up fights between the Vatican and the Chinese government is a small battle within a much larger war field. It is not about Christianity; it is about the safety of the communist regime.

      July 17, 2011 at 11:43 pm |
    • zhongming

      China's history is the bloodiest in the world, period. Every change of the dynasties results the elimination of as much as 50% of the population. And there is real danger that history may repeat itself for the current communist dynasty.

      July 17, 2011 at 11:49 pm |
    • Canchi

      Zhongming "China's history is the bloodiest in the world, period. Every change of the dynasties results the elimination of as much as 50% of the population." Where's your source? and what is your point?

      July 17, 2011 at 11:56 pm |
    • zhongming

      My source is that I am a Chinese, and a Chinese who is interested in history. Is that enough? At least 40million unnatureral death under the communist rule of the past 60 years. Do you dispute that too?

      My point is a direct answer to Kaiser, if I understand him correctly.

      July 18, 2011 at 12:03 am |
    • Canchi

      Zhongming, If you are interested in history, perhaps you should also be aware of the genocide in the Americas, Australia, and the bloody trails of the West in Africa, and the bloody trails on the Catholic church itself. I still don't know where your source is that every change of dynasty in China results in the elimination of at least 50% of its population? And what is you point there? If according to your source, only 40 million Chinese died of unnatural causes in the 60 years of Chinese Communist rule, then it's certainly not 50% of the population over those 60 years, is it?

      July 18, 2011 at 12:22 am |
    • zhongming

      It looks like 50% elimination is a grave understatement. Before the ned of Han dynasty(东汉), China's population was 56.4 million. When the next dynasty, Jin(晋), took over China thru years of civil wars, China's population reduced to 16 million, a whopping 70% elimination. Even today, the communist text book still brags about their glory victory of killing 8 million government troops during the last civil war. These are just 2 examples right off my head. Need more?

      July 18, 2011 at 12:39 am |
    • Canchi

      Zhongming, I am amazed at your accuracy, perhaps your forebears were imperial census takers. So you have one dynasty change that went from 46.6 million to 16 million, again, where's that source? And how did they die, wars, famines, sickness, carcer? And again, what is your point, about change of Chinese dynasties? That it's better not to change dynasties, or what? You really lost me. And 8 million KMT troops were killed in the civil war! Wow, I have yet to hear that one, normally the wounded to kill ratio is in high multiples, so shall we say 5 times, so the KMT had an army of at least 46 million (6×8 million), not counting the ones who survived. Not only you flunk Chinese history, you flunk math and essay, and logic. Wait, they don't have logic in Chinese high schools.

      July 18, 2011 at 1:11 am |
    • libbydream

      What do you want to say????According to your point,,chinese people have been always ruthless ,bloody people ...and then what ?First your view about each new dynasty always comes with elimination of half population is certainly not correct.....Secondly through out all the ancient western history and eastern history,the wars are always there....it is human nature ,many wars are caused by human being 's greed,only a few is really for justice....
      Thirdly ,as a Chinese ,I am really feeling ashamed for you ,,,,...we don't have to love our government ,but as a chinese ,we should love our culture and chinese people and also wish peace for the whole world....According to your view, it seems to be chinese people should totally be eliminated from this earth,and then there will be no more blood-shedding?????

      July 18, 2011 at 1:30 am |
    • Canchi

      libbydream, what zhongming is trying to say is that he ain't got a clue what in #$@^ he's talking about, and that he's bored as hell because of summer break

      July 18, 2011 at 1:43 am |
    • Canchi

      And zhongming, one other point, not trying to make you feel stupid, just an advice to use your brains before you speak. By your rationale, 40 million Chinese died of unnatural deaths during their 60 year rule. China today has 1.3 billion, and if we take a median, say 800 million, that's an unnatural fatality of 5% these 60 years. Since you claim every dynastic change in China causes at least 50%, and even 70% of the demise of the population in your unauthorized example, that makes the Chinese communists look like saints, don't you think?

      July 18, 2011 at 2:03 am |
    • Um...

      "Zhongming, If you are interested in history, perhaps you should also be aware of the genocide in the Americas, Australia, and the bloody trails of the West in Africa, and the bloody trails on the Catholic church itself."

      Canchi, are you really going to try and rationalize the deaths of thousands of Chinese using other historical massacres? Really?

      July 18, 2011 at 2:28 am |
    • Canchi

      Um...I am not trying to rationalize anything. I am just responding to whatever "facts and figures" and whatever point he is making. He made some accusations that "Chinese" is a historically bloody race, not specifically the communists. He used figures and "facts" that are totally unsubstantiated and rudderless. Just to counter his probable nebulous point that "Chinese are inherently bad" (and he even claims to be Chinese), I am just debunking his theory and to remind him, if he ever was even aware of it in the first place, that every people has some blemish somewhere. You want to use absolute numbers as a guage for their badness, there are far worse. You want to use %, there are far worse. You want to use qualitative measurements and rankings, there are far wrose. China is what it is, is where it is through a process, and should not be judged as a snapshot (even his snapshot is misplaced). He is totally clueless what he is trying to say.

      July 18, 2011 at 2:57 am |
    • zhongming

      Canchi: do a search on Google, if that isn't too much a strain on your intelligence, with the phase "三国时期人口下降", then read the 23,9000 results. I assume you are a Chinese and possibly paid bvy the propaganda department of the communist party, for spinning on western websites. A member of the so called the so called "5 cents" army. If you are a Chinese, then take a Chinese name. What the %$#% does "Canchi" mean? "惨痴“?

      My post regarding China's bloody history is a direct answer to the arguments of Mr. Richard S Kaiser, who defened the current communist regime by depicting Chinese as such a gentle and peace loving poeple, which is historically untrue, and a preposterous argument when applying to the current regime.

      As for annihilating 8 million government troops, and bragging it as glorious victories of the communist during the civil war, go ask any Chinese, we all learned it in school.

      July 18, 2011 at 3:35 am |
    • zhongming

      Um...: I am sure you are a Chinese, because you are talking in the most typical way, with duplicitous logic, of a deeply brain-washed person by the communist lies. True or false, what you said about the west is totally irrelevant here. This thread is about the latest battle between the Vantican and the Chinese government. Why change subject?

      All my arguments here are merely trying to point out that the battle has liitle too do with the catholic, or even Christinity practice in China, it has everything to do with the safety of the dictatorship of the communist regime. That's all.

      July 18, 2011 at 3:47 am |
    • zhongming

      libbydream: What I said is "as much as" 50%, and Canchi twisted my phrase to be " at lest" 50%. It is there, go read it.

      We are Chinese, and we hope China a bright future. But denying historical reality is hardly the way to achieve it. There are many weaknesses in Chinese culture, the lack of the sense for justice being the most disturbing one, the lack of the senses for freedom, equality, and universal love being some of the others, that we must surmounting by first honestly admitting. Blind nationalism is exactly the goal that the communist regime try to rig into our mind to keep us in darkness.

      You are ashamed of me? fine, I don't care. But I do feel, that chances are, down the road, that you are the one who is likely to change. China is not going to be forever in darkness, and Chinese are going to embrace the universal value for humanity, which is not a strong point in Chinese culture, to put it mildly.

      July 18, 2011 at 4:44 am |
    • William

      Well said, Zhongming.

      The Beijing regime is out of touch with the Chinese people and is increasingly fearful as repressive regimes are toppled elsewhere. Controlling everyone's daily lives to ensure complete dependence and imprisoning or murdering those who dare speak out is the ONLY way they will stay in power.

      Since 1949, the regime has murdered anywhere between 49-78 MILLION people. Source: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

      July 18, 2011 at 9:50 am |
    • mingzhong

      Since my post under canchi was screened and blocked, I have to come under the radar with another alias. I don’t know why it was blocked since there was nothing inflammatory there. Oh, well, maybe the moderator is a 1 center from China. Hope this one comes thru. Coming back to Zhongming. I suppose you can only resort to branding someone who disagrees with you as a 5 center when your logic fails. You stated “China’s history is the bloodiest in the world, period.” That is an extreme statement covering a lot of ground. It is also a comparative statement with the world, which I responded with non-Chinese misdeeds to debunk your opinion stated as a universal fact. Since the dawn of man, numerous atrocities and wars take place this world, both Chinese and non-Chinese. What makes you think that Chinese history is bloodier than say, European history in the last several millennium – Hellenic wars, Punic Wars, Roman Wars, Alexandar, Tamerlane, Mid-east wars, African wars, the genocide of the Americas, Australia, Black Slavery. So how much worse is Chinese history compared to the Thirty Years war and the holocaust, WWI, WWII? So how do the Germans fare on your bloody scale? They score a 7, 10 being the Chinese? 7.5 for the genocide of the Americas? You prove your statement. You are the one who brought in events that happened zillions of years ago, that are irrelevant to what’s happening today. Don’t blame me. And Richard Kaiser never defended the Communist government in China either. Prove your statement. By the way, Zhongming means blackhole in Chinese.

      July 18, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
    • Peter

      Zhongming, there not many regime changes in the ancient past that are bloodess in the entire wood. You also cannot include other factors during dynasty changes that are not military related into your figures by blatantly label Chinese are bloody race of people that kills off 50% of their population every dynasty changes. This is totally irresponsible and manipulative toward casual readers about Chinese history. Don't insult others who read Chinese history as well by general categorizing a race with simple genearal statistics without more detail breakdowns.

      July 18, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
    • mingzhong

      Peter, right on!

      July 18, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    • zhongming

      mingzhong: zhongming is my real name. The way you create your handle by twitsting my name is nothing but disgusting. Do you have a Chinese name? Yes? Then use it. You coward!

      peter: how could you possible come to the understanding that my original statement "China's history is the bloodiest in the world, period. Every change of the dynasties results the elimination of as much as 50% of the population." is meant to be "Chinese are bloody race of people that kills off 50% of their population every dynasty changes"? You have trouble to comprehand English sentences, or you are up to something else?

      I did a little research last night. Now I know, that the Chinese history is event more bloody than I thought when I started this thread 24 hours ago. THERE IS NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT CAN EVEN COME CLOSE, especially when killings of its own kind is concerned. Besides, bloody history also includs things like "诛灭九族“,”凌迟处死“, to name a few.

      Are there possitive sides with the Chinese culture? Of course, a lot. But we cannot possible move forward to join the world community in the 21st century if we don't admit the negatives. And they are bad, some very bad. The bad parts of our culture are the very reasons that we continue to tolarate this disgusting communist regime, and ignore the incresible social injutice.

      I don't intend to continue this conversation any longer, because this is a religion site; and we already had talked too much politics which should be here in the first place.

      July 19, 2011 at 1:46 am |
    • mingzhong

      OK, so you have an unusual name. You seem to be rather obsessed with all this S & M stuff. I suggest some counselling would help.

      July 19, 2011 at 10:29 am |
    • Nonimus

      I find this thread fascinating; both refreshing and depressing.

      Refreshing to hear from other parts of the world rather than the predominately myopic US, myself included. Yet, depressing to see that the same belligerence and antagonism is present in other cultures, in ways, more ancient than any I've known personally.

      And, to top it off I've learned some things, e.g. 1, 5, 50 cent party/gang.

      July 19, 2011 at 11:46 am |
  20. get off my throne

    It's a critical question who exactly put the man up for ordination. Was it higher ups within the Chinese Catholic Church? Then they're violating the protocols of the church and should themselves be excommunicated. Or was it the Chinese government who dictated to the church who should be ordained? That would be meddling from outside the church, which would itself be a violation of religious liberty in China.

    Is the Chinese Catholic Church run by the government? Then it's not a church. Any way you look at it, it seems the Chinese Catholic Church as a whole isn't a true part of the Roman Catholic Church. But the Vatican, though it knows that, can't bring itself to be denied the 1.3 billion customers in China. And the Chinese government has no interest in ceding any power to God.

    July 17, 2011 at 10:57 pm |
    • zhongming

      It is really not just the catholic churches; the regime now is crackdowning on everything that is not total under its control.

      July 17, 2011 at 11:18 pm |
    • Kazigo

      if the pope didnot approve the ordination, then one that proved and motivated they had should be investigated deeply by the Roman Catholic church.

      July 18, 2011 at 6:43 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.