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 Some Christian denominations have officially welcomed gays and lesbians in recent years.
October 25th, 2011
12:09 PM ET
My Take: Why Christians are embracing their LGBT neighborsEditor’s note: Ross Murray is director of religion, faith and values at GLAAD, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. By Ross Murray, Special to CNN America is embracing its lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens. Don’t believe me? Just look at the progress being made in faith communities. The Christian church was once considered the final holdout for those who oppose equality for LGBT people. Staunch believers could gather in worship with people who thought just like them to hear sermons affirming the anti-LGBT beliefs they held in common. For those of us who identify as LGBT, church was a place of fear and secrets. We had to figure out how to hide ourselves or how to find a more welcoming community. But that is changing. Although there is still a variety of scriptural interpretations, an increasing number of Christians are reading scripture and understanding that God’s design for the world includes LGBT people. It follows, good Christians believe, that if God made them, then I am called to love and support them. Whole Christian denominations have accepted and embraced the reality of LGBT believers within their ranks and in their leadership. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ and Unitarians have formally accepted LGBT people within their denominations. Even within denominations and faith groups whose policies don’t fully welcome LGBT people, there are growing numbers of people who have learned to love and accept their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters. The Public Religion Research Institute found this year that as many as 71% of Catholics in America support lesbian and gay people, even up to the point of civil marriage, despite the Roman Catholic hierarchy telling them otherwise. Of course, there still are Christian groups who work actively against equal protections for LGBT people and their families. Indeed, as more Americans get to know and love their LGBT neighbors, the messages and vocal misinformation of anti-gay activists become even more shrill. And yet more and more Christians are now living out the message of 1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear.” How did this happen? More Christians now know someone who is LGBT. They probably even know someone from their church. There are countless faithful Christians who identify as LGBT. These are folks who have found their faith in God to be stronger than the opposition of vocal anti-gay activists. These LGBT Christians have shared their lives and their stories that build up love and break down fear, leading to tangible progress, especially with young people. According to the Public Religion Research Institute, there is at least a 20-point gap between those ages 18 to 29 and those ages 65 and older on every public policy measure in the survey concerning equality for gay and lesbian people, with younger Americans gravitating toward equality. Even Christian-identified young people increasingly support protections for lesbian and gay people, the same survey found. Those who oppose equality can call it what they like, but the reality is that we are living in a society that has learned how to value LGBT people as they would others. That attitude doesn’t rely on fear or lies, but on caring relationships and trust. It lives out the apostle Paul’s wish for the Corinthians that someday we will know fully, even as we are fully known. It is a biblically informed reality that is helping to make the world a better place. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Ross Murray. soundoff (2,403 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Next »
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Real Deal – one problem something does not come from nothing. That's why we say creation because it is not infinite. Yet God is – since that is why He said "I AM"
John,
"one problem something does not come from nothing."
Yep. So who created God?
John, "He said "I AM"
Well, some human guy said that "He" said that. So what?
Someone else could say, "IT IS" - "IT" being existence.
Observer
In the beginning God created the heaven and earth. No creation is greater than its creator. God is eternal. We look up from a fixed point in time and space unable to imagine or grasp no begining or end.
Believers: Agnostics and atheists are wrong because for something to exist, something must have created it
Believers: God exists.
Believers: Nothing created God.
"In the beginning God created the heaven and earth. No creation is greater than its creator. God is eternal. "
Yup but what created god? OH I know...man did with his wonderful imagination. Come on if you believe god is real then Pandora in Avatar is real!
Seriously
ok, so you tell me why it all began and what your purpose is
"ok, so you tell me why it all began and what your purpose is"
Like EVERYONE else in the world, we DON'T know. Wishful thinking doesn't make for FACT. Not believing in what many people feel is nonsense in the Bible has nothing to do with the question. Eliminating one possible answer does not force a second answer.
fred, "We look up from a fixed point in time and space unable to imagine or grasp no begining or end."
Unable to imagine or grasp the situation, indeed... but you (believers) INSIST on having an answer anyway.
@fred
"Why it all began"?
I'm afraid that both science and religion are stumped when it comes to "why".
Genesis doesn't address the reason God began creation – it is one of countless myths that tries to explain "how".
Observer
Real Deal
The Bible is a story of God redeeming a people for Himself. It is for believers. Anyone can become a believer. The Bible is the answer for believers, it is the truth. Something happens when the Holy Spirit enters and you believe. You are a changed person from that day forward.
"The Bible is a story of God redeeming a people for Himself. "
LOL that's why according to your story it killed so many in the beginning, then left a book with multiple ways to interpret because it couldn't write it itself. Yeah...some god you got going on there. LOL!
@fred, who says we have to have a purpose?
Doc
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son so that those who believe on Him will have life eternal. Clear? It is called love, perfect love, endless love.
Each step of the creation process God said and it was GOOD ! It was part of His goodness that he wanted to share.
@fred
Perhaps you believe that the reason the universe exists is simply to have US in it...
While the idea of an anthropocentric universe is comforting to the ego, it seems rather unlikely given our ultimate insignificance in the face of infinity.
If you ever get the chance to visit the ocean, I suggest you plunge your hand straight in, then slowly pull it out.
When you appreciate the difference you made, you'll start the journey towards accepting life as it is instead of accepting comforting myths.
"A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion – any religion – is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both."
[Robert A. Heinlein, from "Friday"]
Duh
Stop twisting the killings and such around. It is a decpetion like Eve fell for to keep you away from God. The storys of the killings have glaring at you the bigger story of love and redemption.
"For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son so that those who believe on Him will have life eternal. Clear? It is called love, perfect love, endless love."
God sacrificed himself, to himself, to appease himself, to change a rule that he made in the first place. LMAO!
"Stop twisting the killings and such around. It is a decpetion like Eve fell for to keep you away from God."
Your god did kill you are the one deceiving yourself. LOL~
"Stop twisting the killings and such around. It is a decpetion like Eve fell for to keep you away from God."
In other words, ignore the parts where god is a sadistic, cruel monster. Those are inconvenient. Just pay attention to the good stuff.
Got it.
HellBent
Close your eyes relax and tell me if you sense a soul, tell me is that soul tied down or just floating out there somewhere in the darkness.
Your purpose is to get out of that darkness. It is like a dense fog that has no light in or out.
Get out of that now, not tomorrow. Your purpose is to free yourself from the bondage of what this life has saddled you with. The alternative is a possibility that for eternity all you see or feel is that darkness.
Hey, I am, too, and I'm not infinite!
Anyway, being infinite isn't terribly impressive. There are infinitely many multiples of 71. I do not bow down before that set.
Anyway, this whole discussion is the most tiresome of all time. Until someone can explain where god came from, the god hypothesis is a total non-starter. And don't just say he's infinite. The set of multiples of 71 is infinite, but we can set rules to generate it. What generated god?
Duh
You caught me on that one I had to stop and think as Jesus did say you must die to self and take up my cross if you want to follow me.
"HellBent
Close your eyes relax and tell me if you sense a soul"
Nope.
"Close your eyes relax and tell me if you sense a soul, tell me is that soul tied down or just floating out there somewhere in the darkness."
Dude – it's all in your head, it's why people can be brainwashed, hypnotized – it's all in your head. You are 70% water, you can feel that water in you. – No soul. Yes you had something terrible happen you turned to an invisible god to get you through but deep down it just was you all along. It's a funny thing what the brain does when you can't handle stress or a terrible thing that has happened to you. It's why traumatic accidents many people can't remember – the brain knows you don't need too, its too hard on your system. Come on dude come back to reality, wake up to enjoying life as yourself.
"You caught me on that one I had to stop and think as Jesus did say you must die to self and take up my cross if you want to follow me."
So you have to pay for the mistakes your god make wow that is one sick dude.
JohnR
I don't follow the 71 as its multiples have a beginning and a creator. Eternity is a closed set with infinite boundries. God is
"God is"
Santa Claus is
"Eternity is a closed set with infinite boundries."
Does that actually make sense in your head? Were you trying to see how many oxymorons you could come up with in a single sentence?
""God is"
Santa Claus is"
No, No...TinkerBell is!
Duh
I cannot enjoy life and pay for the mistakes God made at the same time.
Oh, wait Jesus said "it is finished", I don't need to pay for my mistakes God paid in full ! I am free
Seriously
As Bill Clinton said it depends on what you denfination of IS is
@fred What exactly do you consider a "closed set with infinite boundaries" to be?
My little sermonette on the set of multiples of 71 was simply meant to point out the absurdity of assuming that simply claiming the god is infinite makes him/her/it the indisputable creator of anything. There are lots of infinite things that for sure didn't create the universe.
Doc
You said:"appropriate for the weak, not for the strong."
Interesting this is the basis of Paul when he said in my weakness I am strong and considered weakness a gift from God.
You said:"One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both."
Actually, there is a bleak certainty for faith also in that Jesus said you will be persecuted in my name. Yet, even so we can bask at the warm fire as Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world...........so we look to the kingdom not our current pain.
John R
One of the attributes of God is that God is eternal. Given no boundries infinite cannot escape. The Bible itself is an infinite loop within which the chosen people of God continue their infinite loop. The beginning and end of our universe is starting to look more like a loop than a big bang. God is trying to show us something as He sits outside of all while at the same time we are within Him so to speak.
There is a point at which light and darkness will again be separated according to the Bible.
Yikes
@fred
"For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son so that those who believe on Him will have life eternal. Clear? It is called love, perfect love, endless love."
Our discussion pertains to the origin of the Universe.
You are referencing the New Testament, I am referencing the original.
If you refrain from bringing the sequel into discussions that pertain to the original's chapters, I'll refrain from pointing out the OT God's wrath and ridiculous commandments when we're talking about Christ.
That God zombiefied Himself to redeem that which He originally (though briefly) deemed "good" is not relevant to the question of why He decided to Create in the first place.
John: How do you make the leap from creator to "god"?
John Richardson
God is eternal which is all inclusive thus eternity is a closed set with no boundries.
∂Ω = Ω given Ω = {(x,y,0) | x2 + y2 ≤ 1}
John Richardson
oopps, I just confined God to disk. A better explanation would be Lebesgue's density theorem for a closed ball with an infinate radius
Doc
God created because He is Good so what He created was Good. Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and earth . Darkness (the same thing today repeated) then was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. God said let there be light and saw it was good so he separated the light from the darkness. After creation day 6 God saw all that He had made and said it was very Good and rested.
Given that right off the bat we see God create and then recreate good. Good would be the first written reason for why God created.
fred,
Just because YOU feel the need for a "purpose", does not mean there is one. Many things about the universe are non-intuitive. And as for your "creator"....well, to say it "created" the universe, ie STARTED the act of creation, BEFORE space-time existed, is the biggest bunch of BS there ever was, perpetrated by illogical minds.
Bucky
What do you have that tells you why the universe was created? At best if you agnostic or atheistic there is claim that an unknown force is behind it all and you hang your hats on how great that sounds to each other when you repeat it. We have the Word of God, the Word of Jesus. From what I can see that was the single largest impact in our civilization to date. Even the way you think and approach your non belief is based upon Christ.
I see the universe, evolution of the species, our piercing search for significance, our search for God or no God, miracles upon miracles that allow life to hang on the edge in a cold universe, the cross of Christ relfecting mans brokeness and Gods forgiviness in the year of our Lord AD 2011 all expressing the same hope for life as a signs that point to the glory and wonder of God.
This compares to your personal reasons of a few select that see nothing in the beginning and nothing at the end of the only journey they will ever have, not knowing or caring enough to stop and ask Jesus what is it I cannot see.
From p. 9:
o All "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
To wit:
o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "
"Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.
@ Reality:
"God made them that way" – that ignores "Abrahamics' " view that after the Fall (sin came into the world), being born a certain way does not make it ok.
If I was born with a proclivity to alcoholism, it doesn't make being an alcoholic ok. And it is not the way God intended. It's the effect of a corrupted world. And – to be clear – all Christians are equally (if not more so) corrupt. That's why Jesus had to die for them.
(from Professor Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."
"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."
@ Reality: while John Dominic Crossan may sell many books with his Jesus Seminar approach, he has been heavily refuted. He was forced to retract his claim that Jesus was a cynic philosopher (from his "Revolutionary Biography"). Read Tim Keller's "Reason for God", Luke Timothy Johnson's "The Real Jesus" or Richard Baukham's "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses."
Hmmm, Professor Crossan was "forced to retract his claim that Jesus was a cynic philosopher"? Specific reference please in the Professor's own words substantiated by him???
Some other references about the historic Jesus:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
Continued from above:
10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html
14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
Continued from above:
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/
19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/
22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html
23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf
Continued from above:
26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/
30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus
From p. 9:
A Christian is a person who has had their debt paid.(sins forgiven) In response they are expected to repent, which means to turn away from sin. Last time I checked everyone here knows that murder, lying, stealing and the such done by a so called Christian would only fuel the further criticism of the faith. So with that said ... a person who has had their dept paid is a Christian. If you died would you be innocent or guilty of breaking God's commandments. Have you ever lied?
Real Christians know that everyone is a sinner and no one ever stops sinning.. Jesus will straighten this John bloke out on this matter on judgment day.
While I am a staunch non-believer, I am glad to hear that some religions have received LGBTs. One day nobody will need the crutch of religion. But until then, LGBTs should not be excluded so they too can work through their religious dependencies like anyone else.
You may be received by someone's religion, but that is not the same as being received by God. No one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven wearing graveclothes. Read the Holy Bible.
We Should All Seek Wisdom, Job 28;20-28 From Where Then Does Wisdom Come ? And Where Is The Place Of Understanding? It Is Hidden From The Eyes Of The Living, And Concealed From The Birds Of The Air, Destruction And Death Say, We Have Heard A Report About It With Our Ears. God Understands It's Way, And He Knows Its Place. For He Looks To The Ends Of The Earth, And Sees Under The Whole Heavens, To Establish A Weight For The Wind, And Apportion The Waters By Measure, When He Made A Law For The Rain, And A Path For The Thunderbolt, Then He Saw Wisdom And Declared It; He Prepared It; Indeed, He Searched It Out. And To Man He Said ,Behold The Fear Of The Lord, THAT IS WISDOM ,And To Depart From Evil Is Understanding.
It is truly a mystery to me how people keep referring to religion as a crutch. Crutches are meant to keep you safe and sturdy when you are weak, but as far as I can see, people that adhere to religious beliefs are frequently berated in first world countries (just look through any set of internet comments or find the latest church/temple/mosque/synagogue vandalism story and very often socially and physically persecuted and abused for their faiths in second and third world areas of the world.
Christians, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Janes, Bahá'ís....
It is not safe to adhere to a religion. It is easier to go along with people like you to avoid being discriminated against.
I also find it ironic that "crutch" is a word mindlessly used by certain groups of people to declare that other groups of people are mindless for having faith.
HUG... have you heard of formal fallacy... your strong in that arena.
Poor Johny is all embarrassed about his hard on.....
Another question for all you christian fundies..
Do you believe in divorce?
Statistically speaking, divorce is a bigger issue in the Church than ho_mo_s_exuality.
AvdBerg – CULT ALERT – this is a troll – click the report abuse link to get rid of this piece of garbage. They lie and are only trying to sell their pathetic book.
God taught that a man and a woman become "one". Only in the case of adultery where the union has been broken is divorce permitted. And at no time is domestic violence permitted to a spouse. God stated that a man must love a woman as himself, Parents are not to exasperate their children and children are to honor their father and mother so that it may go well with them.
God said "I hate divorce" ......strong words
So the good Christians who "Just do not love him/her anymore", or "relationship seems like a drag" or "Bored of him/her" do break their promise that they make in front of god to "love till death do us part"?
How come it is never raised as being wrong by the good Christians as they do with LGBT? Where are all the bible quotes that condemn divorce?
Sheila,
"God taught that a man and a woman become "one". Only in the case of adultery where the union has been broken is divorce permitted. And at no time is domestic violence permitted to a spouse."
The ONLY condition for divorce is ADULTERY. Read what you wrote. Domestic violence is not an excuse for a divorce.
I believe in divorce, especially when I see so much of it in today's society. I just don't believe it should be an option for Christians to have. God hates divorce, just like He hates other immoral activities.
By the way, just because we (christians) comment on a certain topic (ex. this article is about LGBTs) doesn't mean that we accept or embrace other sins such as divorce. I am responding to this article which deals with a specific topic. Why ask another random question about a different topic all together? But to give you the benefit of the doubt...I preach against ALL sin, even the ones I have been guilty of.
So, Observer, you believe women who are battered should do what? Just put up with it until their husbands kill them? Leave the guy but never divorce him?
"Parents are not to exasperate their children and children are to honor their father and mother so that it may go well with them."
And they better not slip up on that honoring lest they get stoned to death.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son,
"So, Observer, you believe women who are battered should do what? Just put up with it until their husbands kill them? Leave the guy but never divorce him?"
Absolutely not. That's just one of MANY reasons why I find the Bible so full of holes and lacking logic.
@Sheila "God taught that a man and a woman become "one". Only in the case of adultery where the union has been broken is divorce permitted. And at no time is domestic violence permitted to a spouse. God stated that a man must love a woman as himself, Parents are not to exasperate their children and children are to honor their father and mother so that it may go well with them"
WELL SAID!!
So when a husband decides to batter his wife, your god will stop him, right, chad? Because beating a spouse 'isn't permitted', right?
And you wonder why we're a nation of laws and not religion.
@Sheila: “at no time is domestic violence permitted to a spouse…. Parents are not to exasperate their children”
I think your blowing smoke and have created your own gospel. Please post the verses that you think supports these claims?
Ephesians 6:4 "Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."
Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Tom: "So when a husband decides to batter his wife, your god will stop him, right, chad? Because beating a spouse 'isn't permitted', right?"
=>free will.. God doesnt stop every evil act. If He did, we wouldnt even exist (and no, the bible doesnt consider procreation evil, it's just everything else we do)
I'm glad Christians are now embracing LGBT, but if that is all we are doing, embracing them and not preaching to them the Bible, that according to God's word they are in sin, we are not truthfully embracing them, much less loving them sincerely.
True, to allow someone to be prisoners of sin even though they are not aware of it, is a sin also. We are watchmen on the wall and we fail to warn someone of what will happen if they don't turn back from sin, we bare the guilt of their blood.
And who amongst you is without sin?
No one is without sin. Why do you ask?
@BoldGeorge
You said, "No one is without sin. Why do you ask?"
Actually, to be more accurate, no christian is without sin. The many contradictory commands and requirements in the bible make sure of that.
I, on the other hand, am free of sin. I am incapable of committing sin.
Sheila says: "we bare the guilt of their blood."
Oh, please.
If God "knew genetics", lady, he'd have kept your genes out of the pool.
Ahh, the love of God just overwhelms from these answers. Apparently, one only sees the love when one is sucking on the crackpipe of delusion.
Simple answer to know that God is real. Look outside. See building. Building is proof that there was a builder. See a painting, the painting is 100% proof that there is a painter. Now consider this out of all things that can be known and you do not know all things can the proof of God be in that unknown. All of creation is proof of the Creator. Think about it but at least be honest and if not just zip the lip…
"Simple answer to know that God is real. Look outside. See building. Building is proof that there was a builder. See a painting, the painting is 100% proof that there is a painter."
Well you got one thing right, they are creations of man – just like gods were created by men who couldn't explain things around them.
John, "All of creation is proof of the Creator."
Your first mistake is calling the universe and existence in general, "creation".
Your second mistake is saying that if all creation needs a creator, who created the creator? If you posit that this "creator" just always "was"... the same can be posited of the universe and existence in general.
Huh, you got God confused with Science. It is "Science" that attempts to explain things that men fail to acknowledge in God.
"God confused with Science"
Can't happen. There is nothing scientific in the Bible. All knowledge of science must be ignored for anyone to believe everything in the Bible.
Sheila,
It sounds like you would have stopped exploring after they decided that earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, lightning and thunder and other disasters were all caused by angry gods... and the good stuff came along when the gods were happy... and to keep those gods happy required quite bizarre activities to be performed by people.
We recognized human artifacts reasonably well because they look different from the products of nature. And then these creationists dingbats claim that nature is one vast artifact of some creator, thereby obliterating the crucial distinction that the whole argument rests on.
One could also say that we recognize human artifacts because we are human. How could we recognize a divine artifact?
@Russ Your god’s many, conflicting and often bizarre rules are not required. There is a single basic principal that you can derive all universal morality from. “Don’t do things to other people you would not want done to you”. Of course this leaves out things like “remember the Sabbath to keep it holy” but that’s not universal
The US is built on freedom of religion.
That means that you are free to believe whatever nonsense you feel like, and worship whatever figment of your imagination to want. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, The Abominable Snowman, Pink Unicorns, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Bob the Magical Blue Sock, Loch Ness Monster or the monster that christians call their god, go right ahead. You are free to worship these creatures in any way you see fit. Stupidity isn't illegal.
But the right to freedom of religion applies equally to everyone.
It is my right to be free from the delusions and rituals that you call your belief and religion. There is nothing in your religion that applies to me. To me, the value of your holy book is entirely caloric. There is no truth to be found in it. Any guidelines or restrictions that you think are contained in it apply only to you.
In other words; if you think that your religion doesn't allow homosexuality, then you better not engage in it.
I really like what you said and how you said it!
People can believe in what they want to believe in whether you agree with it or not.
LinCA, well said. Thank you!
That logic simply does not hold.
Are there things that you believe are wrong no matter what? Think: slavery, pedophilia, etc.
On what basis do you hold that they are wrong? Why is your view any more right than those who believe in such things?
Unless there is an objective standard for morality, you have to be ok with other people doing such heinous things.
If there is an objective moral standard, then... I guess we have to talk about your so-called 'flying spaghetti monster...'
@Kamarasune
You said, "People can believe in what they want to believe in whether you agree with it or not."
Reading for comprehensions isn't your strong suit, is it?
Like I said: "...you are free to believe whatever nonsense you feel like...". That pretty much means that I think that people can believe in what(ever nonsense) they want to believe in. It also means that I probably won't agree with it.
My point is that you, and everyone else, is free to be a total and utter moron, but that you better keep that bullshit out of my life.
It is my right to be free from LGBT agenda's being shoved down my throat all the time. I am sick of your flaunting and cry baby whining "cheeks". Man up, Woman up and quit hiding behind the LGBT from life's realities.
@Sheila
You said, "It is my right to be free from LGBT agenda's being shoved down my throat all the time. I am sick of your flaunting and cry baby whining "cheeks". Man up, Woman up and quit hiding behind the LGBT from life's realities."
You should stop drinking the koolaid. There is no "LGBT Agenda". There is only an attempt to gain equal protection under the law for all citizens. The only ones with an agenda appear to be bigots that are trying to force their religion on everyone else.
As I said above, you have the right to be stupid. If you want to believe you have an imaginary friend, go right ahead. Just don't be surprised if anyone with half a brain will laugh at you.
You may want to consider to woman up and quit hiding behind the idiocies of your religion and open your mind to life's realities.
"Are there things that you believe are wrong no matter what? Think: slavery, pedophilia, etc.
On what basis do you hold that they are wrong? Why is your view any more right than those who believe in such things?"
Those things necessarily harm others. Who does gay marriage harm? Nice Fail
"It is my right to be free from LGBT agenda's being shoved down my throat all the time."
No, it isn't. Just as it isn't the racist's right to be free from the people wanting to shove, say, interracial marriage "down their throat".
And how is anyone shoving anything down your throat? Did someone point a gun to your head to have you read this article. Is someone taping your eyes open and making you watch Modern Family? Get over yourself.
How convenient for Sheila that her religion allows her to hate the right people. I'll betcha if the holy bible said explicitly that same-gender marriages and s3x was good, Sheila would be an unbeliever.
@wimanf
I have hate in my heart? You are even dumber than I thought, and I did not think that was possible. You condemn everyone that does not conform to your fairytale world of right and wrong and call ME the hater. I love all people and consider all people equal. Even you. By the way, there is no Jesus. He may have lived once, but I think after a couple of thousand years being dead, he is pretty much dust. I live in world known as "reality". Turn to the truth and quick having so much hate in your heart. Now if you are really as full of sh-it as you seem, I can lather up a special enema for you and get that colon cleaned out but good. You just let me know.
@ I.E.B.: what do you build your life around? or to put it another way: what do you have 'faith' in?
(That's what I mean by constructing your own building vs. just throwing rocks at someone else's.)
@Russ
Ah....ok, excellent question. I feel every person has to walk a personal path through life. I can't compare my life to yours or any other person alive or dead. It is personal. I am a Temporal (Weak) Agnostic. I am fascinated in Science, Love my family and friends are strive to be the best father and husband I can be. I also understand they I do not have the faculties to undersand the mysteries of the Universe or, if there is one (or two or a billion) God. I am quite sure it be found in any books here on Earth. There are many facts to support that but I won't bore you with details you are not interested in. For me, it is enough to be alive and live in the moment. I don't fear death. If there are typo-s sorry, I am running late but I would like to read your reply when I get back in few.
So if you make someone experience pain and walk funny that is love ? Or if you allow them to make you walk funny, you consider that love ? I feel so sorry that you do not know what real love and caring is.
The Illinois Enema Bandit – Good posts. Your statements and convictions are similar to mine. One day, unfortunately not in our lifetime, man will gradually come to a reckoning that all the religions of the world are a bunch of nonsense invented by man for power and control.
Does anyone know what the heck Shiela is talking about?
@Kebos
We can only hope my friend.
People may change definitions to suit themselves but the author knows His own intent. Now, if the Author finds you guilty of defaming His intent- then why would you be surprised when you are considered a Law breaker and guilty.
"if the Author finds you guilty of defaming His intent-"
Even if the Author is prejudice and ignorant at the time he wrote it? According to your logic then slaves should be guilty based on the Authors intent and we should still have slavery.
See what I mean. Context is everything. Thus fallacy comes to mind.
"Thus fallacy comes to mind."
are you getting a hard on?
The "Author" is God and he is a Living God and created the whole universe. He owns everything, the earth and everything that is in it. He is the potter and we are the clay. He gives us the breath of life and could withdraw that breath at anytime if he chooses to do so. But it is not death or harm he desires for anyone, but to receive his love and blessings. but he cannot love or bless that which is wicked. For God is pure and Holy and there is a gap between his Kingdom and Hell, and not one can cross that gap to go from one to the other. He will separate the wheat from the chaff. For the chaff is blown to the wind every which way, and does not know which way it goes. It is gathered up and thrown into the fire.
"The "Author" is God and he is a Living God and created the whole universe. "
Oh so all the tsuaminis, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes that kill millions of innocent people is the work of your god. Not on that – your god created gay people. Your god is one sick dude.
Now if only the author knew how to write effectively maybe he could have actually made His intent clear to the rest of us. And why in the world does the writer care if the shirt I'm wearing isn't 100% cotton?
To you stupid christians: your kind of people are always IMPLYING that you KNOW God. You are idiots!
Ask yourself: what do I really f-u-c-k-i-n-g know about God?
That is your first question.
Here are a few more: does God follow me to the bathroom? does God care if I chip a nail? Put on makeup? Floss my teeth?
If God follows you to the bathroom, that makes God a pervert. If you are offended about God peeking at your privates – ask yourself WHY ? How COULD you be offended? God has seen your c-o-c-k or s-n-a-t-c-h since TIME ENTERNAL! So get over yourself about knowing God. You know f-u-c-k all. Simple.
You do-uc-he bags just want to pretend you are on an intimate relationship with your imaginary friend. Get over it. As a matter of fact – go f-u-c-k-i-n-g OFF yourself TODAY and be done with it.
Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant Words Are Like An Honeycomb SWEETNESS to The Soul And Health To The Bones. Peace
ANSWER: We know the word of God and the Holy Spirit comes to live in us to guide us to teach us. We are sinners too but God requires all of us to put off our sins so that we may receive life eternal and not be condemned to both the death of the body and the death of the soul. God just wants to love you and protect you as a hen does her baby chicks as they snuggle up under her wings. Why don't you want to be loved ? That is why Jesus came, to share that love, to reconcile us to God so we can be loved in the same wonderful way God loved him from before the beginning of the world. The flesh is nothing. It goes to the grave and is eaten by worms and rots. It is the soul that counts.
A hen doesn't "love" her chicks, dear. She instinctively protects them. When one gets eaten by a fox, the hen doesn't cry or mourn. Hens have brains that are miniscule. They don't have emotions as we think of them.
Really, if you're gonna use an analogy, find something better.
I wonder, Sheila, if your god demanded that you never have children or a spouse, would you oblige? Would you be satisfied with having life after death and giving up a family and children in trade for that, when you have no proof it exists at all?
Why should gay people do that?
You wouldn't.
Answer sounds like there is an Amalekite inside you waiting to get out.
fred, You must strike @Answer and kill her... and all of her kind, including the infants and the ox and sheep, camel and donkey.
"Editor’s note: Ross Murray is director of religion, faith and values at GLAAD, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation".......................That says it all.............!
Yep. It says that he knows FAR FAR more about gays than you do.
@Observer – and probably religion, faith and values, too.
Only LGB but NEVER on T!
This story is nothing but politically correct horse manure.
Like I said.......................Nothing but a joke..................by and large, only pro-deviate opinions are posted.
Brent,
"by and large, only pro-deviate opinions are posted."
Wrong. There have been many comments posted by hypocritical Christian h0mophobes.
I am a Christian. I have a belief in the way to live a life. If you have different beliefs, Gods, or lifestyles, then I will love you as a brother and pray for you.
So, according to your belief and philosophy, Paul from the bible should have left the Corinthians alone, not said anything about their immorality and just prayed for them?
BoldGeorge,
Paul said that NO ONE should get married, but to go ahead if they were too weak to control their lust.
Funny, I don't see Christians discussing that much when PICKING AND CHOOSING Paul's comments. Same for his comments on slavery and the inferiority of women. It's all hypocrisy.
"Paul from the bible should have left the Corinthians alone"
Paul was condemning the practice of using sex to worship a pagan god, now go find those cults if they still exist and condemn them. 😉
Boldgeorge – I did use the term belief of which you turned into philosophy. I did not say that I would not share the word of the Lord with people whose beliefs are different, I made a 2-sentence statement to show that as a Christian I can love and pray for anyone – even those who's ideals are different from mine. I would hope that those I can have a genuine conversation with will turn to God, but it is not for me to judge.
Observer: You should quote the bible more accurately.
1 Corinthians
7:1,2 - "...it is good for a man not to touch a woman. (2) But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband."
7:8,9 - "But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. (9) But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
See how VERY different this is compared to your distortion??? And by the way, verse 8 is a mere suggestion by Paul because as you can read the words [even as I], he was implying that it is easier to serve the Lord as a single person than if you had the responsibilities of a married person caring for a family.
You have to read anything in the Bible in its CONTEXT.
There is no god to listen to your prayers. Try living life instead.
CNN.....................Your opinion page has become a joke.....................
Well that's just, like, your opinion man.
Brent...........................this is not how ellipses are meant to be used.........................