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My Faith: How storytelling saved my life
The author in his college days, as seen in his student ID card from Yale.
August 7th, 2011
01:00 AM ET

My Faith: How storytelling saved my life

Editor's Note: Edward Grinnan is editor-in-chief of Guideposts magazine and author of "The Promise of Hope: How True Stories of Hope and Inspiration Saved My Life and How They Can Transform Yours."

By Edward Grinnan, Special to CNN

One spring day 25 years ago, I found myself perched on the 21st floor windowsill of a Denmark hotel room, holding what I thought would be my last alcoholic drink. I planned to give it up in a big way.

For all these years, I never told that story publicly, despite being the editor-in-chief of Guideposts, an interfaith magazine in which ordinary people tell their own stories of hope. My job is to persuade and help people tell those stories.

I’ve long known that such stories are our best medium for forging connections with our fellow human beings. They help span the breach of solipsism to unify the human experience.

We’ve been telling our stories since we could carve on cave walls, and probably longer. Stories are the roadmaps of our lives, and we're hard-wired for telling them.

Two generations before the internet and social networking, the minister and grandfather of the self-help movement, Norman Vincent Peale, founded Guideposts as a place for what would eventually come to be known as user-generated content.

Its origins were humble; the first issue of Guideposts was a 16-page booklet that featured World War I hero Eddie Rickenbacker on the cover.

Peale saw that by sharing our stories, we not only change ourselves, we change others. The act of telling our stories is transformative.

When I crawled into the Guideposts office in midtown Manhattan 23 years ago looking for a job, any job, I had no idea how being exposed to the power and beauty of true personal stories would change my life.

I was virtually homeless at the time and still recovering from the alcoholic seizures I'd suffered just a few weeks before.

I have no idea why I was even given a job, albeit an editorially menial one. I certainly wouldn’t have hired me.

Several years removed from getting a master’s degree in playwriting from Yale, I had been in and out of detoxes and rehabs, ERs, sobering-up stations and flophouses. I’d occasionally lived on the streets, smoked butts I’d found in the gutters and begged for change in the Hoboken, New Jersey, train station and in the shadows of the twin towers.

I’d hit bottom and now I was trying – again – to claw my way back. Little did I know that the path was right before me, aptly named Guideposts. Still, at the start I never intended to spend more than a year working for this odd little magazine.

Eventually, that changed. And so did I.

Yet two years ago, when I decided to write a book about a career spent helping people tell their stories, I had absolutely no intention of sharing my own. I’d never told it to my readers, or even my employers.

Yes, shame was a factor. Who wants to admit he’d sunk so low as to beg for change and sleep on benches? But it was also the nihilism of my 20s that I wanted to keep buried, that part of my life that felt more like an archeological dig than a personal story. Who was that person?

And I knew enough to understand that writing autobiographically can be like performing surgery on yourself without anesthesia.

No, I wanted my book to explain the basic steps for making personal changes that I’d picked up from the people who told their stories in Guideposts. People like Bill Irwin, who thru-hiked the 2,000-mile Appalachian Trail blind with only the assistance of his service dog, Orient.

Or the professional ballplayer who had to reconcile his shock at being traded like some commodity from the only major league team he had ever played for.

Or the woman who learned to forgive her cruel, abusive father when she was forced to care for him in her home as his life was drained by Alzheimer’s.

These were people whose stories moved and inspired me and made me look at my own life with not just a sense of hope and, eventually, to look at it through a spiritual lens.

I wanted the book to be just about them. But before I signed my book contract, my wife intervened.

“You’re going to tell you own story aren’t you, Edward?” she asked as we reviewed the contract. Sensing my reluctance, she made her case.

“You get people to bare their souls and share their stories with millions of others,” she said. “Your story will help people, too. Isn’t it time for a bit of your own medicine?” She held the pen out. “Look, Edward, I married you because of your story.”

So I made the difficult decision to include my own story in the book.

It wasn’t easy. I felt a little like the Wizard of Oz must have when the curtain was torn away. Honesty can be painful. I have greater respect than ever for the people who find the courage to help others by telling their stories in Guideposts.

And my wife was right - my story has helped others.

But mostly it has gotten me to finally look at the narrative roadmap of my life. I discovered that it is in telling our own stories that we truly find ourselves.

And it was in writing my story that I finally recognized a deeper and more ineffable plan.

When I see my life as a story, with all the richness and depth of art, the beauty and serendipity and redemption, the synchronicity of forces beyond my knowing, I understand finally that I am not necessarily the author.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Edward Grinnan.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Inspiration

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soundoff (602 Responses)
  1. martinipaul

    The burden of proof is on atheitism. The huge majority of mankind believes in some sort of religion. They always have.
    Do they not deserve proof before turning against their faith? And if no proof is offered, then why should they? Atheists. I know that God lives. Prove that he doesn't.

    August 7, 2011 at 10:33 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The opposite can be said. Why should I believe in your faith without evidence? Who cares how many people believe in a god? Millions of people thought the world was flat until it was proven otherwise. Belief proves nothing, and nothing is what you have when it comes to proof of a god.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:41 pm |
    • Free

      The proof exists. Science has basically demonstrated how all of the things we needed gods to explain before can now be understood far more simply, yet more eloquently for what they actually are.

      Meanwhile, there have been thousands of gods and all but a few have been abandoned as mere myths, human creations. Believers claiming to have a real, bona fide god to worship have to provide proof to those of us not willing to accept that claim blindly.

      August 7, 2011 at 11:31 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @martinipaul

      " The huge majority of mankind believes in some sort of religion. They always have. "

      This is the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad populum.' Just because a 'majority' believes in something, doesn't make it necessarily true.

      Hence, @tallulah13's 'flat earth' example fits here, as a perfect counter argument, that negates your assertion.

      Peace.

      August 8, 2011 at 1:41 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @martinipaul
      Truth is not determined by consensus.
      And even if it were, which God is running the show?
      If it's the Abrahamic God, which sect has it right?
      If the penalty for picking the wrong cult is eternal torment, you'd better be sure you've got the right one.
      Don't you find it the least bit absurd that the only tool to figure out which god is the right one is blind faith?
      Eenie meenie miney ... Quetzalcoatl!

      August 8, 2011 at 9:37 am |
    • Nonimus

      @Free,
      While I agree with your position, I don't think there is "proof" that God doesn't exist. There may be plenty of evidence supporting the position of no god(s), as you mentioned, but that is not "proof".

      August 8, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    • fred

      So, it appears most on the thread have read the Bible, the Word of God. It is the one we know and the base of our Western Civilization. You cannot escape the influence of Hebrew God (same as Christ) simply by having been touched by our culture. That God has been written about and beleived in for 4,000 years plus. The Bible states man can never prove God it is impossible. So all this discussion says is we all believe in at least one thing the Bible says. Athiest and Christian and Jew are in agreement. This could be the beginning of an unholy trinity.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
    • Free

      Nonimus
      Yes, you are right, I used the wrong word. When speaking of gods none of us have any proof, but only levels of evidence that we either find compelling, or not. I still hold, however, that it is up to the believer to provide enough evidence to convince people that their god is real where the thousands of other examples have all been ruled myth. It's really like claiming to have a perpetual motion machine, which is easy to say works on paper, but to really convince people a working model must be provided to show that it does, in fact, work.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:28 pm |
    • Know What

      fred,

      Of course Western Civilization has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian "God". It was very popular.

      We have also have many influences of Greek/Roman/Egyptian/Celtic and other supernatural figures and philosophies which have been adhered to over the centuries by various cultures (and those people held onto their gods for thousands of years too).

      All English-speaking people honor the Sun (Sunday), the Moon (Monday), the god Tyr (Tuesday), god Woden (Wednesday), god Thor (Thursday), goddess Friga (Friday) and god Saturn (Saturday) every week... and god Janus (January), the pagan ritual of Februa (February), god Mars (March), goddess Maia (May), and goddess Juno (June) every year. July and August were named after early Roman Emperors.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • fred

      know what
      Correct, but note those gods are small compared to God. This is the year 2011 A D Jesus birth will forever divide BC and AD. God and gods have been around because man is seeking always looking for the edge of the Universe trying to reach God. We want to know why and know what. The why is revealed by God to man because we cannot imagine the things of God. God has left many sign posts and even athiests agree as to much of what the Bible says they just cannot attribute it to God. This reason is also fully explained.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:08 pm |
    • Seriously....

      "man is seeking always looking for the edge of the Universe trying to reach God."

      No they're not, they simply want to see if they can find the edge because our intelligence builds on itself. It's nothing more that curiosity that has nothing to do with a god.. Just like Columbus wanted to see if he could find the edge of the ocean. It doesn't mean we are searching for a god. It's amazing how Christians love to embellish their lives to make it seem like it is more than it is because you can't deal with reality. People like you are scary.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • Know What

      fred,

      Guess who made that BC/AD change to the calendar? A very scary and powerful 6th century church - it took many centuries after the monk came up with the idea for it to be implemented to any great extent.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini#History

      August 8, 2011 at 7:19 pm |
    • fred

      Seriously,
      I ran the two together. Man seeks the edge of the universe but man also with the same mind seeks to know God and the purpose of existance. Man's brain cannot find the edge of God or even touch what is the mind of God. It is ouside our capacity. Plato and those before and after him all end up with seeing the effect but not the cause. Bottom line is most get hung up on how order resulted from chaos and end up recognizing some unknown force behind the effect.. The old it takes a watchmaker to assemble a fine swiss watch.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:35 pm |
    • fred

      Know What
      Jesus issued a strong warning about that church and how evil ones will dress up like shepards to fleece the flock. I have yet to find any fault in the words of Jesus have you? I will start to use 2011 CE if you can say thank you Jesus!

      August 8, 2011 at 7:41 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Soundas a bit like Absurdism.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
    • fred

      Entil'za

      Wrong, we were talking about Catholicism

      August 8, 2011 at 7:59 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @Free,
      "...it is up to the believer to provide enough evidence to convince people that their god is real where the thousands of other examples have all been ruled myth."

      Agreed, definitely.
      I would even say that the believers in the supernatural have yet to provide any evidence whatsoever and therefore I'm surprised it is even discussed, but that is probably a discussion for another time, perhaps on human nature.

      August 9, 2011 at 10:32 am |
  2. a person of the Name

    @linCa I ment for all to read it. As far as I'm concern your opion holds no purpose here ecept to argue.

    August 7, 2011 at 10:25 pm |
    • Amistavia

      What's the matter, can you just pray us away?

      August 7, 2011 at 10:42 pm |
    • LinCA

      @a person of the Name

      You said "@linCa I ment for all to read it. As far as I'm concern your opion holds no purpose here ecept to argue."
      But the "Reply" function is to allow comments and counter arguments to stay together. This allows participants and readers to follow a discussion on a particular topic, while allowing other discussions to go on without interruption.

      Posting a reply to a particular comment as a new post doesn't help the discussion.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:48 pm |
  3. a person of the Name

    You know God works wonders in our lives. All the proof I need is the things He's done for me and those around me. I've seen cancer healed. I've seen ppl be in freak accidents and told they'll never walk again get up and walk a few days later. Just because you don't here about the proof doesn't mean its not there.

    August 7, 2011 at 10:20 pm |
    • frank

      Stop lying.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:21 pm |
    • Amistavia

      When was the last time you saw an amputee grow a limb back?

      August 7, 2011 at 10:43 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I've seen good christians die of cancer. I've heard of horrible accidents that have killed innocent people. I've known children who have been abused by the christian people who should have protected them. Your god is pretty random.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:43 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @a person of the name
      When I was a youngster, I was friends with a fellow who suffered from a degenerative eye disease.
      His parent were devout evangelicals who assured their son that God would cure him if he was a good enough Christian.
      Each day his eyesight became slightly worse.
      Each day he prayed and wondered what he had done to so anger God.

      What a terrible thing to do to a child.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
    • Free

      What you fail to remember is that for every miracle cure there is a freak accident, or a unexpected death during a routine procedure, or just plain miserable bad luck. Call them "anti-miracles"; when everything just goes terribly wrong. Miracles, luck, what have you are merely the rare cases way beyond the average on either end of the experience curve. Maybe the favorable cases just get better media coverage is all?

      August 8, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • fred

      For the atheist there are low probability events occurring and to the prayerful Christian there are miracles occurring sometimes before their very eyes. God can does fix everything He wants, when He wants and how He wants to. The important thing is our heartfelt response. I thank God all the time for low probability events / “miracles”. It is called a relationship. I am thankful for the privalidge of that relationship. Throughout history some have chosen to walk with God others chose their own way. God revealed himself through actual miracles in Jesus for a short period of time with the express purpose fulfilling prophecy and presenting the Jew and Gentile proof that Christ is who He claims to be. We do not get those kind of miracles today.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Your god appears to give miracles quite randomly. Just as randomly as if he didn't exist.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:05 am |
    • fred

      Tallulah13,
      Miracles by Jesus in His time on earth had specific purpose as recorded in the Bible. There were also many more that were not recorded so we do not know anything about those. The Apostles after his resurection also did miracleous things because Jesus gave them powers for a period.
      Today we are in that period where if someone walked around healing and crippled kids grew legs recieved a new set of eyes etc. that person would be crushed by the weight of those in need. Seems you are right in that the miracles are along the line where those with faith can say yeah Jesus and those who doubt can site probability for the healing and say nay Jesus.
      Faith requires a great deal of seeking. This is how hearts are separated between those who truely seek after Gods truth and those that seek after something else.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:20 am |
    • tallulah13

      fred, you're making things up. How do you know that miracles occurred that we don't know about if we don't know about them? How do you confirm miracles actually happened in the first place, since there is no evidence that the bible is true? You see miracles because you want to see them.

      August 9, 2011 at 1:46 am |
    • fred

      Tallulah13
      I know there were many more miracles because the apostle John said so in 65 AD and Jesus said they would perform many miracles greater than what Jesus performed after they are filled with the Holy Spirit. I know 3,000 were saved at Pentacost and hundreds of millions perhaps over a billion have heard the Good News. If you say no fair using the Bible for any thing that has to do with miracles and God there is nothing. Those who say you cant use the bible because it is made up ignore the fact historians and archeologists have found artifacts going back to Genesis that support the given accounts. Then thy backtrack and say oh, well you cant prove God really said that. So the argument always comes down to something that cannot be proven. Even millions of conversions and 100's of thousands of miracles are cast asside because it is possible to expain the even another way. Great, people tell you this is what I saw and you (even though you were not there) say did you really or was it all in your mind. This is what will happen in every case.
      This is the nature of the unbeliever. God knows this and for that reason said flat out to the unbeleiver I will not give you another sign except the sign of Johah. And that is how it remains to this day and until the end times. (according to the bible which I cannot use).
      Now here is the foolishness of it all. Athiests believe there is no God because they cannot prove there is no God. I say the best one can acheive honestly is to be agnostic.

      August 9, 2011 at 2:10 am |
    • Tallulah13

      The only thing you can prove with the bible is that ancient humans knew the geography and events of their time and told the stories long enough for someone to write them down. This applies to other ancient texts, as I have pointed out on more than one occasion, citing the Iliad. There is not a single shred of evidence that the supernatural events in the bible (or the Iliad, for that matter) took place. Why on the world would I believe something for which there is no proof?

      August 9, 2011 at 2:43 am |
    • fred

      Tallulah13
      God is so far outside the relhm of human understanding we will never in our state understand even how to begin to know God. For this reason God revealed himself to us the best way possible and that took generations before we even begin to understand Christ in the flesh walking about as a man. I can only say I have seen what God has revealed and thus know God based upon what he has shown. Others reject what God has revealed and the miraculas part of all is only those who truly wish to see God and have a heart of worship seek that path which God has revealed. At the same time God keeps that pathway open and all you need to do is ask Jesus honestly to reveal the truth, the good news in a way you can understand. Jesus comes through every time.....there is another miracle.

      August 9, 2011 at 3:01 am |
    • tallulah13

      Okay, Fred, so you have this god who is nobody who can understand, who revealed himself to Bronze Age people who had been inventing gods right and left, but he can’t even convince the entire populace. This god also lacked the ability or desire to reveal himself to people outside of the immediate geographical area. This god apparently blew his miracle budget on these Bronze Age people, so can’t or won’t reveal himself to modern people who have replaced creating gods with learning why things happen - the very same people who would probably welcome such a revelation because they search for truth. The best proof of existence this god has is a compilation of old stories, some of them fantastic in nature, but no more so than in any mythology.

      Do you think maybe the reason your god is unknowable is because he doesn't exist?

      August 9, 2011 at 11:01 am |
  4. a person of the Name

    Amen... PhilG

    August 7, 2011 at 10:13 pm |
    • LinCA

      Still haven't figured out the "Reply" feature, I see.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:16 pm |
  5. PhilG.

    Mr.Grinnan met his demons and has succeeded in finding some peace.

    I hope he realizes that these demons are just a breathe away and always waiting to take him down and his happiness away.

    He owes only himself the right to stay out of the depths of despair.

    You cannot help people when you are drowning in a nightmare..

    Anyone can go to rock bottom and in record time-hopefully people reading his story will know that they don't need to stay down.

    Stay well Mr.Grinnel,you don't owe anyone your happiness and it always takes you to keep it there.

    I hope God helps you keep the demons away.

    August 7, 2011 at 10:10 pm |
  6. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    The "Old" Testament is just that, OLD! The "New" Testament, preaches the Words of Christ Jesus and His many parables give Light to those who are hurting emotionally and physically and socially and yes culturally. The Words of Christ Jesus are prescious to the Worldly Infirmed in order that they might be able to Cope with their rather; Non-Opulent Living arrangements in societies around the world.

    August 7, 2011 at 9:49 pm |
    • Amistavia

      Go pray somewhere, nutter.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:55 pm |
  7. Victoria

    This is a beautifully piece. Very well written too.

    August 7, 2011 at 9:03 pm |
  8. sun

    hey atheists:

    Do u believe in ethics of any kind at all? From your posts looks like you want society to be free from any form of ethics...which makes u the caveman.

    Grow up caveman we want to live in a civilized society that has ethics .

    August 7, 2011 at 8:49 pm |
    • satan

      @sun

      leave them alone, they are my children....upon whom i bestowed my intelligence and thought process.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:58 pm |
    • LinCA

      @sun

      You said "Grow up caveman we want to live in a civilized society that has ethics"

      May I recommend that you critically evaluate the morality espoused by your bible? I mean, actually think about it and rationally evaluate what it says. Please also consider that the morality of the bible is that of 2000 years ago. You may want to be careful who you call a caveman.

      Here is a video that might help you get started:

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSS-88ShJfo&w=640&h=390]

      August 7, 2011 at 9:11 pm |
    • true

      @satan

      True some of the greatest thinkers in the history of mankind have been proved to be Men of faith.
      on the other hand some of the greatest thinkers among the atheist are those that post their comments on the belief blog

      August 7, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • tallulah13

      You are very silly. Humanity created "ethics" long before the bible was written. Otherwise, there would have never been cities or civilizations, which means there would never have been no Christ or bible. Some of us simply don't need a supernatural threat or reward to be a good person. If you aren't capable of being good without god, you are not a good person, just someone who took a bribe to behave.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:18 pm |
    • sun

      @Linca

      oh, so it is the Moral values as taught by Bible against what you say is Moral...and you want to advocate your moral standards to the universe..get over yourself..

      I the Sun am baffled how you could you think you can come up with any moral values for all of humanity.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:18 pm |
    • sun

      @tallulah13

      so define Good for me? what is good for you is not good for me, why should i accept your defintion of good which comes from a mortal?

      August 7, 2011 at 9:20 pm |
    • Amistavia

      LinCA- You will find that none of the faith-heads will actually address this video. They know when they're beaten, they just won't admit it. Instead they will move on to some other insult of atheists or make some other absurd religious claim.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:22 pm |
    • LinCA

      @sun

      Morals from the bible:
      – Rape is OK
      – Murder is OK
      – Genocide is OK
      – Slavery is OK
      – Hate is OK
      – Human sacrifice is OK

      You can keep that rag. I on the other hand choose to be a decent human being.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:25 pm |
    • exotic princessof the dark

      @Amistavia

      u fell insulted? really what did Sun say to make u feel insulted..come hre my darling....

      August 7, 2011 at 9:28 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Amistavia

      You said "LinCA- You will find that none of the faith-heads will actually address this video. They know when they're beaten, they just won't admit it. Instead they will move on to some other insult of atheists or make some other absurd religious claim."

      I know. If they had half a brain, they wouldn't be believers.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:28 pm |
    • sun

      for earth's sake, would someone define Good for me.

      Good per Satan,
      LinCA,
      Amistavia
      tallulah13???

      August 7, 2011 at 9:30 pm |
    • tallulah13

      sun, since you don't seem to understand morality, let me help you: Treat others as you wish to be treated: If you see someone suffering, help them because you would want help in that situation. If you see someone harming others, stop them, because you would wish that someone would stop those who would harm you. Don't damage the place where you live because it you take care of your home, your home will take care of you. Respect the privacy of others, so that they will respect your privacy.

      Are you getting the drift? You don't need a bible or god to be a good person. You just have to understand that everyone deserves the same treatment as you wish for yourself. It's a very simple, but effective concept. If a person needs a threat or promise of reward to be good, they aren't a good person at all.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:31 pm |
    • sun

      @Linca

      Thou shall read the 10 commandments, if you are not able to understand the Bible start with New Testament. God taught his people LOVE and he expects all his followers to show LOVE & COMPASSION to all mankind.(Period)

      August 7, 2011 at 9:34 pm |
    • martinipaul

      true: thanks for the smile.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:42 pm |
    • LinCA

      @sun

      You said "Thou shall read the 10 commandments"

      The first 3 or 4 (depending on what flavor of religion they come from) are sheer nonsense as they pertain to worshiping mythical beings. All others are merely rules that were long in existence before they were made part of christianity. They tend to be part of the rules that every society has lived by for a lot longer than there have been christians.

      You said "if you are not able to understand the Bible start with New Testament. God taught his people LOVE and he expects all his followers to show LOVE & COMPASSION to all mankind.(Period)"

      I've read and understand the bible. I dismiss it as nonsense. It is not required to be a decent human being. You can get good stuff from it, but also some really nasty shit. It all depends on what parts you cherry-pick.

      I don't need the good parts to be decent and could sure do without the nasty stuff.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:49 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So sun, why do christians in this country try to legislate bigotry? What harm does it do to you that two consenting adults who happen to be of the same gender marry?

      Why did christians in the south fight so hard against equal rights for blacks? Why was a war fought over slavery? How can you say that the bible teaches compassion when so many people have been killed or mistreated in it's name? Where was the compassion for the Pequot women and children who were burned alive in their own homes by puritans? Where was this love for the jews who were tortured and killed for their faith? Where was the compassion for those people burned because they were believed to be witches, or the Inca who slaughtered in South America at the behest of a catholic priest when their king Atahualpa didn't immediately convert when seeing a bible?

      How can you say that the bible teaches this, when the bible has been used to excuse these atrocities? Something doesn't add up here.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:52 pm |
    • The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

      @ sun,

      Sun, younger Atheists like young Christians do tend to wreak of blatant wordisms. I too at Times! Ethics you say Sun? The learning characterizations of anyones' personality traits are peer-based personalisms that stay put come adulthood or are revised as Time progresses depending upon one's upbringing within their social cultures. Even in Adulthood one's ethics may change depnding upon one's revelations.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:04 pm |
    • sun

      I set last night and came back this morning to find that you are still orbitting around me, round and round and round...

      your pointless arguments and counter arguments will always revolve around the fact that God exists just like the earth you are destined to circle around the Sun round and round and round that is your destiny.

      you be happy with your round and round and round arguments around the word of God.

      While I am happy with my destiny of enlightening the world with the truth....

      August 8, 2011 at 8:44 am |
    • LinCA

      @sun

      You said "I set last night and came back this morning to find that you are still orbitting around me, round and round and round..."
      If you were the sun, you wouldn't have set last night nor would you have "come back" this morning, as those are phenomena of a vantage point on Earth. Also, sun set and sun rise are predominantly caused by the rotation of the Earth around its own axis, and only in small part by its orbit around the sun. From the perspective of the sun, there is no night or day.

      You said "your pointless arguments and counter arguments will always revolve around the fact that God exists just like the earth you are destined to circle around the Sun round and round and round that is your destiny."
      Without a single solitary shred of evidence for the existence of your god, or any god, believing that nonsense is no more rational or reasonable than believing in the Tooth Fairy. Even the childish belief in Santa Claus is more reasonable than your belief in your god, as St. Nicholas actually lived.

      You said "you be happy with your round and round and round arguments around the word of God."
      My arguments are never around the word of any god. There are no gods and therefor there are no words of god(s). My arguments are to show the boundless ignorance displayed by believers like you.

      You said "While I am happy with my destiny of enlightening the world with the truth...."
      It appears that you are merely spouting your delusions about your imaginary friend. There is no truth or enlightenment to be found anywhere in it.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:49 am |
    • Peace2All

      @sun

      I was reading the thread here, and happened to notice as the other posters began to dismantle your arguments with their strongly supported assertions, you, as most often 'believers' tend to do, began to get less and less specific, and... began to skate past their points, while bringing in more and more 'fluffy' scriptural references.

      Your last one, was basically... I'm right... your wrong, although I haven't provided a shred of proof, so let me make some va-gue reference about revolving around the sun, blah, blah...

      Typicaly 'believer' behavior when the debate starts to be tough, 'most' tend to resort to their 'fall-back' position... the bible.

      Regards,

      Peace.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:56 am |
    • tallulah13

      So in other words sun, you don't have a logical rebuttal to any of these statements.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:58 am |
    • fred

      Tallulah13,
      Peace2All
      LinCA

      Not sure why the 3 of you are so intent on proving something false if it does not exist. This presents a real problem in that you would not argue your position if something inside of you is not gnaw awing to break through the darkness. Shakespeare said thou dust protest too much. What’s up with that. Stop for one minute and consider you do not know what you do not know. Now, relax and ask yourself why do you do what you do? Please do not go off into self preservation mode be real and honest. What are you really fighting against. Pick one or two key words that come to mind. For example; I see you like to throw the word bigot around a lot on this site. If bigot is your top key word let me know, or fear etc. In case you are having trouble zeroing in on two key words, start with hate. I note a lot of repressed anger and hate surrounds typical replies. Be honest now what is it?

      August 8, 2011 at 11:24 am |
    • tallulah13

      Fred, perhaps you didn't read the post we are responding to, the one that called atheists unethical. I choose to defend myself against false accusations. I don't believe falsehoods should go unchallenged. I do not believe in a god because the more I look, the less evidence I can find. I put my faith in things that can be seen and proved.

      My question to you is why do you feel the need to write in a patronizing manner. Is it because you are afraid that if you hear too many reasoned arguments, you will lose your faith?

      August 8, 2011 at 11:36 am |
    • daisy prays

      @sun

      daisy prays for all those who are in need of knowing God's love in this blog, may they find healing and comfort in knowing that they are not here on earth by chance, they were created to be here at this time and this place to fulfil your purpose.May they find everlasting love ,peace and hope in you and you alone.

      August 8, 2011 at 12:02 pm |
    • friend

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzaLp3aL_f8&feature=player_detailpage

      August 8, 2011 at 12:07 pm |
    • fred

      Tallulah13
      You said:” why do christians in this country try to legislate bigotry”
      You said:” the bible has been used to excuse atrocities”

      Easy one first. You have a pattern where somehow Christians or the Bible / God are to blame for the bad things in this world. Let us simply look at the last 2000 years as a base. The Bible is clear in that killing and bringing harm to another is wrong period. The Bible is clear in that Christians are to love God and love one another and it is by this love others will be drawn to Christ. Well, we have failed because the image perceived is not the image demanded of a Christian. This should come as no surprise as Jesus said few will do this and further it is impossible for man to get this right. So all the evidence we have proves what Jesus said is right and has been right all along. People Christians or atheist will use any excuse that works to carry out their hearts desire. Some as Stalin enjoy killing or using weak religious types for their own personal gain while others like Hitler rally Christians to a false cause. These are all faults of man not God since evidence clearly shows Godly and ungodly men doing terrible things.

      Now as to bigotry. The Bible tells those who follow Christ how to live and build a relationship with God through Christ. Christians are not to legislate their belief on others. We are to tell of the good news and help others as best we can. That’s it no judging no forcing Gods ways on anyone. If Christ would not force the truth on those who do not want it why should His followers.

      August 8, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • Tallulah13

      So what you're saying is that christianity is no better than anything else at insuring the morality of it's followers. I could have told you that.

      August 8, 2011 at 12:32 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said "Not sure why the 3 of you are so intent on proving something false if it does not exist."
      I'm not trying to disprove the existence of any gods, as that is not possible. I am merely showing that believing in the existence of any god isn't rational or reasonable.

      You said "This presents a real problem in that you would not argue your position if something inside of you is not gnaw awing to break through the darkness."
      The gnawing isn't on the inside. It's incessant intrusion into my life by believers trying to impose their delusions on me.

      You said "Shakespeare said thou dust protest too much. What’s up with that. Stop for one minute and consider you do not know what you do not know."
      It isn't about what I don't know, or can't know. It's about what believers should know, yet refuse to even consider. It is fundamentally unknowable whether there are any gods. There isn't any evidence even suggesting there are any. Believing they exist, without any evidence in support, isn't reasonable.

      You said "Now, relax and ask yourself why do you do what you do? Please do not go off into self preservation mode be real and honest. What are you really fighting against."
      Ignorance and bigotry.

      You said "Pick one or two key words that come to mind. For example; I see you like to throw the word bigot around a lot on this site. If bigot is your top key word let me know, or fear etc. In case you are having trouble zeroing in on two key words, start with hate. I note a lot of repressed anger and hate surrounds typical replies. Be honest now what is it?"
      It isn't fear. It isn't hate. It really is the boundless ignorance and bigotry. And I use those terms because they describe the observed phenomena.

      If the ignorance ends, I have reason to believe that bigotry will decrease as well. Until, as a society, we get serious about the freedom of religion, we can expect these kinds of arguments to continue. But unless we stop accepting arguments based on religion as valid in a discussion about policies that affect everyone, we won't get rid of the bigotry.

      August 8, 2011 at 12:34 pm |
    • Civiloutside

      "The Bible is clear in that killing and bringing harm to another is wrong period."

      Actually, what the Bible is pretty clear on is that disobeying its god is wrong period. If god orders one to commit horrific atrocities (and he frequently does within those pages), then committing them is good and right.

      Of course, the problem there is that if god is invisible and personal, speaking to his followers only through there heart and minds, then there's no evidence to any outside observer that any atrocity is not good and right and commanded by god. For that matter, there's no assurance to the believer receiving such instructions that those commands are not constructs of his own mind ( or even that they weren't planted there by some other "god" that's just deceiving him).

      August 8, 2011 at 12:54 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA,
      I assume you have read the New Testament. Do you find Jesus to be an ignorant bigot ?

      August 8, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • fred

      Civiloutside,
      I restricted my reply to the last 2,000 years because I did not have time to give a history lesson as to culture of the chosen ones God was addressing in the old testament. You cannot even agree with the one simple truth Jesus clearly expressed how could one ever expect you to understand the more complicated truths.
      I know that if the president of the athiests would say "love your neighbor as yourself" you would quickly point out he knows nothing of love based on what he has said just in the last two weeks alone.

      August 8, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @fred

      Hey -fred...

      You Said: " @Tallulah13, @Peace2All, & @LinCA --Not sure why the 3 of you are so intent on proving something false if it does not exist. "

      I'll let my other fellow posters speak for themselves here, but I am not 'intent' on proving something false here. I, as I often do, have a fascination about logic/reasoning and language patterns...most specifically 'patterns of inference.'

      I was merely commenting on the total 'lack' of any cogent response by @sun in relationship to the other posters here, and as the discussion went forward, I was also commenting on @sun's continuing 'lack' of 'any' substantive fact-based reasoned response.

      @sun... finally, as most often a lot of 'believers' do... went on a ramble about 'revolving around the sun'... basically meaning read your bible... you guys don't understand the word of god, or some such nonsense.

      And that was it for me... no more, no less.

      I don't know, @fred maybe there is some deity/god that exists. I make no claims for or against in that regard.

      However, I will go after really bad critical thinking and logic that 'usually' (no always) happens to be provided by people of 'faith.'

      Respectfully,

      Peace...

      August 8, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said "I assume you have read the New Testament. Do you find Jesus to be an ignorant bigot ?"
      It is entirely irrelevant what I think Jesus is depicted as in the bible. He's not the one trying to force irrational beliefs on society. It's his followers that do.

      August 8, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA
      It does matter what Jesus said because he said we are to spread the good news, not condem, not judge, etc. Jesus addressed the people and made no attempt to change the government (give onto Cesar what is Cesars and onto the Lord what is the Lords). Christians simply need to get back to the truth the simple truth Jesus clearly expressed. You should know that truth (whether you believe any of it or not) so you can reject it with full knowledge of what it says.

      August 8, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • Civiloutside

      Fred – first of all, there is no president of the atheists.

      Secondly, my comment had absolutely nothing to do with the culture of the Israelites. It does not matter what's Jesus' general instructions were to his followers. Technically, "love thy neighbor as thyself" is an instruction he gave the Iaraelites during the Exodus as well. So was "thou shalt not commit murder," and "thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbor's." Yet just a few chapters later we have the Israelites waging genocidal war on several people's for the purpose of taking the cities those people built for their own use. This was done at God's command, and they were praised by him for doing it (and condemned for any acts of mercy that violated those commands). This clearly establishes the precedent that regardless of what your general instructions are for how good you're supposed to behave in the regular course of your life, god can and will order you to commit atrocity in specific instances and you had gosh darn better well drop what you were doing and make with the bloodletting. This is not a cultural issue, it is a response to specific commands from god.

      In other words, the general instructions can be and have been overridden by God's commands whenever and for whatever reason he so chooses, and it is good and right to obey. But... nobody is ever privy to those commands except the person being commanded (for some reason). There is literally no way that anyone can prove that anyone who claims to be acting on God's commands isn't – you can't even appeal to the Bible to tell you it must be wrong because god said in there not to do it, because even on the Bible he routinely commands people to do things in specific cases that are otherwise forbidden.

      August 8, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • sun

      The atheists have still not answered the question, who establishes moral law? If it is by man, then what is good for one man is not good enough for another.

      Let's face it, we can't just agree on some basics like whether debt ceiling should be raised or not, do you think you are capable of agreeing as humanity in defining what is right or wrong for all of humanity???-NO

      In conclusion there is a Moral law giver who is a supreme being and he is called 'God', the 'Creator'

      August 8, 2011 at 2:28 pm |
    • Laughing

      @sun

      That seems like an awfully big leap for someone who is taking their moral queues from a book that condones some pretty sick stuff. Keep in mind, has every country descended into chaos becaue we can't decide on what is morally good or bad? Forget god for a moment, how did we manage to create civilization and innovation if morality was given to us only 2,000 years ago? Please, use that brain that you have in your head, it will actually help you, I promise.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • FatAlbert

      "The Bible is clear in that killing and bringing harm to another is wrong period."

      Thous shalt not kill true meaning was murder not actually kill. Now try telling your literal interpretation to all those Christian military personnel that have had to kill for their country.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:36 pm |
    • Civiloutside

      Sun – I'll come right out and say it: the answer is that man is the creator of moral law. That law is a combination of reason, the needs and wants of any given society, and ingrained emotional responses based on the fact that we evolved in such a way that we thrive best as part of mutually interdependent communities. The fact that we can't agree doesn't mean we're not still responsible for it, it just means that what we think of as "moral law" is an ongoing conversation based on our combined and constantly evolving experience.

      The fact that humans don't agree perfectly on something in no way implies the existence of something else that does do it perfectly.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
    • FatAlbert

      Without religion, women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East.

      Without religion people would be more concerned with what they did with their lives, rather than what they avoided.

      Without religion, the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant.

      Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases.

      Without religion, a condom would control the scourge of AIDS and other STDs.

      Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it.

      August 8, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said "It does matter what Jesus said because he said we are to spread the good news, not condem, not judge, etc. Jesus addressed the people and made no attempt to change the government (give onto Cesar what is Cesars and onto the Lord what is the Lords). Christians simply need to get back to the truth the simple truth Jesus clearly expressed."
      It may matter to you and your fellow christians. It doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't matter for setting public policy.

      But, if it matters to christians then why are they so hell bent on condemning and judging gays?

      You said "You should know that truth (whether you believe any of it or not) so you can reject it with full knowledge of what it says."
      It's even simpler than that. Your religion is like a house of cards with a belief in a god as the foundation. Without that foundation the entire house comes crashing down. I have no reason to believe your god exists, ergo your religion is without foundation. I reject your religion, your holy book, your prophets and your god as entirely baseless.

      It has no place in the public realm.

      August 8, 2011 at 3:02 pm |
    • fred

      Civiloutside,
      David Siliverman elected president of the American Athiest

      I notice you insist on draging the discussion back to time and place 3,446 years ago because you think you found something that gives God a black eye. I cleared this up once before yet you insist on digging up the same old bone. If you spend 1% as much time looking for what is right about the God of the Hebrews as you now spend 100% of you time you would be amazed. You actually believe in God just not the God of the Hebrew. You have assembled a host of characteristics and attributes of God more real than I could come up with. Only problem is that God is the deceiver the one Jesus refered to as Satan the father of all lies, the same one the Sanhedrin used to kill and torture Christ and his followers and low and behold you are doing the same thing. Look in the mirror and say mirror mirror on the wall who is the biggest Sanhedrin of them all.

      August 8, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA
      You really need to read at least the words of Christ to see what he says as all your answers are right there.

      As to why Christians are picking on gays is not a correct statement. There are misguided Christians as well as terrorist Muslims etc. You appear sensitive to "gay" more than other responses from Christians. If I got on this web site and said dont murder, steal, covet, lust over a coworker on the job, lie to your bestfriend etc etc you would shrug it off. When laws were passed to stop bosses from groaping their employees I don't recall activist groups coming out condeming Christians that support passage of those laws.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said "You really need to read at least the words of Christ to see what he says as all your answers are right there."
      Been there, done that, found it severely lacking. If you take the good and leave out all the bad, I have no issue with the alleged words of Jesus. But because of the bad, he lacks authority on the good. You can do good without religion or the words of your Christ. Most atheists do.

      You said "As to why Christians are picking on gays is not a correct statement. There are misguided Christians as well as terrorist Muslims etc. You appear sensitive to "gay" more than other responses from Christians. If I got on this web site and said dont murder, steal, covet, lust over a coworker on the job, lie to your bestfriend etc etc you would shrug it off. When laws were passed to stop bosses from groaping their employees I don't recall activist groups coming out condeming Christians that support passage of those laws."
      Sensible laws that aim to stop behavior that has real victims are merely common sense. Murder, theft, perjury and sexual assault cause real harm and have real victims. That makes laws against them sensible and reasonable.

      Laws against same sex marriage discriminate, and with that create real victims, without preventing any harm. These laws are not reasonable. Any perceived harm can be remedied by simply not entering into a same seanyx marriage.

      I may appear "sensitive" to this issue because it is current and it is harming people I care about. But I am equally against restrictions on science or promotion of national days of prayer, etc.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Know What

      @fred:

      David Silverman is president of The American Atheists - an atheist 'society'... or 'club'... or 'group'. He is no more the 'president' of American atheists than Bryant Wright (president Southern Baptist Convention) is the president of American Christians.

      August 8, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • fred

      Know What
      Thanks, the news made it sound as if all athiests in America follow his lead. The majority of Christians in the U.S. do not follow the Bible either. Jesus said the gate is narrow and few will find it. Looks like He continues to be right in all that he said.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA
      You say:Morals from the bible: – R ape is OK – Murder is OK – Genocide is OK – Slavery is OK – Hate is OK – Human sacrifice is OK.
      It is amazing how two people can read the Bible, one sees love and God reaching out to His loved ones and the other sees lies.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:26 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said "It is amazing how two people can read the Bible, one sees love and God reaching out to His loved ones and the other sees lies."
      See: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/21/my-take-bible-condemns-a-lot-so-why-focus-on-homosexuality/comment-page-64/#comment-616067

      August 8, 2011 at 8:10 pm |
    • Civiloutside

      Fred – refusing to address a point is not the same as clearing it up.

      I see that you're missing my point. It was not that I believe god exists (or some supernatural being possessinbthe atteibutes I described) and that he orders people to commit atrocities. My point is that he doesn't exist, but the "theological history" contained in the Bible gives people who believe it license to do whatever it is that they want, and strips other believers of valid criticism of those actions.

      You say it's amazing how some people read the Bible and see only lies. I say everyone who reads it sees lies, but some of us choose not to believe them.

      August 8, 2011 at 9:35 pm |
    • fred

      Civiloutside,
      You cannot say God does not exist then use Gods words from the Bible against Him.
      As to your argument that people do bad things because of lies and misunderstandings ......so what that is what people do and it has nothing to do with the Bible. Stop useing the terrible things man does to give God a black eye for not creating a bunch of robots that only sing beautiful songs 24/7.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:26 am |
    • Civiloutside

      In the strictest sense, I'm not using god's words from the Bible against him. I am using the words attributed to him in the Bible against the idea of him. It's entirely valid to reference the being constructed in those pages, because people believe in him, believe he exists as described in that text, and their behavior in the real world is influenced by that belief. One of the arguments advanced in favor of the existence of god is that strict adherence to his commands guarantees good behavior. Aside from the fact that this argument isn't logical (the desire for a guarantee doesn't imply the guarantee exists), it is also *not true.*

      Maybe I can get across the idea I'm trying to convey with a thought experiment. Say a man walks into a daycare center with an AK-47 and kills everyone inside, right down to the infants. When questioned afterwards, he claims that god appeared to him in a vision and commanded him to do it. Most of us would probably conclude that he's either lying or hallucinating. But if you truly believe in the god of the Bible, don't you also have to consider it possible that he's telling the absolute truth? And if he is, doesn't that make him a good Christian, and his slaughter a praiseworthy act? Given that the Bible describes a god character that does, in fact, order the murder of children, on what basis could you possibly determine whether this man is a good and genuine servant of that god, or just a murderer? For that matter, if he actually experienced that vision, on what basis does *he* decide whether it was a hallucination or a genuine command from god?

      If you don't believe, the man is either sick or a murderer, and either way needs to be removed from society for everyone's safety. If you do believe, then you must consider the possibility that he's a hero who should be upheld for his devotion, and you have no theological basis on which to decide.

      August 9, 2011 at 8:02 am |
    • fred

      Civiloutside,
      I see your point but, the Bible is a progression of God revealing himself to His chosen people. God works through generations and a building process that grows in knowledge and revelation about God. Just as an artist adds strokes where once only see a nose and now ears then soon a full characterization. With the Bible you cant just the part of the nose and that is who God is as you must look at the entire picture to get the mood etc. So in your example since you refer to God,Christians and the Bible we need to look at that picture as a whole. Note Jesus (God) said do not attempt to separate the weeds from the wheat (bad kids and good kids in the room with ak 47 guy) but, let both grow up together (as you and I are allowed to grow to maturity). So this makes it clear that in todays envronment God would never ok the AK47 guy and thus it is not possible he heard from God.

      August 9, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
  9. martinipaul

    Atheists. God bless them. So angry and so little to be angry about. It is good that they have a safe place to vent and perhaps finally finding a few friends.

    August 7, 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    • Amistavia

      Bet you miss the day when you could burn us at the stake.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:12 pm |
    • martinipaul

      That's just it. Nobody is going to burn you at the stake. Nobody is going to deny your right to free speech. In fact, nobody is going to do anything to you at all. Why so angry. Atheistism has never had it so good.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:25 pm |
    • Amistavia

      The future will be even better. We probably won't burn your kind at the stake, but we might lock you up.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:29 pm |
    • Colin

      Martinipaul – The reason I actively oppose Christians is that you want to base 21st Century social policy on a collection of Bronze Age myths from the Middle East. This would be harmless foolery if it didn't impact the rest of us, but it does – hence we oppose it.

      A few quick examples include – (i) a woman's right to choose; (ii) use of condoms and other contraceptives; (iii) basic $ex education for teens; (iv) teaching evolution in school; (v) assisted suicide; (vi) gay marriage; (vii) treating drug abuse as principally a medical issue; (viii) population control; (ix) buying alcohol on a Sunday; and (x) stem cell research.

      In each of the above ten issues, Christians want to tell non-Christians what we must do based on the supposed wishes of their Bronze Age sky-god. Not coincidentally, on every such issue, they are wrong. Not just a little wrong, but spectacularly and stupidly wrong.

      I am sorry, but I will oppose them at every level. To me, the most important way of doing so is pointing out the sheer absurdity of their beliefs in public forums such as this, so as to inform those who have an open mind.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:31 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Are you mad at God, religion, or are you just angry at the world? The usual atheist anger is so bitter that it has to be personal. What did Christ ever do to you that you should be so upset? Hey, live and let live. What's so bad about that?

      August 7, 2011 at 8:35 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I am not angry. I am concerned. Religious people are very invasive in this culture, and sometimes people feel the need to speak out against that invasion, before the religious people start to think everyone agrees with them.

      You, however, are smug, a foolish position to take, considering there is not one shred of proof that any god, ever, has existed. Perhaps you should exercise humility, until such time as you can prove that your religion is the real one out of the thousands that mankind has invented since the beginning of humanity.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:37 pm |
    • Amistavia

      God didn't do anything to us, because he doesn't exist. It's the a hole faith-heads like you who need and will receive a day of reckoning- in this life, not the imaginary next.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:37 pm |
    • Colin

      MartiniPaul – as an atheist, it is impossible to be "mad at god". We don't believe in god. Accusing us of being mad at god because we oppose religion is like accusing us of being "mad" at Tinkerbell because we don't like the Disney Company.

      Once again, it would be a harmless waste of your own time if you stuck to yourselves, but you don't, as my 10 examples show.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:39 pm |
    • frank

      I'm not angry, I just want all believers to die. For the good of the planet. My desire for their death comes from love.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:45 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Hey, guys, I'm not responsible for religion in politics and government. I can't help it if Pelosi is catholic, or Obame is christian. We live in a democracy. Run atheist candidates. Vote for them. I can't help it if the majority of voters are religious. Surely, you would not impose an atheistic dictatorship. I'm not trying to do anything to you. Believe what you want to believe, I don't care. I am not denying your right to your beliefs, why deny me the same right?

      August 7, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
    • martinipaul

      As for the existence of God, no, I can not prove that God exists, but you can not prove that He doesn't. You condemn me for acting without proof. Why should I not condemn you for doing the same thing?

      August 7, 2011 at 8:53 pm |
    • LinCA

      @martinipaul

      You said "As for the existence of God, no, I can not prove that God exists, but you can not prove that He doesn't. You condemn me for acting without proof. Why should I not condemn you for doing the same thing?"

      The absence of evidence for either position doesn't mean that they have equal merit. Without scientific evidence, the position that there is no god is the default one. For the other position to have non-zero merit, evidence is required. Without verifiable evidence, it is no more rational or reasonable to assume there are any gods as it is to assume there are Pink Unicorns.

      While we can't know with 100% certainty that there are no gods, we can establish without a shadow of a doubt that the christian god can't exist as he has mutually exclusive traits. Being both omnipotent and omniscient is impossible, ergo, as described, the christian god can't exist. Ergo, christians are most certainly incorrect.

      That does leave the possibility that some god exists, and with that two possible positions (other than the agnostic one). Position one: "There are no gods", and position two: "There is at least one god".

      To be able to test for the existence of any god or Pink Unicorns, you would first have to establish what measurable attributes these creatures have. You can then devise a test to measure these attributes.

      Without any recorded phenomena that could be attributed to these creatures, it is reasonable to form a theory about them. Assign attributes based on this theory. Design and run your test(s). Your theory will have to show that these attributes can only belong to the creature of interest.

      One attribute most commonly assigned to gods is their ability and willingness to grant wishes. These wishes are typically sent in the form of prayer. If prayers can be shown to more often result in the desired change than can be expected from random chance, you will have found evidence for a force that you then can call god (or Pink Unicorn).

      August 7, 2011 at 9:06 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I am not commenting on your belief; only on your smugness about it. You are making the claim of a supernatural being; the onus is on you to provide proof. This has been explained many times on these boards, however you either choose to ignore it or you lack the comprehension of simple logic. If I was to claim that there was an invisible pink unicorn deciding the outcome of the Super Bowl every year, I would hope you would consider me insane, because I can provide no proof of such an enti-ty. You are making a similar claim. You have the same proof. Do you wish me to think you insane?

      However, there is no proof - there has never been any proof - of any god, therefore, after a few millennia, don't you think it's practical to decide that maybe your god isn't real?

      Also, I noticed that you only mentioned the religions of the politicians who aren't going about spouting evangelical rhetoric. Are you too cowardly to talk about those who do, like Michelle Bachmann and Rick Perry? These are the ones who concern most normal people, who only want a functioning government that represents all Americans, not just the christian ones.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:09 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Let's see. I declare that one of the attributes of any god is the ability to inspire groundless faith. For proof of that faith I offer the thusands, upon thousands who have willing died to prove that faith. By the way, I used to be an existentialist atheist - in other words - I set the rules, jack, not you or anybody else. lol!

      August 7, 2011 at 9:38 pm |
    • LinCA

      @martinipaul

      You said "Let's see. I declare that one of the attributes of any god is the ability to inspire groundless faith. For proof of that faith I offer the thusands, upon thousands who have willing died to prove that faith."

      Your god therefor only exists in the minds of believers. What else is new?

      But let's see, "groundless faith" and "have willing died". Some might call that a mental illness.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:57 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So the Pharaohs must have been living gods, because thousands of people over thousands of years died for them. And Allah must be real, because why else would all those suicide bombers be willing to blow themselves up. Heck, even David Koresh and Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite must have been somewhat divine, considering all the people who died because they believed.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:01 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Others might call it proof of God. Others may call it entertainment. Yet others might call it art. Don't care what you call it.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:01 pm |
    • LinCA

      @martinipaul

      You said "Others might call it proof of God."
      It's quite obvious that most believers call it proof of their god. It's all they have, as there isn't a shred of real evidence of any god.

      You said "Others may call it entertainment."
      It sure is, sometimes.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:09 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Yes. But, you will note that I did not use the big, big G. I did not use the word 'divine'. Men have always wanted to take
      God's place. Men indeed want to worship themselves and do. Being a good existentialist, however, I claim my right for proof of God's non-existence. I place the burden of proof on you atheists. Put up or shut up!

      August 7, 2011 at 10:21 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I'm sorry Paul. I made the mistake of assuming you were rational. I do know many christians who are. I guess you aren't one of them.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:23 pm |
    • LinCA

      @martinipaul

      You said "Yes. But, you will note that I did not use the big, big G. I did not use the word 'divine'."
      Noted. But it is also noted that you are inconsistent. You said "Men have always wanted to take God's place. Men indeed want to worship themselves and do." (emphasis mine)

      You said "Being a good existentialist, however, I claim my right for proof of God's non-existence. I place the burden of proof on you atheists. Put up or shut up!"
      Since you're the one making the silly claims, the burden of proof is really on you. If you can't provide evidence of your god, how about you provide some evidence of the non-existence of Pink Unicorns, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Tooth Fairy, or Bob the Magical Blue Sock?

      Pick any of them. As soon as you can prove they don't exist, you'll have your evidence your god doesn't either.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:36 pm |
    • Stevie7

      " I place the burden of proof on you atheists. Put up or shut up!"

      Place it where ever you like – doesn't really mean a thing. People have been willing to die because they had groundless belief that god was going to whisk them away on a comet. Willingness to die = proof of nothing.

      Re: proof – you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      August 9, 2011 at 8:11 am |
  10. David Johnson

    From the Article:

    "We’ve been telling our stories since we could carve on cave walls, and probably longer. Stories are the roadmaps of our lives, and we're hard-wired for telling them."

    Yep, that's the way we got brer rabbit and Yahweh and the demigod Jesus and the whole New and Old Testaments.

    People sitting around the campfire, telling stories. Each getting a little better every time it is told.

    Cheers!

    August 7, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
  11. Jake the Cake

    "I have no idea why I was even given a job"
    It couldn't have been the MA from Yale, it must have been a miracle from Yahweh!

    August 7, 2011 at 6:55 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      If you've been to Yale, then it is definitely a miracle of YHWH you got a yob!

      August 7, 2011 at 7:02 pm |
    • frank

      Yale does not exist.

      August 7, 2011 at 7:07 pm |
  12. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    Sorry to all Posters for my post being a multiplication factor! So Soooorrreeeeee I am!

    August 7, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
  13. RightTurnClyde

    I think we have the strongest faith when we come to it by way of a personal reckoning with an unsurp.a.s.s.a.b.le event (war, addiction, reversals, losses, accidents). When we are young an invulnerable we believe we are gods and do not need any other. Where ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise.

    August 7, 2011 at 6:12 pm |
    • Stevie7

      So ... faith is something one turns to when faced with adversity? Sounds like a coping mechanism to me.

      August 9, 2011 at 8:18 am |
  14. frank

    Next week on CNN Belief Blogs:
    "How Storytelling Got My Ass Kicked and Brutally Executed"
    by Jesus

    August 7, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
  15. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    All Religion Is Evil wrote on August 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm, “Grinnan is correct in saying that we are hard-wired to be storytellers. It's one of our basic traits that dovetailed synergistically with being social, inquisitive, mostly rational, tool-using, aquisitional, territorial, and promiscuous, and allowed us to be highly successful as a species, We are also inherently receptive audiences for storytelling because that's the method by which knowlege gets passed to other members of the group. Unfortunately, storytelling has a downside – false stories can be transmitted in the same way that accurate information can. Some false stories persist and grow to the point they inspire all manner of destructive irrationality, as we can easily see in our human-dense world today“

    Grinnan Never said or I didn't read that we are “hard-wired to be storytellers“. “He”, Grinnan, does however admit that storytelling was and is and will forever be an “Act of Wanton Attrition”, whereupon otherly people are aghast and/or horrified to tell their stories of Truth-be-Told Autobiographies and Short-Stories. Those who feel a compulsion to relate, in Word and/or spoken stories of their lived’ relativities do so to hope some Truth can be related in others’ sympathic conceptualisms upon those who Seek Worded Understandings. We all are in need of Life's Consistencies Of Reverberations!

    August 7, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
  16. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    All Religion Is Evil wrote on August 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm, “Grinnan is correct in saying that we are hard-wired to be storytellers. It's one of our basic traits that dovetailed synergistically with being social, inquisitive, mostly rational, tool-using, aquisitional, territorial, and promiscuous, and allowed us to be highly successful as a species, We are also inherently receptive audiences for storytelling because that's the method by which knowlege gets passed to other members of the group. Unfortunately, storytelling has a downside – false stories can be transmitted in the same way that accurate information can. Some false stories persist and grow to the point they inspire all manner of destructive irrationality, as we can easily see in our human-dense world today“

    Grinnan Never said or I didn't read that we are “hard-wired to be storytellers“. “He”, Grinnan, does however admit that storytelling was and is and will forever be an “Act of Wanton Attrition”, whereupon otherly people are aghast and/or horrified to tell their stories of Truth-be-Told Autobiographies and Short-Stories. Those who feel a compulsion to relate, in Word and/or spoken stories of their lived’ relativities do so to hope some Truth can be related in others’ sympathic conceptualisms upon those who Seek Worded Understandings. We all are in need of Life's Reverberations!

    August 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm |
  17. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    All Religion Is Evil wrote on August 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm, “Grinnan is correct in saying that we are hard-wired to be storytellers. It's one of our basic traits that dovetailed synergistically with being social, inquisitive, mostly rational, tool-using, aquisitional, territorial, and promiscuous, and allowed us to be highly successful as a species, We are also inherently receptive audiences for storytelling because that's the method by which knowlege gets passed to other members of the group. Unfortunately, storytelling has a downside – false stories can be transmitted in the same way that accurate information can. Some false stories persist and grow to the point they inspire all manner of destructive irrationality, as we can easily see in our human-dense world today“

    Grinnan Never said or I didn't read that we are “hard-wired to be storytellers“. “He”, Grinnan, does however admit that storytelling was and is and will forever be an “Act of Wanton Attrition”, whereupon otherly people are aghast and/or horrified to tell their stories of Truth-be-Told Autobiographies and Short-Stories. Those who feel a compulsion to relate, in Word and/or spoken stories of their lived’ relativities do so to hope some Truth can be related in others’ sympathic conceptualisms upon those who Seek Worded Understandings. We all are in need of reverberations!

    August 7, 2011 at 5:57 pm |
  18. The Lionly Lamb of The Gods Does Roar

    All Religion Is Evil wrote on August 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm, “Grinnan is correct in saying that we are hard-wired to be storytellers. It's one of our basic traits that dovetailed synergistically with being social, inquisitive, mostly rational, tool-using, aquisitional, territorial, and promiscuous, and allowed us to be highly successful as a species, We are also inherently receptive audiences for storytelling because that's the method by which knowlege gets passed to other members of the group. Unfortunately, storytelling has a downside – false stories can be transmitted in the same way that accurate information can. Some false stories persist and grow to the point they inspire all manner of destructive irrationality, as we can easily see in our human-dense world today“

    Grinnan Never said we are “hard-wired to be storytellers“. “He”, Grinnan, does however admit that storytelling was and is and will forever be an “Act of Wanton Attrition”, whereupon many people are aghast and/or horrified to tell their stories of Truth-be-Told Autobiographies and Short-Stories. Those who feel a compulsion to relate, in Word, their lived’ relativities do so to hope some Truth can be related in others’ sympathic conceptualisms upon those who Seek Worded Understandings.

    My Life experiences are not unlike many folks who live today, one day at a Time. To put Word to my Past Acts and Trials and Tribulations seems to be where Life has been dragging me to do. My penmanship/writing abilities seem to be getting better as I do type them out here at Belief Blog. Sure, sometimes my posts are idiotic at times and then there are those posts that I feel I have given some readers a Hope or even something they can relate to and find solace in. “I am now writing a few verses a day for an Autobiography to be given to my brother’s grownup children, one is married and the other is in the Navy. One boy and one girl, MY Lovely Niece and Nephew! I have 2 Grand-Nieces in my and my brother’s Life and they are the “apples” in our eyes, my brother and I! May the King of All the Gods and Goddesses, Christ Jesus grant me the wisdom to write with clear unde4rstanding and a righteous vision to emulate my Word into a Truthful Testimony of My Life Encounters and how I see my family members in Light of Understanding.

    August 7, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      fact: the Dead Sea Scrolls , found in Qumran ,Israel dated 2nd to1st century BCE,were found to contain all the texts of the Old Testament except one .these texts are amazingly accurate to the texts we have today.Where are the changes you speak of?The Jewish scribes of ancient Israel were under very strict rules and guidelines regarding accurate transcription of the Holy Scriptures, do you suggest incompetence in their employment, if so where can it be shown?

      August 7, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @tallulah13
      The Greek gods were made in the image of men by men,some, Hercules for example was a man.The living God made man in His image.You choose, but if you continue to avoid honest debate I'll quit replying to you.There are many examples of proven Bible truths, the Greek b.s you brought up just confuses the real issue and adds nothing to the conversation.You know it ,I know it, so does any thinking person.Focus on the topic at hand or go elsewhere.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So the people of ancient times who wrote the bible knew about their geography and their leaders. Amazing. They probably were familiar with the wars as well, and what kind of foods they ate.

      There is not one shred of proof for any of the supernatural aspects of the bible. Not one. Also, who cares if Hercules was based on a real person (I have never seen proof of this. I would love to see the basis of your claim.). He has as much evidence of divinity as Christ does. You say man was created in gods image, but you have no proof. I can claim that Prometheus created man from clay and Athena breathed life into them. I have just as much proof of this as you do.

      This is the problem. You make a lot of claims but won't back them up with real evidence. As I showed with the Illiad, ancients texts were filled with ancient geographical references and real people. This is not proof of anything but the fact that ancient people told stories about the events and places of their lives and eventually, someone wrote them down.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:19 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @tallulah13
      Hecules was referenced in the same Illiad you keep bringing up,but i doubt you've actually read it ,i notice you are parroting another post as well, bottom line you are not really thinking for yourself ,just copying others .hope it strokes your ego and makes you feel good in your peer group. I don't wish to communicate with you further,nothing personal , .adios

      August 8, 2011 at 6:23 am |
    • tallulah13

      So since you can't provide any proof of your claims, you resort to personal attacks, then take your ball and go home. You are yet another person who makes extraordinary claims but can't produce proof when asked. If you just say,' I believe that the bible is true', instead of claiming that it is inerrant fact, you would probably find fewer arguments.

      I do no seek peer approval, nor am I 'stroking my ego'. I simply seek the truth. If someone can provide actual proof of god (any god) that stands up to scrutiny, I would become, if not a worshiper, at least a believer.

      August 8, 2011 at 11:16 am |
    • herbert juarez

      two instances of truth were offered, you are simply not worth talking to.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Herb, you have no proof of the supernatural. You only have instances of correct names and places within the bible, something that can be found in other examples of ancient literature. So why don't you call me a few more names and insult me some more? It will make you feel morally superior.

      August 8, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
  19. TheyNotHim

    "We’ve been telling our stories since we could carve on cave walls, and probably longer."

    Wait, I thought your book says that the planet is only 6000 years old? Make up your mind please. Is it a book of fiction, or the word of god? Can't really have it both ways people...

    August 7, 2011 at 5:17 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      In answer tothey not him.There is no place in the book ,the Bible, that says the planet is only 6000 years old, it is the word of God, just because the Bible has been misinterpreted by men and women over the years does not make it (the Bible) a work of fiction.The Bible has been proven to be more accurate and unchanged than any other text of antiquity.Case in point Kedorlaomer.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • Amistavia

      Yes Herbert, a book that can be interpreted so many different ways can pretty much provide justification for any atrocity.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @amistavia
      what is your opinion on Kedorlaomer?The actual illustration given.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • JF

      "The Bible has been proven to be more accurate and unchanged than any other text of antiquity."

      Holy cow where did you pull that one out of? I think I know, but there maybe kids reading. There are more versions of the New Testament than there are words in the New Testament. There probably isn't a single text from antiquity that hasn't been changed more times than the Bible. Jeez.

      August 7, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      for some reason,cnn is posting my replies somewhere other than where they were directed.
      Fact:The Dead Sea Scrolls fond at Qumran Israel and dated between the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE. are known to contain all the Old Testament writings except one book.The writings found at Qumran are amazingly accurate to the Old Testament we have today.Where are the changes you speak of?The scribes of ancient Israel were under strict rules and supervision in the completion of their tasks;are you suggesting incompetence in their duty?If so please show it.

      August 7, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Hey herb, could you please clarify this Kedorlaomer thing? I googled it, but all I got was a bunch of bible verses and some guy named Allen Kedorlaomer on facebook. Unless you think that the guy in the bible and the guy on facebook are the same person, the name doesn't provide proof of anything.

      August 7, 2011 at 8:42 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @tallulah13
      apparently google is not the most defining answer to scholarly study, He ,Kedorlaomer, was a person of antiquity mentioned in the Bible,that was already a given.He was a king 4000 years ago and his treasures were discovered by archaeologists not that long ago.Up to the discoveries Kedorlaomer was an obscure reference in the "Bible"and there had been doubt as to whether he existed or not.
      another Bible reference Machpelah

      August 7, 2011 at 9:02 pm |
    • frank

      Interesting how every single thing in the Bible that's been verified by archaeological evidence just coincidentally happens to have ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING supernatural about it whatsoever...

      August 7, 2011 at 9:07 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Wow! I guess this means that since the city of Troy was discovered using clues from the Illiad, Zeus and the entire Greek pantheon must exist! Gosh, which should I worship....

      August 7, 2011 at 9:13 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @frank
      Faith is not something you can hold in your hand,faith is being sure of what we hope for,and certain of what we do not see. There are many testimonies of mans encounters with the living God, the places they met God remain,their testimony is refuted by ,well you. in spite of their testimony or maybe because of their testimony you choose to call them all liars.All that is being said is that there is evidence for the truth of the Bible in archaeology with amazing accuracy.
      This seems to trouble you to the point of profanity.Pity
      i do not like assassins or persons of low character

      August 7, 2011 at 9:29 pm |
    • frank

      Fuck off, troll.

      August 7, 2011 at 9:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Hey herb, thousands of people claim they were abducted by aliens. Some people claim to have seen bigfoot. Personal anecdotes don't prove a thing without evidence to back them up.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:04 pm |
    • JF

      Herbert,

      I wasn't referring to the Torah or the OT which by the way happens to be the part where God is at his worst. Read Job. The Devil practically comes out looking like the good guy in that one. I'm referring to the NT which is the heart of Christianity. The NT wasn't written in Hebrew it was written in Greek which makes total sense considering Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. It was written long after Jesus was dead and has been changed a gazillion times and can't be used as a historical reference to anything. Any of the prophecies written in the OT were written after the fact. It's easy to write a book that has predicted the future when it's written after the events have already taken place.

      August 8, 2011 at 3:40 am |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      well your information about the New Testament is about as accurate as your Old Testament knowledge,The prophecies of the Old testament concerning Christ could not have been written after the fact because we now have the Dead Sea Scrolls,with an almost complete Old Testament dated 100-200 years before the birth of Christ,Your interpretation of God at His worst shows a complete lack of understanding as to what was being communicated.We don't know what the original texts of the New Testament were written in as to date there are no original copies available.Greek was the common language of the day.Most of the gospels were reported written somewhere in the 30 year after Christs resurrection time frame,not the unspecified"long after"you reference and three of the authors knew Jesus personally in His earthly ministry,the other Knew Jesus as his savior and was in the company of many who also knew Jesus.You keep referencing changes, "gazillion"was the word used but you never referenced one change,so it is assumed we are to take your word for it.What may we ask are your credentials?Try reading Job your own self, particularly the section were Job says "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes"

      August 8, 2011 at 6:15 am |
    • JF

      @Herbert

      Ahhh! I hate it when this site finds one word it doesn't like. It might have been adult.er.er (reference from John 8) who knows. Well I don't feel like writing this all out again. Here's the short version.

      That adult.er.er parable was added by scribes around the 11th century. So yes scribes did make changes. Maybe the scribe ran into one of Jesus' long lost relatives from Joseph's side of the family? Maybe an angel told him to throw that story in?

      You said three authors of the NT knew Jesus. Name one. Ghost Jesus or zombie Jesus don't count.

      30 years is a loooong time considering nothing about Jesus was written down during his time. Stories change drastically when told verbally even over a short period of time.

      Let me see...God allows Job's family to be destroyed in order to win a $1 bet with the devil. Great inspirational story. Sign me up.

      August 8, 2011 at 8:22 am |
    • JF

      The reference is John 8, not John smiley face with sunglasses. Not sure what happened there.

      August 8, 2011 at 8:25 am |
    • Civiloutside

      Herbert – the argument is that the OT prophecies aren't prophecies at all. Those that are fulfilled within the OT itself are recorded nowhere else and were all written well after the events they describe (e.g. Isaiah supposedly prophesied the Jewish captivity in and release from Babylon around 705 BC, the captivity and release took place from 605-535 BC, and the oldest known record of the prophecy was written ~250 BC, about 285 years *after* the "prophesied" events). The NT was written specifically for the purpose of showing that Jesus fulfilled a bunch of other prophecies, though there's not much evidence that some of those "prophesied" events took place at all. Maybe the reason it took 30 or more years to wrote down the story is because it took that long to figure out how to tweak the story to make it look like it fulfilled prophesies it really hadn't. And though the dates I've seen have ranged more like 50-100 years after Jesus' death, even if we grant only 30 years... Well, try thinking about any conversation you had or event you witnessed 30 years ago, however important or profound that event was in your life. Heck, try an event from last year. Can you recall it with word-for-word accuracy?

      August 8, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • herbert juarez

      @civil
      when i am in conversation with someone on these blogs you guys swarm like locusts ,it is not possible to give individual attention to you all sorry.read what herbie has already posted to others for your response ,will probably address your bs somewhere if it hasn't already been explained.

      August 8, 2011 at 5:15 pm |
    • InOtherWords

      herbert juarez is opting out because they don't have the answers.

      August 8, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @lots of answers ,not a lot of worthy recipients
      the answers are already posted take the time to read them before you comment again,"in other words"

      August 8, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      this is my third attempt to reply to you, i'll try to respond to each section individually.
      There are no original copies of the gospel of John,I am not even sure what the earliest copies are dated, it is noted in my Bible that there are copies that do not have this passage.That in itself neither proves nor disproves anything, unless you have personal knowledge of the11th century "scribe"you spoke of.
      ps i think the scribes were those who copied the Old Testament .A.D.(in the year of our Lord) 1100 with New testament writings I think you will find Monks doing the work.

      August 8, 2011 at 5:56 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      I'll go you two better and name all three authors of the gospels that ministered with Jesus for three years more or less
      they were Matthew , Mark and John
      beyond them if you want to include the entire New Testament i would include James ,Jude and Peter
      beyond that All the authors in the New Testament knew Jesus.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:05 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @jf
      the 30 year reference was answered and cnn put it on it's own thread on page 5.it is there, probably with every atheist in the world firing rocks at it as i'm writing you the explanation.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
  20. lazy Daisy

    Atheists-

    Thanks much for your faithful following of the belief blog.

    tq for your powerful support and following.

    daisy prays that one day you will turn to God in faith....

    August 7, 2011 at 5:13 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Hey, it's your time. Waste it as you see fit.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:17 pm |
    • Amistavia

      I wouldn't expect a faith-head to do anything more productive than that.

      August 7, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • sun

      @amistav

      atheists have been blessed by your gibberish which they find intellectually stimulating! may u never lose ur sense of gibberishness.

      August 7, 2011 at 7:00 pm |
    • Free

      daisy
      "daisy prays that one day you will turn to God in faith...."
      In that spirit then can we also hope that one day you will see reason?

      August 7, 2011 at 11:20 pm |
    • Daisy

      @free

      yes, Daisy saw reasoning behind praying that is why she prays and she continues to pray!

      August 8, 2011 at 2:31 pm |
    • Sue

      Daisy, give an example of what prayer has done for you.

      August 8, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • Daisy

      Sue

      Daisy prayed for a friend who was struggling with their faith and her prayer was answered!

      August 8, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Perhaps Daisy should pray for the ability no not refer to herself in the third person.

      August 8, 2011 at 11:25 pm |
    • J.W

      Why shouldnt Daisy speak of herself in the third person. Two of the greatest people ever (The Rock and Bob Dole) did it all the time.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:13 am |
    • tallulah13

      Hmmm. Perhaps Daisy actually IS The Rock!

      August 9, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • J.W

      Hmm I dunno the Rock doesnt seem that spiritual to me. If he was though he would make a good preacher. He is very charismatic.

      August 9, 2011 at 11:20 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.