September 13th, 2011
07:22 AM ET

Sex abuse victims ask International Criminal Court to prosecute pope

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN

(CNN) - Victims of abuse by Catholic priests asked the International Criminal Court to charge Pope Benedict XVI and other top Vatican officials with crimes against humanity, a victims' group announced Tuesday.

The pope and other church leaders "tolerate and enable the systematic and widespread concealing of rape and child sex crimes throughout the world," the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests and the Center for Constitutional Rights said in a joint statement.

They filed more than 20,000 pages of documents with the international court in the Netherlands to support their charges, they said.

Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi told CNN he was aware of the filing but had no comment.

The International Criminal Court did not immediately respond to a CNN question about whether it believed it had jurisdiction to prosecute the pope.

But Barbara Dorris, the president of SNAP, said it was the natural venue for the case.

"We are convinced this is the proper jurisdiction," she told CNN. "Who else can investigate violent crimes of a global magnitude? The ICC was created to deal with widespread systematic violent crimes against humanity."

The executive director of the International Bar Association, on the other hand, said it was unlikely the international court would find there was evidence of crimes against humanity.

"This requires a government policy, a plan, a widespread and systematic attack against a civilian population," Mark Ellis said.

"Not to suggest that victims were not harmed, but to meet the level of crimes against humanity you really have to show that there is a policy or a plan to initiate this," he said.

People can be held responsible for crimes if they knew - or should have known - they were occurring, Ellis said.

But the blind eye victims accuse the Catholic Church of turning to abuse of children by priests does not rise to the level of crimes against humanity, he suggested.

"They are crimes and they are serious, but within the jurisdiction of the ICC you have to be very specific. I don't see that you would be able to tick the boxes necessary" to bring a prosecution, he predicted.

That the defendant is the pope - along with three senior cardinals - also raises "jurisdictional hurdles," he said.

But simply filing the request will force the prosecutor to look at the case, Ellis said.

It "might be beneficial to the plaintiffs to force the court to respond," he said, saying the filing was more than just a publicity stunt.

"It raises the profile of these issues," he said.

In addition to the pope, SNAP and the CCF want prosecutions of Cardinal William Levada, the head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith; Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State; and Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Dean of the College of Cardinals.

- Newsdesk editor, The CNN Wire

Filed under: Catholic Church • Pope Benedict XVI • Sex abuse • Vatican

soundoff (1,157 Responses)
  1. Jon Gluvna


    September 15, 2011 at 9:35 pm |
  2. John


    September 15, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • .....

      GARBAGE ALERT – Don't bother viewing click the report abuse link to get rid of this TROLL!

      September 16, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
  3. Azathoth

    Prosecute the protector of child molestors!

    September 15, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
  4. ColoredMountains

    UN should be prosecuted for keeping the world's children continue to starve and preserving the slavery system. Every national government should be prosecuted for abusing its own people one way or another. Hindus should be prosecuted for the temple pro-sti-tutions. Muslims should be prosecuted for killing the infidels. Buddhists should be prosecuted for locking people in ignorance.

    September 15, 2011 at 7:35 am |
    • myweightinwords

      The UN does not keep the world's children starving. That is done by a complex matrix of causes, including governments that don't allow aid through and the wealthy who do not give enough, and war.

      If a government is abusing it's own people, those people need to rise up and do something about it and not rely on an outside source to prosecute.

      Temple prost.itution, if the prost.itute is a willing participant, is not something I would even put in the same list. S.ex has been and should be a sacred act, and if a person of faith wishes to dedicate the act to their gods it is no one's business but their own and the prost.itute involved.

      And murder should be prosecuted, no matter who commits it. I'm not even sure the Buddhist comment is worth answering.

      September 15, 2011 at 8:31 am |
    • chief

      re colored mountains.... pathetic attempt to change the subject..... LETS GET THE PED PRIESTS... we know who they are.... not some arbitrary BS by some catholic apologist

      September 15, 2011 at 11:25 am |
  5. officialmer

    @RightTurnClyde – cute how you wax over the part where the Jesuit priests first tortured, murdered and aided in the genoicide and culturecide of Amer-Indians. "To insure regular attendance and to prevent backsliding the Indians were induced to leave their desert or mountain hovels and make their homes with the missionaries. For those that came separate huts were erected in more or less regular order. Once baptized, the neophytes were not permitted to leave the mission for the purpose of going back to their pagan homes for any length of time without permission of the missionary." – Catholic encyclopedia. Notice the term HOVEL instead of home and how they were held against their will. The Jesuits were sooo innocent.

    September 14, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      I did not see the word Jesuit inside your quotation nor did I look it up and read any of it. I know that Jesuits were responsible for saving entire communities from extermination by Spanish and Portuguese soldiers (and I do know that much of the Inca and Mayan populations were destroyed by Conquistadores). I know that the Jesuits were GOOD to the Huron and the Iroquois Federation and to most of the places they served. .. so why do you (antagonists who hate Christianity) try to offer false information as evidence and why do you pretend your are without sin (i.e. perfect ones)? I do not see you as infallible (the pope either ) nor any flesh and blood human. I am aware that man has been cruel through the ages .. never more so than the 20th century but will probably be surpassed in THIS century - and probably by godless socialists who think they are perfect. But you could be wrong ..

      September 14, 2011 at 7:20 pm |
    • Terry

      The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a policy within their religion that protects pedophiles. The official policy is that the elders of the “Church” are supposed to handle the matter internally, without contacting the police. They do this so that shame will not be brought on the religion.

      It’s important that they keep a squeaky clean image to the public. Remember they believe they are the only “True” religion and all other Christian Churches are under the control of Satan. JW’s are not supposed to sue other JW’s or involve the police or courts. They believe these are Satan’s organizations and any crime by a JW should be dealt with internally.
      The elders will contact the police ONLY if they’re forced to by state law. Otherwise they are forced to follow official policy from headquarters. Some states require that “priests” or “pastors” report child abuse to the authorities. If they are not forced to report them than they cover it up.

      You might actually get a unreported pedophile knocking on your door next time they show up peddling pamphlets and selling “Eternal Life”.

      September 15, 2011 at 3:48 am |
    • chief

      re terry.... the JW's are in the wrong too.... but nothing you said makes them any different than the catholics.... its jiust more priests that are peds than they have in the JW's..... the catholics are exclusionists too....

      September 15, 2011 at 11:27 am |
  6. Reality

    Once again: To the nitty-gritty:

    Only for the new members of this blog:

    Why did today's pope, prelates, preachers and rabbis, so focused on society's se-xual sins, lose sight of clerical se-xual sins?

    Obviously ordination in any religion is not assurance of good behavior !!!!!

    Neither is coronation!!! e.g. Henry VIII, King David.

    Neither is marriage as 50% of those men convicted of pedophilia are married.

    Neither is being elected president of the USA!! e.g. Billy "I did not have se-x with that girl" Clinton, John "Marilyn Monroe" Kennedy"

    Neither is possessing super athletic skill!!! e.g. Tiger "I am so sorry for getting caught" Woods.

    Neither is being an atheist or pagan since pedophilia is present in all walks of life.

    If someone is guilty of a crime in this litany of "neithers" they should or should have been penalized as the law dictates to include jail terms for pedophiliacs (priests, rabbis, evangelicals, boy scout leaders, married men/women), divorce for adultery (Clinton, Kennedy, Woods), jail terms for obstruction of justice (Clinton, Cardinal Law, B16?) and the death penalty or life in prison for murder ("Kings David and Henry VIII).

    September 14, 2011 at 4:40 pm |
  7. officialmer

    Not systematic? They had a system in place to easily cover it up and move molesting priests around without blinking an eye as their policy. That is their worldwide policy. Ratzenberger AKA the Pope was instrumental in moving these priests when he wasn't the Pope and has not dealt with it stringently enough after becoming Pope.

    September 14, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
    • officialmer

      Ratzinger? R-A-T something.

      September 14, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
  8. Jack Paulden

    Screw the Pope! Nuke the Vatican!

    September 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • McJesus

      Nukes won't work. They have a magical invisible forcefield that radiates around the entire vatican. When the pope leaves, he uses his super-duper armored pope-mobile with bullet proof glass. Because apparently he doesn't have faith that god will protect him once he leaves his fortress of solitude.

      September 15, 2011 at 11:42 am |
  9. JJH

    I believe that these poor children deserve some justice...that no one, not even the Pope, should be exempt from being held accountable. I'm not sure they will be able to prove this was a 'policy' or 'systematic' or 'plan (ed)' to the ICC... it was more of a lack of appropriate response to what was happening in their congregation. These sick priests and the superiors that swept it under the rug should be prosecuted...BUT why prosecute religion in general... you choose what works for you...and I'll choose what works for me. The Bible for me...is a tool...a book of guideline that keeps you on the straight and narrow..it's just a tool...it's not a scientific FACT...nor does it need to be. That's why faith is for...to kinda fill in the blanks 🙂

    All the post about killing people..generalizations about people that are religious...and rants on what is and is not fact or fictious... are really not constructive...I feel like a mom here..but GROW UP... lol

    September 14, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      It has been clear for many months now that nobody is concerned about justice for "the children." Even a now infamous jury has taken that road. Certainly those who take lives of unborn cannot claim to have an interest in justice. And they cannot point accusing fingers. Still God will forgive them. People who are themselves felons cannot point fingers. People who are DUI. People who engage in acts of rage. People who assault and batter and harm others. You are not in a position to accuse and to judge. I do not not ever get a sense of justice on this blog. This blog is extremely malevolent. Very much so,

      September 14, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • Fred1

      Sounds good. Now get your god off of my money, out of my plege and away from science class

      September 15, 2011 at 11:32 am |
  10. R

    Religion: One assume certain things are true and certain things are master key for solutions of all problems, either in future or after death. Result: Terrorism, Wars, Child molestation, Suppression of woman...
    Rational Thinking: Constant study. Even if we assume something, keep questioning those assumption in order to know more. Result: Innovation, Technology, Happiness...

    September 14, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
  11. Josh

    Don't forget.

    Pope John Paul II wanted to take swift and strong measures against the Priests that molested children. It was Joseph Ratzinger (now known as Pope Benedict XVI) who vetoed those measures. Ratzinger, instead, claimed that it was up to God, and only God, to stop these Priests, if God didn't want the cute little boys to be "loved".

    September 14, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
  12. azezel

    Usually I am not a supporter of papal power. In this case because they are a soveriegn nation they have the right to recall their agents for trial. There is no reason to excuse or defend the fallen priests or to not punish accordingly even in a liberal society. Failing to do so may reduce the mandate rendered.

    September 14, 2011 at 12:17 pm |
  13. Fair

    ABSOLUTELY, that MAN should be held responsible and imprisoned! Just like any employer is held responsible for not doing background checks on their employees, and the employee molests a child or other! This MAN should not get away with this! Off with his head, I say!

    September 14, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
  14. Familliarwuf

    I believe that he should not be blamed for the sins that others have committed. Though the church has been built on a platform of controlling others. The fault lies on the system of giving power and control to people who have not earned or desrve it. It also takes away the inviduals' sense of wrong as they will be saved in the end if they are doing what they believe is right, wether it agrees with said religion completley or not. History has proven this for many religions. Time and time again.

    To have beliefs is Faith to have Religion is to control.

    September 14, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • The pope decieved and lied

      He orchestrated the cover ups.. One letter he sent to ALL bishops across the world stated to adhere to the secret, denials and use threats. He also stated to make sure the victim is not known until they have reached 10 years past adulthood. Why? Because statutes of limitations would now protect the pedo and the catholic church, victim denied again. Why it takes so long for the victim? The more violent he abuse, the longer the victim remains in a trauma. In other words the most violent pedophiles escape.

      September 14, 2011 at 11:57 am |
    • gerald

      You must have a link to such a letter. Please post.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:17 pm |
    • The pope decieved and lied

      Glad to..


      September 14, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
    • The pope decieved and lied

      and the 10 years of silence to escape law by statutes of limitations. The following sentence;

      'It must be noted that the criminal action on delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by a prescription of 10 years"

      Extinguish, means to make it invisible, to hide it as was explained by a cannon lawyer who left the church because of this filth. Why 10 years? Most statutes of limitation stops cases from reaching the courts past that time period..

      September 14, 2011 at 12:30 pm |
    • gerald

      That's nice. Any replies I make to the article you posted are deleted.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • Colin

      Gerald, I look at the article. It seems pretty convincing.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • gerald


      You might want to read a rebuttal. You totally twist the article.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • The pope decieved and lied

      No one deletes.. you need to watch your words is all..

      September 14, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • gerald


      In your unbiased view that is. With your great knowledge of Catholicism that is. Ha, ha. Why don't you read my rebuttal article.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:57 pm |
    • Colin

      Gerald, I read theletter and the rebuttal

      Does the letter not say, "Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret." If that is not instructing priests to shut up about it, what is?

      September 14, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • Josh

      In my eyes, all those in the Catholic Church who knew these children were being molested, but choose to look away rather than come to the aid of these children, IS JUST AS GUILTY. The sins of the perpetrators are also on the hands of those who failed to act.

      That certainly includes Ratzinger (aka Pope Benedict XVI).

      September 14, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
  15. Oops

    NY lawmakers protect the catholic church to preserve catholic votes. One bishop in western NY claimed how angry he was of those priests who abused children. Reality! He sodom-ized me at age 8, yes this very same bishop. In fact a New York senator held a dinner for this bishop and gave him a plaque thanking him for the wonderful work he had done. This senator knew this bishop is a pedo, yet told victims to get on with their lives. NY senators support pedos if they are priests.

    The senator also stopped a Bill that would expose over 1,000 pedophiles in NY state. His name? Senator Defransisco. The law he stopped -> http://childrescuebill.org/Yoursupport/YourSupport.htm

    September 14, 2011 at 11:49 am |
  16. PRISM 1234

    You name different groups citing the motives against Roman Catholic Church... You left out one that may shed more light on the problem then any other group you named.... I wrote some posts on this page and previous one. It may enlighten some to read them....

    September 14, 2011 at 11:18 am |
  17. saopaco

    I hope that the Catholic Church is made to pay massive recompensation to the victims of its wayward priests. Free up some of that Templar gold and admit that covering up for pedophile priests is a sin.

    September 14, 2011 at 11:14 am |
  18. In Memory Of Frank Garrett

    What kind of loving god would allow children to be abused, and why would anyone want to follow it?

    September 14, 2011 at 11:12 am |
    • PRISM 1234

      WHO abused the children?

      Do you know what Jesus Christ said about those who do such things?

      September 14, 2011 at 11:29 am |
    • In Memory Of Frank Garrett

      It's obvious WHO abused the children, so I'm not going to answer your question. In any case, your loving god allowed them to be abused in the first place. Tell me why.

      September 14, 2011 at 11:33 am |
    • Apple

      @In memory

      Man is sinful and this pain is caused by Man, it is Man who decided that he/she wanted to eat of that fruit to know Good and Evil, Life was perfect in that Garden of Eden until then.

      This world is NOT Heaven, we live with people who do good and people who do Evil.

      Let us not lose our focus on God he is the only one who can provide comfort in times of pain and suffering.

      May God provide you that comfort today!

      September 14, 2011 at 11:42 am |
    • PRISM 1234

      The answers you're looking for are found in the suffering of the Lamb of God who came to this valley of tears, sorrow and death caused by sin of our first parents, and every one of us who after them lived, live and yet will live in this world.
      This world is cursed, even the whole creation is cursed, and it groans with sighs of sorrow, yearning for the day when the One who came to redeem the fallen mankind returns to establish His kingdom of righteousness and justice, delivering it from curse man brought on it...
      What we see happening all around us is direct result of man's sin. There is a war in the spirit all around us, which those who don't know God are not aware of, though the effects of it are evident all around us.
      Satan is the prince of f this world, and his kingdom is in uproar because he himself knows that his apointed time is comming....
      When Jesus spoke about the little children, He prophesied of the things we're now talking about on this blog..... He said "Woe to the world because of offenses. For offenses MUST COME, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
      It is not ours to comprehend fully the depth of battle that's going on in the heavenlies, where the rulers and principalities are waging war, and we human beings for which Christ died are caught in crossfire, so to speak...
      But we are to take refuge in the One who will crush the Evil-one and purge the earth from all evil once and for all.

      To be angry, and in our bitterness to side with the enemy of our souls, whose aim is above all things to smear and discredit the character of God to us, it is practically spiritual suicide for those who take heed to his suggestions.... Because he, the enemy of our souls, knows that if he can make us to DISTRUST the character of God, and through this ACCEPT his demeaning thoughts about God , devaluing, degrading andthrowin mud at His character... if he can make us believe, even confess that He is unjust, and evil, THEN, he, the enemy of our souls has achieved what his primary aim was: TO SEPERATE US FROM GOD, WHO IS OUR ONLY HOPE AND OUR ONLY WAY OF EXCAPE THE GRIP OF THE EVIL ONE WHO CAME TO KILL, STEAL AND DESTROY, AND FINALY SEPERATE US FROM GOD LOVED US AND SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM US, FOR ETERNITY.
      You may not like the answer I posted as reply to your post. But Jesus never promised us no sorrow and no pain and suffering in this world. What He did promise is tah He will never leave us, nor forsake us, and that in the midst of the darkness of this world He will be with us, to the end, and that nothing in this world can separate us from the love of God with which He loved us through Christ Jesus our Lord. If you have ever read the Scriptures of Book of Revelations last 3 chapters, and have not seen the blessed hope, and haven't felt the triumph and glory of final victory over the enemy, and blessed deliverance from sin, and everything that has brought into the world, if you can not see the cries of all the who were trodden down, opressed, victimized and dehumanized turn to joy of deliverance, then, friend, your bitterness has caused you to do the very thing what the enemy of your soul hs purposed for you: he has separated you from God who offers you hope, through trust in Him, with patience and steadfastness, looking only to Him who is the author and finisher of our destiny through faith in Him, trusting His character, that He who has begun the good work, and in His wisdom ordained all things, is able and will accomplish it in His due time, making us His precious jewels that display His mercy, His unending love, and His benevolent character through all ages of eternity.
      These ar the things you need to ponder i your heart, and not allow the enemy of your soul to separate you from God who knows your pain, because HE himself is no stranger to it, because of what He had to suffer in order to redeem us. I howl that these words will soften your heart, and not allow the pain that's in it to shut it closed to His voice, because He said, that Today, if you hear His voice, harden NOT your heart" because if you do, there is so much more to come that He would reveal to you with time, if you do not close your heart.

      September 14, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      InMemory, I apologise for quite few misspellings in my post. I hope you can still get the meaning of it in it's entirety in spite of them
      God bless and keep you!

      September 14, 2011 at 1:49 pm |
    • In Memory Of Frank Garrett

      So you're saying your god is not really loving? Thought so.

      September 14, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • officialmer

      God loves even the wackos who also have free will. God did not allow molestation to happen. The criminals chose to do it.

      September 14, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • In Memory Of Frank Garrett

      so your loving god just created the molesters, I see now.

      September 14, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • Info


      "God loves even the wackos who also have free will. God did not allow molestation to happen. The criminals chose to do it."

      that's great, according to you and prism up there God did not allow that to happen, well he did when he created molesters, knowing full well they would molest, God would know all possible ways to live and all the outcomes to any decision his creations would make, he is Omniscience making free will a fantasy, that's not something an Omnibenevolence God would do

      September 15, 2011 at 9:49 am |
    • PRISM 1234

      @info .
      You said "that's great, according to you and prism up there God did not allow that to happen, well he did when he created molesters, knowing full well they would molest, God would know all possible ways to live and all the outcomes to any decision his creations would make, he is Omniscience making free will a fantasy, that's not something an Omnibenevolent God would do"

      Oh, wouldn't He?!
      The world God created WAS PERFECT. Yes He did know what will happen, and He knew what Satan will do and what man will do, but He also knew that the glory to follow after the battle is over is much more su-rpassing then anything we humans can ever fa-thom with our own understandings. There is a glimp-se into the purpose and the meaning here, where it talks about Christ's sufferings:
      "....looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, who for THE YOY that was set before Him ENDURED the cross, DES-PISING the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him that ENDURED such co-ntradi-ct-ion of sinners against Himself, lest you be wearied and faint in your minds..."

      We are human, we don't comprehend the con-cept of eternity, we don't understand in our own selves anything more then what we have in our natural senses, and what our limited intellect allows us to understand. But God has ETERNITY in His view...
      But for a man to set himself out to judge God, it is a dangerous ground to tread on, friend!
      You, and those who say the same as you do, can remain in your at-ti-tude, and it may give your some satisfaction to blame God and debase His character. But you are playing right into Satan's hands, and the longer you stay in this state of being, the more your heart and your conscience will harden. But you WILL STILL end up standing before your Maker, and He will be YOUR Judge.
      You will have your say and give reasons you rebelled. But you won't have any excuses why you didn't accept God's' offer of mercy to you in His Son, without whom you will have no covering for your sins, and all your own righteousness will be as dir-ty ra-gs before Him...
      That's where you are today, friend, in you own righteousness, blaming God , instead comming humbly to Him, waiting and trusting, no matter how things look outwardly...... That's what God requires of those who come to Him. But you have accepted the lie of the enemy of your soul. So, don't say, it's God's fault if He gave you the choice.

      September 15, 2011 at 11:06 am |
    • Info

      @PRISM 1234

      "The world God created WAS PERFECT. Yes He did know what will happen, and He knew what Satan will do and what man will do"

      God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Like we agreed, He does know what will happen, and He knows what Satan does and what man does before they will do it, He created them all and knows everything that will do. God cannot give you a choice if he already knows the outcome. Are you so naive to think he patiently waited and allowed other religions and Gods to from and grow and for his children to believe those religions and Gods before believing in him? Not to mention a omnibenevolent God created a place to punish those who don't believe or accept him as the one true God?

      If this is true he knows what Satan does and cannot destroy Satan to save his children from his evil he is not omnipotent, if he creates these men and Satan do bad things then he is not omnibenevolent, if he knows what will happen and not do can;t do anything about it he is not omniscient, he is flawed, selfish, and egotistical , and more importantly not existent.

      If the world he created was perfect, there would be no Satan he would of been destroyed as soon as he attempted to rebel and no evil in the world, there would be no 38,000 different flavors of Christianity, not to mention Christianity would be the first and only religion ever in our existence, and we both know that is not the case. Evil still exists, the bible is written so ambiguous that it has spawned over 38,000 different forms of Christianity all believing in the same god yet contradict each other, that claim they know Gods wants, they are the true only faith, and even as bold to say only there flavor will go to heaven and the rest will burn in hell, Christianity was not the first religion, in fact many of it's main drivel is borrowed from previous religions, an all knowing God guiding an ambiguous book and borrowing from other religions? Does this really sound like a perfect world created?

      You can't blame something that doesn't exist, nor can you prove and negative.

      September 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Info, if that's what you chose to think, then that's OK! But all those things will be settled once and for all! Then we will know as we're known.... Till then, let God be true, and every man a liar!

      September 15, 2011 at 2:14 pm |
    • Info


      "But all those things will be settled once and for all! Then we will know as we're known.... Till then, let God be true, and every man a liar!"

      The Just wait and see argument has no merit or affect, It's just a lessor pascals wager.

      "But all those things will be settled once and for all! Then we will know as we're known.... Till then, let Zeus be true, and every man a liar!"

      "But all those things will be settled once and for all! Then we will know as we're known.... Till then, let Ra be true, and every man a liar!"

      "But all those things will be settled once and for all! Then we will know as we're known.... Till then, let Allah be true, and every man a liar!"

      with no proof of existence any of this outcomes are just as real as your way of thinking, there as equally as real as yours until proven otherwise according to your logic.

      September 15, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      My conclusion is : No further reply necessary!

      September 16, 2011 at 12:03 am |
    • In Memory Of Frank Garrett

      Sounds more like a typical self righteous theist reply to me, that is when they are confronted with any sort of logic and facts they turn to the nanna nanna boo boo! LALALALALALALA covered ear reply.

      September 16, 2011 at 9:45 am |
  19. Frank

    Check out the clergy abuse - BlackCollarCrimes.com

    September 14, 2011 at 11:11 am |
  20. PopeJon


    read up on the history of the christian American Indian genocide that lasted well into the 20th century and then get back to me on how everyone else has blood on their hands but the christians... I love how christians re-write history to make everyone else look like the bad guys and christians have never done any wrong.... Christians live in the biggest glass house humans have ever seen.

    September 14, 2011 at 10:56 am |
    • gerald


      Not sure who you are referring to on this. Many protestants had a belief that indians had no souls and therefore could be killed. Catholic theology however did not take this view and so sent many missionaries over to convert them to Christianity. Catholicism certainly admits that all men are sinners in need of a savior and that the Church is more a hospital for sinners than a hotel for saints. That is what our sacrament of confession is all about. I have no problem admitting that many priests have molested children (though as a percentage of preists it is a small percentage). I think your perception of Catholic Christianity is quite flawed.

      September 14, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
    • PopeJon

      Not flawed at all. RightTurnClyde had clearly stated that genocide is strictly in the court of all socialists and atheists. Its all their fault and are the only ones who have ever committed genocide. I'm just lumping all Christians into one boat just like most Christians lump Muslims into one boat. I know many a catholic that thinks all Muslims want to destroy all Christianity and the free world. So if Christians are to generalize then so will I....

      I'm glad you have no problem admitting that some catholic priests have gone bad and I hope you have no problems admitting the hire ups that cover up (including the pope) are wrong and just as guilty. Many Catholics posting here are in 100% complete denial...

      September 14, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      I said nothing about Christians and indigenous Americans .. but since you bring it up MANY Jesuits were tortured and murdered by indigenous Americans but those who were not went on teaching the indigenous Americans (forgave them) and established 45 or more colleges in N. America and 4 major medical centers. That's turning the other cheek wouldn't you say? Mother Seton and her sisters gave to the very poor only for the purpose of giving. The Sisters of St. Joseph established hospitals for children and have given miraculous healing to thousands of children at no cost .. just so they would be healed. Roman Catholic colleges have graduated tens of thousands of professionals to serve communities all over the N. America and Europe. (Doctors, dentists, teachers, engineers, business managers, play writes, authors, community developers .. people who are good ). Throw in protestant colleges and hospits .. Wheaton, BYU, Passavant-Memorial, Shriners .. Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran .. and then tell me how murderous the Christians have been. Sory Charlie .. your stuff is incorrect propaganda. The facts are the truth.

      September 14, 2011 at 4:15 pm |
    • RightTurnClyde

      So far as genocide is concerned .. tell me that the socialist – communists (including Mao and Stalin) are not responsible for them millions I referred to .. not responsible for Katyn, for Greece, for Yugoslavia, for Pol Pot Kmer Rouge, for places I cited. Tell me that Mao did not lead the long March and did not purge 70 million who opposed him. You cannot tell me that. You cannot tell Alexander Solzhenitsyn he was not in a Gulag. We know .. we have read the facts. We even saw it on TV. I have been Meligalas and seen the ditch. Your propaganda does not stand in the face of facts

      September 14, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.