Jesus, bombs and ice cream
Christian activist Shane Claiborne teamed up with Ben Cohen, of Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream, for a presentation on militarism and ice cream.
September 11th, 2011
01:26 PM ET

Jesus, bombs and ice cream

By Sarah Hoye, CNN

Philadelphia (CNN) - An unlikely pairing took to the stage Saturday in front of a sold out audience at World Café Live to promote peace and ice cream.
Philadelphia-based Christian author and activist Shane Claiborne partnered with Ben Cohen, co-founder of Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream, to raise public awareness about federal military spending.
The evening started off on a somber note with Cohen pouring 10,000 BB gun pellets into a metal container to illustrate the power of the United States’ nuclear arsenal in front of a stunned audience.
“It’s that kind of overkill mentality that drives an out-of-control Pentagon budget,” he said.
Cohen later used Oreos - with each one representing $10 billion of federal spending – to show how the money stacks up compared to social programs.
Cohen had read Claiborne’s book, “Jesus for President,” and thought the author was “on to something.”

The two were later introduced and planed the "Jesus, Bombs and Ice Cream Tour" over the past year.

“Imagine a world with fewer bombs and more ice cream,” Claiborne said. “We’re here (tonight) because it’s time to re-think our world and our federal budget.”
“There’s no better way we can imagine honoring the anniversary than by having hope that another world is possible,” he said.
The duo hosted the 90-minute variety show critiquing military spending, violence and war. It included Iraq veteran-turned-activist Logan Laituri, and Terry Rockefeller, who lost her sister during the September 11 attacks.

“There can be no war on terror. War is terror,” said Rockefeller who has traveled to the Middle East as part of the anti-war group September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. 

Artist and welder Josh Seitzer transformed a non-firing AK-47 into a potato pitchfork during Saturday

The event was peppered with musical performances by Philadelphia-based Christian rockers the Psalters and Nashville singer-songwriter John Francis. 
Things grew lighter by the end of the evening, when the hosts asked audience members to fight for a more peaceful world before the comical anti-violence juggling act by world champion juggler Josh Horton left them laughing.

Cohen lay on the stage while Horton juggled large knives above him.
And of course, there was ice cream, courtesy of Ben and Jerry’s.
“If we’re going to have fewer bombs and more ice cream, we need to shift our budget to what helps people live instead of killing people,” Cohen said.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 9/11 • Christianity

soundoff (279 Responses)
  1. *frank*

    I just wanted to say that "Christian activist Shane Claiborne" looks like an immensely irritating person. Thank you for listening.

    September 11, 2011 at 7:50 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Sorry that you just don't get it. Thanks for listening (but then again, you probably aren't).

      September 11, 2011 at 7:59 pm |
    • kimsland

      I agree with a world without bombs too.
      But a 'Christian activists' is like fighting fire with fire.
      What we need is for the world to stand up and say enough with this religious ridiculous, religion is wrong for all.

      September 11, 2011 at 8:08 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Well, I hope the Christian activists irritates the hell out of the military-industrial complex. And for those who go out of their way not to get it, there are MANY Christian sects and individual Christians with excellent pacifist credentials. So no, this is not fighting fire with fire.

      September 11, 2011 at 9:52 pm |
  2. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    The more I see of the 'believers' on this forum, the more repulsed and horrified I am. I don't want any part of a religion that attracts the likes of Addled, HS, or the rest of the looney-tunes.

    Why would I? Why would any sentient being who has any brains at all?

    September 11, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • Answer


      No need to be frustrated by the religious zealots. Education is your best route.
      I became an atheist rather early in life – high school – at grade ten. It was due to a great geography teacher.

      It would help also if you took a basic refresher on human psychology. I highly recommend psychology because once you recognize your own emotional reaction to stimuli from these preachers you'll be prepare to buffer their assaults.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:22 pm |
    • kimsland

      I have found that ridiculing any religious persons beliefs gives the best results.
      It makes me happy (ie We have all laughed at religious fools at one point in our lives) and it shows them how pathetic they are with their barbaric beliefs.

      The world needs a non-religious leader in our 21st century, seriously no one really believes this rubbish any longer.
      When I debate with christians they usually respond with the goodness and love that they show. I quickly explain that religion is not about that, (ie we can all be good to others and show love, even as Atheists, strange as it is !) Religion is about believing in crazy stories, written thousands of years ago, about things such as a man walking on water.

      Religion is not required anymore in our scientific world. We now know where babies come from, and how planets form in the universe. Earth is also Not the center of the universe (as once thought) With have a greater knowledge and less fear of witches and demons! We have grown.

      Down with ALL religion.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:34 pm |
    • Answer


      No. That assumption is wrong.
      I do not support that statement simply because a leader is about capability. Can the person do the job that the person is elected to do. If the capability is not there you would have a useless person in charge. So religion needs to be way below capability.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:39 pm |
    • kimsland

      I don't understand your reply answer?

      Religion should be totally abolished, and leaders that keep religion (even a little bit) should not be elected at all.
      Are you religious? Oh, sorry we only employ intelligent people that understand the world and science.
      This is what is needed now, someone who has the ' natural world' in mind, not someone who thinks they are going to heaven when they die?? Even though their brain, heart and entire is dead.

      Religion is about fear, and how to keep people stupid. I don't want either of those in my life.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Answer


      Maybe I should've highlighted this from your post...

      "The world needs a non-religious leader in our 21st century, seriously no one really believes this rubbish any longer."

      This statement is the point of my response. Religion should be done away – yes completely!. It is the present that you mentioned, we are still in the 21st century. As it stands there is still positions held by the religious. Reality of true leadership and the future are not here yet. We are wishing until it happens. So I advocate a standing fight to kill off religion. I know you are too.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:51 pm |
    • kimsland

      Sorry I missed a bad word.

      "The world needs a non-religious leader in our 21st century, seriously no one really believes this RELIGIOUS rubbish any longer."

      September 11, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
    • Answer


      I know you're shaking your head and so am I.
      Others are too. I wanna live up to the point of when actually religion will die. Alas I'll be dead and not be able to see it.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:59 pm |
    • kimsland

      The only way we can live on, is through our children.
      By educating them and telling them the truth, and showing them the mistakes of the past.
      Our children will one day benefit from a world WITHOUT religion, and this is enough for me to know that we are going in the right direction.

      September 11, 2011 at 8:05 pm |
    • Answer


      I wholeheartedly agree. Don't let your kids be indoctrinated by religion.

      September 11, 2011 at 8:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality's multiple personalities ... sending Tom, Tom out as his biting dog.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:42 am |
  3. Answer


    For example:
    10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base * among you, but being absent am bold toward you:

    You can come across as the person of betterment. I am here for your benefit. I am here not to lie. You will listen and see how my view is better than your view. Meekness of my position shows that I am opened to you to accept you.

    Will you not consider my position? If you do oppose .. why? Are you afraid that I am right? Why not then try it.

    September 11, 2011 at 7:07 pm |
    • Answer


      It's too long to scroll and add reply to bottom of HeavenSent.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son


      September 11, 2011 at 7:10 pm |
    • Answer


      The main reason for what I stated on emotions is purely that.

      Why do you not agree? The response is always an emotional one.
      The person daunted with a barrage of emotions. Of why you do not trust me when I use smooth words. Such good words. Here I am favoring you with meekness. I am willing to lead you. Why not follow? Most people would have doubts and ask slightly. Employing questions.. if you can't ask .. you will follow.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're nothing more than another snake-oil salesman, Answer. I don't have the time of day for those that seek to infringe upon my human or civil rights in the name of any god.

      I don't believe in a god who demands fear and worship, who inflicts pain and suffering for no reason, who refuses to intervene on behalf of the weak and small.

      It's your hell, honey. You burn in it.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bite me, Addled. You couldn't speak "smoothly" if you were facing a firing squad and had to plead for mercy. Get bent.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
    • Answer


      For the record, I am an atheist. I see doctrine for what they are. I will not convert you. I advise to stay away from religion.
      I hope your whole family and future generations for eons too will stay away from it.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:14 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Answer & Tom,,,,,,,

      The psychological mainstreams of religious devotees are affixed augmentations, meaning the flocks are led by their own idealisms and in their admonitions' grievings due their insolent natures, they need to be guided by snippets of booked revelations by someone other then their own understandings. Yes? No? Maybe?

      September 11, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
    • Answer


      Well that's my opinion on how you are. It's what I recognize as coming from the posts of those religion. You have to ask yourself on why you need religion. I know you covet your faith and convince that your view leads to god. I find it otherwise.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • Answer


      Have you ever asked yourself .. what if I were born in India instead? Have you ever thought of what your position on faith might fall today?

      I bet you haven't. Here's the logic that most people do see. If your family were from India – you'd be what there indoctrination would be – as they followed.

      You could say in your defense – that God himself choose your life to be a Christian. It is a probably. To say this is the absolute truth you would need more proof than you are capable of providing. So the convenient 'false logic' is that your faith stems from your belief that your chosen Christianity is allowing you to view your Christian upbringing.

      You can't provide proof. You can provide faith only to what you have accepted. So in placating yourself to your chosen faith since you are raised in the America's – you are now the embodiment of this area's faith. Here in I am presuming your religion and birthplaces. You may correct me.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:34 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, shut up, "Dick". You're so stupid it pains me to read your posts. Take an English class, you twit.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      Have you ever asked yourself .. what if I were born in India instead? Have you ever thought of what your position on faith might fall today?

      “No Answer, I haven’t”

      I bet you haven't. Here's the logic that most people do see. If your family were from India – you'd be what there indoctrination would be – as they followed.

      “It’s a possibility Answer, but since I was born here in the USA, I can only aspire to that which confronts me now, which is the precepts of Christ Jesus.”

      You could say in your defense – that God himself choose your life to be a Christian. It is a probably. To say this is the absolute truth you would need more proof than you are capable of providing. So the convenient 'false logic' is that your faith stems from your belief that your chosen Christianity is allowing you to view your Christian upbringing.

      “ I was brought up by a drunkard father and a sober mother who both did go and gamble playing poker with their friends almost every weekend. I did not find Christianity until I was in my 20’s.”

      You can't provide proof. You can provide faith only to what you have accepted. So in placating yourself to your chosen faith since you are raised in the America's – you are now the embodiment of this area's faith. Here in I am presuming your religion and birthplaces. You may correct me.

      “I have accepted Christ Jesus but on my terms and not the terms of the religious. I am bound to believe every word Christ Jesus is reportedly to have spoken and upon certain scriptures that embolden my Christian Beliefs. I fear GOD due His immensity but have found a sense of peacefulness knowing that what we are made of is exactly what all things we see are made of which is what GOD is attempting to emulate in His Grand scale of things! You see Answer, I know with acertainty that within the dark places of inner space are exactly what the places in outer space are made of and GOD is aspiring to emulate.” Too much to comprehend? Yes? No? Maybe? Or?

      September 11, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Answer, you might as well post your reply to Reality, since, Tom, Tom is one of his multiple handles.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:44 am |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Hey, Heaven's Stinker, since you're SO adept at research, when are you going to find the post you claimed I wrote? You haven't managed to prove your claim about me; why should I believe your claims about what the Bible says?

    September 11, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Why Tom, Tom (cough) Reality, you always tip your hand (LOL). Every time I reply to one of you numerous ridiculous posts, you go after me with one of your multiple handles.

      Too funny.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:45 am |
  5. AGuest9

    Today we observe the tenth anniversary of an exhibit of what acts organized religion is responsible for.

    September 11, 2011 at 6:12 pm |
    • Answer

      Today is actually a day for denial.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:17 pm |
  6. Richard S Kaiser

    Mat 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

    1Cr 3:9 “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.”

    1Cr 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    Luk 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside/within you."

    1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are

    1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    Hidden in darkness are the smallest things and likewise hidden in the night skies are the largest things. Both things be they the very smallest or the very largest are themselves of the sameness.

    September 11, 2011 at 6:11 pm |
    • Answer


      Hey Herbert .. calling Herbert ..

      What is your opinion of this post? It's posted here now twice. Cut and pasted.
      I can imagine yourself agreeing to it as -not- spam. Why do I presume that? Simply. You support this post. You are not against it for it being here. You like it.

      Whatever will you do with your brand of morality?

      September 11, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Answer,,,,,, I reposted it because I found a mistake,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 🙂

      September 11, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • Answer


      It still is considered somewhat spam. You could've posted a reply to your initial post.
      Reality's might as well have been the same in your case for all I care. As I've mentioned I have ignored Reality's post.
      So I'm open to your opinion on his actions.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:26 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Answer

      I have told reality in passing of his always and I do mean always reposting His blatherings time after time! I only re-post due a mistake. Sorry though I should've put such at the same posting, My Bad! 🙂

      September 11, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
    • Answer


      I know. As you've explained your actions I see nothing to behold onto you. Take care.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:32 pm |
  7. la paix

    Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
    Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.
    Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.
    Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.
    Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.
    Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
    Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.
    Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
    Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
    Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler,
    à être compris qu'à comprendre,
    à être aimé qu'à aimer,
    car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit,
    c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné,
    c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie.

    September 11, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • Ben & Jerry

      oui! oui!

      September 11, 2011 at 5:55 pm |
    • kiddo

      @Ben & Jerry

      love the chokolate chip cookie flavor.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
    • Ben & Jerry


      oui, oui!

      Secret ingredient is 'Peace' go spread the word around

      "PEACE to ALL"

      September 11, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • Answer

      I really need to get back to studying my french. Can only comprehend a few. That's sad of me.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
  8. I, Herbert Juarez, am a run-of-the-mill troll of slightly below average intelligence. Many CNN blog posters don't recognize this because they are neophytes to the internet. Please report all of my trolling posts (i.e.--100% of my posts) as abuse. It's for

    Thank you
    and god bless.

    September 11, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • (it's for my own good.)

      god bless

      September 11, 2011 at 5:48 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Go for it you wally eyed, snaggle toothed,slack jawed ,snot dripping ,pus sucking,sob.God bless

      September 11, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Answer


      Your insults do not even have bite.

      You must go educate yourself better. At the current level you are at ... you might as well dine on feces.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      After you

      September 11, 2011 at 6:01 pm |
    • Answer


      Oh you're inviting me out? For feces? You must know all the best places.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
    • Answer

      Please continue to show us more of your ignorance and hatred. I like abusing your kind.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:06 pm |
    • Herbert's Fecal Bar and P1ssery

      Boss! The menu has hit the fan! Boss!

      September 11, 2011 at 6:41 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      So we are agreed then hit report abuse.

      September 11, 2011 at 9:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality can't stand anyone else to post their opinions opposite of him ... so he sends his multiple handles to insult true Christians that actually read Jesus' wisdom. Reality and his multiple handles have NO wisdom. They are still in the dark as the heathen he is.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:48 am |
  9. herbert juarez

    reality posts are copy paste spam hit report abuse

    September 11, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
    • Answer

      What about HeavenSent's cut and paste?

      Always the religious garbage quotes from the bible. Get that deleted. Let me see that you would go and report that as abuse also.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      The issue i'm dealing with is realitys bs, you got an axe to grind?Do your own.Hit report abuse on ALL reality posts!It's the reasonable thing to do.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • Answer

      I don't care about it. If those posts are too long I ignore them. Simple for me.
      What's your beef with Reality. You don't like his cut and paste. Ignore them. It's simple right?

      Hey I ignore his posts – the ones I have already recognized as – not 'new'. So why shouldn't you adopt that behavior?
      It's because of your hate isn't it? He's gone and trashed you to the nine hells and you have no retaliation against it?

      Let's see what's in your black heart ..

      September 11, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • No.


      September 11, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • Jesus hates you herbert juarez...

      Haters gonna hate.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:31 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      reality doesn't trash anything its already trash, it's spam,the garbage,sewage and nuclear waste of written material.i intend to use the report abuse option and encourage everyone to do the same.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • Answer


      Well you see, you've just went on a tirade of insults. Observer was commenting on my behavior a little while ago..
      You can scroll for it. No matter what you want to belief – you have given validation on the usage of hatred. Insults are never nice. Insults are opinions of what you hold. You hold hate. It's right that we return it to you – to give you insight.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:53 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Your opinion and a buck will get you something from the dollar menu at McDonalds.You've mistaken me for someone who cares for your opinion.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Actually answer i have decided to post all that i've learned from you...

      September 11, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
    • Answer


      For you to say that it please me. Continue on.
      You'll fight with hatred to end hatred? Are you here to fight for peace? Really?
      Show us that you are the better man. Tell us why your hate is why it is? I can plainly see you hold no logic.
      Everything about you is based on faith. Faith has no logic so I do know you can never really learn logic from myself.

      I have no doubt you will never employ logic to convince yourself what religion has solely hammered into you.
      So fire away with hate. You'll label, you'll post with "Jesus .. whatever..."

      You'll go back to using quotes.. you'll condemn.. you'll preach. You'll never use any semblance of logic.
      I would like to see your honest attempt at logic though. It would then confirm that you are not without hope to be educated.
      It's my wish on your lot.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:12 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      So we are agreed then hit report abuse.God bless

      September 11, 2011 at 9:29 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      We are agreed then hit report abuse.God bless

      September 11, 2011 at 9:30 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Herbert, that's why Reality insults you with his multiple handles (e.g. Tom, Tom, the pipers son, Colin, Truther and oh, so many more). We're actually talking with him throughout these posts.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:50 am |
  10. Reality

    Something for the Christian ice cream cone:

    (only for new "consumers")

    Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.
    Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospels being mostly fiction.

    Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European/Utah, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!

    So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?

    September 11, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Why Reality, why don't you post under your multiple handles like Tommie, Tom as you spew your nonsense against my postings. Hypocrite PUNK.


      September 12, 2011 at 9:52 am |
  11. Peace Prayer

    Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
    Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
    Where there is injury, pardon.
    Where there is doubt, faith.
    Where there is despair, hope.
    Where there is darkness, light.
    Where there is sadness, joy.

    O Divine Master,
    grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
    to be understood, as to understand;
    to be loved, as to love.
    For it is in giving that we receive.
    It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
    and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.


    St Francis

    September 11, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
    • Reality

      The prayer of St. Francis was not written by said saint.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      I am Christian BUT I appreciate when you correct the dreamy people .. because it is not BEING Christian to imagine things about ST. Francis, ST. Patrick, Aqunas or Becket .. of Revelations or the bible itself or codes (Divinci codes); so much nonsense has been foisted over the centuries. And also for current misinformers (end of the world, virgins, junk hanging in the windsheild ..incredible stuff).

      September 11, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
  12. Richard S Kaiser

    Mat 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

    1Cr 3:9 “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.”

    1Cr 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    Luk 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside/within you."

    1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are

    1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    Hidden in darkness are of the smallest things and like in the night skies are of the largest things. Both things be they the very smallest or the very largest are themselves of sameness.

    September 11, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
  13. John Richardson

    @RightTurnClyde You should read some of Noam Chomsky's stuff on the liberal elite. He's far left, but I think you'll actually appreciate a lot of what he has to say. He's no fave of mine on balance, but his is a voice well worth familiarizing oneself with.

    September 11, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      II may have read some of that at Loyola U. The problem with the liberal (expectations) .. we can all write lofty and high sounding notions of human interaction (as long as somebody pays the price). The liberals like to write themselves BIG checks and then not worry paying (and they never expect to pay). A liberal folk singer (very privileged .. Caddy & Daddy ) said "how horrible slavery must have been .. can you imagine being owned?" (why yes I was owned .. oh no she says ... oh yes .. so you can drive the caddy and sing folks songs .. and have your daddy pay all your bills and run interference whenever you get into trouble).. so the rest of us had to go (were forced .. we did not ASK can we please go .. we were OWNED .. BY YOU! You say you never owned slaves - yes you did .. and still do)

      September 11, 2011 at 4:48 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Well, Chomsky makes a lot of money and has a pretty privileged life as a professor at MIT. No doubt about that. But he still has some interesting thoughts on this nations true power centers and their motives and sense of enti-tlement that you might get a kick out of. Go to youtube and search Noam Chomsky. Lots of stuff there. You won't for sure like all of it. But somewhere along the line, all thinkers must realize that there is no one out there speaking all and only the absolute truth. It's a search. Cast your net wide!

      September 11, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
  14. facts not fiction

    Hey David taxing the "rich" and closing the loopholes won't put a dent in anything. Acutally proven otherwise as this slows investing and hurts business cash flow which weakes the economy and consumer confidence. The answer is to cut (majorly) government spending and loosen up restrictions on businesses. Or you can move to canada like you did in the 60's.

    September 11, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Oppression and suppression of American workers are not Christian principals.Neither is greed.In the past 12 years the top 1% of earners in America saw their income go up 383%,productivity rose as well, yet the average Americans earnings remained stagnant.As a reward corporate america closed 30,000 plants and exported millions of jobs.Bottom line reganomics never worked and is now destroying America.Time for the rich to ante up and kick in,your tea party b.s "facts"don't fly!

      September 11, 2011 at 4:34 pm |
  15. Hesalive

    Jesus is lord, now and forevermore. His kingdom, though, is not of this world. He told us to turn the other cheek. Never once did he say to kill for him; he wants us to die for him.

    September 11, 2011 at 3:18 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      Turn the other buttcheek? That's weird.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • but

      awkward-funny how your mind cannot think beyond ' butt', that it reflects in your commetary!!!!

      September 11, 2011 at 3:47 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      Booty booty buttcheeks! Booty buttcheeks!


      September 11, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • Answer

      "Jesus is lord, now and forevermore. His kingdom, though, is not of this world. He told us to turn the other cheek."

      Once again the same idiotic statements.

      You can only only assert and attribute those statement to yourself. Proving it, requires more than your feeble faith.
      Therefore your words are useless.

      I'll give you some logic to help you. You are asserting your version of the lord.
      A muslim would say Allah. Difference in opinion. So you are both just arguing. Both statements do not enhance each other to understand each other. Self promotion of their personal deity.

      His kingdom ... so you know where it is? You've been there – you've died recently? How nice.
      Once again futile use of faith to convince your own mind that you're secured – an emotional need to quell fear. Maybe you won't go to heaven. As such you've bet your life to promote this.. for out of fear you must continue this promotion.

      'He' told us to turn the other cheek? Once again – you and your kind would like to endow the virtues of your own feelings into the reflection of your own personal god to believe in. You however have no clue to what is in the mind of god nor HIS tendencies. It's perfectly okay for you to establish these virtues because you like to believe in these abilities of your own created god. Why wouldn't one want HIS god to be whatever his imaginations fits? Goes to reason your dependence on faith once again. No proof. Just repeating an endless cycle of rehash to re-affirm and re-establish your own feeble views.

      You must be really hard up for love. Hard up for feelings... such an utter useless person. Get some self-confidence and learn to respect yourself and you'll see your mind will be free and illusions will disappear. Try saying "I will .."

      Try asserting "I could do it by myself .." You'll see the difference.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:04 pm |
    • Goddess rituals

      Atheist do not believe in Gods,
      Atheists worship godeasses!

      case in point see awkward going bonkers over butts, on its own butt ritual right now..

      September 11, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
    • Answer

      @Goddess rituals

      Your point is?
      Could you elaborate on what you actually know about atheists? Have you ever been an atheist?
      Your take is based on the article on the Goddess article a few days earlier.. so your point of insult is based on that. Congratulations on looking at one article and basing your insults on that. Do you have others – more insults?

      If you do then you must really hate atheists. Why do you hate when you are supposed to be the ones who are pure and tolerant. You are the model of pristine behavior are you not? I take it it's okay for you to go bashing atheists then?

      I'm okay with bashing religion and religious nuts. I give you permission to do likewise. Show us your hate. I know you have it. I however do not those of you who hide beneath your veneer of false love. I rather have your true hatred be shown on these blogs. To show your bigotry. I like to show your hate to yourself. It pleases me greatly. Please continue.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • Question

      Answer-What makes you think that you can insult others by calling them an 'utter useless person', it is quite ironic that you feel insulted by your own posting???

      Read your own posts/comments above.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:34 pm |
    • Answer


      As I've said, I know myself. I know this kind of forum will be hatred based. Always has been.
      I rather uncover the truth behind the veneer.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Answer


      Let me hear your spiel .. preach it out loud. Let me see what you are hiding.
      Are you going to label myself as the one who hates. I bet you will. While maintaining that you are pristine. Take the high ground for yourself? I know you'll make the use it.

      You aren't here to give proof. Nor state logic. You are on your defensive side to provide faith.
      I already have my assumptions of what to expect. It's fair use of our own analytical abilities that we are using. You just do not like my style of assault.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
    • Observer

      @Answer youv'e got to tone it down buddy.Look at your insults. If mummy/daddy didn't teach you as yet- treat others the way you want to be treated.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:58 pm |
    • Answer


      Yes it is insulting isn't it? You want to preach. It's your right.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:01 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      @Answer: I believe they are suggesting that you turn the other 'buttcheek' because they can't handle the truth.
      Mighty hypocrites these theist bunch!

      September 11, 2011 at 5:15 pm |
    • Goddess ritual

      kinda awkward,

      understand your penchant for slapping buttcheeks! enjoy the slappin in your temple!

      September 11, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      @Goddess ritual: For what it's worth I would rather be slapping buttcheeks than eating and drinking pseudo-representations of a dead human body and its blood. You're welcome anytime inside my temple. Newcomers must bring tight white booty shorts for their baptism – male or female! See you soon sweet cheeks.

      September 11, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Awkward "Can't handle the truth". Yeesh, you guys are sounding more and more like just another dreary sect with each passing post. And are you suggesting that Observer is on the "theist" side of the main debate in these parts? That's pretty funny.

      September 11, 2011 at 10:07 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      @John Richardson: Relax buddy, we're talking about buttcheeks here. And by the way I don't give a dam_n what side of the debate anybody is on. If you say something retarded I'll tell you exactly where on the retarded scale you measure. Good day.

      September 12, 2011 at 4:39 am |
  16. Bo

    The below email that I received form a freind proves nothing but does give room for thought. "To be an evoluntionist is to believe there is no god; to believe there is no god is to be an evolutionist. To have no god in your life is to be like an unsharpened pencil--There is no point."

    September 11, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Conversely, what is the "point" of god?

      Is not the point of life to live? I am not an atheist, but I believe in evolution. Where does that fit in your equation?

      There are more ways than one to sharpen a pencil.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:49 pm |
    • John Richardson

      The pencil is plenty sharp. There is a point in the lives of evolutionists. Your friend simply can't imagine the point. No one has to answer to your friend's lack of imagination.

      By the way, I'm an evolutionist and I don't consider myself an atheist, but a neo-animst. Indeed, few things can spur my neo-animist feelings more than the deep recognition that I really AM the kin of all of nature. No mere metaphor in play here. The dog sitting next to me and I really do have a common ancestor. Some living, breathing thing founded a line that led to both of us. Nothing could be more absurd than to say that this perspective has robbed my life of having any point. Quite the contrary.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • *frank*

      Your friend is a moron.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      Evolution is OK ... but .. it cannot ever account for the origin of (life, matter, etc.) and just dismisses origin as unimportant. So it fails to answer the most basic questions. Darwin did not and nobody who studied Darwin did. Darwin's only "theory" was that if two long beaked birds breed the babies will have long beaks (and sooner or later differentiate). The rest is conjecture. (entirely conjecture). Nobody actually know anything about origin. It is all a WAG.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:00 pm |
    • Skippy Peanutbutter

      I agree with frank. That's utterly idiotic. One would have to be incredibly shallow and ignorant to believe that any statement your "freind" made was true.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @RTC Evolutionary theory is considerably richer than THAT! But you are right that it does not per se address the ultimate origin of life, not because such an origin is deemed unimportant, but simply because that is a separate subject matter. You may was well say particle physics considers multicellular life unimportant because physics doesn't address the question of multicellular life life. No, it simply says NOTHING about multicellular life because it has nothing about the topic to say!

      September 11, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      @Bo: Your post is very much like an unsharpened pencil.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:18 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      That is why Joseph Campbell (and atheist himself) said (correctly) that science is a myth. (a metaphor) Because today's irrevocable fact is overturned tomorrow (like chaos physics to Newtonian physics) and the old truth was only a mistaken belief. And so it is ALL .merely belief. (what your mind concocts to explain it). You mind glosses over the unexplainable (or it predicates a pervasive myth, i.e., metaphor) Once yo0u get comfortable with that you understand yourself better and you can accept metaphor as YOUR reality .. because you have no reality.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
    • John Richardson

      It's at least a little misleading to label Campbell an atheist. And it's quite misleading to label science a myth in the same way that the Greek myths, Norse myths, Christianity, etc are myths. Science EXPECTS to know more next year than we know today and even more so in 10 years and a whole lot more in 100. But it IS true that the changes science undergoes from year to year, decade to decade, century to century are not mere acc-umulations of more and more facts. That's why I don't get the same buzz some get when, eg, people talk about the latest, greatest interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation that spawned some mystical schools of thought on the matter about the universe being created by specifically human consciousness was all the rage re The Meaning of It All recently enough to annoy me in my grad school days is now often mocked by the newer latest, greatest Meanings of It All. Frontier science is exciting, but maybe a little too exciting at times. It spawns much false certainty about the Ultimate Answers to the Big Questions that will prove to be just more dust in the wind in fairly short order. But science manages to do this without religious wars or pogroms and is to be appreciated for that very reason.

      As far as evolutionary science goes, the much cited Richard Dawkins's selfish gene hypothesis always struck me and continues to strike me as at least 75% bad metaphor, empirical tunnel vision and simply bunk. But the remaining 25% has improved understanding significantly and will have a lasting impact, even if it per se ends up being no evolutionary scientist's guiding insight, as I fully expect will be the case in the coming years.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • Answer


      There are people who are scientists who came from religious backgrounds that disprove your pointless quote.
      Look up the Youtube video for yourself of Ken Miller on Human Evolution. The person in question is from your point of view and he studies evolution – the genome. Review it. Realize what he himself has stated about his background. Realize what he is showing in the presentation.

      This sole small clip proves your worthless point about your evolutionist. If you weren't so stuck in with your fairy tales and always only wanting to find links on fairy tales you may be a worthy human. As such you are not. Sheep.

      September 11, 2011 at 4:40 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The only thought I get is that if religion is the only thing that gives your life meaning, you are one sad, lonely individual.

      September 11, 2011 at 10:15 pm |
  17. David Johnson

    @John Richardson

    When I was young, Vietnam with its body bags and enemy body counts was raging. The draft fueled the protests for this war.

    And so, the "Hippie" movement was born! We hated the bomb and killing and the draft. Jesus was a god of peace and not of war. He cared for the poor and expected the rich to not be greedy. We lost that somewhere. Jesus became bellicose and short tempered with the needy among us. Jesus embraced personal responsibility, giving absolution to the the haves for not helping the have nots.

    I think I long for a peace sign...


    September 11, 2011 at 2:11 pm |
    • John Richardson

      My brief involvement with Evangelical Christianity in my teen years in the early 70s was with a youth group called Young Life and there was a notable pro-peace, anti-war tilt to this group. I ended up rejecting the theology, but I continue to respect a lot of the rest of the political philosophy of these more "Jesus Freak" type Christians. Looking around at the bellicose rightwing Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who came to the fore in the 80s and who have been noisily on the scene ever since, it's hard to believe that the same religion that spawned the Jesus Freaks spawned this militaristic, hate-spewing thugs.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:28 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I've gotta say, there is nothing wrong with personal responsibility. If more people would make an effort to take care of themselves, it would be a lot easier to spot those who really need that help.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:36 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I forgot to mention that I absolutely agree about closing the tax loopholes and getting our troops out of the middle east as soon as is sanely possible.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:37 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @tallulah I'm with you on personal responsibility, though I do note that, like so many things, the term can be used as code word for other, less acceptable things. People have to take responsibility and I've seen so many people act so irresponsibly at times, eg having kids when that they couldn't afford and weren't even mentally stable enough to raise, get depressed by their lot in life after making a whole series of bad decisions and then seeking solace in drugs and alcohol, etc, that the fiscal conservation aspect of my more or less libertarian politics have often kinda sneered as the social liberal aspect of me just feels burned by how many people, given an opportunity, spurn it and just keep making themselves more and more helpless. But there are some severe iniquities of opportunity in life and sometimes people get their first real opportunity only somewhere in adulthood after decades of adopting behavioral survival strategies that tend to undercut their ability to make productive use of their belated opportunities. So, as disillusioned as I myself so often feel, I still cringe when people haughtily declare people in dire straits as irresponsible and therefore supposedly deserving of their fate. I don't know what the answer is, but coddling bad choices AND sneering at people as irresponsible when they simply weren't raised to be responsible are for two non-answers.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:48 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      The hippies hated being eligible to be drafted so they acted like they hated war but hated us who were drafted and ran to Canada so we could go in their place. Then they spit on us when we came back. They hippies were commie phonies .. and themselves terrorists (in the name of pace) .. but most ion the name of resisting a draft the rest of us had to clout to resist

      September 11, 2011 at 2:52 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      Rich liberals from Ivy League start wars because they never have to fight them. We working class (white-black-hispanic) have to fight them. Then the liberals (like Kerry) claim they were heros, give themselves medals, run for office and start more wars.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @RTC I wish I could say that that is an unusually shallow view of the 60s/70s, but it is a sadly common misunderstanding. But you are right about one thing. The draft fueled anti-war fever. Yes, much of that was self-interest. But it was legitimate self- interest. Few things are as outrageous a violation of individual liberty than drafting someone to fight in a war that the person doesn't believe in. The draft was wrong and ending is was a commendable achievement of those that opposed it.

      For the record, I was just a shade too young to be caught up in all that. I did register for the draft, but it was suspended before it could affect me.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:00 pm |
    • Real Deal


      The Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and many other Christian pacifist groups did not serve in the war(s) either.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:01 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      Those are all privileged elitists who take privilege (for themselves) and rely upon others to go in their place (and have no moral qualms about it). The rest of us (17 to 18 year old kids) had no congressman on our side, no clout, no paid escape, no deferment, no special friend in Washington to pull strings - so we got taken. The fist words they said was God owns your soul and I own you (and they did own you). If you left they hunted you down and drug you back. There was no lawyer Kuntsler to speak for you .. not even a P.Def. There were ten general orders. You learned to do what you were told and for many (too many) life ended at 17 or 18 while the rest of the smug elitist who brag now cowered in Canada. NOBODY wants to be shot at and NOBODY wants to be owned. NOBODY was there for adventure vacation. Jane Fonda and her kind spit on us; betrayed us, put a shiv in our back. All of her ilk .. her media kin.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:14 pm |
    • John Richardson

      RTC, the unfairness you cite is precisely why a system that included a draft but also deferments for some and special favors, etc, etc was CALLED unfair by those who opposed it and ENDED in large part because of those protests, but also because it frankly produced a military that wasn't exactly what you want in a military, You don't seem to understand who your friends were back then.

      September 11, 2011 at 3:20 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      I understand that the elitists let a half million go in their place and 50,000 be killed in their place. That the whole thing started because JFK and McNamara had to save face after they botched they Bay of Pigs and that LBJ did not have the courage to say the war is a mistake (so they blamed it on Nixon). I understand that l"liberating Kuwait" was completely unnecessary and that the war in Iraq was unnecessary (and yet the power elite send powerless boys to do it for them). I understand that right NOW there is no OBJECTIVE in Afghanistan and there never was (and now OBL is supposedly gone). And still the White House wants them to fight on for nothing. (saying "trust me I am from the government")... and I understand that a big majority voted for that official and still want more of him. (he was going to end the wars and close Gitmo, and end the Dept. of HS etc.)

      September 11, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      ... and THEY condemn the Tea Party. How duplicitous. One "truth" for them and another "truth" for every one else. The teleprompter truth. The aloof truth. Even for taxes and medical care - THEY are not part of the tax equation and their health care is SPECIAL. (always one truth for the hoy paloy and one truth for thm

      September 11, 2011 at 3:33 pm |
    • David Johnson


      I will not get into a debate over this. I save my debating for my atheistic ways. But, most of the protesters of the Vietnam war were not driven solely by the draft. Protesters did not like the war. Protesters did not hate the Vietnamese. Protesters believed it was wrong to use napalm on children.


      September 11, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      @ D Johnson ... so you think all thopse 17 year old boys bought plane tickets to Vietnam so they could napalm on children while all of you draft avoiders stood back (strictly out of morals) and let them go because they way you figured it they wanted to go right? And they wanted to be shot at and forced to crawl in tunnels and be bitten by mosquitoes and exposed to agent orange ... isn't that what most 17 year old want? Except for you elitists .. you alone are virtuous hiding in Canada (smoking pot and cussing) while the rest of us pay the price of your freedoms and privileges. And then you come back and still expect the rest of us to pay for your education, your mortgage, your mistakes, your infrastructure, your privileges .. we owe it to you right? You are special and we are stepping stone (is that your virtue? )

      September 11, 2011 at 4:40 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Right Turn Clyde

      You said: "Except for you elitists .. you alone are virtuous hiding in Canada (smoking pot and cussing) while the rest of us pay the price of your freedoms and privileges. And then you come back and still expect the rest of us to pay for your education, your mortgage, your mistakes, your infrastructure, your privileges .. we owe it to you right? You are special and we are stepping stone (is that your virtue? )"

      Actually, I was in high school until 1971. Didn't go to Canada until I was in my 30's. Shortly after graduation, a lottery was commenced. If your number was high, you would not be drafted. My number was like 200 and something. I was lucky. My parents paid for my education. Not taxpayers. I paid for my mortgage. My freedoms? Hmm... Vietnam was never a threat to the freedoms of the U.S. Fifty-Eight thousand Americans were lost (Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993). For what? The domino theory was proved wrong.

      "Napalm Sticks to Kids" is a call and response running cadence supposedly, occasionally used in the U.S. military. (A google moment). Remember the photo taken in Trang Bang by AP photographer Nick Ut showing a young girl running naked on a road after being severely burned on her back by a South Vietnamese napalm attack? Again I ask, for what?


      September 11, 2011 at 5:26 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @RTC No one thinks that the 17yos were buying plane tickets to Vietnam to use napalm. The people behind the policies were in Washington DC. Everyone knew that. Some chowderheads did treat Vietnam vets terribly, which is regrettable. But the ire was directed at the very power elite you are criticizing. The Chicago riots during the DNC in 1968 should make it clear that the protestors knew exactly who was in charge and therefore bore the responsibility.

      September 11, 2011 at 10:13 pm |
  18. myweightinwords

    Our spending is way out of control and we have people losing their homes and going to bed hungry. It really is time we do something to balance it out.

    September 11, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • David Johnson

      Let's do something "gutsy", like a progressive tax and closing corporate loopholes. And getting out of the Middle East.


      September 11, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @David, I agree. We need to re-evaluate who and how we tax. We need to cut spending on ridiculous things. We need to bring our troops home and resolve to not throw bodies and dollars after every conflict. We need to mind our own business and get our own house in order.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
    • John Richardson

      And end the cap on income taxable for social security! That has got to be the most egregiously regressive tax policy we have!

      September 11, 2011 at 3:02 pm |
  19. David Johnson

    As far as nuclear weapons, it is true that the United States and Russia have more than enough, to destroy the world several times over. Fortunately, most wars will not be of this type. Most will probably be like Vietnam, and the ones in the Middle East. Also, it isn't always the payload that matters. Often it is the delivery system. There is more to it, than just making bombs.

    We can raise taxes on the rich and end the 3 wars we are fighting in the Middle East. This would go a long way toward balancing the budget.

    Many Evangelicals believe in a last battle between good and evil. They want the Mosque of Omar to be torn down and the Jewish temple to be rebuilt on this spot, to enable Jesus' return.

    This is really dangerous. What if we give a war, and Jesus doesn't come back? Something to think about.


    September 11, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Matthew 24:1-2

      1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

      2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


      September 11, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • SecularTruther

      The delusionsof believers couldn't mentally fathom the idea that Jesus won't come back.

      September 11, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


      September 11, 2011 at 2:28 pm |
    • David Johnson


      You said: "Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

      Hmm... Jesus may not have known the day or the hour, but He did predict a 1st Century return.

      A number of New Testament passages indicate that Christ was supposed to return before his generation had died. This would have been sometime in the first century AD.
      First, there is the testimony of Jesus himself, who explicitly stated that some of his disciples would not die until Jesus inst_ituted the Kingdom, and that his generation would not pass away until all his prophecies of the end of the world had been fulfilled.
      Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

      Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

      Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      Jesus' speech in 24 and 25 was given, when He was alone with His disciples.

      Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
      In this discourse, Jesus makes a number of assertions about the fate of his disciples. One of the signs of the end would be the persecution of his disciples.

      Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

      While tradition records that the disciples were persecuted and martyred, this was not followed by the return of Christ, as he promised.

      The Apostle Paul, too, seemed to think that Christ would return for his generation.

      I Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      Note that Paul twice uses the phrase '...we which are alive and remain...'.

      This seems to preclude the theory that Paul was speaking of some far future generation. Paul made a similar assertion in First Corinthians.

      I Corinthians 15:51,52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      Note that Paul said that '...we shall not all sleep...'. In other words, he expected that at least some of his generation would not see death. Again, there is nothing in the text to indicate the Paul was speaking about some far future generation.

      Paul reiterated his belief in a soon return of Christ in the Book of Romans.

      Romans 13:11-12 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

      The other New Testament writers had similar thoughts about the iminence of Christ's return.

      James 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

      I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

      I Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

      The Apocalyptic Book of Revelations repeatedly has Christ saying that he would return soon.
      Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly....

      By no stretch of the imagination can 2,000 years be considered 'quickly' LOL

      Jesus was wrong. Jesus has been really busy being really dead, for the last 2,000 years.


      September 11, 2011 at 4:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Isn't it interesting that HS seems to be able to find any Bible verse that supports her hatred of others, yet she has been unable to find a post she claims I wrote? I wonder why that is.

      September 11, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
  20. John Richardson

    It's always good to hear of a Christian who doesn't want to bomb the world into submission.

    September 11, 2011 at 1:46 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      2 Corinthians 10

      10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base * among you, but being absent am bold toward you:

      10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

      10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

      10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

      10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

      10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

      10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

      10:8 For * though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

      10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.

      10:10 For his letters *, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

      10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.

      10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

      10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

      10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

      10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly *,

      10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

      10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

      10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.


      September 11, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Anyone else notice that the only thing HS uses her Bible for is as a billy club to beat up those she hates or of whom she disapproves?

      September 11, 2011 at 6:53 pm |
    • Answer


      The first thing in converting someone is to put that person you want to convert into defending him/herself.
      It's common psychology. Or rather not too common if you do not understand how people react to emotions.

      The bible if used correctly is all emotion based. Fear, greed, hate .. etc. Once you put your target on the target you can cast doubt into their thoughts that will sway their own minds to convince themselves to accept religious. If you have to defend yourself you will never get to the point of asking questions you find questionable. This is tested logic.

      You'll find most of the heavy abusers of religion seek to dominate to place themselves at a better advantage. Money, power .. social positions and status mainly.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:01 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Answer, you'll have to explain your post. It makes no sense to me.

      September 11, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.