July 25th, 2011
11:13 AM ET
Is 'Christian fundamentalist' label correct for Norway terror suspect?
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor
(CNN) - Given initial suspicions that Friday's bombing and mass shooting in Norway were carried out by Islamic militants linked to al Qaeda, the way police ended up describing the suspect behind the attacks came as a big surprise even to many security experts: The alleged attacker was called a "Christian fundamentalist."
But experts on European politics and religion say that the Christian fundamentalist label could overstate the extent to which the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik - who has told authorities that he carried out the attacks - was motivated by religion, and the extent to which he is tied to a broader religious movement.
"It is true that he sees himself as a crusader and some sort of Templar knight," said Marcus Buck, a political science professor at Norway's University of Tromso, referring to an online manifesto that Breivik appears to have authored and which draws inspiration from medieval Christian crusaders.
My Take: Norway attacks shows terrorism isn't just Islamic
"But he doesn't seem to have any insight into Christian theology or any ideas of how the Christian faith should play any role in Norwegian or European society," Buck wrote in an email message. "His links to Christianity are much more based on being against Islam and what he perceives of as 'cultural Marxism.'"
From what the 1,500-page manifesto says, Breivik appears to have been motivated more by an extreme loathing of European multiculturalism that has accompanied rapid immigration from the developing world, and of the European Union's growing powers, than by Christianity.
"My impression is that Christianity is used more as a vehicle to unjustly assign some religious moral weight," to his political views, said Anders Romarheim, a fellow at the Norwegian Institute for Defence Studies. "It is a signifier of Western culture and values, which is what they pretend to defend."
"I would say they are more anti-Islam than pro-Christian," Romarheim said in reference to what appear to be Breivik's views.
The manifesto is religion-obsessed in that it rants for long stretches against Muslims and their growing presence in Europe.
Who is Anders Behring Breivik?
It calls for a European civil war to overthrow governments, end multiculturalism and execute "cultural Marxists." The manifesto includes a link to a video asserting that the majority of Europe's population will be Muslim by 2050 "unless we manage to defeat the ruling Multiculturalist Alliance."
The author of the document identifies himself as Breivik, but CNN could not independently verify that he wrote the document, and Norwegian authorities would not confirm that the man in their custody wrote the manifesto, saying it was part of their investigation
Opposition to booming Muslim immigration to Europe, exacerbated by high birth rates in the Muslim community, has become a mainstay of Europe's burgeoning far-right, helping right-wing parties gain seats in parliaments across the continent.
But those right-wing movements are mostly secular. Europe's hard right does not have deep ties to Christianity in the way that the United States' conservative movement is entwined with evangelical Christianity and other theologically conservative religious movements.
A far-right comeback in Europe
Recently adopted European laws aimed at curbing Islam's public visibility, including France's new burqa ban and Switzerland ban on minarets - towers that a part of mosques - were secular causes, not ones championed by Christian interests. Many Christian groups oppose such bans.
"The bulk of the anti-Muslim sentiment is not against Muslims as such, but is a secular rejection of how some Muslims allegedly want to place Islam at the center of society," Buck said. "It is more anti-religious than anti-Muslim."
Breivik's apparent manifesto, by contrast, cites biblical verses to justify violence for political ends.
"Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve," it says. "It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight. Over and over again throughout the Old Testament, His people are commanded to fight with the best weapons available to them at that time."
"The biggest threat to Europe is the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist political doctrine of 'extreme egalitarian emotionalism,'" the manifesto goes on. "This type of political stance involves destroying Christendom, the Church, our European cultures and identities and opening up our borders to Islamic colonization."
The video that's linked to in the manifesto also includes some religious language: "Celebrate us, the martyrs of the conservative revolution, for we will soon dine in the Kingdom of Heaven."
Experts on religion in Europe said those faith-infused views are likely peculiar to the suspected gunman and do not appear reflect wider religious movements, even as they echoes grievances of Europe's right-wing political groups.
"He was a flaky extremist who might as well have claimed to be fighting for the honor of Hogwarts as for the cause of Christ," said Philip Jenkins, a Pennsylvania State University professor who studies global religion and politics, describing the suspected Norway attacker. "He did not represent a religious movement. ... People should not follow that Christian fundamentalist red herring."
At the same time, Breivik told investigators during interviews that he belongs to an international order, The Knights Templar, according to Norwegian newspaper VG, which cited unnamed sources.
He described the organization as an armed Christian order, fighting to rid the West of Islamic suppression, the newspaper said. He also told investigators he had been in contact with like-minded individuals and said he counts himself as a representative of this order, it said.
For many in Norway, the potential implications of the suspected killer's religion are still settling in.
"This is the first time we've heard of Christianity/religion as a driving force behind right-wing extremism," Buck said. "The mainstream right-wing movements in the Nordic countries (very small and disorganized groups in Norway) would generally point to the Old Norse beliefs, if anything."
"Norwegian, Nordic and European society," he said, "were totally unprepared for a violent attack from someone who calls himself Christian."
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
"My impression is that Christianity is used more as a vehicle to unjustly assign some religious moral weight," – The idea that this motivation, especially given the suspect's evoking of the Templar Knights and biblical passages in his "manifesto", is somehow separate from committing the acts directly in the name of Christianity – and thereby lending credence to the Christian Fundamentalist label – is ridiculous.
The two are one and the same. Organized religion, no matter the flavor, is a net-divider societies when devoted followers are not educated to see a higher value in tolerance.
The most intolerant of all societies has always been officially atheist nations. Pol Pot, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, and a dozen lesser known atheists were responsible for more than 250 million deaths in the past 100 years. Atheists in charge ALWAYS leads to denial of basic human rights and mass murder.
Buddy R- thank you for interjecting some history into this ridiculous discussion. Bravo!
Go ahead and "label" every whack-job who materializes as a left, right, christian, loaner, muslim, frog worshipper. Label your brains out. Labeling at the end of the day gets nothing done. Eventually it just proves that there are nuts to be found in every walk and belief in life. You are all about the business of labeling because you have an ax to grind with people you do not agree with. It in a nutshell is as hollow as a political attack using that nut job as your central argument that any belief that is not yours spawns nut jobs. This labeling business does not even get close to making good points like: Many people suffered needlessly because a mad man thought that he was going to prevent a change in society that he did not approve of. This could be stopped if nations would get more realistic about realizing that the nuts are not only muslims. Ask that guy who is buying so much fertilizer what he's really going to do with it. Have people who are behavior experts at the cash registers where the fertilizer is sold. Labeling people isn't getting anything constructive done. It just shows the ignorance, prejudice, and polarization of people who pride themselves on being intellectuals.
Damn this was good and right on!!!!
Unfortunately, he owned a farm, so purchasing fertilizer wouldn't be that big of a question. I believe I read that the purchase was questioned and reported. Not sure on this, but I do recall reading it somewhere.
You are so right about the labeling. The lessons of this tragedy should not be lost because we are distracted by 'us and them' arguing.
Has anyone watched Oral Roberts and listened to him puke out his manifesto of hate on TV every week? Oh and you might be interested to know that he is a FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN!
I haven't listened to Oral Roberts in years but I never heard him preach anything that sounds like hate. I have heard atheist evangelists such as Dawkins and Hitchens preach hate. In my opinion anti-theists just enjoy lying about religion.
I never cared much for Oral, I do not listen to the TV Christian Quacks. Only one come to mind as a fundemental Christian – Billy Graham, do you have a problem with Billy also? Some people never know when to retire, and they should. Oral Roberts is one of them. Hate mongering is not something we should do as Christians, but still be aware who is trying to kill us off.
Not so much since he died --> TV evangelist Oral Roberts dead at 91
See, I told you I did'nt watch him. I guess Oral did retire after all. Sorry Oral. 🙂
Oral Roberts?! That's the BEST example you can come up with? He's a prosperity teacher and most gospel teachers shake their heads at him in disgust. He's a fool in the truest form. I LOVE IT that you're opinion is based on the TV "evangelists" who are widely disregarded as gospel teachers in the Christian community. They are scam artists at best. This is the problem with the internet.
Norway Murderer – Professed Christian = Possible Actual Christian = No. The man may believe in the Christian God, but this one crazy person is not the typlical example of a Christian. The typlical example example of how a Christian should be is the the book of Acts – how we should act. Many Christian slammers here, trying to fuel more than what is here. One Crazy monster cannot represent all of Christianity, just as one Crazy Isalmist does not represent all of Islam. Christians send billions of dollars in aid to countries all over the world. They are huge supporters of feed my starving children, and many other donated services to save those who would surely die with out help.
You're right. One crazy christian can't represent all of christianity. But you know what can? How about the genocide of nearly all indigenous human beings in the americas and australia? How about chattel slavery? Oppression of women? The denial of civil rights to gays? Even the ridiculous drug war's roots can be traced to oppressive religious intolerance and racism. You prepared to claim all of that?
Know what's really super disgusting? That this "Christian" country throws out enough food in a day to feed the entire planet and sits back and collectively yawns while it "enjoys" the highest rate of child poverty in the industrialized world. You so-called "Christians" can suck it. You don't believe in your religion in the first place (except, of course, the parts that tell you to kill witches and gays). Like my 87 year old father who grew up during segregation always says – if this country were populated by Christians, the world would be a paradise.
A Christian Fundamentalist is someone who adheres to the core tenets of the Christian faith. A Muslim or Muslim fundamentalist is someone who adheres to the core tenants of Islam. An Islamofascist is someone who uses terror as a means to coerce or force change. Perhaps this guy should be called a Christofascist.
Well, Dave, since you are making up the words, then I guess you can define them any way you want!
Sorry, Dave. "Christian Fundamentalist" is a misnomer to begin with as Scripture (see, Jesus addresses the Pharisees) teaches against fundamentalism.
The truth is ever movement/religon has its nuts and extremist.... everything from christians, muslims, enviromental movement etc...
The environmental movement may be wacky sometimes, but there are in no way, shape or form a religion. From this lunatic's "manifesto": "But I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill." So, yes, he's a Christian Fundamentalist. And he's a Christian Terrorist like the kind we have here in America, you know, the Tea Party...
Many in the environmental movement do indeed worship "Gaia" or mother earth to the detriment of the human race.
Really environmentalism not a religion? Let’s see what we have here….
Each has a deity… “God” vs. “Mother Earth”
Each tell you that if you don’t change your ways that you are going to we are all going to die... ie. “destroy the planet.”
Each has a prophet/messenger… Jesus vs. Al Gore.
Each try very hard to control your life/how you live.... recycling, electric cars, light bulbs,
Truth is environmentalism is so close to Christianity it’s scary both just tries to scare the hell out of you and brainwash you into its way of viewing the world and its way of thinking
Call it what you wish: the biggest problems in the world today are caused by people who claim they are doing God's work. This is true of Muslims, Jews, and Christians alike. Extremism in the name of God is not helping make the world better.....
Actually, I would challenge your or anyone here to name a few RECENT attacks carried out by members of a CHRISTIAN terrorist ORGANIZATION. No, not a lone wolf like this guy or the abortion bomber "claiming Christianity", but a group where tens of thousands of folks sanction the terrorist acts of its members.
Stone: get off your high horse. Organization or not, people who kill others in the name of religion exist. You're trying to separate yourself from Muslims, when you should be trying to separate yourself from the terrorist.
And some of the greatest works are being carried out by those who are doing God's work. People have murdered in the name of religion and in the name of atheism. Killers will find their excuse in what ever is handt at the time.
guns and holy books are a bad mix
Allow me to explain the difference her for the dim bulbs on this board. You see, unlike muslims show blow people and things up, he is NOT, repeat, NOT, part of any organized religious group. The muslims who do these types of things, are sanctioned and supported by large, sometimes WORLD WIDE ORGANIZATIONS who do these things under the banner of a given faith. This guy is simply a nut, claiming to be a representative of a given religion, but is all alone, like the abortion bomber.
So please, don't bother trying to make the comparison between this, and something done by Al Queda, or any other nutty islamic group. Because though this is ONE nut, in their groups there are thousands, even milliions of nuts who are UNITED in their madness.
not all Christians are terrorists.
If there really were as many as you proclaim, the world would have been blown up. "We have unconfirmed reports of over 100,000 deaths in this town of 1200 people!"
In any case, extremism is extremism, and he had help. If muslims as a whole or majority were supporters of terrorism, why are the terrorists hiding in basements, remote camps, mountains, etc? 2+2=5 is false. Shouting it louder or angrier doesn't make it any less false.
"His links to Christianity are much more based on being against Islam and what he perceives of as 'cultural Marxism.'" is quite similar to "Al-Qaeda's links to Islam are much more based on being against Western values and what they perceive of religious pluralism"
I don't know where you are from, but here in America the Jerry Springer show only reflects a small percentage of Americans. Your propaganda doesn't move most of us. Most of us Americans have a lot of pride in our nation and in our patriotism we choose to use our brains to think beyond silly propaganda. What you are doing makes you as guilty as propaganda spreaders for AQ.
Settle down, all you rabid atheists... it ain't about religion. It was political. Misguided, heinous and stupid, yes. But this nut wasn't trying to start a holy war.
Yeah paint it however you like, The guy is a Christian terrorist even though the media will try to portray him like some insane "nut" as you put it. You're pathetic and the Western world is full of hypocrites
David, your comment is far too convenient. If you knew any true Muslims and true Christians you would quickly discover that a people 'of the Book' their world views are not much different. Violence has no place in either religion. If people want to blame religion for criminal behaviour – nobody can stop them but that does not make it true.
@SIGH.....again....he is a lone actor....maybe he had a helper or even two...time will tell....maybe the abortion bomber had someone help him.....some like to claim Mcveigh was a "Christian terrorist", and he had a couple of people help him.....but gain, there is a HUUUGE difference between one or two nuts doing something nutty, and a world-wide organization that has complete command structures, funding arms in place, training camps, and billions of dollars in yearly cash flow, as well as the low level support by powerful people world-wide.
No matter how you slice it, the guy was pretty much a lone nut, and I challenge you to name any large Christian terrorist organization to compare to Al Queda, etc. There are none, and we both know it. What you and others are doing, is taking this opportunity to take a swipe at Christians, who on the whole do more to feed and assist their fellow humans than any other group, and have NO terrorist organizations, not one.
No Christian terrorist organizations, eh?
How about the Manmasi National Christian Army and the National Liberation Front of Tripura, who force Hindus to convert at gun point and are known to encourage the murder of Hindu children?
How about The Army of God and other groups who kill doctors in the U.S. ?
What about white supremacist Christian terrorist groups like the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord?
You said: "not all Christians are terrorists."
But, all Christians are idiots and all terrorists are idiots. Therefore by association...
"An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid."
Guess atheists are very stupid..in certain ways of course...lol.
You never cease to amaze me. I think I would never be so stupid as to debate you.
You quoted Carl Sagan: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid."
Sagan was of course, talking about the inability to "prove" there is no god. And, Sagan is absolutely right. But consider:
No one can prove a negative. No one can prove absolutely that something does not exist. I cannot "prove" Santa does not exist. No one can.
But in life, we decide by a preponderance of the evidence, whether something exists or not. We determine, that there is no real evidence for a thing.
1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When I was 5, I believed in magic and things unseen. When I was 7, I gave up childish notions.
Childish beliefs should be abandoned by every adult, if they haven't done it earlier. Adults should be honest with themselves and look at the world, as it actually is.
We reject Santa Claus, because we know that there are children who don't receive any toys for Christmas. Kids of rich parents receive more and better toys than the poor kids. Carrying all those toys and sliding down chimneys is not believable. Reindeer don't fly. Saying Santa is magic doesn't satisfy us.
Santa doesn't fit in with how things really are. The jolly old elf, just isn't probable.
God is like Santa. He is a fictional being. He doesn't fit in, with how things work in the real-world.
Because believers want god to be real, they use selective observation, make excuses and hold onto expectations that are very,very unlikely:
Jesus has been dead for 2000+ years. He hasn't returned, in spite of predicting a 1st Century 2nd Coming;
All the born again believers will one day float up to heaven; When we die, our souls survive to be rewarded or punished. Like Santa, you will receive more or less gifts, depending on what the elf observes. So you better watch out. You better not pout... an invisible somebody is watching you all the time. LOL
Bad things happen to good people. Bad people often live long lives in the sun.
God is said to be all good, but there is so much suffering in the world.
God did horrible things in the Old Testament. Reality, calls His "all good" attribute into question.
Prayer does not work. Jesus made promises about prayer, that you can test. So test them! Ask for anything – A new car, world peace, that Jesus would appear to you... or, move a mountain.
Jesus promised you could ask for anything and He would give it to you. With only a little faith, He said you could move a mountain.
But, you know that is not true, in spite of what Jesus said.
When people pray, they are talking to themselves. When god starts talking to them, we start to worry. We believe it is a sign of mental illness.
There are no miracles. Miracles are just the product of coincidence and random chance. Or, deception and fraud.
Science can find no use for god. All the gaps in man's knowledge, that are filled by god, are being filled by scientific discoveries.
Evolution has dispelled the myth of creation. There is tons of evidence for Evolution. None for Creation.
If Adam and Eve did not exist, then there could not have been original sin.
If no original sin, then all the suffering humans and animals endure, could not be because of it.
If no original sin, then there is no need for a redeemer.
If no redeemer, then why is there Christianity?
So, there is no more evidence that there is a god, than there is for there being a Santa.
Your belief in god is based on faith. Faith in something does not make it true.
Faith and belief can never be a subst_itute for evidence. Believing that it can, is a delusion. Faith without evidence is worthless.
You don't believe in the ancient Greek gods do you? Of course you don't.
But if you did, Zeus would spring to life. Your faith and belief is what powers the gods.
Have faith and Aphrodite will answer your prayers – if she thinks it would be good for you and if it is her will – just like the Christian god. No difference!
Once, the Greek gods were prayed to, loved and feared. Believers strived to know and to obey their will. But now they lie silent, because no one believes...
If all the gods, that have come before the current batch of gods, are classified as myths, what evidence do you have that the gods now in vogue should not also be in that column?
No, little Lycidas, there is no god.
I claim there is no god, with the same confidence that I claim there is no Santa or Zeus, or Poseidon.
If extraordinary evidence surfaces, that the goddess Athena exists, I will embrace her, 'cause she looks hot!
Every adult should take this stand. God is just the Santa for adults. If belief were withdrawn, God would crumple to the ground, like a puppet whose strings were cut.
Ask yourself these two things:
If a one true god exists, why are there so many religions, with so many different gods? Wouldn't the one true god want everyone to know He exists? Wouldn't He be very obvious? But, He isn't obvious.
If there was a god, Would He not have written/inspired a bible that is not confusing? A bible that everyone would interpret the same way? That, everyone who read it, would know His wants without question? Yet, the bible we have is ambiguous.
An omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent Christian god, can do anything, except exist. For, it is impossible for any god to be all 3 at the same time. The attributes, are not compatible.
I cannot prove that unicorns, satyrs, fiery serpents or talking snakes, do not exist. But, using critical thinking, I rule these things out. I conclude that the chances of them existing are very, very unlikely. Just like a god.
Don't sell yourself short. You're one of the leading lights.
"No one can prove a negative."
Well of course not and for all your blabber you failed to understand this: you ahven't proved the alternative have you?
I will as.sume that you believe that God was created by man. Esp since you said, "He is a fictional being". Ok,....
Who created him?
How and based on what existing information?
Now plz offer up your citations and factual information. No leading the readers. You either have the facts to support your theory or you do not. I am guessing you do not.
Oh plz...I think the only ones that really push the omnibenevolent angle on here is atheists. You all ignore every single verse in the Tanakh that states he does have wrath, justice and anger.
I said: "No one can prove a negative."
To which you replied: "Well of course not and for all your blabber you failed to understand this: you ahven't proved the alternative have you?"
You missed the point. It is impossible to absolutely "prove" ANYTHING doesn't exist. But, in life, ANYTHING that does not provide evidence for its existence is judged to not exist. No evidence for the Easter Bunny? Then, the Easter Bunny is fake.
If I claim there are fairies living in my left shoe, it would be my burden to prove they do indeed exist. If I could not do so, you could rightly assume that the fairies do not exist. It would not be on you, to prove the fairies were imaginary. I am making the extraordinary claim. It is my burden to prove it is so.
Imagine how difficult life would be, without this "rule". We could never declare vampires or leprechauns or intelligent Christians to be imaginary. And we all know these things do not exist. LOL
You would not mind a bit, if I said Ra did not exist. You would agree, I bet. What about Allah? or the Hindu god(s)? Everyone is an atheist about most gods. You just don't like yours being included on the list of myths.
Although my personal belief is that no gods exist, you will notice I use the term "very unlikely" in my arguments.
You said: "I will as.sume that you believe that God was created by man."
Yes. The Hindu religion is the oldest religion. But each civilization developed their own gods. Man loves to create gods. They just don't create the same god. Which is a problem if you are claiming there is a one true god.
You asked: "Who created him?
Umm... Men? Or maybe elves in their workshop in the North Pole... but then that brings up the problem of who created the elves... *sigh*
You asked: "Where?"
In India. It flourishes even today. But again, each civilization developed their own gods. Can you deny this?
You asked: "Why?"
Ancient people (as is true today), feared death. Also they didn't understand the world around them. Life was scary.
A god comforted them. There was an afterlife. God was looking out for them. This god provided the answer to their questions: Why does it rain? God makes it rain. Why does the sun cross the sky? God drives the sun across the sky.
Natural disaster occurred. Diseases. Accidents. Why? Punishment from god (This is still a thought even in this day and age).
Why is god angry? And men sat down and decided their god's will, so He will not be angry.
You said: "Now plz offer up your citations and factual information. No leading the readers. You either have the facts to support your theory or you do not. I am guessing you do not.
Google "Worlds Oldest Religion". Google "How many religions in the world today"
Mythology – Gods and Goddesses An A-Z of the world's major deities
Oh plz...I think the only ones that really push the omnibenevolent angle on here is atheists. You all ignore every single verse in the Tanakh that states he does have wrath, justice and anger.
I don't ignore it. I don't think god is "all good". That is a Christian thing. But a "thing" that makes their god impossible to exist.
I John 4:8
King James Version (KJV)
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
"You missed the point. It is impossible to absolutely "prove" ANYTHING doesn't exist. But, in life, ANYTHING that does not provide evidence for its existence is judged to not exist. No evidence for the Easter Bunny? Then, the Easter Bunny is fake."
~No..I did not miss the point but you did. I never tried to prove that God exists but you implied that he was fictional. Therefor you must believe that someone created the notion of God. You must therefor think there is evidence for this idea that a man created the concept of God. I asked for you evidence....you have given none.
"I am making the extraordinary claim. It is my burden to prove it is so."
~And if anyone said they could prove _____ exists, then they should put up their info. However, if they don't make such a claim you can't put demands up. Unless you are being dishonest.
"Imagine how difficult life would be, without this "rule". We could never declare vampires or leprechauns or intelligent Christians to be imaginary. And we all know these things do not exist. LOL"
~Interesting angle on the straw man fallacy. You are lumping groups together to make fun a group you do not like. If you were being intellectually honest you would not do that.
"You would not mind a bit, if I said Ra did not exist. You would agree, I bet. What about Allah? or the Hindu god(s)? Everyone is an atheist about most gods. You just don't like yours being included on the list of myths."
~Must be fun to be a guesser. You don't have to prove anything, but throw stuff out. You see, you are getting two ideas mixed up. You as.sume that by not agreeing with another person's belief, I must not respect the faith of that person. You would be wrong. I do not believe in Ra, but I respect the ancients that did. Heck, I would honor their wishes today and expect archaeologists to do the same.
"Although my personal belief is that no gods exist, you will notice I use the term "very unlikely" in my arguments."
~Yes, because you have no evidence to the contrary and I don't mean proving the negative. You believe that the concept of God was created by man but you don't have any evidence to back that up do you? If you did, no doubt you would have told us who created the concept, when, where, how and why. But you can't. Under your own criteria, God being the creation of a man is highly unlikely.
"Yes. The Hindu religion is the oldest religion. But each civilization developed their own gods. Man loves to create gods. They just don't create the same god. Which is a problem if you are claiming there is a one true god."
~Interesting..in all that you just gave an opinion and no facts to support your "yes".
"You asked: "Who created him? Umm... Men?"
~Umm, prove it. Can you? Oh and keep on the main focus. It's always cute when atheists jump from one faith to another because certain aspects of their arguments work on some but not on others.
"You asked: "Where?" In India. It flourishes even today. But again, each civilization developed their own gods. Can you deny this?"
~I deny nothing because I did not ask about Hindu gods...this is your attempt at a bait and switch. If you will note, I said "God". Do you need to know which one I am referring? If you are a little slow I could be more specific.
"You asked: "Why?" Ancient people (as is true today), feared death. Also they didn't understand the world around them. Life was scary."
~Hmmm...no. Again you offer no evidence. But in the Prophets, one can find that the ppl were looking for justice and meaning from God.
"A god comforted them. There was an afterlife. God was looking out for them. This god provided the answer to their questions: Why does it rain? God makes it rain. Why does the sun cross the sky? God drives the sun across the sky."
~"Comforted"? not exactly. Try going through Amos and Jeremiah again.
Afterlife? I don't recall God telling Moses to tell the ppl aout any afterlife.
Sun....rain?? I think you have the message of God mixed up with your own limited and uneducated notions.
"Natural disaster occurred. Diseases. Accidents. Why? Punishment from god (This is still a thought even in this day and age)."
~Perhaps it is still a thought but it's not exactly scripturally sound. Look at Job for an example. Again, I think you are talking out of your a** on this and making grand as.sumptions.
"Why is god angry? And men sat down and decided their god's will, so He will not be angry."
~Still no evidence for your thoughts. I find your idea very unlikely.
"You said: "Now plz offer up your citations and factual information. No leading the readers. You either have the facts to support your theory or you do not. I am guessing you do not. Google "Worlds Oldest Religion". Google "How many religions in the world today" "
~And......what? Nothing. I am sorry but your answers on your notion is lacking a lot. For someone that went on and one about not tryig to prove the negative...you seem to be trying a sideways attempt. In all you have brought up, you have offered no actual information to support your ideas.
"I don't ignore it. I don't think god is "all good". That is a Christian thing. But a "thing" that makes their god impossible to exist."
~It is not a Christian thing at all. Oh boy..good ol I John. Atheists love bringing it up and yet don't understand it at all.
"for God is love."
I don't see the "omni" aspect in that..do you? For those that don't know..."love" in this verse comes from the word agapē that means, affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love...but nothing "omni" about it.
Folks, this guy was no more a true Christian than Bin Laden was a true Muslim. He was just a nut-case, that's all. Leave religion out of it and go back to sleep!
Well said, he's a nut.
Though criticized for it at the time, I believe our president aptly spoke for many of us when he described this population as "people who cling to their relgion and guns."
Christians and Muslims believe in a whole host silly, supernatural stories whether this guy was a Christian, a Muslim or an atheist. They did so before he acted and they will do so after he acted. They will continue to believe they have the "one true faith" and a monopoly on the truth, wistfully ignoring the fact that their faith depends solely on where they were born. Nothing that happened in Norway will change that.
Self-delusion is the hardest falsehood to crack – you have to convince both the deceived and the deceiver they are wrong.
What delusions are you under Colin?
I am under a few delusions, Lycidus. I am under the delusion; (i) that there is no invisible man in the sky watching my every move and reading my mind; (ii) that I will not survive my own physical death and live happily ever after in Heaven; (ii) that the World was not created 6,000 years ago with a man, a woman and a talking snake; and (iv) that there is an evil devil that spend an eterni.ty trying to tempt me and other humans to his dugeon of doom.
I'm sure I look downright nutty to you theists.
"(i) that there is no invisible man in the sky watching my every move and reading my mind; "
~Thank goodness because no one on here has ever said they believed in a invisible man in the sky
"(ii) that I will not survive my own physical death and live happily ever after in Heaven; "
~No, some think you will be reborn or burn in hell or heck, you might be the first ever immortal human ever! Won't know till you die after all.
"(iii) that the World was not created 6,000 years ago with a man, a woman and a talking snake;"
~That's good...I don't anyone that believes in that either.
"(iv) that there is an evil devil that spend an eterni.ty trying to tempt me and other humans to his dugeon of doom."
~well...not for eternity....no one ever said that either
"I'm sure I look downright nutty to you theists."
~Who is a theist? I'm just a person asking you questions. But since you asked, you probably look nutty to those of any fairh or lack thereof....you had something wrong in every single statement you uttered.
Calling this guy a "Christian Fundamentalist" is as NUTS as NUTS gets. I have vaporlock that you people are ALLOWED to pass yourself off as journalists. Do you UNDERSTAND the beliefs of a Christian, Jew, Muslim or Hindu? EVERYTHING you do is agenda driven, with an axe to grind and political profit to be made no matter the tragedy. NOTHING this guy did could REMOTELY be associated with any faith other than WACJOBISM. You CNN guys make Goebbles look grounded.
Hey "Reality", I think your list of atrocities is called for here.
I think the murderer labels himself as Chrtistian.
Funny how there's a massive effort in this article (and elsewhere) to differentiate this self identified fundy Christian from Christianity and yet when it's reich-wing nutcases that are Muslim, it gets coflated with all "Muslims" in popular thought.
Here's the deal: Right wingnuts across all religions and cultures, from fundie American republican anti-abortion freaks to racist teahadists, to racist europeans, neo-nazi's to Muslim jihadists have more in COMMON with each other than they'd ever care to admit.
The manner, dress, and cultural overlay may differ but the basic fear-driven approach to politics and their sureness that they are right (like a murderous Crusader) is the same. Also they fear-hate multiculturalism, often deny science and fear/hate the modern world in general.
The jihadist from abroad will NEVER bring down any society, but the jihadists or teahadists within will do so.... Indeed, their is a strange symbiosis between the right wingnuts: The more one commits terror to the other society, like the 9-11 jihadists, the more they fuel a far right and stupid general response in the other siciety (America attacks unrelated Iraq, bankrupting us, while Bush still took care of the rich tax cuts)
For a better understanding of the shooting in Oslo that killed more than 90 people we are hereby listing two excerpts from the Current Events page of our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca.
What motivated the Arizona shooter?
Going further down this page you can learn more about an incident that took place on November 5, 2009, in Fort Hood, Texas, when an army psychiatrist went on a rampage and killed 13 people and wounded 30 others. It doesn’t seem that long ago. For weeks the media talked about the incident and raised the question what motivated the shooter to do these things. For weeks they interviewed psychiatrists, psychologists, mental health specialists, doctors, professors, etc., etc and tried to come up with answers why a person could do such a thing.
But there were no answers and for this reason we addressed the issue on this website in the hope that people would come to know the natural spirit that controls and motivates every man, woman and child.
Since the shooting in Arizona, where six people were killed, the media again conducted numerous interviews and asked the same questions of people who gave answers with worldly wisdom (1 Cor. 2:4-7) and once again there were no answers. Ten days after the incident a CNN reporter still asked the question: What motivated this young man?
It should be noted that on the day of the shooting in Arizona there were twenty seven people killed in Acapulco, Mexico. Fourteen bodies that were found had been decapitated. A week later over six hundred people died in Brazil in mud slides and there was flooding in the Philippines and Sri Lanka. At the same time an area the size of France and Germany was under water in Australia. The media in fact refers to it as being of biblical proportions and little do they know that it is. For a better understanding we invite you to read the article Julia Gillard ~ Prime Minister of Australia on this website
Please remember that every time there is a shooting in the USA that results in the killing of people, gun sales go up at a dramatic rate. When you live in a country where almost everybody carries a gun, people should not be surprised when they are occasionally used by people who have the wrong intentions. The shooting in Arizona will not be the last one. While the media is still trying to determine what made Jerad Loughner pull the trigger in Tucson, two police officers were killed while on duty in Miami on January 20, 2011, and not a word was hardly even mentioned.
As the media continues to ask the questions: Why – What – Where – When – How on just about every issue, the answers are very simple.
The Word of God is a discerner of all things (Hebrews 4:12) and the answer to every question can be found in the Bible. For this reason we invite all readers to study all of the pages and articles of this website that they may come to the acknowledging of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). When they do, God will open their eyes and ears, that they may see and hear and come to the understanding that all things are spiritual (1 Cor. 2:15; 1 Cor. 15:44). They will also come to know that we indeed are living in a time of the history of mankind – as it was in the days of Noah described in Matthew 24:37-39.
Fort Hood, Texas Shootings and other News Items of this past week
Once again we heard the big question on the news wire; Why, Why would an army psychiatrist go on a rampage and kill 13 people and wound 30 others? Less than a week later the media reported how a man along with four sons had been charged after a woman told investigators how she and other siblings had been s_exually abused in a way that is even unthinkable to imagine. Three of those charged were even lay ministers in the Community of Christ church. The media also reported this morning that over 200 million children under the age of 5 are starving and that every six seconds a child dies from hunger.
By reading all of the pages and articles of our website (www.aworlddeceived.ca) you no longer have to walk in darkness as it will give you answers to all of the above and explain the spirit of mankind.
By reading just a few recent news items like the ones above, it should be clear in the minds of most people that this is not God's Kingdom the religions of this world speak of. So, whose Kingdom is this – where there are wars, pestilences, diseases, hunger and starvation and where people do things that are unimaginable? And what about God's plan for mankind and His Kingdom, where does this God fit into all this?
Once again and as mentioned before, our website (www.aworlddeceived.ca) will serve as a guide how anyone can come to know the true and living God that turns to Him in truth. Through the journey of repentance He will open your eyes and provide you with answers, not only to the above questions but also any questions you may have had in the past. Above all He will reveal Himself to you and show how this whole world has been deceived (Rev. 12:9).
What you say is creepy, AVDBERG.
Creepy but proven to be true!
"How on just about every issue, the answers are very simple."
-- THAT is one of the very interesting characteristics of you folks. In these events and situations you mention and attempt to provide analysis for, undoubtedly there are multiple and complex motivations and precursors. You NEED to simplify it all into a neat little box tied up with a pretty little bow. The answers are NOT simple, and the assumption that they are becomes more a part of the problem, than it does to become a part of the solution. We are not still in second grade, even though you, kicking and screaming, attempt to keep us so.
-- This is another example of my prior assertions, that this stuff is not about religion, or scripture or theology or philosophy, but about ("anal-retentive"?) psychology. If it's not all "simple", all neatly referenced in their safe little
book, with no other explanations allowed, they just can't deal with it.
It is all very simple. Things are either darkness or light or 'yes' or 'no' (James 5;12). You walk in darkness and are spiritually blind and for this reason do we preach repentance: Ye must repent and turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan (whose spirit you are of) unto God. The world you live in is Satan's Kingdom (Matthew 12:25-27).
The truth is any christian who holds the idea that there will be a great awaking of people turning to christianity,or any who believe war should be waged,or violence used to bring about a mass conversion to christianity is in grave,gross error of what the Bible truly teaches. So christians doctrinal correct christians are on no such mission. The Bible says,the way is narrow,the number is few,those comments were made of the way to heaven,and the number that would make it. Moreover it speaker of a departure from the faith of many,and if you look at what gone on in the last 15 years you'll see just that.
A perfection of pontifical profusive words that consists of meaningless sentences and mean nothing.
No, BHASKY, people don't go on killing sprees like that if they are just jobless and depressed. The guy is seriously mixed-up. You really need to get past this religious stuff. It was just a mental crutch enabling him to deal with his delusions.
This man is NOT A MUSLIM! MUSLIMS DON'T COMMIT MASS MURDER! This individual committed a crime. To call him a Muslim is an insult to Muslims. THE MEDIA NEEDS TO STOP STEREOTYPING - ...wait...did you say he was a CHRISTIAN?!?!!
Evangelicals are not Christian , they are actually anti-christian and spreaders of hate. The real Christians are The One Holy Catholic Church which was started by Christ and down thru the ages from the Apostle's and today to the Vicar the Pope His Holiness Benedict XV1. Remember judge not let you be judged. The Souhern Baptist's came from the follower's of the KKK who are all WASP's and haters of the true God. I hate no Christian, just the pretenders under the evil cloak of evangelical. God Bless!!
True Gerry, at least to the last part. The Southerm Baptists are seriously compromised and carry the trappings of Christianity but their politics and leaders racism and intolerence has led them to be something quite un-Christian, if not quite the KKK without the sheets.
U r moron, that catholic church is the most evil cult on the planet, and christ did not start the catholic church, jesus told his followers to pray to god not some to pray to and ask forgiviness from a woman.
Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church. Jesus encouraged sinners to confess directly to God – not to an intercessor such as is the practice of the Catholic Church. He abhorred penance – asking for forgiveness is all that is required. Reading the gospels might be in order before interpreting them.
There are evangelical radicals – yes and there are Catholic radicals, and neither are following the gospels.
I am a Christian without being an evangelical or a Catholic – and so are millions more.
You are seriously confused. The Baptists were around long before the KKK. I know fact are irrelevant to those who just want to hate others. The Catholic church has had it fair share of spreading evil. Check out what they did to the French Huguenots for one example. The beliefs of Baptists and Catholics are pretty similiar once you get past the ritualsitic aspects in Catholicism. I am neither Baptist or Catholic but both of these organizations feed and clothe millions of needy people through their good works.
This is what the atheists love to see. Division among Christians. Gerry, where do you see in the Bible that Jesus started the Catholic church? Hmmmm. It's not in there! Keep in mind that I said in the Bible? Also, nice you are able to judge others and damn them to hell.
Fact: Evangelicalism is a Protestant Christian movement which began in Great Britain in the 1730s.
So, the Evangelicals are actually late comers. God had to do without a church for 1700 years. Hmm...
The Catholics trace their religion all the way back to Christ and the first Pope, Peter. I respect that. Doesn't make me a believer, but Catholicism would be the religion I would embrace if I were to ever believe.
Here again, fundies claim the "rock" Jesus was talking about, was Jesus Himself and not Peter. But, that is an interpretation born of desperation. If you read the literal words, there is only one conclusion. Peter was the rock upon which Christ would build his church.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
What Christians don't do bad things? How about Ireland a few years back! The terrorists on both sides were Christians! Hitler was a Christian. How many people died at the hands of good Christians during the Inquisition! Just because this nut case did bad things doesn't mean he wasn't a Christian! It just means he's human with all their inherent flaws!
Hitler publicly professed to be a Christian but in his private conversations he professed his hatred for Christianity and for religion in general. He was an anti-theist.
Hitler mentioned God and Jesus hundreds of times in his speeches at Nazi rallies. German churches, both Protestant and Catholic were filled to the brim during the 30s and 40s. Christianity made the ground for Nazism very fertile, the Germans would have never become Nazis if they weren't Christian to begin with. Hitler never professed hatred for Christianity, he thought Jesus was a real "Aryan" and that the Jews had to be punished for allegedly killing him. Christian dogma and doctrine were also used to justify the transatlantic slave trade. It's just an evil, immoral, religion, like most are.
Hitler professed some ties to Christianity in his early days, but by the time he he slaughtered millions of Jews, Catholics and other groups he had completely rejected Christianity as a religion for fools. It must have been those verses about loving your neighbor as yourself.