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July 25th, 2011
11:13 AM ET
Is 'Christian fundamentalist' label correct for Norway terror suspect?By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor (CNN) - Given initial suspicions that Friday's bombing and mass shooting in Norway were carried out by Islamic militants linked to al Qaeda, the way police ended up describing the suspect behind the attacks came as a big surprise even to many security experts: The alleged attacker was called a "Christian fundamentalist." But experts on European politics and religion say that the Christian fundamentalist label could overstate the extent to which the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik - who has told authorities that he carried out the attacks - was motivated by religion, and the extent to which he is tied to a broader religious movement. "It is true that he sees himself as a crusader and some sort of Templar knight," said Marcus Buck, a political science professor at Norway's University of Tromso, referring to an online manifesto that Breivik appears to have authored and which draws inspiration from medieval Christian crusaders. My Take: Norway attacks shows terrorism isn't just Islamic "But he doesn't seem to have any insight into Christian theology or any ideas of how the Christian faith should play any role in Norwegian or European society," Buck wrote in an email message. "His links to Christianity are much more based on being against Islam and what he perceives of as 'cultural Marxism.'" From what the 1,500-page manifesto says, Breivik appears to have been motivated more by an extreme loathing of European multiculturalism that has accompanied rapid immigration from the developing world, and of the European Union's growing powers, than by Christianity. "My impression is that Christianity is used more as a vehicle to unjustly assign some religious moral weight," to his political views, said Anders Romarheim, a fellow at the Norwegian Institute for Defence Studies. "It is a signifier of Western culture and values, which is what they pretend to defend." "I would say they are more anti-Islam than pro-Christian," Romarheim said in reference to what appear to be Breivik's views. The manifesto is religion-obsessed in that it rants for long stretches against Muslims and their growing presence in Europe. Who is Anders Behring Breivik? It calls for a European civil war to overthrow governments, end multiculturalism and execute "cultural Marxists." The manifesto includes a link to a video asserting that the majority of Europe's population will be Muslim by 2050 "unless we manage to defeat the ruling Multiculturalist Alliance." The author of the document identifies himself as Breivik, but CNN could not independently verify that he wrote the document, and Norwegian authorities would not confirm that the man in their custody wrote the manifesto, saying it was part of their investigation Opposition to booming Muslim immigration to Europe, exacerbated by high birth rates in the Muslim community, has become a mainstay of Europe's burgeoning far-right, helping right-wing parties gain seats in parliaments across the continent. But those right-wing movements are mostly secular. Europe's hard right does not have deep ties to Christianity in the way that the United States' conservative movement is entwined with evangelical Christianity and other theologically conservative religious movements. A far-right comeback in Europe Recently adopted European laws aimed at curbing Islam's public visibility, including France's new burqa ban and Switzerland ban on minarets - towers that a part of mosques - were secular causes, not ones championed by Christian interests. Many Christian groups oppose such bans. "The bulk of the anti-Muslim sentiment is not against Muslims as such, but is a secular rejection of how some Muslims allegedly want to place Islam at the center of society," Buck said. "It is more anti-religious than anti-Muslim." Breivik's apparent manifesto, by contrast, cites biblical verses to justify violence for political ends. "Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve," it says. "It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight. Over and over again throughout the Old Testament, His people are commanded to fight with the best weapons available to them at that time." "The biggest threat to Europe is the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist political doctrine of 'extreme egalitarian emotionalism,'" the manifesto goes on. "This type of political stance involves destroying Christendom, the Church, our European cultures and identities and opening up our borders to Islamic colonization." The video that's linked to in the manifesto also includes some religious language: "Celebrate us, the martyrs of the conservative revolution, for we will soon dine in the Kingdom of Heaven." Experts on religion in Europe said those faith-infused views are likely peculiar to the suspected gunman and do not appear reflect wider religious movements, even as they echoes grievances of Europe's right-wing political groups. "He was a flaky extremist who might as well have claimed to be fighting for the honor of Hogwarts as for the cause of Christ," said Philip Jenkins, a Pennsylvania State University professor who studies global religion and politics, describing the suspected Norway attacker. "He did not represent a religious movement. ... People should not follow that Christian fundamentalist red herring." At the same time, Breivik told investigators during interviews that he belongs to an international order, The Knights Templar, according to Norwegian newspaper VG, which cited unnamed sources. He described the organization as an armed Christian order, fighting to rid the West of Islamic suppression, the newspaper said. He also told investigators he had been in contact with like-minded individuals and said he counts himself as a representative of this order, it said. For many in Norway, the potential implications of the suspected killer's religion are still settling in. "This is the first time we've heard of Christianity/religion as a driving force behind right-wing extremism," Buck said. "The mainstream right-wing movements in the Nordic countries (very small and disorganized groups in Norway) would generally point to the Old Norse beliefs, if anything." "Norwegian, Nordic and European society," he said, "were totally unprepared for a violent attack from someone who calls himself Christian." soundoff (1,640 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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its not the religion, practice, or race non of that matters, all that matters is the decision that person made.
Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam all practice and preach peace, love and prosperity... im 16 and read the bible, qur'an, and hebrew bible, non of which says kill for you religion or hurt your partner(wife).
Look up dhimitude and lslam and tell me that Islam does not preach intollerance. Your trying to sugar coat the venom from thier book.
Valno,
Look up the history of the American Indian and how Christianity used the bible to all but eliminate the culture and people with violence and murder. Don’t sugar coat Christianity.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5 and 6, sometimes called Jesus' manifesto of how to be a Christian, Jesus commanded not to respond to enemies in kind but to love and pray for them. Thus this young man is in no way a representative of Christianity any more than the person who bombs abortion clinics. I do not agree with abortions, NOR do I think we have the right to make violence in response to violence. As difficult as it is to me, I must pray for this young man and the others who do violence alledgedly in the name of God. I suspect Jesus will say 'I tell you I never knew you." And btw did you notice his examples came from the OLD Testament?
I totally agree with you. I think it is unfair to call this person a "Christian fundamentalist terrorist". His ideas don't add up and seem quite confused and off-base to me. I would describe this as "insane".
Maybe it will be worthwhile to split terrorism from religion in general that way – maybe the islamic terrorists just appear so "muslim" to us because they come from an arabic society in which "god is great" is almost just another way of saying "hi".
For those that think Christianity has no blood on its hands because one of the 10 commandments says thou shell not kill, did you not study American History? You left out the part where the bible was used to eradicate the American Indian. Took Christians only about 2 centuries but they have successfully used the bible to commit genocide not only the culture but the people who where indigenous to this land for thousands of years before white Europeans came and took over. Only decreasing minority in America? The American Indian, that’s a real world consequence of the bible being used for destructive purposes. Any, let me repeat that, any religious scripture can be used for evil and not good. So take yourself off that high horse and go study some history of the real destruction that your so perfect book of scripture has caused. It’s not alone, but it’s just as guilty as the rest.
If you state how the Bible was used for negative parts of American history then you have to look towards the good aspects as well. We have war letters and speeches of union troops declaring their actions to set men free was a religious one. Martin Luther King and the civil rights struggle all had religious overtones. Should we forget their sacrifices because of the actions of others? Or can we judge each by his or her actions?
I don't understand... this article is questioning the label of "Christian Fundamentalist" because the terrorist has little advanced knowledge of Christian Theology and how it would function with the context of the broader society? In what way does this terrorists' lack of knowledge differ from all the Muslims who have been called Islamic Terrorists for decades? Double standard!
Every 15 years or so, a radical white guy goes crazy and kills many people (and they don't hop on table tops while shooting everyone yelling "Jesus Christ all power to him"!!) Wow!, everyone always forgets that muslims kill THEIR OWN and others everyday around the world as they loudly say "Allah is the Greatest". They hide behind baby carriages, mosques, school buses, etc, EVERYDAY!!!. Truly, where is the outcry from muslims at the everyday murders around the world from there own! (Sorry, the USA can only be blamed so long for your troubles). I believe, as a christian, that anyone who kills an innocent person/child should be hunted down and brought to trial... hang Breivik now! (oops, sorry... noose mob on the loose). We christians would hunt the streets looking for such a low life! ...whether so called christian or muslim or jew. Not so with the muslim community.
A Chinese man goes into a kindergarten school (in China) and kills most of them with a knife (sorry you libs, they have great gun control in China, so they use knives instead). The point is...its a human nature thing!!!!, and right now the radical islam terrorists are the biggest problem! Get over it!
Islamic fundamentalist = expect others in your own faith to not stand up and hunt down the evil doers in your religion, followed with blaming all problems on USA instead of Fascist, Dictator, Socialist leaders! Cower in fear instead of standing up to what is right. Almost all in Islamic fundamentalist yell " allahu akbar!" when killing little children on buses.
Christian fundamentalist = ALWAYS hunt down those who kill in the name of Christianity. NEVER, I repeat NEVER, has any so called "Christian" yelled "Christ is Great!!" in killing others.
Common sense... it is long gone in media and general humanity.
Ideologs always come in all forms...we are always surprised everyday when something new happens. To compare the atrocities around the world everyday to one incident is childish and not very common sensed. You picked one "christian" compared to many muslim/Islam "radicals" (political correct)whom almost EVERYDAY blow children and innocent people during weddings and funerals, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and yell "allahu akbar" in almost all attacks. I tell you what, let me know when the ratio of Islamic killings, while they yell "Allahu Akbar"!!!!,even comes close to a 1 in 100,000 ratio of christians yelling "Christ is all Mighty!" when they kill
John, Christians kill each other every single day. Historically they have committed their own genocides (American Indians). They also bomb abortion clinics. And let’s not forget all the crazy Christian fundamentalists in this country running around playing war games every weekend in the woods. And then there is the group I can’t write because CNN wont post this but the one’s that burn crosses. They also use Christianity to their liking to promote their cause. Get off your high horse please…
"But he doesn't seem to have any insight into Christian theology" – that would describe most christians.
Someone said, He's "not Christian, he's crazy", Careful. Do you suggest that Christians are not crazy? Tough argument to make.
Yes. If you saw someone kneeling and talking to a hair dryer, you'd think he was nuts. But if you take away the hair dryer, you'd think he was praying.
No matter how we waste our time trying to twist things, he is a christian terrorist. The whole world knows this. We can continue decieving our selfves if we so wish! This guy is clearly a fundamentalist christian with a crusader mentality of the highest order.
Every 15 years or so, a radical white guy goes crazy and kills many people (and they don't hop on table tops while shooting everyone yelling "Jesus Christ all power to him"!!) Wow!, everyone always forgets that muslims kill THEIR OWN and others everyday around the world as they loudly say "Allah is the Greatest". They hide behind baby carriages, mosques, school buses, etc, EVERYDAY!!!. Truly, where is the outcry from muslims at the everyday murders around the world from there own! (Sorry, the USA can only be blamed so long for your troubles). I believe, as a christian, that anyone who kills an innocent person/child should be hunted down and brought to trial... hang Breivik now! (oops, sorry... noose mob on the loose). We christians would hunt the streets looking for such a low life! ...whether so called christian or muslim or jew. Not so with the muslim community.
A Chinese man goes into a kindergarten school (in China) and kills most of them with a knife (sorry you libs, they have great gun control in China, so they use knives instead). The point is...its a human nature thing!!!!, and right now the radical islam terrorists are the biggest problem! Get over it!
Islamic fundamentalist = expect others in your own faith to not stand up and hunt down the evil doers in your religion, followed with blaming all problems on USA instead of Fascist, Dictator, Socialist leaders! Cower in fear instead of standing up to what is right. Almost all in Islamic fundamentalist yell " allahu akbar!" when killing little children on buses.
Christian fundamentalist = ALWAYS hunt down those who kill in the name of Christianity. NEVER, I repeat NEVER, has any so called "Christian" yelled "Christ is Great!!" in killing others.
Common sense... it is long gone in media and general humanity.
Ideologs always come in all forms...we are always surprised everyday when something new happens. To compare the atrocities around the world everyday to one incident is childish and not very common sensed. You picked one "christian" compared to many muslim/Islam "radicals" (political correct)whom almost EVERYDAY blow children and innocent people during weddings and funerals, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and yell "allahu akbar" in almost all attacks. I tell you what, let me know when the ratio of Islamic killings, while they yell "Allahu Akbar"!!!!,even comes close to a 1 in 100,000 ratio of christians yelling "Christ is all Mighty!" when they kill..
It's funny how we use the word "fundamentalist" in our culture. I think that these violent and misguided religious fundamentalists actually aren't fundamental enough. If they truly knew the "fundamentals" of their faith, they certainly wouldn't commit these types of horrors, Muslim, Christian, whatever.
Reading his own words, he definitely believes himself to be a christian, and expects heavenly reward for his actions. His words are not so different than the words of radical christian fundamentalists in our own country. I honestly don't think christian fundamentalist is too far off the mark. He certainly qualifies for "christian terrorist."
he is not an f'n Christian.... He never attended any Christian schools, he didn't attend religious functions, he didn't even own a bible... He is as much a Christian as I am a Buddhist..... and guess what I'M JEWISH
Most people who identify themselves as Christians never go to Church or own a bible. Most who do, don't understand its teachings anyway. Busiest day in a Catholic Church? Easter and Christmas. Emptiest days? Every other Sunday.
He identifies as a christian. He cites the bible as a source and an excuse for his actions. He believes he will go to heaven for his actions. If behaving in a Christ-like manner is a requisite for christianity, there are very few christians indeed. If calling oneself a christian qualifies you, than there are many christians in this world, this terrible man among them.
Let's just all be good people ok. Love your family and friends, help those who need help, be charitable when possible. You don't need religion to be a civil HUMAN. Can't everyone on here just agree that you don't need religion to be a good person. There's good and bad folks on both sides, all sides for that matter. Isn't it enough to be kind and compassionate, to do right. Its easy to hate and destroy, that simple. But to love and honor, that takes humanity. Christian or athiest, doing good should be common sense stuff by now. Anders is a bad man, he is wrong and evil. Its not religions fault. He, like jihadist, twisted good into evil. I wish the best in life for you all on here and all around the world. My heart goes out to the victimshere families, and country.
Christian terrorists bomb abortion clinics, so said individual is a Christian wack job
Every 15 years or so, a radical white guy goes crazy and kills many people (and they don't hop on table tops while shooting everyone yelling "Jesus Christ all power to him"!!) Wow!, everyone always forgets that muslims kill THEIR OWN and others everyday around the world as they loudly say "Allah is the Greatest". They hide behind baby carriages, mosques, school buses, etc, EVERYDAY!!!. Truly, where is the outcry from muslims at the everyday murders around the world from there own! (Sorry, the USA can only be blamed so long for your troubles). I believe, as a christian, that anyone who kills an innocent person/child should be hunted down and brought to trial... hang Breivik now! (oops, sorry... noose mob on the loose). We christians would hunt the streets looking for such a low life! ...whether so called christian or muslim or jew. Not so with the muslim community.
A Chinese man goes into a kindergarten school (in China) and kills most of them with a knife (sorry you libs, they have great gun control in China, so they use knives instead). The point is...its a human nature thing!!!!, and right now the radical islam terrorists are the biggest problem! Get over it!
Islamic fundamentalist = expect others in your own faith to not stand up and hunt down the evil doers in your religion, followed with blaming all problems on USA instead of Fascist, Dictator, Socialist leaders! Cower in fear instead of standing up to what is right. Almost all in Islamic fundamentalist yell " allahu akbar!" when killing little children on buses.
Christian fundamentalist = ALWAYS hunt down those who kill in the name of Christianity. NEVER, I repeat NEVER, has any so called "Christian" yelled "Christ is Great!!" in killing others.
Common sense... it is long gone in media and general humanity.
Ideologs always come in all forms...we are always surprised everyday when something new happens. To compare the atrocities around the world everyday to one incident is childish and not very common sensed. You picked one "christian" compared to many muslim/Islam "radicals" (political correct)whom almost EVERYDAY blow children and innocent people during weddings and funerals, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and yell "allahu akbar" in almost all attacks. I tell you what, let me know when the ratio of Islamic killings, while they yell "Allahu Akbar"!!!!,even comes close to a 1 in 100,000 ratio of christians yelling "Christ is all Mighty!" when they kill.
Perhaps the argument should be that a sufficiently dogmatic and fundamentalist organization of any sort has a tendency to dehumanize those that aren't members.
We should all be wary of any group that is convinced that their way is the only way...
Double standars is our way. When someone other than us commits terrible act, we are good at putting flood lights on them, condemning their religion for the act. And if one of us did a horrible act we are quick in twisting facts and rejecting him as one of us. If we know the true teaching of the religion of those we comdmn, we should not attack their religion ignorantly. Let us understand that our double-standard tricks are out of steam.
A Christian fundamental: Thou shalt not kill
He's not a "Christian fundamentalist".
oh LIKE HELL! In what Bizarro parrallel universe do YOU live in? ALL Fundamentalists, ESPECIALLY Christian, are the FIRST ones to grab a gun and attempt violence if someone disagrees with them. Abortion Doctors... perfect example.
Interesting how when the perp is a white Christian, it is always an "isolated incident." Adolf Hitler was Christian, Timothy McVeigh, members of the KKK all profess to be "Christians." All have killed millions of non Christians from the Native People of North America, Central America, and South America to the Jews in Germany, the Black Africans in Africa and the Slaves in the US (who were owned by White Christians). Not to mention the Catholics and Protestants. All are viewed as not representative of White Christians. Yet all acts by all others are adequate representations of their ethnic or religious groups. Truth is that no one has it right.
Hmm.. you think the crusaders and the knights Templar missed that memo?
Oh, pull the other one. Anyone with the slightest inkling of history knows that you are lying through your teeth.
@snow: yes, I do.
@Truth Talker: okay...what does that have to do with you replying to my post?
@Daniel: Do you know what a fundamental is?
Heck.. the crusades were requested and campaigned for by the pope for biggie's sake!! you think the pope ALSO missed the memo? If you think the Pope also is misguided, who the heck are you following? The lights in your bedroom?
The puritans considered themselves very fundamentally christian, but that didn't stop them from attacking and torching a village of Pequot Indians, many of them women and children who were trapped and burned alive. The Indian allies of the puritans, long-time enemies of the Pequot, upon seeing this brutality begged for mercy for their enemies, but the christians would have none.
@Snow: Do you really think you have to be Catholic to be a Christian?
@tallulah13: What they did was un-christian...what's your point?
Oh Bryan.. I think I missed the memo that talked about "One god according to ABC" vs "One god according to PQR" vs "One god according to you" theory. My Bad!
@Snow: Pff. Obviously. Now you know: Not all Christians follow the Pope. Now you are one step closer to being less ignorant.
Bryan, the point that you obviously are trying your best to ignore, is that christians are just as violent and deadly as any other human on the planet. Denying that fact makes you at best a fool, at worst, a liar.
tallulah13: Fair enough. I admit Christians do really bad things. That, however, was not my point.
What the man did was un-christian.
He is white,he killed white people. He is Christian he killed Christian people....only thing that remains that he claimed it being directed against Gvt...so it is political issues against his own people who came running to him for he was the right color and wearing a police uniform...
Am sure if it was a colored person even if wearing a police uniform...the time he called them to gather arround they would have run away with the sight of guns on him...!
I'm an atheist conservative. This psycho killer is not a christian. I find it sadly humorous that liberal commies are seizing on this tragic event to achieve their pathetic means.
Doule-standard tricks are over. the world is more sophisticated than you think. The whole world knows that he is a fundamental christian terrorist period.
I am an agnostic liberal, and I agree that this is an unjust slander against Christian Fundamentalists. I just wish you would give most liberals the same benefit of the doubt that you ask for them.
If he's not a Christian fundamentalist, then maybe we should re-examine what the term Islamic fundamentalist means.
Christian or Islamic or Muslim Fundamentalist... it's ALL THE SAME THING: hate-filled, igorant, angry, dangerous, bigoted, psychotic Right Wing lunatics who spread nothing but POISON and do NO good for anyone on this planet.
Exactly. My point is that no "fundamentalists" understand the basic tenants of their religion. The problem is, no one raises a stink when anyone mentions Islamic fundamentalism, even though they're just as misguided as any fundamentalist.
Compare the texts of Islam with the tenets of christianity. Jesus tells his followers to love their enemeis and to do good to those who hurt them. Evil might get done in the name of christianity (those who shoot abortion doctors), but it does not align with what christ directed.
The koran, in comparison, has got many calls of violence against unbelievers. the promise of paradise for those who die in a holy war. The "islamic fundamentalists" are simply following their religion more closely than those who decided to compromise their faith.
Islamic fundamentalist = expect others in your own faith to not stand up and hunt down the evil doers in your religion, followed with blaming all problems on USA instead of Fascist, Dictator, Socialist leaders! Cower in fear instead of standing up to what is right. Almost all in Islamic fundamentalist yell " allahu akbar!" when killing little children on buses.
Christian fundamentalist = ALWAYS hunt down those who kill in the name of Christianity. NEVER, I repeat NEVER, has any so called "Christian" yelled "Christ is Great!!" in killing others.
Common sense... it is long gone in media and general humanity.
My opinion is that he is an ideologue who thinks that his twisted ideas justify criminal actions.
Criminal Ideologues come in all shapes and forms: Marxist (Andreas Baader) Muslim (Osama bin Laden) Christian(Eric Rudolph) Nazi(Heydrich) to name few.
Nazis were christiand too. Duh!
Alex. Ideologs always come in all forms...we are always surprised everyday when something new happens. To compare the atrocities around the world everyday to one incident is childish and not very common sensed. You picked one "christian" compared to many muslim/Islam "radicals" (political correct)whom almost EVERYDAY blow children and innocent people during weddings and funerals, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and yell "allahu akbar" in almost all attacks. I tell you what, let me know when the ratio of Islamic killings, while they yell "Allahu Akbar"!!!!,even comes close to a 1 in 100,000 ratio of christians yelling "Christ is all Mighty!" when they kill.
He is not "Christian" he is a crazy man. If he is Christian tell us what church he is going. You are inventing arguments for giving us distorted information, that is not fair
Sorry but the man is a Christian and the details of who he is, what church he attends and so on was given. You can't change the facts by burying your head in the sand.
What you should be doing now is teaching that the actions were un-Christian so that none of your fellow Christians follow down the same path.
You don't have to go to church to be a Christian. Nowhere does it say you have to in the bible, infact, it says in plain text that prayer and worship should be done in private, praying in church with a bunch of people is not genuine.
I'm sorry, how is praying in a church not genuine? It says in multiple places of the NT that community worship is of the utmost importance. You don't have to go to church to be saved but it is important to share your faith with fellow believers.
There is no evidence that he was a follower of Jesus or that he belonged to any church.
Joseph, you are wrong. By his own words, he considers himself a christian. He cites the bible as reason and excuse for his actions. He expects a heavenly reward for his actions. I get that you don't want him to be a christian, but too bad. Your desires don't change truth.
That Conky and Drew are both referencing the Bible to support themselves regarding an issue they're divided on, is case-in-point as to the root of the problem with Religions and their Scriptures: conflict is inevitable (even WITHIN Christianity/Islam) whenever people become dogmatic over writings they consider to be the very words of the Almighty, because–much to the believer's consternation–these "scriptures" actually DO SUPPORT BOTH SIDES of competing interpretations! The compilations of ancient writings considered "inspired" weren't chosen because of their consistencies/agreements; on the contrary, the potency of their influence is due to the way they try to cover all the bases and attempt to have every argument both ways–according to their particular theme. Christians like to claim that one needs the Spirit of God to guide the heart and illuminate the Bible, conversely accusing whoever disagrees with their version of NOT having the Spirit. However, instead of relying on some mystical "paraclete" (guiding companion) to determine which of the Bible's inconsistancies to give precedence (thereby subjegating all competing verses/doctrines to the role of "clarifiers", instead of "contradictions"–nice try), let's put our emotions (i.e.-fears) in check and admit that–considering all the ways that scriptures have been used to the detriment of humanity–they could NOT be the perfectly inspired product of an all-knowing and all-loving Deity, Who's prime intention was to bring humanity back into harmony with each other and Itself.
I've spent the majority of my years whole-heartedly serving in and training/studying for the Christian ministry, only to conclude that the endemic combination of "cognitive-dissonance" and "divine-silence" wasn't worth my sanity and integrity. I can no longer honestly seek for the Source of Truth through someone else's interpretations of stranger's translations of copies of the dreams/visions of yet further ancients, nor consider that severely convoluted hearsay to be the Creator's "personal love-letter" to me.
Let's seek to benefit humanity and the world around us, by adhering to that code intrinsic to all of us–which includes the abhorance of killing innocents and children: treat others the way you'd want to be treated (that wasn't a Jesus-original). Anyone who finds pleasure in or makes excuses for the destruction of others, may very well be a true 'believer' in some other dimension, but, they have abdicated their humanity in the process. After all, this 'human-experience' is all any of us can really know we have for sure. Don't waste it speculating on allegations and wishes.