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August 23rd, 2011
06:04 PM ET
Washington National Cathedral sustains 'significant damage' in earthquakeBy Dan Gilgoff and Larry Lazo Washington (CNN) - Washington’s National Cathedral sustained "significant damage" during Tuesday’s 5.8-magnitude earthquake, the church said Wednesday, and will remain closed at least through Saturday, when it had planned to host a dedication event for the capital’s new Martin Luther King Jr. memorial. Three of the four corner spires on the church’s dramatic central tower lost their ornate capstones, or finials, during the quake, and there are cracks in some of the church’s flying buttresses. Called the "Gloria in Excelsis,” the cathedral’s central tower is the highest point in the nation’s capital, rising to a greater height than even the Washington Monument. The cracks in the flying buttresses are around the apse, the area around the altar, though the buttresses supporting the central tower appear to be sound, the church said in a statement. Though the dedication ceremony for the Martin Luther King Jr. memorial has been moved to a Roman Catholic church in Washington, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, National Cathedral officials said they hoped to host services Sunday. The Rev. Samuel Lloyd, dean of the cathedral, said that there are no indications that the building has sustained serious structural damage but that structural engineers wanted more time to assess the building. “For safety’s sake, we want to be as careful as we can,” he said Wednesday, explaining the decision to keep the church closed. “The good news is that this was not devastating,” he said. “It was quite serious, and there are some very important things we’re going to have to deal with, but it could have been much worse.” Lloyd says he’s confident that the cathedral will go forward with three days of events around the 10th anniversary of the September 11 attacks. "By that point, we will have had the time we need fully to assess what's going on,” he said. “All plans are full steam ahead." Stonemasons and structural engineers are continuing to assess damage to the cathedral. “We’ve been crawling all over the building since yesterday afternoon, and it just strikes me the amount of work that’s ahead of us,” the church’s mason foreman, Joe Alonso, said Wednesday. “Again, this is all handmade, this is a handmade building, and I just look at all of these little individual sculptures and works of art.” “They’re delicate, but they’re still quite large,” he said. “When you look at those pinnacles up close, just knowing what goes into cutting and carving and laying these stones, we’ve got our work cut out for us. But we’re going to do it right.” No major injuries or extensive damage were reported, but the quake prompted evacuations of numerous office buildings – including the U.S. Capitol – and affected operations at a nuclear power plant in Virginia. An Episcopal church, Washington National Cathedral considers itself a “spiritual home for the nation.” It is the traditional site for official presidential inauguration services and has hosted funeral and memorial services for 10 U.S. presidents. According to its website, the cathedral was the longest-running project in the history of Washington. Construction began in 1907 and wasn’t completed until 1990. “The earthquake which struck the East Coast today is a reminder of the continuing evolution of this planet, this fragile Earth, our island home,” said the Episcopal Church’s head, the Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori. “It is also a reminder of how interconnected we are,” she said in a statement. “The quake damaged Washington National Cathedral and reminded many Episcopalians of the quakes that struck the Christchurch Cathedral in New Zealand during the last year.”
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Forget the quake or whether god is too fat to live in a given structure. Did anyone forget that our National Debt and our International reputation is damaged? Let's get a prayer circle going to address this ASAP!
Our reputation is damaged? No, I just checked the Foreign Affairs website. We are still known as war-mongers.
And blasphemers and perverts.
@ Laughing
Very little do you understand that there isn't a building big enough for God to dwell in. The only temple that God will dwell in is in our body, heart, spirit, and soul. Therefore, every church building you see doesn't mean God Spirit dwells in unless His people, which makes up a temple, resides in that church. For where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, the captives are set free.
Read the bible and learn for a change, atheists!!!
Liar.
LOL,
Prove me wrong, Dave. He loves you more than what you can know or understand.
You want to play?
Ok, well first off, I think you're in the miniority when you say that god doesn't dwell in any of his places of worship because they're too small. Stupid comment all around.
Secondly, I think you're referring to my previous post about how damaging the cathedral was a wake-up call for America. My point is, if god wanted to send a wake-up call, he would've toppled the washingon monumnet, white house, ect... NOT a place where his most faithful would be.
Dude, you are WAY out of your element, having read the bible, a couple of times I might add, I can assure you that I know probably about as much about your religion as you do and quite a bit more about the many religions out there apart from christianity.
'He loves you more than what you can know or understand.'
unless you die not believing in him and then he will show his love by frying you forever as punishment for some reason.
ah i can feel the love, cant you feel the love?
well maybe my prayers will be answered and the aftershocks will be strong enough to bring it down to the ground.....
@ Laughing
How funny to see atheists come on any religous articles claiming they know more about God than we, who knows God. Again, you need to do research about what I am saying and learn the bible, start with the Book of John, because starting with Genius will only bring you confusing when you don't have understanding, which the O.T. is strong spiritual food for the grown spiritual Christians. I know my word and know what saith the Lord, you don't.
Again, there is no building big enough for God to dwell in.
Cedar Rapids – So you are saying, you rather take the risk of seeing yourself burn in hell? That's will cost you your soul, so when that happens, don't blame Jesus Christ, He already made a way of escape of eternal hell, you atheists are just angry and are so rebellion.
But hey, that's your choice, not mine, or God's.
@ Gort01- Understand this, my friend, God DOES NOT answer to a sinner's prayer, so keep praying, because it will be in vain. Even though I am not a Catholic and do not following their teachings, I will never pray such an evil prayer as you. May God have mercy on your soul.
The Bible is just a lot of made up stuff.
Anybody with a working brain will realize he's just reading ancient mythology when he encounters frequent passages like this:
"Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs."
@ Laughing – Anyone can know about religion. I, myself, denounce it to it's fullest as God does as well. Anyway, my question is, do you know about having a spiritual connection (relationship) with God, bet I know about it more than you do.
@ Asklepios417 – What evidence do you have to prove that the Bible is just a mythe? Bring your evidence. The Bible was not written to make belief or for unbelievers. It is, in fact, pearls not being thrown to the swines who refuse to believe and accept the very pearls that God has for His people.
Prove to me with evidence that there is no God and that Jesus Christ never existed. As for me, I will tell you this, God and His super natural can not be tested under the micro-scope, neither can they be observed by the spiritual blind eye who is walking in darkness, 24/7.
' you atheists are just angry and are so rebellion.'
atheists are angry? we arent the ones threatening to burn people forever because of a bruised ego.
"Cedar Rapids – So you are saying, you rather take the risk of seeing yourself burn in hell?"
You're taking that same risk by not submitting to Islam, should that prove to be the true religion.
Something you won't know until it's too late.
@ Cedar Rapids – Who is threatening you or any other unbeliever? I don't have a hell or a heaven to place you in. If God has brought warning about our destruction because we are being too rebelious, why not hearken to his calling? Why turn the free gift of salvation down?
Warning comes before destruction, this is not threat.
@HelsGod
Awwww champ, it's adorable that you can spout some nonesense and call yourself learned. First of all, you claim to "know god" how so? Did he speak with you? Did you guys stay up and chat all night? I've read everything from GENESIS* and on, i understand the difference I assure you. I knowth his word huh? Well methinks you knowth your pastors words but ignorth what's actually written.....ith.
So a cathedral isn't big enough to house god, but your heart can? Um........ cool, glad we cleared that up....... BY the way, do you know the exact dimensions of god? What would be big enough?
For your last question. Spritual relationship with a make believe character? Sure, I actually have been very connected to Harry Potter when I read the last book, it was very touching. Then again, from your comment you've a) shown pride that you are "in" with god more than me, and here I thought pride was a sin....tsk tsk....., secondly you also have shown that you refuse to consider even for a second that christianity is just a bunch of malarky because the bible says so. I urge you, read up on the various religions out there (Eastern Religions, pagan religions, dead religions ect....), heck even do it with your very narrow christian lense on, look at it like your scouting out the enemy for weaknesses. God doesn't say be willfully ignorant of everyone else, he says you just have to believe in him. So take your head out of your as.s and read a book (other than the bible of course)
"What evidence do you have to prove that the Bible is just a mythe? Bring your evidence."
Lack of evidence, where evidence should be plentiful, is itself powerful evidence.
The Bible tells us that the better part of one million people left Egypt under Moses, and that the entire generation perished there, in 40 years wandering.
They have never even found the remains of a campfire in the Wilderness, that can be tied to Exodus. And that despite repeated determined archaeological surveys.
If I told you that a massive rock concert had been held in your backyard last night, and you went out there and couldn't even find a beer bottle or cigarette butt on the gorunds, you'd know I wasn't telling the truth.
"Cedar Rapids – So you are saying, you rather take the risk of seeing yourself burn in hell?" - This is know as 'Pascal's Wager' and the argument as about as many holes in it as Swiss cheese. First, the is the assumption that believers go to heaven and non-believers don't. Perhaps god doesn't like a bunch of mindless sheeple, and lets in only people who think for themselves and live honest and compassionate lives because they think it's a good idea, not because they fear eternal punishment. Second, there thousands of religions to follow, and if you count religions no longer followed, probably tens of thousands. You have a very small chance of actually picking the one that turns out to be correct. Of course *every* religion claims they have the correct answers. Odin is going to be very upset when he finds out you've been praying to a different god all these years! On the other hand, an intelligent deity should accept the "I don't follow any of them since there was no proof" argument.
"Prove to me with evidence that there is no God and that Jesus Christ never existed. As for me, I will tell you this, God and His super natural can not be tested under the micro-scope, neither can they be observed by the spiritual blind eye who is walking in darkness, 24/7."
Your absurdity in a nutshell. First of all, what's proof of non-existance? Really, how can I show you proof that something isn't real? Secondly you not only ask for proof and then you say god can't be observed, but don't worry that's not proof he doesn't exist.
Seriously, do you even read what you write or do you poop on a keyboard and hit send?
'@ Cedar Rapids – Who is threatening you or any other unbeliever?'
god is of course.
@ Laughing
"I've read everything from GENESIS* and on, i understand the difference I assure you. "
Again, the word of God isn't given to the swines who has not interest in knowing God, spiritually. Also, does God speaks to me? Of course He does, why wouldn't he, after all, I am His child, the apple of His eye. Wouldn't you want to speak with your child? Also, I have no pride, but what I do boast is this, that I know the Lord as He has allowed me to know Him. Why don't you get off your high horse of pride and humble yourself to Him so he cant show you who he is?
Also, there is not need for me too study on any religion....they are all dead.
Proving the truth of Christianity by quoting from the Bible, is like proving that Kentucky Fried Chicken is the best on the market, by quoting Colonel Sanders.
@ Cedar Rapids – Hmmm, you seem angry, friend. Why would you turn such a wonderul free gift of salvation? God doesn't sen anyone to hell, the individual goes there on his/her own. Hell was created for Satan and his angels, but men preferred darkness rather the the Light, Jesus Christ, which separates us from God. Don't be a fool, friend, there is still time for you.
Um NO...read the bible to understand how primitive men saw the world. If you read the bible thinking it's a factual, historical account, you're a moron and a disappointment to God.
@ Laughing – "Seriously, do you even read what you write or do you poop on a keyboard and hit send?"
LOL – That's awesome. Definately a keeper quote.
@ Asklepios417 – Gosh, my friend, your arguement is just too......WEAK. It is written, by the fuits of the spirit, you shall know they are my disciples, not just by quoting the bible. Of course, many atheists quote it more than us on CNN, but hey, I can even see their rotten and terrible fruits on here. Sad, but true.
"Also, there is not need for me to study on any religion....they are all dead."
If you're wrong, you're in a lot of trouble.
Thor and his mighty hammer might be waiting for you.
@Helsgod "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." Susan B. Anthony
@HeISGod,
Okay, as you were so willing to "humbly boast" to us that "God" spoke to you. What did he sound like? Did you get to see him as well? Can you remember his exact words (I feel like if an all powerful being spoke directly to me I would remember every syllable)? Any clear evidence you could give would be great (and if it was in anyway true world altering).
While we're at it, can you help me out on this one. "God" made everything, and is infinitely powerful and wise. I am a lowly spec of a human (an athiest one at that). And yet, "God" CAN'T, as in the contraction of CAN NOT, meaning unable or incapable, speak to me if I have too much pride... in myself? So, if I chose to be proud, I am more powerful than "God"? I feel like you probably didn't mean to say that, perhaps you'd like to backpeda- I mean rephrase.
Matthew 4:8 " Again, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor."
The Flat Earth Theory in all its splendor.
Strange that the Son of God didn't realize you can't see the entire surface of the round earth from any one mountain peak, no matter how high it is. And there were kingdoms in Korea during Jesus' lifetime.
The Three Wise Men should have used that gold, incense and myrrh to buy baby Jesus some of the works of Pythagoras, who taught that the earth is spherical, centuries before.
Kid, there have been many different points in my life where I was a believer like you (not as crazy but still, believed), so it isn't like I read it only once as an atheist. This is tiring though, it's like arguing with a parrot. You can repeat words your pastor told you over and over again, but your words are meaningless, they have no soul, no content. It's cool you've learned to both read and write, the next step is to actually use your brain and give the words you write some meaning!
"@ Asklepios417 – Gosh, my friend, your arguement is just too......WEAK."
But in weakness is strength made perfect. (You can quote me).
Bye bye, HeIsGod. It's been fun. Take care.
I'm sorry, but I just have to jump in...
If there is a god, then why doesn't he ever do anything? If he did truly do miracles then he would have to defy the laws of physics at some point. This would be noticed by many scientists (including atheistic ones). Or a doctor would make a medical journal about someone's whole arm growing back. The fact that we haven't seen any of these things shows that god most likely doesn't exist, and if he does, he isn't responding to anyones prayers.
So answer me this. If there really is a god that exists, how is he reacting within our world? If he's speaking with people, why not speak to everyone so everyone knows that he exists?
Wow, Laughing, what exactly makes you think that everything I have been saying came from my Pastor? LOL, not once did I bring him up, but yet you think that I am preaching because I was taught by my Pastor? God alone has taught me so much about life without the help of my pastor. Yes, I learned from too as well, but all Glory and Honor goes to my Father God. Too bad you were a believer at one time in your life and decided to turn your back to God. Of course, Christ had warned us about people such as your self who would be enslaved by evil spirits. I hope one day you will open up your spiritual eyes and see how you have everything to lose. In Christ, we who believe, have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Neither do you, but again as I tell atheist, it’s a free choice of will that God has given each and everyone of us.
Also, why doesn’t God speak to atheists, because God will not hear an un-repented sinner’s prayer.
Have a good day, all, must get back to work. God bless you all!!
@HeIsGod: Then all prayer is in vain because all men are sinners.
Can someone please tell me why we even have a national cathedral? What happened to Separation church and state and not promoting one religion over another? Do we have a national synagogue or mosque? Please tell me my tax $$ didn't pay for this.
And No! This is not a nation formed based on the christian god. This is a secular nation, whether you agree or not.
No government support went to the construction of the National Cathedral, no tax dollars at all...all private donations. It is called the National Cathedral simply because of location. Many other denominations have a "national" presence in DC.
I can see that you have a firm grip on reality
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
Looks like someone should have prayed more...
Although this earthquake by itself means nothing, when we look around the world at all the natural disasters, famines, wars etc, one can't help but see them increasing (and projected to increase more, look at food shortages and increasing populations).
This is all prophesied is the Bible and is compared to birth pains. They will become more frequent and the end becomes closer. Nobody knows when, but the signs are occurring more frequently. For I do not want anyone to perish, and hope for all the find the love and peace that is Jesus Christ!
None of this, NONE, is new. And people have been proclaiming the end times for centuries.
Sorry, but these prophecies you're talking about have been said to be around the corner for oh.....2,000 years. Disasters happen all the time, food shortage has been around for a while in poorer nations (it's not a new thing). Instead of wasting your time on prayer, why not actually help the people who need help huh?
I worked at a Christian college 10 years ago. Just about every day I'd hear how the end times are upon us because of a new earthquake or hurricane, or liberals or gays.
I'm pretty sure I remember the same spiel from 30 years ago from televangelists.
Very True.
Yes none of this is new, but it's increase coupled with other prophecies (i.e. rapid increase in knowledge, Israel becoming a nation again, moral turpitude, etc) is quite fascinating. Only the Bible makes the claim to judge it by whether its prophecies are fullfilled or not, and they were/are/will all become true. Jesus is the alpha & the omega, the beginning & the end.
http://www.bibleuniverse.com/articles/second-coming-prophecies-fulfilled/increase-of-knowledge.aspx
I'm not saying the end times are a year away or even 5 years. It could be 50, 100, or even longer, however the signs are certainly approaching and at an increasing pace.
False teachers are another sign, and look how corrupt the church is these days. Spreading hate and not the Gospel.
I KNEW IT!!!! "Rapid increase in knowledge" is a THREAT! That's right, folks, let the churches keep you down! They're losing control by the day. WHY? People are wising up! Why listen to murderous, drug-using, adulterating, thieving "ministers of God's will"???
'Only the Bible makes the claim to judge it by whether its prophecies are fullfilled or not, and they were/are/will all become true'
lol, if you say so.
@Aguest – I'm not afraid of increase in knowledge, I actually welcome it. Just pointing out the fact that 80-90% of human's knowledge has come in the last decade. That's a fact my friend.
@Cedar – http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible
'@Cedar – http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible'
yeah, i had to stop after reading the nonsense of the first one.
Oh, come on, Cedar. They even have a "Probability of chance fulfillment" for each event. They thought HARD about this. ROFLMAO...
It's not really that disasters happen more often. With advances in communication we are just more likely to know about them now. If you look at the national geological survey earthquakes happen ALL the time. Of the 5 most destructive quakes only 2 occurred in the last 30 years. The other 3 occurred over an 800 years time span.
The interesting thing for me about all the natural disasters is that Christians come off just as badly as everyone else. Seems to me if god really existed he would do a better job of watching over is flock
So sad that is had damage. It's a beautiful building, a work of art. The stained-glass windows are stunning and very famous, very detailed. I hope the damage can be repaired.
Maybe a wake up call for the U.S. from a higher being, except you atheist who don't believe in such.
USA had too many wake-up calls from God but they are immune to it. I Samuel 2:25?
Wait,
so god sent us a wake-up call by damaging his own house of worship? Seriously, how does that make any sense?
And ignores damage to other buildings of course.
Well if it’s a wakeup call from a higher being a big part of his message seems to be he doesn’t like churches. Probably not too happy with Christians either
It is ABSOLUTELY NOT the tallest building in Washington. The Washington Monument is 555 feet tall, and the National Cathedral is 301 feet tall!
Depends how you look at it Ben,
If you put them next to each other, I think you're right, but considering the Cathedral is up on a hill, it gets a couple of extra feet.
Location.....location.....location.
So not the tallest but the heighest.
it's the "highest" not the "tallest" you god babbling freak.
The article didn't say it was the tallest building; it said that the tower was the HIGHEST POINT in Washington. As others have pointed out, the Cathedral sits on a hill, which makes the top of the tower the HIGHEST POINT.
I don't know who you think this god babbling freak is but I'm an atheist. Also an Engineer so spelling was never my thing. I'm pretty good with numbers though.
The cathedral is at the highest elevation point in DC. The building is not as tall, but its tallest point reaches higher than the tip of the washington monument because of the ground it sits on.
The center of a church is a "nave", not a "knave". "Knave" is a dishonest man or boy.
I'm pretty sure that the church's mason foreman walked through the "nave" not the "knave"....
"Out of my way knave! Yon Cathedral requires mine expertise!"
"I say thee nay. Ye shall not pass."
"Verily! Have at thee! I shall pass through you if you do not remove thine self!"
/fight breaks out.
Gloria in Excelsis or Gloria in Extremis. That tower unbalances the entire building and is one of the worst psuedo-gothic excrescences I've ever seen.
For a religious facility you'd think they'd be the most blessed and would have sustained the least amount damages from natural disasters. Look on the bright side, it's a good opportunity to get this building quake approved.
I'd be a bit more concerned with getting the South Anna and Calvert Cliffs nuclear plants "quake-approved" before some old church.
Paul was always the more advanced guitarist of the two. John even admitted that in his last interview. I think in general Paul was also a better songwriter, although John's lyrics were more clever.
Are you lost buddy?
Ah, "Winchester Cathedral" - I'm not sure if the Beatles ever did a cover of it?
I guess the magical man in the sky couldn't even protect a building from his own 'act of god'. So much for being all powerful.
How do you know that this wasn't part of God's judgment for splitting up the Christian body through denominations, creating structures that we call "church" and creating doctrine that isn't even biblical? Denominations and religion have done a number to this nation and the world. All we need is a real relationship with Jesus.
Occam's Razor. Look it up.
Why the hell do we have a national cathedral? Government shouldn't have anything to do with religion.
It's not government-owned. It is a privately built church that gladly hosts state functions such as presidential funerals and national memorial services. It welcomes people of all religions (or none). Those who contribute to the Cathedral and care about it regard it as a gift to all fellow humans. It is a work of art and a sanctuary of peace.
Agreed. But note that the cathedral is privately funded, mostly through donations. Zero govt. funding. It's not a government building.
Just because it is named "National" doesn't make it state owned or sponsored.
There never was any 'separation of church and state'. Do a little reading. The beauty of our (former)form of government was that you could adhere to any belief system you chose without being persecuted. That didn't mean the founding fathers were atheists.
But I wish it was that easy so I can name all the junks at my home "National" crap.
I assume the Roman Catholics must have a cathedral in Washington, too. I wonder if they've resented the Episcopal one being called the "national cathedral."
The Shrine of the National Cathedral, on Catholic University's campus, is the cathedral of the archdiocese of DC. It's nice and all, but it doesn't have a gargoyle that looks like Darth Vader or a stain glass window to honor the Apollo Program, so the Catholics should be jealous.
I'll be happy to take all your money that has "In God We Trust" off your hands...no charge!
Naomi
Damian, that's a thing of the past. Americans scorn OT, the best book on the war strategy.
---------
Of course it is, never look at the whole picture.
@JW, I gotta go. If you need to talk with me, find me again. I never like talking to multiple atheists. They are so stupid but have too many questions all at once. They should learn to stop bullying.
Adelina, you do realize most don't talk to you rather poke you for entertainment. You are the resident crazy.
I KNOW! We're the worst! All we do is defend ourselves and tell you to back up your statements. Athesits need to learn to turn the other cheek right?......Right?
Laughing, stop being stupid and read Pentateuch and the Gospel. Where are your parents now?
Well,
I've read the pentatuach a bunch (I am a jew you know), and the gospel I must admit I've only read once so I could probably brush up on it.
Also my parents are in Denver, why do you ask?
@Laughing, are they religious? You are a secular Jew. I wonder if you are grieving their hearts if they are religious Jews. Why do you bully me? Please leave me alone unless you have a serious question.
@Naomi
Firstly, does it really matter what my parents believe or if they think I should be a good little jew? (By the way, they could care less)
Secondly, you seem to think we "bully" you, um... how exactly? What do you call what you do, posting hateful things far and wide across this blog?(That is a serious question)
Which is it though? Do you want me to leave you alone or do you want me to pose a serious question?
@Laughing, yes, you should behave like a good little Jew to me. I deserve better treat-ment from you since I love and pray for Israel because of Jesus. Read the Gospels again, Laughing. (I think your name is degrading to your fellow Holocaust victims) There is no one but Jesus of Nazareth who fulfilled all the prophesies of the Jewish Bible.
Sorry,
Guess I should have learned that jews aren't allowed to laugh post 1945?
Also, you're support of israel means nothing to me, sorry, but it doesn't. If you really want me to be a good little jew then I can give you a very jewish perspective on your post. You're wrong, Jesus of Nazereth did not fulfill the prophacies of the Torah, and many that he did "fulfill" was the writers of the gospels trying to fit it in to get more jews to believe. For instance Jesus is supposed to be descended from King David yes? Well apparently his dad, Joseph, was a descendent....... but wait, he has no physical relationship to joseph, so Jesus isn't decsended from King David..... that's just the tip of the iceberg.
You also dare bring up the Holocaust? Fine, one thing I (and all jews) learned from the holocaust is to distrust the goyim. Personally I disagree with it, there are bad people and good people and just because you are a jew doesn't make you automatically good just like it doesn't automatically make you evil if you're a goy. But hey, if you want me to play the good little jew, fine, please take your prayers, your help and anything else you're doing and leave and don't try to force any of your wrong views on my fellow chosen people.
@Laughing: Mary is a descendant of Nathan, the son of David. It happened this way so that Jeremiah 22:24-30 will be also fulfilled, though Joseph is the mentioned king's descendant. Read it. @Laughing, so many true Christians died to protect the Jews because they had God's love for the you. Read real stories like "Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom.
OK
Two things:
1) I think you missed my point, which is to say that you say Mary is a descendent of David, and how do you know this? I referenced only the being a descendent of kings as one prerequisite to being the Jewish messiah that the gospels did everything they could to make Jeses conform to fit the prophecies. Then again, you and I will differ on this obviously.
2) I do not deny that there were brave heroes of all types in WWII that hid jews and others being sought by the nazis, However, 1/3 of the largest jewish population in Europe (poland) was desimated by their own neighbors. To this day, Poland (a devoutly catholic place) still has anti-semitism running rampant. Throughout history jews have been made the scapegoat and banished from their lands, or killed. We've learned (or at least we're learning) that exceptions to the rule doesn't mean we can let our guard down. Sorry, I don't trust any christian who's as adamant about israel's security as a jew. It reeks of ulterior motives and hidden agendas.
@Laughing: Read Luke chapter 3. Jesus is legally the Crown Prince through Joseph but also fulfills Jeremiah 22. A wonder of God's providence. @Laughing, so many Poles and Germans suffered and died, too. WW2 was a calamity upon everyone. We Asians had the most horrible time as well. Millions died EVERYWHERE, L-, not just the Jews – 70 million in total. Minority was never treated kindly anywhere. You have a intense lengthy record just because you survived on. No, Bible-literate Christians love the Jews like death. The love is God's love, eternal love.
But its ok for you to call them stupid though right? Apparenlty 'bullying', which most people would call 'replying to a post' is worse than calling someone stupid?
@Laughing: Catholics need to read the Bible. Bible-reading Christians love the Jews as God intends.
@Cedar, atheists are stupid. A fact. It's also a fact I've been bullied by atheists here.
'@Cedar, atheists are stupid. A fact.'
no, thats called an opinion, there is a difference.
It's also a fact I've been bullied by atheists here'
and from what i have seen you have been doing more than your fair share of name calling and 'bullying' yourself. That makes you a hypocrit. In fact i would say what you have shown on this forum would mean if i were you i shouldnt expect to find yourself at the head of the line for a happy afterlife anytime soon.
Incredible
Simply amazing. You seriously are going to say that atheists are stupid and then say you are being bullied? Stop, just stop.
You are also dead wrong about christians loving jews. Ever read the Passion? Sorry honey, but you're living in a fantasy world (not that you weren't already I guess) but to claim that christians have always loved the jews is rewriting history to the point of fiction.
@Laughing, read your Jewish Bible Psalm 14 and 53. It says atheists are fools and it's true. Atheists deliberately don't acknowledge their Creator God.
Jesus endured the pain and death for you so that you can be healed and rescued. Isaiah 53. What made you reject God, L-? What do you have beside your follies without God?
Naomi, while you're at the doctor's office this afternoon, will you make sure he increases the dose of your meds? Thanks, hon.
Naomi
Telling me to read a passage in the bible is about as useless as me referring to Harry Potter as a way to make my point. How do you know the passage about atheists being fools is true? Because you read it in the bible. Is it absolutely crazy to you that when people were writing the bible they didn't ," hey, what if an atheist comes along and tries to make a follower disbelieve in god. Got it! Let's add in that god says atheists are fools!".
Again, anytime you make a statement as if its truth you seem to have trouble separating opinion from fact.
As to your last question, what made me reject the idea of god? It was a long time coming. It was a mix of learning about cosmology, biology, and other religions around the world. If you look at it all separately then the bible has a certain sense to it, but once you start comparing and contrasting, thinking critically and historically, the bible immediately crumbles like a twig under a weight.
@Laughing, you were brainwashed. All the creation points to God. You chose not to see or think about Him. God designed, con-structed and operates and sustains the whole universe. Atheists were indeed horrible. They killed believers in my region like Nazis slaughtered the Jews.
Naomi
@Laughing, you were brainwashed. All the creation points to God. You chose not to see or think about Him. God designed, con-structed and operates and sustains the whole universe.
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Thank you for your opinion but it still does not equal factual.
Your really going to say I'M brainwashed? By who? Myself? How does one brainwash themself?
Secondly, the old "look around you at gods creation" argument. You're just inserting god into the equation because you think it helps make sense. I can assure you, we can explain most things int he world around us without god and now believers are backed into the corner of saying "well WHAT caused the big bang?" and "how did life start from nothing?" as if god were the only answer. We don't know the answers to those yet, but I can as.sure you that god is most likely not the answer.
Now what, may I ask, brainwashed you into becoming such an ardent believer?
Laughing, why is there something instead of nothing? What is the Cause? How come it's so orderly structured? Can you answer? Science has no answer. And we have this supernatural Book called the Bible on Planet Earth claiming the Author's signature. It's logical to accept God's Creatorship from observatory data and a Book like the Bible's existence. You are going against all evidences by denying God.
Naomi? What is so perfect? Were you not created in "His image and likeness"? Does "He" have disease, cancer, mental illness? How about structural flaws? Does "He" have an appendix, tonsils, wisdom teeth? Sounds like a pretty lousy design for some being that is so "perfect".
.What design? What structure? Dealing with engineering at the nanometer scale and below requires probabilities. Nothing is certain there.
@Guest, the sin effects destroyed the original perfection, but Jesus is coming back to restore everything. You need to repent before you leave this world or before He comes back.
Ok there is only one solution here we have to have a race. Christians have to prove that God exists and atheists have to prove what caused the big bang.
I heard, Mullah Qaddafi built an underground tunnel and bunker system equipped to maintain him for an extended period of time, bolstered with airtight doors and built to withstand heavy fire from unconventional weapons. Well, it looks as though Qaddafi has already reached the US East Coast - he is already knocking at the door - but had forgotten the magic word - "Open Sesame...Obama Sesame, O Canada!"
Yes, he's in there now with his girlfriend... Oops, wrong dictator. Yes, he's in there with a typewriter, writing romance novels... Oops, wrong again.
@Laughing,
First point is, yes, if the Bible can be used to justify the slaughter of people, then it can also be used to spit hatred. I don't think any Christian can deny that point. It's why Jesus preached "spirit of the law" versus "letter of the law." It's why, for Christians, it is imperative they study the Bible, not just cherry pick scripture and then try to apply it, using Jesus as the example.
Second, I can totally understand your point. You and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but I can at least respect the fact that you don't believe the same way I do. Then, we can agree to disagree.
This was supposed to be on a previous discussion. Sorry, folks.
Damian, Jews were ordered to keep the law in conducts but Christians were ordered to wear Jesus and keep the law in hearts as well, not just in conducts; the reason OT has 600 commands whereas NT has over 1,000 commands. Slaughter in OT was execution of villains for two times. The child-killing perv tribes were eliminated for the protection of others and the future generations. God took care of the innocents. It also means spiritual cleasing today. Study properly. Bible-illiterate Americans will never win wars.
Adelina is off her meds again
We will never win wars? Then, please, explain why America is not a British colony anymore.
Damian, that's a thing of the past. Americans scorn OT, the best book on the war strategy.
Please contact Saddam Hussein regarding American strategy. Osama Bin Laden would be a good resource too.
Why do you think that every time there's some kinda conflict, people want to yank the U.S. in? I don't think it's because we have a new age Samson to come smite our enemies with the jawbone of a donkey.
Damian, because USA is the Good Guy, the Liberator of the world. You've got to win, boy. But too many stupid atheists and perverts in USA nowadays.
Well now you're changing your premise. So, I'm right that America has a winning strategy when it comes to wars and we are that good at it. Glad you accepted my point. If America is good at one thing, we're good at war. We should be. After all, every fifty years or so, we're in another one.
As for athiests and perverts, I'm gonna leave that one alone. I have no way of telling the relative levels of intelligence in those people. And I'm gonna ascribe Luke 6:37-38 to my point.
Damian, God blessed America that's why she was strong; that's why she won. But I Samuel 2:22-26 may be coming. Thanks for the verses. I love both USA and atheists in Jesus, please know that. Damian, was I that bad? Read Corinthians chapter 6 for the issues we discussed.
@Damian
Can you please be our Naomi translator from now on? She seems to have taken a shine to you and since you can quote the bible back and forth, you can understand what she's trying to say.
Also can either you or Naomi please explain to me what an "atheist in Jesus" is?
@Laughing, look up the Scriptures. Don't be lazy. Google it. "Atheists in Jesus" does not stand alone. It means "I love atheists for the sake of Jesus". Got it?
@Naomi
Meh, no need, I could just quote the book of bokonon back at you but I think we would both get the same amount of meaning out of both books.
You don't seem to love Atheists at all, in fact from all your previous posts, you seem hel.lbent of ridding the world of atheists as soon as possible.
@Naomi,
I believe God blesses America. I do, but America is not one voice. It is not one people. It is a conglomerate of people of different races, ethnicities, religions and beliefs. Some of those people include the athiests. But we, as Christians, have to avoid accusations against people. We can dislike what they are doing, we can even speak out against things that are not right, yet we are to love them unconditionally, which admittedly, is difficult at times. Remember, Christ came for them too.
2 Timothy 4:2 states we should "Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction." Look back at your posts. Do you words represent this? I think you'll find that your words are harsh and sharp and are not being done in love. Sometimes, it's difficult for people to realize, we are in a text-based medium which precludes us from having the benefit of inflection and tone and therefore we are subject to the way the reader reads our words. This makes it especially necessary for us to be careful with the words we use.
I don't think you're a horrible person. I think you merely need to watch what you say and how you say it, and make sure your words represent your beliefs through God.
@Laughing,
Hahahahahaha! Sure. I'd be happy to.
@Damian, thank you. I didn't know you were Christian. Damian, I've been angry because American atheists blaspheme. Among all people, the Americans! The ones who got the most and best Christian blessings on earth! But I never hated them. You know Christians cannot hate anyone. I meant to describe what they are doing in the way they can make sense. I think my descriptions were correct, though. Actually less than the reality. But thank you for your letter. I got what you mean.
@Naomi,
I understand how you feel. Believe me, I do. But remember what Christ said about anger. Matthew 5:22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
I understand 100% what you are talking about blasphemy. Back in the day, I used to get so angry. It saddens me, but I also ascribe to another statement Jesus said in John 15:20-25, "Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’"
If you speak the truth in a spirit of love, they may make fun of you and blaspheme further. But is that any less than the Jesus and the Disciplles endured? Jesus was crucified for saying what He did and almost all of the disciples were killed in some brutal manner (crucifixition, stoning, etc). Don't let the words of man shake your peace in God. Do not give them reason to hurl accusations your way and we can do that by treating them with love and kindness and not judgment.
@Damian, thank you. I really appreciate it.
@Naomi,
While I didn't say anything new, you're more than welcome. 🙂 Have a great day and God Bless.
@Damian, thank you. God bless you, too. What is your denomination, may I ask? I'm Evangelical Protestant, but I live outside of USA.
@Naomi,
Denomination is such an ugly word, at least for me. I consider myself a "Christ Follower" as opposed to one of a particular religion (my reason is, the church never saved anyone. Only Christ can do that.), but the church I attend is part of the Assembles of God which is Evangelical Pentecostal.
Damian, that's very good. I like denominations. It's like a family tree. The Church history is exciting. "Blood of the martyrs is a seed of the Church." So many Christians suffered for people like us in remote places can get the Gospel finally last century for the first time. I love the Christian churches.
Evangelical . That explains plenty. Please now go take your meds now.
@Naomi,
They did and so it is so important to remember their sacrifice. Can I ask where you are writing from exactly? You obviously have a completely different viewpoint on Christianity and the like, being in another country.
Naomi
@Damian, ... I'm Evangelical Protestant, but I live outside of USA.
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This epxlains your lack of understanding regarding our country (Democracy etc) as well as mental shortcomings.
Damian, I'm from Asia. Bloodshed by atheists is fairly new to us. And we know how godless humans in power behave firsthand. I wanted to give Americans facts from different dimention though I ended up making only plenty enemies. How am I different? I was a little surprised to find that Western Christians try to distant themselves from the name "Christian." I'm sorry you have to carry the sad past because Western Civilization has been Christian for the most, but really the Christian West did all the great works for all mankind. There were abuses but it's hard to be good and powerful, isn't it? I think Liberal educators in the West suceeded to make the citizens hate Christianity.
Damian, but this hatred of Christianity by Europeans and Americans is abnormal. We have our own traditional religions with horrible pasts but we don't express such hatred.
Naomi
Damian, I'm from Asia. Bloodshed by atheists is fairly new to us. And we know how godless humans in power behave firsthand. I wanted to give Americans facts from different dimention though I ended up making only plenty enemies. How am I different? I was a little surprised to find that Western Christians try to distant themselves from the name "Christian." I'm sorry you have to carry the sad past because Western Civilization has been Christian for the most, but really the Christian West did all the great works for all mankind. There were abuses but it's hard to be good and powerful, isn't it? I think Liberal educators in the West suceeded to make the citizens hate Christianity.
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Perhaps you need to travel a little in the USA because you would see how limited your perception of the West is. It appears you do not have a sense or grasp the balance of our democracy. For the most part, most christians are not like the Taliban trying to impose their god's law. There are some (evangelicals) who are starting to act like the taliban. It is these types atheists and agnostics tend to resist. The downfall of our country as some like you might say starts around the time the evangelicals started making a push and disrespecting freedom and our consitution.
Naomi
Damian, but this hatred of Christianity by Europeans and Americans is abnormal. We have our own traditional religions with horrible pasts but we don't express such hatred.
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I can't speak for Europe. However here I think you have a skewed view of it. I already addressed it above for here. I have no issue with churches or christians as long as they don't try to use the government to impose their morals. Because you love jesus doesn't mean USA belongs to Jesus.
@Anti-, you never encountered Taliban. They behave a lot better than American atheists. And no Christian is like Muslims or atheists. You all need sanity by Christian education, that's for sure. I was convinced Christianity is good and right by seeing how it is hated by the Westerners in recent years.
Naomi
@Anti-, you never encountered Taliban. They behave a lot better than American atheists. And no Christian is like Muslims or atheists. You all need sanity by Christian education, that's for sure. I was convinced Christianity is good and right by seeing how it is hated by the Westerners in recent years.
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Just when I thought maybe...just maybe you were showing signs of hope in communication skills. Ah back to the crazy farm
@Anti-, don't forcibly impose your legal murder and perversion upon the American society. Morality is collective responsibility. Get ready to battle with Christians as long as you plan to impose your filth upon the society. We will not just watch our society turn into a Sodom and get destroyed.
@Anti-, I think you misunderstand Christians. The methods of battles are different, but all true Christians are serious about combating for the morality of the society. Our nations haven't been that perv like the West, not yet, but we plan to battle against whatever comes.
Damian, I'm from Asia. Bloodshed by atheists is fairly new to us. And we know how godless humans in power behave firsthand. I wanted to give Americans facts from different dimention though I ended up making only plenty enemies. How am I different? I was a little surprised to find that Western Christians try to distant themselves from the name "Christian." I'm sorry you have to carry the sad past because Western Civilization has been Christian for the most, but really the Christian West did all the great works for all mankind. There were abuses but it's hard to be good and powerful, isn't it? I think Liberal educators in the West suceeded to make the citizens hate Christianity.
--
Naomi, perhaps it is a language barrier. I'm not certain what your first language is, so this is only a possible solution to the problem, and it may not be relevant at all. The word "pervert" in America is a derisive term used for pedophiles and the se.xually deviant. It's a negative word, so when you say things like "athiests and perverts", it brings about a conotation that the two are closely related or somehow linked. No one wants to be linked to perverts.
Another issue is, while no one can deny that America is predominantly Christian, we as a society do not associate the two. One can be an American without being a Christian, as you've seen on these boards. But I think many Athiests think that calling all Westerners Christian to be the same as calling all Asians Buddists. While Buddism is definitely prevalent in places such as China, it is not a Buddist nation (by my understanding, I believe China actively opposes any religion, but I could be wrong.)
I don't think all athiests hate Christianity, anymoreso than I think all Christians hate athiests. Are there athiests who hate Christians? Absolutely. Are there Christians who hate athiests? Certainly. But where America is strong is that we can say, "Hey, you believe what you believe, and I believe differently, but that doesn't stop us from working together."
"But where America is strong is that we can say, "Hey, you believe what you believe, and I believe differently, but that doesn't stop us from working together."
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On a serious note I truly think that Adelina has no concept of this. Perhaps because of where she lives. Also some of the evangelicals here in our own country have no concept of this as well. Most christians here do I believe. Our society functions quite well like this. It is the low percentage of taliban types that have chosen not to respect this and wish to divide people. We can see how they are destroying the GOP.
@Anti-, don't forcibly impose your legal murder and perversion upon the American society. Morality is collective responsibility. Get ready to battle with Christians as long as you plan to impose your filth upon the society. We will not just watch our society turn into a Sodom and get destroyed.
-
@Naomi,
This was what I was referring to. It's language like this that turns people off from Christianity and seeing who Christ really is. A lot of what you say is down to how you say it. I can understand what you are saying. Essentially, what you are trying to say is, "As a nation, we need to reject immorality. I, as a Christian, believe murder is wrong. I have trouble standing by watching horrible depravities on this Earth. Here is what I think we can do to resolve this issue..."
Do you see? I said essentially the same thing you did, but I did not accuse anyone of anything. And I think even athiests can get on board with the idea that murder is wrong. But I don't think I'll get a fiery rebuttal. Jesus spoke to the common man on a common level, because had He spoken in the manner you did, He would have turned people away from Him. It's the reason Jesus spoke in parables.
"@Anti-, you never encountered Taliban."
Naomi, perhaps you've heard of 9/11? We mostly certainly HAVE encountered the Taliban!
DamianKnight
@Anti-, don't forcibly impose your legal murder and perversion upon the American society. Morality is collective responsibility. Get ready to battle with Christians as long as you plan to impose your filth upon the society. We will not just watch our society turn into a Sodom and get destroyed.
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@Naomi,
This was what I was referring to. It's language like this that turns people off from Christianity and seeing who Christ really is. A lot of what you say is down to how you say it. I can understand what you are saying. Essentially, what you are trying to say is, "As a nation, we need to reject immorality. I, as a Christian, believe murder is wrong. I have trouble standing by watching horrible depravities on this Earth. Here is what I think we can do to resolve this issue..."
Do you see? I said essentially the same thing you did, but I did not accuse anyone of anything. And I think even athiests can get on board with the idea that murder is wrong. But I don't think I'll get a fiery rebuttal. Jesus spoke to the common man on a common level, because had He spoken in the manner you did, He would have turned people away from Him. It's the reason Jesus spoke in parables.
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Damian she is far from being a christian and has tunnel vision. I suspect she knows very little about what jesus was about. She has no spiritual home, just the darkness of ignorance.
@ anti, Damian and Laughing
I find it interesting and maybe a bit encouraging how the three of you can have this exchange in the hopes of adding some reasonableness to the views that were being expressed. Each of you clearly has a very different view point. Lately I am very discouraged by the need for so many people to place a label on the person next to them. It wouldn't be so bad if the labels were meant to help us to better understand each other but it is honestly a little scary how quickly and harshly some chose to judge those around them. My experiences have taught me that our morality is strongest when it comes from a place of love and respect for our neighbors and not our of fear. Unfortunately, my experience with religion was that too often the congregation was controlled by fear of consequences and not the desire to do what was right and good. I would still consider myself a Christian, but I don't strongly align myself with a specific denomination.
I was baptized and married in a Baptist church. My late husband was agnostic. When I met him In college he still considered himself a Baptist but had begun to question the teachings of the church. He was hardly immoral or hateful and I can quite honestly say that as far as imposing his beliefs on others he wouldn't bother.