Mideast action at U.N. casts spotlight on Christian Zionism
Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry says his Christianity commands him to support Israel.
September 23rd, 2011
08:12 AM ET

Mideast action at U.N. casts spotlight on Christian Zionism

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - As the Palestinians push for statehood recognition this week at the United Nations, perhaps no group has spoken out more against the gambit - or has been more outspokenly supportive of Israel - than Christian Zionists.

"As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel," Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry said in New York on Tuesday, after delivering a speech blaming the U.N. and President Barack Obama for the Palestinian statehood push.

A U.S.-based group called Christians United for Israel, meanwhile, this week organized a campaign of more than 45,000 e-mails of support to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"As you stand before the representatives of so many hostile nations," the e-mails said, "we want you to know that you are not alone!"

The Christian Zionist drumbeat against the Palestinian statehood push at the U.N. has grown so loud that some prominent Christians penned an "Open Letter to America's Christian Zionists," arguing that the movement is damaging prospects for Mideast peace.

While it's clear that they are becoming increasingly importantly players in the global debate over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, what is less clear to many Americans is exactly who Christian Zionists are and what they believe.

Even many American and Israeli Jews, who would presumably welcome a group that emphatically supports Jews and the Jewish state - some Christian Zionists go so far as to celebrate Jewish holidays and to make repeatedly trips to Israel - are uneasy about Christian Zionist support.

Some Jews wonder whether evangelicals should be embraced as allies at a time of growing Israeli isolation or shunned as covert proselytizers interested in the Jewish state only for its perceived role in provoking Jesus' second coming.

Some prominent Christian Zionists promote the idea that the Jews' return to Israel, which became a Jewish state in 1948, is a sign of the fast-approaching Rapture, when the righteous will ascend to heaven while others are left behind.

The Rapture, many evangelicals believe, will usher in an apocalyptic period that will culminate in Jesus' return. And some Christians believe that keeping Israel in Jewish hands will help expedite that end-times scenario.

These Christians, called dispensationalists because they believe history is divided into different eras, or dispensations, "believe the Jews need to go back to the land of Israel before or immediately after the Rapture and create a commonwealth," said Yaakov Ariel, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina.

"This is not believed to be the great Davidic Kingdom that would be ushered in by Jesus' second coming," Ariel said of the Jewish state, "but it is a stepping stone in that direction. Dispensationalists believe they can help pave the way for that."

Activists, academics and religious believers disagree about how influential this kind of apocalyptic thinking is in factoring into Christian support for Israel.

A growing number of prominent Republican figures, including Perry, presidential candidate Michele Bachmann, and former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, have couched support for Israel in ways that place them in the Christian Zionism camp, say those who study the movement.

That includes David Brog, Executive Director of Christians United for Israel, the biggest American Christian Zionist group, who says that even Mitt Romney, a Mormon, can probably be described as a Christian Zionist.

At the same time, Brog argues that Christian support for Israel has little to do with a perceived role for the Jewish state in provoking Jesus' return.

"Many Christians think the birth of Israel is a sign that we may be nearing the second coming, but it has nothing to do with their support for Israel," he said. "These Christians know they can't change God's timetable."

"It's theologically impossible for Christians to change God's timetable," for the end times and for Jesus' second coming, he said.

Brog, who is Jewish, says most evangelical support is based on Abraham's words in the Old Testament that those who bless Israel will be blessed and that those who curse Israel will be cursed.

And Brog believes that Christian sympathy to the millennia-old struggles of Jews, from their harsh treatment under Roman rule to the Holocaust, has provoked a kind of Christian guilt that has resulted in support for certain Jewish causes.

"A strong theme in Christian Zionism is a sense of a debt of gratitude that has been ill repaid," says Brog, whose organization counts 750,000 members. "The Jewish people have given us the patriarchs and the first family of Mary and Joseph and every written word of the Bible, and how have we repaid that debt?"

"With the crusades and the Inquisition and Martin Luther, who wrote this horrific anti-Semitic book."

But the founder and National Chairman of Christians United for Israel, a Texas-based evangelist named John Hagee, has written Israel-centered books that hinge on apocalyptic themes, with titles like "Jerusalem Countdown" and "Final Dawn Over Jerusalem."

Ariel, the University of North Carolina professor, says that Hagee, along with Christian Right leaders like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell, have all framed support for Israel in the context of apocalyptic theology.

Christian Zionism first caught on in the United States around the turn of the 20th century, when fundamentalists reasserted the literal truth of the Bible in the face of new, science-inspired ways of reading Scripture.

Those fundamentalists - the forbears of today's evangelicals - began identifying the biblical Israel with the modern notion of a Jewish state.

Shalom Goldman, a research professor of religion at Duke University, says American Christian identification with Israel goes back even further, to America's founding, when the country was seen as a historical exception, a kind of modern-day Israel, or Zion.

"Israel is the metaphor by which America created itself," Goldman said. "So many American churches incorporate the word Zion, and it has to do with the self-concept of America."

Goldman argues that it's this broader historical and cultural identification with Israel that underlies Christian Zionism. He estimates that a more apocalyptic view of Israel explains the thinking of a small fraction of Christian Zionists.

"Right now, Christian Zionism is identified with the ideology of the end times but it's not an accurate identification," he said. "The idea is so sexy and sensational that it gets all the attention but it's a small segment of Christians."

Still, many Jews are queasy about evangelical support for Israel because they believe Christians have ulterior motives.

"There's an uneasiness in the community with evangelical support," said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League.

But Foxman said that he has made his peace with Christian Zionism. "As long as the support is not conditioned on American Jewish support for the conservative Christian political agenda or on us converting,," he said," they can be my guest."

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Christianity • Israel • Politics

soundoff (462 Responses)
  1. Muneef


    For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid [Ishmael], the other by a freewoman [Isaac]. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh [Ishmael]

    Bible = Genesis 17:18,19 “And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shall call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him”.

    Koran = 19:54 “Also mention in the Book [the story of] Ishmael: He was [strictly] true to what he promised, and he was a messenger [and] a prophet”.

    Bible = Genesis 16:12 “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him”.

    The Bible called Ishmael a wild man; the Koran called him messenger and a prophet.

    Sarah also received the blessing and the promise along with her husband; as it is written, “And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her [Isaac]: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her” (Genesis 17:16).

    Because Sarah was old and had no children,

    “Abraham said to God, Shall a child be born unto him that is a hundred years old? And shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael [the son of the slave Hagar] might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shall call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him” (Genesis 17:18,19)

    Sarah also received the blessing and the promise along with her husband; as it is written, “And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her [Isaac]: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her” (Genesis 17:16).


    These quoted lines were to prove that Ishmael was older than Isaac and therefore it was he who was to be sacrificed and was he who helped Abraham in rebuilding the worship house at Mecca...

    It as well proves why so much hatred is carried by those who considers us to be of a race and a religion of Slaves who's their father Ishmael was a result of Flesh taken place between the Prophet of GOD and a Slave woman and not by GOD inspiration...!? Insisting that Ishmael came by Flesh, they have made of him as Criminally Wild man...!?

    While the facts are clear that because Sarah was not able to give him a Child or Children...She Sarah has proposed to him to merry one of her maids to have his child...after that happened she has asked him to dispose of them where he had taken them to Mecca area and left them back there but all that was done as per inspirations of GOD to him...   

    Any way now it is obvious what would those Jews, Christians or Zionists think of us as Slaves and that they are the chosen people by GOD...!! Your religions and beliefs of the Bibles are based on Slavery and not as in Quran being Antislavery and Human Equality....!!? Tell me am Wrong....!      

    September 24, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      You asked to be told you are wrong?You are wrong !God bless

      September 24, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • Muneef

      herbert juarez.

      Haha. Now I know why you are being chased every where you go to write...
      Am sure you did not bother to read or understand a thing... 🙂

      September 24, 2011 at 7:35 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Well at least my post was understandable,but bottom line ,you are wrong mohammed was wrong and islam is wrong.Cannot be much plainer than that.You are following a false prophet ,sorry .God bless

      September 24, 2011 at 7:39 pm |
    • Muneef

      herbert juarez.

      Sorry you feel this way but you will never know who is right and who is wrong until that named date when we are gathered to witness where we were wrong or right...peace and GOD Bless and guide the lost one's...

      September 24, 2011 at 8:49 pm |
    • Chad

      Muneef, ask your self these two SIMPLE QUESTIONS:

      – If Israel unilaterally disarmed itself tomorrow, what would happen?
      – If every Palestinian disarmed themselves tomorrow, what would happen?

      Answer: If Israel disarmed, they would be annihilated in 24-48 hours, every last one of them. If Palestinians disarmed, nothing would happen, peace in the area.

      Israel is not the problem, end of story.

      September 24, 2011 at 9:16 pm |
    • Muneef

      Are you convinced? Well it is just the beginning of the story and not the end;

      Well known popular Arabic proverbs,
       -He who lives with the people for forty days becomes one of them.
      -To whom do you complain if your adversary is the judge?
      -Arrogance over the arrogant is modesty.
      -You reap what you sow.
      -The courageous might cower without a weapon.
      -The wound of words is worse than the wound of swords.
      -Two swords do not fit in one sheath.
      -A person who does not speak out against the wrong is a mute devil.
      -Evil in people does not go away when they get buried.
      -A little bit of evil is too much.
      -He beat me and cried, and went before me to complain.
      -Dwell among people for forty days. You will either become one of them or flee them.
      -an oppressor will have his day.
      -Fire will burn itself out if it did not find anything to burn.
      -No right is lost, as long as someone remains asking for it.
      -Every age, a new state and new men arise.
      -The house of a tyrant is a ruin.
      – If you oppress who is below you then you won't be safe from the punishment of who is above you.
      -He (God) puts his secrets in the weakest of his creation.
      -The people's lord is their servant.  

      September 24, 2011 at 9:56 pm |
    • Chad

      I see you didnt try to answer the question 🙂

      September 24, 2011 at 10:05 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      Oh my goodness Herbert again? He is the most illierate person that has access to a computer. Just ignore him. His Mommy is probably making him some cookies write now anyhoo. Maybe he is married to "Heavensent" Just wondering...

      Stupid is as stupid does.

      September 24, 2011 at 10:05 pm |
    • Kathleen Wagar

      Arabs would not know an iota of their early history if the Jews had not written about them in the Torah. If the Jews say it was Isaac who was almost sacrificed, then it is Isaac who was almost sacrificed. Thousands of years after the fact, Muslims want to give the Torah their own slant, but their version is not true nor the word of G-d.

      Couldn't find a place to comment on whether Jesus would think the Arab Palestinians worthy of their own state. He might if it was not smack dab in the middle of Israel. Jesus was angry that Greeks and Romans were affecting Jewish culture. He would have thought the same about Muslims. He would never have approved of Muslim beliefs which result in their killings of people to defend their honor and he would not have tolerated jihad.

      September 24, 2011 at 11:15 pm |
    • Reality

      And yet again we come to save Muneef and his sister and brother Muslims. Analogous programs for saving Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus are available upon request:

      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

      The First Five of the 77 Branches:

      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self- cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send her or him a copy and help save the world.

      September 24, 2011 at 11:51 pm |
    • .........

      Spam alert hit report abuse to all reality repeat garbage postings

      September 25, 2011 at 6:20 am |
    • herbert juarez

      I already know that islam is wrong, your whole Abrahamic argument is wrong and mohammed was as big a proven fraud as joseph smith. Put the koran on the shelf and step away from the unholy thing.God bless

      September 25, 2011 at 6:25 am |
    • Muneef

      What question? Was that a question? Obviously Israel is not looking for peace because peace would mean no more increase in land when their intentions are to take the land and the rule over the whole middle east from the rivers of the Nile to rivers of Iraq...! Who is fooling who!
      And maybe you can pass the word that lady's should first improve their skills in the kitchens first before taking for religion and politics...! You consider "Every thing else is false,every thing else is wrong,only you and yours is right without any investigation or compromise....! Well I know where will all that ignorance you show will lead the world to...!

      September 25, 2011 at 8:35 am |
    • Chad

      If you want to know who wants peace, ask yourself two SIMPLE QUESTIONS:

      – If Israel unilaterally disarmed itself tomorrow, what would happen?
      – If every Palestinian disarmed themselves tomorrow, what would happen?

      Answer: If Israel disarmed, they would be annihilated in 24-48 hours, every last one of them. If Palestinians disarmed, nothing would happen, peace in the area.

      Israel is not the problem, end of story.

      September 25, 2011 at 1:03 pm |
  2. Central Scrutinizer

    I don't disagree with you. Not sure where you are going with this though but that's cool. I like the "bubble" theory myself.

    September 24, 2011 at 2:45 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      Central Scrutinizer, "I like the "bubble" theory myself."

      I am yet undecided as to declaring a theory of the Beginning Times. Although, I am leaning towards the theory postulated by Greek Mythology which states, "Chaos did yawn and in Chaos yawning He gave brith to the Earth who was so named as Gaia and Chaos in yawning did also birth the elemental gods. 🙂

      September 24, 2011 at 3:39 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      I like it. Nice Richard. Signing Off.

      September 24, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
  3. kasnudl

    The fact is that Israel is the only country with freedom of religion in the Middle East and the only country where Christian population increases. There are already two dozen human rights free Arab states, where the ideology of the 7th century Arab peninsula destroys every civilsatory progress, so as a Christian I do support Israel, not so much for religious but for political and ethical reasons. austroamericanfriendship.wordpress.com

    September 24, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • Pastor Mike Palevo

      Kasnudi, you've got to be kidding me? If you witness in Israel, you'll be arrested! Plain and simple! It's not a Democracy! It's leans toward Socialism and Communism. They still consider Christians as sub-human. Get your head out of the sand! They hate Jesus, Mary, Christianity, New Testament, etc. These people are the biggest danger to Christianity, yet you have Christian Zionist sucking up to this anti-Christ spirit. They are way more dangerous to Christianity than islam will ever be!

      September 24, 2011 at 4:07 pm |
  4. Richard S Kaiser

    1. Of Fractal Cosmology does lay the fruits of complexity’s understanding and binds together many untaught verses of Gospel Scripture that many people plainly overlook due their inadvertency to consider them worthy to understand in forthrightedness. In GOD, are all things created and made manifest and held with an affirmation beyond many a person’s abilities for comprehensive attenuations. GOD’s Body is the material Cosmos of the Celestial and GOD’s Holy Spirit is the vastness of the Sea of Nothingness whereupon floats all mannerisms of immeasurable amounts of celestially made universes. Our universe is but one of perchance trillions or even much greater amounts. The Celestial Universes are GOD’s material Body.

    2. Not only is GOD ever building HIS Body and stretching HIS material Being outwardly upon Cosmology’s Sea of Nothingness, GOD allows and has given His Sons (Gods in their own righteousness sakes) their needs to build things accordingly with miniature universes we know of as being “cellular” in our nature of understanding Life‘s compositions. We, our bodies, are as cellular encapsulations wherein each cell of the body is but a miniature universe and our bodies are as but a singularized and miniaturized Cosmos but, as such, we are unlike the grander scale or shape of the ever being built, Celestial Cosmos, the Body of GOD that floats aimlessly upon the Sea of Celestial Nothingness.

    September 24, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      That is some very poetic, impossible to digest, yet fun to read stuff. You should start your own cult. I will come on pizza days.

      September 24, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      3. Fractal Cosmology declares that inwardly things are as a sameness upon outwardly things and are only differentiated by their size. The Prime example is that a single atomic-sized “nebula” is equal to, in shapeliness, upon that of an individual celestialized stellar nebula. There are two rather distinct branches of Fractal Cosmology. One branch is Celestial Cosmology. The other distinct branch is Cellular Cosmology. Fractal Cosmology is the Mother of these two branches of Cosmological variances for, without Fractal Cosmology, there could be nothing of materialization and there would be only a Sea of Nothingness.

      4. Therefore These three threads of Cosmological variations are the needed sprouts for things of material values to be and become spawned from the Sea of Nothingness which not only stretches itself outwardly around the Cosmos of Celestial Relativity but also inwardly does this Sea of Nothingness stretch itself around the Cosmos of Atomic Relativity. These voids of Nothingness are the Oceans and Seas and Rivers and Ponds and Streams and Creeks of the Holy Spirit and cannot be separated.

      5. Cellular Cosmology is a clustered and congruent makeup of atomized seismographic nebulas into being celled Life Formations. From the most simplest of Life being a single celled organism to the most complex cellularized formations of Life such as mankind are all containing a diversity of, and as, atomically established cellular organisms living for the most part in harmony together. Each cell is a differentiating complexity of uniformed divisionings amid and due the Inner Made Cosmos of Atomic Nebulas by which all Celestial-Based Life is so made and construed and in conglomerations thereof. Without the complexities of Celestial Opulence, Cellular Aggregates of Atomized Emulations would never occur or be manifested. GOD’s embodiments of Celestial Universes gives rise to Celestial-Based Cellular Life-Creations wherever possible upon Celestially Opulent places likened our Earthly Heaven‘s manifested Life Formations.

      September 24, 2011 at 3:43 pm |
    • Haime52

      Mostly a claptrap of meanlessness, devoid of real meaning.

      September 24, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      Fractals are math...plain and simple. For instance a Mandelbrot set is derived from the equation zn+1 = zn2 + c. Images of the Mandelbrot set display an elaborate boundary that reveals progressively ever-finer recursive detail at increasing magnifications. The fractal property of self-similarity applies to the whole set, and not just to its parts.
      Just like the natural logarithmic function y = Ln x describes the curve that a line follows or sags between two telephone poles, fractal self similarity is evident in nature. From the variance of size and pattern in the veins in a leaf, up to the leaf shape, up to the distribution of different leaves, up to the branches of the tree, up to the variation of trees in a forest. Fractals are everywhere, from creeks to coastlines and mounds to mountain ranges. Recurring pattern iterations of bigger and bigger scales makes sense when you think about it. Building up from small to larger and larger scales by repeating a pattern over and over is far simpler than entirely independent patterns for each level of magnitude. Nature is efficient that way. So if fractal similarity exists from the scale of the very small to the cosmically large why would we find this unusual or strange? It certainly is not indicative of a guiding hand.

      September 24, 2011 at 5:41 pm |
    • *frank*

      It looks like something divine is going on with fractals if you're crazy or on opium. Otherwise, not really....

      September 24, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
    • AtheistSteve


      Spot on Dude 🙂

      September 24, 2011 at 5:58 pm |
  5. Central Scrutinizer

    There is nothing that says the rules of physics have to be the way they are. They just are.

    Just as the religious believe that God “just is” and take it on faith.

    God is Science. Science is God.

    Those who pursue the truth through science work much harder to get closer to the true nature of God than those who rely only on ancient texts written to manipulate an ignorant population. Texts that can no longer be trusted anyway since they have been written and re-written so many times in so many languages for so many reasons.

    While I don’t believe personally that God is a “being” that is personally involved in our lives, my intuition tells me something can’t come from nothing.

    I think if there were a God in the traditional sense of the word, he would be proud of those of us who are actually looking for him and not hiding behind ancient books and “praying”.

    Don’t be frightened, join the hunt! We will I be gone soon anyway and no one ever said you have to give up your faith.

    But understand this, the Universe is a mystery. That mystery extends to your belief in God. Multiple Dimensions, string theory, black holes and many other exotic facts and theories are all very possible within the confines of the very science GOD created. If you are not interested in THAT, you are not very interested in God in my opinion.

    September 24, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Central. The holy spirit of Jesus was left on earth for all of us. Since, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega and can do all things, He would ensure all we need to know is in the Bible?


      September 24, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Central Scrutinizer,,, "But understand this, the Universe is a mystery"

      The "problem" many people including scientists have is the sound plausability that "our" universe is set upon the framework of an immeasurable to us amount of universes. People likened to your sentiments stating that, "the Universe is a mystery" are weakly assuming the Celestial Cosmos.

      September 24, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      @Heavensent – You are clueless.
      @Richard – Why do you I assume a think in terms of a celestial cosmos? And how would that change the mysterious nature of all things? Thank you for having a brain by the way.

      September 24, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      Central Scrutinizer wrote on Saturday, September 24, 2011 at 2:06 pm, "@Richard – Why do you I assume a think in terms of a celestial cosmos? And how would that change the mysterious nature of all things? Thank you for having a brain by the way."

      I take it CS that your question is, "Why do you, I assume, think in terms of a celestial cosmos?"

      CS, Our meanial and deafening "seance" regarding all that there is in Spatialness is but "our" universe is a tawdry explaination and I do so repudiate such small mindedness recognitions. Saying "Celestial Cosmos" does bring to light a much more immense Chasm of Universes that will never be apt to contemplate let alone view.

      To me, CS, I see this Celestial Cosmos having two main ingredients. The first ingredient is this Sea of Nothingness. The second ingredient is every Celestial Universe formed and those yet in formations of and the universes yet to be formed.

      September 24, 2011 at 2:34 pm |
    • Haime52

      Why do so many think that God, if He exists( I believe He does), should show Himself and prove His own existence? Did you ever think He may not wish to be analyzed? We humans would attempt that, you know we would. We would try to "figure" Him out, what is His power, how can WE harness it, how can we become like Him. Oops! Lucifer tried that!

      September 24, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      So you're saying God is afraid to reveal his true nature? Doesn't sound very "All powerful" to me.

      September 24, 2011 at 7:11 pm |
  6. Richard S Kaiser

    The very first rationalization you, me or anyone should ponder and socially "perpetuate" is the following verse,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

    Now that you and others are somewhat resolute and pondering about this world NOT being God's Kingdom, the following verse should be considered,,,,,

    Mat 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

    If this world is NOT the Godly Kingdom as many so aptly try to emulate it to be, yet is not, where then shall one look or seek to find the Kingdom of God? This next verse of scripture might guide your mind to a sublime yet construed rationalization,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    1Cr 3:9 “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.”

    Okay, we are a BUILDING right? But if we are a building where then is the Kingdom of God if we are but buildings? We are God’s “husbandry”? and also we are God’s “building” How so are such things possible? Alas one reads,,,,,,,,

    Luk 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside/within you."

    Are you all still with me? Might you comprehend my assertions that I try to plainly "spell out"? Get ready, for the following words of contemplation!

    We, as solitary bodies do hold in essence, ONE God inside each of us and this ONE God has a family of His own along with many subjects and servants to rule over. The "thriller" KEY to understand this is,,,,, "Each of a body's cells are but solitary cellularized universes much like our Celestial Universe is but one Celestial Universe among an immeasurable amount of Celestial Universes. Are you still with me? I would like you to now consider the following,,,,,,,,,,,,

    1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    How does one "bring to light the hidden things of darkness"? What exactly is meant by "hidden things of darkness"?

    Darkness exists in two plains of relativity, one being the Atomic Relativities of "Inner Space" and the other, the Celestial Relativities of "Outer Space". For without light one cannot peer into the microscopic things of darkened inner space and without gathering light via time thru a telescope one cannot see the very distant objects of darkened outer space things unseen by the naked eye.

    If you did read all my words so far, you are hopefully following what I wrote before coming to this point of my post.

    "Celestial Relativities of Cosmology" deals with the Fractal Cosmologies of Celestial things such as a star or planet or moon, etc etc. Atomic Relativities deals with the Cosmological makeup of Celestial things and also the Cellular compositions of Celestial Based Life in all its' forms and formations. For WITHOUT Fractal Cosmologies, the Celestial Cosmos nor the Cellular Cosmos of Life, there would be absolute NOTHINGNESS!

    GOD therefore. is the Awareness of the Celestial Cosmos and said Celestial Cosmos is GOD's body. The Gods who inhabit a one-to-a-customer Cellular Structured Life, live deeply seeded within the Cellular Universes and come the demise and/or death of a Celestial Based Life, does GOD re-unite with HIS Sons and Family members while we, being but a spiritually amassed awareness of mitigated Nothingness, come death, are granted upon judgment, our heavenly kingdom among the immeasurable Fractal heavens of this earth's Heavenly abodes. Who really knows, for, we could be spirited away to become Cellular Life upon a distant Celestial Planet far far away! Otherwise, each Fractal Cosmos of land mass’ "rings" are but Fractal heavens where within such deeply seediness of sub-atomic worlds of the atomic plains’ Sub-Celestial Cosmos is where we will live out many lifetimes into eons upon eons of Time Eternal. Death is never The End, but, only a New Beginning each and every time we die!

    Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

    Everlasting life and having it more abundantly are but two ways of stating that we will live and die and live and die forever more.

    September 24, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      Too many words. What happen to the oral tradition? I long for simpler times.

      September 24, 2011 at 1:16 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Central Scrutinizer, "Too many words. What happen to the oral tradition? I long for simpler times."

      Try reading a book or two so you might then be augmented to the complexities of thought provocations,,,,,,, 🙂

      September 24, 2011 at 1:55 pm |
  7. Reality

    Not much Jewish or Christian zionism left after reviewing the following:

    “New Torah For Modern Minds

    1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

    Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

    The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “

    2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

    The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.


    September 24, 2011 at 7:39 am |
    • .........

      spam alert hit report abuse to all reality copy paste posts

      September 24, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
  8. Ladervijd

    There is wondering if if, there is wondering when, and there is wondering how.

    Personally, i am still in a ditch, and there is no one else to look after my poor ill mother. So, in a few days i will likely be in Berlin, looking for a job to then pay off financial debts (which will probably take a few years), take on a mortgage (probably 20-40 years if i won't die way earlier than that), perhaps get married, and with a cave (or such) of my own perhaps continue where i left off if not too distracted by non-sense. Kind of boring, but well yeah; what else can i physically do abiding to some kind of laws and some kind of morality? i.e. being like a (non-existant) freak in an almost-free for all mirror cabinet ain't paying anything.

    September 24, 2011 at 6:46 am |
    • .........

      spam alert hit report abuse to all reality garbage

      September 24, 2011 at 5:21 pm |
  9. Bible Verses on Prayers #2

    Jesus said to His followers before His death and resurrection:
    “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father(God) except through Me. If you really know Me, you will know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him... Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? Believe Me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me... And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask Me for anything in My name, and I will do it." (John chapter 14)

    September 24, 2011 at 3:27 am |
    • Reality

      Hmmm, "I am the Truth........" i.e. John 14:6. This passage was not said by the historical Jesus but was wishful thinking and an embellishment by John to make Jesus more like the ancient and local gods of first century Palestine. Said passage is a single attestation found no where else in the NT making it historically unreliable. e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=210_Place_of_Life

      See also Professor Gerd Ludemann conclusions in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 535-340.

      September 24, 2011 at 7:48 am |
    • .........

      spam alert hit report abuse to all reality posts

      September 24, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
  10. Bible Verses on Prayers

    Jesus said to His followers before dying on the cross for the sin of mankind, "Very truly I tell you, My Father will give you whatever you ask in My name. Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
    In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father Himself loves you because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God." (John chapter 16)

    September 24, 2011 at 3:20 am |
    • Reality

      John 16: 33 is a single attestation found no where else in the NT making it historically unreliable. Most contemporary NT scholars have concluded that it was not uttered by Jesus. e.g.

      Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years: p. 551, "The historical yield is nil."

      Then there is this:

      Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.

      Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with John's gospel being mostly fiction.

      Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European/Utah white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!

      So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?

      September 24, 2011 at 8:06 am |
    • .........

      multiple spam posting alert hit report abuse to reality posts

      September 24, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
  11. Dear Jews

    Only the Evangelical Christians are on your side, Jews, rain and shine. We have no hidden motivations. We love you because of your Messiah Jesus and because we know you are forever special to our God. You haven't been faithful to God, but His covenant with you is eternal and cannot change.

    September 24, 2011 at 3:09 am |
    • JohnR

      Your motivation may not be hidden, but it is crazed.

      September 24, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • david

      Wood knocker's are under the deception of ancient Rome...Xtrans will struggle with their umbrella of self-deception based on the filthy lies of their originator the Roman Catholic Church.

      September 25, 2011 at 9:01 am |
  12. Muneef

    Another thing before I go...I thought you all voted for CHANGE ? OK, change took place in America and now changes are taking place in Five Arab Countries....! So why not to seeing changes in Israel? The I.P.M said you need two to dance the Tango ! Well ok then let them have their country recognized by the UN to become close to equal in order you can have your Tango dance partner...! We do really need a change there 50 years of my life gone and only hearing this conflict "it grew up with us within our "comic books", within our official education books,within our news,movies,plays...!
    Man give us a break and allow change to take place might it bring some thing better than this repeated stories as if we are playing a cracked disc repeating the same tune... Hmm now that I am relieved I may go for my prayers...peace.

    September 23, 2011 at 10:02 pm |
    • Petri Dish

      Nothing will change in that region. The stupidist people on the face of the Eartth. They deserve each other.

      September 23, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      Muneef, stop reading comics. Israel is the key to our planet's future. She is utmost important to God and to us. She may not be good or glorious now, but she will be all she meant to be once she trusts in Jesus her Messiah. Read the Bible, dear brother. Know whom you are praying to. You must pray in Jesus' name to be accepted by God.

      September 24, 2011 at 3:14 am |
    • Muneef

      The change will take place whether we like it or not against the will of transgressors...GOD never said the foreigners should come before the land origin owners.... I would rather follow the Gold trail if you want to stick to Silver...

      Say (O Prophet!): The evil and the good are not equal even though the excess and abundance of the evil may impress you. So, O people of understanding, be mindful of your duty to Allah that you may succeed." Al-Qur'an, 5:100

      “The two feet of the son of Adam [human being] will not move on the Day of Judgment in front of Allah until he is asked about five things: about his life, and how he spent it? And (more specifically) about his youth, what did he consume it in? And about his money, how did he earn it? And on what did he spend it? And how much did he act upon what he knew?” Hadith.

      September 24, 2011 at 7:03 am |
    • Muneef

      Still are you wondering why the oppressed are not happy with your doings....!?

      Islamists Carve Out Place in Libya Politics;

      Coptic Intellects in Egypt Reject US Religious Freedom Report;

      Read and Watch the Changes adjust you stopwatch....;

      September 24, 2011 at 7:21 am |
    • Muneef

      You are responsible for the arrogance and their feeling of being some Superiority as "Supreme Beings"..."GODS on Earth...!

      September 24, 2011 at 7:31 am |
    • Muneef

      You know what I think the Quran mentioning the infidels and those mentioned in it to be fought and wiped out are not the religious Christians nor the Religious Jews but I think the Quran was referring to "Those within Zionism"...they always been the transgressors and oppressors....! In the end "Jesus" will be coming for them to kill with the swines....while saving the rest,the true believers from "Jews,Christians,Muslims,++"...
      I see no other than that being a logical understanding..

      September 24, 2011 at 7:41 am |
    • Reality

      The logical understanding of Islam:

      Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The Sunni-Shiite global blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      September 24, 2011 at 11:55 pm |
    • Muneef

      Don't worry was not meaning you...relax....

      September 25, 2011 at 8:40 am |
  13. Fact

    "Longevity in Power" list:
    Islam – 1,300 years
    atheism – 70 years
    Sodom and Gomorrah – less than 25 years

    September 23, 2011 at 9:52 pm |
  14. Indonesian

    to much conspiracy minds in muslim interests. They always curious to others.
    Like old testament said
    Gen 16:11 And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because Jehovah hath heard thy affliction.
    Gen 16:12 And he shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren.
    Gen 16:13 And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her, Thou art a El-loh (Allah) – God that seeth: for she said, Have I even here looked after him that seeth me?

    So Islam Arabs are descendant of Ishmael, and Hebrews peoples are descendant of Isaac. Islam said Ishmael is the one that Abram sacrificed but Hebrews said it was Isaac.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:45 pm |
    • Muneef

      Ismael was much elder than Issac for he was the son of the slaved wife "Hager" whom Abraham had to took to live in Mecca.
      Ismael has assisted his father in rebuilding "The House of Worship in Mecca"... While Isaac came at a latter stage from his free wife "Sarah" and they were living some where in the Area which we call Sham which falls between Jordan,Palestian,Syria,Turkey...!
      Any way non of them was sacrificed since GOD has given Abraham a great sheep to sacrifices and informed him that he was only testing his obedience only...!

      September 24, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
  15. Israel My Love

    "Israel, loving you is like courting a fiancee who keeps rejecting me. We are engaged, but you keep saying you don't love me. We are destined to marry so I keep waiting until you come to love me. It breaks my heart and tortures my soul. But because I truly love you, I never force myself on you. I wait for God's timing. – from an Evangelical Christian" Israel, you belong to your Messiah Jesus forever. Both God and we Evangelicals will keep loving you unconditionally until you return to Him. You will never understand the Song of Songs apart from your Messiah Jesus.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:42 pm |
  16. A Friend to the Jews

    Good. An interesting article. It really sums up. As an Asian Christian, I or my home countries have no relation to the Jews historically but we always knew God loves Israel and she is special from reading the Bible. And Jesus our Lord was a Jew. The Jews can rely on the Evangelicals. We simply love them and believe Israel has right to exist happily especially after what they went through. The timing of rapture did not matter to us Christians. Like the President Nixon's mother, we simply love the Jews and wish their best spiritually and physically. Read Romans chapter 9 in the Bible.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:40 pm |
    • masmanz

      Among the Jews of Jesus era those who accepted Jesus became Christian, those who rejected him stayed as Jews. And, actually very few Jews accepted him. To call Jesus a Jew is simply misleading and wrong.

      September 23, 2011 at 11:59 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      @Mas-, Jews become true Israel if they accept their Messiah Jesus. The Jews always miss out God's will for them. Israel will accept Jesus and get saved at the end.

      September 24, 2011 at 3:04 am |
  17. Indonesian

    We support Israel. We support Palestine to be banned from middle east. Go go Israel. Go defeat all islamic empires that use immigrant as deceitful tactic just like mohammed did it to medina on arabian.

    Did my words makes your heart burning, Moslem?? you must ask why your heart always burning up and your eyes looks red when you read such comment oppose your pedophile fake prophets mohammed (curse will be upon him)?

    it was because your heart is full of evil. You makes allah number two and your mohammed a slave gigolo of old wife's as a number one god.

    Your heart always full of hatred and furiousity and you can't control it.

    Well we Atheist (christian) can control it because we believe that Allah is Great and Allah didn;t need help from a man to kill infidels especially need to reward man to do what Allah consider as a easy going task.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:35 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      @Indonesian, Did I read you correctly? Atheists are not Christian! Though I hope Muslims will stop persecuting infidels especially Christians in Indonesia, Muslims are far better than the hedonistic Western atheists. Muslims are a lot more like normal human than those perverts.

      September 23, 2011 at 9:50 pm |
    • Petri Dish

      We should all eat more beef.

      September 23, 2011 at 11:18 pm |
  18. SilverTrail

    The Mideast peace cannot exist as long as Muslims don't repent and as long as Israel exists. The West should protect Israel and pay tax to her since she has been a human shield for both Europe and USA. Jews, know that the conservative Christian political agenda is the best thing for you and everyone else on Earth.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:14 pm |
    • Muneef

      Very funny that America has it's fingers in the mouth of Israel feeding it while finding Israel having their finger up to the Azz of America... Heard some Jews call Christians as lunatics for believing about building of the temple and the return of "Jesus" to saving all...!? But still blindly brain washed one's carry on with their cash flow towards that mirage that they think they see...!

      September 23, 2011 at 9:26 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      Muneef, wake up. The Jewish con-tri-bution in the West and USA is huge. They are the functioning brain of the West although their nature and motivations are not good like Christians. We Christians don't care what the Jews or pagans say about us. We love them and protect them all and teach them God's truth; it's our holy duty. You got left behind in intelligence because you refused to study the Bible and learn from the Jews.

      September 23, 2011 at 9:35 pm |
    • Petri Dish

      Silver Train,
      F the jews, F the Christians and F the Muslims. We DON'T NEED RELIGION. Life would be so much more pleasant without it.

      September 23, 2011 at 9:40 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      Mankind needs religion. The atheists' language usage is the filthiest thing in the entire universe.

      September 23, 2011 at 9:44 pm |
    • Petri Dish

      Silver Whatever,
      1. Why do you think we need religion?
      2. Why do you assume I am an athiest?
      3. Why do you think words are filthy?

      September 23, 2011 at 11:10 pm |
  19. Israel My Love, From an Evangelical

    "Israel, loving you is like, you know, courting a fiancee who keeps rejecting me. We are engaged, but you keep saying you don't love me. We are destined to marry so I keep waiting until you come to love me. It breaks my heart and tortures my soul. But because I truly love you, I never force myself on you. I wait for God's timing." Israel, you belong to your Messiah Jesus forever. Both God and we Evangelicals will keep loving you unconditionally until you return to Him. You will never understand the Song of Songs apart from your Messiah Jesus.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:10 pm |
    • *frank*


      September 23, 2011 at 9:16 pm |
    • Muneef


      September 23, 2011 at 9:29 pm |
  20. A Friend to the Jews

    An interesting article. It really sums up. As an Asian Christian, I or my home countries have no relation to the Jews historically but we always knew God loves Israel and she is special from reading the Bible. And Jesus our Lord was a Jew. The Jews can rely on the Evangelicals. We simply love them and believe Israel has right to exist happily especially after what they went through. The timing of rapture did not matter to us Christians. Like the President Nixon's mother, we simply love the Jews and wish their best spiritually and physically. Read Romans chapter 9 in the Bible.

    September 23, 2011 at 9:06 pm |
    • Muneef

      Do not understand if you mean by "Israel" the Land or the People? The land ,I do agree it is loved by all those of Abrahamic faith....by about being the people is the dispute since there are of the origins while many were imported,brought in as temporary immigrants during the WW 1&2 but latter out of the blue they became the rightful owners pushing real original occupants of the land to outer boarders... Guess by this you have to be extra careful inviting people into your house otherwise one day you will find your self out and they become the lawful owners....!

      September 23, 2011 at 9:19 pm |
    • SilverTrail

      Muneef, God gave the land to the Jews and they won the wars. Most of the land was possessed by humans that way. If you are too lazy or incompetent, you are out. It's only last 40-50 years the world changed the policies of getting land.

      September 23, 2011 at 9:29 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.