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July 21st, 2011
03:59 PM ET
Pew Survey: Western, Muslim tensions persist, but there's a tiny thawBy Joe Sterling, CNN Westerners and Muslims continue to harbor negative attitudes toward each other, but there's a glimmer of change in Western attitudes, a new survey found. The idea that relations are bad has become "somewhat less common" over the past five years in the United States, Britain, France, Germany and Russia, according to the survey, called "Muslim-Western Tensions Persist," produced by the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project. Still, "Muslim and Western publics continue to see relations between them as generally bad, with both sides holding negative stereotypes of the other," says the center's report on the survey released Thursday. Many Westerners view Muslims "as fanatical and violent" and few regard Muslims as "tolerant or respectful of women," the report says. Muslims in the Middle East and Asia generally see Westerners as "selfish, immoral and greedy - as well as violent and fanatical." "However, the latest Pew Global Attitudes survey finds somewhat of a thaw in the U.S. and Europe compared with five years ago," the report says. "A greater percentage of Western publics now see relations between themselves and Muslims as generally good compared with 2006. "In contrast, Muslims in predominantly Muslim nations are as inclined to say relations are generally bad as they were five years ago. And, as in the past, Muslims express more unfavorable opinions about Christians than Americans or Europeans express about Muslims," the report says. "For the most part, Muslims and Westerners finger point about the causes of problems in their relations, and about which side holds the high ground on key issues. Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere who say relations with the West are bad overwhelmingly blame the West. However, while Americans and Europeans tend to blame Muslims for bad relations, significant numbers believe Westerners are responsible." The survey, conducted March 21 to May 15 in a dozen countries and the Palestinian territories, updates a number of trend questions from a 2006 Pew Global Attitudes poll exploring how Muslim and Western publics view each other. There are concerns in both cultures about "Islamic extremism." "Majorities in the U.S., Israel, and across Europe are concerned about Islamic extremism in their countries. Meanwhile, most Muslims in the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan, and Turkey also express this view," the survey found. Many Muslims blame Western policies for a "lack of prosperity" in their countries but also blame corrupt governments there, the report says. "Perhaps reflecting the Arab Spring, in several Muslim and Western nations, people are more likely than they were five years ago to say the lack of prosperity stems from a lack of democracy, it says. There is a "note of agreement" between Muslims and Westerners that Muslim countries should be "more prosperous." "Muslim publics have an aggrieved view of the West - they blame Western policies for their own lack of prosperity," the report says. "Across the Muslim publics surveyed, a median of 53% say U.S. and Western policies are one of the top two reasons why Muslim nations are not wealthier. In contrast, few Americans or Western Europeans think the economic challenges facing Muslim countries are a result of Western policies." The report also highlights other illuminating points: - Muslims remain skeptical toward the belief that Arabs conducted the 9/11 attacks. There is no Muslim public in which even 30% accept what is regarded in the United States and other Western nations as an undisputed fact. – Muslims "identify" with their religion rather than their nationality. Christians in Europe identify with their nationality, but "American Christians are split." - "Ratings for Jews are uniformly low" in predominantly Muslim nations, but "solid majorities" in the Western nations "have a favorable opinion" of Jewish people. "Less than 10% of Muslims in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, the Palestinian territories, Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia express a favorable view of Jews." - Among Israel's minority Muslim community, "48% express a positive opinion of Jews, while 49% offer a negative opinion. In contrast, only 9% of Israeli Jews have a positive view of Muslims. Christians receive somewhat higher ratings among Israeli Muslims (67% favorable) than among Israeli Jews (51%)." - A majority of people in four of the six mostly Christian nations surveyed say they have a positive opinion of Muslims. They are the United States, Britain, France and Russia. "The exceptions are Germany (45% favorable) and Spain (37%), although views toward Muslims have improved in both countries since 2006." - "In Lebanon, which has a large Christian population, nearly all Muslims (96%) express a positive view of Christians. Narrow majorities of Jordanian (57%) and Indonesian (52%) Muslims also give Christians a favorable rating, while in Egypt - which has recently experienced violence between elements of its Muslim and Christian communities - views are divided (48% favorable; 47% unfavorable). Meanwhile, very few Muslims in Pakistan (16%) or Turkey (6%) have a positive opinion of Christians." - While Muslim assessments of relationships tend to be "at least as negative as they were five years ago," Indonesia is an exception. Fewer Indonesians say Muslim-Western relations are negative. - Lebanese Muslims are "consistently the least likely to assign negative characteristics to Westerns." - In Jordan, concerns have dropped significantly over Islamic extremism in the past five years. - There is a "widespread perception" that Muslims living in the West don't want to assimilate. People without college degrees are "more likely" than those who have them "to believe that Muslims want to remain distinct from the broader society."
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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David Johnson: Both the theists and the Atheists have their sets of beliefs they're using to explain the world around them. The vast majority f us (including YOU, I suppose) agree that the world exist and that the world had a beginning. This means that the world we refer to as the Universe was either CREATED by someone having the power and technology to create a Universe or, alternatively, that the Universe came into existence ALL BY ITSELF from nothing. The theists believe in the first option. The Atheists in the latter. It's up to each and every one of us to decide which one of these two options is more plausible. I personally think that if something was NOT made by us, humans, it does not necessarily mean that it came into existence all by itself.
You would be surprised that whatever the atheists and theists may believe in have more in common and connection in them than what may initially seem. The science and knowledge world are discovering more and more inter-correlations between religious believes and scientific proofs, and more and more of what we initially believed as scientific facts are being debunked and rethought as new revelations emerge. The difference is religion comes with its set of rules to abide, whereas science do not. But one should ponder upon the significance of these revelations and not think too highly of ourselves as human beings for we have yet to reach the level of understanding the ultimate truth, and not dismiss religion so easily.
My apologies, my post was actually meant to be directed @David Johnson
You have to factor in the culture side of things as well. Muslims in a multi-culture society tends to be more tolerant of other religions as opposed to those in backwards or single culture society. And if you put politics into the mix as well, it gets even messier. But it's inevitable that when something occur often and widely enough it leads to stereotyping and consensus about whichever is the one common denominator, in this case, the religion of Islam. Living in multi-cultural, multi religious Malaysia, I do not view Muslims in my country negatively, as they don't non-Muslims as well. But we share the view that the Muslims in middle-eastern countries are generally having a more backward mentality and a more radical interpretation of Islam. Multiculturalism can definitely ease tensions between religious and cultural differences and governing bodies must play a role in actively promoting harmony, not hatred.
That may be truth but most Islamic countries eliminate their minorities by foricible conversion and killing. Just check the minority population of most Islamic countries – its non existent. In Pakistan the minority population has decreased from 25% to 3% today in just 50 years since its birth. Islam is not a tolerant religion.
Vivek,
Please look at your statistics again. Most of the countries do not practice forcible conversions. Some people did in the past, though not as many as some like to think. The reduction of minorities generally has more to do with people immigrating to other countries. But, there are still approximately 10-22 million Christians in several Middle Eastern countries, plus, Baha'i, Zoroastrians, Jews, and even Muslim minorities (groups like the Druze etc.) that live in several. Their numbers may not be high, but they are there and not being forced to convert.
@ Hana
Help us. Ouch – that hurts. Help us. Fire. Run. Swords. I'm bleeding. Police? Where?
We're dying here, people.
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/egypt/15219
Screw it. We left Egypt. Guess our numbers there are down a bit now. It just depends on how you count "reductions in minorities."
Humph. Ain't statistics great?
Egyptian Coptic and Canadian Coptic.
Where was my statement wrong? I was arguing against the post above me that claimed forced conversion. I have never denied horrible atrocities in the current conflicts or persecutions in the past. I was ONLY arguing against the forced conversion claim. And I am not just talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church (though admittedly it is the largest Christian community in the Middle East according to numbers), but also the Chaldeans in Iraq that have fled the country, the Syriac Orthodox that have left Syria and Lebanon, etc....
The topic of Christians in the Middle East comes up a lot as one member who posts on here seems to think that the only churches in the Middle East are for foreigners and tourists. So, I have been constantly explaining that there are such strong and deeply rooted communities like the Copts. If I did not specify the abhorrent persecutions in that specific post it was an oversight as I have posted on the topic a lot.
@ Hana
Vivek said " most Islamic countries eliminate their minorities by foricible [sic] conversion and killing."
To which you replied " Please look at your statistics again. Most of the countries do not practice forcible conversions... reduction of minorities generally has more to do with people immigrating to other countries."
This is basically an avoidance of what consit tutes a "forcible conversion." Burning someone's church and threatening (or simply outright killing) their family members could reasonably be considered a pretty "forcible conversion," say, to getting them out of the country. You're soft-pedaling Vivek's point, Hana.
Poor form.
@ BG
No, she did not say forcible (istic)... she said forcible.
Now, I dont like using Wikipedia for quotes, but it is the most concise that I can find right now but the statistics are repeated in many places.
Christians in Iraq:
"Estimates for the numbers of Christians suggest a decline from 8–10% in the mid-20th century to 5% at the turn of the century, to 3% in 2008. About 600,000 Iraqi Christians have fled to Syria, Jordan or other countries or relocated to Iraqi Kurdistan. There are also small populations of Mandaeans, Shabaks, and Yezidis. The Iraqi Jewish community, numbering around 150,000 in 1941, almost entirely left the country."
Similar statements are made in the statistics of other countries in the region.
I have and continue to openly admit that there is persecution. There are even major tensions currently in Egypt (well, really through out Mubarak reign and even more so after).
Forcible conversion is truly giving a person NO other choice. Convert or die. The obvious example is the practice of the Ottoman Turks in forcing young children to slavery and then forcing them to convert to become members of the Jannisary Corp or the Mamluk army. Burning down a church in anger, hatred, revenge, or whatever is not about forcing the people to convert, it is about taking something out on them. It is a horrible act, it is intimidation, it is morally reprehensible. But, it is not telling a person they must convert or die. And trying to chase them out of the country is not forcible conversion either as the purpose is not to convert, but to drive away.
I am only arguing over the use of terminology. Not arguing that disgusting acts of religious hatred dont happen. There is a fricken reason that so many people tried to leave these countries.... because of the persecution.
" The obvious example is the practice of the Ottoman Turks..."
Spoken like a true Muslim. There are far more obvious examples in much more recent history. But ... never mind that.
" There is a fricken reason that so many people tried to leave these countries.... because of the persecution."
Then why do they insist on bringing their oppressive practices to their 'new countries?' FGM, misogyny, sharia, public disobedience, arson... the list is endless. No, Hana. Immigrants are not trying to escape persecution, they're trying to propagate it.
There's an old saying in America – I'm sure you've heard it by now.
Don't píss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
I think the real problem here is, people think that it is the fault of the religion itself when certain Islamic parties or countries do abhorrent things like persecuting Christians and Jews but if you really look at it, it is exactly that – CERTAIN countries that do, not ALL. When the Christian Crusaders were persecuting non Christians back in the middle ages, would any Christians today acknowledge those acts of persecution is indeed a Christian thing to do? Like I said, a lot of other factors play in, but the fault does not lie in the religion itself. This lumping of all incidents together and blaming a common denominator is just another form of stereotyping.
Either that, or.. it really is their religion. Take the beer goggles off, Non.
http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/everything-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html
@BG
I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are indeed atrocities of the worst kind being committed by Muslims, but from where I am and my daily living among Muslims I have not seen such acts being carried out by them here and they too are aghast by such acts being done by Muslims in other parts of the world to which they say is absolutely un-Islamic at all according to how they practise theirs. Now I do not know whether peace-loving Muslims are a minority or perhaps the culture here shaped them to be non-violent. If that is the case I might count myself lucky not to be bombed to shreds, being a non Muslim living among Muslims in a Muslim majority country, or I can conclude that culture,politics and a myriad of other factors play a role just not solely the religion itself. I do not believe in religion myself, it's just my principle, but I do not condemn any religion. I've seen them done good things, every now and then.
you all are crazy. I wait for the day when u all will kill each other and maybe then will be peace. Religion killed and will kill many ppl, and the worst is that ppl like me who understand that u ppl with religion is jusr dump nut crazy make us normal ppl see all that killing! Cristians , muslims and all other crazys have no brain. U should start think more about real thinks then man with beard on a cloud flouding around! And i was thinking if god are real how did he look like when there was no humans and was dinosours and why did he didn save them? And leave that crap from bible or caran for your self and stop bring it to the puplic. Humman rase face biger problems than that.
I dont think your a true atheist. Your style of writing indicates someone trying to descredit atheists as idiiots. However, in general who tend to be better educated than those who hold to faith. The mistakes are so numerous they weaken your points.
Of The 22 World Conflicts Around The World, 21 are Muslim
We cant argue with the facts. I think its time the moderate muslim voices if there are any, start acting before its too late.
Here is the list:
1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & Osama bin Laden headed a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.
2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims
3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians
4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims
5. East Timor Christians & Muslims
6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims
7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims
8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims
9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
11. Middle East Jews, Muslims
12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims
13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims
14. Philippines Christians & Muslims
15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics, Muslims
17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils, Muslims
Additional conflicts
19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims
20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas)
21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict
I agree with Methusalem. All over the world muslims try to stir up violence or want more land, feel ill treated. It seems to me as an evil religion and bad way of life.
well said.
"Aid ban still in place in Somalia, Islamist militants say"
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/22/somalia.aid.ban/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
And the Muslims on this blog do continue singing their abrakadabra, instead of helping their poor brothers and sisters.
Somalia is 100% Muslim, Afghanistan ist 100% Muslim. Now, can you what's going on? Who is in charge of these lands? Lucifer their master himself.
Where do you get your information from? There are a great many other conflicts currently going on that have nothing to do with Muslims. Plus, many of these on your list are political civil wars or separatist actions that have little to do with religion, though like any political agenda they will use religion to justify it.
just like American military have killed MILLIONS of innocent people in IRAQ, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other countries worldwide. where are you getting this information from?? seems like you are one the the "hatred spreader. Grow up and get to know REAL facts, not from CNN, FOX , or any other HATRED SPREADER networks.
Think who spoiled Somalia should go and fix it....isn't that so "BlackHowk" ?
http://www.aana.com/aboutaana.aspx?id=1095
We tried. Now off you go for your conference with the Somali warlords. I hope they're not too stoned. You might have to stay overnight and talk with them in the morning when they're in a better... umm.. 'frame of mind.'
This is what I call spin. You pick and present only the facts that is bias to how you want the conclusion to appear. However to counter debunk this will not gain anything other than to dwell on this activity which will not provide any solutions to the actual problem at hand. Currently, the image of Islam as a religion is viewed as radical which is of no fault but the Muslims themselves. Instead of defending their religion by just saying that real Islam isn't like what it's accused of, Muslims should proactively take actions. Form an organization comprising of Muslims around the world that would be the first to react and help victims of terrorist acts. Be the first to response to supposed claims by terrorist groups that they're the ones behind such crimes. Support anti terrorism movements and and take to task countries that harbour them. If muslims are the ones that tarnish the image of Islam, it will be muslims themselves that have to repair it.
@ Non muslim
Who says it's broken? Seems to be working just fine for them, so they'll leave it alone.
It doesn't need to be "fixed."
Muslim folks, instead of wasting their and our times on the web, they should go down to Somalia to help their hungry "brothers".
Everyone makes Christians help.
OceanLight,
No body "MAKES Christians help". People ask for help from other people. If they happen to be Christians, great. If they are Atheists, cool. At a time of need, help is help. It is the proper thing to do. Muslims help people, Buddhists help people, Jews help people, Atheists help people. All in different ways and different locations. Christians do not have the monopoly on charity.
I wonder what else you do sitting behind your computer. i wonder what kind of a 2 face p**sy you are. ignorant idiot.
Just ignore the stingy ones because they are not pure Christians am sure they don't go to rest rooms crying over what they dispose off there.
I already do help when I can. What do you do for the world?
o Islam gives women almost no rights and treats them like fodder for the male species as so bluntly noted by Aya-an Hi-rsi Ali in her autobiography, In-fidel.
"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circu-mcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hi-rsi Ali escaped – and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.
some excerpts:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly be-aten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their scre-ams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had cas-tes. The Untou-chable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were unt-ouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were tou-chable: we to-uched them see? but also hor-rifying to think of yourself as un-touchable, des-picable to the human race."
"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were ki-lled by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exa-ggerating."
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Som-alia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feu-dal mind-set based on tr-ibal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypro-cricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".
And just about everything you posted is cultural, not religious. In almost all of those cases there are parts of the Quran and hadith that specifically forbid such things. But, still, like any human within any situation, people will pick and choose and take things out of context to justify their actions. So, do they quote the religion? Yes. Does that mean that the religion teaches it? No, it forbids it, they just ignore that part.
Hana,
So why don't they delete said offensive passages?
Well if that is what you want to see happen... I suppose I could report you to make your little wish come true.
But, I dont just report every post that I see is wrong or misleading. Rather I feel that the better solution for the problem of ignorance is education.
Offensive passages are meant for those who hate what we believe in and is dare to attack us...Islam had to face such as those from date it was established starting from the Pagans of Mecca and carried on since then against every one who dares to raise a sword against our faces...and I think you call that self defense...! Otherwise what is the US doing in Afghanistan or Iraq ? Wasn't that under the excuse of your self defense!?
The nitty-gritty of both sides:
The Judeo/Christian side,
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
“New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
3., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
vs. the Islamic side:
Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite global blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Richard S Kaiser.
Hi again,
What did you write "Lowly" or "Lonely"?
Am Muslim...
Kindly convey my sincere regards to the Dove Church Paster being thankful to him for my being here on cnn religion/faith blogs.
Sorry wrong location...
Imam Rauf, right?
OceanFlight.
Now before I go to Fajer prayers I would like to say am not an American nor residence in America or any western country...am in the Arabian Peninsular so better you check first before you jump to conclusions making a fool of your self..
OceanFlight.
Actually I wish to paste for you the translation of the Quran page shown on the Article photo...only them you will realize where you exactly stand...
OceanFlight.
Actually I wish to paste for you the translation of the Quran page shown on the Article photo...only them you will realize where you exactly stand... Verses 88 to 91
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.html
Hello Muneef,
You say your from the "Arabian Peninsular" ? I am from the American Peninsula called Florida. I am but a lowly christian of a spiritual fundamentalism that would permeate badly among Otherly Christian Fantasists’ Emotions. What Muneef is your Religious Beliefs? I am just curious and want to know.
Be at Peace Muneef
R.S. Kaiser
Muneef, I'm not American or living in US, either. I studied Islam. I love Muslims, no worries. Christians cannot do anything else but to love everyone, pray for everyone, and do good to everyone. Though we personally forgive everyone and never revenge, we fight to defend the fatherland, fight to liberate the oppressed and carry out judicial justice where it is possible. I just wanted to inform you in case you didn't know. Please work to give everyone religious freedom in your country. That's only fair.
Richard S Kaiser.
Hi again friend.
What did you write "Lowly" or "Lonely"? Am sure from your last name you are above that all but just trust in God and your self...
Am a Yemeni/Arabic Muslim...
My God you live among Crocodiles and alligators...they eat people and cry in tears....Just like some Women and most Politicians!
Kindly convey my sincere regards to the Dove Church Paster being thankful to him for my being here on cnn religion/faith blogs.
Don't worry the pleasure is mine.
OceanLight.
You say you are not American nor live in America...but never said where from nor race nor religion..although I feel you are not satisfied where you are and feel being buried alive in some sort of darkness...that you want to get out of but not sure how!?! Is that right? Well guess we all feel that now a days and surely many will feel the same even if at the US or Europe...because this come from within and not because of any thing else other than the world corruption,conflicts and wars, what effect others will eventually effect us all because we all on one planet/ship depending on each other for knowledge,business and trade...
You say some thing about allowing religions..! Guess all expatriates have their own gathering places for worship...but for Muslims of all branches are allowed to have their own mosques to pray at freely..
As well we have Yemenites Jews and am sure they have their own places of worship at their cities and villages...
But as for Christians we do not have historically except maybe before Islam..! But not after...
If you meant to open for missionaries to come and convert Muslims, are you aware of the cost of that!!?
Only will convert and follow those who know nothing about their religion the "Pure Ignorance" for what? Not for the belief in what you are preaching but rather for the money as a temporary resource and maybe for immigration purposes only...
You know that this appeal is not thought of as in love of God and Religion...but rather planting what will insure the division of our lands in the long run to end up fighting like Christians and Muslims in Nigeria...or divide the land just as was with Sudan...and as well which is being tried into dividing Egypt... How you ask Muslims to tolerate whom does not tolerate them in other countries?..any way we do have many missionaries come and do frankly help the needy although no converts were reported or heard of...
I my self was brought up in Aden when was a British Colony and remember being taught at schools where their teachers were Monks and Nuns...during my childhood and behind my residence was a church which was attended by British families and Indian Christians expatriates or residents at that time...!
Why is it that we need number crunchers and just what relavency to the commonality does it incur? Are Politicians delegated to fanaticise the ego's and embellish such numbers with revelry in order to gain some sort of an emotional high? I am truly puzzled. (Smokes another Cigar, Filtered of Course!)
@Muneef, if you write shorter comments and write your own words, I'll read 'em.
Ocean Light.
Are you saying that it was you who made that list of rubbish in my name?
Well those comments I pasted were many comments I exchanged with others about the whole pasted subjects so you will fnd their comments and mine posted...
May I say sorry in advance for my poor English but guess any one bright enough may make and idea of what am talking about from the keywords I used or the links supplied...
Wish sister Hana was here for me to show her that it is not about pasting Quran verses nor about not using my own words...it is more like not wanted to be here or say any word...
Assalam alaykum brother,
Dont let SnowVeil/ForestSound/SoundofForest/OceanLight... whatever the heck her name is worry you.
@Muneef, I knew it was a fake below; I'm talking about your regular practice. But it's okay. @Hana, I had a lot more name. I'm confined in pollution like many and I long to see the creation world as it is. Read Anne Frank?
Hana. Thank you and don't worry about it because after all it is that what offer us to opportunity to write our long thread posts but the main thing it has to become productive and inspiring for others..therefore I really should thank those for the opportunity...
OceanLight.
You totally got me lost first attacking here and there even before knowing what is it all about, then you say it is ok...?
Actually I love what I normally practice but I do not do that with out a reason behind it...and those who get scared or hate it feeling uncomfortable are those who are ill or evil hearted ones, paining them to see/read the truth they were told to believe, obey and follow...
If something bad happens to Muslims in the free world, if ever, Christians must protect their lives as Jesus would do.
Huh?
[2:91] When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"
Once again your comments dont make any sense.
But this is not your first time mentioning some ridiculous claim that nothing bad happens to Muslims in the West. There are hate crimes all over the US against many different people and groups. Muslims are among them.
I'm sorry for my bad English. I mean, true Christians must actively defend Muslims as they did for the Jews under Nazis if Muslims get persecutions in the free countries.
😯
OceanLight,
It is called living in a COMMUNITY. Members of that community are expected to help protect other members of that community and back and forth around the whole group. I dont stop to ask what religion a person is before accepting their help. Nor do I stop to ask what religion a person is before offering help. It is just doing the right thing.
Muslims should blame themselves for the lack of prosperity and try to excel if they want to beat the West, giving girls equal education. Do they learn the history of Asia? I hope so. Copying works, some times, though it does not reduce suicide rate.
You some how state that we are in compet-it-ion with each other rather than being neighbors dependent on each other,.some have the know how & skills,others have finance,others have fuel & gas oils....
Earth is one ship that we are all on board sailing in this universe...and if each of us has a different intentions or directions, surely then the ship will sink with them any time if we do not try to enforce reversal of bad effects to earth environment...it is our actions that count towards the planet earth and towards each other...
First, you should learn some history of the region before making such comments. Second, what suicide rate are you talking about??? Yes, there is suicide in the Middle East, but it is FAR lower in number than in the US, Europe or even most of Asia.
Hana,
You make it sound as if you ahve the statistics to back up what your saying. Could you please provide a source. Also, is your source including suicide bombers in the number of suicides int he middle east? I am currently deployed to Afghanistan and from where I sit there are far more muslims blowing themselves up than Americans killing themselves.
jdgwell83
Honestly, I dont know if the statistics include suicide as an act of war. But, you will notice that the Middle Eastern countries start toward the bottom of the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Actualy we have what the rest of the world has of crime or suicide rates although that depends on the size of each country's population ratio...maybe we have the highest rate of death by car and motorcycle road accidents...then come the shootings and killings which has various explanations and reasons either by being at boarders or urban or central cities...
Suicide is not that high only upon crises or when made to look as suicide.. Although the point you mentioned about human bombs...it is only that what I couldn't understand and have a belief that those used are the result of "Pure Ignorance" or "Drugged brainwashed youth or victims dressed up in explosives forcibly or unknowingly... I find it not being in the right form or "Kill and Be Killed" the right form was face to face by the sword,the spear,crossbow & Arrows...developed into fire guns and so on... But this Human missile I never heard of. Although many did it as a missile but by jet fighters which has developed into cars or motor cycles...by boats or like.. Any way Hollywood movies has taught and fed the "Pure Ignorance" so well that it is nothing impossible today... For Good or Evil each has it's own powers and been in a war with each other ever since Adam was created and Satan Rejected and was rejected..
I think UN should check whether each nation is teaching the world history properly. If there is literacy there, that is. Ignorance will never erase illogical hatred. American secular universities are the worst brainwashing in-sti-tu-tions.
Along with secular European schools. They preach hatred of Christianity and protect perversion. No wonder immigrants come to hate the West.
The UN is another crook of yours that was/is good for nothing but giving lands they do not own to other than it's own....all there are dummies moved by strings as western super powers want....and has no prinicipals or justice nor the power in it's global dealings...so I guess only the ignorant would think otherwise..
And who is going to decided what is proper to teach? You??? I dont think so.
Why have the world reached this level of sufferings if any thing they were doing was right and just? Why have they allowed the environmental damages or allowed wars to break out ? Why have they created a war zone in the MidEast ever since established what achievements can be sought if even the super and first world countries are still growing in ignorance? Expect the 3 world became to suffer more of that...! Tell me why she did not open agri projects for those countries in the 3 World ? Why happier to give them only when famine falls upon them? So many why's but only God and few know the truth of such failure Orginizations that had taken us out of the right paths to the paths of greeds and vast interests of super dinosaurs as a (Private Dancer).T.T
Wow, it's like Muslims saying, "Yeah, we like Christians, but they can't have religious freedom in our land. No ands, no buts."
My the subject within is quite different from what you commented about it with!!
You are still lying. Point blank lying. Sad to see you intentionally sin so much.
As I have pointed out to you before. There are 10-22 MILLION Christians living in various Middle Eastern countries. And even more around the world who are descended from these countries.
These communities may face difficulties and prejudices. But, they have the freedom to believe, to practice, to build churches and go on pilgrimages. Egypt even has Christmas as a national holiday.
Stop lying to everyone by saying that they have no freedom at all.
@Hana, countries vary. But no, the Middle East and North Africa – the Muslim-majority land – do not have religious freedom. Everybody knows that. You really need to change the doctrines on treating infidels and apostates.
OceanLight and Hana,
I got to say the Hana is correct, in the coutries of the middle east christians are permitted to be christian. They have freedom of religion but they are also persecuted and often targetted for their belife. Hana you mention several times that in the US their are hate crimes against Muslims and I am very sad to say that does happen but you attempt to hide the fact that hate crimes are far worse in muslims countries.
Jdgwell83
No, I am not hiding the level of hate crimes in the Middle East. This is part of some much longer argument. She keeps throwing out this claim that Muslims are not treated badly in the West and that there are no Muslims who have been targeted or whatever. I have seen it from her in several topics. But, apparently she will not read long posts. So, I was straight to the point about her claims on Muslims in the West.
I know and fully admit to the human flaws and culturally misguided actions of many Brothers in Sisters all over the world. I will never hide the fact that many Muslims will do bad things. I just try to educate people about how it is 100% human flaw and culture, NOT the religion itself.
@OceanLight
Please read your own post again. You said.... "Yeah, we like Christians, but they can't have religious freedom in our land. No ands, no buts." This statement is a blatent lie. You did not write a statement about Muslims not having religious freedom to leave Islam. You did not write a statement about freedom of foreign missionaries to enter the country. You wrote CHRISTIANS dont have religious freedom. And that is wrong when you lump the Middle East into one general category. In almost all of the countries in the Middle East, Christians have the freedom to practice. In many of the countries, there are still significant populations of Christians living there and doing just that, practicing their faith.
Let me see...I think or not really sure what Arabic Christians are called... Although some say Eastern orthodox Christians...they have non or rather very few branches of Christian religion that is totally different from the West or East of Europe...!! Am sure they will be the first ones to refuse any new western branch of christianity to come sharing their followers or converting them...
Remember that the Eastern Church of Egypt had a long dispute in allowing the Western Church to Egypt...but until so much political pressure applied beside some tricks were pulled against them in form of terrorizing them while accusing Muslims for it has given sense of insecurity for them to end allowing it in to start converting into the western Christianity...
Salam brother,
There are several different Christian denominations in the Middle East. Names have to do with the community and foundation of theology. Coptic Christians do believe somethings differently than Syriac Christians or Maronites. Plus, there are several communities that have re-connected to Rome at some point. So, it can get complicated.
Sister Hana.
Does that mean they can export and impose upon Eastern Christianity land rights a new western Christianity?
I dont understand what you mean brother Muneef.
The Power Of Words.
Change your Words.
Change your Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU
Tell us more how we together Muslims,Christians,Jews try to conquer the Poverty and Starvation crises;
Horrific global food crisis is looming
26.04.2011
In case you haven't noticed, the world is on the verge of a horrific global food crisis. At some point, this crisis will affect you and your family. It may not be today, and it may not be tomorrow, but it is going to happen. Crazy weather and horrifying natural disasters have played havoc with agricultural production in many areas of the globe over the past couple of years. Meanwhile, the price of oil has begun to skyrocket. The entire global economy is predicated on the ability to use massive amounts of inexpensive oil to cheaply produce food and other goods and transport them over vast distances. Without cheap oil the whole game changes. Topsoil is being depleted at a staggering rate and key aquifers all over the world are being drained at an alarming pace. Global food prices are already at an all-time high and they continue to move up aggressively. So what is going to happen to our world when hundreds of millions more people cannot afford to feed themselves?
http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/26-04-2011/117704-food_crisis-0/
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Otherwise populations will be driven to that;
Middle Ages
Historical instances of widespread cannibalism are most often connected to extreme social upheavals, such as drought, plague and war, which result in devastating famine. For example, reports of cannibalism were recorded during the First Crusade, as famished Crusaders reportedly fed on the bodies of their dead opponents following the Siege of Ma'arrat al-Numan. Amin Maalouf also discusses further cannibalism incidents on the march to Jerusalem, and to the efforts made to delete mention of these from western history.
http://www.crystalinks.com/cannibalism.html
Read more different views from other article blog about it;
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Jose
Dude.. we have been on the verge of a global food shortage for 30 years.
July 21, 2011 at 2:39 pm | Report abuse |
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Muneef
Jose.
Thanks for the comment but what am saying is that this shortage is growing faster with that changes that has taken over since 30 years ago which means that the world is not going the right direction to solve such issues but rather making it worse and must be for a reason or some thing is wrong but cowards or hypocrites are keeping quite each fearing for his life or greedy for his own pleasures... And the Real Change is to fix this rather than reducing people or populations to maintain stability rather than grow ahead of it...as should be done.
You see now this mass marriages which I notice being grown to be practiced in several countries to support those who can not afford marriage, ok now how much does that contribute to growth of global populations...can we deprive them of such earthly pleasures of building families of more mouths to feed when food and water heading on fast to the shortage.
Find below beautiful remarks made by Kaiser in other blog I copied and pasted for you to read...thanks again.
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Richard S Kaiser
Hello Muneef,
I am too aware of the Direness Straights of Our Time wherewith the Globalizing of Increased numbers of Humane Omnivores such as ourselves may soon reach a point in Time as to become cannibalistically endowed might well happen. However, I do not foresee such to happen and I base this assumption on the Chinese Omnivores who eat just about anything and I mean it!
Otherly Nations apart from China will fall in step with Chinese Omnivorous consumptions of insects and sea creatures most have not yet deemed delectable and most of the Westerly Admonitions of Omnivorism may well have to put up or starve!
July 21, 2011 at 1:06 pm | Report abuse | Reply
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Hi, R.S.Kaiser.
I totally agree...to them food is knowledge...their supermarkets are one of the richest in food stuff...that might not all know of or eat of...
The mistake that our expansion has gone vertical only and horisiontly food is not grown...monopolizing food resources and now with fuel prices hike and scarcity....in addition to natural disasters,global warming,erosions,slash economy,global populations increase all these factors make foods and necessities day by day become more expensive unaffordable which becomes worse during conflicts at land or sea.it either eats your savings or gets you in to debt and become poorer by the day...
How much fertile lands close to river resources that are due conflicts or intentionally deprived from financial capitals and knowhow management can be applied to cover the world hunger...! How much land is not being utilized for agriculture....say from "The Lake Victoria" bordering countries;
http://www.lake-victoria.net/
Or more here;
http://www.ilec.or.jp/database/afr/afr-05.html
Then "The Nile (White/Blue)Rivers" bordering countries...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile
water is life,we need waters to grow our lands for our feed rather than look for oil to buy our foods or await charities....
All spending,investing in tourism luxury and pleasures or in high up to the sky buildings but no one of those we hear of in Forbes magazine spends in agriculture & Horticulture projects when they have all the power and facilities for such needs and knowledge.... They are happy appearing big in numbers competing towards same but God knows how much that will make them suffer if they do not use it to break in to some change of increasing supplies rather than reducing populations.... What we see today in famine countries such as east Africa is like hell on earth seeing people suffer as being in fire with out there being a fire...(The Sun Heat,The Hunger,The Thirst,The Illnesses,The Dying of closest relatives,No Roofs over head,No Peace,No Mercy what so ever....rate race like each wants to live on account of the other,ready to kill for extra share.... There are many resources other than fuel or gas oils to produce our needs for all activities and needs but the researches and secrets of such are being hid in favor of the oil lords and sheiks who are ready to wipe from the ground of earth any one brings alternatives for power just as did the News Media Lords for whom stands on their way....
Remember the joke they made to prove the powers of monopoly few years ago when they (NATO) had used the grains to produce Organic fuel oil which has had immediate effect on people in the 3 world when prices rose and became scarce leading into a similar situation...
Guess that Zombi blog few months ago was as an advanced prediction of the MidEast Spring and The East African Famine...expect soon some thing at the Euro Zone of the failing economies...
Could that be a result of the Multinational Companies that has no nationality and cares only for increasing profits and not caring about environment nor sustainability or development of any countries economies or their populations...
It is time for such dinosaurs to have a big bang and let every body work and live as a small or medium business owner rather than being a slave worker at such inconsiderate giant multinational companies who gave no chance to smaller family businesses eating it one by one taking it over or crash it down..
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July 21, 2011 at 7:30 pm | Report abuse |
To love God is to love his living creatures and speacially of mankind...are we really supposed to stand carelessly unproductive towards making a genuine change where we will see no one of any population live in poverty or dies of starvation or thirst....?
Don't tell me that this is happening because it is the will of God....! No it is rather by the will of men,the corruptors who live on the bloods of the poor nations and populations....Or because of indifference's in political or religious beliefs....if not for racal reasons....
Sorry Lycidas, the above should have been directed at David Johnson. =====================================================
No problem.
@ Lycdas: 5:15 Of ourse you can't believe God created all that. You may, like so many others, including some Christians, make God too little. Too many want to bring God down to the size and level of humans, they are even willng to say, "The big man in the sky." God is not man! The Bible teaches that God is Spirit, even I say, what does that mean? There is no way we can fathom the power and imminsty of God–no way! It remains a mystery, even to believers, why God would be interested in them Psalm 8:4 reads: "What is man, that thou art minful of him?" In other words, why should God care about man? Remember, when you look up into that stary sky, this earth is smaller than a grain of sand compared to all the sand on the sandy beaches on earth. It is a mystery that God loved you enough to send His Son to die for your (and everyone else's) sins. It is a very hard thing to believe, but that is what faith is all about.
@justathought
I just noticed your posted to me.
When theist's beliefs are challenged, and they cannot raise a decent argument, they always fall back on humans not being able to comprehend their god. It is their panic room. A safe place where they can hide their god, until the danger has passed.
Christians claim their god is Omnipotent ( all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all good).
1.If god is Omnibenevolent, He would WANT every human to believe in Him.
The bible says He does:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. King James Version (KJV)
1 Timothy 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. King James Version (KJV)
2. If god is Omniscient, then He would KNOW exactly how to convince anyone and everyone that He exists.
3. If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists.
Yet, ~ 67% of the world's population are not Christians.
Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist.
Cheers!
"they always fall back on humans not being able to comprehend their god. It is their panic room. A safe place where they can hide their god, until the danger has passed."
~Well..that's a lie.
"Christians claim their god is Omnipotent ( all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnibenevolent (all good)."
~No we don't. You keep saying the Omnibenevolent and it's still wrong. You do realize that retelling your lies don't eventually make them true.
"1.If god is Omnibenevolent, He would WANT every human to believe in Him.
The bible says He does: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. King James Version (KJV)"
~That verse does not imply that God is Omnibenevolent. Def not in the manner you want ppl to think. You think Omnibenevolent means that God cannot do anything that could be deemed wrathful or angry. That is simply not true.
"1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. King James Version (KJV)"
~Just because God wishes that all would be save does not mean they shall. You need to read the rest of the verses prior to the one you cherry picked. You will see that God requires his ppl to actually behave in a certain manner.
"2. If god is Omniscient, then He would KNOW exactly how to convince anyone and everyone that He exists."
~You imply that there is a exact way to convince someone. What if there is not? Because if there was a way under every possible situation...what of free will?
"3. If god is Omnipotent, then He would be ABLE to convince anybody and everybody that He exists."
~You ignore free will.
"Yet, ~ 67% of the world's population are not Christians."
~So?? When did a large number of ppl justified any action? Do you believe in group think?
Curious enough since you like %, the majority of the world follows after the Abrahamic religions. Does that make it right then? You seem to put a lot of value in those %.
"Therefore, the Christian god is very unlikely to exist."
~Your opinion and nothing more.
@ Reality Personaly, I have a feeling that the only thing you believe is yourself. You make too many erroneous staments. I believe you would argue with other athiests just to be arguing.
Amazing. These little surveys do not reflect the reality of what Islam says about the west, westerners, and non-believers. It is very simple: If you are not muslim, then you are a non-believer. According to the quran, in several hundred locations, you will be destroyed, conquered, or converted. We really cannot depend on the PEW study for, well, anything. We must continue to fight Islam before more terrorism can occur. It is not religion we are fighting, but the ideology of the quran http:// banthemosque dot com is a place to start. Here you can read about how Islam is dangerous. Period. No fancy arguments, just the fact that Islam is dangerous to westerners. Always has been, always will. at banthemosque.com you can also see how we will dismantle, and ban all mosques in the US, alot like they are doing in Switzerland, Germany, and France. I am not ignorant, nor am I a hate filled racist. Islam is dangerous.
If you know all of those quotes, go back and read them again and include the sections around the quotes... put them into context. The majority of the quotes you are talking about refer to the destruction of the non-believers in hell, after they die, after they face judgment... not on earth. What little is left has various contexts. Some are specifically talking about those that commit sin. Some are cases of giving history (accounts of battles that have already happened, not commands for the future). And... etc. Plus, the Quran specifically tells Muslims to be equitable to Christians and Jews and leave them to their messages as they have already received prophets of their own. So, it is forbidding forced conversions of them.
By the way, those surveys also have a tendency of not asking specific questions that might paint a different picture. For example, what type of Muslim they are talking to. There are many different groups, schools of thought, and more. That can have a role in how someone answers.
Concerned America,
I am an American Christian and you are an idiot. First, Islam DOES NOT teach that Non-Believers should be destroyed. That is a claim put of their to make simple minded people believe in the non-existant war against Islam. Also, who do you think you are talking about banning mosques in the US. It's called FREEDOM OF RELIGION idiot! You hate muslims because your red neck inbred mommy and daddy told you that the KKK was always right. I really am amazed you have internet in whatever backwoods town you live in. People like you disgust me and continue to make the US look bad. You are the American version of a terrorist.
You reveal your ignorance in your comments. It is clear that you have not read the Q’uran and do not truly know what Islam teaches. Like many people, you took the word of someone who shares your political views and did not bother to think for yourself.
Jdgwell83 address most of your misconceptions. Muslims honor Jews and Christians as “people of the book”. Meaning, people who share the same history of faith (the Old Testament). Jesus is revered as a great prophet of God (He is mentioned more times in the Q’uran than Mohammed is).
Religious freedom is the cornerstone of this nation. The same arguments you are using against Muslims are the exact same arguments people have used against Jews, Catholics, and other faiths in this country’s history. As we know now, those arguments were all wrong, bigoted, and incorrect. So is the same with the arguments against Islam.
There's never anything, however absurd, that myriads of people weren't prepared to believe, often so passionately that they'd fight to the death rather than abandon their illusions. To me, that's a good operational definition of insanity.
Arthur C. Clark
Man is, and always has been a maker of gods – John Burroughs
The gods are very unlikely to exist. Why argue who is more powerful, Superman or the Flash? LOL
Believers are the craziest people!
"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."
Arthur C. Clark
"When I look up at the starry heavens at night and reflect upon what it is that I really see there, I am constrained to say, "There is no God." The mind staggers in its attempt to grasp the idea of a being that could do that. It is futile to attempt it. It is not the works of some God that I see there. I am face to face with a power that baffles speech."
John Burroughs
Believers are not crzy simply because they believe in something. Such a notion is crazy.
So... you're a NON-believer, David? If so you can not (or,at least SHOULD not) believe in your own existence and in the existence of the world around you including your computer, the Internet and all those people who, possibly, may read your posts. WHY do you bother?
A NON-believer (someone who does not believe in ANYTHING) with a functioning brain is an impossibility. Most believers (including David Johnson above) believe that THEIR set of beliefs is THE right one.
@Lycidas
Maybe not crazy, but apparently they are deceitful:
The entire John Burroughs quote:
"When I look up at the starry heavens at night and reflect upon what it is that I really see there, I am constrained to say, "There is no God." The mind staggers in its attempt to grasp the idea of a being that could do that. It is futile to attempt it. It is not the works of some God that I see there. I am face to face with a power that baffles speech. I see no lineaments of personality, no human traits, but an energy upon whose currents solar systems are but bubbles. In the presence of it man and the race of man are less than motes in the air. I doubt if any mind can expand its conception of God sufficiently to meet the astounding disclosures of modern science. It is easier to say there is no God. The universe is so unhuman, that is, it goes its way with so little thought of man. He is but an incident, not an end. We must adjust our notions to the discovery that things are not shaped to him, but that he is shaped to them. The air was not made for his lungs, but he has lungs because there is air; the light was not created for his eye, but he has eyes because there is light. All the forces of nature are going their own way; man avails himself of them, or catches a ride as best he can"
Cheers!
@Lycidas
You quoted: "Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."
Arthur C. Clark"
How Science Will Revolutionize the Twenty-First Century (1999) by Michio Kaku, p. 295
This is talking about finding intelligent life in the universe, other than us. Not a god. LOL! LOL 'till my sides ache.
Cheers!!
@Thinker23
You blathered: "So... you're a NON-believer, David? If so you can not (or,at least SHOULD not) believe in your own existence and in the existence of the world around you including your computer, the Internet and all those people who, possibly, may read your posts. WHY do you bother?"
I, and probably most of the non-believers that comment on this blog, are not trying to persuade the true believers we respond to. We are trying to show the reader(s) of these comments, who have not yet drank the Kool Aid, that god ain't necessarily so.
Many of the theist's comments, read as if there is no doubt that they are right. They have picked the one true god and they have correctly interpreted that god's will, from the bible.
Non-believers point out that in reality, what the theists are saying is just their opinion. And opinions are like anuses. Everybody has one.
The theists have no evidence, that what they are "preaching" has any validity whatsoever. In fact, the opposite is true. There is tons of evidence that make the Christian god very unlikely.
Cheers!
@Thinker23
You said: "A NON-believer (someone who does not believe in ANYTHING) with a functioning brain is an impossibility. Most believers (including David Johnson above) believe that THEIR set of beliefs is THE right one."
I am an atheist. I do not believe any gods exist. I do believe in the natural world. I believe in empirical evidence.
In the real world, any object that provides no evidence for its existence is classified as imaginary.
The gods give no evidence that they exist. This is because they are imaginary.
The current crop of gods are no more real than Thor or Zeus, or Athena. At one time, these gods were prayed to and feared. Now they are silent.
Cheers!
"We must adjust our notions to the discovery that things are not shaped to him, but that he is shaped to them."
A ridiculous statement...
@David- I am sorry...I didn't think it was needed to put the whole paragraph down to get the point across. You do realize the point right? Seemed you got a little bit upset that someone wanted to throw a few quotes your way 😉
Well duh....all the man could talk about was aliens. I think it was almost his faith. But the quote could also be used in the spiritual. I doubt a Bozo (look at the other quotes I directed toward you for the reference) would understand that since you are laughing till you hurt. No doub the pain keeps you from thinking clearly.
Oh..almost forgot David,
Shalom!
Since you feel the need for quotations...another one for you:
"Beware of thinkers whose minds function only when they are fueled by a quotation."
Emile Cioran
We shall beware of you David.
Shalom!
You would be surprised that whatever the atheists and theists may believe in have more in common and connection in them than what may initially seem. The science and knowledge world are discovering more and more inter-correlations between religious believes and scientific proofs, and more and more of what we initially believed as scientific facts are being debunked and rethought as new revelations emerge. The difference is religion comes with its set of rules to abide, whereas science do not. But one should ponder upon the significance of these revelations and not think too highly of ourselves as human beings for we have yet to reach the level of understanding the ultimate truth, and not dismiss religion so easily.