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 Is Joel Osteen underestimated? One religious scholar says yes.
October 7th, 2011
12:26 PM ET
Joel Osteen takes on his criticsBy John Blake, CNN (CNN) - He peddles “gospel lite," a watered-down Christianity that mixes prosperity with piety. That's how critics have described Joel Osteen's message. The televangelist may be the pastor of the largest church in America, but he still doesn't get respect in many parts of the religious community. Osteen, a college dropout who never attended seminary, has built a huge international audience with inspirational messages that blend positive thinking and personal transformation. But is he preaching "gospel lite" messages devoid of any mention of sin and hard choices? Osteen rejects that charge with the same honey-toned voice and unflappability he displays in the pulpit at Lakewood Church in Houston. There's no hint of defensiveness. “I deal every day with life issues and sin in our church every week,” he says. “I deal with people who have cancer, talk to people about how to forgive when they’ve been hurt. I don’t think that’s light. That’s everyday issues.” Osteen is promoting his latest book, “Every Day a Friday,” in which he shows readers “how to be happier seven days a week.” The book dispenses much of the same pulpit advice Osteen has given to the tens of thousands of members of his Texas church. Much of that advice centers on attitude. Some samples: Playfulness is as important as sleep. After you climb, reach back. Give up your comfort to comfort others. It’s not the traditional “turn or burn” pulpit message, and Osteen is OK with that. “I don’t beat people down,” he says. “I don’t have a lot of condemnation in my message. I don’t believe that we’re supposed to be depressed and broke and poor and suffering. God wants us to be happy and to be a blessing to people.” Osteen’s phrase “God doesn’t want us to be broke” sets off theological alarm bells for some critics who say that's code for preaching the prosperity message. Critics of that message – that God promises wealth to the faithful – say it transforms Jesus from a prophet to a financial adviser. Go online, and there are plenty of pastors and scholars who go into detail about Osteen’s message. One of them is the Rev. Gary Gilley, senior pastor of Southern View Chapel in Springfield, Illinois. Gilley says Osteen preaches a “gospel lite” message that avoids anything controversial such as judgment or sin. He says Osteen also preaches that wealth is a sign of God’s pleasure. There are plenty of heroes in the Bible, such as the Old Testament prophets Jeremiah and Habakkuk, who were poor, Gilley says. “Someone might counter that David and Solomon were wealthy, but this was not the case for Jeremiah and Habakkuk, both godly men who lost everything,” Gilley says. “So where does Osteen come up with the idea that 'God wants to increase us financially'? Of course, millions of examples throughout the world and throughout history could be given of godly people living in poverty.” Osteen doesn't deny preaching about prosperity, but he defines it in broader terms than do his critics. “When they say prosperity, that’s some guy on TV asking for money,” he says. “Our ministry is not about that. We’re about helping people. When I hear prosperity, it means to have good relationships, to be a blessing to people, to have peace in your mind.” Shayne Lee, a sociologist at the University of Houston, says Osteen has been misunderstood. Lee has been a blunt critic of televangelists. In his book “Holy Mavericks,” he examines how Osteen and other televangelists use branding to sell themselves to a mass audience. Lee spent a year studying Osteen's church. He came away impressed. “He’s underestimated,” Lee says of Osteen. “He’s got tremendous skills that people will never give him credit for.” Osteen’s skills quickly became apparent when he took over from his father, John Osteen, Lakewood's founder and longtime pastor. Joel Osteen had run the media department for his father, Lee says. Osteen had to give his first sermon a week after watching his father die, Lee said. “Few thought that he was up to the task, and some thought the church would fall apart,” Lee wrote in “Holy Mavericks.” Lakewood now has 45,000 members, Osteen preaches to sold-out arenas across the country, and his television ministry draws millions of weekly viewers. Lee cites three factors for Osteen’s success: Marketing: He says Osteen’s previous work behind the camera taught him how to brand a ministry and create a visually appealing and quickly moving worship service. Timing: When Osteen hit the pulpit in 1999, people had already grown tired of the smooth-talking televangelists who were often caught up in scandal. Osteen was the boyish-looking pastor who exuded sincerity and never pretended he had all the answers, Lee says. Preaching: Osteen may not have the grasp of theology and church history that some pastors have, but he knows how to connect with ordinary Americans through a therapeutic message that draws heavily from pop culture, Lee says. “His lack of seminary training is part of his appeal,” Lee says. “He’s not saying big words he learned from seminary. He’s speaking in a language that contemporary Americans understand.” Lee says Osteen’s church is also underestimated. He says that Lakewood arguably has the most diverse congregation in the nation in terms of race, income and age, and that it does a lot for the poor. Critics who complain that Osteen waters down the gospel are suspicious because of his “lack of rigid dogmatism,” Lee says. Yet Lee says Osteen’s preaching honors the example of Jesus, who told stories more than he issued dogma. He says many of Osteen’s sermons are built on insights extracted from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. “Jesus used parables to speak in a compelling way that his contemporaries could understand,” Lee said. “Osteen is speaking the language of the people in the same way that Jesus did.” soundoff (1,331 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Next »
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Joel Osteen is just another preacher that takes advantage of tax laws and the bible to make millions.
Agreed. He's a salesman who's figured out he can make more money selling god than vacuum cleaners.
If god exists, why doesn't he just show his face? Then EVERYONE would be a believer! Maybe he's too ashamed at having bungled creation? It's such puerile nonsense!
NJBob....I assure you that your wish will be granted.....You will see His face.
Yea, never. Since non-existence is for all of us, even the religious folks.
"Christians" (I always put "Christian" in quotes) are all about the get back and condemnation. "Yeah, you'll see god's face soon enough then will be damned to hell." How uplifting is that? From my experience, "Christianity" is the only religion where its followers take great pleasure in assuring non "Christians" are forever damned.
I watch Joel Osteen every Sunday morning, before I go to my local church here on the South Plains of Texas. I always feel so uplifted after his program is over, and I'm ready to hear my local preacher teach me more. I have read most of the books Joel has written, and learned something new about myself each time. The criticisim that so many of these other "seminary trained" ministers offers only confirms to me that religion is a business, and not about helping or uplifting people. It's so sad to me! Judgement is the only thing that so many "Christians" seem to truly understand. The ONLY thing I know to do is PRAY for us all......you know....since we're all so PERFECT!!!
He's a fake and a phoney and people buy it. I'm in the wrong business.
Dear Con Artist Osteen,
For your final sermon before they run you out of town:
The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians during the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
It's more likely that Jesus is a compilation of various solar deities. And NO, this is not just made up from Zeitgeist.
This comparative religion info predates Zeitgeist by many years. Check out Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection.
Anon, do you have proof of this?
From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.
"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.
“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.
I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .
Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.
There is also a search engine for this book on the left hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus
See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.
From ask.com,
"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.
Then there are these scriptural references:
Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )
Still waiting on proof and not guesswork Reality.
He has the largest church in Texas, that is apparently diverse. Well, from what I've seen of his circus, everyone in that church looks like they have money to spend and more. He didn't go to seminary so he doens't really understand what is in the Bible apparently. People like him make me cringe. I'm a Southern Baptist, have attend small churches that preach. I'm not talking about the sin and go to Hell, fire and brimstone, sweat flying off the pastors forehead, yelling amen. I mean the small town preacher who tells the story, and puts it in to modern terms and situations. Yes, I would like to have money, but that's not going to come from me living a good life. It's going to come from me working hard for my keep, doing it for God and Jesus. Mr. Olsteen lives a good life because of those who give him money. How can he afford that huge church that cost millions? How can he have that private plane and huge house? Makes me wonder how someone who says he is teaching the Bible, which mentions nothing about getting rich by doing good, gets that much. Wealth comes from hard work, not because God says "He is a good man, who worships me. I'll make him filthy rich." I am a Christian, and a good man, yet I'm poor. I work hard for my money (military) and have worked for all I have. Am I happy? Yes, I am. I have my health, and have a wonderful family.
As far as King Solomon being rich, God gave that to him because he didn't ask to be rich. Solomon wanted anything but wealth but God gave that too him because he didn't ask for it. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth, not the wealthy. If Joel wants to promote wealth, then why isn't he going out and doing good works, like missions and helping the homeless, working in a soup kitchen.
Amen Reverent. How about a wing to a hospital in his honor and the service to the community it would provide. Or building affordable housing for Seniors, oh how this man could Shine with Honor and real Grace.
JO is a JO..KE. He stands for nothing, has no back bone, no real values at all. I saw him on Piers Morgan the other night and he was a complete wimp. He wouldn't commit to anything, wouldn't take a stand, and obviously is just in it for the money. His wife is the same...she looked at him before answering every question....the good, co-dependant, submissive wife that she is. He was so scared to voice an opinion for fear that he might offend some "poor" fool that sends him money every week...disgusting.
Actually he's done all of what you asked of him. He did not ask to be rich, he got the church from church funds to return to his listeners, since you are a Christian as you said, then you should believe in Blessings. GOD gave him those Blessings, GOD allowed for him to succeed and be able to reach out to so many. He has helped so many people. Most of you think that volunteering needs to be recognized, or splashed all over the tv or radio. Donations and volunteering is actually supposed to be done in anonymously, without fanfare, without spotlighting. I don't need to know how much you have given, what you have done. That is between you and God. You are responsible for our relationship with GOD by whats in your heart, not by showing off.
Joel Osteen has done so much without showing off. It's not he's fault GOD has blessed him with abundance of resources in which he helps others. Again the church does not teach handouts as a form of teachings.
The weaker you are, the more you need religion. And Osteen appeals to the weakest.
Religion doesn't save you. Only Jesus saves, not religion. God doesn't want us to be religious but be in a relationship with Him so that life has meaning, abundance and hope.
Brett,
"God doesn't want us to be religious but be in a relationship with Him...."
This is late 20th century pop-religio-psychology.
Do you know what a 'relationship' is? It consists of more than one person talking to himself. So, you talk to "God", right? Does he answer? What does he say?... anything that you don't already know or that you couldn't dream up using your imagination?
You are talking to yourself... and answering.
and fornicating
@Real Deal - Ha ha! Exactly!
Religion didn't die for the sins of the world, JESUS did. That is the only thing God will ask you ! What did you do with MY SON. GRACE THAT GOD EXTENDS TO ALL MAN-KIND , AND BY FAITH WE RESPOND TO ACCEPT WHAT GRACE HAS GIVEN US. CHECK OUT ALL THAT GRACE HAS DONE . GRACE AND FAITH WORK TOGETHER, GRACE BY GOD, FAITH BY US.( GOD EVEN GAVE US THE FAITH) .
Corporate Churches, I liked Joel until he said he didnt oppose the Death Penalty, then I knew he wasnt a True follower of Jesus Christ. Texas "Christians" are Prideful, Selfish, Hateful, GREEDY and believe in building their Kingdoms here on Earth, there Bible doesnt have the Chapter of Matthew- what you do to the least you have done to God, the last shall be first.
Patrick – I am a Texan and a Christian and I take offense to you saying that we are prideful and everything else. Don't clump all of us in the same group with this man. I don't like him, or what he believes in, or what he preaches.
God doesn't oppose the death penalty either.
It is what it is and if you were a Christian you would work on your PRIDE and need to get your feathers ruffled up. Jesus knows who and what you truly are, and my opinion should not matter.
I liked Joel until he said he didnt oppose the Death Penalty.
He's the pastor of a mega church in TEXAS. Opposing the death penalty would be a death sentence to the career of a pastor in Texas. Most of the folks in Texas are Christian and are out for blood.
" but nature in a way does this for us in sedimentary layers" – Brown Note. Be careful with that one. Even some of most ardent scientists that support evolution are not ready to say that sedimentary layers and the evidence in them are conclusive when it comes to evolution. You have plenty of other good evidence for evolution or neo-Darwinism but that is not one of them.
One thing that non believers will never get is that they will never understand something they don't believe in. They have no belief except science itself. What they don't' understand is science is just and explanation of how things work, but GOD is how things began. Science has never proven 100% all of it's facts, and facts even show that in history and present that science keeps on changing it's findings. What science will never be able to explain is the order of matter of all things we know of. Any hope is good hope no matter if it's a promise to the heavens or a dusty grave. In the end, I'd rather be the one that believed in the unbelievable than to realize I had a chance and chose hell. GOD and the Bible will always be just, it's the only book written by so many witnesses spread out through so many countries and still reflect the same witness throughout the book.
Donn,
"I'd rather be the one that believed in the unbelievable than to realize I had a chance and chose hell."
- Look up Pascal's Wager, quite old and quite refuted. What if you have chosen the wrong god? What if the 'real' god is Allah, or Ra or Zeus - you will be out of luck.
---------------------
"GOD and the Bible will always be just, it's the only book written by so many witnesses spread out through so many countries and still reflect the same witness throughout the book."
- Look up how the canon of the Bible was chosen. Early churchmen voted on which books from all over the place followed their party line.
lol.. out of luck.. no. At least I have one chance out of none thats better than anything when it's eternal. Plus I don't reference my life on quotes unless it's from the Bible.
Donn,
What makes you think Jesus or hell are the only two results possible? Seems that too whom much is given much is expected and vice versa. In the Old Testament God blotted out the ungodly generation of Cain. Then there is specific wording that says hell is reserved for satin and his demons. This shows a range of nonexistence through hell being the worst of the worst. My thought is that God has demonstrated His love for us and He will give each of us something better than we deserve yet in keeping with His perfect Justice and righteousness. Is that possible?
Hey Donn, all you had to say is that you are afraid of dying. The rest is just filler.
Amen...I totally agree! You hit it RIGHT ON THE NOSE!
“they will never understand something they don't believe in” The same logic is used by UFO fans and the people in aluminum foil hats
I am not afraid to die, because that is something that will happen as promised by God himself. It is not death that I fear, it is the preparation for the eternal resting place. Life is short but beautiful, short but rewarding, but in the end of it all, the final resting place is most important of all. If you don't believe in a final resting place, then this Religion, ALL this has no meaning to you. For those that believe in greater things that oneself achievement, we believe there is a great place worth striving for. Like I said, I'd rather prepare for an eternal resting place of heaven, than a place in hell. (IF)the word of doubters – there is no heaven's and hell then I would have lost nothing then, and my life would be for nothing but a spec of science fact. What a waste that would be.
I think Joel is not the fluffy pastor some of his critics paint him to be. I think he talks about the basics of faith in Christ and that for many people that are hurting, sick or in trouble this is really important. I do think because of his audience and his own training he does not get enough into character work for my taste. But there are other speakers and pastors that deal with that. I think anybody needing a refresher course or a Faith 101 course Joel is a great asset to the faith.
How much money did Jesus make off preaching?? Or was he just a loser and "lazy"?
Nothing, because Jesus never existed AKA myth.
@Patrick – Jesus didn't earn anything. He wasn't about money. "Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceasers." He preached the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Kingdom of Earth. The only wealth I want is my health and my family.
Anon, and your proof of this is what exactly? Please provide evidence.
Anon...the bible has not ONE contradiction...you either haven't read it or are talking out of your hat.....or maybe you are just spouting things like some here...without really understanding them....I will reiterate.....you are heading for hell.
You are wrong.
NJBob....You are the one who is wrong...and headed in the wrong direction.....eternity is a very lon time to burn....I DO NOT envy you.
@Messiah is Lord,
You are vile. Go soak your head in holy water.
@ smite me....is that the best you can come up with?.....are not more creative than "holy water"???....I am not catholic btw....do you even know the difference?...go back to bed...way past your bedtime.
@ Messiah – I understand very well what it's all about. There's little about that narcissistic tyrant of a god you worship that I find believable, factual, appealing or even moral. If he exists, he has much to answer for.
when the old testament was translated from hebrew to greek
the word grave was translated to hades
the greeks gave birth to what christians think hell is
in the new testament
tartarus is used
which is a lower level
so why is it greek mythology used in the bible
it wasnt just translation
it was using this mythology to generate fear
the pit is just a grave
but christianity wants to generate fear under the guise of love
so they stole ideas from the greek mythological fables and incorporated them into the religion of the bible
in reality
hell is a completely made up place
we know this because we know that greek mythology was nothing more than a story christians borrowed from
and we know its just a story because we can visit mount olympus and see with our own eyes
there are no gods up there
@Messiah is Lord,
You don't merit my best... I wouldn't waste my time.
@NJBob....you are right in only one thing you said...and that is that "I worship Him".....yes, I do...I worship Him .....Love him with all my heart...he is the most loving....most just....and most merciful Yaweh Adonai and Yeshuah Mashiach his Christ....I will lay down my life for him...I know him and and hold complete allegiance to him....on that you are right...all else you are wrong and completely disillusioned.
Why do the "Christians" never speak of the Chapter of Matthew??? Your all Hypocrits and liars.
You are wrong. The bible is full of contradictions. Here is a site that posts most of them:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
If there are no contradictions in be bible how come one set of 10 commandments includes “don’t cook baby goats in their mothers milk” but the other set of 10 commandments doesn’t? Don’t believe me? Check out EX 32 and EX 34
One who partakes of too much "Pie In The Sky", is in danger of becoming a fathead.
WHY are they picking on Pastor Joel Osteen. He's positive, encouraging, and spirit filled. Its crazy how we can continously watch garbage like, Jersey Shore, Houswives of Whatever State and find it paletable. God is Soverign and we Christians will never stop listening to His Word. We will pray for the critics in the name of Jesus!
All you atheists on here...If you don't then, central scrutinzer, brown note.... I assume you are rational people.....there is no definitive evidence for evolution...no DNA evidence....all the muations that occur in the human genome are nonsense mutaions and give rise deformed and useless structures. There is a God and He watches everyone and all are loved and given the opportunity to seek him. All will also be judged.....as of now, you guys are heading straight for hell.
no evidence you say
lol
ok
so why is it that people who live in mountainous regions have developed larger lungs than those of us close to sea level
why do people have different colored skin
why have humans grown taller over the centuries
how about varying eye shapes
theres plenty of evidence all around you
but sheep cant reason with facts
you do realize that evolution takes many years to occur
christians often think that there should be graves prepared and ready for us to dig up in chronological evolutionary order
in order for evolution to be proven
but nature in a way does this for us in sedimentary layers
which show different periods throughout earths history
there is tons of evidence of evolution
creationists like to say theres no proof
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/five-proofs-evolution
but there is
evolution simply proves the bible wrong
even though it proves itself wrong on many occasions we dont even need an outside source to see its trash
oh
and i wont be judged by your god
one single scripture
just one
proves that the whole myth of christianity is a complete farce
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." –Matthew 16:28 (KJV)
in short
jesus will not be returning
so
about this judgment myth
Like said Brown Note...you are very good at speculating the evidence for evolution. In my opinion, it takes a lot more faith to belive in evolution than in the Bible....the bible is flawless....you don't want to admit it...or rather you are blind to it.
Super...like I said you are blind....Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." –Matthew 16:28 (KJV).....means the people standing there came to understand the kingdom of God which is WITHIN...do you not understand?....it is a kingdom which is ruled by a diffrent set of laws....with Jesus Christ as its King...Luke 17:21 says.....nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."....it is an internal structure, einstein.
The bible has more contradictions than Swiss cheese. Lay off a little on that Jesus juice.
http://www.evilbible.com/
Anon...the bible has not ONE contradiction...you either haven't read it or are talking out of your hat.....or maybe y
Using mental gymnastics with cognitive dissonance to ignore reality is a b!cth, ain't it?
oh jesus here we go with a christian saying
this is what it means
then you must also know since youre a bible scholar that theres a scripture about interpretation
that states
no scripure is a matter of personal interpretation
so genius
about this whole
this is what it means crap
the bible was written in black and white and is meant to be taken literally as intended by its authors
as the claim goes
the bible was written through men by god
therefore no man can interpret its meaning other than for what it explicitly states
i have the distinct feeling youre an atheist
because even christians are hesitant to claim the bible is flawless
because most of them know it isnt
and theyre afraid to even say it because they know theyll get shot down hard
since jesus said more than once hed return a couple thousand years ago
theres more scripture
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." –Matthew 10:23 (NIV)
doesnt say kingdom there
no sir
it says son of man
hes saying hes going to be back before they can frolic through the cities of their tiny chunk of land
jesus speaking of the end times and all the trash that was supposed to happen
ended his sermon with this little nugget of gold
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." –Matthew 24:34 (KJV)
well
that generation passed a few years back id say
Brown Note...I appreciate that you are thinking..proves you are not dead..yet....I will repeat...the bible is FLAWLESS...without error.....it is not always meant to be taken literally...such as baptism of fire?....cleansing by the blood?.....purchased of God?....bride of Christ?..... you probably have no idea what I am talking about.
If you're too Jesus-juiced in the head to spot the obvious contradictions then whats the point of reasoning with you.
Anon.....sorry din't want to ignore you there buddy...."mental gymnastics", huh?.....may I suggest you exercise those brain cells a bit more.....and try to come up with somewhat intelligent arguments like, Brown Note here.
considering i spent over 20 years in churches across the country
i know exactly what im talking about
the bible is not meant to be interpreted
it is also full of flaws
the creation myth for example
there are two of them in genesis
they contradict each other
the ten commandments
the first set got destroyed
god promised to write them down again
whats he do
creates a completely different set of ten commandments
it contradicts itself on human sacrifice
as well as repentance of god
animal sacrifices
how about david and goliath
there are two versions in the bible of how david killed him
one was with a sling and the other was with a sword
and its funny because these verses are right next to each other
heres your flawless bible
lol
first he kills him with a sling: 1 Samuel 17:49-50
"And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David."
and then he kills the same guy again with a magical sword 1 Samuel 17:51
"Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith."
does gods anger last forever
no: Jeremiah 3:12
"Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever."
yes: Jeremiah 17:4
"I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever."
will christians be persecuted
lets see what the bible says
no: Proverbs 16:7
"When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
yes: 2 Timothy 3:12
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
i could go on for days with this one
^ Hey Ken Ham, go back to your "museum".
seriously, stop telling everybody "your headed to hell". Idc if it's true, Jesus was about love and didnt tell us to go condemn everybody that attacks us or doesnt believe. Your turning people off and away from Jesus. If you care about trying to help guide people in the right salvation so they can know and have a relationship with God the way we have you would be much more compassionate to them and understanding how it wasnt easy to have the scales removed from their eyes, living in a "rational" world where things must fit our logic in order to be true. so i apologize to everyone when christians on the comment things don't behave the way we were called to. At least know that this one cares about you
I still reject Christianity and it's outdated tenets.
Jacob....my brother...if you will allow me to call you that.....I appreciate that you are doing your part....keep loving people like me and others....my part is also loving and that is to tell people the uncomfortable.....you probably don't get called names etc...but that's your business....I have to tell people that they need to get out of the way...they may see it as unloving but it is the truth and I have more allegiance to the truth....the truth is this none of us....not even me...are getting off the path to hell without putting our trust in Jesus Christ.....don't apologize for me....I am not sorry.
The Christians heavenly paradise would be my hell torment.
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1chMywKgkos&w=640&h=360]
Brown Note, Anon, Jacob, NJBob.....I have to bid you goodnight...its been a pleasure(?), gentlemen (or ladies, whichever).
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1chMywKgko&w=640&h=360]
You are wrong. Read "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne. He details proven instances of evolution in a very easy to understand way.
@thebrownnote you do realize that what you are quoting about in Matt 10 was before he was crucified and guess what happened! Keep reading, one day The Truth will be revealed to you and surrender will be your answer.
This is why you don't understand:
Matthew 13:10-17
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Messiah is Lord,
Unfortunately you chose the wrong religion. In your next life you will be a fly. Hopefully you do better next time around.
And kind of prefer this quote from someone far more educated than you in the myth of evolution. from a NOTED Paleontologist!
Randy L. Wysong D.V.M
"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain
one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone."
The Creation-Evolution Controversy (1976), p.31
THE EVIL BIBLE .com....NOW THATS FUNNY.......Wow I needed that laugh.....Comedy writers in Hollywood couldnt write this any better
Here's one that looks more professional.
http://www.project-reason.org/scripture_project/
shwmin:
For the life of me, I can't find any information on Randy Wysong's education. He's a veterinarian, but I can't even find what college he attended. I see nothing to indicate that this man has spent his life studying paleontology. Maybe he read a book once. He spends more time writing articles and creating products to sell. This man is not a noted paleontologist. As far as I can tell, he's a dilettante with an opinion.
So what sort of “definitive evidence” do you have for your religion? Please present it and explain why it is more reliable than the volumes of evidence that supports evolution? I’m asking this as a serious question.
"All will also be judged.....as of now, you guys are heading straight for hell"
Your insecurity is showing deary. Your need to feel superior is what that is all about. You aren't. You are deluded, and psychotic. have a good day.
Messiah is Lard,
There are hundreds, if not thousands of contradictions in the bible. If you don't know that, you have never studied it. On what day was Jesus tried and put to death The Day of Passover, (Mark), the morning after the Passover meal was eaten ? Or was the Day of Preparation for Passover, (John) ? Noon ?, (John), or 9 AM ? (Mark). Which account of the birth is correct, (Matthew ?), or Luke ? They all say that the birth occurred during the reign of Herod. Luke says it happened when Quirinus was Governor of Syria. They know, from a variety of sources, (including the Roman Tacitus, and Josephus), that Quirinius did not become Governor of Syria, until about 6 CE, (AD), which is TEN YEARS AFTER Herod died. Matthew spend the ENTIRE first chapter trying to establish that Jesus was in the Davidic line through Joseph, then ends the chapter saying he was NOT the father ???? Where was Jesus the day after he was baptized ? Was Jarius' daughter already dead ? What did the voice at the baptism say ? When and where did Judas die, who actually went to the tomb on Easter Sunday, etc., etc., etc. Let's see you resolve just ONE of those questions. Then come back and tell us there are NO contradictions in the bible. It is FULL of them. Why did Matthew quote the wrong prophet ? ("Then it was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah", (Matthew 27:9-10). Too bad it was actually Zechariah 11:3. When was the curtain of the temple "rent" ? While Jesus was on the cross, or after he dies ? Just one....let's see you try. 😈
Those were just the ones that came to mind. Here's a few more : http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html 😈
Why everybody hatin' on this man? He does no real work, just talks a bunch of goofy stuff he pulls out of his a$$, but that's just like Jesus! Jesus wouldn't have been singing the same sweet song if he worked in a coal mine or loading trailers 60 or 70 hours a week, instead of just jabbering for his meals. That'd wipe the beatific look off his scrawny face pretty f'in quick lol.
You are aware, sir, that Jesus was a carpenter, right? And then you are probably aware that there was no electricity or power tools during his stay on earth, right? So, before he was preaching, he was a hard working man who provided a worthy service. When is the last time you drilled a hole in a 4×4 by hand? How about sawing a piece of wood with a hand saw? Never? I didn't think so.......
P-Giddy,
Yeah, a carpenter using that hugely abundant supply of lumber from the Israeli desert, huh!? If he was so good at it and was such an icon to his followers ("God", already!), you would think that they would have at least preserved a coffee table or a wooden spo.on that he made, wouldn't you? More of the legend that you buy into so easily...
I've drilled and sawed plenty of stuff by hand you sanctimonious f'in clown. Ever notice why you don't hear much about Jesus working all day, but lots about him talking all day? It's because he was a lazy fraud. Have a splendid evening, pea brain!
Watching Osteen on TV, is like watching a clown on acid.
actually Jesus was a carpenter and wasn't some wimpy guy the way paintings show him to be(they focus too much on his loving merciful side when they picture him and it reflects in paintings, also europeans were into the whole "beauty" thing). also the HISTORY CHANNEL or (national geo) say he probably did mostly mason work (stone) so i think (know) he knew what a 60hour work week would feel like.
The retarded channel more like it. Jesus is myth.
God has been good to me always. My offertory plate is always over flowing with money and I am leading a very comfortable life. I don't know what the people are talking about? Unemployment? economy? debt crisis? and these are news to me. I live off the sweat of others. If you want to learn the trick please contact me http://www.onlinepreachertriaining.com. May God bless you all
well said, lilmiss...so many churches are dealing with declining attendance and apathy...while people flock to see Joel Osteen.....that alone is proof enough
wow, really Richard S? one of the reasons Joel is so popular is he speaks TO people in a way they can, and WANT TO, understand...so he doesn't come off sounding like a wanna-be high-and-mighty preacher...hard to follow what you can't understand, or what holds no interest for you
My parents love watching Mr. Osteen. I have been an agnostic for years, but recently have been interested in religion again because of his Sunday telecast. For me to have questioned religion for years and now this man is making me think about it again is saying something. He gets people interested in religion... why argue the finer points? He sends a positive message and provides hope to people.
what good is false hope
thats the problem right there
the religious are so caught up in false hope
they cant handle reality
so when it punches them in the face like it rightfully should
they completely break down
religion isnt healthy
its like promising a child that santa will take a dump down the chimney
but he never shows up ever
and year after year you lie to them
and soon theyre an adult
and get banged real hard in prison showers because theyre weak
and what do they do then
they find jesus
they go from santa to jesus
and neither one exists
I've had the same experience, lilmiss. His style is still very Bible based (which is something I wasn't interested in at all), but it's neither polarizing nor patronizing. When I need some positive reinforcement, I'm just as apt to do a YouTube search for him now as I am any of the personal development crowd I've liked for years. Good on him for NOT bring the fire and brimstone back – that wasn't the message.
Amen, lilmiss. I'm a heathen and I love his optimism. Watching him counters my cynical, negativity. And that's good for me. I love watching Joel Osteen on tv.
^ Two Christards that are too Jesus-juiced in the head.