October 21st, 2011
06:00 AM ET
The End, again? If it is, we thank you for your time
By Jessica Ravitz, CNN
(CNN) - In case you are reading this, might we suggest you read really fast?
The world may end any minute now, if the latest doomsday prediction is on target.
We realize October 21 didn’t get the shout-out that May 21 did, so our apologies if this comes as a surprise. But if you had heard the complete message the first time, you would have known.
“The warning is out,” Dennis Morrell, 44, of Jacksonville, Florida, reminded us a couple of days ago. “There’s nothing else you can do.”
Earlier this year, and with the backing of the Christian broadcasting network Family Radio, billboards touting May 21 as Judgment Day dotted the landscape. RVs plastered with the fateful date crisscrossed the country as believers wearing T-shirt announcements and waving fliers sounded the alarm.
That was to be the day when a select 2% to 3% of the world’s population, predetermined by God, would be raptured up to heaven. Everyone else, the story went, would endure months-long judgment amid chaos, destruction and unspeakable suffering. A massive earthquake would ravage the land, bodies would be tossed about and terror would reign for the duration.
Five months or exactly 153 days later, it was said, the world would disappear – which brings us to today.
This was the schedule laid out by God’s word in the Bible, the faithful said. It was the plan deciphered and shared by Harold Camping, now 90, the founder of Family Radio, based in Oakland, California.
Camping, who has an engineering degree, had spent more than 50 years combing through his Bible and crunching numbers embedded in scripture. Sure, he’d made a similar end-of-the-world prediction for September 6, 1994, but who hasn’t been tripped up by biblical verses? With additional studying, calculations and new signs that would be revealed later, he said earlier this year that he had no doubts this time around.
“I know it’s absolutely true, because the Bible is always absolutely true,” he told CNN before May 21. “If I were not faithful that would mean that I’m a hypocrite.”
Problem is, May 21 came and went, and the world remained the same. Soon the billboards disappeared. The T-shirts and hats worn by believers got tossed. The RVs were quietly parked, tucked away in storage yards, possibly sold.
Camping came forth, two days later, with an explanation - and his last news conference. October 21 would still be the end, he said, but a “loving and merciful” God had opted to spare humanity the five months of turmoil.
A couple of weeks later, Camping had a stroke. He is said to be recuperating at home after a hospital and rehab stay and has only made a handful of radio addresses in the months since. Family Radio declined our requests to interview him.
Fred Store, a 66-year-old retired electrician and longtime Family Radio listener, dedicated seven months of his life to sharing the “awesome news” that was the May 21 message. He led a caravan of believers, five RVs strong, on a tour of the United States for Family Radio. He was in Boston in May when he expected to be raptured up to heaven.
When nothing happened, “We were caught by surprise. ... But we realize now that it’s very possible that we misunderstood some of the things we thought were true,” Store said this week from his home in Sacramento, California, where he has put up a number of caravan friends.
“I believe that October 21 is the end, and I trust in God. Whatever way he chooses to end things will be perfect.”
On the Family Radio website, the May 21 events, or nonevents, have been clarified.
“What really happened is that God accomplished exactly what he wanted to happen. That was to warn the whole world that on May 21 God’s salvation program would be finished. ... For the next five months, except for the elect (the true believers), the whole world is under God’s final judgment,” the statement reads.
As for that massive, body-flinging earthquake anticipated by believers, well, it turned out to be less literal.
“We always look at the word ‘earthquake’ to mean the earth, or ground, is quaking or shaking violently. However, in the Bible the word ‘earth’ can include people as well as ground. ... Therefore we have learned from our experience of last May 21 what actually happened. All of mankind was shaken with fear. Indeed the Earth (or mankind) did quake in a way it had never before been shaken.”
No one was raptured on May 21, but that’s just because “universal judgment” will come on the last day. “The elect” or “true believers” are still guaranteed their day of rapture, and everyone else will be “annihilated together with the whole physical world.”
For Paul Anatiychuk, 36, of Charlotte, North Carolina, the way this played out has been a relief, a blessing. A husband and father of two children, ages 8 and 9, he wasn’t sure if his own family members would be saved. The thought of leaving them behind on May 21, to suffer what would come over the next five months, troubled him.
“God tortures them while we’re hanging in the clouds?” he said this week. “It didn’t completely fit.”
Now, Anatiychuk said, he can take solace knowing that when he’s saved, sinners will simply die.
“Of course (the world) has to be destroyed and burned up by fire,” he said. “But it’s going to be very quiet.”
Finding a way to save faith, and face, is part of the process when a prophecy fails, said Lorenzo DiTommaso, an associate professor of religion at Concordia University in Montreal, who has been studying apocalyptic worldviews for a dozen years.
He said those who become disillusioned aren’t quick to talk, and the rest find a new way to spin what has transpired.
When nothing happened on May 21, Camping was left with a choice, said DiTommaso, whose book, “The Architecture of Apocalypticism,” is scheduled for publication next spring.
Camping could have admitted he was wrong. He could have said the calculations were off and needed further analysis. Or he could have spiritualized the apocalypse, which is exactly what he did, DiTommaso said.
That tack, that way of looking at the apocalypse, has a long history, he said, and dates back to early Christian theologians. Tyconius, in the late fourth century, took this approach, as - more notably - did Augustine in the early fifth century.
Augustine “preferred to understand the millennium predicted in the Revelation of John in spiritual and metaphoric rather than literal terms,” DiTommaso said. He “sought to diminish the emphasis on hard calculations.”
The obvious advantage of this sort of interpretation for a man like Camping, who has prided himself on his numbers, is that he can “divorce himself a little bit from the fact that he was so darn wrong.”
What Camping will say - if anything - come Saturday, assuming there is a Saturday, is anyone’s guess.
But DiTommaso said a new explanation, perhaps a new doomsday date, may be on the horizon. It would be just another in a long line of end-time predictions across the ages.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if we see another attempt” by Camping, he said. “If he were an artist, this is his masterpiece, his life work.”
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
If these people are for real I hope you aren't wasting you time trying to deprogram them. I don't think there is a force in the universe that could sway minds like those. Atheism is something that comes about internally. I had no one to deprogram me as I live in the south where you can toss one rock and hit 3 different churches.
no, that would take an open mind, and their book closes their eyes and minds to anything that doesn't conform to their belief in the super-natural. I'm in the midwest, Westboro's main huning ground lol
It is Sunday, why are you stoning Christians and claiming their faith is bronze age.
Fred, christianity is a bronze age religion. That's when it was created.
I would think that most of these "extremists" that post here are trolls. I refuse to believe HS actually believes what she posts. And I'm sure Richard aka Lionly Nut Job can't even keep up with his own "mult-itudness of otherly ramblings he doth speweth". In other words, these can't be real people lol.
oh they are real, but they have yet to be de-programmed from the brain-washing they endured for years at the hands of the sooth-sayers. They became afraid of punishment by a non-existent being who is going to send them to a place of fire if they didn't follow the yellow brick road laid out in the book of myths. I have no such fear. Reading that book is the greatest tool there is for atheism.Those humanoids have yet to see logic, reason, and common sense as a way of a nice, quiet, simple life unfettered by claims of "Do what the sky-king says ... or else" Nothing unreal exists, and "god" is about as unreal as it gets.
While some people here like to call all religious people delusional, I don't think that is correct. They are DELUDED on this one huge issue for reasons of yearning and fear, concerning certain central issues of life and death, and then there is the old "childhood programming" issue. But the religious, even people like Chad who apply considerable intellect to the service of willful ignorance with genuine zeal, do not seem otherwise PRONE to delusion. The one possible exception I would say is the Lame Lion Richard of gOd, by goD and for GoD with Turtles All the Way Down. His ramblingly purple prose and chaotically structured theological speculations come off as the stuff of street babblers. I think he is indeed for real, but perhaps not exactly a full citizen of the real world.
As for some of the other gaudy specimens, HeavenSent and Adelina of the Many Names seem like parodies and may well be trolls, but I've met people every bit as narrow in real life – people who thought they were doing the most wonderful thing in the eyes of a god they obsessed over by spewing hate and generally haranguing people with their ignorant world view.
I also believe there was an historic Jesus. Put into context what he and his people were going through with the Roman occupation it's no stretch of the imagination to see him as a revolutionary that was desperately trying to hold onto the last vestige of their beliefs and with time deified. The Romans brought knowledge and architecture to the people they conquered but they did it callously.
I really don't want ot get into the "History according to the bible" with you because we both know that the book would not be accurate at all. Of course Rome came in callous, that was their job lol .. as it was the job of EVERY empire on this planet .. conquer, absorb, move on ... conquer absorb move on. These life-forms that post on here telling us that faith is the only answer need to lighten up, and be touched by the noodly goodness of FSM
And I couldn't agree more! I've been a long time lurker on these forums and am quite familiar with the rantings of HS, "Run and Hide Herbie", and especially The Lionly Winged Richard Of God or whatever he is going by these days.
Don't forget "fred" and "prism423" or whatever number he/she/it has. They both think their book is "evidence" because the book itself SAYS it's eveidence, so it's gotta be true, right? lol I think theres only one thing true in that entire "babble" oops I mean bible ... some guy named jesus probably did live 2000 years ago. That's it, that's the only thing that can possibly be true .. anything else ... well .. no naked woman (sad, right .. we all want that lol) no talking snake, no worldwide flood, no seven seals of the seven signs .. no water into wine, certainly no ressurection ... just some deluded guy walking around, who in this day and age would have been arrested and locked away for court-ordered psych evals
I was making a joke. I believe in heaven and hell as much as I believe in life on Venus.
got it 🙂 .. but with some of these "people" (for lack of a better word) you never know where someone stands
While I'm in hell, I wonder if between spinning on satan's pitchfork and taking a dip in the lake of fire I'll have time to converse with my fellow "damnies". I'm thinking after a few centuries I'd get used to the temperature and torment and want to get some site-seeing done!
I wouldn't waste my energies worrying about things like that. There was no concept of hell until the christians came along. It's just another way to instill fear into people so as to control them while they are being outright deceived by some idiot's interpretation of a big book of myths, fables, and stories
It is true that the King James version of the Bible reads as nonsense, and that is because that translation of the Bible is nonsense. It is actually a mistranslation. If you want to read the Bible as it was meant to read, get a copy of a book called "The Bible Unauthorized". It will dispel any doubts in anyone's head about the truth and relevance of the Bible to all our lives. It is also true that many religions contain ideas and practices that are ridiculous and irrelevant. G-d gave people seven laws that if they will do them, the world would become the good place G-d intended and everyone wants. The laws are: to believe in one G-d, not to blaspheme Him, not to murder, not to steal (and kidnap), not to do adultery, not to eat the limb of a living animal (animal cruelty), and to set up effective courts of justice that enforce these laws. There are more details to each of these laws, of course, which need to be studied. Why is the idea of G-d necessary? First of all, because He was the one who created the world for a purpose, which you will see as soon as you read the book I recommended earlier. Second of all, because a person can, of course, do the five laws not associated with G-d that I listed, but eventually someone will come along and say he doesn't need to do them, because, after all, why should he if he doesn't want to? In other words, without G-d, people become the source of all "good", and that can change at will. The Germans were the most educated and civilized nation until they decided to kill the Jews. Doing good, and morality itself, cannot be based on people's desires, as that can change at will.
The King James verision is only one of more than 20 version in English. It's good to know that your book knows better than all the others and all of the scholars who worked on them. Yep.
Wow....I just sit here staring at the screen in awe....
We are an 'advanced' society, we are educated (mostly), and yet some of us still believe in a magic man in the sky that will make it all better. Face it, you will die someday, when you do you will decompose, period! Fear of death and a belief in a god will not change that. Suck it up, live your life as a moral person and deal with it.
@Bill – For more than 400 years the light of science has led our way....and many still argue the veracity of Iron and Bronze-Age myth. Reason help us!
G-d responds to man's initiation. If people will continue to add in acts of goodness and kindness, He will respond. And how do you know He is not responding right now? Look at how the Soviet Union, the most powerful and dangerous government in the world, changed over peacefully within a few years? Everyone realized it was a miracle. Look at how the State of Israel was brought up out of the ashes (having few Jews living there continually since the Jews were exiled from there two thousand years ago) after millions of Jews were so terribly tortured and murdered en masse by the supposed most educated country in the world at the time, Germany. Isn't that a miracle? And how the world has been continually focused on that most tiny country since then, even though it has only a few millions of citizens? Did you ever wonder why this is so? It is because G-d wants people to improve themselves and improve the world, and He shows us, through Israel, which people are full of hatred and which are good, and who is going to do good in the world (as defined by Him) and who has to try harder. The Messiah is about to come, and therefore it is in everyone's best interest to improve his behavior now, and make the world the way G-d intended it. G-d is infinitely kind and wishes to bestow His kindness on what He created. In our imitation of Him, we can improve the world to be that kind of place that He wishes to have and will feel comfortable in.
The "believers" posting are likely not too different from the "non-believers": most are "good" people trying to do their best; most use reason to make many of their decisions [daily nutrition; whom to see when sick (I'd bet few see a priest when they have an infection); whether or not to step off the curb in front of oncoming traffic; etc.] The main difference is the "believers" maintain, by compartmentalizing, one set of nonsensical beliefs on which they never shine the light of reason. While this is perplexing, it does not indicate they are "stupid" or "crazy". While we non-believers anticipate a day where this blind-spot is eradicated, it is unlikely that blog debate will resolve the problem..................but, we must keep trying.
The gospel of Jesus Christ
Some spiritual facts we could recognize without having the message of the New Testament.
It is apparent that there is something wrong with our world. Every day a lot of crimes occur. If man would be good, no crimes would occur. Day by day human beings harm each other by words and deeds. Of course, of ourselves we think to be good and only the others make mistakes.
No reasonable man can deny that the mankind is befallen from something, which makes people harming each other, whereby the single one always claims to be guiltless and lays the blame on the others.
The first step, which we must do, in order to approach the kingdom of God, is to abandon a delusion about ourselves. We should no longer assume that all other people on earth are guilty and we ourselves are guiltless. Everyone of us is a so-called sinner and proves it every day, when he doesn't love his neighbours, but harms them.
It is very easy to preach the following: Don't harm your neighbour, but love him. This is the basic law, from which all other laws are derived. However, forbidden fruit taste the sweetest (yet Adam experienced that). The more we are requested to keep the law, the more we break it. Imagine the honey or the jam in the pantry. You forbade your son to enter the pantry and to eat the whole honey and jam. Of course, you have got a locked pantry, but your son will finally find ways and means to enter the pantry and to supply his want.
Thus, we need deliverance from the slavery of sin, because we are slaves of the sin. The more we are requested to keep the law, the more we are tempted to break it. Assumed, we would be good, we would not break the law or even would not need any law, because we would act according to the demands of love.
The gospel: Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, can release us from the slavery of sin. He can enable us to love our neighbour, instead of harming him. By his death and resurrection Jesus has overcome the evil powers of this current world including our sinful human flesh. If we believe and get baptized, our old man of sin, which is a slave of sin, dies and God gives us a new life in Jesus. In Jesus or filled with the Holy Spirit we are able to love.
Rainer, your only rational first step would be to abandon your stupid delusion about your personal loving god.
Your god obviously doesn't exist. Please stop bothering us with your incessant rambling posts about it.
Lots of cultures have myths about golden ages from which humans have "fallen". And they are all bunk. They are just the delusion of nostalgia (cf the crabby, small minded losers of every generation that grows old yammering "the music we had growing up was wonderful and everything since sucks" just form one tiresome example) writ large and projected back into the distant past. If you can't see how stupid the whole thing is, just consider all the Russians who were nostalgic for Stalin and Germans who were nostalgic for Hitler after their respective demises. If you want to take a rational first step, lose this whole notion of some prior paradise from which we have fallen. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Hmm. Saturday morning, world still here.... No big news about people disappearing or massive natural disasters... I guess we'll be hearing about the next prediction in a few days, complete with the promise that this new time is the REAL date.
We cannot see or even imagine God yet alone His ways or His mind. How is God who; is outside time and space, who created our time and space, in an instant can see past, present and future going to reveal Himself to man? As God reveals Himself man continues to evolve intellectually, emotionally and culturally. Take a photo album from an old guy that is say 80 and look at the snapshots over this short period. The modle A Ford just came out then today he sees his great grandkids on an Ipad. Add 3,400 years and tell me what the snap shot looks like when Moses wrote Genesis. 3,400 years ago the people used a common Middle Eastern form that was more of a symbolic picture language. Moses grew up in the Pharaohs house in Egypt an educated man. I think it is remarkable that the Bible was understood then and now. I think the Bible is a remarkable photo album of God and the chosen people.
I am closing in on an answer for you.....
One of Christs closest Apostles John said: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and came and dwelt among us. So here even 1400 years later we see God reflected in and through a man Jesus in the Word a picture of love, servants heart, unity with the Father, unity with the Spirit, unity with the beleiver. Jesus was not God in the context of a Zeus for example that was a god to the Greeks because as stated earlier God cannot be put in a construct of man. Jesus was the manifistation of God in a form we could identify with, perhaps incarnate is still a better word. Although artists have drawn pictures of Christ we know it is not an accurate picture of Jesus. In the same way Jesus as God is not an accurate visual Adam ,Eve , the Ark are not accurate visuals we must use the Word and in the beginning was the Word.
Jesus said when you see me you have seen the father. Well you could not "see" the father. So as I said it does not matter if you see the Ark as alagoy or methaphor or litteral. When you "see" God you "see" the picture story of the Ark.
In that context I see Moses describing the first ancestors of the chosen people, as a man named Adam and woman named Eve,to his audiance. Then He goes on to list the generations. That would be a "yes" to your question. Time frame for the beginning of this generation of chosen peoples was a few hundred years before man worked with bronze. Now, wheter you choose to apply this beginning to that of other peoples gets complicated.
Nice piece of metaphysical obfuscation. But if Adam and Eve are not literally true, then the original sin is not literally true, there was no need for Christ’s sacrifice becomes meaningless and the basis of Christianity falls apart. If the bible isn’t literally true then Christianity is not literally true and becomes open to any interpretation. Then again with over 3,000 different denominations of Christians in the US, that’s kind of what’s happened.
@Scott: Well said.
Scott, great response.
Fred, are you saying that Adam and Eve werent literally, actually people walking around on this earth?
Or are you saying, that things created by God are in a sense representations of God, and when you look at them you "see" God, but arent "seeing" God?
wasnt sure what you were saying...
Chad, do you think Adam and Eve were literally the first people? That Eve was formed from Adam's rib? That Eve literally spoke to a snake and literally ate from a literal tree that was literally forbidden?
Tom, it sure would make for a good sub-plot in a Harry Potter book wouldn't it? lol After all, didn't Harry talk to snakes as well? I'm just waiting for one of these buffoons to tell us that this planet is only 6000 years old. We know "adam and eve" weren't real, but I'd love to know something else. In this global flood that some guy with a boat went through, where did all that water recede to?
Hey Fred, if you're so righteous, why weren't you and the others "raptured" last Friday? Guess you're not worthy, as Wayne and Garth would say
The Bible is the Divine word of God, written by God or writers inspired by God. The writer of Genesis expressed the beginning for an audience. On the first level we have the literal story Adam , Eve and a snake. I was thinking that 3,400 years ago the audience could understand the literal story. We are looking back at that story with the knowledge of what Jesus said and revealed. We can clearly see the genealogy from Adam to Christ which supports the literal interpretation. The tree of good and evil in that garden takes on a different form. Now are getting into why man rejects God followed by God redeeming His people. The physical aspect of man is easy to get across to the audience because we are all familiar with it. The relationship with God, revelation of God and concept of good and evil seem to escape simple literal interpretation. Allegory and metaphor seem to be an easier way to reveal those truths.
Thus, as to Adam and Eve they were physical people walking about. As to God we cannot see only revelation and representations of attributes and nature. As to the the tree of good and evil / serpant it is the deception, evil, darkness, desire, lust etc. that causes us to reject God.
wait wait wait ... you mean to tell us that there's a direct recorded geneology from adam to jesus?? there is?? really? who wrote that down? so that means recorded history started with the first man? Do you have ANY other so-called "evidence" to back that up other than your book of myths? You also said that it was written by "god" or men inspired by "god" ... so just which parts did this "god" actually write? I don't reject your "god", I simply acknowledge that it has never, does not, and never will exist, just like countless other "gods" of the past who never existed either. So the whole human race was born from two people, one made from dirt, then was given mouth-to mouth, and lo and behold it's alive!!!! then this "god" yanked a rib from the man, and made an entire being from just ONE bone, mouth to mouth again and WOW she started walking and talking. I think your "god" should book a Vegas hotel for his magic act. It's sure to be a sell-out!!!
It is several place, go to Luke chapter 3. You keep forgetting the Bible is a story about God redeeming his chosen people for Himself.
Well, Chad, since that WASN'T the statement made, you miss yet again. War was not mentioned. Do you think war is the only evil committed in the name of religion? How ridiculous. I suppose the murder of Dr. Tiller doesn't count as "evil" in your book. How about the actions of Eric Rudolph? Those okay with you?
With all the suffering going on in the world today, wars, famine, disease, abuse, neglect, starvation, evil, wickedness and such. Why would anyone worship a "god" that would allow this to happen? You would think that occasionally he he would raise "his mighty hand", say "enough is enough" and smite a few of these people even before they had the chance to act. Why? Because he only exists in the feeble, brain washed minds of the weak that need to believe in something. They were brain-washed early on by their parents and their parents, et al. If they were told that Santa Claus and the tooth fairy were real and Jesus and god were fake they wouldn't know the difference to this day. I pity those people because one day they will know they were "had" and wasted so many sundays...LOL
@Hugh G. Rection
Most suffering on earth is caused by human beings, whereby I don't want to deny that there is some mischief, which is not caused by man.
The problem is that we are not in the state, for which God has created us and thus lack God's shelter. Actually the enormous testimony of the Creation should us lead to worship the Creator. But what are we doing? Everything is more important for us than God. We adore idols like capital, work, social status, our car, real demons, TV, etc.. Something is wrong with us. We don't seek God's friendship by nature. On the contrary, we try to repress every memory of God from our mind. Actually we are enemies of God. Like Adam failed to enjoy God's friendship and finally was seduced by Satan, we lack God's presence and instead of God we adore our idols.
Hence, we need to return to God. God has proved his love a second time by the offering of his beloved Son. Actually the Creation alone proves that there must be a loving God. Yet Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, proved God's love again by his death for us and by his good deeds (Jesus made blind men seeing, deaf men hearing, lame men going and even raised people from the dead).
This Jesus can protect us from every danger, either caused by other human beings or by the nature. When the Angel of the Lord is with us, nothing can harm us without God's permission.
Most suffering on Earth is caused by human beings, which were "created in his image and likeness."
Yes, but together with Adam the whole mankind experienced a fall and abandoned it's happy state.
Read Genesis and see that Adam had no appropriate appreciation for God's presence and thus God created animals and finally Eve as friends for Adam, because he felt so lonesome. It is hard to answer the question why Adam was not content with God's presence and longed for other things. However, what we can assess is that we are similar to Adam. We don't seek God's community by nature and thus don't manage to cope with life in righteousness. We stumple from one misery to the next one, because we are not in the sphere of eternal, divine life, but in the sphere of death and damnation.
Adam became unhappy because he did not appreciate God's community. It is the same with us.
Thank God, there is a way back to God's presence. This way is Jesus Christ, who offered himself for us on the cross.
“This Jesus can protect us from every danger, either caused by other human beings or by the nature”.
If this was true, we would see Christians surviving disasters better than non Christians. This does not happen (remember the 3 good Christians at Yosemite park that slipped over the falls last summer?). Jesus provides no detectable protection. This is another piece of evidence that Jesus does not exist.
Ranier (and others like him) are connected to reality by only the slenderest of threads. At least we know about this thread and the we have the predictability of their behavior. I wonder what havoc we might cause by breaking it? Left to think for themselves, who knows what other co.ckamamie stuff they would dream up?
@Scott – other
Yes, even a Christian can experience any mischief, but at least his whole life is under God's control.
When Jesus was executed, many people thought God would not help him, but it was God's decision that he had to die for the mankind. Also a Christian can experience any trouble, which is part of a higher divine good plan.
*sorry... it's 'Rainer'
@Rainer – "When Jesus was executed, many people thought God would not help him, but it was God's decision that he had to die for the mankind." So, your god is not only homicidal and filicidal, but also suicidal as the son and father are the same (the concept of the trinity, if I'm not mistaken). Now, aren't each of those a sin in Christianity? Please explain that one...constraining yourself to the rules of reason, if possible.
@Hmmmm "." So, your god is not only homicidal and filicidal, but also suicidal as the son and father are the same (the concept of the trinity, if I'm not mistaken)."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
God set up the system of an atoning sacrifice from the beginning, thousands of years before Jesus came to this earth.
Did you know that the word "scapegoat" (Scapegoating is the practice of singling out any party for unmerited negative treatment or blame") actually has it's origins in the Hebrew language and refers to the practice commanded by God for the Jewish High Priest to lay the sins of the people on a goat, which is sent to the desert to die as sacrifice.
Jewish animal sacrifice was a ritualized system by which the death of the animal would atone for the sin of the people.
The notion that human sin can be atoned for by sacrificial death was set up by God from the beginning.
Jesus Christ, the "blameless sacrificial lamb" having fulfilled the law and leading a blameless life, offered Himself as an atoning sacrifice for us, dieing on the cross for our sin.
It cant properly be called "suicide" (the intentional act of causing ones own death) as He did not kill himself, but was killed by the Roman authorities. He also knew that he would rise again on the third day, so it doesnt fit that definition.
Jesus could have stopped it at any time, but chose not to knowing what would come later as a result.
God cant be called homicidal, since He didnt kill Jesus, you and I did(Roman authorities actually killed Him, but He had to die because of you and I)
Unfortunately, humans created the situation where we are estranged from God.
God has provided one way back to Him.
"The notion that human sin can be atoned for by sacrificial death was set up by God from the beginning."
You monster!... and so's your god!
@OY – Yup...the irrational nonsense is right in front of them and they can't – even when they speak it – see it for the load of rubbish it is.
“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”
@Hmmm... "“ for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”"
See that a lot, and really it is utter nonsense.
Fact of the matter:
"In their Encyclopedia of Wars, authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They doc ument 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict." Wikipedia Religious War
You have to use Wikipedia to exonerate your religion?
Apparently, chaddy thinks war is the only 'evil' committed by the religious extremists.
Hmmm, you're spot on.
I have no objection to chad worshipping a deity as he sees fit. I simply find it silly that he thinks others should live by his beliefs.
@Chad – "See that a lot, and really it is utter nonsense." Again, hmmm...do you really think you're qualified to ascertain that the thoughts of a Nobel laureate are "utter nonsense"? Come on Chad...you're making it way to easy.
@Tom, Tom: Spot on. To paraphrase the Bard, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Chad, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
@Hmmm....do you really think you're qualified to ascertain that the thoughts of a Nobel laureate are "utter nonsense"? Come on Chad...you're making it way to easy."
Freeman Dyson criticized Weinberg's remark: "And for bad people to do good things—that [also] takes religion."
Nobel physics laureate Steven Weinberg [has] state[ed] that the Nobel committee has "fleeced" Dyson [by not awarding him a Nobel]
in any case, regardless of what those two guys (one for and one against apparently) think, any claim that religion caused more war than 7%, is demonstrably false.
Let's see if CNN posts this where I intended THIS time: Well, Chad, since that WASN'T the statement made, you miss yet again. War was not mentioned. Do you think war is the only evil committed in the name of religion? How ridiculous. I suppose the murder of Dr. Tiller doesn't count as "evil" in your book. How about the actions of Eric Rudolph? Those okay with you?
If you want to back up your claims then perhaps you shouldn't be referencing a website that has the following disclaimer in large font at the very top of the screen:
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
It needs additional citations for verification. Tagged since June 2009.
It may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Tagged since July 2009.
Its introduction may need to be rewritten to comply with Wikipedia's lead section guidelines. Tagged since July 2009.
Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since September 2010.
=>Hmm.. quotes Steven Weinberg saying religion causes good people to do bad things.
=>Chad quotes: "(Well known mathematician Freeman Dyson has criticized Weinberg's remark: "And for bad people to do good things—that [also] takes religion.")"
note: BOTH statements are on the same wiki page, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg
=>Hmm.. attempts to dodge by saying that the wiki page for Freeman Dyson has a request for further info at the top.
@Tom: "I suppose the murder of Dr. Tiller doesn't count as "evil" in your book. How about the actions of Eric Rudolph? Those okay with you"
=>eric deserves life imprisonment for what he did.
Extremely isolated acts of violence from isolated crazies cant really compare with systemic violence against unborn children. Eric Rudolph killed 2 people and injured 150 others and deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail.
Abortion murders 1.21 MILLION babies a year. Over 3000 a day.
If you want to figure out how much evil is in the world (without counting wars, of which we know 7% are attributed to religious roots), lets start here:
– the murder of unborn children 1.21 million/year
– Deaths under Stalin/Pol Pot/Communist regimes >20million
or, you could google "Christian relief agencies" tens of thousands.. and compare that with "Atheist relief agencies" ~50, TOTAL.
Tom: your statement is not based in any fact, of any kind, any where.
What's really depressing is that we already had this discussion. Chad has cited the causes of war study before, and it was pointed out then that war is not the only evil that humans visit upon one another and indeed most persecutions and even genocidal atrocities, precisely because they are so one sided, aren't labelled as wars. But here's Chad, once again just repeating his tired old misunderstandings.
Oh, and Chad: The person who said that it takes religion to make good people do bad things acknowledged the existence of bad people who do bad things for their own motives in the larger quote from which this quote is extracted. So, no, no one said that there would be no bad things w/o religion or that religion was necessary for evil. The point is that the grandiosity of religion leads people to think atrocities and persecution can serve some enormously greater good, and therefore they become acceptable to people who haven't so much lost their moral core as they have lose their rationality about truly demonstrable good really can be shown to come out of such things.
But the guy only got it partly right. Religions are a glaring example of the sort of absolutist philosophies where some people sacrifice themselves but more usually sacrifice others to at best extremely speculative and in reality wholly imaginary greater good. But philosophies like communism and fascism and of course old fashioned nationalism do the same thing and inspire the same horrid behaviors.
So you do approve of someone murdering a doctor who provides abortions?
Good to know.
Abortion isn't murder and no matter how often you attempt to say it is, it still won't make that true. "Murder" is a legal term. Even when abortions were illegal, they weren't "murder".
I don't believe abortion is evil.
@Chad: I hope you're still reviewing your posts because I see that you've now introduced your "right to life" views into the discussion and are attempting to support them with statistics. So, how do you feel about these stats?
According to the NIH (you can easily locate the source) –
– Approximately 50% of all pregnancies end by spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) before the woman knows she's pregnant.
– Approximately 15% – 25% of all known pregnancies end by spontaneous abortion.
If these statistics are true – and they come from an authoritative source – your god is the greatest abortionist in history.
How about that, Chad?
The only time, which really matters, is the current day, because it can be the last day of your life. After death Judgement Day approaches with light speed. Assumed, you would die today, subjectively you would experience Judgement Day today, because after death you lose every awareness of time. Even when your body would physically rest 500 years or more, subjectively it would be like a second for you. Are you aware of that fact?
Jesus once told his disciples that points of time and periods of time would not be their concern, but God's concern.
First evidence, Gospel of Matthew 24: Verses 3 and 36:
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Second evidence, Acts 1: Verses 6 and 7:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
This verses terminate every discussion about the time of the end of the world. God simply doesn't want reveal us this time. We cannot explore, what God doesn't want to reveal. End of story.
Only one thing matters: That we have true faith today. Do we live as faithful Christians currently, right now? If not, we should pray urgently that God, the Almighty, restores us by the Holy Spirit or, if we never had any faith, leads us to the knowlegde of his eternal Son Jesus Christ.
Not surprised you left out Matthew 24:34: "Verely I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.".
"Not surprised you left out Matthew 24:34: "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
For crying out loud, why do you, people who keep parroting how we Christians isolate the verses and use them to "make doctrines"... why do YOU take them and twist them as to prove YOUR points as valid?!
If you ar smart and coherent in your reasoning as you claim to be, then you could figure out out of context of Christ Jesus' words, that HE was addressing the question of His disciples about the times of His comming, i e, the last days...
Is it becaue you don't want to see, or is it just that you are blind as a bat so you can't see it?!
PRISM1234. I am sure you would agree that, in order to cite any author in support of a proposition, one must know something about the author – in order to know whether he is credible or not. So, given that you just cited the Gospel of Matthew, can you tell me:
(i) Who wrote the Gospel of Matthew, how do you know this and what do you know about this author that makes you accept what he wrote?
(ii) How long after the events decribed in his gospel did he write?
(iii) Was he an eyewitness to what he reported, or did he just rely on other people?
I would think that knowing such asic facts would be a necessary pre-requisite for taking what somebody says as, well, gospel, so I would be interested to hear your answer.
Matthew was one of the twelve apostles, who lived in close community together with Jesus. He was an eyewitness of Jesus miracles and homilies.
The New Testament came into being within the Early Church. The Early Church simply kept the memory that Matthew drafted the Gospel of Matthew (according to acts, after Jesus Ascension the apostles, including Matthew, participated in the leadership of the Church of Jerusalem. For more than a couple years leaders of other new Churches around the Mediterranean could travel to Jerusalem and ask Matthew, if he had drafted the gospel. Obviously there was no doubt that Matthew was the originator of his Gospel and thus it has got his name still today).
Please note: After Jesus Ascension his apostles were still active for a long time and the new believers, Churches and bishop could talk with them. The apostles were like living gospels. Thus, the testimony of the Lord Jesus was safely transmitted to the young worldwide Church.
Rianer, that is the traditional story made up by the Catholic church. It is highly dubious. The author never claims to have been an eyewitness to anything and recounts the story of where Jesus meets Matthew totally in the third person – i.e. "Christ went up to Matthew the tax collector", not "Christ came up to me."
The fact is, the person who wrote the Gospel of Matthew, whoever (s)he was, wrote about 35 years after Christ died and we have no the slightest idea who (s)he was.
@Ranier "This verses terminate every discussion about the time of the end of the world. God simply doesn't want reveal us this time. We cannot explore, what God doesn't want to reveal. End of story."
=>exactly, precisely true.
@Ranier: "Only one thing matters: That we have true faith today. Do we live as faithful Christians currently, right now? If not, we should pray urgently that God, the Almighty, restores us by the Holy Spirit or, if we never had any faith, leads us to the knowlegde of his eternal Son Jesus Christ.""
=>exactly, precisely true.
well said Ranier!
Chad and Rainer are stupid and deluded. The stupid part can't be fixed.
You forgot disingenuous.
You said "I am sure you would agree that, in order to cite any author in support of a proposition, one must know something about the author – in order to know whether he is credible or not........I would think that knowing such asic facts would be a necessary pre-requisite for taking what somebody says as, well, gospel, so I would be interested to hear your answer."
It's a matter of fact, I DO know something about the Author of the Book of Matthew, and the other Books of the Bible as well. Whether I know the names of the vessels the Author used to write down His Word, and preserve His testimony, it's really not relevant.
It is the Spirit of God, who is the Spirit of Truth, who TESTIFIES to the Truth, and gives DOSCERNMENT to those who seek Him, to be able to recognize it if it is from Him, or from an Impostor. That's how God's people KNOW what is from Him, and what is not.
When Christ Jesus came to this world only those who sought Him recognized Him. So it is today. Only those who seek Him will recognize Him, and will know what the Truth IS and what is NOT.
I hope you'll understadnd what I'm trying to say to you!
The truth of the Holy Bible
Yes, the Bible was written by human beings, but that doesn't contradict it's divine truth.
Science has proved that the Bible was widespread in the Roman Empire yet in the second century after Christ (ancient papyri). Very many very old copies of the New Testament and parts of the New Testament have survived. It is clear that when the copies of a book are very old the book itself must be very old. Thus, you can prove that the genuine New Testament was written not long after Jesus' Ascension.
Still when the people of the Roman Empire were aware of the historical Jesus, the Bible spread. Assumed, the people had thought of Jesus or the apostles to be impostors, any refutation of the Bible had been drafted. As far as I know, no contemporary of Jesus or the apostles or someone, who lived some years after them, has drafted a refutation. Obviously, the stories of the New Testament were true and the people of the Roman Empire could not reject it, because there was no objective reason why they should reject it.
I explain the issue again by taking the example of the Holocaust, which is sometimes denied by wicked people.
Still today, many decades after the Holocaust, nobody can deny it without being accused as a liar. Somebody could even get punished for that. Of course, in 500 years someone could dare to deny the Holocaust and all the more someone, who lives 1000 years later. But even in 3000 years copies of docu-ments, confirming the Holocaust, will probably be found and can be used to prove the historical truth of the Holocaust.
Thank God, that the old papyri were found in the dry desert of Egypt, where thy did not rot.
What "divine" truth is this?
You're right that books from the NT were around in 200AD, the Bible was Canonized in the Third Century. You'd be hard pressed to find a canonization from before that, because it didn't exist! The books themselves were around before that though. First Theologans was written at around 50AD by Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus. There were many books that didn't make the cut like, "The book of Mary", "The book of Judas" or the "Book of Baby Jesus".
Define "not long"? Jesus's ascention has always thought to have taken place around 35CE. The first books written about Jesus were the books written by Paul. These came at around 50AD. This is where the "Death"/"Resurrection" and "Ascention" came from. All other dogma behind the story of Christ came from the Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Starting with Mark, being that's the oldest book).
Being that Matthew was a tax collector, I'm pretty sure that he could write. Just like if he had that many followers, at least one of them would know how to write. If something as great and powerful as the son of the one true God being in their midst isn't an inspiration to write, I don't know what is... Do you? I see plenty of drivel on facebook.. I would think that an event like that, a lot of people would ditch their Jewish religion, write historically about it, and become Christians.
So, if Jesus was so magical and so many people saw him ascend, wouldn't there be others that would have seen him ascend and possibly written about it rather than 12 people that didn't write a thing about Jesus? Instead we wait for 15 years until Paul has a vision of Jesus Christ. We wait another 15-20 years to have the first book of Matthew written, by an anonymous author.
Paul never claimed to have met Jesus Christ and the death/resurrection was thought to have happened on a spiritual plane. 20 years after First Theologans came Mark, then Matthew, then Luke. So, what's your definition of "not long"? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? If sentenced to prison, I would be thinking 15-20 years is a pretty long time. wouldn't you agree?
It is absolutely necessary to believe that the Bible and all her stories are true. Imagine that the Bible did not come into being within a vacuum, but within the real living pagan society of the Roman Empire. The message of the Bible was so convincing that in the course of time the Romans forsake their pagan idols and accepted Christianity as their new religion. If the stories of the Bible had not been historical or true, the Bible had been annihilated by the anti-Christian pagan Roman high priests or arch-pagans.
For many years there lived a lot of eyewitness of Jesus ascension in Palestine and every Roman could travel to Jerusalem or one of the other Churches of ancient Palestine and ask for the truth of the story. Assumed, the story of Jesus' ascension had been false, it had never survived.
Lol your revolting superstition was impressed on the populace by brute coercion, you disingenuous clown.
@ Rainer Braendlein “Science has proved that the Bible was widespread in the Roman Empire yet in the second century after Christ (ancient papyri).”
The first instance we have of any Christian author urging that our current twenty seven books, and only these twenty-seven, should be accepted as Scripture occurred in the year 361 ce,
- Ehrman Lost scriptures page 3
You’re very good at using weasel words; but, let’s try an shine a little light through the fog. “Thus, you can prove that the genuine New Testament was written not long after Jesus' Ascension.” You’re very good at using weasel words. How long is “not long”? 10 minutes? 50 years? 400 years? Do you mean all of the NT was complete after “not long” or some small part of it can be traced back to then?
@Scott: I don't think Rainer is using "weasel words"... he most likely is honestly explaining his beliefs and is, unfortunately, not very bright. No hostility intended Rainer...just cutting to the chase.
"You shall know them by their whiskers"
Camping is insane as was JC. JC's family and friends had it right 2000 years ago ( Mark 3: 21 "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself."
Said passage is one of the few judged to be authentic by most contemporary NT scholars. e.g. See Professor Ludemann's conclusion in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 24 and p. 694
Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.
Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospel being mostly fiction.
Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European/Utah, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!
So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?
why do ppl believe in this fantasy? Because their minds refuse to believe that life is what it is, we just exist, and after we die, we are not dieties that live in another realm, our physical bodies return the earth and we cease to be.
Not quite as our lives linger forever in our blog comments as long a the Google, Yahoo and Bing servers survive 🙂
Not quite as our lives linger forever in our blog comments as long as the Google, Yahoo and Bing servers survive. 🙂
The reason there is one singular God (other than the Bible tells us so) is because God is perfect in all ways. You cannot have more than one who is perfect in all ways or they would be duplicates in the same space and time and could not be differentiated. The “gods” you toss about like Zeus etc. left no impact of significance when compared to God. You even know who I am speaking about. I do not need to say the God of Abraham or Jesus because you knew already. You knew it when you got up this morning. You know the God atheists will not bow down to. Yep, the other gods you mention are myth yet this God that gets talked about all day long is different somehow and you cannot put your finger on it.
"You know the God atheists will not bow down to."
We don't accept that such a god exists. It is difficult for us to bow down to a god that we don't believe in. As a matter of fact we are not required to bow down to anything or anyone...that sounds more like dictatorship than anything good.
You see, we don't follow your book of fairy-tales. We also don't believe in talking snakes, or ONE boat that carried a sample of the planet's fauna. You also mentioned that Zeus et. al. had no imact of significance. You DO know that a very large statue of Zeus is listed as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world? Sounds significant to me. At that time, there was no global communication, nor global transit. Had there been, then the messages of the ancient Greeks and Romans would have surely been spread during that time. The Native Americans had no idea of monotheism until the Spaniards came. Look what they did in the name of their "god". I know what your book says, I was imprisoned within the confines of a religious education for over a decade. TruthPrevails is right. It IS a dictatorship. "Do what I say and want or I will send you to a place of pain torture anguish and suffering". Didn't Hitler, Stalin and a host of others say that very thing? You're just telling a story that's many thusands of years old, just with a "new and improved" sticker on the box. Nothing new about it, and certainly nothing improved. How can one improve upon a myth, except by embellishing it even more?
"The reason there is one singular God (other than the Bible tells us so) is because God is perfect in all ways."
Says you...that's not a reason...it's an excuse. An excuse for rejecting all other gods in favor of the one you happen to believe in. Oh your God is perfect all right...perfectly unverifiable, perfectly incompetent. perfectly abominable and perfectly ridiculous which makes you perfectly brain-washed for maintaining your belief.
What fred doesn't understand is tha twe are all atheists to some degree, we just believe in one less god than he does. Oonce he understands why he has dismissied all those other gods, he'll finally realize why we dismiss his as well. He also needs to learn that history has proven that yesterday's religions are today's mythology, and come tomorrow, today will be yesterday. In time, his "god" too shall pass. I'd like to know just how a "perfect god" can 'create' imperfect beings, then make us ask this "god" for forgiveness by "him" for those imperfections .... I'm trying to see any logic in that.. sounds pretty effin' selfish to me... shouldn't that magical invisible sky-fairy king be asking US to forgive "him" for not making us perfect? ... your turn fred
Fred is, I'm guessing, about 60 years old and living in a home where he is treated daily for his mental disorder. What gets me is that he sits here and spews on about stuff he has never taken the time to research. I doubt he has ever read his book of fables in its entirety or he too would be an Atheist. Pointing out the contradictions in the buybull or the horror stories in it, only gives him and others like him a chance to conjure up what that stuff means in their own peti.te minds. Facing reality is hard for these people b/c reality is frightening at the best of times, so they cozy up with their buybull and pray to air to makes themselves feel better. He'd be a bumbling mess shaking in a corner if he was forced to face the truth. He thinks he is so special for believing the lies his parents told him...news flash here FreddyBoy-you are not special by any means. These morons refuse to look at how horrible their god really is. What kind of sick per.verse thing would impregnate a virgin when it preaches against having children outside of wedlock? What kind of sick per.verse thing would make its only son suffer and die for the sins of the people it created? What kind of sick per.verse thing would order someone to ki.ll their own child only to turn around and say 'fooled ya'? The arrogance and ignorance that christianity allows for is an illness and there is nothing good about it. These morons think that if they threaten us with eternal fire and a horrible afterlife, that we will fall to them and join in their delusions. They can't accept the fact that my fate is my issue and not theirs. They spend too much time praying for our supposed souls and don't spend enough time correcting their own lives. What a horribly sad life!
Hey Fred, Ain't that the awesome truth! Why else would any article about the Almighty God evoke such a desire among the atheists to keep coming back? It stirs in them a longing, to know, to connect to God.
"Why else would any article about the Almighty God evoke such a desire among the atheists to keep coming back? It stirs in them a longing, to know, to connect to God."
A better analogy would be to think of us like Neo in the Matrix movies – we're trying to set you free from a cage you don't know you're in.
"Why else would any article about the Almighty God evoke such a desire among the atheists to keep coming back? "
Some of us are sick and tired of having to fight for scientific truth against your mythology that you try to poison our childrens' minds with. It isn't enough that we are near the bottom of the industrialized world and have lost our manned space program and world leadership in manufacturing, computers and physics. You people won't be happy until we are all bumpkins sitting around on farms like it's 1825 again.
Some of us are not atheists. But we are tired of extremists like you attempting to rescind the rights we have in a secular nation.
Tom Tom said and straight up he hates God because Tom Tom likes doing things which for 3,400 years have been taboo. Thanks for being honest. That is the first step in setting yourself free from the bondage of sin.
TruthPrevails and Mirosal refuse to believe there is anything or anyone that can rule over them or say what is right or wrong.
Hellbent you are right on, non believers need neo ! Fast
Check the records it was when we honored God that America went to the moon and sent back quotes from the Bible as man looked back upon the wonderful world God made for man.
When we dishonored God we slipped from grace. When America went from a nation of Christians spreading the gospel throughout the world to a the number one exporter of P0rn in the world that we slipped off the mountain.
I believe there are laws, there are crimes, and there are punishments for said crimes. I do not believe in "sin" because there is no "god" to sin against. I obey the laws of my land. I do not bow down to an imaginary sky-fairy that is mentioned in a book almost 2000 years old, that contains stories that were ancient at the time said book was conceived. It is solely because of your little book that humanity was held back for centuries because legitimate science contradi-cted what your sooth-sayers in power were telling others what they thought should be believed. So if YOU want others to dictate what you eat, who you sleep with, and are willing to let THEM tell you how they want YOU to live your life, go ahead and submit to them. It's apparent you are unable to think for yourself, and cannot make decisions for your own life so you let a book of myths do your talking for you
Where did I state that I 'hated God"? Do cite chapter and verse. And what things do I "like to do" that have been taboo for 3000 years? Name one.
Well you would be one of the very rare people on this plant that only bend to the durmmer of their choice. What a bunch of Hoo. Perhaps you are only 16 because at that age we all brag no body tells me what to do. Everyone can take a hike I honor no one, bow to nothing.
Durmmer? Plant? Hoo? I think Mirosal has you all het up, fred. And by the way, we can go through life, doing what we are obliged to do, and still not bow to anyone. I respect, but I don't bow. I make my own living, I pay my own bills, I deal with my own problems and I respect those who earn my respect. When I was a child, my parents took care of me, but now I take care of myself.
I feel sorry for any adult who needs a supernatural father figure to go through life. Really. Because as far as I'm concerned, that's the ultimate immaturity.
Tee Hee...morons everywhere....BOO! These kind of people dont procreate do they? Can we FORCE them to use birth control? What a waste of oxygen....
Birth control is against their religion lol They have it in their brain-washed heads that s3x is dirty nasty evil and a "sin" until marriage, then for some reason it becomes this magical symbol of love and their everlasting union ... until the juudge sings their divorce decree lol
damn typos ... I meant until the judge SIGNS their decree, although a singing judge might not be so bad lol
Let's hear it for divorce decrees being set to music...
With regard to your previous comment:The reason there is one singular God (other than the Bible tells us so) is because God is perfect in all ways. You cannot have more than one who is perfect in all ways or they would be duplicates in the same space and time and could not be differentiated. The “gods” you toss about like Zeus etc. left no impact of significance when compared to God. You even know who I am speaking about. I do not need to say the God of Abraham or Jesus because you knew already. You knew it when you got up this morning. You know the God atheists will not bow down to. Yep, the other gods you mention are myth yet this God that gets talked about all day long is different somehow and you cannot put your finger on it.
You talk about the differences between polytheistic and monotheistic. All this modern myth has done is taken the peanut butter god and combined it with the chocolate god and now it's called Reese's. Same mythys, just rolled into one package
If you are so righteous in your opinion, why weren't you affected by the rapture? Oh, wait, that's right, a made-up modern-day belief about the believing in an ancient being .. I got it now.
How strange, fred. The other side says the same thing about YOUR 'god'. In fact, they ALL do.
Belief does not equal fact.
We knew what god you were talking about because it's the dominant topic on these message boards and is what the article is about.
I just love the illogic that copiously flows whenever theists try to give logical arguments for why things must be the way their favorite theology says they are.
Yeah, John, they remind me of Carnack, Johnny Carson's character on the Tonight Show.
Of course. Since Christians haven’t been able to decided on a name for their god and since they are the biggest religious club in the country it has become common practice to reference the Christian god as God with a capital “G”. I guarantee you that in the Mid East when you write god or even God (or Allah as it is spelled in their language) people do not think of the Christian god
Yeah ! Sunday is here so I can church, I have been waiting all week for this. Time for some good news, how to love your neighbor, even in this neighborhood. Have a great Sabbath !
Awww... ain't that a shame. Poor fred has to go tell his imaginary friend how much he's adored worshipped and revered, and offer this fairy all the praise fred can muster. Oh, and don't forget to give this "thing" all your money, because we all know how much "god" needs it. fred has to go sit down once a week so he can give his money to some idiot who can't get a real job tell him how to live according to the wishes of a fairy-tale book. Remember fred, if you don't do exactly what this guy wants, you'll be burned and tortured and in pain for all eternity. Isn't fear a great motivator? I fear not your "god" or your "devil", for as a free thinker, it's within my power to kill them off with reason, logic and common sense. If anything, your imaginary "savior" should be afraid of ME.
fred, why do you have to wait "all week for this"? Isn't your church open to all every day? Can't you pray and worship without being in it? Is Sunday the only day you hear the good news?
You make it sound like you can't be among others who believe as you do unless it's Sunday and you're in a special building made just for that.
It is just a breath of fresh air. I leave my phone at home, all the daily grind and hang with believers worshiping God. Just a small window in time where no one calls you a moron an calls your God a fairy. A break from a world that seems upside down. Whether God turns out to real or not down the road simply giving praise lifts the soul regardless. To follow the 10 commandments brings me joy regardless what happens after I die. At my funeral I hope no one thinks I did not give them all I could while I was around. Just like you when I die truth will be known. Just like you when I live I am doing the best I can. You have things that bring you joy and just like you I have things that bring me joy.
If you are right what difference does anything make at death?
Fred, no one cares what you personally believe. It's when you try to create laws that dictate your beliefs to others, or try to remove real science from schools in favor of invented religious propaganda, that people take offense.
Goes both ways as for the last 50 years all the laws put in by place that you seem to find so offensive have been kicked out. The only abortion that is outlawed is choaking a 8 month old baby to death after someone that calls himself a doctor delivers the baby. They give it nice tidy name partial birth abortion. It came about when doctors know abortion at any stage is acceptable. So to keep from calling it choaking a live kicking baby they do not deliver the baby all the way and part of it stays in the "mother" until the doctor is done choaking it. Thus the baby is delivered aborted not killed.
Ho mo$exuals can do as they please but they simply can never be married as a man and a woman. They can be married as a man man, woman woman, sister sister, etc etc but can never be one man and one woman. Tell your congressman to strip away all marriage benefits. The purpose of the benefits go back to the day when a man brought home the pay check and mom raised the kids. That does not happen anymore. Strip strip strip away all the marriage benefits and perks and do it quick. You claim we are not giving equal rights to ho mo $exuals well we have no money left as it is. We cannot give anything more away and it is time to strip away. Anyone that wants a marriage liscense come and get it. Anyone married before the year 2009 gets to keep any and all benefits of marriage. Anyone married after 2009 receive the same benefits as single people do. There we are all equal now. Just stop bashing christians for something they had nothing to do with.
Stemcells? Turns out they are no good anyway when taken from aborted babies as to use with humans. Turns out science gets all the supposed aborted stemscells they want anyway so most just go to waste. It is only a political issue no real change regardless of law.
Tell me tallulah13 what other therrible laws are on the books from that killer God that must be stripped away? Those ugly hateful christians must have some other laws on the books that reflect the hateful beasts that they are.
Fred, gays and lesbians cannot legally marry or even get civil unions in every state. Most of the opposition still comes from religious groups who wish to use their faith as a tool of discrimination. There are still people and states trying to remove a woman's right to have an abortion or to make is so difficult that only the wealthy can afford them. Again, one needs only to look to the "faithful" to see who is behind most of the proposed laws.
There is still no equality, and people like you grudge women and gays every little step.
You're the one who asked what difference it makes what you believe. I answered: No one cares what you believe, as long as you don't try to create laws that dictate your beliefs to others, or try to remove real science from schools in favor of invented religious propaganda. That's your answer.
fred, embryonic stem cells are not and never have been "taken from aborted babies." This kind of misinformation and lack of knowledge on your part makes everything else you say suspect.
Sorry for my las post like that, I was replying to someone and the reply was put in a different place. Sorry for the confusion. My firewall at work won't let me view page 32, I don't know why.
Thanks for keeping us in the loop...
Page 32 has a Blondie video from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwk55zeWMH8&feature=player_embedded on it – maybe that's what's hitting your firewall.
Baby Jesus is using Deborah Harry to censor Mirosal? That baby jesus is a devious little s.o.b., somebody should give him a time-out.
Thanks, Frank, for today's bout of tear-inducing laughter...!
frank is right ... jesus was an s.o.b. ... his mother was a teenage bi-tc-h who got knocked up by her boyfriend, so jesus was just a bas-t-a-rd. And religious people like to spout off about morality and values, yet their own "savior" was nothing more than the product of a hor-ny teenage couple. Or do you REALLY belive there was some mystical magical ethereal "spirit" from another dimeinsion that did it?
A herd of pigs could not hold the legion of demons Christ Jesus cast out from a posessed man, so they ran violently into the sea..BUT ONE MAN COULD!.
YOU really are shoiwing WHAT IS IN YOU!!
Oh, get a grip, Priscilla. There are no "legions of demons" or "herds of pigs" anywhere in sight. Maybe you should move to a better zip code, honey.
“Now repeat after me….without wands please….repeat after me, Riddikulus!” – Professor Lupin in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Wow. I can quote books too!
oh golly gee whiz did I upset little miss prizm?? gee I feel terrible ... wait, no I don't. I really have NO idea what she is referrencing with this herd of pigs and legions of demons stuff. As far as what's in me, the same stuff inside of you. Heart lungs kidneys stomach, bladder et al. But the one difference is that my brain is actually wired to produce thoughts and ideas, yours is obviously shunted straight to ground.
Well, well !...... Here we have some really great examples of seasoned maturity presented to us by proud american atheists! !.... Way to go!
Keep spewing, we need to see more!