My Take: Are evangelicals dangerous?
Many evangelicals want to ban abortion, but does that mean they want theocracy?
October 15th, 2011
10:00 PM ET

My Take: Are evangelicals dangerous?

Editor's Note: R. Albert Mohler, Jr., is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world.

By R. Albert Mohler, Jr., Special to CNN

Here we go again.

Every four years, with every new presidential election cycle, public voices sound the alarm that the evangelicals are back. What is so scary about America’s evangelical Christians?

Just a few years ago, author Kevin Phillips told intellectual elites to run for cover, claiming that well-organized evangelicals were attempting to turn America into a theocratic state. In “American Theocracy,” Phillips warned of the growing influence of Bible-believing, born-again, theologically conservative voters who were determined to create a theocracy.

Writer Michelle Goldberg, meanwhile, has warned of a new Christian nationalism, based in “dominion theology.” Chris Hedges topped that by calling conservative Christians “American fascists.”

And so-called New Atheists like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris claim that conservative Christians are nothing less than a threat to democracy. They prescribe atheism and secularism as the antidotes.

This presidential cycle, the alarms have started earlier than usual. Ryan Lizza, profiling Rep. Michele Bachmann for The New Yorker, informed his readers that “Bachmann belongs to a generation of Christian conservatives whose views have been shaped by institutions, tracts, and leaders not commonly known to secular Americans, or even to most Christians.”

Change just a few strategic words and the same would be true of Barack Obama or any other presidential candidate. Every candidate is shaped by influences not known to all and by institutions that other Americans might find strange.

What stories like this really show is that the secular elites assume that their own institutions and leaders are normative.

The New Yorker accused Bachmann of being concerned with developing a Christian worldview, ignoring the fact that every thinking person operates out of some kind of worldview. The article treated statements about wifely submission to husbands and Christian influence in art as bizarre and bellicose.

When Rick Perry questioned the theory of evolution, Dawkins launched into full-on apoplexy, wondering aloud how anyone who questions evolution could be considered intelligent, even as polls indicate that a majority of Americans question evolution.

Bill Keller, then executive editor of The New York Times, topped all the rest by seeming to suggest that conservative Christians should be compared to those who believe in space aliens. He complained that “when it comes to the religious beliefs of our would-be presidents, we are a little squeamish about probing too aggressively.”

Really? Earlier this month, comedian Penn Jillette - a well–known atheist - wrote a very serious op-ed complaining of the political influence of “bugnut Christians,” in the pages of The Los Angeles Times, no less. Detect a pattern here?

By now, this is probably being read as a complaint against the secular elites and prominent voices in the mainstream media. It’s not.

If evangelicals intend to engage public issues and cultural concerns, we have to be ready for the scrutiny and discomfort that comes with disagreement over matters of importance. We have to risk being misunderstood - and even misrepresented - if we intend to say anything worth hearing.

Are evangelicals dangerous? Well, certainly not in the sense that more secular voices warn. The vast majority of evangelicals are not attempting to create a theocracy, or to oppose democracy.

To the contrary, evangelicals are dangerous to the secularist vision of this nation and its future precisely because we are committed to participatory democracy.

As Christians committed to the Bible, evangelicals have learned to advocate on behalf of the unborn, believing that every single human being, at every stage of development, is made in God’s image.

Evangelicals worry about the fate of marriage and the family, believing that the pattern for human relatedness set out in Scripture will lead to the greatest human flourishing.

We are deeply concerned about a host of moral and cultural issues, from how to address poverty to how to be good stewards of the earth, and on some of these there is a fairly high degree of disagreement even among us.

Above all, evangelicals are those who believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and are most concerned about telling others about Jesus. Most of America’s evangelical Christians are busy raising their children, working to support their families and investing energy in their local churches.

But over recent decades, evangelical Christians have learned that the gospel has implications for every dimension of life, including our political responsibility.

We’re dangerous only to those who want more secular voices to have a virtual monopoly in public life.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Opinion • Politics

soundoff (5,318 Responses)
  1. chrisg

    Those who would re-negotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?"
    Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Conner on the Ten Commandments ruling

    October 17, 2011 at 10:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      People who quote others are often too dense to think for themselves.

      October 17, 2011 at 11:05 pm |
    • Braise the Lard


      Yet another insult from Tommy boy. You're certainly a miserable old chap aren't you?

      October 18, 2011 at 7:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      My little sycophant is jacking off yet again.

      I must really get under his skin, poor thing.

      October 18, 2011 at 9:37 am |
  2. John Richardson

    At all pro-lifers posting here:

    We all choose missions, or maybe our missions choose us. In any case, my own greatest personal mission concerns the massive numbers of homeless animals in our society. So I work as a behavioral expert and adoption counsellor at an animal shelter, have adopted more than a dozen and a half shelter dogs over the years, have fostered easily twice as many more and have donated thousands of dollars to the cause and have made several successful fund raising appeals for various specific cases or worthy rescues in dire need. While I've also commented on proposed legislation both in hearings and via email to legislative point people, I DON'T spend a lot of time pushing for laws that will turn the homeless animal problem into a primarily police/judicial matter, as the police and justice system simply aren't equipped to truly solve any of the problems underlying the homeless animal problem.

    Now, all of you who call yourself pro-life, what exactly have you done for unwanted children? Be specific. How many have you adopted? How many have you fostered? How much money have you donated or raised to help either unwanted children or mothers who want to keep their children who are in desperate financial shape? What do you do for a living and how does that affect the issues surrounding unwanted pregnancies, unwanted children and/or mothers or other parents in financial dire straits? Do you focus on prohibiting abortion because you feel all other manner of helping prevent unwanted pregnancies or helping mothers bear to term without jeopardizing health or incurring ruinous economic burdens have truly been tried and found wanting? Or are there other reasons?

    October 17, 2011 at 9:00 pm |
    • Muneef

      John Rich.

      I knew there is goodness and kindness in you...and may GOD rewards you for your efforts...amen.

      Now about what you said in regard of adopting parentless children..I understand many American go over seas for adopting children from and mainly south American countries or islands...even few had taken from Africa... So why would they do that when there are many north American born parentless children awaiting to be looked up on to...?
      Find Americans and Europeans are more happy to adopt a pet animal rather than a child...! So you might find parents for your animal care project than finding any adopting parents for the parentless children...!

      October 17, 2011 at 9:16 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Muneef does have a point. John, you have a good heart but you start your post talking about adoption of animals but to a pro-life person they would question why the haste to push for killing a child in the womb but while not pushing the same spirit for adoptions.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:21 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Muneef Thanks for your kind words and blessing.

      To be fair, animals are a big commitment, but nothing on the order of having children! And the most common alternatives to adopting homeless animals is buying them in pet stores or from breeders. Relatively few people maintain their own breeding stock and we'd be better off if the number was even smaller. In any case, the norm is to take animals in. The norm for kids is to have your own. So I think the mentality switch we'd need to have to increase child adoptions will prove an even bigger challenge than the already ample challenge of getting people to adopt their pets from shelters and rescues.

      As for why Americans adopt from foreign lands (some of which have "baby mills" disturbingly analogous to puppy and kitten mills) rather than adopt domestically is one of the HUGE questions I myself have.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:27 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Question, when you want to adopt a dog or puppy is it automatic that they spay or neuter? My neighbor when I was growing up had their family dog clipped and the dog was not the same.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:32 pm |
    • AdoptiveMom

      Hi John,

      I wanted to respond to your post asking pro-lifers what we're doing to walk the talk.

      My church has done quite a bit to create a culture of adoption. I'd say over half the families in the church have adopted at least one child. I know of two families that have adopted 5 children and they plan to keep going. Additionally, we have a fund that helps adoptive parents to pay the legal expenses associated with adoption which are quite steep. Also, a growing number of parents are fostering. We (my family) give about 2500 per year to a crisis pregnancy center. Also, each month CPC's sponsor a huge "baby shower" for pregnant moms to be who have chosen life so that she will be fully equipped with everything she needs when she has her baby. There are also mentoring programs for these moms, parenting and job-training classes, a clothing closet with baby clothes and maternity clothes, financial and childcare assistance – whatever we can do to help them out, we do our best to see it done. I've never had a single mom come back to me teling me how much she wishes she had had that abortion.

      I don't really give any money to Pro-Life as such and I don't think I'm doing anything in particular to end legal abortion as we know it other than vote for pro-life candidates. As far as I can tell, having pro-life Presidents and Congressmen and even Supreme Court justices hasn't made much difference but hope springs eternal.

      Thanks so much for your question.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:34 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Mark I am simply asking pro-lifers what practical things are they actually doing to lessen the problems that lead to abortions. I am trying to make euthanasia of animals rarer and am doing a lot on several levels to impact the number as best I can and to encourage others to join in and bring that number down further, NO ONE, not even the people at No KIll Nation, spend a minute of their precious time advocating to make euthanasia illegal. If there was a way that could make it disappear overnight (except in extreme cases of truly vicious animals and in cases where it is genuinely merciful), we'd be all in. But it is patently ludicrous to think that some ham-fisted police solution would count as such a method and no one wastes an ounce of breath even talking about it.

      Dogs and cats aren't kids, but I'm struck at how many people pound their chest in opposition to abortion who never mention ever having adopted or fostered any kids and who don't ever seem to talk about what sorts of alternatives to abortion they work to promote or even mention groups doing such work that they donate to. They just want to sic the police on pregnant women and doctors. It just looks bizarre from where I stand and what I do.

      Now, my own heart would love to be uncompromisingly pro-choice. But my head looks at how prohibitions and police actions have generally turned out when used as methods of social policy and I get real worried that my heart really ought to beware what it wishes for. And then even the part of me that finds abortion repulsive looks at all these advocates who want to punish, punish, punish and I think what a mess it would be if my own mission were manned mostly by people of that ilk.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:42 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Mark More and more shelters and almost all rescues spay/neuter before adopting an animal out. The overwhelming majority are as good as ever or better after the operation.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:46 pm |
    • John Richardson


      You and your church rock and you are the sort of pro-lifer I would be happy and indeed proud to work with! I will remain a conscientious objector to any proposed judicial "war on abortion", but I would love to work to help promote a culture where there are more viable alternatives to abortion. As someone who is childless by choice, I suspect my own most natural role would be in pregnancy prevention. I don't have a ton of time or money to donate, but it would soothe my heart to be able to day I've done SOMETHING, as long as that something is genuinely constructive and not destructive.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:51 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Whoops! I meant to say that my heart would love to be uncompromisingly pro-life!!!!!!

      One day I will learn to proofread. I really, really will, Some day ....

      October 17, 2011 at 9:54 pm |
    • Chad

      @John "Whoops! I meant to say that my heart would love to be uncompromisingly pro-life!!!!!!"

      Awesome! we found something we agree on ! Good for you.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Look at all this religious butt-kissing here. What a waste of time.

      October 17, 2011 at 11:06 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Chad There's probably a lot that we agree on. But I have to say, my loathing for pseudo-scientific creationist apologetics is intense. It's a major issue for me. So I'm not overcome with a case of the warm fuzzies just yet.

      But in this topic, yes, my heart would love to be unabashedly pro-life, but my head rules my heart and is convinced that unwanted pregnancies are not the sort of problem that police and prison guards can solve. So put me in the "make it safe, legal and rare" category, only I really mean all three, not just the first two while the third item is there as window dressing. I challenged pro-lifers (and a grand total of ONE could point to constructive action on her part so far). So fair is fair, and I hereby challenge pro-choicers and ask them: We know at least some of what you are doing to keep abortion safe and legal. What if anything are you doing to make it rare?

      And I'll be the first to admit that I can't point to much, except the sort of general charitable giving that combats poverty, which presumably has some relevant positive effect. But I don;t do anything truly focussed on the matter at hand.

      Then again, what do YOU do, Chad, to help make unwanted pregnancies less common or adoption more popular?

      October 18, 2011 at 7:12 am |
    • Mirosal

      Chad is doing all he can on his part to combat unwanted pregnancies ... he's doing HIS part because no woman would have him in the first place!! lol So don't blame Chad if someone gets pregnant, it wasn't him!! lol

      October 18, 2011 at 7:26 am |
    • chad

      @John "Then again, what do YOU do, Chad, to help make unwanted pregnancies less common or adoption more popular?"

      Actually I do quite a bit for the pro-life effort, but with $$ not my time (I dont volunteer at any centers for pregnant moms, I do work at homeless shelters but I guess that doesnt count)..

      A bit of an intriguing question you pose though.. Obviously there is no shortage of couples wanting to adopt, so figuring out what to do with babies after they are born isnt an issue (unlike perhaps dogs/cats). We dont spay/neuter humans, so I guess you would want me to dispense contraceptives at high schools, that kind of thing?

      I would argue that by being part of a Christian Church with an active youth ministry, I am being a part of creating an environment where "wait until you are married" is embraced and by doing so reduces unwanted pregnancies.

      October 18, 2011 at 8:21 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      @Chad: Asking someone to wait until they are married or in some area's what is better known as the 'abstinence pledge' has proven not to work. You can't expect hormones to be controlled like that, it's simply not that easy. Kudos to those who do wait but those people are few and far between. Instead of asking them to wait, we need to be educating them on birth control practices and ensuring these young people have those resources available to them. S.ex is not something to make these kids ashamed of...it is a purely natural act.

      October 18, 2011 at 8:30 am |
    • Muneef

      John Rich.

      If what I will paste here with happening to humans then I wonder what happens to animal pets?
      check that at BBC News;

      America's child death shame;
      Why is the problem of violence against children so much more acute in the US than anywhere else in the industrialised world, asks Michael Pet-it, President of Every Child Matters.

      Over the past 10 years, more than 20,000 American children are believed to have been killed in their own homes by family members. That is nearly four times the number of US soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 


      October 18, 2011 at 6:52 pm |
    • Muneef

      Am not sure why then fight all this war over children abortion when no one wants to adopt or even take good care of them? Let be born dead than born alive suffering life by all means as unwanted heavy liability...!! Honestly it is very painful issue that is.results from uncontrolled $ex..adultery...

      October 18, 2011 at 7:00 pm |
    • P Nickel

      In my part of the country, adoption of children is a racket. The amount of bureacracy and paperwork is financially draining. Not being able to have children our first ten years was a sorrowful experience. Then, being unable to adopt due to trememdous financial outlays involved, that only compounded the issue. Anger, resentment, sadness, depression, all these emotions resulting from lack of financial "security", and the unfulfiilled desire to have a family. The state has made this one of America's most difficult prospects, adopting children, by overlording and impoverishing those who are of common means, and yet could provide decent and loving home for children. It is a crime against society.

      October 19, 2011 at 3:52 am |
  3. Muneef

    Masih ad-Dajjal the "AntiChrist";
    Hadith attributed to Muhammad give many signs of the appearance of the Dajjal...The following signs are;

    People will stop offering the prayers
    Dishonesty will be the way of life
    Falsehood will become a virtue
    People will mortgage their faith for worldly gains
    Us-ury and bribery will become legitimate
    Imbeciles would rule over the wise
    Blood of innocents would be shed
    Pride will be taken on acts of oppression
    The rulers will be corrupt
    The scholars will be hypocrites
    Adultery will be rampant
    The liars and treacherous will be respected
    There will be acute famine at the time
    There will be no shame amongst people
    Children would challenge their mothers
    Youngsters would perform marital relationship with their parents
    Many people would worship Satan
    There would be no respect for elder people

    More at link;

    October 17, 2011 at 7:42 pm |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    What do you suppose would occur if the government were allowed to decide that women had to continue a pregnancy no matter what they wished to do? If the government can force women to carry a pregnancy to term, it can just as easily decide that a woman must have an abortion, if said government determines that the fetus is going to impose an undue burden on society.

    Do you idiot ever stop to think?

    October 17, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Sounds like China.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:12 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Right. I'm about as unenthusiastic a pro-choicer as you will find. But the notion that making abortion illegal will make it go away is absurd. Just look at how other prohibitions like the drug war have panned out. People causing or having unwanted pregnancies is w/o question a problem. But not every problem can be solved by throwing police at it. Indeed, very few can. It should be the social policy method of absolute last resort.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:44 pm |
    • Sensible...

      Tom, tom...up until Roe v Wade, the government did require women to actually give birth to the life formed in them. Were there government forced abortions then? I don't think so. Here is a question and answer from a PLanned Parenthood advertisement from 1964:

      "Is [birth control] an abortion?

      Definitely not. An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely postpones the meaning of life."

      My how the brainwashing has had its effect.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:48 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Tom'Tom, the argument is the same as it always is, that it is a human being and deserves the right to live. The abortion arguments from Pro-Life to Pro-Choice is something that neither side will bend on and merit can be found possibly on all sides.


      October 17, 2011 at 8:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Then your argument is moot. No one has a right to live from the time of conception, you idiot.

      Fetuses and zygotes die all the time.

      There's no "right" to live. There is only a right to life once born.

      Get a freakin' clue, you moron.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      IN sensible, you're an idiot. Abortion has been legal for much longer than it was EVER illegal. The founding fathers were well aware of it, as it was advertised publicly. They chose not to create laws prohibiting it because they were exponentially smarter than you. They KNEW it was a private matter and NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. Why don't you know that?

      Oh, that's right. You're an idiot who never got past your junior year in high school. And you weren't on the college track, either.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, yeah, and as to your claim that abortion creates sterility, go ahead and cite proof from something from THIS century, you f*witted twit. Abortion does nothing of the sort. Prove otherwise or be proven a liar and an idiot.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:05 pm |
    • John Richardson

      A useful review of the history of abortion in the US: http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/history_abortion.html

      Those who think that abortions were universally illegal before Roe v Wade are wildly wrong.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      As usual, none of you know what you're talking about.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      As usual, I was wrong. I usually base all of my arguments on opinion, rather than research.


      I'm still far more intelligent than ANY of you. I am a P.E. teacher for a prestigious elementary school. I've been doing this for over 30 years. I have far more life experience and knowledge than all of you.

      October 17, 2011 at 11:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Aww. I'm so touched that you're upset with me! I must be on the right track.

      October 18, 2011 at 9:39 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Here are the facts on David Reardon, who is nothing more than an anti-choice nut-job: A graduate of the University of Illinois department of electrical engineering,[3] Reardon began researching the effects of abortion in the mid-1980s. Reardon subsequently received a Ph.D in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction.[3][4][5]

      Like you, little sycophant, this guy is simply making up facts to suit his agenda.

      Look up the study that was done just a few years back. It examined a very large number of women and discovered that those who'd had abortions were no more likely to suffer any mental health problems than those who were pregnant and didn't have abortions.

      You'll have to do better than posting propaganda from some ant-choice site, moron.

      October 18, 2011 at 9:45 am |
  5. Wes S.

    Nonimus, actually, Abraham's son would have been in his teen's. Babies aren't instructed to carry firewood. There is also much more context and importance which you are disregarding with your comment, which, a forum such as this is not the best of arenas for this kind of talk as it tends to turn into a battleground of namely calling and hot tempers, so I don't blame you for not bringing it up, I would just appreciate it if your comments would reflect some meaningful, conscious thought on the subject that sought truth–not silly, meaningless jabs.

    October 17, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @Wes S.,
      Technically, I didn't say Abraham's son was a baby, but I understand your point. Perhaps I should have written it more clearly. For example, "If God said to kill a baby, like He told Abraham to kill his own teenage son, would that be considered a 'legit' reason to kill a baby?"

      I do agree that there was more context around the incident described in the Bible, however, I would ask what possible context could justify a man, on orders from God, killing his own son?

      I also agree that all too frequently these blogs turn in such battlegrounds, however, I would appreciate it if your own comments would reflect some meaningful understanding of those comments you are name-calling as "silly, meaningless jabs."

      My point, I think, was a valid response to the question at hand. If you don't agree, please explain why.

      October 17, 2011 at 7:44 pm |
  6. jj

    Extremists of all faiths are dangerous.

    October 17, 2011 at 6:34 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Hear! Hear!

      October 17, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Is it just the Faith or can we point to many extreme views in different segments of society.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:54 pm |
    • John Richardson

      I vote for extremism in general. Certainly there are lots of no-faith-based political extremists who are at least as scary and disgusting as the worst religious yahoos.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:04 pm |
  7. biblicalaaronc

    My response to Mohler's infantile cheerleading for Bachmann and Perry is posted at biblicalaaronc over at blogspot

    October 17, 2011 at 5:47 pm |
    • anonymous34682+1

      The only thing infantile is thinking Mohler is cheerleading for a political candidate. What he IS doing is pointing out how certain people try to make a boogyman out of evangelicals. You simply prove his point, as if any additional proof is needed.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:51 pm |
    • biblicalaaronc

      The anonymous poster clearly did not actually read the blogspot article at biblicalaaronc and simply produced an "I know you are but what am I" response which is textbook infant behavior.
      Did you lack the courage or the reading comprehension to see what I wrote? Here it is:
      http://biblicalaaronc.blogspot.com/2011/10/cnn-asks-evangelical-mohler-if.html .
      Why don't you debate my on that website?

      Mohler did defend both Bachmann and Perry, despite the fact that both are batspit cr*zy and advocate a variety of extreme measures, including armed seccession from the United States in Perry's case, and the claim that HPV vaccines lead to mental retardation in Bachmann's case.

      October 17, 2011 at 11:51 pm |
  8. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Christians are all morons. Every last one of them.

    October 17, 2011 at 5:34 pm |
    • Say What?

      What would you like to see strong in America if you believe all Christians are morons?

      October 17, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      My stalker is jacking off again. This is the first time I've even been on my computer since Oct. 16 at around 11 pm.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:18 pm |
    • Central Scrutinizer

      I'm not coming back to these comment sections again. I've had enough.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
    • martinipaul

      Scut: I prayed for you. This is only the start. Perhaps, I shall pray for tom, tom to stop molesting that pig.

      October 17, 2011 at 7:20 pm |
    • Muneef

      Tom P.

      Is feeling lonely to go alone with no friendly faces in Hell so he is inviting as many as he could to join him in his loneliness..!

      October 17, 2011 at 9:21 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      All this coming from the guy who believes in allah. I cut a hole in the koran to take on camping trips to use as a makeshift toilet seat.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Poor baby. You must be really hurt. I feel just awful for you.

      October 18, 2011 at 9:46 am |
    • Muneef

      Tom P.

      It's all about intentions and for your intentions you will be punished or rewarded on earth and on resurrection...as it is for me I would say what;

      "Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Messenger of Allah;
       "Verily, I am the lord of the camels. As for the House, it has its Lord Who will defend it."

      Maybe you should read this interesting story from the History of the Arabian Peninsular..the Abyssinians in Makkah to destroy the "Kabah" told as in Q/Sura 105 The Elephant .. 

      Reading will help you to realize that GOD does defend his own... Therefore my honest and sincere advice to you would be not to do as you said would do because such intentions will only harm you when your conscience will make you suffer giving you no peace of soul... Hope you wouldn't try that nothing deserves as such sin by all means of laws whether earthly and heavenly...!!

      October 18, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
  9. ashrakay

    @Mirosal, Thank you. I'm aware. They're all invisible, magical, fantasy superheroes. It doesn't really matter what you call them. I just enjoy pointing out to christians when they're quoting from a muslim book.

    October 17, 2011 at 4:31 pm |
  10. dmilem

    I admittedly live in a bit of a bubble, but am truly shocked by the vitriol I've seen on display as a result of Dr. Mohler's post....and coming primarily from those who claim to espouse tolerance as the virtue to end all virtues. Hmmmmm...What are my knuckle-dragging buddies and I to think of all this? I, for one, will stick with Dr. Mohler and the Jesus we both love and serve.

    October 17, 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      dmilem..........Paul was not silent and it's time we not be silent. Stand for what you believe, it's time we become true defenders of the faith and of the innocent life that God has created.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • tallulah13

      You can love your god all you want. You just can't legislate him.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:35 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      tallulah13......Don't have to legislate him. Nothing happens that he does not control. He don't need me to legislate him. He gives the legislators their next breath.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:37 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Prove that your god exists, much less gives people breath. Until you have evidence, your god is just as real as Zeus or Odin. Mythology has no place in the laws of a secular land.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      tallulah13..........prove he don't!

      October 17, 2011 at 4:47 pm |
    • dmilem

      I don't want to legislate any part of the Gospel and a re-reading of Dr. Mohler's post yields nothing that hints at any such thing. On the contrary. We are, as Dr. Mohler says, " committed to participatory democracy" Those who truly love the Gospel are committed to the truth that forcing it upon others gains nothing. However, It's proclamation is our joy-filled responsibility.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Good, just keep all the mumbo-jumbo out of my childrens' science classes.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • dmilem

      Are you referring to evolution or creationism as mumbo-jumbo? I'm not clear because I've mentioned neither and, upon re-reading of the original post, neither did Dr. Mohler. Again., our biggest concern is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:12 pm |
    • Nonimus

      From the article:
      "When Rick Perry questioned the theory of evolution, Dawkins launched into full-on apoplexy, wondering aloud how anyone who questions evolution could be considered intelligent, even as polls indicate that a majority of Americans question evolution."

      Please, don't attempt to legislate facts. Especially when they are as wrong as Creationism and it's current evolution of Intelligent Design.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:21 pm |
    • tallulah13

      DefenderofFetuses, prove that Zeus doesn't exist. Prove that there isn't a unicorn living in the house of every legislator, telling them what to think. You are the one crediting god for "giving breath," therefore, it is your job to prove that this is indeed the case. Otherwise, you are just expressing your unfounded opinion.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • JF

      Again., our biggest concern is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

      I believe that fits into the category of "Mumbo Jumbo".

      October 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Creationism and anything else that is anti-science. You know, anti-Big Bang cosmology, anti-evolution, anti-4.5 billion year old Earth, anti-stem cell research. Remember, the early church taught that it was against god's will to cut open the human body. Imagine how much the church held back medical science then because doctors weren't allowed to perfect surgery. Just as the church held back astronomy by the house arrest of Galileo and the subsequent silencing of Copernicus (and others). Now it's more subtle and not just the Roman church. There are several churches now working against science and continuing to spread their fiction.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • tallulah13

      All I said is that you can belief what you want but you can't legislate it. You can participate all you want. I don't know why you think anyone is stopping you. However, if you try to create laws based on your religion that subvert the freedoms of this secular nation, you will find that people will oppose you.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • dmilem

      I stand corrected with regard to the reference to Perry. Facts are facts and evolution was mentioned.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
    • dmilem

      I'm not at all surprised that you would view the proclamation of the Gospel as mumbo-jumbo. A bloody Cross is offensive.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
    • Magic

      dmilem: "A bloody Cross is offensive."

      Yes, it is... but what's even more offensive is your belief in and worship of a bloodthirsty "God" who would demand this kind of atrocity and would be appeased by it.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:56 pm |
    • ttwp

      It's sad that many today are offended of the cross of Christ. It's not surprising though. Christ Himself said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” One is truly in darkness if they do not see the beauty and love of the cross of Jesus Christ. Look at the cross upon which Jesus died and realize that it was not nails that held Him to the cross...but love.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:06 pm |
    • Flucobaseball

      "anti-big bang"

      You do realize that there are those who adhere to evolution who do not agree upon the big bang? You seem to be parroting what you hear.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:33 pm |
  11. LIfeWarrior

    I dont know why my response didnt post but I am leaving work. Email me and I will answer your questions.
    gcwarrior_2 @ yahoo .com

    October 17, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • tallulah13

      No thank, you. I prefer to discuss in a public forum. Other people deserve to know why you feel qualified to judge them. You probably had problems posting because you had one of the letter combinations that the automatic filters finds offensive.

      By the way, I hope you were trying to say that you were leaving FOR work, unless you are self-employed, or your boss is okay with you spending your shift commenting on internet message boards.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    • LifeWarrior

      No i'm a receptionist I can pretty much do whatever as long as I answer the phone. I dont think there was anything offensive but I will try to repost when I get home.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • J.W

      I comment on here at work all the time. I still get all my work done. I am just a good mult-itasker.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • Really?

      "I comment on here at work all the time. I still get all my work done"

      Yeah, but just think how much more you would be able to do if you weren't on here. I would love to see the internet use policy for the company you are working for since most state for work purposes only. Plus the company didn't hire you to be commenting on a site no related to your job. Regardless, it's stealing no matter how you look at it.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      People who use an employer's computer and spend the time they're paid to work commenting on a public forum are cheating their employer. They are dishonest and liars.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And before you say anything, I have every right to judge all of you as I see fit. I am better than all of you. There isn't anyone here that can match my superior intellect.

      October 17, 2011 at 10:41 pm |
  12. BoldGeorge

    We seem like a threat to the secular world because we preach repentance from our sins through Jesus Christ, thus being accountable towards God for our thoughts and deeds in this life. But us being "dangerous"? Unless some misinformed folks think that we are the ones who piloted 4 planes as guided-missiles on 9/11, then I would understand. But no, that was another religion; we are not of that faith nor of that type of faith that need to, through physical aggression and torture, make our point and enforce our belief system on anyone. I realize there are radical Christians and extremists out there that give true Christianity a bad name.

    The only reason why the world says that we are a 'threat' is because we preach repentance, salvation and turning your life around...in other words, stop doing what you were comfortably doing against a Holy God. We once were lost, confused (without even knowing it) and hopeless and ignorant to what our fate would be in our lost state and with our repentance and complete turn-around towards God through Jesus Christ, we now have to answer to Him from then on.

    People usually DON'T want to answer or be accountable to ANYONE, much less someone they haven't even "seen". And that's what we promote...that we all will be held accountable for our beliefs, for our thoughts,for our actions and for our non-beliefs and inaction. Hence, we're branded as being judgmental, critics, accusers and aggressors and at the end of the day, as haters, when in fact it's all the opposite. I was 'hateful' toward these 'haters' before, but I am so thankful to God and to some of these 'haters' for helping me come to the knowledge of the Truth.

    October 17, 2011 at 4:15 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      As one person put on this forum "few christians do as they should" so your point is mute.


      October 17, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • ***

      * it's "moot", not "mute"

      October 17, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "* it's "moot", not "mute""

      I was making a joke moron. It's mute. As in shut up. 😉

      October 17, 2011 at 4:58 pm |
    • Scott - other

      I am far more accountable and a much better person now than I ever was when I was a Christian. I’m also far more comfortable in my own skin than I ever was then.

      No I do not say evangelicals are a threat because they uphold some high standard of behavior (which most seem to thing applies to everyone but themselves. I say they are a threat because the majority of them would be thrilled to make the US a Christian theocracy. Of course many of them will deny it in public, but, Muslim terrorist will deny supporting violence and talk about the religion of peace when it suits their purpose

      October 17, 2011 at 9:40 pm |
  13. Levi

    Evangelicals I'm with, but an "Evangelical Politician" I look at with a deeper scrutiny, the bible tells us to "Test ALL things", this includes ALL people, just because one confesses Christianity doesn't mean their Orthodox or hold to Essential Christian Doctrine, being in error is one thing but deceiving the body of Christ and the World is another thing. Be mindful of the professed "Christian" that sits in Caesars House... To God be the glory amen

    October 17, 2011 at 4:06 pm |
  14. D

    Yes, you are dangerous. And clueless as to HOW dangerous.

    You spin "anti-choice" into "pro-life" as there are pro-choicers who do not believe in abortion, but also know that what a woman does with her body is her business.

    You limit scientific research that could make huge advancements in medicine.

    You try to muddy science classes with disguised creationism.

    You deny rights to US citizens, treating them as second class, simply because they are gay.

    Play all high-and-mighty if you will...you ARE trying to push your religous agenda on America, and we are SICK of it. I am fine with you believing however you want. I am NOT fine with you not extending me the same courtesy. Get out of my schools, get out of my bedroom, get out of my life. Your freedoms and rights end where they start infringing on mine. That is what you evangelicals can't get through your heads. And quoting scripture at me does nothing but show me how ignorant you really are to the issues we have with you.

    October 17, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Collin

      I truly believe that science has proven that a fetus is a human being, and I worry about that child's rights. I don't understand why some consider it so evil and closed-minded to try to protect humans who are simply less developed than others. I believe we have a serious violation of human rights happening with millions being murdered every year. How can you condemn me for standing against this? I understand if you you come to a different conclusion about the status of the unborn, but we Christians believe that life is precious and weighty...sacred. The strong have an obligation to protect the weak, and those unable to speak.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You don't understand? What don't you grasp about the fact that women don't lose the rights to their lives when they get pregnant. You want women to be secondary to a fetus.

      Not going to happen.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:54 pm |
    • Ummm

      "but we Christians believe that life is precious and weighty...sacred. The strong have an obligation to protect the weak, and those unable to speak"

      The hypocrisy to the whole debate is that when abortion was illegal it causes all the unwanted children to be born, the crime rate goes up and increases the homeless population. What you don't get is you can spew your nonsense like the above sentence but actions speak louder than words. There are millions of children still waiting for loving homes, but christians like you do nothing, if christians really practiced what they preach there would be no need for orphanages and shelters in our communities. It's a woman's right to choose.

      October 17, 2011 at 7:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Collin says: "I worry about that child's rights." You aren't talking about a "child". You are talking about a fetus. Children and women have rights under law; fetuses don't.

      If you had any sense, you'd "worry" more about the rights of those born and stop interfering with THEIR rights.

      October 17, 2011 at 7:31 pm |
    • Scott - other


      October 17, 2011 at 9:46 pm |
  15. Reality

    From p. 75:

    As with most Christians, Mohler suffers from the Three B Syndrome, i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the flaws and fallacies of Christianity. The cure? Reading and rational thinking!!!!

    Synopsis of 21st Christianity based on the studies of Professors Crossan, Ludemann, Borg, Fredricksen et al:

    Jesus was an illiterate, Jewish, peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan se-cts.

    The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hit-ti-tes, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

    For added "pizz-azz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "fil-icider".

    Current RCC problems:

    Pedo-ph-iliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

    Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

    Current problems:

    Adu-lterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,–

    October 17, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
  16. DefenderofLife

    Yes we are dangerous: dangerous to the lies of Satan, dangerous to killing of innocent children, dangerous to the doctrine of selfishness, dangerous to immorality, dangerous to the destruction of the family, dangerous to the liberal agenda that is killing, destroying and starving the innocent and elderly, etc. etc. etc......Dangerous to Satan's plans to destroy all mankind. We are dangerous because we have truth, Jesus Christ, the ONLY light that defeats this present darkness, death, hell and the grave, THE ONLY WAY! If we are not a threat then why are we targeted. If we aren't on to something we would just be as any other religion or group deserving of our rights and freedom, but that's not the case with Born Again followers of Jesus Christ. Know why? Cause we KNOW THE TRUTH and the truth can set YOU free, and Satan don't want you free, why else the determination to snuff us out. Something to think about. He loves it when you kill your children, when you use drugs, when you are full of hate and anger, when you live immorally, when you choose a life of evil over a life with Jesus Christ. He wants you ignorant to Jesus' love for you so he can lay claim to your soul. The whole world wants to shut us up, why would they care if we're just a bunch of dreamers? That's right! Cause we're not! Why would anyone waste their time on dreamers who believe lies? They wouldn't. We're not running around killing people or hurting anyone so why all the attention. We all know why, cause we've been given TRUTH! And we are dangerous to the evil way people WANT to live and Satan's plans to destroy you. People want to kill their babies out of selfishness and tell themselves it is okay, but deep down any one with half a brain can see that such an act is only out of selfishness and the love of money which is the root of all evil. A child is a blessing and gift from God, a blessing with a God given purpose before you even knew you were pregnant. God has a plan for every life that he creates. No they are not a blob, they are living God breathed souls that even abortion can not destroy. It's the mother's who have to suffer with that decision, knowing their child was torn apart with their own permission, the baby is immediately back in the arms of it's loving Creator. Who knows if you would have given birth to the next Einstein, or Tim Tebow? If you have made that mistake then you can be forgiven and have a new beginning and be with your child again someday.
    I'm proud to be dangerous to Satan's plans for you! The day that the world stops looking at us as dangerous is the day that everyone better start worrying. Join Us and your eyes will be opened to truth and you can be dangerous to evil too! Jesus Christ loves you so much that he gave his life for each of you. All you have to do is repent (turn away) from your sins and ask him to come and live in your heart, read the word and obey and pray (talk to him) daily, he will guide you the rest of the way, and if you make a mistake, guess what, he will forgive you and welcome you back. That's Love, what most of us are out there searching for! God Bless You! He loves you ALL dearly and he is waiting to give you life eternal and make you DANGEROUS TO SATAN, HOW COOL IS THAT!

    October 17, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
    • Nonimus

      And since there is no Satan, I guess you're done.
      You won! Congratulations! Now let the rest of us do our jobs.

      (p.s. I didn't read to whole comment, sorry.)

      October 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • Pro Life

      Well said!

      October 17, 2011 at 3:38 pm |
    • Pro Life

      DefenderofLife-The earlier 'well said' comment was meant for you.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • Wow

      "join Us and your eyes will be opened to truth and you can be dangerous to evil too! "

      Nope, your delusions are what is evil and bad for society. It's loony-bins like you that need to be locked up and throw away the key.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      At Nonimus... You think there is no Satan but you are sadly mistaken and unfortunately you will find that out, sounds like, too late maybe. What job would that be that I'm keeping you from? No, I'm sorry you didn't read it, it does not hurt me, I already know truth. Unfortunately many will close their eyes and ears to truth, that's the reason for the tribulation. A Horrible Wake Up Call. Just hoping you could be saved from that suffering. God Bless You Just the Same. He still loves you 🙂

      October 17, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Wow

      "You think there is no Satan but you are sadly mistaken "

      Yo sweetheart, it's a fictional character made up to keep nut cases like you living in fear so you'll do what you're told. What is scary is you're probably hearing voices too right? LMAO! It amazes me is if you weren't hiding behind the label of christian you would be locked up in the loony bin taking your meds every day.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "...you are sadly mistaken and unfortunately you will find that out..."
      Why exactly do you think that Satan does exist?

      October 17, 2011 at 4:13 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      Nonimus.........one big reason is the hate the spews from atheists.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      Wow....why so the rest of you can be guilt free cause no one is condemning the killing of innocent babies.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      Pro Life.....God Bless you my Brother or Sister. Keep up the Good Fight! It's time we speak out!

      October 17, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • tallulah13

      DefenderofFetuses? You are not defending life, if you did, you would also be defending the living women you seek to control. You are only defending what you want to defend. The choice to have an abortion is a private one, made based on personal circu-mstance. You are not qualified to make that choice for others. You are only qualified to choose for yourself.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Atheists are not the only group that displays hate (and I would argue not the most hateful either); every theist group that existed has displayed hate at one time or another, which leads me to think that it is a trait of human beings and their less intelligent origins rather than any divinely applied attribute.
      Regardless though, how would that imply the existence of Satan anyway?

      October 17, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      tallulah13....If a fetus is not life how does it grow? I am defending the women. Defending them from a lifetime of depression, crying, regret, tears , nightmare and hell. The abortion gurus don't tell them that part. No child-free pleasure in life, drugs, or alcohol, will ever cure those illnesses that abortion causes the women that you state you are so worried about. The suffering they will do the rest of their lives is also private and you won't be there sharing in that with them. Only Christ Jesus care about that and can heal those wounds. I am qualified because I got it directly from the giver of life and he says he hates hands that shed innocent blood, so there!

      October 17, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      tallulah13....If a fetus is not life how does it grow? I am defending the women. Defending them from a lifetime of depression, crying, regret, tears , nightmares, and hell. The abortion gurus don't tell them that part. No child-free pleasure in life, drugs, or alcohol, will ever cure those illnesses that abortion causes the women that you state you are so worried about. The suffering they will do the rest of their lives is also private and you won't be there sharing in that with them. Only Christ Jesus cares about that and can heal those wounds. I am qualified because I got it directly from the giver of life and he says he hates hands that shed innocent blood, so there!

      October 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      Nonimus.....cause he is the father of sin. Hate is sin. Jesus loves you believe me or not, that's your choice, he loves you just the same. Try him.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:49 pm |
    • tallulah13

      DefenderofFetuses, a fetus is a potential human. It grows because that is the nature of the cellular processes of reproduction. Sometimes it grows in a manner which is not compatible with life. Sometimes a fetus is miscarried, often in women who desperately want a child.

      You also don't get to decide what the women who have had abortions feel about it. Yes, some may regret, but others live their lives with perhaps a little sorrow, but with the knowledge that they did what they had to in a difficult situation. I suspect that you got all your information on the topic from a pastor, or you had an abortion and have regretted it ever since. I'm sorry for you if that's the case, but you have no moral high ground and do not have the right to control the lives of others.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:54 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      tallulah13.........think what you want but my way is win win for the mother and child. your way is lose lose for both. don't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Go ahead and choose death, and you will reap what you sew.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • AGuest9

      As long as "keep up the good fight" includes feeding those unwanted children who weren't aborted, right? You know, the ones who live their lives on welfare, disrupting classes in the public schools until they are arrested for selling drugs or murder, then live the rest of their lives in and out of prison. Yes, that's a great fight. I want to have to pay for as little of that "fight" as possible, too. Let's pay for education and science and space research. You know, things that are WORTH paying for, not more prisons to keep housing grown "unwanted children".

      October 17, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • tallulah13

      You can't decide what is win or lose for anyone, because you don't know the circu.mstance of every unwanted pregnancy. All you have is your personal fantasy and the desire to but-t in where you have no business. I have no problem with you believing whatever you want. But the second that you or those of your faith try to legislate your religious beliefs, I will indeed be among those who will endeavor to stop you.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:10 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "cause he is the father of sin. Hate is sin."
      Not much of an argument... Anyway, if Satan is the father of sin, that sounds like an excellent argument for the abortion of at least one child. Yeah?

      October 17, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "You will reap what you sew." You are a brain-dead dimwit who never got past high school, and you think you have some business telling people who actually possess brains and got an education what they should do with their uteruses?

      As if. You are beyond stupid.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:39 pm |
    • Webster

      ""You will reap what you sew."


      Here's one way to remember it: "You rip what you sew" - "You reap what you sow" 🙂

      October 17, 2011 at 7:04 pm |
    • Scott - other

      Yes, finally the real truth leaks out of one of you and the others flock in to agree. This is exactly why you are dangerous to a free society; because you will brand anything you disagree with as “SATAN” and do everything in your power, legal, illegal or violent to destroy it. You believe you are god’s good Christian solders going to war to destroy Satan just like the Nazi soldiers convinced themselves they were good Christian solders doing god’s work, destroying Satan when they destroyed the Jews. Go back and read your post only replace Satan with Jews and see if it doesn’t sound like German propganda

      And before you start screaming that the Nazis weren’t Christian, look up the percentage of the German population that was Christian at the start of the war. The answer is most of them and those are the good Christians that became the Nazi army

      October 17, 2011 at 10:08 pm |
  17. paint zoom complaints

    Have you ever considered that Christians are viewed as dangerous because of Revelation 19?

    October 17, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Not sure why someone would be worried about a prophecy they don't believe in. Assuming, of course, that your usage of the word Christian includes everyone that believes Revelations to be true/word of God/etc.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Have you ever considered that the bible is simply bronze age mythology?

      October 17, 2011 at 4:34 pm |
    • AGuest9

      That medieval work of science fiction at the end of the bible? Read it for kicks...

      October 17, 2011 at 5:09 pm |
    • Scott - other

      @ Nonimus: “Not sure why someone would be worried about a prophecy they don't believe in”. I’m worried because you believe it. Just like I’m worried about what the Taliban believe in even though I don’t

      October 17, 2011 at 10:13 pm |
  18. Doc Vestibule

    When the American south was forced to rescind the Jim Crow laws and accept racial integration, it was Baptists who most strongly opposed equality.
    Wallie Criswell, an extremely popular and influential Southern Baptist Minister famously said "Let them integrate! Let them sit up there in their dirty shirts and make all their fine speeches. But they are all a bunch of infidels, dying from the neck up."
    Scarcely half a century later, the zeitgeist has shifted so radically that such open racism is considered abhorrent to the very same Christian sect that spouted scripture to justify insti.tutionalized bigotry.
    I fervently hope that the prevailing Baptist condemnation of ho.mose.xuality will soon be viewed with the same sense of shame that the memory of segragation elicits.

    October 17, 2011 at 2:52 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Wasn't Senator Byrd (D) a klan Grand Wizard? Seems that the Dems are not much for helping African Americans either.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • WTD

      You say that as if all Baptists thought that way, but in truth the Baptist Convention split in half over that.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
  19. LIfeWarrior

    I'm The Best,
    The heart and brain arent the only things forming at that point I was only using the two of them because of what you and Chuckles were saying. The human body is much more complex than a fly.

    Yes, life begins at the point of conception. It's not about what our lovely government says when they decided it's only a life if it can live alone. The government doesnt make these children and have no right to decide when life begins.
    If God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb, that implies our souls were already there.

    October 17, 2011 at 2:34 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "The government doesnt make these children and have no right to decide when life begins."
      ... and you aren't making other people's children either, so let them decided.

      "If God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb, that implies our souls were already there."
      Thought this had nothing to do with the Bible?

      October 17, 2011 at 2:48 pm |
    • Precious

      I am too precious please do NOT KILL me!

      A Fetus.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      You're right, I'm not making their children, but the bible says to speak out for those who cannot speak for themselves. An aborted baby cannot speak for itself so I will.

      And It didnt have anything to do with the bible when I said that, but he brought up the thing about the baby having a soul, and having a soul is not a scientific thing it's biblical, so he brought it into the conversation and I was expressing my opinion.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • tallulah13

      When I think of abortion, I always think of the nine-year-old girl in Brazil who was ra-ped by her step-father, resulting in her becoming pregnant with twins. This child weighed less than 90 pounds, and would likely suffer greatly or even die if forced to carry the pregnancy to full term. In order to spare her life, her catholic mother and doctors decided that she should have an abortion. When the church found out, the mother and doctors were excommunicated. The rap-ist step-father was not, because apparently according to church doctrine, it is better to ra-pe a child than to save her life.

      I realize that this is not about the catholic church, but my point is that every situation has it's own complexities. Do you think your personal belief is more important than the life of a child who has already been victimized? Do you think your personal belief is more important than the considered choice of a woman who finds herself unable to carry a pregnancy to full term, because of health or economic reasons? If you oppose abortion, don't have one. But to take away that right is to tell that rap-ed child that she doesn't matter, or that woman that her life has no value, and frankly, you are not worthy of making that judgement.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "...so he brought it into the conversation and I was expressing my opinion."
      Fair enough. I haven't read the entire exchange.

      "You're right, I'm not making their children, but the bible says to speak out for those who cannot speak for themselves. An aborted baby cannot speak for itself so I will."
      And yet, here you are making it about the Bible. I'm confused.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:09 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      I am not making it about the bible I was simply telling you why I am arguing the facts with them.

      that absolutely breaks my heart that something like that happened to that little girl, and I said nothing about her life not being important. In situations like that, there should be something available to help the little girl but it shouldnt be some nasty clinic who will hurt the baby. If it can be proven that the child couldnt do it, I understand, but you know that isn't the way abortions usually go.
      Most of them are selfish reasons like what people will think of them or what it will do to their social life. In the case that it is economic reasons, there are so many people who want to adopt newborn babies because they cannot have babies on their own. They pay all doctors expenses and the mother gets paid for the adoption so in the end, it turns out financially better for her than to pay, or have out taxes pay for an abortion. No matter the reason, It's an innocent child.It just shouldnt be legal.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      A Candid Conversation between Two Species

      The Man: I am the predilect object of Creation, the centre of all that exists…
      The Tapeworm: You are exalting yourself a little. If you consider yourself the lord of Creation, what can I be, who feed upon you and am ruler in your entrails?
      The Man: You lack reason and an immortal soul.
      The Tapeworm: And since it is an established fact that the concentration and complexity of the nervous system appear in the animal scale as an uninterrupted series of graduations, where are we cut off? How many neurons must be possessed in order to have a soul and a little rationality?
      – Santiago Ramon y Cajal, Recollections of My Life

      Other animals, as unique as us, have predators that control population. We do not. We need predators; abortion clinics. We need plague; the pill.
      So yes, abortion is murder. Sure, abortion is the safest, most humane, most sensible “application” of murder we have. There’s no justification for it. It ideally would take the place of the other kinds of death by mammoth or tiger, and is arguably much better for the salvation of those who would have died of plague or infant pneumonia, members of society in whom we have invested education, health care and social programmes.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • tallulah13

      LifeWarrior, you have no idea why women have abortions. None at all. You demonize them because it supports your cause, but your personal prejudice is the only basis for your judgement. Until you walk in their shoes, you have absolutely no idea. EVERY situation is different because every person is different. You are so obsessed with fetuses that you can't see the lives right in front of you. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one, but it is not your place to decide for others.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:34 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      Give me one legit reason to kill a baby.something that isnt selfish or stupid.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • tallulah13

      LW: To save the life of a mother; because no woman should be required to bear the child of the person who ra-ped her; because the fetus is too damaged to survive for long; because they are impoverished, have no health care, and are already caring for a child or two; because their body is too young or too old, and a pregnancy would damage it... As I said, every reason is different because every life is different.

      Now your turn: What are your qualifications to decide what a woman does with her body? What medical degrees do you hold that allow you to judge when exactly a life begins? And what is your proof that the bible is the word of god, or that any god actually exists?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • ashrakay

      It's been estimated that 49 in 50 pregnancies terminate within one week of conception. As Sam Harris points out, this makes god one of the biggest abortionists of all time.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "Give me one legit reason to kill a baby.something that isnt selfish or stupid."
      Not that this would be a good reason for me, but perhaps you might consider it one.

      Because God said so, like He did to Abraham.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      LIfeWarrior, you crazies have no idea what the results would be if you nitwits ever got your way.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Precious, if a fetus ever says or rights a word, alert the media.

      Stupid posts like yours make people like you look more ridiculous than you already do.

      You have no more right to force a woman to continue a pregnancy than I have to force you to cut your hair.

      October 17, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Edit: "writes a word", not "rights a word".

      Sheesh; apparently, your stupidity is contagious.

      October 17, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
    • ashrakay

      The US has the worst child abuse record in the industrialized world. On average, an American child dies from neglect every five hours. Perhaps abortion isn't the worst fate for a fetus.

      October 17, 2011 at 9:37 pm |
  20. I'm The Best!

    Evangelical (E): We're going to make abortion illegal
    Atheist (A): Why would you do that? It helps with population control, it leads to less people in poverty if they can't afford to have a child, if they did have the kid then they would probably grow up with parents that either didn't want them or couldn't afford them. Having a child is not something that should accidently happen if you aren't ready for it.
    E: The Bible says it's bad.
    A: That's a stupid reason to do something. You should weigh the pros and cons of this and make a decision on that. You shouldn't base it on a book that has little to no insight to todays society.
    E: Are you calling the bible stupid? It's based on facts and everyone should follow it!
    A: I'm not saying the bible is stupid at all, I'm just saying that you shouldn't use it to tell other people what to do and how to live their lives. If you want to live your life by it, that's fine, but don't force it down other peoples throats by making things in the bible into law.
    E: YOU'RE the one forcing atheism down MY throat by saying that abortion should be legal!
    A: How am I doing that? I'm telling you not to make a law that limits peoples ability to live their lives the way they want and forcing them to live the way you want them to.
    E: Not the way I want them to, the way God wants them to.
    A: How do you know that your god is the right one or even if he's real? Wha-
    E: I know he's real and the only God because the bible says so! And the bible is true because it says so!
    A:... ... I think we're done here. Just try not to make any laws while I'm gone...
    E: *Begins screaming scripture that he says proves his point*
    A: *walks away from the conversation*

    October 17, 2011 at 1:36 pm |
    • Uncouth Swain

      You do realize that many religious (and non-religious) ppl are against abortion because of the view that it is killing a life right, and that is has nothing to do with what the Bible says or implies.

      October 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • Zippygirl

      Actually the Bible says nothing about abortion at all and I have never heard an evangelical say that it did. If you think a fetus is a human life is it so far-fetched to think it is wrong to end it for convenience? That is all that needs to be said. Nobody has any problems with outlawing murder. Some people can actually reasonably believe that abortion is murder, period. Not about forcing religion on anyone, not about subjagating women, blah, blah,blah....

      October 17, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Actually what both of you (Zippy and Uncouth) are dismissing the cru.x of the matter, which is when life begins. The issue at hand is anti-abortionists believe that that life begins at conception and yet can not scientifically prove that is the case, they just believe through bib.lical verses that every human is imb.ued with a soul imm.ediately. We on the other hand no that a fet.us up to 22 weeks (I think) is not fully formed and can still be aborted without ever having actually "lived" in any sense of the word.

      I don't think most people who are pro-choice support the idea of using abortion as a form of birth control, however a girl who is ra.ped, or did in fact use protection specifically not to get pregnant and does anyway should have the option to get a safe and legal abortion instead of bringing a child into the world that will probably be abandoned, or unloved.

      October 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      Killing a fetus before its brain has developed is no worse than killing a fly. It's nothing like killing a living person. And I guess this wasn't the best example. But the argument doesn't change much if it was about gay rights

      October 17, 2011 at 2:01 pm |
    • Mr Mark

      Uncouth Swain writes: "You do realize that many religious (and non-religious) ppl are against abortion because of the view that it is killing a life right, and that is has nothing to do with what the Bible says or implies."

      Then it all comes down to what a person's definition of "a life" happens to be.

      The Supreme Court ruled on this very issue in Roe v Wade. They determined that the viability of the fetus was the determining factor in allowing abortion. That means that a zygote isn't "a life." Neither is a fetus a life if it can't survive outside of the womb. Most abortions are performed within a few weeks of pregnancy, at a time when the fetus hasn't even developed to the point of being able to sense pain or anything else.

      You seem to want to have your own definition of "a life" and to force it on everybody else, regardless of what the law of the land states.

      BTW – even the Catholic Church allowed for abortions up until about a century ago. Some of the "great minds" of the early church, men like Augustine and Aquinas believed that abortion was OK until the time that the soul entered the body (ie: ensoulment), which they determined happened 90 days AFTER conception. That's a much longer time frame for accepting abortion than the time frame in which most abortions are performed today.

      Judaism also allows for abortion in many instances, considering a fetus only a "potential life" until the baby emerges from the birth canal.

      Those who are against abortion on religious grounds are on shaky ground as the church elders who determine the right and wrong of such things have changed their opinion many times over the centuries, so it's obvious that any restriction on abortion hardly comes from god (who happens to be the biggest natural abortionist of them all), but from men. And men tend to make political decisions. And such political decisions are often misogynistic in intent and practice.

      As your moniker contains the word "swain," I'm going to assume you're not a woman, so why not keep your politics out of a woman's womb, and they'll return the favor by not passing laws about how you can handle your erectile dysfunction.

      People objecting to abortion on non-religious grounds? I don't know any. I know people who are against abortion as contraception, but even those objections have a religious tint to them.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      Wow that's probably the most ignorant thing i've read so far. Ending abortion has nothing to do with this crap. Obviously you have some real issues with christians but this is just rediculous.
      Abortion is murder of an innocent defenseless child for selfish reasons. It's all about "convenience" ...it might be convenient for me to kill a co-worker so I can get a promotion-does that make it right?
      Everybody knows it's wrong when a mother kills a newborn or a toddler but while they'e still in her stomach and nobody can see the baby it's no big deal. Would it bother you more if they used guns?
      They use a vacuum to suck the baby out literally tearing it apart.
      Sometimes they use a different procedure where they inject a solution that burns the baby to death before they induce the mother to give birth to a dead baby. If it's not dead when it comes out, it goes in a back room and is left there until it is dead.
      They also have a "partial birth abortion" procedure where they pull everything except the head out, put scisors in through the base of its skull and snip its spinal cord-but because the head isnt out yet, its okay right?
      If you dont believe me, go you youtube and watch Blood Money. It all previous workers and owners of abortion clinics taking about the things they used to do.
      Watch that then come back and try to tell me abortion is okay or that it's only "wrong because the bible says so"

      October 17, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Zippygirl

      Mr. Mark-
      Is it okay for me to come to my own conclusions regarding what I think a human life is? Do I necessarily have to agree with every ruling of the Supreme Court or am I allowed to form my own opinions? Do I need to follow the historical rulings of the Jewish or Catholic faiths simply because I consider myself a believer or can I determine from my own understanding of scripture and reason? Please allow people the right to reason for themselves. I'm sure you wouldn't want other people telling you how to think based on other peoples' opinions. I'm sure that there are laws and judicial rulings you don't agree with too.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:11 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      a baby's heart starts beating seventeen days from the time of conception, which is too soon to even know that you're pregnant.

      I'm The Best,
      After 17 days, the heart is fully formed and the brain is formed enough to work with the rest of the body. Nothing like a fly. Clearly, you are not the best.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:12 pm |
    • Mr Mark

      Zippygirl wrote:

      "Actually the Bible says nothing about abortion at all."

      Not true. The Bible says nothing anti-abortion, but it has quite a bit to say that is pro-abortion.

      Leviticus is entirely clear that a fetus is NOT considered a human life. In fact, fetuses and newborns up to one month old aren't considered to be a human life (Leviticus 27:6). In Numbers 3:15-16, the Jews are ordered by god to "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD."

      Less than a month old? You're not counted as a life according to the god of Israel.

      Later in Numbers, Moses orders the Jews to kill even pregnant women. So much for god believing that killing a fetus is murder.

      For some reason, these Bible verses never get mentioned in the abortion debate. I wonder why.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:13 pm |
    • Uncouth Swain

      @Mr Mark- You'll forgive me if I do not put my faith into what the Supreme Court says. I doubt you agreed with the court in all cases do you? How many doctors are on the Surpeme Court anyway?

      "You seem to want to have your own definition of "a life" and to force it on everybody else, regardless of what the law of the land states."

      With that..you are flat out wrong. Did I once imply that my opinion should be forced on anyone? No...so plz quit with your fear-mongering.

      "..not passing laws about how you can handle your erectile dysfunction."

      Ad Hominum....very sloppy tactic on your part Mark.

      "People objecting to abortion on non-religious grounds? I don't know any."

      Your ignorance isn't evidence.

      I find it odd that when atheists on here scream for ppl to think for themselves...they will then get onto ppl when they do. What these hypocrites (not all atheists mind you) really mean is that they want you do agree with them. Sorry Mark, I have my views on abortion and I am not a woman. I have views on Muslims but I am not of the Islamic Faith. I have views on African-American politics but I am not African-American. I am sorry that you want ppl that you disagree with to shut up and just agree with you or the other sheep of your fold....but reality rarely goes with ppl like you.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • On the other hand

      The NIH reports, "It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%."

      One in 200 pregnancies results in stillbirth.

      Your purported "God" is the worst killer.

      Science, on the other hand, has come up with many treatments to prevent these "God" killings.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      Mr. Mark,
      You're taking that way out of context.
      The bible does not say "less than a month old is not considered human" It is about an evil king who ordered all the children to be killed because they heard prophesy of Moses delivering the children of Isreal and he didnt want that to happen. The ones under a month old were not a threat to him.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • Mr Mark

      Zippygirl writes:
      "Is it okay for me to come to my own conclusions regarding what I think a human life is?"

      Sure. No one says you need to be in agreement with what the law says. But you shouldn't be surprised when you encounter push back in the marketplace of ideas once you elect to publicly air your conclusions.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • Chuckles


      Do you see the Irony in asking Mr. Mark to let you make up your own mind instead of following what the bible or the supreme court says? All the Supreme Court's decision did is let girls make up their own mind and get an abortion if they want one.

      @Life Warrior

      Wow. you're really into the whole "fetus' are children" thing huh? I mean, you seem to think you know what you're talking about. Ok, so a heart has formed 17 days after conception, what does that mean exactly? By the mere fact that we can create a living, beating heart in a lab, without the need of a body to form around it, does that mean that this heart also has a soul, a life? It takes up to the amount of weeks I mentioned previously for a fetus to be able to survive outside of the womb, which means before then the fetus is nothing more than a zygote (like I'm the Best has pointed out).

      October 17, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ Zippygirl
      "Please allow people the right to reason for themselves. I'm sure you wouldn't want other people telling you how to think based on other peoples' opinions."
      This is one of the best pro-abortion things I've ever heard...

      @ lifewarrior
      A brain pumping a heart is nothing. A blob of cells with a pumping heart is nowhere near as complex as a fly. So my statement still holds that aborting a fetus that early is not as bad as killing a fly.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • DefenderofLife

      Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13
      Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations Jeremiah 1:5

      There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Proverbs 6:6-19

      October 17, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      On The Other Hand,
      Miscarriages have nothing to do with God killing anyone.
      Miscarriages happen because of the curse that was put on man in the garden of Eden, making things not so easy anymore. God does not murder babies.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Uncouth Swain

      *shakes my fist at the real trouble maker here*
      Dang you CNN! You could have put up any other religious pic but nooooo..you had to choose an abortion themed one!

      October 17, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      "On The Other Hand,
      Miscarriages have nothing to do with God killing anyone.
      Miscarriages happen because of the curse that was put on man in the garden of Eden, making things not so easy anymore. God does not murder babies."

      Isn't your god the one that gave that curse to man? So isn't it still his fault? He's still to blame because he gave it to man to begin with and could easily take it away. So the fault stays with him.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Zippygirl

      To those who think I just made the pro-choice argument for them, I never tried to make other people believe as I do. I only have stated what my opinion was based on my own understanding. Yes, I get the irony. That being said, I find it interesting that those who argue that a fetus is not a human life have brought up the "soul" issue.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
    • On the other hand

      Life Warrior,

      Then don't praise and thank "God" for successful pregnancies. If "God" is responsible for the good ones, 'he' is also responsible for the failures. He supersedes the "curse" when it suits his fancy, and allows it to stand according to that same fancy - what a monster.

      One could claim that he is working through human-caused abortion to bring those little 'souls' back to 'him'.

      Your idea of "God" is nutty.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      I'm The Best,
      No, the curse was given because adam and eve did the only thing that God told them not to do.
      He could take it away just as easily if we deserved it, but no, everyone insists on breaking the few little rules. "Dont kill. Love everybody. Dont cheat. Dont worship false Gods."...really, how hard is that?

      October 17, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      I'm The Best,
      The heart and brain arent the only things forming at that point I was only using the two of them because of what you and Chuckles were saying. The human body is much more complex than a fly.

      Yes, life begins at the point of conception. It's not about what our lovely government says when they decided it's only a life if it can live alone. The government doesnt make these children and have no right to decide when life begins.
      If God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb, that implies our souls were already there.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      On The Other Hand,
      Don't argue with me if you're going to ingore the facts that I have already made about that.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Life Warrior

      Interesting how you say that even though the bible you ascribe to also disagrees with you (ensoulment generally happens 90 days after conception according to the bible.....) I think what you don't understand is that the supreme court isn't exactly forcing anyone to get an abortion, they're just allowing the legal option for people who don't ascribe to your crazy mumbo jumbo and actually understand that if they need an abortion they shouldn't have to go to a back alley to get one.

      As to your last line, so you're telling me I had a soul before I was even conceived? What about all the stillbirths, and miscarriages then? I believe another poster has already pointed out that if someone has a "soul" before conception even, then god is a bigger murderer than any abortion doctor out there.

      October 17, 2011 at 2:48 pm |
    • On the other hand

      "Don't argue with me if you're going to ingore the facts that I have already made about that."

      Are you referring to the story of Adam and Eve as fact? Really?
      Supernatural curses and blessings are facts? Really?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:02 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      Actually, the bible doesnt say that all all, nor does it give any kind of timeline other than saying "I knew you before you were formed in your mother's womb."
      And as for you calling God a murderer, I'll tell you the same thing I told 'On The Other Hand', don't argue with me if you are going to ignore everything that I have already said on the subject. I've already made my point on this.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:03 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      I don't actually believe that humans have souls and that laws and morality are in place based on society and nothing more. With that being said, it's all just about what society feels is the time that life starts and the supreme court represents the people (society).

      Killing a person is wrong because society says it's wrong, not because your god says it's wrong. In fact, your god says it's only wrong sometimes, he said it's okay and even expected to do honor killings in your family if a child disrespects that family. We're slowly becoming a more liberal society and letting people choose for themselves on most things which I think is great. So if something is morally wrong, then society changes it's mind, then it isn't wrong anymore, no matter how many people think the opposite is true.

      I think people should be able to choose what to do with their own life, and as of right now, that includes having abortions. And if society says that a fetus isn't alive until it can live outside the womb, then you're just going to have to live with it.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      On The Other Hand,
      Yes. Facts.
      You are the one who brought up God in that conversation. The bible is God's book. So, I will reffer to them as facts. Why bring up something about God and then get mad when I argue back with something God said?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      No actually the bible doesn't say that's okay. That was the whole reason for the crusifiction, so that nobody had to be put to death. I think the bible is pretty clear on murder in the statement "Do not kill."

      But basically, you refuse to believe that and don't believe in anything. You think one day some atoms just exploded and out came a human and every insanely specific detail of the human body and human nature and speech...it all just happened on it's own, right?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:13 pm |
    • Chuckles


      Just because you don't like the ti.tle of "murderer" doesn't mean it isn't true. You said that miscarriages and stillbirths is because of the curse that god put on man – which still means its gods fault. It always astounds me that you people always give god praise when good stuff happens and yet when something that can equally be attributed to god but is considered evil must not have been his fault at all. If everyone has a "soul" before their birth, what about the still births then? Riddle me that?

      Also for the 90 day ensoulment thing, I think Thomas of Aquila and some popes would disagree with you, but who I am to argue with your pastor right?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:14 pm |
    • On the other hand

      Life Warrior,

      Apparently you do not know what a "fact" is...

      Fact: Event, item of information, or state of affairs existing, observed, or known to have happened, and which is confirmed or validated to such an extent that it is considered 'reality.'

      You have no facts in your argument.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      "You think one day some atoms just exploded and out came a human and every insanely specific detail of the human body and human nature and speech...it all just happened on it's own, right?"

      It's a little more complicated than that, but basically yes. There's the big bang, which has many theories about how it happened (many not needing a god to do it), then the creation of the sun and our planets, which is very well understood, then many random acts that led to the first single celled organism, which in all probability should happen on a planet such as ours eventually, then all that's left is for evolution to take over and this leads to humans being very complicated with all the complexities of our lives.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      The evil has nothing to do with God that's all accredited to Satan.
      And what to still births have to do with souls? A soul doesnt make you move and keep you alive. It's in you.
      Good for the popes. They're not God either. Just because a pope says it doesnt mean its in the bible.

      And as for the Big Bang crap, you believe a bunch of nothing exploded to make everything?
      We went from plants to monkeys to humans? If we evolved magically from monkeys to humans, why dont the monkeys do it again and let us watch? Why are there still monkeys?
      And those magic particles that exploded to make us, where did those come from?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:35 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ LIfeWarrior
      "We went from plants to monkeys to humans? If we evolved magically from monkeys to humans, why dont the monkeys do it again and let us watch? Why are there still monkeys?"

      You obviously know next to nothing about evolution. There are still monkeys because some of them didn't need to evolve because their environment was not changing as rapidly as the one where our ancestors lived. And it didn't just magically happen overnight, it took hundreds of thousands of years, there was no magic tranformation that happened overnight. So it's not going to 'happen again' unless you have a few hundred thousand years to observe it and know how to change their environment so it leads to humans again.

      "And those magic particles that exploded to make us, where did those come from?"
      First of all, they weren't magic particles. Particles can appear if enough energy is put into a small enough space, this is what happens at particle colliders. They aren't actually colliding particles, they're creating them by colliding beams of energy. So the universe could have started as just a very dense area of super high energy. How this ball of energy happened, no one really knows. There are many theories about this and many of them do not need a god for it to happen. There are even theories that say befor the big bang there was no time and therefore no cause and effect, which means the ball of energy could have just happened for no reason. And just because we don't know for sure, doesn't mean god did it.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:45 pm |
    • Chuckles


      your ignorance actually pained me when I read your last post. Really? REALLY?

      Ok, so first, lets start with Satan, the guy you attribute all evil to, the guy who supposedly actually challenges god but could be destroyed at any moment and yet god doesn't because.......
      I bring up still births because technically by your definition they were children that were killed in the womb, since it was a person's doing, blame has to fall on the supernatural (because nothing can happen in your world without a reason, thats crazy talk).

      As for the Big Bang – a bunch of nothing exploded and became something, Um... you actually believe that too, so don't pretend like this is a new thing. You just think a being that's always existed, somehow, zapped everything into being 6,000 years ago. Mine wacky theory pales in comparison to yours.

      Your ignorance in evolution is also astounding and belies your extreme lack of knowledge on the subject. One question, if we evolved from monkeys (actually apes, not monkeys) why are there still monkeys. Answer me this, if we came from britain then why are there stlll british people? Once you answer me this question you'll get your answer to why there are still apes even though we share a common ancestor.

      Do you also know how long it takes for evolution to move at? It's not exactly like you can watch something evolve right in front of you, that's just idiotic.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:47 pm |
    • On the other hand

      "And as for the Big Bang crap, you believe a bunch of nothing exploded to make everything?
      And those magic particles that exploded to make us, where did those come from?"

      I am humble enough to say, "I don't know (yet)". You? "God did it" is not the fall-back answer.


      " If we evolved magically from monkeys to humans, why dont the monkeys do it again and let us watch? Why are there still monkeys?"

      Do believers say this over and over again just to be purposefully annoying? Or are you really that uninformed about the process of evolution? One more time... and please pass this along to your cohorts once and for all:

      Humans did *not* evolve FROM monkeys, but both evolved from a common ancestor that lived millions of years ago, as shown by DNA, and bodily structure and function. Squirrels and mice have an ancient common ancestor. If we have squirrels, why are there still mice? Why can't mice let us watch them evolve into squirrels or vice-versa?

      October 17, 2011 at 3:49 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "If we evolved magically from monkeys to humans, why dont the monkeys do it again and let us watch? Why are there still monkeys?"

      You may want to stick to your Biblical arguments for what they are worth, because your knowledge of science, at least evolution, is sorely lacking.
      We evolved from a common ancestor with monkeys, not from monkeys directly. In addition, we have a common ancestor with every other species on the planet. Monkeys and Humans are equally evovled. Their are still Monkeys because not all of the Monkey population followed the same evolutionary path. Similarly, the US was founded by the British and yet there are still British around today.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:57 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      So if we put a monkey in the desert and waited a while it would transform into something else?
      Alaskan people have been there for a while now you dont see them growing fur.
      You can put as many particles as you please into space-it still couldnt create something as complex as the human body. That's a lot of organs and cells and all the different blood types and all of that to be made up. I cant honestly believe that its all just coincidence.

      October 17, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Life Warrior

      I hope there is a heaven so that when you die Darwin can slap you.

      putting a monkey in the desert would kill it, because you are taking it out of its environment and expecting it to immediately adapt, which is not evolution. The other part that you are missing is that a lot of the time evolution isn't as overt as people growing fur, for instance we can see just in humans that westerners are able to metabolize milk as adults because we were able to domesticate cattle and use their milk after infancy, however if you look at the chinese who did not do this, you will find that most people are lactose intolerant.

      Like Nonimus has said, stick with the bible because your knowlege on evolution and quantum mechanics is lacking in the extreme.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ LifeWarrior
      No, that wouldn't happen. The change from their habitat now of the rainforest to grassland would eventually have them walking upright like humans do. This change would have to take hundreds of years to happen so the evolution process could keep up. Then more enviromental changes would have to start taking place that would lead to a larger brain making these creatures smarter. These changes would also need to be slow enough for evolution to take place. This means for a monkey/ape to evolve into a human it would take hundreds of thousands of years because it would need to be slow enough for evolution to weed out the animals who are better fit to live in that environment without them all dying off because of the quick change.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "So if we put a monkey in the desert and waited a while it would transform into something else?"
      No. Populations evolve not individuals.

      "Alaskan people have been there for a while now you dont see them growing fur."
      Evolution is not need based or wish based and it takes a long time for large changes.

      "You can put as many particles as you please into space-it still couldnt create something as complex as the human body."
      What is your basis for saying that?

      "That's a lot of organs and cells and all the different blood types and all of that to be made up. I cant honestly believe that its all just coincidence."
      That's because you don't understand how evolution works. Also, the truth or falsity of a Scientific Theory is base on the evidence, not on what you "honestly believe."

      October 17, 2011 at 4:10 pm |
    • LIfeWarrior

      I'd like to know what science you have to prove this.
      What "common ancestor?" The pictures from darwin's theory shows a monkey stand up, grow hands and feet and shed all its hair.
      If the earth has been here as long asscientist try to claim, with thousands of years for the big bang and evolution and all that.. what about the moon? Scientists fear the moon will fall out of orbit because it moves further away from the earth every year. If creation went as the bible says, this would make sense. If it happened according to science, the moon would have been once a part of the earth and would have orbited just inches from the earth for years...that explains what happened to the dinosaurs huh?

      Darwin wouldnt be in heaven he spent his like trying to dis-prove God's existance.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:32 pm |
    • ***sigh***

      LifeWarrior: "The pictures from darwin's theory shows a monkey stand up, grow hands and feet and shed all its hair."

      ***sigh*** Best that you stick with your coloring book... staying within the lines filling in drawings of Noah's Ark and rainbows 'n stuff. ***sigh***

      You are not in on the search for reality.

      October 17, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "I'd like to know what science you have to prove this."
      First, thanks for asking, honestly.
      Second, science doesn't deal in proofs, that's Mathematics.
      Third, It is a huge subject, however, here's some starting points for you:

      Fossils like Ambuloceatus, Archeoptyrx, Ho.mo Erectus, etc. support Evolution.
      Genetics like Endogenus Retroviruses (ERV), and Human Chromosome-2 support evolution.
      Biochemestry like CytoChrome-C, etc. support evolution.
      Biogeography like marsupials and new vs. old-world monkeys support evolution.

      Here are some good web sites:

      October 17, 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    • Chuckles


      I hope you didn't get your education from a public school or our country is in way more trouble than I thought.

      First and foremost if you're asking for science to back up my examples, then you have to inherintly trust in what they are saying, But apart from that, you had some asinine comments that I want to move onto. Firstly, The universe is 14 BILLION years old, the earth is about 3 BILLION years old. I'm not sure how the bible supports the moon orbiting away from the earth but by our current theories, the earth was nailed by a giant asteroid during its formation and a huge chunk (the moon) got knocked off and then caught in the earths gravity, it didn't slowly separate itself and move away, It very dramatically was sheared away. As for the dinosaurs, do you think they exist? Because god sure doesn't, but no matter, we know the dinosaurs (most of them) went exitinct from a meteor hitting earth and the subsequent nuclear winter. that enveloped the earth.

      Don't talk out of your as.s it's an embarassment.

      October 17, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
    • Mr Mark

      LIfeWarrior writes:

      "Mr. Mark,
      You're taking that way out of context.
      The bible does not say "less than a month old is not considered human" It is about an evil king who ordered all the children to be killed because they heard prophesy of Moses delivering the children of Isreal and he didnt want that to happen. The ones under a month old were not a threat to him."

      Would that be anything like taking the story of King Azah as found in Isaiah 7 entirely out of context, mistranslating the Hebrew word "almah" (which means "young woman" in Hebrew. The Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah," and that's NOT the word used in Isaiah 7) into the Greek word for virgin ("parthenos"), wherein the passage in Hebrew that reads, "Therefore YAHWEH Himself shall give you a sign: behold, THE YOUNG WOMAN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel," is mistranslated in the Septuagint and becomes, "Therefore YAHWEH Himself shall give you a sign: behold, A VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel," and that mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint gets picked up by Matthew in the NT who writes, "All this took place to fulfill what YAHWEH had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his Emmanuel" (which means, God with us)," and that entirely taken out of context mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah" into the Greek word "pathenos" becomes the sole basis for the dogma of the virgin birth of Jesus?

      Is THAT the kind of out-of-context stuff you're taking about?

      October 18, 2011 at 10:54 am |
    • Scott - 1

      @ LIfeWarrior: “Wow that's probably the most ignorant thing i've read so far”. I guess you haven’t been reading the theist's comments…. A newly formed fetus is no more a child than an egg yolk is a chicken.

      October 18, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • Scott - 1

      "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

      October 18, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.