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August 6th, 2011
05:58 PM ET

Praying away the bad economy

Texas Governor Rick Perry tries to pray away the malaise of the economy during a religious gathering in Houston. Read the full report on CNN's Political Ticker.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Church and state • Politics • Prayer • Rick Perry

soundoff (291 Responses)
  1. Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

    Albert Camus

    @Peace- have a good afternoon..it has been a little crowded here...but fun so far

    @Magic- Cute deflection....but since no one but you have brought them up...why should anyone on here feel the need to indulge you?

    @ACTS- "A magic being int he heavens above us can be viewed as a sky wizard."
    They could, but if they are referencing the God of the Abrahamic faiths...they must be ignorant of the topic of magic then and how it pertains to that specific category of religion
    -----------------
    As mentioned before I said in general. I am lumping this particular group with the rest. In general mythical people worship sky wizards of their liking. Before you point out the obvious...yes this is my opinion.

    August 9, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
  2. Faith

    American comedians should make fun of Americans or themselves instead of religions. Kids who disrespect good parents get eternal scorns.

    August 8, 2011 at 10:31 pm |
    • LinCA

      Who needs comedians when we have people like you?

      August 8, 2011 at 10:35 pm |
    • Faith

      Canada is created by Christians to spread Christianity. Secularists ruined the youth.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:37 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Faith

      " Kids who disrespect good parents get eternal scorns. " 😯

      *(face palm)...

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:57 am |
    • jimtanker

      "Kids who disrespect good parents get eternal scorns."

      Dont you mean that they should be taken outside of the city and stoned to death as the bible commands? Deuteronomy 21:18-21

      August 9, 2011 at 3:36 am |
    • Fred1

      A bit more than just scorn
      “Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death…. Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death”
      Exodus 21: 15,17

      August 9, 2011 at 12:58 pm |
  3. Faith

    Good Christians take responsibility and natural consequences with bravery. American Christians should pray against immorality in the nation. Present America does not deserve God's blessings or protection. Too numerous blasphemies and perversions are permitted. Down with the Western freedom! Things to come will come.

    August 8, 2011 at 10:29 pm |
  4. Anonymous

    Hmm, what happens if God is willing to allow the U.S. economy to collapse as punishment for our society's inability to live within our means?

    August 8, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • gozer

      So does your god punish before death as well as after it, in your supposed hell? In that case, your god is meting out double punishment, which modern courts probably would consider excessive.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
    • Muneef

      Well I always thought there is a small/short "Heaven&Hell"in life and another big/long "Heaven&Hell" in after life...!!
      We as well believed that what ever seeds they Sow in life they will Harvest it in life and after life...whether as an individual or society or a country... History told of many societies that had disappeared wiped out for their sins, while the few chosen one's survived...starting from the story of the people of "Prophet Noah"...or Lut/Lot any many more that example of had been given to us by the Bibles and the Quran...

      August 8, 2011 at 10:44 pm |
    • gozer

      So, Muneef, your answer to my question is apparently yes. Which makes your god an as-shole.

      August 9, 2011 at 7:24 am |
    • Fred1

      I don't recall anywhere in the bible wher it says god will punish countries fo echonomic indescretions, or did I miss that part

      August 9, 2011 at 1:01 pm |
    • Muneef

      bulldozer.

      As it seems you are a lock with out key...although they say every lock created has a key...being stubborn and not using your loaf of bread to read,to think, to wonder why you were created and what is wanted from you as those before you...think of our actions and their reactions on us as mankind....LockHeed you are to take Heed...!

      August 9, 2011 at 3:14 pm |
    • Muneef

      Fred1.

      For each Nation or Generation a different type of Tsunami.....some were flooded with volcano lava...some with rain water floods....some by sea water....some by earthquakes....some by cyclone a like....some had ME Spring Tsunami....so not surprising to see an Economical Tsonami.... There are many means for death but death is one....

      August 9, 2011 at 3:24 pm |
  5. gozer

    Rick Perry and his idiot followers prayed, and then the stock markets plunged. Now what are the religious sheeple going to say?

    August 8, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
    • Anonymous

      My sarcastic guess: they're rejoicing... because that's judgment for America, which was lost to the Devil long ago with its worship of Mammon (money).

      August 9, 2011 at 12:50 am |
    • fred

      Religious sheeple that glorify God by following the guidelines set down by Christ will praise Him for the good or the bad God allows their way. So Anonymous your not to far off. Just remember Christians are to be the salt and light to a darkened world. I am trusting in you to let me know if we are creating more darkness than light.
      George Bush asked for national prayer and resolution before entering Iraq. Congress said no and voted on party lines to prohibit prayer. I can't wait to find out what would have happened had we just given peace a chance.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • gozer

      Christians cannot be the "light" to anything worthwhile, because the religion they follow instructs them to do so much evil and takes them away from reasoned actions. Read Leviticus, as just one example.

      So, Christian, which animal did you sacrifice and burn for your (ficti-tious) bloo-dy as-shole in the sky today, to make him happy? And what was the result of your prayers? Nothing, as usual?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:24 pm |
    • o.k.

      Gozer–don't be disingenuous. You've been posting on these religion blogs log enough to know that Christians do not follow the sacrifice rituals and many other practices and regulations laid down in Leviticus because we believe Christ freed us from those practices. You're certainly free to question Jews (particularly orthodox) on the requirements found in Leviticus, but you most certainly know that Christians do not apply those requirements and to suggest otherwise simply paints you as nothing more than a spiteful and vindictive individual. If you want to debate a Christian on his or her actual beliefs and practices, I'm more than ready to enter into that debate with you–if you're up to the task.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:42 pm |
  6. Muneef

    As it seems "The Middle East Spring Flu" will soon be catching into Europe and America

    August 8, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
  7. Muneef

    Bad economy is due bad judgments;
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MH05Df01.html

    August 8, 2011 at 12:06 pm |
    • Reality

      A bad religion results in terror and horror:

      To wit:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,483 and 925 in non combat roles. 99,901 – 109,143 Iraqi civilians killed as of 3/3/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,141 killed in action, 242 killed in non-combat situations as of 03/03/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      August 8, 2011 at 3:33 pm |
    • Fundie

      @ Reality:

      This is exactly why a modern-day crusade is necessary. Religious reasons aside, eliminating Islam is good for national security!

      August 9, 2011 at 12:52 am |
    • Muneef

      No harm in dreaming now but there were times where real men worriers couldn't achieve eliminating Islam....Islam is the only national security that you may be saved with...Multi cultures&Religions have lived and still lived under the Islamic rule..

      August 9, 2011 at 3:36 pm |
    • Reality

      Saving many who suffer from the Three B Syndrome (Bred, Born and Brainwashed in their religion): (please post on your refrigerator doors)

      SAVING 1.5 BILLION LOST MUSLIMS:
      THERE NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE ANY ANGELS I.E. NO GABRIEL, NO ISLAM AND THEREFORE NO MORE KORANIC-DRIVEN ACTS OF HORROR AND TERROR

      SAVING 2 BILLION LOST CHRISTIANS:
      THERE WERE NEVER ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS I.E. NO EASTER, NO CHRISTIANITY

      SAVING 15.5 MILLION ORTHODOX FOLLOWERS OF JUDAISM:
      ABRAHAM AND MOSES PROBABLY NEVER EXISTED.

      Added details upon request.

      August 9, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • Fundie

      @ Muneef:

      Fair point, but I think the reason that the main reason that the medieval crusades failed was exactly because God was NOT on their side; rather, they were merely using God's name to justify their actions. To me, a "modern-day crusade" would be a spiritual one: simply evangelize to as many Muslims as possible.

      August 9, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
    • Muneef

      Still only will win only those who have a strong faith and whom GOD wanted for them to take over... Actually that what is happening having to drive people into poverty and use that to buy their convert but not by firm belief....! Any way each has a will of his own to decide his firm belief and immigrate for it if can not have it in his own land...for one reason or another, didn't the early American settlers immigrate form their own origin countries for the same reason...!

      August 9, 2011 at 8:51 pm |
  8. Muneef

    Why praying away the bad economy will not work out for Americans;

    These pictures are the same pictures that Jewish people could get the
     Sympathy of the world for what they have suffered with Hitler and his army.
    But now they are doing the same crimes with the Palestinians
    Please try to send
    TO CLEAR THE TRUTH OF THE REAL KILLER
    And cooperate to publish as much as possible

    http://www.nawiseh.com/monawat/jewish/

    August 8, 2011 at 11:22 am |
  9. Muneef

     Sympathy of the world for what they have suffered with Hitler and his army.

    But now they are doing the same crimes with the Palestinians
       
    Please try to send
    TO CLEAR THE TRUTH OF THE REAL KILLER
    And cooperate to publish as much as possible

    August 8, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • Amused

      You mean those poor innocent Palestinians who won't stop launching rockets into Jewish territory? Those innocent Palestenians who have vowed to kill every last JEW or DIE TRYING? yeah, right! Keep on dreaming Muneef !

      August 8, 2011 at 3:32 pm |
    • Not Amused

      What Muneef is saying is that the Palestinians had their land taken from them after WWII and given to the Jews(Israelis) and now they are the ones being persecuted. Those two are like the Hatfields and the McCoys. It's better for the U.S. to stay out and let those two handle it themselves. That situation is a prime example of how religion poisons society.

      August 8, 2011 at 8:45 pm |
    • Muneef

      Not long will I be dreaming Changes are already in the way...and what goes around comes around....when the call of the trumpet is heard....to head for martyr-don for the sake of GOD for the sake of our Holy Places, for the rescue of our brothers&sisters....
      The fall of your empire is the fall of all the pyramids and idols they have build to compress the inevitable...as did all the tyrants before them...but there was always a time for tyranny to end and the start of a new lifes and systems...it is not the same for those mercenaries who fight for the hirelings and those who fight for their genuine beliefs...!! The Deen to GOD is Islam....Deen means Judgment which you call Religion...Submission (Islam) is our Judgment (Deen)... [!]

      August 9, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
  10. Lee

    If I screwed up horribly at work and told everyone to get together and telepathically ask a magic man in the sky to make things all better, I would expect to get fired. Rick Perry should expect no different.

    August 8, 2011 at 10:42 am |
    • Albert Camus

      Considering NO ONE has ever called upon a "magic man in the sky"....we have no idea what absurd thing you are talking about.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      Considering NO ONE has ever called upon a "magic man in the sky"....we have no idea what absurd thing you are talking about.
      --------
      God(s) do magical things. God(s)= magic wizard man in the sky

      August 8, 2011 at 2:58 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "God(s) do magical things. God(s)= magic wizard man in the sky"

      Nah..that isn't it. Any fool would just use the term god(s) then. Though perhaps we are dealing with a unique fool who just think they are clever.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:46 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Albert...what is the difference between magic and miracles..and if either existed how would you tell them apart?

      August 8, 2011 at 8:35 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "what is the difference between magic and miracles"

      One is based on a person's own ego and self image of their power. The other is for the benefit of others.

      Not to mention that "magic" is usually associated with religions and faiths not associated with Abrahamic religions. So to try to put "magic" in with those faiths just shows how ignorant that person would be.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:45 am |
    • Stevie7

      "One is based on a person's own ego and self image of their power. The other is for the benefit of others."

      So ... which is which? I see 'miracles' as based on one's ego – that someone is listening to their prayers and selectively answering them. That to me is the definition of ego and feeds right into the self image of their power – that their particular god listens to them.

      Magic, on the other hand, is entertainment, which benefits others. My two year old gets a real kick out of it.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:51 am |
    • Albert Camus

      I am glad your child gets a kick out of stage magic. You do know there is a difference between the magic everyone else is referencing and stage magic right?

      As for your erroneous view on ego...miracles tend to be a little more humbling than you think. I suggest your reference Moses, Elijah and Peter for examples.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:54 am |
    • Stevie7

      "You do know there is a difference between the magic everyone else is referencing and stage magic right?"

      Neither is real, so no, there is no difference.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:57 am |
    • Q

      Al seems to want to defend the magic described in his preferred mythology vs the magic described in competing mythologies.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:57 am |
    • Magic

      Albert Camus,

      Moses and Aaron were highly trained in magic and sorcery. It is quite possible that Jesus also spent time learning those Egyptian magic arts during all of those unaccounted-for years of his life.

      Magic differs from miracles only in that magic is attributed to the powers of the magician - and miracles are said to have a supernatural cause; and a good pray-er and beggar can cadge them with their incantations.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:04 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      It still comes down to mythical beliefs looking to the sky to magical beings. Hard pill to swallow I know.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:05 pm |
    • Q

      Didn't Elijah ask for a miraculous retribution for those young men/boys making fun of his being bald? Didn't God send down two she-bears that mauled them all to death? I don't see the humility in there...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:06 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Q- Thank you for your guessing as to waht my faith is. I never understood why one cannot defend truth without being labeled in some manner. What's wrong with you ppl.

      @Stevie- Hmm, while magic and stage magic is both unreal...in what I will suppose you mean the power behind such things, there is a difference. Magic as most on here describes it has a religious aspect. Stage magic does not. Learn the details in such things steve.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:07 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Magic-"Moses and Aaron were highly trained in magic and sorcery. It is quite possible that Jesus also spent time learning those Egyptian magic arts during all of those unaccounted-for years of his life."

      Hmmm...no evidence to back up anything you said. Wow..sucks to be you.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:08 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Didn't Elijah ask for a miraculous retribution for those young men/boys making fun of his being bald?"

      Nope...how about you educate yourself a little before commenting on ppl you do not know.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "It still comes down to mythical beliefs looking to the sky to magical beings."

      Don't know a single person that does that. I hear a lot of ignorant atheists claiming such things. Guess they feel like that one tyrant back in the 30's and 40's...say a lie enough and eventually ppl will feel it is true.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:11 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Albert Camus

      Hi -Albert...

      It seems from your postings that no one seems to be 'getting' the distinctions that you are attempting to make.

      If you wouldn't mind, I am interested if you would please re-summarize your arguments, as succinctly as possible, so at the very least, I can truly understand what you are attempting to say, and possibly to the benefit of others.

      As again, it appears that everyone is 'missing' your point somehow.

      Sincerely curious... Thanks.

      Regards,

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      "It still comes down to mythical beliefs looking to the sky to magical beings."

      Don't know a single person that does that. I hear a lot of ignorant atheists claiming such things. Guess they feel like that one tyrant back in the 30's and 40's...say a lie enough and eventually ppl will feel it is true.

      --------
      Perhaps you should look around more. Here let me help you out...read this particular blog on Perry. You self denial doesn't change the reality of the subject matter.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:14 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – You definitely high marks for pretentiousness. I didn't comment on your particular faith. You referenced a particular series of figures claiming a unique role for their brand of magic. You were wrong then as you are in your post regarding Elijah, 2 Kings 2:23-24.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      Magic is based on a person's own ego and self image of their power. The other is for the benefit of others.

      Not to mention that "magic" is usually associated with religions and faiths not associated with Abrahamic religions. So to try to put "magic" in with those faiths just shows how ignorant that person would be.

      It is funny to go against the grain of the atheists on here. They think they have an easy slam on those of a faith but when someone shows that there comment is foolish, they get all huffy like spoiled children.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Perhaps you should look around more. Here let me help you out...read this particular blog on Perry."

      Nope..you are incorrect. I didn't see a single thing that goes with him looking for any magical beings in the sky. Try again 😉

      August 9, 2011 at 12:17 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – Crap. O.k. not Elijah, but Elisha. It's hard to keep all these mythical folks straight. Maybe I should dedicate in inordinate amount of my life reading about them in the hope that I'll somehow get to live forever by kissing the correct divine backside in just the right fashion...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:19 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Q- I will show you mercy and give you a chance to re-read the verses you quoted. You might want to read a bit more from the verses prior to those.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:19 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Q- nevermind..you corrected yourself.
      Actually...I would hope if you want to be taken seriously on any religious topic that you have a basic understanding of what you are talking about. Your faith in such things is irrelevant.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:21 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – I certainly don't need your mercy given you've not demonstrated any real capacity to inflict damage. Again, high marks for pretentiousness. I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to "my faith" as you appear to be the one defending various forms of magic over others based on which mythology they stem from, inserting subjective value as needed...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • Laughing

      @Albert Camus

      You're fantastic! Really, you've gotten this down to a science. Mix some pretentiousness here, haughtiness there, throw in a dash of dismissiveness and you got the makings of the perfect arguments that you've been making. So you think that the people responding to you are just whiney children because you believe so much that you're point was really good, so when people try to refute it you firmly believe that you're point was just THAT good that it's unrefutable and that anyone trying to is just angry at their own ignorance...... That's truely astounding, then again you're in good company with a great deal of believers who have done the same thing so I guess it's not as incredible as I first put it, it's actually sort of hum-drum. Also, what is it exactly that you do believe, just out of curiosity? I mean, you've said you hate that whole "labels" thing, so do you have a particular brand or do you only go as far as claiming to believe in god but don't get more specific than that because of those icky labels?

      August 9, 2011 at 12:30 pm |
    • Jiminy Cricket

      Ok, Albert, you pray for the economy; I shall wish upon a star. "No request is too extreme". It is written.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:32 pm |
    • Q

      "Guess they feel like that one tyrant back in the 30's and 40's...say a lie enough and eventually ppl will feel it is true."

      Hey! An indirect Godwin's Law fail...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Maybe I should dedicate in inordinate amount of my life reading about them in the hope.."

      "I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to "my faith" "

      I'll be clearer for you....your views on faith is irrelevant.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:38 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @ Q

      Very nice on the "Heinlein" ! "Godwin's Law" 😀

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Hey! An indirect Godwin's Law fail...'

      Fail? Obviously not since you did not dispute what I said. I am glad you knew what the reference was but to goof on Godwin's law...the co/mparisson had to be clear. It wasn't but the point of many atheists saying lies over and over again and hoping it becomes true was not proven wrong.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:41 pm |
    • Magic

      May we please have your verified evidence for instances of "God"-caused miracles?

      August 9, 2011 at 12:41 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Laughing- "so when people try to refute it you firmly believe that you're point was just THAT good that it's unrefutable and that anyone trying to is just angry at their own ignorance...... "

      If these same ppl keep putting up the exact same thing as if it refutes and argument...then they are ignorant. Oh, if I am wrong on something I admit it and never have a problem with it. But when one puts up a counter argument and the response is just the same original comment that does nothing to address the counter...what is to be said than they are ignorant and/or whiny.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Magic- "May we please have your verified evidence for instances of "God"-caused miracles?"

      Why? How would that address the difference between miracles and magic? Oh..I see...you want to try and change the topic a little. How cute. Fail.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:46 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "Magic as most on here describes it has a religious aspect. Stage magic does not. Learn the details in such things steve."

      Details are irrelevant here because neither are real. It would be like discussing the similarities and differences between nymphs and mermaids – or between Harry Potter and Voldemort. I get that there are differences, but again, neither are real.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:46 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Peace- I always perferred Reductio ad Hitlerum...just because stuff sounds better in latin.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:48 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Albert Camus

      Hey -Albert...

      I had asked for you to re-summarize a bit on your message. You later posted this, so maybe that was for my, or others benefit.

      Anyway, thanks...

      You Said: " Magic is based on a person's own ego and self image of their power. The other is for the benefit of others. "

      Is this just your personal opinion, or do you have references to back up your statement...? In my opinion, I think "magic" is a skill like other things that can be useful, and... can benefit others as well.

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:52 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – Clearly you have a much more highly evolved notion of a deity, one equal in complexity to your self-perceived eruditiousness. A "magic man in the sky" is a rather accurate description of the common anthropocentric conception of a deity. A humanized supernatural character, living somewhere "out/up there" who listens and responds via magic to the desires of mortals. Maybe your a pantheist or something though I doubt it given your Abrahamic references. Nonetheless, your attempts to distinguish this brand of magic from others hasn't yielded a single decent point. It must be frustrating having all that biblical wisdom and not being able to enlighten us poor skeptical fools. Maybe we need to be possessed first by some holy spirit? Maybe if you pray hard and curse us, the biblical god will send she-bears to maul all of us...

      August 9, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      Stevie7- While I agree that either form of magic is not real...that doesn't make a difference. What does make a difference is when one discusses such things in a theological manner. Stage magic doesn't have anything to do with theology while "magic" as discussed on here does.

      One would not co.mpare biology with metallurgy when asking questions on the co.mposition of gold. Both are sciences but only one would make sense to bring up.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:54 pm |
    • Laughing

      @Albert Camus

      "If these same ppl keep putting up the exact same thing as if it refutes and argument...then they are ignorant."

      So you're telling me that since people keep writing the same thing, and you disagree with them, they are ignorant? That's pretty silly. People keep giving you the same reponse because those are the repsonses you're asking for. It'sl like you saying 2+2=5, a bunch of people chime in and say, "no dumby, 2+2=4" and then you believe that since they are wrong no matter how many times we insist 2+2=4. Sure you're willing to admit you're wrong if we somehow proved the 2+2=3 or 6, but since everyone says it's 4 and you're absolutely sure they're wrong, you have the highground, is that it?

      August 9, 2011 at 12:54 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "One would not co.mpare biology with metallurgy when asking questions on the co.mposition of gold. Both are sciences but only one would make sense to bring up"

      Red Herring. Gold is real.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:56 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Peace- "Is this just your personal opinion, or do you have references to back up your statement...? In my opinion, I think "magic" is a skill like other things that can be useful, and... can benefit others as well."

      You are welcome to your opinion of course. But from my studies on wiccanism, paganism, caananite religon, egyptian religion (for example)...those that use magic are considered unique. They themselves have the innate power to wield magic.
      When discussing the Torah, no such distinctions are given to those chosen to perform miracles. After such a long runaround of discussion on here...the only point I was trying to make is that co/mparing those in the Torah/Bible as using magic is flawed. But the ignorant ant-religious masses don't seem to care.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:58 pm |
    • Q

      @Stevie7 – I think we're about to receive a lesson on the position of "magic" in the supernatural ontology.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:01 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Q- "It must be frustrating having all that biblical wisdom and not being able to enlighten us poor skeptical fools. Maybe we need to be possessed first by some holy spirit? Maybe if you pray hard and curse us, the biblical god will send she-bears to maul all of us..."

      Why would it be frustrating? My faith and selfworth is not based on the ignorant to become intelligent through a cnn comment board. But I will ask how frustrating it is for you that you cannot and have not accurately said why magic and miracles are the same..beyond your own prejudice against all aspects of religion.

      Do you think you could be possessed by the holy spirt? Would that prove anything to you?

      Pray? For what? That you might understand the difference in magic to miracles? I have higher hopes that your human mind could see the differences. Maybe I hope too much.

      Lol..she-bears...still got the right person for that reference?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:04 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Stevie-"Red Herring. Gold is real."

      Not really..the red herring label...not the gold part. The co.mparisson is good. One, a rational person at least, would want to use correct terminology on any subject. The fact is...stage magic is not the same thing as "magic" when discussing theological topics.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Magic

      Al, You refuse to provide verified evidence of "God"-caused miracles, therefore comparing it to stage magic is not possible.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:07 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      And again we are back to people calling upon their mythical creature/being to conduct miracles in their eyes and magic in the eyes of others. Is not magic supernatural in nature? Whbo is to say the gods don't practice magic or what they do is in fact a form of magic?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Fred1

      @Albert Camus: Yes one of my favorite medicals happened to Elisha. Truly an example of gods love and forgivness

      And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." 2 Kings, 2:23-2

      August 9, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "So you're telling me that since people keep writing the same thing, and you disagree with them, they are ignorant? That's pretty silly."

      It would be..if that was what I said..which it wasn't.

      But what I did say had to do with giving the same responces in light of different counter arguments. Merely repeating magic and miracles are the same doesn't counter arguments. I have put up different views on thsi subject and some, not all, have just came up with the "you're wrong" response basically.

      Comment boards can be fun, but it can be hard to carry on multiple conversations on them. Especially when many of those are atheists who seem to put extreme value on putting those of faith down.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:11 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      If a person is agnostic can they view a god as simply a potential wizard conducting magic?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – Clearly you want to distinguish magic vs miracles as a function of source, purpose, etc. When atheists reference magic, they are generally referring to it as the supernatural mechanism by which some action is brought about. Under this usage, it doesn't matter who the source is and so miracles and magic become interchangeable. They are also held to be interchangeable in that, while the distinctions you've noted in your considerable studies of mythology are perhaps fascinating to folks like yourself, they are nonetheless fictional.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Magic- "You refuse to provide verified evidence of "God"-caused miracles, therefore comparing it to stage magic is not possible."

      Won't let the reflecting go will you. I am sorry but what you are asking for is irrelevant to the conversation. One does not need to prove anything as real or not real to have a conversation on what makes one what it is. Now if someone on here had said that a difinition of a miracle is that it must be sent from God...you might have something. But, no one actually said that. Sorry....try something else.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:14 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "If a person is agnostic can they view a god as simply a potential wizard conducting magic?"

      They could...though they would have to ignore all the Torah saus in reference to magic. But if they want to be ignorant...they can be.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "Especially when many of those are atheists who seem to put extreme value on putting those of faith down."

      Now let's examine your comments:
      "perhaps we are dealing with a unique fool who just think they are clever."
      "So to try to put "magic" in with those faiths just shows how ignorant that person would be."
      "What's wrong with you ppl."
      " Oh..I see...you want to try and change the topic a little. How cute. Fail."
      "I hear a lot of ignorant atheists claiming such things. Guess they feel like that one tyrant back in the 30's and 40's...say a lie enough and eventually ppl will feel it is true."
      "beyond your own prejudice against all aspects of religion."

      So, albie, which one are you – the pot, or the kettle?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:17 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Under this usage, it doesn't matter who the source is and so miracles and magic become interchangeable. They are also held to be interchangeable in that, while the distinctions you've noted in your considerable studies of mythology are perhaps fascinating to folks like yourself, they are nonetheless fictional."

      Odd....I doubt you would agree with that when Christians think in that manner. I mean, to some common Christians an atheist equals a sinner that is no better than a rap-ist, child killer that will burn in hell with all their dirty like minded sinners. But to some, they are interchangeable.

      Careful as to what you label fictional..you wouldn't want to delve into the philosophy of the Absurd. Someone might ask you to prove something is fictional.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "the pot, or the kettle?"

      Neither, considering my comments were generalizations not reflective of anyone on here. You didn't happen to take any of my comments personally did you?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      "If a person is agnostic can they view a god as simply a potential wizard conducting magic?"

      They could...though they would have to ignore all the Torah saus in reference to magic. But if they want to be ignorant...they can be.

      -------
      There are many gods and mythical beliefs. The one in the Torah is one of many. So the Torah is the authority by which I should make my final decision?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:24 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "Neither, considering my comments were generalizations not reflective of anyone on here. You didn't happen to take any of my comments personally did you?"

      Did you read your original comment? You are putting atheists down just as you claim atheists are putting believers down. You never made any inference to personal or specific attacks (although many of your negative comments are directed as specific posters). I'm taking nothing personally, I'm just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Albert Camus

      Hey -Al...

      You Said: " You are welcome to your opinion of course. But from my studies on wiccanism, paganism, caananite religon, egyptian religion (for example)...those that use magic are considered unique. They themselves have the -innate power- to wield magic. "

      Also, as someone who also has done my fair share of study into those areas you mentioned, I don't want to assume here as to your meaning, but I'll take a shot... are you suggesting that when you say some people have "the -innate power- to wield magic" that *means* said people are actually doing something 'supernatural'... or something beyond 'stage magic'...?

      In other words literally being able to 'raise the dead' so-to-speak...?

      Curious...

      Regards,

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • SeanNJ

      Just start calling Albert Camus "Lycidas," and be done with it already. Christ, this thread is painful to read.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "There are many gods and mythical beliefs. The one in the Torah is one of many. So the Torah is the authority by which I should make my final decision?"

      True..there are many, but considering we have been revolving the Abrahamic religions...discussing other faiths didn't seem very important.
      The Torah is the foundation for the Abrahamic faiths....and since we have been discussing this topic from that perspective...it might make sense to actually see what the Torah says.
      Now if you want to talk Hindu we can try co/mparing magic with what's in the Vedas I guess. But my guess would be that you are trying to reflect the discussion a bit. Maybe I am wrong.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Just start calling Albert Camus "Lycidas," and be done with it already. Christ, this thread is painful to read."

      Lol. Wonder when someone would say it. Heck..I expected Artist to say something.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – The difference between your very flawed analogy is that magic as mechanism is part of most formal definitions and not simply the subjective interpretation of convenience. My point regarding fiction is as you infer, however, neglects that the claim of supernatural events emanates from the stories and those who accept them. The burden of proof would be theirs having made the positive claim. Are you suggesting the supernatural events described in the various mythologies you've studied were not fictional?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Stevie-"You are putting atheists down just as you claim atheists are putting believers down."

      Easy there high-speed. I was putting down specific atheists down...not all. There are many atheists on here that debate rather well and I have a lot of respect for. Currenty at this moment...not as much overall.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • Magic

      Albert: "my comments were generalizations not reflective of anyone on here."

      Each one of those comments was directed at one individual or another. You will not be allowed to weasel out of it, sorry.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      "There are many gods and mythical beliefs. The one in the Torah is one of many. So the Torah is the authority by which I should make my final decision?"

      True..there are many, but considering we have been revolving the Abrahamic religions...discussing other faiths didn't seem very important.
      The Torah is the foundation for the Abrahamic faiths....and since we have been discussing this topic from that perspective...it might make sense to actually see what the Torah says.
      Now if you want to talk Hindu we can try co/mparing magic with what's in the Vedas I guess. But my guess would be that you are trying to reflect the discussion a bit. Maybe I am wrong.
      --------------------–
      Just to clarify, I was speaking in general, not specific to Abrahamic religions.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:35 pm |
    • Stevie7

      AC: "many of those are atheists who seem to put extreme value on putting those of faith down."

      AC: "I hear a lot of ignorant atheists claiming such things. Guess they feel like that one tyrant back in the 30's and 40's...say a lie enough and eventually ppl will feel it is true"

      You don't see the hypocrisy in those two statements? Wow.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:37 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Q-"The burden of proof would be theirs having made the positive claim. Are you suggesting the supernatural events described in the various mythologies you've studied were not fictional?"

      See...I disagree and think that's just other ppl being intellectually lazy. If one claims something is fictional...they can't just get to lay back and hope the other person squirms. By calling somethin fictional, you are making some accusations that can be tested or studied upon. If something is fictional, then you should be able to prove who wrote it. When they wrote, Where they wrote, Why....etc.

      As to the supernatural events you are talking about...I simply say I do not know. On such topics I lean on the real Albert Camus and choose hope.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:37 pm |
    • GodPot

      Definition of MAGIC
      1a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
      2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source – Merriam-Webster

      Definition of MIRACLE
      1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
      2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment – Merriam-Webster

      @Albert – I'm glad you believe yourself to be clever, but your entire debate has more in common with people who argue over whether a car has a trunk or a boot. Prayer IS a person knowingly asking what they believe to be a supernatural being for supernatural aid or power. The only difference between prayer and an incantation is who the person believes they are directing that prayer/incantation.

      By the way, the only reason Christians today pray to Jesus instead of Zeus is that a pagan Roman emporer decided to use Christianity as a way to consolodate his empire after a bloody civil war.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • Stevie7

      " I was putting down specific atheists down...not all."
      Now, let's again examine your comments:

      "perhaps we are dealing with a unique fool who just think they are clever."
      "What's wrong with you ppl."
      " Oh..I see...you want to try and change the topic a little. How cute. Fail."
      "beyond your own prejudice against all aspects of religion."

      These are not responses to specific people how, exactly?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Magic- "Each one of those comments was directed at one individual or another. You will not be allowed to weasel out of it, sorry."

      If that is what you feel. Good luck with it. Though I have to wonder, if you don't like being talked to in that manner....why do it yourself? I never have a problem carrying a conversation with a person in the manner they behave.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Godpot- "Prayer IS a person knowingly asking what they believe to be a supernatural being for supernatural aid or power. The only difference between prayer and an incantation is who the person believes they are directing that prayer/incantation."

      All it takes is for one...just one...prayer to be conducted that does not ask for supernatural aid or power and you are wrong. Are you certain you are correct in your views?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:42 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Albert Camus

      I know I jumped into this thread and conversation pretty later here.

      A little crowded, and I know you have 'many' that you are in discussion/debate with, but I wanted to say thanks for an interesting discussion.

      I love to learn...

      Regards,

      Peace...

      August 9, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Magic

      Al, "If something is fictional, then you should be able to prove who wrote it."

      Do you consider Leprechauns fictional? Who *exactly* made them up?... include name, hut address and inspiration, please.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      "an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"
      .
      In general, the source of a god can be considered magic. A god can be viewed as a magical being. A being conducting magic can be viewed as a wizard. A magic being int he heavens above us can be viewed as a sky wizard.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Stevei- "perhaps we are dealing with a unique fool who just think they are clever."
      ~Did I say a specific person? Nope...generalization. Maybe you saw a bit of yourself in this and took it persoanlly...who knows. Don't care.

      "What's wrong with you ppl."
      ~Another generalization. What's the problem?

      " Oh..I see...you want to try and change the topic a little. How cute. Fail."
      ~It was cute and he did fail to deflect the conversation.

      "beyond your own prejudice against all aspects of religion."
      ~I stand by the notion that the person has pre judged all aspects of religion. If I am wrong..i apologize to that person.

      "These are not responses to specific people how, exactly?"
      Some could be...some aren't. No where have you shown these statements to be incorrect.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • Stevie7

      Here's my attempt to summarize this riduculously long thread:

      Someone makes the initial claim that god is a magic man in the sky. This is a clear attempt to state that god is not real, but is make believe. Albert then constructs a straw man argument by splitting hairs and very narrowly defining magic. The rest of us then bang our heads on the wall in an attempt to get Albert to see that his argument is a straw man and doesn't refute the original argument in the least, because it's not at all relevant to the original argument, but is merely a way to deflect from that argument. Does that sound about right?

      August 9, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Q

      @Al – Well, first, I think we both know "proof" is unachievable. What we have available is the total weight of empirical evidence, none of which supports the existence of supernatural mechanisms. From this vantage, we can reject claims of supernatural causation with confidence but absolutism. It's not intellectually lazy to recognize that the burden is again on those who would make a positive claim, particularly such extraordinary claims.

      I can appreciate hopeful agnosticism.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Stevie7

      Here's my attempt to summarize this riduculously long thread:

      Someone makes the initial claim that god is a magic man in the sky. This is a clear attempt to state that god is not real, but is make believe. Albert then constructs a straw man argument by splitting hairs and very narrowly defining magic. The rest of us then bang our heads on the wall in an attempt to get Albert to see that his argument is a straw man and doesn't refute the original argument in the least, because it's not at all relevant to the original argument, but is merely a way to deflect from that argument. Does that sound about right?
      ----------
      Pretty close. So we are back to people praying for magic from their grand wizard in the sky, which to date has said f u to them.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Peace- have a good afternoon..it has been a little crowded here...but fun so far 🙂

      @Magic- Cute deflection....but since no one but you have brought them up...why should anyone on here feel the need to indulge you?

      @ACTS- "A magic being int he heavens above us can be viewed as a sky wizard."
      They could, but if they are referencing the God of the Abrahamic faiths...they must be ignorant of the topic of magic then and how it pertains to that specific category of religion.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • Q

      Oops. "...with confidence but NOT absolutism".

      August 9, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      And this particular someone could be Lycidias twin brother.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • GodPot

      "All it takes is for one...just one...prayer to be conducted that does not ask for supernatural aid or power "

      Just the act of attempting to contact what you believe is the creator of the universe via telepathy, even if just to say hi or thanks, is still "asking" for supernatural aid or power, how else does your prayer arrive at it's intended destination? You are asking for the power to deliver your prayer or at least have an expectation that something "miraculous" will happen with your verbal or silent message.

      My bet is that Albert is a very successful troll, this thread proves it.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Colin

      AlbertCamus:

      If one is a proselytizing Christian missionary in Polynesia, the native belief that an infinitely old, super-powerful, invisible volcano god reads minds and rewards or punishes human beings with eternal life or eternal damnation in the presence of an evil devil-spirit depending on their adherence to certain island rules, and the performance of weekly communal rituals where flesh and blood are symbolically consumed, is a classic native superst.ition.

      However, the belief that an infinitely old, super-powerful, invisible sky god reads minds (or “hears prayers” as they put it) and rewards or punishes human beings with eternal life or eternal damnation in the presence of an evil devil-spirit depending on their adherence to ten commandments, and the performance of weekly communal rituals where flesh and blood are symbolically consumed, is essentially the Catholic religion.

      In this vein, which of the following is sillier?

      "The wizard, dressed in his purple robe, raised the goblet of wine to the sky. He spoke the magic words of the sacred ceremony to the sky fairy in the heavens and the wine was turned into the blood of the great prophet." or

      "The Catholic priest, dressed in his white robes, raised the chalice of wine toward the sky. He spoke the sacred words of the Catholic mass to God in heaven and the wine was transformed into the blood of Christ."

      Magic beings are magic beings, whether we call them gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Stevie- "Albert then constructs a straw man argument by splitting hairs and very narrowly defining magic."

      I think you need to refresh yoursefl with what a straw man argument is. I am sorry that ppl want to make ignorant uses of terms such as magic when they are trying to belittle other ppl's faith. Is it so much to ask to use proper terminology and show a little respect for other ppl's beliefs?
      I don't think so but apparently there are those that do.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @Artist- "And this particular someone could be Lycidias twin brother."

      You're a little late..Sean already brought this up. Surprised it took that long.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:56 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      @Artist- "And this particular someone could be Lycidias twin brother."

      You're a little late..Sean already brought this up. Surprised it took that long.

      ----
      I must have missed his post in the middle of all these. My bad.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:01 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "Just the act of attempting to contact what you believe is the creator of the universe via telepathy, even if just to say hi or thanks, is still "asking" for supernatural aid or power, how else does your prayer arrive at it's intended destination? You are asking for the power to deliver your prayer or at least have an expectation that something "miraculous" will happen with your verbal or silent message. My bet is that Albert is a very successful troll, this thread proves it."

      Wow Godpot...you call me a troll and yet ignore all the other ppl doing the same thing I am...carrying on a conversation. Sorry to tell you this but your the newbie to this immediate conversation and have more of a calling to be the troll than anyone else.

      But there are those that say prayer and never expect an answer. But, you may believe and carry your own faith in things as you see fit.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
    • GodPot

      " I am sorry that ppl want to make ignorant uses of terms such as magic when they are trying to belittle other ppl's faith."

      Lift = Elevator
      Boot = Trunk
      Aerial = Antenna
      Bonnet = Hood
      God = Magic man in sky
      Albert = Troll who won't let anyone cross the bridge unless they call his Boot a trunk and Magic man a God.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:05 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      @Stevie- "Albert then constructs a straw man argument by splitting hairs and very narrowly defining magic."

      I think you need to refresh yoursefl with what a straw man argument is. I am sorry that ppl want to make ignorant uses of terms such as magic when they are trying to belittle other ppl's faith. Is it so much to ask to use proper terminology and show a little respect for other ppl's beliefs?
      I don't think so but apparently there are those that do.

      ---------–
      My difference of opinion and expressing it is disrespectful? Interesting.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Albert Camus/Lycidas

      @ACTS/Artist- "I must have missed his post in the middle of all these. My bad."

      No problem....five or so ppl going back and forth would make it easy to miss something.

      @Colin- "Magic beings are magic beings, whether we call them gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls."

      Your opinion. And "sillier"....when did that become a scientific descrpition of anything?

      August 9, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @TrollPot- You aren't very well versed with what the Torah says about magic are you? If you were you might begin to understand why using the term magic on any figure within the Torah is faulty. But hey...if you just want to go down the troll-road and not offer anything useful...knock yourself out.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:09 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      "My difference of opinion and expressing it is disrespectful? Interesting."

      Oh good grief no. One can offer a different view on things and still be respectful. But let us theorize a little bit. When Lee (dang you Lee for starting this..lol) used the term "magic" was he doing it from a genuine theological perspective or was he just using the term to try and push buttons? If from a genuine theological perspective...then it's not meant to be direspectable.
      However, I would guess they were just using the term to push buttons...that is disrespectable.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:14 pm |
    • GodPot

      "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." – Wiki

      Lee – "If I screwed up horribly at work and told everyone to get together and telepathically ask a magic man in the sky to make things all better, I would expect to get fired. Rick Perry should expect no different.

      Albert – "Considering NO ONE has ever called upon a "magic man in the sky"....we have no idea what absurd thing you are talking about."

      This is what it looks like to the rest of us:

      Lee – I went out to my car and put the bags in the boot.

      Albert – Your stupid, car's don't have boots.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:14 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      But there are those that say prayer and never expect an answer. But, you may believe and carry your own faith in things as you see fit.
      ---
      I believe he was speaking in general. Please note when talking to Albert you must clarify if you mean in general. If not, it is like talking to Rainman. In general people pray/talk to their magical being (sky wizard) asking for things and sometimes not. Depending on what they might "hear" they could show symptoms of schizophrenia. Sometimes people across the board of religions experience acts of magic/miracles from their sky gods..

      August 9, 2011 at 2:14 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      "My difference of opinion and expressing it is disrespectful? Interesting."

      Oh good grief no. One can offer a different view on things and still be respectful. But let us theorize a little bit. When Lee (dang you Lee for starting this..lol) used the term "magic" was he doing it from a genuine theological perspective or was he just using the term to try and push buttons? If from a genuine theological perspective...then it's not meant to be direspectable.
      However, I would guess they were just using the term to push buttons...that is disrespectable.
      --
      Your opinion

      August 9, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      Ah TrollPot..keep them coming. They are amusing.

      @Artist- now now....one should keep focused in a conversation. Many ppl switch from general to specific when it suits their needs but all they do is form fallacies. If they do it on purpose they are just being dishonest. He might have been speaking in general terms...but I wouldn't want him to try and take the general and apply it to the singular on a whim.

      Let's be honest...when you use the phrase "sky wizard"....do you really think that is an accurate term to be using? Or are you just doing it to push ppl's buttons eh?

      It would be no more honest to quit using the term atheist and start calling them "hell kindling" all the time. Or less inflammatory....to call atheism a religion. Seems that incorrect use of terminology gets under the skin of many a atheist.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • Albert Camus

      @ACTS- Yep...my opinion, in regard to intent.
      However, it's not an opinion that using magic as a descriptive term for a being in the Torah that flat out stated magic was wrong...is ignorant.

      But I am sure that many a atheist will still crudely use the term "magic" incorrectly in the future.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:25 pm |
    • Lee

      Holy long thread!

      "I am sorry that ppl want to make ignorant uses of terms such as magic when they are trying to belittle other ppl's faith."

      Ignorant? Anything supernatural can be defined as magic. If your beliefs include doctrines synonymous with magic, then the problem lies with your beliefs, not other people's definitions. And who cares what a book written by actual ignorant bronze aged men wrote? Do they get to define magic? I don't think so.

      Albert – please provide ANY evidence that a god exists, then provide evidence that your god exists, then provide evidence that telepathy with your god is possible, then provide evidence that your god responds to the aforementioned telepathic communication. Until you or anyone does that, you deserve to be the butt of jokes.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • GodPot

      Albert – " I would guess they were just using the term to push buttons...that is disrespectable."

      Ah, so the truth comes out. You took issue with Lee because you felt disrespected. This would be more like someone saying David Blaine performs cheap tricks, and David proclaiming "No! They are not cheap tricks! They are magic!" Potato, Pot-ah-to.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      @ACTS- Yep...my opinion, in regard to intent.
      However, it's not an opinion that using magic as a descriptive term for a being in the Torah that flat out stated magic was wrong...is ignorant.

      But I am sure that many a atheist will still crudely use the term "magic" incorrectly in the future.

      -------------
      I think we get it regarding the Torah. But my understanding is most are talking in general terms when it comes to magical sky wizards/santa etc.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:44 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Would santa be considered a magical being/wizard?

      August 9, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Albert Camus

      @ACTS- Yep...my opinion, in regard to intent.
      However, it's not an opinion that using magic as a descriptive term for a being in the Torah that flat out stated magic was wrong...is ignorant.

      But I am sure that many a atheist will still crudely use the term "magic" incorrectly in the future.

      ----–
      While people are talking in general, why do you keep interjectiong ancient tp into this discussion? confused?????

      August 9, 2011 at 2:49 pm |
    • GodPot

      "using magic as a descriptive term for a being in the Torah that flat out stated magic was wrong...is ignorant."

      Sadly, you are wrong. The Torah say's that the use of magic is wrong, that does not change the fact that from an outsider looking at their ritual and their prayer and seeing the only differences between those of Christians or Jew's and those of Satanists or Pagan's is the "who" they are praying to. You can wish all you want that what you do is not "magic" but thats the "magical" thing about words, you don't have to know what ignoramus means to be one.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:00 pm |
    • I_get_it

      Albert Camus: The Torah condemns what it considers to be 'magic' - it just doesn't consider its own mystical tenets and incantations as 'magic'. The Torah's take on the as-yet unknown explanations for certain things is every bit as nebulous as any other 'magic'. I'm sorry if the word and concept offend you. I understand your bristling at the seeming put-down, however...

      August 9, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • GodPot

      Oh, and btw, a garbage man is really a professional sanitary engineer...

      August 9, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Trollpot-"Ah, so the truth comes out. You took issue with Lee because you felt disrespected."

      No, I did not feel disrespected. But they did use a term that has a disrespectful intent. I doubt you realize or care but I do defend other ppl's opinions on here in regards to their faith. I am sure you will not believe that and that's ok. But if a person is not ignorant in their belief, they have my respect. Those that just want to push buttons upon a faith are, flatly put, stupid.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:12 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @I_get_it- "The Torah condemns what it considers to be 'magic' – it just doesn't consider its own mystical tenets and incantations as 'magic'. The Torah's take on the as-yet unknown explanations for certain things is every bit as nebulous as any other 'magic'. I'm sorry if the word and concept offend you. I understand your bristling at the seeming put-down, however..."

      Finally a decent reply. I will admit that to those who are utterly unfamilar with the Abrahamic faiths, they might feel using the term "magic" is fine. I hold no ill will toward them that aren't familiar with the faith.
      I had higher hopes though for those ppl that are on this comment board that they might see why the term isn't the best to use. Many on these boards seem to claim an understanding of the Bible and what is inside it. I guess I expect better from them.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
    • Stevie7

      " One can offer a different view on things and still be respectful."

      And yet you call anyone who does not share your narrow definition of magic ignorant. How cute. Fail.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "But I am sure that many a atheist will still crudely use the term "magic" incorrectly in the future."

      Should really be stated as

      "But I am sure that many a atheist will still crudely use the term "magic" in a way that differs from my very limited definition of the word, and thus I universally declare to be incorrect, in the future.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:24 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Lol...no no no Steve, it is not disrespectful to point out when terminology is wrong. Also I was talking about other ppl's faith. Not if it is your faith that God is magical..hey, you are welcome to it.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • Lycidas

      You have been very entertaining Steve-O, I'll give you that. But rewording what I wrote to soothe your own foolishness doesn't really do much now does it?

      Now if you believe in using terminology wrong or in possible insulting ways, that is your cross to bear. Maybe I expect too much of you. Don't feel singled out, I point out Christian's flaws, Hindu, islamic, Athiest....many many ppl. So don't feel bad, you aren't special.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:28 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "Lol...no no no Steve, it is not disrespectful to point out when terminology is wrong."

      Again should be written as:

      "Lol...no no no Steve, it is not disrespectful to point out when terminology is wrong according to my narrowly defined understanding of that terminology."

      There is a reason why dictionaries have several definitions of a word. Not all of us subscribe to the Albert/Lycidas/WhoeverYouHappenToBeRightNow dictionary.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Don't worry Steve..I only use three usernames to keep things straight on here. You won't need to hurt your wittle head to keep up.

      As for the definitions...only one person...ONE...has brought anything about official definitions. You wasn't that one person. So thank you for bringing nothing to the discussion except trying to defeat my position on the discussion by attacking me instead of the topic. Good job. lol

      August 9, 2011 at 3:34 pm |
    • Lee

      Albert/Lycidas – please provide ANY evidence that a god exists, then provide evidence that your god exists, then provide evidence that telepathy with your god is possible, then provide evidence that your god responds to the aforementioned telepathic communication.

      Until you do so, why would you expect preferential treatment for the Abrahamic gods? Why should we refer to the magic of those religions as miracles, but all other religions as magic? Your faith (belief despite lack of evidence) isn't enough reason for the rest of us to change our definitions. Sorry if you are offended, but maybe you should reconsider your magical beliefs.

      August 9, 2011 at 4:01 pm |
    • Stevie7

      No worries, Lycidas, given how you were never on topic in the first place.

      August 9, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Okay so Lycidias disagrees with the view that gods might as well be magical sky wizards?

      August 9, 2011 at 4:16 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Lee- OMGosh...you live!

      "please provide ANY evidence that a god exists, then provide evidence that your god exists, then provide evidence that telepathy with your god is possible, then provide evidence that your god responds to the aforementioned telepathic communication."

      ~Why?

      "Until you do so, why would you expect preferential treatment for the Abrahamic gods?"

      ~I don't...I expect basic respect for all faiths or beliefs that includes atheism.

      "Why should we refer to the magic of those religions as miracles, but all other religions as magic?"

      ~I don't require you to call them miracles at all. Never once said on here that anyone had to. Never said anyone had to call anything magic either now did I? I can see that you are wanting to put me into a group that you already have arguments ready for but life isn't fair to you in that regard. I will tell you this, how about referencing miracles or magic as supernatural events. That's a pretty neutral phrase isn't it? You can even put "unproven" in front of it when you use it.

      "Your faith (belief despite lack of evidence) isn't enough reason for the rest of us to change our definitions."

      ~My beliefs, or yours, are irrelevant to proper use of language.

      "Sorry if you are offended, but maybe you should reconsider your magical beliefs."

      ~Since I do not believe in magic, you are either an idiot or..no, you are just an idiot. But what are ya going to do eh?

      August 9, 2011 at 6:13 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Steve-O, guess you didn't actually read the beginning of all this but still decided to comment. How unsurprising.

      August 9, 2011 at 6:14 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Lycidas
      I will tell you this, how about referencing miracles or magic as supernatural events. That's a pretty neutral phrase isn't it? You can even put "unproven" in front of it when you use it.
      -------------------
      Magic The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
      .
      It appears it is being used properly. Gods do act magical(supernatural/mysterious).Apparently you take issue with the word magic and I am sorry for that but I see no reason to change.

      August 9, 2011 at 6:31 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Of course you don't

      August 9, 2011 at 7:19 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      I will take it you do not disagree with me, rather dislike my use of the word magic in place of supernatural.

      August 9, 2011 at 7:24 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "I will take it you do not disagree with me, rather dislike my use of the word magic in place of supernatural."

      I disagree with you on certain topics of course but yes, I def dislike the use of magic to God. Magic implies a much more specific thing than a general term as supernatural.

      August 9, 2011 at 7:35 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Albert..you claim that magic is used by other faiths but not yours? How do you know that their magic is not miracles? You claim miracles because it sounds better than magic,,, but that is what it is.. Christianity, Islam, Wicca all invoke magic in some form to keep it interesting....turning water into wine was not a magic trick....have you any proof it happened... but it sounds like a magic trick to me..to impress the masses......

      August 9, 2011 at 11:36 pm |
    • Lee

      ~Why?

      Because the burden of proof is on the positive claim. The claim in this case being that Rick Perry et al have a god that answers prayer.

      ~I don't...I expect basic respect for all faiths or beliefs that includes atheism.

      I gathered earlier that you were ok with the use of the term "magic" when used to describe other religions' supernatural claims, but continually reject the term when used to.describe your supernatural claims. Was I wrong?

      You expect respect for faith? Why would anyone respect belief despite lack of evidence? In no other aspect of life is faith considered virtuous. Why religion?

      Atheism, by definition, is a lack of belief, not a belief, let alone faith. Don't lump atheism in with religion when it is in fact a lack thereof.

      ~I don't require you to call them miracles at all. Never once said on here that anyone had to. Never said anyone had to call anything magic either now did I? I can see that you are wanting to put me into a group that you already have arguments ready for but life isn't fair to you in that regard. I will tell you this, how about referencing miracles or magic as supernatural events. That's a pretty neutral phrase isn't it? You can even put "unproven" in front of it when you use it.

      You are, for some reason, offended by the use of the word magic. I think they are interchangeable synonyms. Magic, miracle or supernatural; call it what you like. They are each imaginary. There is no evidence for any of them.

      ~My beliefs, or yours, are irrelevant to proper use of language.

      Again, my use of the word magic was not improper, as many others have pointed out. Disrespectful? Perhaps, but I am of the opinion that ridiculous beliefs deserve ridicule.

      ~Since I do not believe in magic, you are either an idiot or..no, you are just an idiot. But what are ya going to do eh?

      What would you call it if I were to turn a bottle of water into a bottle of wine with a little abracadabra? What do you call wishing for something and SHAZAM! it happens! I call that kind of nonsense magic and you call it a belief that deserves respect. No, thanks.

      August 10, 2011 at 1:16 am |
    • Lycidas

      @devolvedDA- Oy, plz go study up on Wiccanism will you. They actually use the term magic/magik in their religion. That's a good enough reason not to mix it up in other ppl's beliefs I feel. Heck, under a lot of ppl's thinking we could call a lot of the unknown in science magic.
      Behold boys and girls...the edge of the black hole where the very fabric of space and time intermingle and break all known laws of physics. How does it do it?? We don't know...it's magic.
      But of course referencing something one does not understand blankly as "magic" would be incorrect to do. Whether it's a faith, science or life in general.

      August 10, 2011 at 1:50 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Lee- (note for the future...mark your statements so they are a bit clearer to follow. When we all keep quoting one another it can get a bit garbled)

      "Because the burden of proof is on the positive claim. The claim in this case being that Rick Perry et al have a god that answers prayer."

      ~I guess you need to ask Rick Perry since he is the one that made a claim.

      "I gathered earlier that you were ok with the use of the term "magic" when used to describe other religions' supernatural claims, but continually reject the term when used to.describe your supernatural claims. Was I wrong?"

      ~You gathered wrong. I do not like the term to be used in the manner it has been used on these boards. Were ppl use it ignorantly and incorrectly. The only time "magic" as a term should be used is when it's referring to stage magic or in such religions that express use of magic like Wiccanism. Of course even then one needs to make sure their is a difference listed.

      "You expect respect for faith? Why would anyone respect belief despite lack of evidence? In no other aspect of life is faith considered virtuous. Why religion?"

      ~No you silly piece of flotsam. I expect ppl to respect one another by not insulting another person's faith for no good reason.
      Virtuous eh? Your mother is a wh_or_e. That was ok right? Or do you ahve faith that I am incorrect in this and I was being rude for no good reason. Should I respect the views you have about your mother...whether your aspects of her is correct or not? Think on it.

      "Atheism, by definition, is a lack of belief, not a belief, let alone faith. Don't lump atheism in with religion when it is in fact a lack thereof."

      ~I see no reason why I cannot. You don't want to use terminolgy correctly...but I have to? You hypocrite.
      But whether you like it or not, there are atheists that want evangelize as much as any Christian.

      "You are, for some reason, offended by the use of the word magic. I think they are interchangeable synonyms. Magic, miracle or supernatural; call it what you like. They are each imaginary. There is no evidence for any of them."

      ~Evidence does not make a definition any different now does it? There are differences whether you like it or not. I am offended because the term being used is not correct and the term is being used in a manner that is belittling to a faith. Or do you think most of the ppl on here is using such terms as "sky wizard" or "magic man" in any manner other than insulting?

      "Again, my use of the word magic was not improper, as many others have pointed out. Disrespectful? Perhaps, but I am of the opinion that ridiculous beliefs deserve ridicule."

      ~What can I say...your are rude and ignorant. BTW, group-think does not make something right.

      "What would you call it if I were to turn a bottle of water into a bottle of wine with a little abracadabra?"

      ~That would be a first since no one ever used a little abracadabra to ever do that before.

      "What do you call wishing for something and SHAZAM! it happens!"

      ~Don't know...never had the expierence happen to me. Have you? BTW, leave Captain Marvel out of this...sorry, couldn't resist.

      "I call that kind of nonsense magic and you call it a belief that deserves respect. No, thanks."

      ~"Nonsense magic"...interesting...care to explain sensible magic? But in the end, you are welcome to your opinion, no matter how disrespectable or incorrect it is. It's your right.

      August 10, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Albert/Lycidas

      Nice long post that says absolutely nothing.

      All religion, all of it, every single one, relies in some form or fashion on the use of means believed to have supernatural power over natural forces, or according to Merriam-Webster, Magic.

      The fact that you do not like the word or feel offended for others when people who understand english and can read a dictionary point out that you are all believers in magic. You may call it what you will, but much like a sanitary engineer, don't expect everyone to stop calling you a garbage man.

      August 10, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • Lee

      @Lycidas- (note that I left the dash mark next to your comments, distinguishing them from mine)

      ~I guess you need to ask Rick Perry since he is the one that made a claim.

      I assumed that you were defending Rick Perry and prayer from my comment. Which led me to believe that you believe in intercessory prayer. Am I incorrect in either of those assumptions?

      ~You gathered wrong. I do not like the term to be used in the manner it has been used on these boards. Were ppl use it ignorantly and incorrectly. The only time "magic" as a term should be used is when it's referring to stage magic or in such religions that express use of magic like Wiccanism. Of course even then one needs to make sure their is a difference listed.

      This is apparently an issue of semantics. If there is a difference between miraculous, supernatural and magical it is negligible in reality because none of them can be shown to exist in reality.

      ~No you silly piece of flotsam. I expect ppl to respect one another by not insulting another person's faith for no good reason.
      Virtuous eh? Your mother is a wh_or_e. That was ok right? Or do you ahve faith that I am incorrect in this and I was being rude for no good reason. Should I respect the views you have about your mother...whether your aspects of her is correct or not? Think on it.

      I respect people, but not beliefs – especially beliefs with out evidential support. I have not insulted you, nor your mother. The same can no longer be said about you.

      Your faith analogy fails on a number of levels. First there is evidence that my mother is not a w_ho_re. Second, one cannot prove a negative, so it doesn't take faith to disbelieve because disbelief is the default position.

      ~I see no reason why I cannot. You don't want to use terminolgy correctly...but I have to? You hypocrite.
      But whether you like it or not, there are atheists that want evangelize as much as any Christian.

      Atheism is easily defined as a lack of belief in a god or gods. The prefix A means "without." The word theism means "belief in a god or gods". Miraculous, supernatural and magical, however, can all be found on the same entry in a thesaurus. That makes my comparison valid, however insulting you take it.

      There are atheists who "evanglize" but it is usually a reaction to over-reaching religion. For example – a governor who holds a Christian prayer rally in blatant disregard to the first amendment.

      ~Evidence does not make a definition any different now does it? There are differences whether you like it or not. I am offended because the term being used is not correct and the term is being used in a manner that is belittling to a faith. Or do you think most of the ppl on here is using such terms as "sky wizard" or "magic man" in any manner other than insulting?

      I make fun of people's beliefs because people's beliefs are often unjustified and outright ridiculous. If I believed in something synonomous with magic I would expect my beliefs to be challenged, too. I make fun of beliefs, but not of people or their mothers. The same cannot be said for you.

      ~What can I say...your are rude and ignorant. BTW, group-think does not make something right.

      I agree that group think doesn't make something right. For instance, there are 30,000 sects of Christianity, at least 29,999 of which are wrong.

      ~"Nonsense magic"...interesting...care to explain sensible magic? But in the end, you are welcome to your opinion, no matter how disrespectable or incorrect it is. It's your right.

      Its called context. Try reading the whole sentence while keeping in mind prior sentences within the paragraph. What I was calling magic, was the nonsensical water into wine "miracle" or the "miracle" of prayer.

      But since you ask, I can't explain sensible magic. Nor sensible miracles. Nor senible supernature. Its all nonsensical.

      August 10, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • Lycidas

      I respect people, but not beliefs – especially beliefs with out evidential support. I have not insulted you, nor your mother. The same can no longer be said about you. Your faith analogy fails on a number of levels. First there is evidence that my mother is not a w_ho_re. Second, one cannot prove a negative, so it doesn't take faith to disbelieve because disbelief is the default position.

      ~If you respect ppl, you should show a little respect for them by not insulting something dear to them..correct? I mean, you took offense when I insulted the concept you have of your mother. Why were you offended? She was not hurt in any way, but your aspect of her was. The same could be said for a person's aspect of their faith. Don't insult one's faith any more than you would want the aspect of your mother insulted. The anology stands.

      August 10, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Godpot- go look up what the good ppl at MW actually says. You will see that neither definition of "religon" or "magic" does the two mention the other. Read before you guess.

      August 10, 2011 at 4:07 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "I make fun of people's beliefs because people's beliefs are often unjustified and outright ridiculous."

      So you are being rude by basing other ppl's beliefs off of your limited knowledge and life experiences...ok.

      August 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "Second, one cannot prove a negative, so it doesn't take faith to disbelieve because disbelief is the default position."

      Ah..the classic atheist hiding hole...proving the negative. I never ask anyone to prove the negative. But statements such as God does not exist implies much still that can be proven.
      Who created God? Where was the concept of God created? Why?

      Can you answer any of those questions with strong evidence?

      I always think it's sad when atheists, those who bring up so much about logic, reason and evidence..get's so intellectually lazy and hide behind the ol "proving the negative".

      August 10, 2011 at 4:14 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "Ah..the classic atheist hiding hole...proving the negative. I never ask anyone to prove the negative. But statements such as God does not exist implies much still that can be proven.
      Who created God? Where was the concept of God created? Why?

      Can you answer any of those questions with strong evidence?"

      One can indeed prove a negative. I think what is often meant by this claim is that one cannot prove something that has no falsifiable hypothesis. The hypothesis that there is a god is not falsifiable.

      As for your other questions, they are just as pointless as asking someone to prove there is a god. To paraphrase a previous poster, using your logic, since you cannot answer who created god and where and why was the concept of a mermaid created, mermaids must exist. It's bad logic, to say the least. Yet another pointless straw man argument, distracting from the main point. Kudos.

      August 10, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Stevie-
      "As for your other questions, they are just as pointless as asking someone to prove there is a god."

      ~I doubt many atheists would agree with you on the second half of your sentence...for some, it's their bread and butter in these debates.

      "To paraphrase a previous poster, using your logic, since you cannot answer who created god and where and why was the concept of a mermaid created, mermaids must exist."

      ~I never....NEVER...came to that conclusion. Don't put words in my mouth. When I ask such things of atheists and they cannot answer, the wise answer should be "I don't know." There is never fault or foul for not knowing something...right?

      "It's bad logic, to say the least. Yet another pointless straw man argument, distracting from the main point. Kudos."

      ~It would be bad logic if anyone actually came to that conclusion. Thankfully...no one did. Plz learn what a straw man argument is and how to apply it properly. It would do you a load of good.

      August 10, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • Lee

      ~If you respect ppl, you should show a little respect for them by not insulting something dear to them..correct? I mean, you took offense when I insulted the concept you have of your mother. Why were you offended? She was not hurt in any way, but your aspect of her was. The same could be said for a person's aspect of their faith. Don't insult one's faith any more than you would want the aspect of your mother insulted. The anology stands.

      The analogy of having faith in god versus faith in my mother not being a w_ho_re was refuted in my last post. The analogy you seem to be making about insulting belief versus insulting my mother makes even less sense. Beliefs are different than family members. You said, and I quote, "Your mother is a w_ho_re." That is far more insulting than using an applicable synonym to describe a particular belief that one may or may not have. You insulted me mulitple times, then my mother. I accurately described what Rick Perry asked American's to do. I'd say those are very different.

      Maybe you draw the comparison because you put your imaginary deity on the same level as an actual family member. Interesting what religion does to people...

      August 10, 2011 at 5:18 pm |
    • Stevie7

      "I never....NEVER...came to that conclusion. Don't put words in my mouth. When I ask such things of atheists and they cannot answer, the wise answer should be "I don't know." There is never fault or foul for not knowing something...right?"

      My apologies, I guess I just thought there was a point to you asking those questions. Apparently not.

      August 10, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "My apologies, I guess I just thought there was a point to you asking those questions. Apparently not."

      There is, sad to say..you don't get it so let me educate you.
      Atheists, for all there bluster about evidence this and science that, can't really prove what they say when they claim there is no god. By claiming there is no god or what-have-you, they are making a claim that someone at some time made it all up. But there is no more evidence of that than there is about a god being real.

      The point....they are no better than many of those that have a faith. They are simply too stubborn to admit it.

      August 10, 2011 at 5:28 pm |
    • coworker

      If I were your co-worker I would be angry that you spend all day blogging and not working. If only you were more interested in docking equipment than the magic man in the sky.

      -sigh-

      August 10, 2011 at 5:31 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "The analogy of having faith in god versus faith in my mother not being a w_ho_re was refuted in my last post."

      ~No more so than those of a faith saying that God does exist. You gave no evidence and let's be honest. You are basing you claims on what you feel, not really what you exactly know. In your mind you have an aspect or concept of your mom that doesn't begin to express who she really is. You have refuted nothing and hold onto a faith.

      "The analogy you seem to be making about insulting belief versus insulting my mother makes even less sense. Beliefs are different than family members."

      ~Not really. There are those that hold the love of their faith closer than a love of family members. Honestly...for some, faith is a bigger driving force than family.

      "You said, and I quote, "Your mother is a w_ho_re." That is far more insulting than using an applicable synonym to describe a particular belief that one may or may not have. You insulted me mulitple times, then my mother."

      ~Liar. I stand by my observations of you provided by the information before me that you have provided in a form of comments. If you are offended, maybe you need to modify how your write. Why be offended by certain terms I use? Obviously you could care less how inappropriate terminolgy affects others. As for your mother...I did not insult her in anyway. I insulted the image YOU have of her. Unless she is right next to you reading over your shoulder, I never insulted her at all. Just the treasured concept of her you have in your mind.

      "Maybe you draw the co.mparison because you put your imaginary deity on the same level as an actual family member. Interesting what religion does to people..."

      ~You may guess all you want on my faith. I love it when ppl end up having to attack me instead of the topic. A fallacies, the ignorant athests eat them up. Funny, I thought you only relied on evidence and facts 😉

      August 10, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • Lee

      There is, sad to say..you don't get it so let me educate you.
      Atheists, for all there bluster about evidence this and science that, can't really prove what they say when they claim there is no god. By claiming there is no god or what-have-you, they are making a claim that someone at some time made it all up. But there is no more evidence of that than there is about a god being real.
      The point....they are no better than many of those that have a faith. They are simply too stubborn to admit it.

      Let me educate you on atheism. As an athiest, I simply lack belief. I don't "claim there is no god." I simply haven't been presented with suffiecient evidence to justify belief in a god or gods. Belief is different from claiming knowledge. I am an agnostic atheist – agnostic meaning I don't know and atheistic meaning I don't beleive. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't have faith and no amount of projection on your part will change that.

      August 10, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @coworker- "docking equipment"...and why should anyone care what you have to say? Being a blue collar worker means very little here in a debate about theology/

      August 10, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "Let me educate you on atheism. As an athiest, I simply lack belief. I don't "claim there is no god." I simply haven't been presented with suffiecient evidence to justify belief in a god or gods."

      ~That is a reasonable position.

      "Belief is different from claiming knowledge. I am an agnostic atheist – agnostic meaning I don't know and atheistic meaning I don't beleive."

      It sounds like you have given in to the Absurd. That's not an insult...reference Albert Cadmus's "The Myth of Sisyphus".

      August 10, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Liesideious..what is the differences between wiicca and christaianity.. neither is proved and both believe in the supernatural. You have a traditional view that your belief is the real one.. Magic is trick that a human being can perform to give us an illusion, and the illusion of miracles are used to delude us into believing it is proof of a god .

      August 10, 2011 at 8:23 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @devolvedDNA-
      "what is the differences between wiicca and christaianity"

      ~You mean you don't know the histories or figures within each of them? Go read a book.

      "neither is proved and both believe in the supernatural."

      ~And your point is? There are many things not proven but I doubt you would put them in with all unproven things. Even if the idea of them might seem supernatural. Like your belief you are loved. You can't prove it, but I bet you think you are loved and for most humans that tends to be somewhat supernatural in some ways.

      "You have a traditional view that your belief is the real one"

      ~You don't really have any idea what my faith and beliefs are. I suggest you quit guessing before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have. But as far as my beliefs go, I question them quite a bit...but none of you have given anything up that would make me change my mind. Your arguments are feeble.

      "Magic is trick that a human being can perform to give us an illusion, and the illusion of miracles are used to delude us into believing it is proof of a god ."

      ~Oddly enough, I do believe miracles do not make believers. Your makeshift definiton of magic comes closer to stage magic than what amgic tends to be in certain religions.

      August 10, 2011 at 9:33 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      liesideous. wicca and christianity are the same unproven belief in the supernatural, what makes one any more real than others .. You are correct i do not know, or do i care, which of the supernatural beings you want to love you in order to survive, but you do not have any proof other than a mental image of this being. For all of your blustering at the end of the day you are pack to defending a phantom. You no longer see magic.. the sun "rises" because science has told you what it is.. no longer magic.. your pagan ancestors would have considered it as such.

      August 14, 2011 at 5:23 am |
    • Lycidas

      @devolvedDNA- "wicca and christianity are the same unproven belief in the supernatural, what makes one any more real than others "

      ~first, being proven or not is irrelevant to the fect that they are important to ppl and therefor should have some level of respect...not for the faith itself, but for the fact of it's importance to a fellow human being

      "You are correct i do not know, or do i care, which of the supernatural beings you want to love you in order to survive, but you do not have any proof other than a mental image of this being."

      ~I have no mental image of his or anyone's being. Now if you mean that I have a human perspective on the being of my faith...that I do. But then again, we all have a human perspective on everything.

      "For all of your blustering at the end of the day you are pack to defending a phantom."

      ~You always have a habit in making a topic about the opposition? I am defending what is correct. I am sorry that you feel it is ok to use terms and ideas in an ignorant fashion. You have the incorrect view that I am doing this because of some possible faith I have. If someone is wrong, whether atheist or christian...hindu or wiccan..I will point it out. Just as I have done with you.

      "You no longer see magic.. the sun "rises" because science has told you what it is.. no longer magic.. your pagan ancestors would have considered it as such.""

      ~What my ancestors may have thought is irrelevant. Just as it would be irrelevant what your ancestors thought.

      August 15, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
  11. The Bobinator

    Everyone knows that prayer becomes more powerful if everyone is in the same area together.

    Wait...

    August 8, 2011 at 8:43 am |
  12. fernace

    I live in Texas with Perry as my governor! The jobs you're talking about are part-time & low-min wage! But trust me, Texans are happy to have them! What we are not so happy about is how all our necessity programs have been slashed to ribbons of what they used to be! I'm talking education, healthcare, retirement plans of government workers, on& on! Things are bad enough right now, lets not make it worse by enertaining the thought of this man in the WH, Ok!!

    August 8, 2011 at 2:16 am |
  13. fernace

    This is a blatant disregard for separation of church & state & 1 thing Guv'nah Goodhair is good at, is to blatantly disregard the wishes of others, or even the rules of governmental engagement!!

    August 8, 2011 at 2:00 am |
  14. Bizarro HeavenSent

    America has seen and heard Gov Perry pray. Now he needs to be seen shooting a gun and be heard making an anti-gay comment and then he will have locked in the uneducated vote.

    August 7, 2011 at 5:41 pm |
    • Frogist

      @Bizarro HeavenSent: He already has the anti-gay thing sewed up since he is being sponsored by American Family Association which has been classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center:
      http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/american-family-association

      August 8, 2011 at 3:35 pm |
  15. Rainy

    Wow, I wonder when Satan go a computer. He seems to be working overtime.

    August 7, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • Al

      Church lady? That you?

      August 7, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
  16. A_COL

    TX Gov Rick Perry & President Obama Both Invoke Their Faith into Their Politics … Yet It’s Perry That Gets Criticized?

    What’s all the hoopla about Gov Rick Perry and his faith? Here’s what the papers reported about how President Obama addressed his faith yet not a peep was heard about him being a religious zealot by the press:

    WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama said Thursday (3 Feb 11) that his faith has deepened during his two years in the White House … Speaking at the annual National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Obama said "I pray that God will show me and all of us the limits of our understanding and open our ears and our hearts to our brothers and sisters with different points of view, that such reminders of our shared hopes and our shared dreams and our shared limitations as children of God will reveal a way forward that we can travel together."

    …and here is what Gov Perry said and he’s being portrayed as a religions fanatic:

    HOUSTON – Texas Gov. and possible Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry led a crowd of roughly 30,000 Christians Saturday (6 Aug 11), asking God to help a nation he calls “in crisis,” at a Christian-revival event he organized “Father, our heart breaks for America, we see discord at home, we see fear in the marketplace, we see anger in the halls of government, …. As a nation, we have forgotten who made us, who protects us, who blesses us, and for that, we cry out for your forgiveness.”

    I would opine that reporting on the religious proclivities of our politicians is a distraction from the real issue concerning Americans… In the words of VP Biden, it a 3-letter word… JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! (Nobody ever accused Biden of being able to count).

    Rick Perry is the ONLY candidate of either party, declared or undeclared, that can boast of creating jobs while in political office! During the Obama reign, half of ALL jobs created in the US were created in Perry’s Texas! Pretty impressive! BY contract, according to the Fact Checker in the 19 Jun 11 Washington Post, “since Barack Obama has been president…there are 2.5 million fewer jobs.”

    Also with the exception of Ron Paul, Perry is also the ONLY candidate that has ever served in the Military which the President presides over as Commander-in-Chief. Perry was commissioned in the Air Force in 1972 out of the Texas A&M Corps of Cadets ROTC program and after completing pilot training, flew C-130 tactical airlift in the States, Middle East, and Europe. He left the Air Force in 1977as a captain. Ron Paul, a medical doctor, was an Air Force active duty flight surgeon from 1963 to 65.

    At least nobody will have to teach Perry how to salute or identify the insignias of rank. If you want to know how I really feel about all the candidates, check out my Blog at: http://old-soldier-colonel.blogspot.com/

    August 7, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • PraiseTheLard

      Now that you mention it, his religiosity is one reason I didn't vote or Obama... (or Gore before him...)

      As for being in the military... not all that spend time there come out with admirable qualities... Exhibit "A" would be "W"...

      August 7, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @A_COL

      Hey -Col...

      You Said: " TX Gov Rick Perry & President Obama Both Invoke Their Faith into Their Politics … Yet It’s Perry That Gets Criticized? "

      Well, I think 'one' of the main differences is that Gov. Perry was making a call as a politician for everyone... including those in political office e.g... other Governor's to join with him in his "The Response" which was arguably a "Christian" themed national prayer event. Calling for 'national' Christian-based prayer is certainly skating the line of a politician in office creating and supporting a religious event. And said event was undeniably Christian.

      So, with those 2 issues, I believe there is a problem with Gov. Perry in those respects.

      If... President Obama had tried to do the very 'same' thing, you would see the 'same' criticism's by not only the media, but by us here on the belief blogs, and many people all across the U.S.who are for as much 'separation of Government and Religion' as humanly possible.

      That's how I see that aspect IMHO.

      BTW– And this is just a 'hypothetical' question, but would you be happy if a Governor of some state somewhere, who possibly was a Muslim called for a day of prayer for everyone to 'Allah' ...? Regardless, if in theory, the 3 major monotheistic religions are praying to the same God... just calling it different names.

      I'm 'guessing' the answer would be 'no.' And, I and a mult-itude of others, would be right there with you.

      Respectfully,

      Peace...

      August 7, 2011 at 5:12 pm |
    • Frogist

      In terms of job creation, it's a bit of a numbers game. And Politifact only counts Gov Perry's claims of job creation as "Half True". Many states created jobs, not just Gov Perry's Texas. Fourteen, in fact. If you take population size into account and if we disregard the number of jobs lost (which Perry does to come up with his stats), California is the state with the most jobs created. Furthermore, 23 other states have lower unemployment rates than Texas which is still at a high of 8%. And then we have to ask, how much of that "job creation" is actually Perry's doing.
      http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2011/may/29/texas-public-policy-foundation/texas-public-policy-foundation-says-texas-created-/
      But even beyond his bending of the truth regarding statistics about his ability to create jobs, his penchant for mixing politics with religion where worshipping the Christian God is a cure all for economic woes is ridiculous and dangerous for the reasons that Peace2All, fernace, The Rationale and others have said. Even his const!tuents in Texas, refuse to support his religious shenanigans. A recent poll in the Houston Chronicle actually puts Pres Obama's approval rating at 51% in Texas, and Gov Perry's at 54%. Yes, if an election was held today, Texas might become a blue state..

      August 8, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
  17. lalo

    Lets tax all religions and cults. That will give the economy a serious

    August 7, 2011 at 9:55 am |
    • lalo

      Lets tax all religions and cults. That will give the economy a serious economic boost instead on relying on the old abracadabra.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:57 am |
  18. John Richardson

    Unfortunately for Rick Perry, you can't pray away the stupid.

    August 7, 2011 at 6:51 am |
    • Qwerty Elemeno

      You can't pray away anything except your time. Let's face it: religion is the delusional reinterpretation of reality. Anyone who says prayers work is only selectively interpreting positive coincidence, and they are ignoring the majority of incidents where it obviously does not work.

      Religion is for people who cannot accept the real world as it is. It's also for all those feeble-minded rubes who love believing that everyone else will go to hell for not thinking like them.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:04 am |
  19. Jim

    i want a medium-sized government that provides universal healthcare, appropriate public assistance, a strong national defense (never offense), is fiscally responsible, encourages capitalism and global free trade (with adequate oversight), develops a fair and simple tax code (raising taxes when necessary – like now), and prioritizes education.

    pro-choice, pro-gun, anti-religion

    basically, everybody hates me

    August 7, 2011 at 2:50 am |
    • Eric G

      Perfect! I could not have said it better. You should run for office.

      August 7, 2011 at 11:08 am |
    • Sam

      I absolutely agree, Jim. Could we get a party that represents us? Republicans and democrats clearly don't.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Jim

      Sounds good to me !

      Peace...

      August 7, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
    • Bibletruth

      Anti-religion or anti God? Maybe to you thats the same as you say you are pro choice (which means your OK with the murder of the unborn or God's creation). But I ask because many dont put it together and actually claim to be OK with the concept of God but dont like organized religion or even can manipulate their minds to accomodate abortion. Abortion is the willful taking of human life and I have never heard of a reasonable reason to do such a thing. When that life has a little more time to it the taking of it is legally termed murder, as it should be. Maybe the almost complete desensitizing re human killing is not a little the result of children on up knowing that tens of thousands of babies are "legally" killed each year, largely for convenience sake. so who actually cares if someone you dont know gets murdered 1000 miles away. Who really cares. Welcome to reality and cause and effect.

      August 8, 2011 at 9:15 am |
    • Civiloutside

      I suspect, and a very brief bout of Googling supports, that most Americans

      1) support the right of Americans to arm themselves for self-defense, but believe some gun restrictions are necessary,

      2) support the legal right for people to have access to abortions, but would like to see the numbers drastically reduced, and

      3) believe that a politician's stance on issues is more important than his religion.

      There is no party that represents these views. Probably why "independent" is a vastly larger voting block than either of the major parties.

      August 8, 2011 at 9:37 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Come on up to Canada – we'd be glad to have you.
      While our government isn't quite anti-religion, faith doesn't play a noticeable part in our elections.

      August 8, 2011 at 9:43 am |
    • Frogist

      @Jim: I'm not pro-gun by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't disagree with the rest of what you say.
      @Civiloutside: You get my vote.
      @Doc V: I love Michael Buble and am curious about poutine... but I can't get into the hockey and the winters... Does that make me half-Canadian? 😉

      August 8, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "..medium-sized government that provides universal healthcare..."

      I'd propose that the feasibility of just this part depends on ones definition of 'medium' and 'universal healthcare', especially as more and more baby-boomers retire.

      August 8, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @bibletruth,
      "...which means your OK with the murder of the unborn or God's creation..."
      If it weren't for modern man-made technology the infant mortality rate would much higher. Would you rather have it as presumably God intended, where every pregnancy was a health risk to mother and child both? I'm speculating that more children have died at the hand of a supposed God, over our 200,000+ year existence.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Bibletruth..you believe your god is a real thing, and as we speak he is allowing thousands of people to die of starvation in one of his favorite spots. if you think he is real then he is involved in mass murder..jusify that. You notice the Catholic church is selling its paintings and some assets to help with the starving.....no neither do I.

      August 8, 2011 at 8:42 pm |
  20. Jim

    i want a medium-sized government that provides universal healthcare, appropriate public assistance, a strong national defense (never offense), is fiscally responsible, encourages capitalism and global free trade (with adequate oversight), develops a fair and simple tax code (raising taxes when necessary – like now), and prioritizes education.

    pro-choice, pro-gun, anti-religion

    basically, everybody hates me 🙂

    August 7, 2011 at 2:42 am |
    • jimtanker

      Sounds reasonable to me. I'd vote for you.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:39 am |
    • Faith

      Anti-religious Americans should leave USA, the nation Christians created for godliness. American atheists = parasites with corrosives. Why don't Western atheists immigrate to atheistic nations? Only pleanty pagans and atheists immigrate or escape to Christendom.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:35 pm |
    • Anti Christian Taliban Schizophrenics

      Faith

      Anti-religious Americans should leave USA, the nation Christians created for godliness. American atheists = parasites with corrosives. Why don't Western atheists immigrate to atheistic nations? Only pleanty pagans and atheists immigrate or escape to Christendom.

      ----------–
      I see our resident schizophrenic Adelina is alive and well. lol

      August 9, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • Muneef

      Faith.

      Suggest you will say they can go to the UN and get a piece of land in the Middle East to start out as did the one before... So seems every time you have junk some where you are...simply you drive them out to bother others unrelated to your conflict of ideas and beliefs....!?!

      August 9, 2011 at 11:35 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.