Sect leader warns of 'death' to 'those who prosecute the church'
July 30th, 2011
09:20 PM ET

Sect leader warns of 'death' to 'those who prosecute the church'

By the CNN Wire Staff

San Angelo, Texas (CNN) - A Texas judge warned Warren Jeffs against calling "for the jury's destruction" shortly after the polygamous sect leader said Friday during his sexual assault trial that those who prosecuted his church would face "sickness and death."

The comments that precipitated the warning to Jeffs, who has been granted the right to represent himself, occurred around midday after Judge Barbara Walther had sent the jury out of the San Angelo courtroom.

"I, the Lord God of heaven, ask the courts to cease the prosecution of my holy ways," Jeffs said. "There will be a judgment against all those who prosecute the church. ... I shall let all people know of your unjust ways. I will bring sickness and death. Let this cease."

Walther then told him that "if you call for the jury's destruction" while the jury - who will decide if Jeffs is guilty on two counts of sexual assault on a child - is present, "you will be removed from the courtroom."

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soundoff (114 Responses)
  1. Alink

    the main thing that you want to know when applying for any ciredt card is the annual percentage rate (APR). The lower the better. You also want to know if the APR is introductory what is the rate after that. It might be 6% to start then go up to 28%. You dont want that. As long as you pay on time then you will help improve your ciredt. I hope this helps.

    August 1, 2012 at 5:55 am |
  2. JFritz

    Why does Utah get a pass on bigamy? Yeah, I know, it's illegal there too, wink, wink. Where's the Rapture when you need it? Take him awaaaaaaay . . .

    September 15, 2011 at 1:21 am |
    • Clay

      For some reason I doubt he'll get raptured...
      Christ will come to take his Church, not every psychotic cult that claims it's working in God's Name.
      ... Wait, where did your comment come from? There's nothing in this article that points to this being a 'christian' cult. By God he could mean anything. Probably some statue in his living room...

      September 19, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • Dan W.

      Because the US promised Utah much more of the Western United States than it actually got. On Capitol Hill in Salt Lake City they have a map of the land that was promised which included parts of Cuba and South America. So although they are technically a state, they are a renegade state that resents US politics and doesn't trust the federal government to keep it's word. That's why the State Senate is virtually 100% mormon and so are the federal judges that serve in that state. They keep everyone out of their business by pretending to follow our rules while burning ballots that would vote them out of power.

      September 20, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • Dan W.

      Clay, he's Mormon which is a sect of Christianity. Even the Republicans are trying to bring Mormonism under the unified Christian banner. He's just a Mormon leader. The reason they call it a Cult is that the mormon church no longer officially recognizes this sect of mormonism.

      September 20, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • Tian

      439I can agree with this, and while I agree with Hoffman that Gnu Atheism has much that is not right about it, I think a robust nhinoetsm of today, not just a cultic one, can and should incorporate more of the sciences, as well as literature and the arts, than did the atheism of, say, d'Holbach, arguably the original Gnu. Per the superfluousness, I am reminded again of Laplace to Napoleon: I have no need for that hypothesis. And, while I would not call him, unlike d'Holbach, a progenitor of Gnu Atheism, I would note that he was a scientist.So, I'd ask Hoffman not to throw out the baby with the bathwater just because most Gnus base their anti-theism primarily on scientific grounds. Rather, let's all hope that a humanistic AND scientific secularism can arise based on healthy doses of both classical and modern humanism plus modern scientific learning, including modern neuroscience. Why shouldn't we celebrate how science is informing philosophy today?21

      July 29, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
  3. Montana

    This has been going on too long, it’s a good start but our law enforcement has a long way to go.

    When I was a kid I lived in Utah, and the Boy Scouts was taken over by Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church). This, so called religion, practices underage polygamy, they send the boy s off on missions to divide the underage sisters among the dirty old men of the clan. Now when these underage girls get pregnant, these same dirty old men, send them to the state to get their welfare checks . You should see some of the palace homes that are paid with welfare checks. By the way this is the newest religion that was created right here in United States of America.

    When someone hides behind religion to do or say something that is wrong we should stand up and point it out (right the wrong).


    August 25, 2011 at 10:42 pm |
  4. Geddy

    Same Texas where the Branch Davidians were shot, then burned alive? He best be careful, those Texans know how to start a fire, real good.

    August 3, 2011 at 11:55 pm |
  5. ekralcmot

    cuckoo cuckoo

    August 3, 2011 at 10:09 am |
  6. Hanna

    The FLDS community doesn't know what Jeffs has been doing behind his royal doors. If they question him- they get kicked out loosing their wife and children. Most the guys i know there- don't dare think Jeffs would do wrong. Brainwashed and Cult.

    August 2, 2011 at 12:59 am |
  7. AvdBerg

    Make no mistake, gay Jesus will return. Go to our website to learn more http://www.gaychristian101.com

    August 1, 2011 at 1:37 pm |
  8. Doc Vestibule

    You never know when these types of threats will pay off!
    For example, archaeologists have found evidence of early Christians living in Pompeii as slaves during the eruption of Vesuvius.
    In the town centre, a graffitti artist scribbled "Sodom and Gomorrah" on the wall – an obviously Judeo-Christian reference to the divine wrath meted out to debauched towns by the Abrahamic God.
    Scholars conjecture that this seemingly fulfilled prophecy of divine punishment went a long way to convince the Roman people of the power of the Jewish God.

    Maybe is some of Jeff's detractors are buried in molten lava, he'll gain some converts.

    August 1, 2011 at 9:02 am |
    • supamonkey

      Proof please,

      From what I've read of the early Christians, they were formed mostly from the Jewish communities around the Roman Empire. And the actual persecution of those communities only started after 98AD when these communities were defined as distinct from other Jewish communities protected by the Pax Romana , by Nerva.

      August 3, 2011 at 8:52 pm |
  9. Rev. Rick

    Place him in solitary confinement. If God comes to free him, then let him go. If not, he stays until "his" God shows up.

    August 1, 2011 at 7:53 am |
    • WASP

      LMAO. I AGREE.

      August 1, 2012 at 6:14 am |
  10. Slumberjack

    I can't imagine the ungodly stench of the altar and surrounding area after successive generations of burning all manner of livestock as sacrificial offerings the way it is described in the old testament, just as i can't imagine what had to be a powerful odor coming from the Levites who presided over these continuous and raging bonfires. Has anyone actually attempted to fathom the size of the sacrificial herds that would be required, based on today's populations, in order to fulfill those sacrificial commands written in the scriptures? The skylines across the entire levant must have been covered with black bbq smoke if we take any of it seriously.

    August 1, 2011 at 6:18 am |
    • True Freedom

      Stupid atheists never clean anything, so they have no idea on aroma.

      August 1, 2011 at 7:04 am |
    • Free

      True Freedom
      I think we can still tell by the smell when something is rotten in church, no matter how much incense you burn to try covering it up.

      August 2, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
  11. stubbycat

    My dirty smelly shoes are holier than the ignorant unholy man who powerlessly calls for the destruction of the court. This is just another example of arrogant unholy attempting itself to sit in the seat of the holy trying to intimidate those who fearlessly and justly oppose its lawlessness.

    August 1, 2011 at 12:21 am |
  12. FaithScent

    Mormons should read the Bible. Ignorance on the Word of God brings all kinds of errors.

    July 31, 2011 at 11:51 pm |
    • 3rd Tyrant

      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Please try to stay on topic, adult onset ADD poster child.

      August 1, 2011 at 5:06 pm |
  13. FaithScent

    According to the Bible, this guy goes to hell because he abused children. He should repent and stop cursing the justice.

    July 31, 2011 at 11:50 pm |
  14. Reality

    So why do we really care what a 21st century nut-case like Jeffs or a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, a-mouldering in the ground, preacher man would do or say?

    July 31, 2011 at 11:44 pm |
  15. James price

    warren jeffs and faithscent(smell) are both just batcrap crazy

    July 31, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • True Freedom

      Stalin, Mao, Kim, Pol Pot are the same with the American atheists in bullying Christians.

      July 31, 2011 at 11:57 pm |
    • Free

      True Freedom
      Difference is, we ironically end up fighting for everyone's religious and social freedom. These dictators did not. They were elitists, and anti-democratic. The average American atheist is as freedom-loving as the next guy, and it can be argued that we are even more freedom-loving than some Christians, the ones who wish to place another authority, the Bible, above that of the const.itution. Communists were anti-religion because of their rival power over people. Many Christians seem to share this in their "it's a relationship, and not a religion."

      August 1, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • Civiloutside

      I don't know that I'd call Adelina/Bonnie/et al crazy. It's easy to get that impression given how so much of what she posts seems rooted in knee-jerk hatred and gross distortion/misunderstanding of history. But it's also evident that she has at some point she and/or people close to her have suffered at the hands of people who claim an atheistic worldview. It's sad and somewhat pitiable that she has generalized her resentment toward them into a sense of persecution by all atheists everywhere, but I'm pretty sure the mockery that gets doled out does little to combat the persecution complex.

      It is, of course, necessary to combat the factual inaccuracies of her posts. But in light of the brokenness exhibited, I think the more appropriate emotional response is compassion for what she appears to have suffered rather than derision for the damaged reaction she has made to it.

      Everyone send her a hug!

      And Adelina, a bit of friendly advice. Please pick a name and stick with it. I know some immature sorts have hijacked your handles in the past, but switching constantly just creates more temptation to those sorts of people to mock you. Especially when you keep coming back to each and every handle to defend it from the "fakes." If you won't keep a handle as your own, there's very little reason for anyone to respect your claims on dozens.


      August 1, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Magic


      You are very kind re: Adelina/True Freedom/etc. I hope that she reads it.

      Yes, she has obviously been traumatized, but she doesn't realize that she - and her "God" - are every bit the tyrant and dictator that she so abhors. It's, "My way or suffer and die" - in this case for eternity.

      I just hope that the only thing she runs is her own household - and that it consists of only herself. I shudder to think of her as an employer or parent.

      August 1, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
  16. Terry

    Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults practice *love bombing* a tactic to indoctrinate new recruits into believing the wackiest absurdity,like JW with their 1914 'invisible return for Jesus' dogma.

    Jeannie Mills, survivor of the Jonestown Massacre, said, "When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true!"
    Don't be lured into an apocalyptic cult!

    July 31, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • Free

      Heaven and the promise of eternal life are too good to be true as well.

      July 31, 2011 at 11:24 pm |
    • fred

      Not so fast, you need to take the entre Word into perspective. You and I cant make it heaven and those that try not only need to contend with normal human suffering we now have the darkside arrayed against us. The hard part of the Bible is to figure out ....so what exactly is a man to do if we dont get in based on our effort?

      July 31, 2011 at 11:54 pm |
    • Free

      I was brought up Catholic so I appreciate the work ethic link to heaven, but there are folks who seem to believe that the label 'saved' is like some 'Get out of Hell free" card and, worse, licence to judge and speak of whom God WILL deny access. I no longer believe in it all, but I still think that it is elitist and completely unfair to all other Christians.

      A man, I was taught, does his best to make amends to those he hurts, and to ask their forgiveness. Many of the 'born agains' don't seem to emphasize the need for this much, citing that they only need to ask God's forgiveness. I see that as cowardly.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
    • fred

      The work link is still there but, it comes from a different direction. As James said faith without works is dead. Born Agains’ don't work to get into heaven but work because they have seen the light. So it is because we were saved or Christ in us that does the works.
      Back to getting into heaven. Entry is based on what Jesus did and we get in because we are in him. This I can understand because God is perfectly holy and we have a spot or spots on us so how can we ever get into that perfect place and that place remain perfect. As in the original garden we touched the tree of good and evil , and or disobeyed a direct order from God. Once you have seen that side you can never un-see it thus can never have relationship with perfect holiness.
      Being in Christ, dying to Christ by simple belief in Christ, acknowledging sin and asking for forgiveness could mean a great deal of work for some but it is not works. Just how to die in Christ was confusing until I see the old "sin" self dying off. What may well get to heaven will not be the old me but that which is left in Christ.

      August 1, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
    • Free

      Oh, I understand how Luther's idea is supposed to work, but all I'm saying is that many Protestants get fixated on the idea that they are somehow 'cured' of doing wrong after being saved. Than they seem to imagine that if they interpret the bible as meaning something then it must automatically be the one true meaning of the scripture, and that they imagine their behavior is biblical then it must be. Call it arrogance, I suppose.

      Luther always reminded me of the neurotic overachiever who would consider any SAT score a hair off perfect, or even a skipped pasting project in kindergarten as the ruination of his entire life.

      August 1, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • fred

      You were right the first time we talked, some of us need God, Luther perhaps more than others. I can see where Luther needed a powerful God that covers all, one that you can rely on and not just another human Priest that is fallible. Why Saul of Tarsus, he was the opposite with no apparent need for God yet totally transformed. Could it have been that thorn in his side? Then the other 12 apostles were not the crème of the crop initially and each had some serious issues, fear, cowardice, anger, untrusting, tax collectors. They did not transform until after the resurrection and spontaneously developed backbones (proof of evolution in the bible). These transformations / conversion experiences still occur today and are need based. Given a surge in church attendence after 911 only lasted a short time suffering must be personal to be of lastng character change.

      August 1, 2011 at 7:12 pm |
    • Free

      Well, some people do need something to transform their lives, but for every Christian with a 'saved' story there is a youth who elevated themselves through sports, a cancer survivor who found the will to live through their children, an elderly person who found new purpose in their lives through volunteering in a daycare, and a thousand other ways. I won't argue that religion doesn't work for some, only that it's not the only way, and that it can bring a lot of harmful baggage with it. How beneficial is an alcoholic who turns their life around, but then chooses to stop talking to their daughter over her being gay, or a monk like Luther who sinks into becoming arguably one of the most antisemitic individuals ever? Some find their purpose in the Church, but unfortunately, that purpose turns out to being a judgemental jerk to all around them.

      Paul's 'thorn' could have been many things including skepticism, a tumor on his brain, or even, like Ted Haggard, a lingering gayness. Maybe he never stopped persecuting the first Christians, who were Jews after all? He brought the faith to we unclean gentiles, after all.

      Church attendance surges after disasters and during hard times. Alcohol abuse also rises under the exact same conditions, and likely for the same reason. Ask yourself how many people turn to God because they don't that the strength to cope with their own problems, like an alcoholic? Under those conditions isn't He just a crutch for those unwilling to accept responsibility for their own lives? "It's all too much for me! Save me Daddy! Jesus, take the wheel!" Just grown people wanting to be children again. How very sad!

      August 2, 2011 at 12:35 am |
    • fred

      As to Luther becoming an anti-Semite after conversion I see Jesus addressed this so it must be common. It was in the verse where the demon returns with seven more and the condition of this man is worse than before he "found religion ". The key to the verse (matt 12:43-45) is the new house was empty. If one does not fill the void and keep that void filled with the Holy Spirit that old nature returns and like Luther the Hitler rant on Jews was a convenient target who many embraced. He did hate himself before and people often hate their own worse qualities when they see it in someone else. Not sure Judgmental behavior comes after conversion or if it was there all along. I have not seen statistics as to judgmental behavior in Christians verses non Christians. It is probably like when you buy that new car suddenly you see that car everywhere and before you never noticed. So you get converted and read all this stuff on drunkenness, immorality etc so you are now aware of it in yourself and others. Awareness of being judgmental verses discerning takes some introspection and work to get to the root of the problem. My thought is it has to do with low self esteem or beating yourself up ….this requires one to find others worse than they are to bring about some relief or a momentary victory over a weaker one. Cause to strut your feathers on an otherwise gloomy day.

      August 2, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • Free

      Christians disown Hitler for being antisemitic and for leading Germans against the Jews, but how many disown Luther for doing the same? Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you can't do evil things against people in the name of Christ, right?
      Christians treated Jews terribly, owned slaves, fought holy wars against Muslims, tortured heretics, burned people for witchcraft, and a host of other atrocities not because they wanted to do evil, but because they honestly thought they were doing what they thought Christ wanted. Today's Christians are just as sure that they are doing what He wants, and many of we atheists are just pointing out how they are still causing evils in his name. Remember the old saying about what the road to Hell is paved with!

      August 2, 2011 at 11:54 pm |
    • fred

      How did you do that? You replied to my post before I posted it (check the post date and times).
      Makes ya think twice about that quote in the bible where the sun moved backwards

      August 3, 2011 at 12:11 am |
    • fred

      You are making a believer out of me. Jesus said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" "what you do unto the least of these you do onto me". Whenever I think about what was done to Jesus by man (all walks) there is little doubt what we are made of. Can you think of a more perfect representation of what we are capable of, can you think of a more perfect characterization of what sin looks like to a holy God?
      Sometimes it is as if all the stuff Jesus slammed the religious leaders of his day for doing we turn right around and do the same only this time as Christians instead of Sanhedrin.

      August 3, 2011 at 12:35 am |
    • Free

      Oh, some of the work of modern-day torturers and serial killers make what Jesus went through look pretty tame, and you realize, of course, that the average Roman crucifixion took days of slow dehydration, agony, with animals and birds picking at your flesh? Jesus didn't last a full day. Either he was rather whimpy compared to his peers, which I doubt even though he took several years off his labor job to preach, or he actually did last much longer, but the gospel writers shortened it to fit prophecy. Which do you think?

      August 3, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
    • fred

      The timeline fits with the exact time the Jews were preping their passover lamb. Now this was God in action or the writers making the puzzle fit. To this point I have no cause to not believe so I go with God / Divine Word. Those last moments have literal and figurative elements to which people have written books about.
      Key words I yield up my Spirit. So it was Jesus that said it is finished and pulled the plug, my guess is his timing would be purposeful as everything else he said and did so the writer did not make it up.

      August 3, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • Free

      Oh, by mentioning another possibility rather than God acting you have revealed a cause not to believe, but you choose to anyway, right? One can either accept the biblical narrative or reject it under reasonable doubt. In any court of law this would fail to make a believer out of anyone. I suspect that most who would reject the literal truth of the bible will base their conclusion on the evidence, whereas those who accept it's literal truth will do so out of emotion, which is why family members and friends are excluded from juries. When taking in all the evidence and scholarly work that has been done it is just too easy to accept that the scriptures were likely written after events, and in some cases even created events to fit prophecy and other expectations.

      However, if you are implying that Jesus was in control of the entire passion then that opens up the entire debate as to whether Judas, Ciaphias, Pilate, Peter or any of the other players were acting out of free will.

      August 4, 2011 at 12:05 am |
    • fred

      Perhaps I should restate and say I can see where one might conclude parts of the Bible were put together after the fact to make the parts fit. I also cut Isaiah some slack when the prophecies seem va-gue on the bases of where he was at the time. Those parts of the Bible that don’t make sense I convince myself that I just don’t understand it then hang onto Deuteronomy 29:29 (only things revealed belong to us). Let there be no doubt I struggle with complete faith a lot and often get lost in taking parts of the Bible as allegory, metaphor or worse yet taking things out of context. I keep coming back however. Having led many a recovery group on various addictions allowed me see a steady flow of transformed lives. On a personal note I hang onto key times when extraordinary occurrences brought about events which I attribute to God and give thanks for. I actually have a routine where step by step I retrace all the miraculous things God has done personally until I am again in a state of heart where I am truly thankful and ready to give God the Glory He deserves. Historians and other scholars may look at my life and say God didn’t do that he did it himself or simply attributed natural occurrences to God and made it fit his own understanding of grace and mercy. Perhaps it is as simple as saying that little bit of Luther in me needs a savior just to make it through the day.
      As to the pas-sion, when one outside of time and space orchestrates an event free will exists only in the plane in which it is viewed. I love it when Jesus said things are not as they appear

      August 4, 2011 at 2:18 am |
    • Free

      There is, of course, a big difference between believing that God is acting in your life and that actually being the case, right? From your point of view you probably believe that God can act in somebody's life without them being aware of it, but from my point of view I believe that somebody could be unaware that God actually isn't acting in their lives at all.

      August 4, 2011 at 11:58 pm |
    • fred

      Oh oh, sounds like a trick question. Unfortunately, in my case I have proceeded and patted myself on the back for being a great servant acting in the will of God only to find that I was very much off track in my actions. Armed with my new revelations from God I discovered my error attempted some correction then prayed God would clean up the mess I just made. Yes, I believed God was and is involved in all three. The blunders were mine and I cannot fault God for not putting my head on straight sooner. A bit fearful that perhaps my new revelations may also be latter found wanting I move forward still confident God will continue to clean up my mess. Net result is I pray a lot more when I think I am doing something for God than I did before and each failure reinforces the importance of prayer.
      As to you not attributing (anything?) Gods hand in events as being cause or effect that is understandable as I once did the same. I would actually have thought fred a fool and say things like Flip Wilson “oh the devil made him do it”.
      Now the Assyrians and Babylonians where not aware that God was “using them” (acting in their lives) and it did not matter to them physically or spiritually because they did not know God. The Sanhedrin thought they were acting for God they actually were not (yet God allowing them to carry out the evil in their hearts) again it did not matter because they did not know God. Only those things of God will endure all else will pass away. Giving thanks to God for what he did or giving him thanks in error matters not so long as you are glorifying Him and such these thanks endure. Not giving God thanks for what he did or did not do will simply pass away.

      August 5, 2011 at 1:54 am |
    • Free

      Are you making messes of things because you are trying to do what you think is right, or what you think God wants you to do? Compassion and what you believe God wants do not appear to be the same thing in many cases. Many of the edicts of the Bible may have been moral in their place and time, but we have moved on as a set of societies, and applying some biblical thinking to today's issues is just, for lack of a more apt term, backward.

      Almost every Christian I know, for example, has some moral reservations about gays, but when asked to articulate why they are against hom.ose.xuality they quickly abandon saying all arguments except that it's in the Bible that God is against it, and anything that God is against is just too dangerous to attempt. They have no logical reasons to be prejudiced, only a superst.ition that gay people are kinda 'bad luck' when God is concerned. I fail to see how this is any more ridiculous than the belief that black cats are unlucky. Haven't we advanced beyond such child-like fears?

      August 5, 2011 at 1:03 pm |
    • fred

      Mostly it is decisions regarding what is Gods will in this area or what does God want me to do about it. Before God came into my life my time was my time. I did what was best or what I wanted and measured success by tangible evidence. Always compassionate, if I had time or extra money it was freely given. Now there are so many demands and so little time I need to make decisions on who is not getting quality time today. The hardest are those who desperately need real friendship and I do not have the time it takes to be a real friend. Sometimes the line between “works” and God working through you gets blurred.
      Gay marriage is a hard question that comes up more often these days. I straddle the fence and give them the name of the church down the street that is open to gay marriage. If they want to break from a gay lifestyle I pray with them and recommend a program in the area that deals with that. Other times they are just dealing with the same stresses or concerns we all are and those answers are the same for everyone. I typically attempt to discover if they are Christian or not. If their main concern is not Christ or having a better relationship with God I focus on that first. There is no sense talking about the “sin” if you reject the notion you are a sinner saved by grace. As to other Christians or anyone asking what does the Bible say about it- well there are only 4 clear verses and no getting around them that I know. The fail safe is always lets pray about it then give me a call if I can help.

      August 5, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • Free

      30 years ago you it would have been a pretty safe bet that you'd have just taken the standard Christian line that being actively gay was sinful. It's a testament to the ongoing evolution of the faith that you have managed to mount the fence in the first place. It really isn't a matter of rejecting 'sin' in principle, but a matter of identifying a human bigotry that managed to slip into scripture after it was posed as God's idea.

      Not all people have an attraction to the same gender, and a desire to enter into a loving relationship with such. However, many people may be tempted to se.xually assault a weaker person of their gender, but that would be just as sinful, or otherwise wrong, as forcing themselves on members of the opposite gender. It's all about fairness, but it was the human presumption of the priestly class that what they considered wrong must be what God considers wrong as well that inspired the biblical verses you mention. The same presumption that has the bible speak out against women's equality and supports the righteousness of slavery. Works just as well whether God is real or fiction. Listen to your heart, get to know some gay people and you will know that who they are is not something 'wrong', only different, and we know that the Jews and early Christians had a low opinion of all things 'different' that we no longer share in good conscience.

      Our sense of compassion overturned these injustices, and it is currently in the process of overturning the injustice against gays as well. The mind turns first, and then people leaf through their bibles in search for justification. They know what is right, and if it's right surely God must agree! In reality, God is just a reflection of current morality.

      August 6, 2011 at 12:11 am |
    • fred

      I have a very close friend who died before God introduced me to the Bible. He was gay. I did not know it was sin at the time and those that teased him had to knock it off or not hang with us. Before he died he told me he was worried he would go hell (Catholic upbringing). I told him that was nonsense and we just don’t understand Latin (since priests spoke Latin at mass I assumed God spoke Latin). When I discovered it to be sin it was too late as he had already died. After that I hung my hat on the fact Jesus never mentioned it even though a couple apostles thought it sin. Another friend, years latter, who died from aids repented of his ho mo $exual life style and went about telling others he had found Jesus and is forgiven as Jesus changed his life. The final two years were painful and he was blind the last 6 months. Neither of us could figure out why God would do that since he could no longer go about playing his guitar and sharing his testimony in the last months. We found many Job rationalizations and others to remain confident God was still in charge. His parents were overjoyed that he had repented of his lifestyle believed in Jesus and now is in heaven.
      As for me I run everything against the words of Jesus and pray about what Jesus words say. I have not found fault in His words. Are you aware of anything Jesus said that is wrong in yesterdays or today’s new world?

      August 6, 2011 at 1:25 am |
    • Free

      I think you can do way worse than being a 'red letter' Christian as you describe yourself, although some of the gospel writers do have Jesus saying some odd things. You are correct that Jesus personally did not say anything against being gay, but to say that you devalue what the apostles said on the matter implies that you do not consider the whole Bible to be God's inspired word, right?

      August 6, 2011 at 1:04 pm |
    • fred

      Over all known history we have seen man search for what is out there as to the physical world and the spiritual world. We have had success proving what this physical world is about using various sciences and no success with those same instruments to prove the existence of God. We continue to search knowing there is something more out there in the physical world and the spiritual world. I can understand agnostics but not atheists simply on the basis one cannot disprove or prove God. That fact man searches both areas in itself indicates we sense something more than what we can now touch, feel or understand. We only see effect when it comes to the spiritual not cause. It is impossible for man to see or prove God thus we only are aware of what God has revealed to man. Throughout history we see man has always wanted to know about god and his purpose with man. God chose to reveal himself to a people and that revelation is recorded in the Bible, a story about God redeeming a people for himself. The revelations are in historical context and answer those questions who is God and what is His purpose with man. As to those ends the Bible is complete and has revealed all we need to know. The Gospel of John uses the “word” to describe Jesus and tie this together. The Jew knew the “word” to be more than we think of it, for in the beginning God spoke all into existence. Thus, the word is solid, it is transforming from nothing to real, something concrete. The Greeks and their philosophers logos is what made sense of lack of chaos. Logos explained the cause behind the effect. John keyed into both these when he opened with” in the beginning was the Word”. To this point in our history I am not aware of any words or being outside of Jesus that more clearly revealed God. Even to those who do not believe at least they could admit that if there were a god this is a clear revelation. If it is not clear revelation what is it you see or expect to see? One cannot say I don’t know but that certainly is not it.
      In short it is about as Devine as anything I have ever seen or heard or personally experienced in my lifetime. How else could I begin to understand the unknowable but through this process called faith in that which you cannot see.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:05 am |
  17. CSCI132

    I hope when he goes to a Texas prison they do not put him in protective custody and they throw him in with the sodomites.

    July 31, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • JAM


      July 31, 2011 at 4:14 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      PRISON? That's what we get with phony Christians and non-believers who don't read or comprehend Jesus' truth if they did read the Bible. Rapists and murderers are to be sent back to Jesus. He'll handle it. Not us.


      July 31, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Free

      Will Jesus also 'handle' the self-righteous, the judgmental, and those who tell lies in his name?

      July 31, 2011 at 11:21 pm |
    • True Freedom

      @Free, Jesus told us to judge the villains. Truth is in the Bible. You don't read the Bible; the reason you can't distinguish truth from lies.

      July 31, 2011 at 11:55 pm |
    • fred

      Jesus already took care of all those folks you are concerned about. Don't forget when he died on the Cross he said"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" "it is finished"

      July 31, 2011 at 11:57 pm |
    • fred

      True Freedom,
      Not sure about "we are to judge sinners". That only applies to believers in our group to the extent that if one amoung us sins we are to pray and bring that person before Christ. I do not read anywhere Christians should judge non believers. It could be even worse in that the same mind and heart we use to judge others will be used against us.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:04 am |
    • True Freedom

      Fred, read the Proverbs. Christians should read the Old Testament Bible in order not to become naive or errorneous. We are to carry the moral laws of Moses still today. Those are right, sensible and very intelligent.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:40 am |
    • True Freedom

      Fred, along with Proverbs, read Matthew 5-7 again where "judge not" appears. The Bible is the most sophisticated en-ti-ty; the reason Bible schools are everywhere and all schools started to study the Bible.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:42 am |
    • fred

      True Freedom
      Jesus made some key points one of which is that we are not capable of making a fair judgement because we ourselves are broken in many ways. Why is it we are let the tares grow with wheat until harvest. Certainly, we know the diference right? Well Jesus did not think even a farmer could make such a decesion and we are let judgement be made only by one that is perfect. Besides just how do we cross that finish line ....by what Jesus did. Who are the redeemed.......those the Father has given to the Son. We do not have a play in judgement because we are all under judgement. Like a bunch of guys on death row arguing who is the farest of them all.

      August 1, 2011 at 1:20 am |
    • True Freedom

      Fred, I know. But those who violate or abuse children are criminals who belong to jail terms or executions; the reason we have laws and governments – the justice system. Refusing to fight against or punish crimes is a sin.

      August 1, 2011 at 7:03 am |
    • fred

      True Freedom,
      True, but you are speakiing of crimes and also mentioned early OT laws previously in this regard. Sin is against God and just gets people ticked off when you throw it at those who do not know or hate God. God provided for a government system in the Bible and what are crimes today all stemed from that base 4,000 years ago. Whether you believe in God or not HIs principles apply. Christians are not to thow sin around outside the congregation (I think I will need look into that more). We are now a secular country in decline. In a secular country Jeffs committed a crime and Christians hidding in dark caves can in private say to one another he has sinned let's pray for him and his victims.
      As for your comments on atheists that is sin it is murder according to the book you quote. Repent

      August 1, 2011 at 10:50 am |
    • Free

      Oh, I don't know, I think there are plenty of them still around today, and they aren't Jewish.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
    • Free

      True Freedom
      "Truth is in the Bible."
      Why, because the Bible says it's so. Full circle, my friend.

      August 1, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • True Freedom

      @Fred, read all of the Bible and think again. I was too lenient and way too mild to American atheists in description. Read what John the Baptist said about the Jews but those Jews were angles comparing to these American atheists. @Free, you are stupid, but your country's laws are based on the Bible you despise. Leave America now; you don't deserve living there.

      August 2, 2011 at 4:54 am |
    • True Freedom

      @Fred, read the Bible passage again. I think you need to study. Atheists are not my brothers but pagans; calling them as they are is not sin or murder. The Bible describes atheists as fools and it is right.

      August 2, 2011 at 4:57 am |
    • Free

      True Freedom
      No need to start calling names, is there?

      As to America being based on the Bible how exactly do you see that? Democracy is all about acknowledging equality between individuals, but Christianity still insists that all people have some Lord dictating over them. Worked fine for the ruling classes of Europe who could demonstrate their right to rule over people by allowing a heavenly ruler to figuratively be answerable to themselves. God then served as the top of some pyramid of hierarchy, but the real power was still amongst the ruling elite, like Communism and other authoritarian regimes.

      We got rid of the King with the Declaration, and I frankly find it rather un-American to welcome one to rule over yourself after gaining independence.

      August 2, 2011 at 12:46 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.