More than 1,000 turn out for multifaith 9/11 event
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson addressed a crowd at the 9/11 Unity Walk.
September 12th, 2011
10:44 AM ET

More than 1,000 turn out for multifaith 9/11 event

By Mary Grace Lucas, CNN

Washington (CNN) - More than 1,000 people of various faiths gathered Sunday for a unique religious "open house" event as a way to commemorate 9/11 and to get to know each other's faiths.

The 9/11 Unity Walk, now in its seventh year, drew diverse participants from across the United States to engage with each other at 13 different houses of worship along Washington's Embassy Row.

The walk began with a symbolic Muslim call to prayer from the podium in the Washington Hebrew Congregation temple and included one of America's most prominent Muslims, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson, as a featured speaker. An American-born Muslim, Yusuf helped co-found the Zaytuna College in Berkeley, California, and is a leader in the Muslim intellectual community.

Speaking to CNN before the event, Yusuf talked of lessons learned in the decade since September 11, 2001.

Read the full story here.
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 9/11

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soundoff (413 Responses)
  1. Check

    Fundamentalists are all alike only only their beliefs are valid and that everyone who disagrees is insane or evil.

    Doesn't matter if it's Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or even Atheist.

    Any of you who say you should "eradicate all faiths but ours' would not realize that people would find other things to kill each other over. That's what people do.

    September 17, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
  2. juan carr

    when we look at the uniteds states of america and what stands for freedom we have a flag,and when we look at washington dc we have monuments of men and statements carved in stone of the ones that stood or believed in this freedom and that it was good enough for all men no matter what religion or race, And whats really wild or interesting is how these men came up with such a notion of freedom and liberty for all, it was from the message of the cross, a freedom or the pardon of ALL pardons to all who were willing to recieve it. whether we realize it or not this is what it was a derivitive of, And the rest is history and for those who like hands on kind of hit you up side the head kind of reality, in order for them to come to see the light or the truth, We are ALL seekers or partakers in this thing called old glory or justice for all. We all are under the law physicly anyway, We all fall under the so called innocent untill proven guilty. now in order to fully appreciate the benifets of the law one must look at themself as guilty untill proven innocent, Remember the world speaks for its self in history, hatred and anger is and has been in the heart of every man,and it didnt have to religion or race, for we have our own broken families to remind us of this all around this globe, right? So what happened is we started relieing on our selfs more and more as time when on, hence the on set of pride which feeds this curse or blindness to our own self rightousness, we find our hearts getting so stubborn that we dont need anyone let alone some guy who died on a cross that said who ever would just trust him who ever could see that thier life as THEY know it does not show promise, that thier faith in Him would be enough, to see them through, that as long as they would hang in there the best they could with all thier heart and with all thier strength that they would see He was telling the truth. well in a perfect world hey? So history does happen to have a way of repeating it self but it doesnt have to, at least in each one of our lives as we know it, is life still going to suck absoultly, as long as death is still our enemy as it is a legitemate threat but remember thats all it is,, becuase in the mean time remember the promise He promises never to leave us nor forsake us, that He will show us the way the truth and the LIFE, which is the wisdom of God and this grace is sufficent, heres an analogy while everybody and there brother is clawing thier way to the top I will be busy just being satisfied with just enough for today that my mind is free of preoccupation, that I cant be a perfect help when the lord shows me theres someone in need, this has been and will always be a work in progress guys but I believe that if hope faith and peace and joy ment that much to God that He sent His Son to die that I could have a 100% chance at recieving it by Faith alone Im taking it and I to am willing to die to my flesh or my self rightous ways that others may recieve this hope through me, personaly just being able to look out at the world unjudgementally each day is the most difficult thing in my life but it has not been impossible everytime this starts to creep up on me all i have to do is look at my self 1st and then compare my self to the guy who was ridiculed and humiliated and torcherd for me the same type of person who went to church wore a cross on my neck while I was sleeping around on my wife and who though I was a good Dad to my kids as I drank and drove, spoke bad langauge to my parents as a grown man did drugs, gave money to people in need to the church helped out homeless people, and the whole time lieing my way through life telling myself this world is one messed up place pointing at people left and right and blaming everyone but myself and even when I did that I couldnt even do it right. Well sorry for rambling on I hope this could bring some light to this whole caaous delema or onslaught of the batterings of the minds that were all going through, rid your guilt today and be made new.be made able to see and be a part of the solution and not the problem, starting with your own loved ones, God Bless.

    September 15, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • Muneef

      Juan Carr.
      Well said and any man of us must have had to pass all this mess in his life before he repents and try to correct his way by doing what ever seemed right as a human being lending hand to the needy and helpless...
      But do you know who is man's worst enemy? Mankind worst enemy are "The Satan,The Poverty, His Arrogance and Pride".
      Lady Liberty was a Franchise lady and the law of all guilty until proven innocent is a French law...! any way GOD Bless you for your responsible words...

      September 15, 2011 at 9:02 pm |
  3. Muneef

    I still say corruptors on this planet are although called Businessmen but they are as equal as terrorists and threatening the lives of more people or life on earth even more than terrorists...but how come we have not seen those repent and oppologise ?

    Our oceans are being decimated – deep-sea trawlers are clear-cutting our ocean floors leaving vast wastelands. A crucial UN fisheries meeting is happening in 48 hours – and it could be the turning point in the fight against senseless ocean destruction, but only if enough of us speak out now. Sign and forward to everyone: 

    To members of the UN General Assembly:
    As concerned global citizens, we call on you immediately to implement and enforce your obligations to the UN resolutions on fishing and work to ban the destructive practice of deep-sea bottom-fishing. We urge you to usher in a new era of accountability and commitment to our injured oceans by steadfastly holding other nations to their promises to protect oceans and curb devastation.

    Strange though nothing mentioned about off shore drilling and the pollutions that result to ocean lives deaths and extinctions and much as those fishermen!!?

    September 14, 2011 at 9:27 pm |
    • Reality

      Then there is this:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,483 and 925 in non combat roles. 99,901 – 109,143 Iraqi civilians killed as of 3/3/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,141 killed in action, 242 killed in non-combat situations as of 03/03/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      September 15, 2011 at 7:39 am |
  4. Dr.K.

    Yes, let's bring people of various faiths together to celebrate that wonderful thing that irrational faith brought us: the September 11 attacks.

    Pay not attention to that 800lb gorilla in the corner clutching his holy book in one hand and his righteous certainty in the other.

    September 13, 2011 at 11:19 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”Yes, let's bring people of various faiths together to celebrate that wonderful thing that irrational faith brought us: the September 11 attacks.”

      Ok, we will bring the Faiths together to celebrate Tolerance and hopes for Peace. September 11th showed that when the extremist minority speak the rest of us will just have to continue to speak louder. 🙂

      September 14, 2011 at 1:47 am |
    • Free

      Usually, people just speak out against other religion's extremist minorities and fail to address their own, which is the real problem. Change has to come from within, so a call for courage seems appropriate, right?

      September 14, 2011 at 8:12 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”Change has to come from within, so a call for courage seems appropriate, right?”

      Amen to that Free 🙂 I know that we have Faithful, such as the Rev Terry Jones that hope to find traction in the Faithful by burning Korans and such. We need, and think in many ways we have succeeded in confronting such people. At the same I try to keep my own self “in check” because hatred and fear are always a step away.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:00 pm |
    • chad

      One faith in particular brought you 9/11.. not "all" faiths

      September 14, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
    • Free

      But which faith in particular brought us the Inquisition, the Pogroms, and the witch burnings, just to name a few? Certainly not "all" faiths, right? Why do you isolate Islam without accounting for your own religion's history?

      September 15, 2011 at 2:12 pm |
    • Free

      Mark from Middle River
      But why the need to comfort such people? Is it like banning together to hush up the misdeeds of the black sheep in order to protect the family name? Or do people find the black sheep too threatening to challenge? I know from experience that many ultra-conservatives are not above dismissing moderates as even being actual Christians at all, spitting hellfire upon them as easily they do complete nonbelievers. Our friend fred just this day called moderate Christians the 'tares' mentioned in Matthew 13, which I think is completely outrageous. Are a lot of people just afraid of being accused of not being faithful enough? Is there a kinda fascist compulsion to expose those not seen as loyal, or is it more of a bully tactic aimed at pushing meeker believers into joining, or at least not criticizing, the more extremist minority?

      September 15, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • chad

      @Free: "But which faith in particular brought us the Inquisition, the Pogroms, and the witch burnings, just to name a few? Certainly not "all" faiths, right? Why do you isolate Islam without accounting for your own religion's history?"

      Inquisitions: Agreed, horrific stuff, from 12th century up to 18th century perpetrated by Christians.
      Pogroms: predominately against Jews, NOT for Christian reasons, nor by people making that claim. You cant lay that at the foot of Christians
      Witch burnings: ok, sure. terrible stuff in the 15th/16th century

      No one is attempting to dodge responsibility for the Inquisition or Witch burnings. At the same time, what Atheists are clearly trying to do, is use militant extremist Islam actions TODAY, combined with references to Christian atrocities hundreds of years ago, to push an atheist agenda.
      That's nonsense.

      Here's an exercise for you, perform two google searches and compare results:
      "Christian relief agencies" thousands
      "Islamic relief agencies" >50

      October 3, 2011 at 9:01 am |
  5. herbert juarez

    Welcome to the fold chaim and you brought a guest!Guest agrees we are all agreed!God bless us everyone!

    September 13, 2011 at 9:02 pm |
  6. chad

    Interesting that none of the lessons he learned in the past 10 years had to do with the necessity of de-radicalizing extremest muslims such that they no longer wanted to destroy the west and annihilate Israel.

    September 13, 2011 at 5:27 pm |
  7. rsm

    Faith is the reason the attacks happened in the first place. Faith is the cause of most war. Faith is the cause of death. Faith is evil in a rational world. Demand evidence for outrageous claims or you may be fooled into giving up your life for naught. Or worse still, taking the lives of others for naught.

    Stop the madness. Stop faith. Stop believing and think. It's Important.

    Demand evidence. Your life depends on it.

    September 13, 2011 at 10:52 am |
    • chad

      Why do so many folks leap upon attacks by Islamic extremists as an opportunity to condemn all religions?

      Yes, every religion has in it's past at some point committed atrocities, so have atheists.

      If you want to solve the problem of Islamic extremist terrorism, we need to solve that problem.. not the crusades..

      September 13, 2011 at 5:31 pm |
    • juan carr

      people isnt the evidence all around us? I excepted the fact 7 years ago that I needed forgiveness for everything in my life that I could not explain, and that it seemed as though there was no end to it, and it turned out to be my own selfishness, is it a work in progress ab-SOUL-tly, one truly doesnt have anything to complain about that compares to taking a faith sobering look at themselves in order that they both can stop lieing to themselves and the ones they love. This whole religion thing is pathedic its all a big smoke screen even those that claim to know what they are taking about by way of what ever book they are reading cant even take the credit for it, we are all selfish by nature period and if you choose to put your faith where your heart is and not where your mouth is, and compare your self to the one who made the word freedom and liberty possible to be on the side of the liberty bell, We stand guilty as all being slaves, slaves of our own self rightousness, and here we are supposed Christians pointing and blameing to our hearts content. We as individuals are our worst enemy,the bible says that its our flesh that wars against the word or the truth and were worried and or scared of muslims and gay marraige and the weather, we all die with or with out their help, Our flesh or sin is our enemy this and this alone is what keeps us from knowing life, the rest is all just another day choosing to go it alone and keep getting lied too, the whole earth is full of self rightous prideful scared hypercrites theives and liars, and by putting all your faith in the one that died to save you from yourself is the only way to see your way through this mess and on into eternity, by examining yourself daily not your neighbor one day at a time that maybe just maybe somebody might see something good in you something you cant take any credit for because its comes by faith through grace in that no man can boast, and that kinda stuff makes more freinds then enemies and more hope than fear, take care guys

      September 15, 2011 at 12:59 am |
  8. ColoredMountains

    Multi-faith events are meaningless. Thank God so few gathered. The Hebrew congregations should stop the useless humanistic notions and accept Jesus as their only Messiah as the God of Abraham intended. Jews, look back your own history. When were you saved or rescued or made prosperous by using the human-oriented craftiness or inclusiveness? You did exactly what your God abhors. Are you reading your Jewish Bible at all? You must depend on the God of Truth and trust the Savior Jesus alone, no one else.

    September 13, 2011 at 10:01 am |
    • Free

      I would bet that you would find it very scary indeed if these moderates did manage to ban together and speak out against those extremists who have hijacked, and tarnished the names of "Christian" and "Muslim", right?

      September 13, 2011 at 10:31 am |
    • ColoredMountains

      @Free-, the liberal moderates never band together as moderates. They usually form themselves to be a tyrannical band, oppressing or victimizing the minority who speaks sanity. A pattern in human societies and nations.

      September 13, 2011 at 10:36 am |
    • Free

      It's silly to imply that the majority of Christians in the US are mobilized ultra-conservatives. The actual majority are moderates. The ultra-conservatives are just louder than the rest.

      Now, as to the rest of your post, can you kindly give any examples from history where a meek, unpoliticaly active minority has used it's total lack of power to push a strong, politicaly active majority around?

      September 13, 2011 at 11:26 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Colored Mountains – While I can understand your belief that they should accept Jesus as their Savior, I can not grasp the “meaningless” part. If people who normally are at each others throats or just totally avoiding any acknowledgement of each other, decide to come together in the name of tolerance and remembrance of those who died in this national tragedy.... you feel that is the definition of “meaningless” ? Are you serious?

      I mentioned before it is amazing the two groups who opposed to such a gathering. It is the rabid Athiest and the rabid Faithful. The fear is amazing. Can you come to such a gathering without the draw to convert everyone to your way of thinking?

      Colored Mountains. Question, since this is interfaith gathering for peace and tolerance, can you just hold on to Matthew 5:9 and move forward with others who hold a different relationship with God or Gods?


      September 14, 2011 at 2:02 am |
  9. Mark from Middle River

    >>>”Hope for world peace is just talk, like prayer. Talk, as they say, is cheap. Less talk and more action, I say!”

    Free – Well, if every soul on this planet had a united vision of what World Peace would be, then action would be instantaneous and settled many ions ago. We are all a world society of folks who desire to find world peace often on the backs of others. Some politicians, news media, educators, civic leaders and clergy are quick to point out who “they” feel are the roadblock to World Peace but fail to see the “man and woman in the mirror”. Its hard, I still suffer it myself, I wake up each morning and normally hit FoxNews, CNN, BBC and sometimes Aljazerra. By the time I brush my teeth I am often fixed on someone in the world messing things up. 🙂

    A few months ago a speaker on NPR or C-SPAN declared that because all of us wanting large screen TVs or similar major electronics there were places in the third world countries where villages were wiping out other villages to control the mining of the precious metals needed for our devices. Years ago it was Blood Diamonds fueling terrorist.

    It is like, as much as you fight this battle or that , there seems to always be someone or some group declaring that you are evil and heartless for some aspect of your life.

    If you say remove all the people of Faith, then yes you get the ones marching against Gays and Lesbians , but at the same time you get folks that run outreach programs and help in the community, often run by Gays and Lesbians.

    If you say remove all the Atheist, then yes you lose ones like my buddies Kimsland and Colin, but you also lose ones like John Richardson and on rare occasions Hot Air Ace.

    ...and even Reality has grown on me …. I guess he is somewhere in the limbo of Faith... doesn't care for Muslims but we will keep working on it once he sets aside the Muslim body counts in human written records. 🙂

    Someone said that because I believed that the Interfaith event was a good thing than me and him or her could not be on the “same page”. That is the root of such issues and why we will get Cold Fusion before achieve World Peace. If we have folks demanding in a Bin Laden …. and shamefully my hero GW Bush … that its “same page” or nothing... you are with us or against us atti'tude then World Peace will always be that which is hoped for but unable to fully take root in our hearts.


    September 13, 2011 at 4:36 am |
    • Chaim

      That guy in the mirror. When is he going to quit calling people "kid"? When is he going to stop assuming everyone's out to get him? When is he going to learn that most people don't give a sh-t what he looks like but only what crap he actually does?
      When is that man in the mirror going to figure out he's been brainwashed into thinking it's all about race and extremism?
      Mark, I really wish you would have a change of heart about some things. Or at least examine your automatic responses to other people and figure out why they are one particular way. Do something besides the same crap for once. Geez.

      September 13, 2011 at 6:05 am |
    • Free

      Mark from Middle River
      I, like a great many atheists I suspect, have no problems with the vast majority of believers. The ones who don't press their beliefs upon the rest of us, that is. The ones who would never picket funerals, clinics, or against civil rights. The ones who practice tolerance towards other faith positions and are willing to let people who aren't hurting anyone just live as they may.

      It seems, however, that we only ever hear from these moderates during these ecu.menical photo opts, where they all smile for the camera just to let us all know that they really do still exist, but is it too much to expect them to actually DO something like take up the fight against religious extremism, all religious extremism, and not just the rival forms?

      Ah well, maybe it's all working out for the best anyway. Maybe their silence is an indication that the number of zealots is dwindling on the vine, and the day will come soon when we atheists can stop arguing against the political, and sometimes violent, application of superst.itious beliefs. That would be a good day, indeed! 🙂

      September 13, 2011 at 10:28 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi Chaim- Good response but while my posts look automatic it is because often there are those on both sides, that sound the exact same with their comments. Which admit makes my post look automatic. The other day I responded to another's post with a simple... “why” 🙂 Let us look at rsm's post and see how it is just a carbon copy of many militant Atheist post:

      “Faith is the reason the attacks happened in the first place. Faith is the cause of most war. Faith is the cause of death. Faith is evil in a rational world. “

      Now, we have all seen this generic type of post before. Many times, I believe post such as this are posted just to incite people to start a flame war post. It often feels like it is a dormitory game that is being played, with people seeing who can get the most responses to their post for the win. Some are honest and respectful post from Atheist that do want a honest dialogue. Those I feel honored to read and respond to.

      Then there are those that do concern me enough to put fingers to keys or to tell my colleagues that I will catch up with them later while I type out responses on my PDA. When I first started on the Belief Blog, last year, I was using a 300mhz Compaq laptop to type these responses while at work. God blessed me with this PDA, but I still have the 300 in my truck 🙂 ...just in case 🙂

      Those ones that concern me are the ones that sound more hostile and that I feel could push some deranged person to physical action. The types of post that we hear, on CNN and FoxNews after the shootings or detonations. The post that they show clips and someone says “they should have seen the signs”.

      These post of mine are automatic in only that. Defuse, and build dialogue. I try not to have a post go into a screaming back and forth match. Mostly, I just want to point out how similar in good ways and bad ways, people of Faith and Atheist, are not that far apart in dialogue. Two moderates, one Atheist and one Faithful, can exchange post and their words will often mirror each other.

      Then you take two radical posters, one Atheist and one Faithful and their words, to me, often sound the same. The, “you must be on my side or there can be no peace and yelling and insults shall be our only dialogue” ...types of post. Those post serve no good and I fear will never reach the peace and tolerance that so many I believe in society wants.

      Look many of the posts Chaim for a article of a group of different Faiths coming together for the hopes of “Peace and Tolerance”. Chaim look at who is having, on both articles, a serious issue with such. It is once again the Radical Christians and the Radical Atheist.

      The first feels that it harms their religion because it acknowledges other Faiths and the second believes that it a gathering of evil forces. Why I post as I do is because of articles just like this. I just can not grasp that someone would look at a call for Tolerance as a bad thing. Check out ColoredMountains' post today.

      “Multi-faith events are meaningless. Thank God so few gathered. “

      Now, because I have to prep for work and typing this response I hope to challenge Colored Mountains later tonight. I just wanted you to know that your statement:

      >>>“when is he going to stop assuming everyone's out to get him?”

      Assumption is the mother of all F'ups but I will assume that you mean me and not the Late Micheal Jackson. 🙂 I do not think that folks are out to get me.... but at the same time we should all be mindful that words, heated emotions and the basic dehumanization, on both sides, of each other makes it just that more easy to repeat the evils of history.

      If we in the middle who want Tolerance and coexistence, do not stand against the radicals elements on all sides and acknowledge that there is such devisions on the other side also,... then it will be us.... it is always us in the middle, who suffer and die the most.

      Thanks for the post.


      September 13, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
  10. Colin

    The non-thinking supplicating themselves to the non-existent at the direction of the non-denominational.

    September 13, 2011 at 12:22 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Sally sells seashells by the seashore..... now say yours five times fast 😀

      September 13, 2011 at 4:05 am |
  11. John Richardson

    I used to think it sad that so many theists misunderstand secularism. Still do. But I'm getting really discouraged seeing how many atheists don't understand it either.

    September 12, 2011 at 9:27 pm |
    • Sue

      By 'understand' you mean see secularism in your odd little way, right? That would take a leap of faith even greater than the believers can put forward, so why would you expect skeptics to?

      September 12, 2011 at 11:21 pm |
    • Chaim

      There is more than one type of secularism. Why don't you explain it to us and we'll try to remember for next time, okay?

      September 12, 2011 at 11:29 pm |
    • John Richardson

      I'm talking about secularism in the simple, straight-forward sense of keeping religion out of government and out of politics altogether, to the extent that is possible. The sort of secularism that recognizes both freedom of religion and freedom from religion. You know, the sort of secularism that has traditionally been known as, well, secularism. What I am specifically denouncing is the stated aim of several atheists here to eradicate religion. I'm perfectly fine with advocating for one's own worldview and arguing against others and I of course do it myself all the time. But some atheists seem to want to be just one more warring sect, which is the very opposite of what this world needs.

      September 13, 2011 at 4:19 am |
    • LoneZero

      @John Richardson

      I agree with you, secularism is what makes the US so great, The US is a melting pot of ideas, races, religions (or lack of), cultures, and it's with that makes us the best. Keeping religion out of government and politics and recognizing both freedom of religion and freedom from religion helps ensure that.

      I am Atheist and though I don't agree or like most religions, I don't want to eradicate religion all together either, believing in secularism and equal rights for all, it's our right to believe in a faith or not too. Those just out to destroy either religion or Atheism just divides us, we can't move forward, it makes us intolerant to others and in some cases ensures bigotry.

      September 13, 2011 at 4:51 am |
    • Chaim

      Thanks for responding. I wasn't sure if you were still moving around. You'll have to add "secular" to your name-tag now, and "semi-animate" sounds like a good addition as well. 😀
      Anyway, to your post.............
      "to the extent that is possible."
      Now that's an interesting bit right there. While some might advocate the eradication of religion, as should any rational person who seeks to minimize any irrational influences in society, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are advocating accomplishing this goal through unworkable or non-viable means. It just means they want religion to be gone. That's secularism according to your definition.
      To add the "freedom of religion" part to secularism would be to give it an "American" label. American secularism would include the Constltution as a framework of supreme law that includes the express banning of religion from the governing bodies as regards the functioning of those bodies. American secularism would only include freedom of religion until we could fix that little problem as being unworkable and unrealistic. A change to the First Amendment will be needed in the future if a fully secular society is to be realized.
      No one is advocating banning religion outright as this is unrealistic, unworkable, and premature. But religion needs to become extinct at some point, otherwise any claim to "secularism" is a joke.
      It would likely take many decades, probably centuries, before religion could be banned nationally or world-wide with any hope of success. The sheer number of religions and believers could very well push that possibility so far into the future as to be ridiculous, yet a single country has more leverage over it's population compared to the world population as a whole.
      For some reason you don't like people advocating the eradication of religion. Perhaps this sounds too tyrannical for you, but the eradication of insanity is a wholesome goal. Religion is just one aspect of insanity. There are other forms of mental illness that are just as likely to hang around for centuries as religion.
      I, for one, am also advocating the eradication of mental illness. Getting rid of religion would just be a bonus.
      Do I sound like someone getting ready to build a death-camp? Not unless you're Mark with his constant knee-jerk insinuations.
      No, John, I think you are making a mistake about the motives of people who seek to end the farce known as religion. It's not a black and white problem at all.
      Any attempts at solving the problems of mental illness and our human propensity for indoctrination are likely to be rather clumsy unless we do more and better R & D in the field of psychology.
      As for some atheists wanting to be just one more warring sect, that is your interpretation of what they say.
      I want to agree with you and look for peaceful solutions, yet we are talking about bat-shlt crazy violent people here, John.
      You cannot reason with a psychotic. It just isn't done unless you're a well-trained shrink.
      In this, I think your motives are good, but your application is unrealistic. At some point you're going to find that peaceful or warlike relations don't work. Either of them. You can't wage war on the mentally ill any more than you can make peace with them. Do you get what I am saying? Neither war nor peace will work.
      What then is the solution to this apparent dilemma?
      Science. Medicine. Logic.
      You don't make treaties with mentally ill people. They are medical patients. You don't make war or peace with them. You treat them as best you can and hope they can be healed of their illness.
      So then the problem becomes one of treating the delusional, the infirm, the developmentally disabled, etc. and not necessarily where religion is concerned. Religion is just one head of the Hydra. You must heal the Hydra of it's monstrous heads, not try to chop them off, because we're all human and most people are mentally ill to some extent.
      There are genetic factors because we are all human. Eugenics cannot be ruled out entirely because it happens to hold one of the few hopes for the whole human race. We need to evolve in a progressive and healthy way that causes as few problems as possible for everyone. This is actually more likely to happen at "random" than in a scientific setting, and thus is not likely to be called "progress" or "healthy". Random mutation is often "sideways" or regressive to our human value systems. Nature doesn't give a rip. It just flips the DNA around. A crap-shoot.
      If we were more advanced in genetics, engineering the human genome in a progressive way that inhibits mental illness would be a boon to the whole human race.
      I'm not advocating medical fascism or tyranny of any sort. Just the eradication of mental illness from the human genome to the "extent possible". It's quite possible that mental illness cannot be eradicated this way at all, yet it is one of the few paths such a goal might be realized.
      Religion needs to go, John. I'm sure I don't need to tell you why.
      And it's not going to happen anytime soon in this country, either, but it is a worthy goal.
      insanity has ruled human actions for millenia. With technology, the future of the human race is in serious jeopardy as never before. One virus, properly designed and released into the population, could wipe out everyone on this planet.
      Humanity would be no more. Much worse than your fears about people calling for the eradication of religion, wouldn't you say? Technology is not only making the danger worse, it is mental illness coupled with technology that would bring such a killer virus into the open.
      One religious nut with the right education, could destroy over 7 billion people. That is something history has never had before: the potential to cause the extinction of humanity. There is no god to fix this. No god to "restart" the human race.
      We would be gone and damn good riddance for being a bunch of crazy religious idiots who couldn't handle their technology or their religions in the first place!
      So we have to start somewhere. A simple call for education, science, rationality,logic, reason, equality, liberty, and freedom. All the things that do not make up any religion. These things destroy religions. Education of real facts most of all.
      Science is the only hope of mankind. Science has the only hope of eradicating mental illness with any likelihood of success.
      Religion, being the most socially dangerous form of mental illness, needs to go. Period.
      Not today, but as soon as humanly possible. For the sake of the children. For the sake of humanity.
      We're just getting the message out there. You like secularism but you don't like the logical extension of this rational goal.
      We're not talking about eradicating the people, you nitwit. We're talking about eradicating an ingrained system of delusion that we, as humans, are particularly susceptible to. That's going to make it much harder than if it was just something that was easy to eradicate.
      I shouldn't have to educate you on what sort of evil crap is in those religious texts, either. Millions of otherwise average people look upon those words as absolute commands that will cause them to murder and torture anyone, even their own children.
      Is that what you are defending here? You need to stop that crap right now and consider all the ramifications of what humanity needs as a whole. Or you could just go for a nice walk with your dog and enjoy the fresh air or something.
      These are the heaviest of questions. All of humanity hangs in the balance as technology tips the scales against our future survival. I'm not advocating extreme measures. I'm just posting my opinions in this blog. I don't even argue with people face-to-face over this stuff if I can help it. That's not how I do things. The concepts don't translate well when I speak, so I write my stuff out.
      Well, this is a long-ass post. I hope you find yourself a little farther along the path to helping everyone rather than just those who know how to be conciliatory towards others. You can't compromise humanity as a whole with a part.
      It has to be everybody.

      September 13, 2011 at 5:30 am |
    • John Richardson

      @Chaim First, let me acknowledge that there are many ideas bandied about under the banner of secularism and some of them conflict with each other. So some self-described secularists may indeed disagree with at least some of what I say. No even halfway vibrant philosophical movement is mindlessly monolithic and secularism is for sure no exception. That said, I simply have to insist in pointing out that what I'm saying isn't from the fringe or some "odd little conception", but quite mainstream.

      Now, to your points. It is thankfully true that most people who openly espouse a hope that there will one day be a world without religion do not advocate achieving those ends by violent means. Some however, like our own William Demuth, have openly endorsed violence. Yeah, he's probably just a punk hiding behind a computer screen who would start crying if you just stared at him hard enough, but his pro-violence words have been out there for all to see and I see distressingly few non-believers calling him on it. But beside people like Demuth, there are others who are teetering on the brink of endorsing violence with calls for eventual BANS on religion. Seriously, how many prohibitions and drugs wars do we need to endure before people stop thinking you can make a pile of verbiage law and make things magically disappear, Prohibitions have an outrageous history of failure, tend to make a lot of things worse and only have what few successes they can ever claim by using brutal, often paramilitarized enforcement methods?

      Religion may be the single most pernicious delusion out and about in the land, but the faith of many government can be somehow truly beneficent but also both willing and able to make things disappear by force of law runs a very, very close second and we don't need ANY delusional thinking going forward if we are going to make any changes that stand a chance of being truly for the better.

      September 13, 2011 at 10:48 am |
  12. fred

    Ya got the wrong Mary. Jesus mother was a virgin.

    September 12, 2011 at 8:27 pm |
    • *frank*

      Yeah, and I'm Lorenzo Medici...

      September 12, 2011 at 8:35 pm |
    • AGuest9

      After the 6th kid, I doubt it. 🙂

      September 12, 2011 at 8:45 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      No confusion. We're talking about the same character from The Babble.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • fred

      I am just glad you have read the Bible, just think if you hadn't then I would need to cut and paste all kinds of verses or at a minimum post that butterfly.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:07 pm |
    • Sue

      Which mythological virgin mother of a god are we talking about again? There have been so many throughout the ages.

      September 12, 2011 at 11:24 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      The one that is part of the cult herbie is a member of.

      September 13, 2011 at 1:15 am |
    • fred

      Purity of mind and thought Sue is very rare and precious. I doubt virginity is confusing to you and I doubt you are confused about the truth of Jesus. You reject the truth because of your lifestyle not because any strength of science or logic.

      September 13, 2011 at 1:33 am |
    • Chaim

      Sue has a lifestyle? Srsly? How would you know that, fred? Or are you just trying to bluff your way through your post-e-vac?

      September 13, 2011 at 1:51 am |
    • fred

      You seem to be weighed down with guilt. Guilt can be of value to restrain some moral lapse but generally only results in low self esteem. You may consider reviewing the success you have had in the past as encouragement to succeed again. Get out of that lazyboy and hit the pavement.

      September 13, 2011 at 2:01 am |
    • Chaim

      Thanks for the laugh, fred!
      It's people like you that give me TONS of self-esteem as I read your posts and realize that I am waaaay smarter than you religious idiots, and lucky too! I am free and you can't even imagine how nice that can be, for you love your prison where the screams of your fellow believers echo in the halls until you can't even think or hear yourself think.
      That doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for your limited intellect, though. You should be given a place where you can live a rewarding lifestyle...far away from rational people like me. The internets will likely bifurcate in the future. Maybe you'll have a Christian internet where no one will say anything but your own stinky nonsense.
      Just think! You could listen to all the wonderful sermons ever written forever! No nasty atheists to mock you or your non-existent god! It would be like heaven, where everyone walks and breathes in lockstep, ready to do your god's bidding (4-bit server program at a premium price, lol) just as soon as someone figures out what that really is. LOL

      September 13, 2011 at 2:22 am |
    • Sue

      Oh, I'm not confused by what you call Jesus' truth, but do you think that any woman who disagrees with you isn't "pure" and has a "lifestyle"? Seriously, did they teach you that in Sunday school? Lame, but not unexpected.

      September 13, 2011 at 8:20 am |
    • fred

      Not at all. The lifestyle of Mary pure and innocent is a key part of the Bible. The Bible is written in such a way that who you really are is revealed in your response to the Bible / God. Notice that God is a Holy God thus cannot be with one that is not pure and innocent. It is what the Bible reveals to us, a story of God redeeming those He loves. We are not virgins (pure and innocent) so God came to us through one that was pure and innocent (Jesus). Mans response was to reject, mock and crucify that which is pure and innocent. The Bible in detail cuts into our real soul and never makes a mistake when it reveals who we really are to this day. I am not slamming you as I haven’t a clue as to who you really are. But, just as God reveals Himself to us through the Bible and Creation so to we reveal ourselves in what we say, do and have done in the past. I look at the universe in awe seeing wonder in our very existence knowing that God (or unknown force for atheists) our creator is so much greater than we can ever imagine. I see the detail and care given to earth that provides all man needs for life itself sensing love from the creator. All creation around me puts me in my place so that when you and Chaim call me an idiot I agree with you. I cannot question or understand the mind of God anymore than a dog can understand E=Mc2.
      What I sense in your response to purity has an inaudible resonance that reaches beyond your physical presence. It has its origin in the deep and is unmistakable. Your life carries that dread wherever you go. Mocking Jesus grieves the Holy Spirit not because Jesus can’t take it but, because of what is happening to your soul. The story of Adam and Eve is not about a snake and an apple it is about purity and innocence deceived.
      You tell me I cannot prove it. Well, I see it in you today. I see it in myself today. Just how real does it need to be.

      September 13, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • Free

      "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law," Galatians 4:4
      If Jesus' miraculous birth was not a later addition to his legend then why is it that Paul doesn't mention it at all? The only other reference Paul makes to Jesus' birth is Romans 1:1-3, and that seems to emphasize Jesus' lineage to David via Joseph. "Seed" implies biological lineage, and not symbolic.

      The myths of Hercules, Prometheus, Bacchus, Horus, Hermes,Osiris, Perseus and Mithra were all well established in pre-Christian times. All of them had a god for a father and a human virgin for a mother. They all had their birth announced with music and a sign in the sky. They had all been born about December 25, had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant, met with a violent death, rose again from the dead, and some of them even had the visit by "wise men" and a 40 day fast. Yet, you don't see any similarity between their stories and the nativity narrative? Really?!?

      The virgin births of antiquity don't end there either. Adonis was born of a virgin named Myrrha. Myrrha, Mary, hmm... The Buddha's virgin mom was named Maya. Krishna is the second deity of the main Hindu trinity of gods, and he has a virgin birth story too. Zoroaster, whose religion shares a lot with Christianity, was also a son of a virgin. Add some Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors, and Alexander the Great to the list. Then we have Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome in myth. By the time of Matthew and Luke, most of the new converts to Christianity were coming from pagan Roman origins, and their virgin birth story would have been well known to them. So, virgin births were pretty much normal and expected for important people back then, right?

      September 13, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • fred

      You do not believe in the miracles so one would expect you approach virgin birth with total bias. You also do not believe in Jesus, God or the Divine nature of Gods Bible. In case you have not noticed this God which you say does not exist and His word live right up to what they say every time to this very day. Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through me. Well guess what it was through Jesus that I came to know God. Prior to that point I was with you as to God being myth at best. Why would God reveal Himself to you or Sue on your terms (He can if He so chooses)? I had to be completely broken to seek God who was. People come to embrace God in many ways mine was one.
      As to the virgin birth of Christ it was only reported by Matthew and Luke. Luke was a doctor so of course this would be in his scope of interest. He also gave more explanation than genealogy because as a doctor “how could this be”. Matthew was writing to the Jews who are sticklers on blood lines, paternal lineage required and Joseph husband of Mary meets Jewish law of lineage. Virgin birth ties with Isaiah prophecy and necessity for Jesus to be of God not man. Once again it is supernatural so bias will block comprehension. You actually believe in the supernatural simply choosing to call it unknown force yet to be determined.

      Paul was a Jewish leader and knew full well of Isaiah prophecy / linage issue assuming it settled no sense to bring that up again. He was on a different track organizing and forming the church.

      Isaiah goes back to 700 BC so I am not certain how far back your other virgin births go. I could look it up and argue the case but I would only see what I was looking for.

      September 13, 2011 at 8:10 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Of course, fred, you can prove that this doctor named Luke actually wrote the gospel that bears his name? The gospels were written decades after Jesus died, and no one can prove that they were actually written by who they were claimed to have been written by.

      September 13, 2011 at 9:27 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Furthermore, as listed in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Luke had a great knowledge of the Septuagint and of things Jewish, which he acquired either as a Jewish proselyte (St. Jerome) or after he became a Christian, through his close intercourse with the Apostles and disciples. "

      Note that his "close intercourse" was second-hand. So, at least one of the four writers of the story of the life of Jesus NEVER MET THE MAN.

      September 13, 2011 at 9:39 pm |
    • fred

      I just bearly figured out the Bible (I think) and no idea what to make over all the different opinions on the net concerning Luke. As for me Jesus came into my life just as the Bible said and changed me completly. I am thankful and realize I have a lot more to figure out. So, for now the only real proof I have is what Jesus did for me and others that also had life changing experience with Jesus.

      September 14, 2011 at 2:05 am |
    • Free

      "You do not believe in the miracles so one would expect you approach virgin birth with total bias."
      I do not believe in miracles in the same way that I do not believe in reincarnation, actual magic, horoscopes, ouija boards, voodoo, elves, alien abductions, ghosts, and a host of other things. Odds are, you're skeptical enough of at least some of these same things not to 'believe' in them as I don't believe in virgin births. We can't say for absolute certainty that some of these things won't be proven true some time in the future, but for now there just isn't justification to believe in them, yes? Like miracles, they all first require a leap of faith in order to be accepted as true.

      More to the point, you do believe in miracles, so you also bring that bias to the question of the virgin birth. Again, I doubt that you are arguing against all skepticism, as that would leave people open to beliefs you would consider evil and harmful, right? So, how do you make your case for selectively lowering your firewall just for beliefs associated with Jesus? Is there any logic behind that choice, or was it just an accident of geography? Would you, for example, be arguing right now against Jesus being divine had you lived in a Muslim or Jewish community? There are plenty of folks who can give amazing testimonials to their conversions from Christianity into these faiths, as well as others. So why should we just accept your claim that only conversions into Christianity are valid, or special? Then again, do you accept all conversions into Christianity as valid? How about people becoming Catholic, or Seventh Day Adventist, or even Mormon? Are only 'born again' conversions valid?

      Gotta go for now. I will try to address the rest of your post later.
      Take care.

      September 14, 2011 at 10:35 am |
    • fred

      I think I mentioned to you that the strength of my faith goes up and down. At minimum faith level I look at the virgin birth as metaphor or descriptor that Jesus was pure in all respects untouched by man which often has $exual overtones or linage. God is pure and Holy thus only pureness can approach. You and I can never be that pure no matter what we do. So just as the ark carried Noah so too Jesus carries us. Enveloped in Him our ark. We are carried by Him to the Kingdom and placed where God wants us (just like Noah). You will find me under the rainbow. Now, I have not looked at this from a biblical view because I know there are reams of theology that go against me. However, if everything in the bible tossed I remain confident that I will be taken up because of what Jesus did not anything I could do.

      Yes, geography is important in faith but, God overrules all geography, time and place constraints. In short I was put here because this is all I can handle. God would not have me face the lions in a den because He knows my faith hangs on a thread not rope. As to other faiths being valid I see similarities in core heart / soul atti-tudes. Knowing the character and attributes of God he is more than able to sort souls out. True believers (even though they continually fall) look up in hope. True believers look outside themselves with a sense of awe. True believers know they are small and can never know the mind of God. The words meek, poor, humble, love, peace, seeking that which is: true, lovely, excellent, worthy of admiration. Believers are filled with admiration for the one. True believers see the face of man in what was done to Christ in contrast to the face of Jesus a faithful servant. You are a reflection of what you believe and if you are a true believer the radiance of God should be evident.
      Jesus said I know my sheep and call them by name. Many are not of this flock.

      September 14, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • Free

      If the virgin birth is a metaphor in the Bible, then it's also a metaphor in those other religions and myths, right? Other religions had purity issues too. Selecting the proper sacrifices to Jupiter use to take a long time, and a lot of manpower.

      If everything in the bible were tossed wouldn't that include rapture theology, or is that something that didn't come from the Bible, as most Christians and atheists already know?

      If true believers know they are small and can never know the mind of God then how is it that they act with such certainty as to what God wants them to do? How can God be so alien to our understanding, yet so clearly 'understood' by the faithful? Can you make any sense of that for me?

      How many Republican politicians or mega-church pastors can be described using the words "meek, poor, humble, love, peace, and seeking"? Seriously, many conservative Christians that I know seem to think that being meek, poor, and peaceful are harmful to society and the nation, and blame liberals and secularists for eroding the nation into valuing these. If what you say is true, the the real 'true' believers out there are the moderate liberals within the faiths, in which case I'd be inclined to agree.

      TTFN again! Peace!

      September 14, 2011 at 3:12 pm |
    • fred

      Back to virgins on a typical day. Luke as a doctor seemed concerned as to how do I explain this. The depth of what Mary felt “how could this be” tells me it must be important and a surprise to her. In order to tie into Genesis which only mentions the woman’s seed with the line of David the virgin birth is more real than metaphor. The difference between Mary and the queens and goddesses that had virgin births is Mary was a nobody (except to God). Poor humble Mary to the world but special to God. It was not a reincarnation and the child was to be a humble servant not Thor like or sun god like. So, I think the Bible version different than other virgin births.
      I don’t think rapture theology is in the Bible. Seems when we accept Christ our eternity begins at that point as we continue on the journey.
      Not sure about others but for me I feel special when Gods presence is close. We often pray to know Gods will in a situation only to find out it happens in the rear view mirror. The Bible gives stories of the impossible happening and power that comes into a believer from the Holy Spirit (Stephen, Pentecost etc). The Bible says the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth. We believe this thus “understand these hidden things clearly”. Combine that with a sense God answers our prayer, loves us, protects us and has a plan for us we come off sounding sure of ourselves. Further, I don’t find God alien to our understanding and think I know His character and attributes. If you live with someone a while you get to know how they react and who they are. I think the Holy Spirit lives in me and I spend time in prayer and praising God / thanking God……….it becomes a real relationship.
      As to moderate liberals within the faiths yeah, Jesus said let the tares grow up with the wheat until the harvest.

      September 14, 2011 at 9:30 pm |
    • Free

      Unlike today, midwives usually handled births back then. I doubt that Luke, or any doctor back then would know much more than the average male about pregnancy. Jesus being of the house of David is traced through his supposed (there are two different lineages recorded in the gospels) male ancestors. Gods not only had their way with mortal queens, but with simple peasant girls as well, so Mary does not stand out as unique in any way. Besides, there weren't any Jewish queens to speak of for Jesus to have been born to, right? I really don't see how you can logically argue that the Bible story is any different really from any of the other virgin birth stories. It's like being a bait shop owner and hearing countless stories of the one that got away. 🙂

      If you live with someone you really can get a sense of what their character and motivations are, but that analogy involves human-human interactions, right? Jesus may have been, but God is not human. If you believe he thinks of us as his creations, and manipulates kings and foreign powers to test his people, then you really cannot get any insight into what he will likely do based upon your experience with fellow humans. That would be like ants using their experience with the rest of the colony to understand the kid kneeling with the sun at his back holding a magnifying glass. Thinking that you have a 'relationship' with such a being only works if you lower him to your level, and give him human emotions and motivations like everyone else does with their gods. Ever see The Ant Bully? Does God really need to be humbled?

      Moderate liberals = tares? Would that mean that zealots are the chosen? How does that fit in with the beat.itude blessings?

      September 15, 2011 at 10:27 am |
    • fred

      >” I really don't see how you can logically argue that the Bible”
      Ok, can’t argue a literal virgin birth, agreed. Note, those parts that are unique to God and paths to finding God cannot be found by logic, reason or science. I could probably find the verse that backs it up but busy right now. God has gone to great lengths to make it so obvious that man cannot know the mind of God. Einstein could only marvel in awe at the miraculous as he and Hawkins will pass away only able to prove the things of man never anything beyond self. If the devil is real he certainly keeps the sharpest minds of our society locked in the box of man knowledge. God forbid should Hawking say I believe in Jesus as Lord and savior.
      Now, God is not playing a trick on the ant colony. Long ago God breathed life into man and made us in his image. That part which allows you to imagine / think outside the box has no problem connecting with God. Jesus was man so that we had more than your ant bully to relate to. Those that do not believe in God have role models such as Lincoln that they even talk to. At a minimum Jesus makes a good role model. His teachings show how to be one with the Father just as Jesus was one with the father. Follow those teachings and emulate Christ like behavior and your time of prayer is a conversation between God and yourself. A big leap from ant consciousness. We are not bringing God down to our level, rather experiencing a small part of what He has chosen to reveal to us. The understanding that God is good is based on His dealings with peoples over time and observation of His creation being just right for man. Those that did not have a Bible would make their own gods. Typically one makes gods that fit their need. Most are good to them and care for them so I can say there appears something innate in knowing gods are good.
      No, moderate liberals are not tares. Those that reject God intentionally or unintentionally are tares. Conservative Christians need to begin to reflect Christ in their actual lives. Real Christians do not last long in politics………………..I think Jesus said you cannot please both man and God….but I best look that up. Perhaps I am stretching he two masters concept.

      September 15, 2011 at 2:07 pm |
    • Free

      "that man cannot know the mind of God."
      Again, if God's mind is so alien, how can Christians claim to understand his motivations? If he's real, who's to say that his idea of love isn't more along the lines of our loving a good steak? He supposedly needs human souls for a reason, right? What if they are his fuel, so to speak? This idea is just as valid as any for a being whose mind is incomprehensible to mere humans. Of course, mere humans have no trouble stringing together the words to make the phrase "that man cannot know the mind of God" just like they can string together "the four-sided triangle", but that doesn't necessarily mean that what is said actually makes sense, or could actually exist, let alone do.

      Marvelling at the wonders off nature does not make Einstein or any other scientist a believer in the supernatural. The natural world is amazing enough without embellishments out of the imagination. Not that these people did not have normal imaginations; they just knew better than to treat what they imagined as real until the proof was discovered to confirm it. If God prefers flights of fancy over this than I question the who is the better deity, he or the devil? I thought that the devil was supposed to prey upon people at their weakest, and since irrational thought is usually a sign of weakness shouldn't the argument go that the devil hasn't been able to affect the sharper minds among us? Of course, dull minds wouldn't think of that, I suppose?

      Thinking outside the box is great, but there comes a time when we must separate the good ideas from the ones that just don't work, right?

      Who 'talks' to Lincoln?

      Emulating Jesus is OK. For the most part his wisdom can be pretty helpful, but then you call him 'Christ' which is a leap above just a minimal belief in the man's wisdom, yes? Sating that you have a 'relationship' with God/Christ implies an equality, and since we aren't being elevated to their level what you are really doing is pulling them down to ours. If what you say you are experiencing is just a 'small part' then who is to say what the rest of it actually is? A shepherd may pat the head of the lamb one day, but he has plans to roast him the next.

      "The understanding that God is good is based on His dealings with peoples over time and observation of His creation being just right for man."
      Wouldn't "His dealings" include all the slaughters of Canaanite people's before Joshua's forces? The Great Flood? His actions were good for some people, but not everyone, and why do you believe that his creation is 'perfect' for mankind? Most of the universe is just empty space and a vacuum. Much of the Earth is ocean, or arctic, or high mountain. Apart from the tropics, we need technology of our own invention in order to live anywhere else. Seems that a 'perfect' creation would be habitable everywhere.

      "Typically one makes gods that fit their need."
      Couldn't agree with you more! 🙂
      Read Karen Armstrong's History of God and see this evolution of God in detail. Americans who like to be wealthy have invented their own God, just as those who are against pacifism have invented theirs. The general rule of thumb is that God becomes the God people want him to be, the one that matches what they value. A lot of this has to do with ego, I suspect.

      "No, moderate liberals are not tares."
      What you said before was this:
      "As to moderate liberals within the faiths yeah, Jesus said let the tares grow up with the wheat until the harvest."
      If not the tares, then they must be the wheat, just as Jesus said with the beat.itudes. Now that actually makes some sense. Thank you!

      September 15, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • fred

      You asked who talks to Lincoln?
      WASHINGTON, DC – Just as Bill Clinton did before him, President Barack Obama is now getting help in the White House – from Abraham Lincoln’s ghost!

      A government insider has revealed that Honest Abe’s apparition has been seen in the Oval Office on several occasions, quietly conferring with the President on vital world issues!

      “When I read that Mr. Lincoln’s ghost has been meeting with President Clinton, I laughed out loud,” the insider said.

      “But I’m not laughing anymore. I’ve seen the ghost and President Obama together with my own eyes. Believe me, it’s a very humbling experience.”

      In a 1993 issue, Weekly World News stunned the world with its exclusive story that the Great Emancipator was helping President Clinton guide America’s ship of state through troubled waters. So it comes as no surprise that he is now advising Obama, especially considering their shared Illinois origins.

      September 15, 2011 at 8:16 pm |
    • Free

      Weekly World News! 🙂

      September 15, 2011 at 11:28 pm |
    • fred

      >” who's to say that his idea of love isn't more along the lines of our loving a good steak”
      For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son
      >” What if they are his fuel, so to speak”
      We were created so he could demonstrate His love and goodness, or simply because He is love and goodness
      >” a 'relationship' with God/Christ implies an equality”
      Far from it, we (our weak sinful self) must die to Christ. In short that remaining Christ likeness has relationship. Note even the Holy Spirit must “translate our prayer”(conversation).
      >” His actions were good for some people”
      When you get chemo the bad cells are killed off so the patient can live. That is good for all people.
      >” why do you believe that his creation is 'perfect' for mankind”
      So far it is the only known planet that life survived on. God chose the Garden of Eden but, it was not mans choosing.

      September 16, 2011 at 2:22 am |
    • Free

      "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son"
      But, supposedly, he guides people to God, right? Kinda like a shepherd would guide his sheep to the slaughterhouse if God actually were consuming people's souls.

      "We were created so he could demonstrate His love and goodness, or simply because He is love and goodness"
      And a shepherd breeds his flock not to shower them with affection as prized pet companions, but as a resource he means to use, right?

      "Far from it, we (our weak sinful self) must die to Christ. "
      Not sure what you're arguing for here? Are you saying that people get elevated to Christ's level, or that there is still a vast gap between the two. In either case I still cannot see where a 'relationship' as we understand the term between humans can exist. Is it more like what exists between a person and their pet dog? That'd make us atheists more like God's cats. 🙂

      "When you get chemo the bad cells are killed off so the patient can live. That is good for all people."
      The Bible doesn't say that these people were so evil that they had to be killed. The Canaanites were just in the way, like Native Americans in the beginning and, some say, still are. Same for the Palestinians. Good for us, not so good for them.

      "So far it is the only known planet that life survived on."
      So far, but at the rate we are learning about other planets, maybe it won't be for long, eh?

      "God chose the Garden of Eden but, it was not mans choosing."
      Even on this planet God could only make a tiny enclave that was just right for man to survive. Even elderly people can tend to a garden.

      September 16, 2011 at 8:27 am |
    • fred

      As a child did you always get in the last word? Was that a good thing or a bad thing that one should get set in the corner for.

      September 16, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • MIke

      "As a child did you always get in the last word? Was that a good thing or a bad thing that one should get set in the corner for."

      Means you're clueless.

      September 16, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
    • fred

      Well, looks like Mlke gets the last word and leaves on a negative note. Off to the corner Mlke.

      September 16, 2011 at 11:01 pm |
    • Free

      Maybe you've just run out of arguments?

      September 17, 2011 at 12:37 am |
    • fred

      Not good with arguments. Some of the peps on this web seem to be fresh off the debate team. What does amaze me is that all the thought seems to be the same as to why not God. Searching for what is wrong about "Gods" revelation rather than is there anything for humanity in this Bible. I find non believers yet prefer to get the solution from a non God source even though the solution is the same. Why not at least say hey, there is some worth while stuff here.,

      September 19, 2011 at 12:13 am |
  13. fred

    I would like to buy my new friend Rollo 2lbs of brains where do I send the money?

    September 12, 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    • Modmon

      Send them to your zombie Jesus. He wants more brainz since he is so clever as to contradict himself and his religion and get caught and executed for the slavering rabid zombie you make him out to be.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:11 pm |
    • fred

      Very real then and now. Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us which is different than a zombie

      September 12, 2011 at 8:24 pm |
    • Rollo

      fred, my drooling idiot brother, why don't you spend that money on a clue for yourself? I can see you've never had one before.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:25 pm |
    • fred

      As my brother I would like to wish you a great day!

      September 12, 2011 at 8:31 pm |
    • Rollo

      Thanks, fred. A great day for me would be people like you finally getting a clue about the delusional nature of your religion.
      But it's going okay so far regardless of your wishes. That's how reality works.
      Not to be too much of an ass-hole, may you have a great day apart from your religious goals.
      I'm not too good at wishing you well, it seems. Oh, well.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:39 pm |
    • fred

      Well, you guys almost had me going with the all the wrong information that comes off the internet. Good news is that I personnally had a big time change in life after the Holy Spirit grabbed hold of me. I know it works and I know it is for real. I also witnessed the same happening to others. So brother I will leave you alone but, I am always happy to share what really happened.
      You may be glad to know that after a few go arounds on this site with Atheists I realized that it is difficult to prove Jesus was God if not impossible using reason. Then I realized God does not reveal Himself through reason. God gave us science and reason to get through this life and Jesus to get into the next. But, thank you all for the eye opener from a Christian that thinks he lost his blinders.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:52 pm |
    • Believer

      Well, you guys almost had me going with the all the wrong information that comes off the internet. Good news is that I personnally had a big time change in life after the Holy Elvis grabbed hold of me. I know it works and I know it is for real. I also witnessed the same happening to others. So brother I will leave you alone but, I am always happy to share what really happened.
      You may be glad to know that after a few go arounds on this site with Athelvises (?) I realized that it is difficult to prove Elvis was God if not impossible using reason. Then I realized Elvis does not reveal Himself through reason. Elvis gave us science and reason to get through this life and Jailhouse Rock to get into the next. But, thank you all for the eye opener from a Elvistian that thinks he lost his blinders.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:11 pm |
    • Sue

      Uh huh huh!

      September 12, 2011 at 11:28 pm |
  14. SecularTruther

    I hope for world peace but I know it is not going to happen as long as others believe in any of the unproven barbaric religious texts that say others who follow other unproven barbaric religious texts are your enemy and you have to convert them. My god is better than your god argument is a pretty pathetic, arrogant and is extremely old. Until someone finds physical evidence of any artifacts mentioned throughout history like the 10 commandments you can't say stories that emerged from different religions by word of mouth being put together in the old testament,is factual.

    September 12, 2011 at 7:32 pm |
    • *frank*

      Well, even finding the tablets wouldn't prove anything other than that somebody engraved them and told people "god gave these to me".

      September 12, 2011 at 7:35 pm |
    • Rollo

      Good point, *frank*. Unless these ten commandments (there are several versions, I hear) are demonstrably "magical" in some way or show some sort of real proof in how they are made, then all they are is just history-junk with no substance in terms of proving a religion to be true. Moses, as an Egyptian pretending to be a Jew (hm?), surely knew a lot about how to carve rocks from his years growing up surrounded by death-cults with stone-cutters galore running around.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"My god is better than your god argument is a pretty pathetic, arrogant and is extremely old."

      It looks, according to the article, that they are not doing such and coming together in the name of peace and tolerance.

      When you state what you believe will bring about world peace call others views and beliefs "barbaric",... how much different are you to those that you call pathetic and arrogant?

      September 12, 2011 at 7:48 pm |
    • Modmon

      Anyone who hopes for world peace will hopefully work towards that goal instead of cutting down their neighbors and creating more war without a plan like some people I could name.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:59 pm |
    • *frank*

      Maybe his whole trip when he kept flipping out over graven images and gold idols stemmed from a sweat shop job back in Egypt he was still bitter about, where he had to make little gold painted dung beetles and jackals for tourists, at the ancient world's equivalent of Cannery Row or Fisherman's Wharf?

      September 12, 2011 at 8:05 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"creating more war without a plan like some people I could name."

      Yeah GW Bush had us in Iraq, Afganistan, and a prison with no end in Gitmo.

      Three years later and Obama has us all the same places .... and now reported by the Pentagon, we have troops on the ground in Libya....

      September 12, 2011 at 8:05 pm |
    • Free

      Hope for world peace is just talk, like prayer. Talk, as they say, is cheap. Less talk and more action, I say!

      September 12, 2011 at 11:33 pm |
  15. kimsland

    'a leader in the Muslim intellectual community.'

    Come on, that's definitely a contradiction.
    Anyway its good they posted their names, I'm sure the police keep a watchful eye on this group, since they believe in the Qur'an obviously something is wrong with them. Lets hope they don't have wives or children, now that would be bad.

    September 12, 2011 at 6:39 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"Anyway its good they posted their names, I'm sure the police keep a watchful eye on this group,"

      Ahh, Kims your next move will be to round them up.

      Folks like you move towards "final solution" territory faster than 3rd Reich.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:51 pm |
    • Modmon

      see? Hey, JohnR, haven't you seen this before? Mark is a kid with a knee-jerk delusion. His integrity is in being stupid.
      And no, I'm not talking to Mark, but that rarely stops him.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:56 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      When TruthPrevails says that he will not stop I agree with him on that. The other thing that he or she said that was so deep and meaningful was this:

      "Being happy and living life to its fullest is what this should be about, not attacking each other so viciously."

      Where do you stand Mod. 🙂

      September 12, 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    • Modmon

      He can't help but respond.
      I love it when people prove me right in their ignorance as they seek to prove me wrong.
      There's just something deliciously ironic about the whole thing, you know?
      Btw, I am still not speaking to Mark.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:07 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Justine: "Being happy and living life to its fullest is what this should be about, not attacking each other so viciously."

      Roll with it kid 🙂

      September 13, 2011 at 4:39 am |
    • John Richardson

      Not sure why you are calling to me, Modmon. Because I've defended Mark? Yes, I like Mark, have defended him from spurious criticisms and will do so in the future as needed. But that hardly means that I agree with him totally. My first encounter with him was long knock down, drag out argument on science and religion. But Mark IS one of the saner voices for moderation around here. Yes, it would help if he could criticize Kimsland's police state mentality towards all things Muslim w/o immediately insinuating a full blown 3rd Reich scenario. But which is worse, calling for someone to be targeted by the police for believing in the Quran or accusing someone who said that of pushing for a Final Solution? The latter is hyperbole, the former the direct advocacy of police harassment simply on the basis of someone's religious affiliation. Maybe what Kimsland says doesn't suck as much as Mark said it does, but it sure does suck.

      September 13, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
  16. RightTurnClyde

    having Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson talk about 9/11 is like having the Grand Dragon of the KKK talk about how much he's done for civil rights .. like having Herman Goering talk about Jewish social programs .. or Josef Stalin talk about how to mine salt. It is like having Obama talk about creating jobs while B of A announces a lay off of 30,000 employees. Rub salt in the wound .. it will feel so goo when they stop rubbing salt into it. This is how to stop forest fires by letting them burn houses (and making it a house fire). This is how to stop a ship from sinking by calling it a submarine. This is an insult to sub-average intelligence (which is ALL that is left in NYC .. and the liberal audiences of NYC) They deserve to have a mosque at ground zero and also at city hall ... what limited affection I may have had (only occasionally) for NYC evaporates. NYC is what happens when you do Feng Sui at a garbage dump.

    September 12, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • *frank*

      NYC is one of the intellectual and artistic centers of the world...

      September 12, 2011 at 6:42 pm |
    • The Finisher

      RightTurnClyde is too wrapped up in his buzzing mantras to hear you, frank.
      Maybe if you couched your words in Cold War terms, he'd listen and maybe get a clue for once in between Fox News propaganda bits.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
    • Modmon

      RTC is an angry and bitter old fart without a clue. There's thousands of others just like him. They smear their diarrhea all over the internet and just act like pieces of sh-t the whole time. Who gives a f** what this idiot says.

      September 12, 2011 at 8:01 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      Well I have to laugh at the responses. One proclaims NYC is an intellectual and art center (why any city on earth claim the same thing?) That IS a clue. The last guy cannot utter one sentence without using asterisks to cover up his potty talk (and this a cultural center?) and his entire string of words are nothing other than potty talk. Hahaha .. some culture. Some intellect.

      September 13, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
  17. Bill/Fl

    For the athiest trying everday on every belief blog, to insight conversation on how they can prove thete is no GOD only yells me how foolish they are.

    Only a fool says in their heart there is no GOD.

    This is a belief blog. If you don't have any beliefs, you are wasting our time, what little brain matter you do have and sounding very foolish.

    Stop posting, stop being a fool. Or, accept some belief and talk about it

    We are not interested in your nonsense.



    Stop being the fools you are.

    September 12, 2011 at 6:05 pm |
    • A Theist

      I think Jesus would have said, "Hey Atheist, LET'S HANG OUT!" not "go away."

      September 12, 2011 at 6:08 pm |
    • The Finisher

      I am far away already. Perhaps you'd like to kill me instead? Come at me, bro!

      September 12, 2011 at 6:12 pm |
    • Justine



      Geez! That's not very nice at all. I thought that Christians were supposed to be kind and loving! Ghandi once famously said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Would you tell a Buddhist to go away? A Jew? A Hindu? A Native American Shaman? They don't believe in Jesus, either!

      As an atheist, I would never try to prove something as pompous as "God doesn't exist." I can't know that. There may very well be a god, but I don't believe it's "that" guy in "that" book. None of the gods I have ever heard of seem very likely, but that doesn't mean that no god exists. I'm very interested in faith, and I have just as much right to read about and discuss faith, belief, and religion as you do!

      September 12, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Oh man ...are you planning to use every one of William Lane Craig's tired and totally debunked fallacious arguments to try to make me cower. Lame...and it just helps demonstrate how pathetic your stance really is. Care to try TAG next...idiot.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:22 pm |
    • Bill/Fl

      No, still love you guys. You drew the wrong conclusion.

      Stay around, share your beliefs.

      Stop posting ill will towards Christians, Mulsims, Jews or anyone who is not an arhiest.

      We are here to share our faith.

      You hate us for standing up to you.

      Get use to it.

      You are here to stay, so are we.

      Get us to it.

      We will continue to tell you the truth that you are wrong.

      And you'll reply likewise.

      One big circle.

      Smiling back at you.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • The Finisher

      A circle-jerk for believers is just the sort of place where everyone should go and joggle elbows of the faithfully deluded circle-jerkers. Somebody needs to wake you people up to the evil you are doing in the world according to your crazy beliefs.
      If you want a Christian website so damn bad, go to one and leave this place. This is a news website, not a Christian one.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      No we won't go away. Nowhere on this site does it state it is only christian based; nowhere does it state that Atheist's are not welcomed and the last I recalled you are not the one running this website...until the moderators of this page tell us to go, we will be here. Understand this once and for all, most of us on here come from christian backgrounds and those of us who proclaim to be Atheist have done so after years and years of searching for answers. Being an atheist and admitting to it did not come without some loss but it is not my loss in the end, I have not changed as a person only my belief has and if people wish to judge me on that it is their choice but I do attempt to live my life not judging people.
      You call out AtheistSteve and I can say from firsthand experience, you have him wrong. Steve is wonderful loving man who I adore and will stand by to the end of our days together. Being happy and living life to its fullest is what this should be about, not attacking each other so viciously.
      I take offense more to the fact that you only spew hatred towards us, you have no tolerance and that in itself is wrong. You have no idea who we are or what we do or what our backgrounds are and so you don't get to judge me or anyone else. If you wish to keep believing, feel free to do so but do not expect us to agree with you based on a book that has never changed in 2000 years. How you can deny the facts set forth by science when the evidence is clearly set out is incomprehensible...it makes one wonder about the type of person you are. I understand that you were raised christian and had the fear of god instilled in you...not all of us remain in that way of thinking, some of us grow up.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Is it just the atheists you want to go away? You do realize that there are more beliefs in this world than yours?

      Also, it bears repeating that disagreement does not equal hate. I disagree with much you have to say, Bill. I don't hate you. I doubt anyone else here really hates you or any other Christian.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:44 pm |
    • The Finisher

      We hate the insanity, not the poor crazy person. But a good kick in the ass wouldn't hurt too much, either and would be mighty satisfying. That's how a lot of violence gets started: disagreements of some sort where one lashes out with violence after coming to the wrong conclusion that violence would solve anything. Only death solves the problem of people who cannot be healed. We don't need to go around hating sick people. We just need to get you some good meds and keep you away from the internet.
      Otherwise you show up here and say crazy things. Seriously, wouldn't you rather have a cute nurse give you meds and happy endings? I sure would. Maybe by the time I'm dying of old age they'll have places and nurses like that.
      But hate you? Not so much. When a family member is sick we are sad. You are our idiot brother without a clue who needs medication and a good bit of s-ex to clear your mind a bit.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:05 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"Geez! That's not very nice at all. I thought that Christians were supposed to be kind and loving! "

      Well, let's see, we have folks calling people of Faith Barbaric and another saying that the Government should keep tabs on all of the Islamic faith.

      But you want to just focus on the Christian who makes similar types of statements? I think I will do a cut and paste of your statement and everytime a Atheist makes a hateful statement, we will hear your words. Would that be ok with you Justine 🙂

      September 12, 2011 at 7:58 pm |
    • Modmon

      So Mark secretly admires Reality and Reality's methods of cutting and pasting. Way to go, squirmy Mark! lol

      September 12, 2011 at 8:04 pm |
    • Reality

      The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians during the past 200 years) – please paste a copy on the front page of your NT:

      I might believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven.

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
      ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.


      September 12, 2011 at 11:43 pm |
    • Free

      In Paul's time science did not yet have any better answers to questions about our existence. Anyone claiming that there were no gods then really didn't have any alternative answers to questions like how the universe began, so they really would have looked like a fool, but things are completely different now. In today's world you can answer questions about the universe quite easily without even implying that God is behind anything. So, Paul's statement falls completely flat today.

      It's also interesting that Paul has no trouble calling people a 'fool', but Jesus condemns such name-calling.

      "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matt. 5:22

      Then again, Paul never was a student of Jesus, was he?

      September 12, 2011 at 11:47 pm |
    • Reality

      Matt 5:22 has been reviewed by many contemporary NT scholars and has been judged by most to be another embellishment by Matthew. Said passage is found no where else in the NT making it a single attestation and thereby historically unreliable.

      e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=395_Against_Anger and Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, – pp. 138-139.

      September 13, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • Free

      That would be sad if it were true as it would diminish my respect for Jesus' common sense. Name-calling is just plane childish.

      September 13, 2011 at 11:41 am |
    • Reality

      Some added common sense:

      Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.

      Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospels being mostly fiction.

      Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!

      So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?

      September 13, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
  18. Bill/Fl

    Athiest hate GOD. Period! It's that simple.

    We are just the easy target of their hatred and bully tactics.

    Remember, love the sinner. We all have sinned and come up short to the Glory of our Holy Almighty God.

    As for specially hating Christians, easy, they hate Christ and all that He stands for.

    GOD is still on HIS throne. Alive and well.

    Athiest have lost the battle, but ignore the truth.

    GOD will has conquered the enemy of our souls. Satan is defeated.


    September 12, 2011 at 5:31 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Atheist can't hate what they don't believe exists. That's just silly...plain and simple.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • Paddy


      Do you hate leprechauns? Garden Faeries? Genies?

      September 12, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Bill/Fl


      you just proved my point. A fool says in his heart there is no GOD. So, either you believe the lie Satan has told you or you are a fool all on your own.

      We still love you and will continue providing the truth and praying for you.

      I'm sure you friends will chime in soon. They never disappoint me.

      And they never surprised GOD with their disblief comments.

      Have a interesting time blogging here on the Belief blog.

      Not sure why, since you don't believe in anything. Kind of foolish on your part, but enjoy yourself. We get a real kick out of your nonsense.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • yousers

      @Bill – Couldn't agree more, spot on! Gotta laugh at atheiststeve who says they can't hate what they don't believe in, the opposite is abbundantly clear just reading comments on here. Atheists DO infact hate religion and everything Christian. Gotta love their hypocricy and condemnation while also being soooooooooo "open minded." LOL

      September 12, 2011 at 5:44 pm |
    • AtheistSteve


      All I proved was that your hate statement was bogus. None of your preaching makes a lick of difference to me. God, Satan...whatever is all just hogwash. You've been duped into believing in fantasy and for that you have my pity.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:48 pm |
    • Bill/Fl


      think may be you and ASteve could help each other out.

      You've heard the saying, two fools are as good as one.

      You need to revisit often, and share your beliefs more on the CNN BELIEF BLOG.

      Or go find the UNBELIEF BLOG on MSNBC.

      Hope you are laughing.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:54 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Further the statement that we atheists don't believe in anything. Where the heck do you get that? Just because we're not gullible enough to swallow the bunk you're spewing we can't have beliefs of our own? I believe in a great many things. I believe in the natural forces that formed galaxies, our solar system and planets. I believe in the evolutionary diversification of life on Earth. I believe in the potential for man to continue to adapt and flourish on this world and into the cosmos. But most of all I believe this is the only shot I have at being alive and I'm not going to waste a moment of it worried about where you think I'm headed because you're wrong.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:01 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      @Bill: AtheistSteve needs no-one to help him out and he's not the fool. At least what he believes in can be backed with evidence. You are the fool for accepting something without evidence.
      As for your thinking that we hate god...hard to hate something we don't accept to exist.
      You can threaten us all you wish with your garbage of suffering but it means nothing when you have nothing to back you...there is no evidence for what you call heaven and hell. No-one has ever come back from the dead to give us verifiable evidence to that fact.
      We believe that science provides answers; we believe that evolution is true; we believe in the evidence as it is set forth. We live amazing lives and are quite happy.
      You need to stop attacking us for what we don't believe in and instead accept that regardless of belief, we are all human...you are no better than anyone else and given that you seem to think you are due to your belief in an unknown makes you an egotistical maniac. You are not going to win an argument with any Atheist on here, we have already determined that your god makes no sense and if he did exist, he is just a monster that needs to be punished for his crimes against humanity.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:06 pm |
    • Bill/Fl


      Let me understand. If I follow your beliefs, heres what I conclude:

      Take all the single pieces of a jumbo jet 747 lay them out on the ground, without a blue print or designer, pick them up )somehow all at once), throw them in the air and

      A fully assemblied jet will start flying all on it's own.


      And You think we are the fools for believing in a divine creator, who holds your eternity in His hands.

      Your belief system is outrageous. Simplely amazing.

      I give you credit. You can stop posting now. We are all converting to your belief system

      so, do we call you god now (little g)?

      September 12, 2011 at 6:15 pm |
    • The Finisher

      When a believer is blinded by his delusion, not even their own loved ones can get through to them.
      Their eyes no longer see, their ears no longer hear.
      One can always hope for a burst blood vessel or heart attack, though. Severe dementia is often the result of religion.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:28 pm |
    • observer

      Theist- Just to expound to you a Joyful heart is a heart that chooses to be merry in the Lord, worshipping him with in its actions and deeds.

      A joyful heart does not mean making 'irreverential 'comments about the son of God.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:34 pm |
    • A Theist

      @Observer We were making jokes about believers and the way they practice Communion–definitely joke worthy material there!–more than making fun of Communion itself. It wasn't done out of irreverence, but playful fun. I'm going to say this, and it might make you upset, but as a human, this was inevitably a fact: Jesus pooped. He was fully human and fully God, and I can almost promise you that He also had fun and laughed while here on earth.

      Ecclesiastes 3:4 (ESV)
      4a time to weep, and a time to laugh;a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

      September 12, 2011 at 6:43 pm |
    • *frank*

      I dunno, we can credit Jesus with many excellent qualities, but a sense of humor???

      September 12, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • A Theist

      @frank It's not direcly supported Biblically, but the guy was a human after all. Plus, based on some of the less significant miracles Christ performed, I could easily see a little humor inserted there. I'm not saying Jesus was some kind of Clown or didn't take His ministry seriously, but come on people, one of the huge points of His message was love. If you believe that Christ was truly the Son of God and that God is real, then all it takes is a look at some of the crazy animals God made–or evolved into, depending on what you believe about that–and you can tell He's got a sense of humor.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:53 pm |
    • Hmmm

      A thiest....I am sure your college courses have started why are you spending your time here, wasting your money on your education?

      September 12, 2011 at 6:57 pm |
    • A Theist

      @Hmmmm Boy, I guess you don't know how the quarter system works. Give it another week and then I can leave you in your ignorance for weeks at a time! 😉

      September 12, 2011 at 6:59 pm |
    • Charles

      " Give it another week and then I can leave you in your ignorance for weeks at a time!" ~ So those that don't think or believe as you do is considered ignorant? Hmmm statement doesn't fit the definition of ignorance so why are you using it in your statement, probably because your ego is getting the best of you.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:06 pm |
    • A Theist

      No Charles, Hmmm has as_serted before that I've been on this site before, under some other name. The "ignorace" I refer to has nothing to do with whether or not someone believes what I do. It has to do with an unwillingness to hear another's thoughts on the manner. It also has to do with making quite faulty as_sumptions.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm |
    • A Theist

      *matter, not manner

      September 12, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • The Finisher

      When a believer is blinded by his delusion, not even their own loved ones can get through to them.
      Their eyes no longer see, their ears no longer hear.
      No matter what you write, they will refuse to listen to it, being full of themselves and the buzzing noise of their "god".

      September 12, 2011 at 7:20 pm |
    • Cool

      "It has to do with an unwillingness to hear another's thoughts on the manner"

      Cool – then christians like heaven sent, prizm and others like them on here are then ignorant too based on that definition.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:21 pm |
    • Peter

      "It also has to do with making quite faulty as_sumptions."

      Like you have done to others on this forum, so you're ignorant too. Good to know.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
    • A Theist

      @Cool ...Well.... aren't they? It sounds to me like a lot of things they say are pretty ignorant.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
    • Cool

      "@Cool ...Well.... aren't they? It sounds to me like a lot of things they say are pretty ignorant."

      uh- oh...someone is going to piss off the fundamentalist now....duck....

      September 12, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • A Theist

      Peter, when have I made a faulty as_sumption about someone on this forum?

      September 12, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Love the whole god/satan dichotomy. If I don't believe in your one imaginary friend, why should I believe in his imaginary enemy?

      September 12, 2011 at 8:50 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Having a crisis of faith, Bill?

      September 12, 2011 at 9:32 pm |
    • HotAirAce


      Your 747 example is "goofy" (to be kind). The low probability of one, or more, individuals successfully assembling a 747 from inanimate parts without instructions has nothing to do with the evolution of living organisms.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:52 pm |
    • Free

      If you roll your eyes at the adoration teenage girls have for Edward and Jacob from the Twilight series are you doing so at the girls, or at a real vampire and a werewolf living in Washington State?

      September 12, 2011 at 11:54 pm |
  19. herbert juarez

    Science has been blessed by Gods wisdom and many advances have been made.The medical field has been especially blessed in the area of organ transplant.There are facilities where almost any part of the body can be exchanged.Cousin pedro has always been a little slow,it was his hearts desire to be smarter.One day he discovered a brain transplant hospital, so he immediately went in for a consultation.Various brains and prices were offered to him,for example he was offered Christian brains at $5.00/lb.,Mormon brains at $75.00/lb,Muslim brains at $80.00/lb,Republican brains at $250.00/ lb and atheist brains at $1000.00/lb.Having little money pedro chose to go with Christian brains .The operation was a huge success!
    Later as he was paying his bill pedro asked , now that he was smarter,why was there such a difference in the price of brains.Why for example did atheist brains cost the most?The attendant told him "Did you ever stop to realize how many atheists it takes to get a pound of brains?"

    September 12, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Herbert Juarez

      Ahhh... -Herbert !!! Again, with the truly awful jokes... that make me chuckle ! LOL 😀


      September 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
    • J.W

      If I had a dollar for every brain you didnt have, I would have one dollar.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Tell the truth now jw ,if you had a dollar you'd be at McDonalds trying to use it and your opinion to get something off the dollar menu.God bless

      September 12, 2011 at 5:27 pm |
    • A Theist

      J.W My <3 ... it is yours for that reference..... 8)

      September 12, 2011 at 5:28 pm |
    • J.W

      You could not be more wrong herbert. I would go to taco bell.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Herbert, J.W., and A Theist

      LOL...!!! I somehow ended up in the middle of the 'Christian Comedy' thread ! I love it ! 😀

      Peace to all of you...

      September 12, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • J.W

      Wow A Theist you actually know where I heard that from? LOL

      September 12, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • veritas

      That was funny..LOL

      September 12, 2011 at 5:35 pm |
    • A Theist

      J.W Of course I do! Born and raised on the stuff. 😀

      I also know why you wouldn't go to McDonald's. You once worked as a frycook there and while cooking one day..... YOU FORGOT THE PICKLES!!!

      September 12, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • J.W

      We are just showing how much fun it can be to be Christian Peace. All the atheists are reading their science books while the Christians are partying drinking Jesus's blood.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
    • J.W

      LOL I remember the joke from spongebob squarepants. Actually I worked at taco bell but I still like to eat there.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      If by "Jesus's blood" you mean wine.. then consider me a vampire.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:41 pm |
    • observer

      JW- some of your remarks are off the cuff- especially when you claim that you are a Christian?? If you aren't that is ok just say so.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:43 pm |
    • A Theist

      @J.W The Jesus's blood joke... surely you weren't also making a Family Guy reference!! 😀 Well, that's what I gathered anyway :P. Haha you worked at Taco Bell? I'm sorry to hear that (having also suffered the inhumanity of the service industry–a coffee shop no less!–back in HIgh School).

      September 12, 2011 at 5:44 pm |
    • J.W

      I am a Christian. I do not see why I can't have a sense of humor. It is just like how black people make jokes about other black people. And A Theist I should point out that it was about 15 years ago that I worked at Taco Bell lol.

      September 12, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • A Theist

      I think any Christian that doesn't have a sense of humor is seriously lacking in the belief factor, among other things. The only "serious Christians" I've ever met I don't even consider to be real Christians–largely because of what they believe in, but the lack of humor definitely resonates on me too.

      @J.W I'm starting to think that I may be one of the youngest people on this site.... 😛

      September 12, 2011 at 5:53 pm |
    • J.W

      Yeah A Theist Jesus wants us all to be happy I think. We are supposed to drink and be merry. How old are you? I am in my early 30's

      September 12, 2011 at 5:58 pm |
    • observer

      God is to be reverenced.

      The partaking of the Communion is a very Sacred act.

      The pain that Christ suffered on the Cross for the sins of mortals is not something to be joked about.

      If you have not learnt that as a Christian already as to why Christ had to endure so much suffering and the pain on the Cross, read those passages in the Bible.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:02 pm |
    • A Theist

      Well I'm definitely at least a decade younger... at the ripe age of twenty!

      @observer I definitely think God deserves reverence, but with joy comes laughter, and God also wishes us to be joyous when it is appropriate. Take your eyes off the cross and fix them on the Resurrection! (Joy is a fruit of the spirit after all).

      September 12, 2011 at 6:05 pm |
    • observer

      God is to be reverenced and worshipped not joked about.

      Just don't make offensive off the cuff remarks about God claiming to be a Christian.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:13 pm |
    • The Finisher

      Oh, my! Another humorless Christian who hates happiness and joy because this is supposed to be a vale of tears where suffering polishes the soul before going to an unhappy death over an unhappy life.
      Why wait? Kill yourself now and save some time!
      Humor is of the Devil!!!!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha!

      September 12, 2011 at 6:18 pm |
    • A Theist

      Psalms 126:

      1When the Lord brought back the captives toa Zion,

      we were like men who dreamed.b

      2Our mouths were filled with laughter,

      our tongues with songs of joy.

      Then it was said among the nations,

      “The Lord has done great things for them.”

      3The Lord has done great things for us,

      and we are filled with joy.

      4Restore our fortunes,c O Lord,

      like streams in the Negev.

      5Those who sow in tears

      will reap with songs of joy.

      6He who goes out weeping,

      carrying seed to sow,

      will return with songs of joy,

      carrying sheaves with him.

      Proverbs 17:22 A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.

      Job 8:21 He will yet fill your mouth with laughter, and your lips with shouting.

      Psalm 32:11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous, and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

      Need I go on?

      September 12, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • look

      the bandicoots are out with what is their version of the humor!

      Enjoy while it lasts!!!!!

      September 12, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • observer


      A Joyful heart is a heart that chooses to be merry in the Lord, worshipping him by its actions and deeds.

      A joyful heart does not mean making 'irreverential 'comments about the son of God

      September 12, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • A Theist

      @Observer We were making jokes about believers and the way they practice Communion–definitely joke worthy material there!–more than making fun of Communion itself (though you have to admit the practice is an interesting one!). It wasn't done out of irreverence, but playful fun. I'm going to say this, and it might make you upset, but as a human, this was inevitably a fact: Jesus pooped. He was fully human and fully God, and I can almost promise you that He also had fun and laughed while here on earth.

      Ecclesiastes 3:4 (ESV)
      4a time to weep, and a time to laugh;a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

      September 12, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • observer

      Again the point is,

      God is to be 'Worshipped and Reverenced'.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • A Theist

      @observer I've given you a plethora of Biblical support and Scripture, and you just keep retorting with Christianese and your personally trained dogma. "Worship" means literally to be giving God His worth, or showing how worthy He is. David did this by dancing almost fully butt-naked in the streets, overcome with Joy. An outpouring of happiness and Reverence for God's love will inevitably lead to laughter.

      September 12, 2011 at 6:57 pm |
    • observer

      Lets be clear here-'God is to be worshipped and reverenced'

      The scriptures you have quoted has no contexual reference to our topic of discussion.

      So lets repeat this together till we get it.

      'God is to be worshipped and reverenced'

      September 12, 2011 at 7:04 pm |
    • Shari

      Observer from the posts Theists believes their a god on these blogs, can't you tell their full of themselves? Their ego won't get your point.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:09 pm |
    • A Theist

      @observer The verses I included have no relevance to what you're trying to say, which is by cracking jokes about Christians and informing you that Jesus had bolidy functions, I am somehow being irreverent to God. I'm telling you that such a claim is unsubstantiated by scripture. 'God is to be worshipped and reverenced'–I believe it, and that's why I enjoy my God-given sense of humor and worship Him through it.

      I can throw you a bunch of verses about reverence and worship too, if you'd like.

      I do like the insistence for repeti_tion though, it reminds me of a certain dog that belonged to one Pavlov.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:11 pm |
    • LuAnn

      Jesus pooped huh? Wow...good to know. I wonder if he ever did the pull the finger and fart joke too. Isn't it amazing how creative and imaginative human being with this subject. We make stuff up as we go along. So what do you think they used for TP back then....pages from the various rough drafts of the Bible. 😉

      September 12, 2011 at 7:19 pm |
    • A Theist

      Right Shari, my ego is so inflated that I will never become the mindless and emotionless goldfish observer wants me to be! Woes me!

      September 12, 2011 at 7:19 pm |
    • A Theist

      LuAnn Are you saying I'm "making it up" that Jesus pooped? He was fully human, that was my point. He ate and slept and did all the other things human beings do. You could tell me that laughter was conveniently left out of the picture, but I think you'd need a lot more evidence on your side than mine to back that claim up.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:22 pm |
    • A Theist

      And they didn't have TP back then... in fact, they often used their left hand.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • *frank*

      @A Theist
      "David did this by dancing almost fully butt-naked in the streets, overcome with Joy. An outpouring of happiness and Reverence for God's love will inevitably lead to laughter."
      I think the good king might have snuck a sip or two of the cooking sherry in the cupboard that day.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • LuAnn

      "And they didn't have TP back then... in fact, they often used their left hand"

      Not all the time....

      September 12, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • A Theist

      Now now frank, it's irreverant to joke about David ;). I'm certain most people in the streets were wondering the exact same thing actually. That's the power of Joy in God! 😀

      September 12, 2011 at 7:28 pm |
    • A Theist

      @LuAnn "Not all the time..." That's sort of what "often" means... I guess I'm a little confused, what are you getting at?

      September 12, 2011 at 7:30 pm |
    • fred

      A theist
      The joke went from herbert that funny to a direction that would be considered an offense to a Holy God. The base test line is "does this gorify a Hold God". The answer is herbert gets a pass while some others hid a personal slap on Christs cheek in the shadows.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:41 pm |
    • fred

      Well based on my last spelling and gramatical flop where do I send my $5 ?

      September 12, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Rollo

      Fred being herbert, of course. Just a young kid trying to bluster his way into a conversation with adults and needing to change his name to keep from having to admit he is wrong.

      September 12, 2011 at 7:51 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Herbie old pal, how's it going with your proof that your virgin Mary wasn't an adulterous harlot selling herself at every opportunity?

      September 12, 2011 at 8:17 pm |
    • Cuts both ways

      hey hot air-Why do you talk in such demeaning manner about your own family members in public? Has anyone taught you how to be civil or polite in public-mummy/daddy???

      September 12, 2011 at 9:54 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      Sorry, who do you think I demeaned?

      September 12, 2011 at 9:57 pm |
    • time after time

      @CBW-r u serious hot air talkin about his momma like that in public? disgusting pig.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:57 pm |
    • Al

      "The answer is herbert gets a pass while some others hid a personal slap on Christs cheek in the shadows."

      I hear it isn't a healthy habit to make a joke about Kim Jong-il in North Korea either. Those tyrants have inflated, yet delicate egos, eh?

      September 13, 2011 at 12:02 am |
    • J.W

      My joke was just fine. It was not disrespectful at all.

      September 13, 2011 at 10:15 am |
    • observer

      JW- repeat this to yourself till you get it right

      God Almighty is to be Worshipped and Reverenced.

      September 13, 2011 at 8:57 pm |
  20. bring it on

    Hey CNN,

    any reason why you decided to post the evolution article on the Science blog and not simaltaneously on the Belief blog?????

    September 12, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
    • What

      Are you saying they left us out with crap like that temple article and that ground zero mosque??????

      So uncoooooooooooooool!

      September 12, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Science is where it belongs. Evolution is not a "belief".

      September 12, 2011 at 9:00 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Right on,guest, evolution is no more than a very lame theory.God bless

      September 12, 2011 at 9:06 pm |
    • Sid

      spineless coward herbie, your religion isn't even a theory.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:14 pm |
    • Sid

      Enough with the "god bless" already, spineless herbie. Your sky fairy could kiss my ass, but your fairy doesn't exist.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • AGuest9

      I'll take a well-researched scientific theory over a Bronze Age fairy tale, any day.

      September 12, 2011 at 9:43 pm |
    • Al

      herbert juarez
      As far as theories go it doesn't get any lamer than "And here, God created a miracle!"

      September 13, 2011 at 12:05 am |
    • herbert juarez

      We are all agreed then God exists and has given us the gift of salvation in His Son Jesus and the Holy Bible by which we may know Him!God bless

      September 13, 2011 at 5:24 am |
    • Chaim

      herbert, you aren't fooling anyone. Quit acting like a little kid even if you are a little kid. We don't mind you posting if you are willing to be reasonable about what you are saying. k?

      September 13, 2011 at 5:48 am |
    • AGuest9

      herbie , "We are all agreed", would be all of your schizoid personalities, I am guessing.

      September 13, 2011 at 11:46 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.