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 Some Christian denominations have officially welcomed gays and lesbians in recent years.
October 25th, 2011
12:09 PM ET
My Take: Why Christians are embracing their LGBT neighborsEditor’s note: Ross Murray is director of religion, faith and values at GLAAD, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. By Ross Murray, Special to CNN America is embracing its lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens. Don’t believe me? Just look at the progress being made in faith communities. The Christian church was once considered the final holdout for those who oppose equality for LGBT people. Staunch believers could gather in worship with people who thought just like them to hear sermons affirming the anti-LGBT beliefs they held in common. For those of us who identify as LGBT, church was a place of fear and secrets. We had to figure out how to hide ourselves or how to find a more welcoming community. But that is changing. Although there is still a variety of scriptural interpretations, an increasing number of Christians are reading scripture and understanding that God’s design for the world includes LGBT people. It follows, good Christians believe, that if God made them, then I am called to love and support them. Whole Christian denominations have accepted and embraced the reality of LGBT believers within their ranks and in their leadership. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ and Unitarians have formally accepted LGBT people within their denominations. Even within denominations and faith groups whose policies don’t fully welcome LGBT people, there are growing numbers of people who have learned to love and accept their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters. The Public Religion Research Institute found this year that as many as 71% of Catholics in America support lesbian and gay people, even up to the point of civil marriage, despite the Roman Catholic hierarchy telling them otherwise. Of course, there still are Christian groups who work actively against equal protections for LGBT people and their families. Indeed, as more Americans get to know and love their LGBT neighbors, the messages and vocal misinformation of anti-gay activists become even more shrill. And yet more and more Christians are now living out the message of 1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear.” How did this happen? More Christians now know someone who is LGBT. They probably even know someone from their church. There are countless faithful Christians who identify as LGBT. These are folks who have found their faith in God to be stronger than the opposition of vocal anti-gay activists. These LGBT Christians have shared their lives and their stories that build up love and break down fear, leading to tangible progress, especially with young people. According to the Public Religion Research Institute, there is at least a 20-point gap between those ages 18 to 29 and those ages 65 and older on every public policy measure in the survey concerning equality for gay and lesbian people, with younger Americans gravitating toward equality. Even Christian-identified young people increasingly support protections for lesbian and gay people, the same survey found. Those who oppose equality can call it what they like, but the reality is that we are living in a society that has learned how to value LGBT people as they would others. That attitude doesn’t rely on fear or lies, but on caring relationships and trust. It lives out the apostle Paul’s wish for the Corinthians that someday we will know fully, even as we are fully known. It is a biblically informed reality that is helping to make the world a better place. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Ross Murray. soundoff (2,403 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Next »
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A question that progressive Christians are asking more and more – If we believe that verses that condemn women to 2nd-class status, support slavery, oppressing religious minorities and so on 'must be taken in to context' then how is it fair that six verses condemning Gays (with Leviticus 20:13 commanding they be put to death!) must be taken literally – especially since, on the issue of Lesbianism the Bible is silent?'
Naturally the conservative/fundie crowd never ask that question – they just puff up with self-righteous outrage when these verses are pointed out, and then pretend the question was never asked.
And? You are just criticizing other Christians? What is your point?
The important term here is "true christians" not the "self loathing evangeliical right wing bigot christians' who have hijacked the GOP
@lagunalad
You have my attention....please go on.....what is a TRUE Christian?
@enema- from what I can see in your disgusting posts, low lfe like you are far from understanding what a true christian is.
1. Please explain what is disgusting about my posts.
2. YOU said there are TRUE Christians, so please explain what that means.
@lagunalad
Stilll waiting. Typical Christian co-ckroach. You all always make my point for me. It is so easy.
@Enema: a 'true Christian' is essentially the same idea as the 'one true fan' of any fandom ever. Whatever they decide is true, is true. And anyone else is going to hell.
This topic is always Interesting. I lean to the side that a lot don't, which is have a good relationship with those of the LGBT community, but to not agree with a church that accepts them into the clergy or be a pastor or so on and so forth. I know that love needs to be ever present in my faith in God so I love them but where I stand I need to challenge this position. I'm not perfect but day by day I'm being renewed in God and living by him.
ever take a shot in the mouth? might just change your point of view..... LOL
@Friedman
You have sh-it for brains. Not sure if one of my enemas can help that but I am working on it. I am honestly feeling ill reading you and your fuk head brothers and sisters posts. You are evil incarnate.
do you really think you can teach people empathy, because from my life experience, it seems like they either have it or they don't
I don't care what any of you say cuz being that way is a choice. I don't think any of you know the bible and if you are accepting of this abomination then you are just as guilty and on top of it that's gross.
so you think its a choice that you either get wet or hard when looking at a boy or a girl when in a very erotic poistion??
The APA, composed of tens of thousands of professionals, says you don't know what you are talking about. What are your credentials with education in psychiatry and experience as a professional that enables you to claim you know more than they do?
Answer please.
@sh-it for brains
Little Tommy wants to please mommy an daddy and date girls. But little Tommy's penis does not respond to girls. He should go to hell I guess. Thanks God.
you have the right to remain silent. Everything you have said or gonna say, will be used as laughing tickling stocks to, for, and by humanity.
It's a choice? So you're Gay, so you'd know, right? Nah, you don't know – you are just projecting your own self-righteousness and saying that you know more about being Gay than Gay people do.
@Ozymandias71
Are you gay? do you know anyone who is gay? Are you friends with anyone that is gay? Just wundering cuz I don't think you are are gonna win this argument bigot.
Enema – I *am* Gay, and *I* know that when a 'Christian' starts ranting and raving about Gay = Choice, they're flat-out wrong.
Religion has and is and will forever be upon socialism's shoulders and no matter what 'anti-theists' think or even do, our majority of races will ever believe upon a G-D. While 'Anti-theists' will ever be the sandpaper upon which monotheism will ever sand down their 'fingerlings' with.
Some other religion will come along in the future and replace yours. I promise.
Translate that into some Earth language please.
@ O.S. Bird,,,
What seems to be your problem OSB? Still in grade school? Or haven't made it out of kindergarten?
Why am I not suprised that you retort with taunts like a child? If you want to get your ideas across, first put then in a form the average human can understand. Oh, by the way: Nyah-nyah-nyah!
O.S. Bird wrote on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 at 10:35 pm, stating, "Translate that into some Earth language please."
god wrote on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 at 10:49 pm, stating, "@ O.S. Bird,,,What seems to be your problem OSB? Still in grade school? Or haven't made it out of kindergarten?"
O.S. Bird wrote on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 at 10:55 pm, stating, "Why am I not suprised that you retort with taunts like a child? If you want to get your ideas across, first put then in a form the average human can understand. Oh, by the way: Nyah-nyah-nyah!"
Ya must be an orphan child or a brow-beaten kid,,,Jus not too sure which though! Could be you viewed too many 3 Stooges shows! Curly would be enamored while Mo would tell you to blow and Larry would get his hair all ruffled up!
OK, you got me. How can I respond to the calm and mature logic you so masterfully presented to me, and yes, the world.
I'm with OS Bird here. The original post was little more than nonsense.
Why, thank you Tallulah13. I was beginning to wonder if *I* was the one gone insane
SO HAVE THE HATERS STOPPED YET... damn loser christians will never learn.... the trial of the jewish faith if placed on the heads of the christians would fail faster then me taking a drug test!
Here is the reality of religion in general and specifically Christians today. ANY logic sends them running like co-ckroaches to their churches and friends and neighbors. As long as the conversation is about praying and heaven, all is well. They stay with their own kind because they are unable to break free from the shackles and brainwashing that bind them to the Bible and their church. Do churches have outreach programs that do good in the community and abroad? Yes. Do those programs outweigh the harm religion does to the world? No. Any secular organization can and does do just as much as churches to help the needy. And without the Evangelism.
The Bible is nonsense. It was not written for us, it was written for the nitwits 1000 to 2000 years ago who were completely uneducated and would believe anything they were told if it would put a bagel on their table. Jesus was a charlatan (if he even existed) and cult leader.
Religion’s time has come and gone, and it has certainly done enough damage at this point.
Humans, it is time to move FORWARD. Now, line up for your enemas.
Finally, true story: I asked a close relative if they thought Muslims celebrated Easter. Her reply? Do they believe in God? And again I have to teach Christians their own religion.
"Religion’s time has come and gone, and it has certainly done enough damage at this point."
And you are basing this on what? Your limited opinion?
"It was not written for us, it was written for the nitwits 1000 to 2000 years ago who were completely uneducated and would believe anything they were told if it would put a bagel on their table."
Seems like a rather cloaked anti-semetic jab there.
@Lycidas
Define, "My Limited Opinion" and then I will answer your question.
@Lycidas
Explain why you think that statement is anti-semetic and I will respond.
@Lycidas
Typical. Just like the c-ockroach you are. Run and hide.
Enema Bandit, you have no idea what you are talking about. Religion is the quite natural attempt on the part of humans to understand cosmic truth and deal with it in some organized way. Christianity is the result of many visions and other communications which God gave to various people, along with the visit to Earth of the Christ, who is called Jesus. It takes time to digest and understand spiritual truth, but I tell you the truth when I say this: the God that Christians refer to is real, is alive, and is the beginning and end of all things.
Enema, your post is pretty dumb and off the mark. Did you even READ the article? Your claim that they "stay with their own kind" is complete opposite of what the article is saying. I think you are full of sh**.
@Erik and Joseph
Erik, please provide proof or shut the fuk up.
Joseph, I got off topic a bit sorry. Just trying to make my point.
You ask for proof while the proof is all around you. You are choosing not to see it. Ask God to help you. Meanwhile, back to topic, which is that the gay rights movement is based on lies, and is the opposite of what God wants. People who supports gay rights, including those who call themselves Christians, are working against the Supreme Being, who is the beginning and end of all things.
Erik,
"the gay rights movement is based on lies'
What lies? If you disagree with the professionals at APA, please give us your educational background and professional experience to show you know what you are talking about.
@Erik
So you know what God wants? He made people Gay, but it was a mistake so now he want s to take it back? You are so unbelievalby stupid I can't even have a conversation with you.
"America is embracing its lesbian, gay, bis-ex-ual and trans-gen-der citizens. Don’t believe me? Just look at the progress being made in faith co-mmunities"
And that's progress?
It's looking more like apostate, washed out christianity... And they brag about it?
It's progress just like getting away from slavery, discrimination against women, etc. as supported by the Bible. Get used to it. Education is wiping out bigotry and ignorance.
Observer and I don't always agree but Observer is right on here.
Education is helpful. But only God can change a human heart. Education won't . Knowledge puffes up, and because of our human nature, often bars person from deeper understanding of issues of life. But power of God changes persons heart, if they allow Him.
@NHTK
Where is this God you speak of? I want to see it, touch it, talk to it. What is the deal?
"It's looking more like apostate, washed out christianity... And they brag about it?" Yeah, they probably said the same thing when slavery was abolished (Emancipation? Totally un-scriptural!) and when the 19th Amendment was passed, giving women the right to vote. On and on.
You know your god loves you when he hates the same people you do
@yaken
You know your god loves you when he hates the same people you do
Damn, son. Thread over.
"But power of God changes persons heart, if they allow Him."
Ummmm the APA, AMA and the World Health Organization have shown that trying to change a homosexual is dangerous and detrimental to that person. It can't be done. All those therapies claiming they can change the person have been found to be bogus reports.
If you look at social trends, this battle is over. LBGTs – 1: Christians – 0. I enjoyed watching it because it had the unintended fringe benefit of opening many young minds and causing them to question the whole silly idea of Christianity.
I worry that inst.itutions like the Catholic Church will try to recast the issue, like they always do, and pretend they were welcoming of gays all along, but then I think of how many decades or centuries that insti.tution takes to adapt and I rest comfortable that it will be irrelevant within 100 years.
All I can say is, thank you conservative Christians, you are the best thing that has ever happened to atheism.
And that's why Christians outnumber atheists by millions.
Christianity is in decline worldwide and non-religion is the fastest growing group.
Just like flat Earthers once outnumbered thse who believed in a round planet, it is all a matter of time. The internet is exposing young people to science, freethought and atheism like never before. The gods, ghosts and goblins are in full retreat. They have few places left to hide. The uncritical mind of the believer is quite possibly their last safe haven.
Considering 2000 years of history & 2 billion adherents, it seems pretty short-sighted & historically unaware to think that Christianity will be irrelevant in 100 years.
Are we really so full of ourselves that we think our culture is some grand achievement that folks in 100 years won't look back & mock your current convictions? Consider how many iterations of that Christianity has not only survived but thrived through. Isn't it arrogant & historically naive to think you're the exception? ...that somehow your views transcend all who've gone before?
Christianity will eventually join the great big graveyard of past religions/gods no one believes in anymore. That's how we know its days are numbered.
Actually pal, you can argue all you want, but my experience as an atheist ended abruptly when I realised that God is for real, and ever since then I've never had a shadow of doubt. You may spout off to sound intelligent, but with everything that's going on in the world right now, I have nothing to fear – not even people like you or your opinions. Basically you haven't got a clue, and like the Bible says 'A fool says in their heart there is no God'. Kind of says it all, doesn't it?
You atheists make me laugh. Any kind of news feature that has anything to do with Christianity and you read it, then comment on it. Have you got nothing better to do with your life? Seems to me that you're in denial. Man, it'd be funny if I didn't know where you were headed.
Believer,
Every time there is a story about gays, hypocritical Christian h0mophobes crawl out of the woodwork quoting the Bible.
"Have you got nothing better to do with your life? Seems to me that you're in denial".
Believer – The whole "believe or burn"theory of Christianity is actually one of its sillier superst-itions. Think it through. You don’t have to kill, you don’t have to steal, you don’t even have to litter. All you have to do is refuse to believe in the Christian god and he will inflict a punishment on you an infinite times worse than the death penalty….and he loves you.
Odd, given that he was the one who withheld all evidence of his existence in the first place. That's the trouble with using the same being as both the carrot and the stick. you end up full of contradictions.
People who need imaginary friends make me laugh.
@Russ: “Considering 2000 years of history & 2 billion adherents, it seems pretty short-sighted & historically unaware to think that Christianity will be irrelevant in 100 years.”
Christianity has been losing power and shriveling up ever since the Protestants split from Catholicism. This is just another phase it’s going through on its slow march into oblivion
Russ,
Think how far we've come in the last 100 years. Do you really think that in 50,000 years, some itinerant, illiterate wandering preacher guy will still be relevant to the man-machines that will exist then ? The question is not "will religion be dead in 100 years?", but in 25,000 years, will ANY far away, long gone, ancient religion still be relevant. Nope, it is preposterous.
@ No, I'm the best:
25,000 years from now? That sounds to me like faith. Do you at least recognize you are doing the same thing that you so vehemently deny Christians should do?
As Nietzsche himself put it: "it is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests." (Nietzsche's "The Gay Science")
History and the giant graveyard of past religions/gods is on our side.
@Sheila
Why don't you ever answer any of my questions? I will hazard a guess. You don't know. You are just spewing nonsence with no scientific evidence to back it up. The Bible is NOT a history book. Sorry.
Your questions are not new. They have been answered repeatedly for 2000 years by thoughtful Christians. Lots of places address them. If you're willing to do more than just toss out questions... here's a great website, for example:
http://www.questiongod.info/index.php
The answers found here are far more accurate.
http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/index.html
"thoughtful Christians"
lol
@ apostate:
it's easier to mock than to engage. aren't you rightly enraged when Christians say the same about you?
No. Mocking is definitely the way to go. Christianity will continue its decline, my effort is not required.
@ apostate:
pretty ethnocentric to claim Christianity is in decline... China, India, Africa... the numbers are booming.
Hardly booming in Asia. Asia is increasingly non-theist only keeping around ancient folk mythology for tradition.
@russ and whoever
Duh, of course my questions are not new (you are a genious!), but when I meet a "thoughtful" Christian I am quite sure I will have a heart attack and die. That will definately not happen tonight.
Here is the reality of religion in general and specifically Christians today. ANY logic sends them running like co-ckroaches to their churches and friends and neighbors. As long as the conversation is about praying and heaven, all is well. They stay with their own kind because they are unable to break free from the shackles and brainwashing that bind them to the Bible and their church. Do churches have outreach programs that do good in the community and abroad? Yes. Do those programs outweigh the harm religion does to the world? No. Any secular organization can and does do just as much as churches to help the needy. And without the Evangelism.
The Bible is nonsense. It was not written for us, it was written for the nitwits 1000 to 2000 years ago who were completely uneducated and would believe anything they were told if it would put a bagel on their table. Jesus was a charlatan (if he even existed) and cult leader.
Religion’s time has come and gone, and it has certainly done enough damage at this point.
Humans, it is time to move FORWARD. Now, line up for your enemas.
Finally, true story: I asked a close relative if they thought Muslims celebrated Easter. Her reply? Do they believe in God? And again I have to teach Christians their own religion.
Amen and all that. And please send me your Bibles. I need TP for my Bung hole!
@apostate:
here's a BBC article that says otherwise:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749
That article has none of the huge claims you have made here. More than Europe isn't saying much lol.
@ E.B.: do you understand that many made the exact same arguments you made at the close of the 19th c & again at the close of the 20th c. Both times, they were proven wrong.
end of 19th c: many intellectual atheists claimed religion was doomed. Man had evolved past it. Man was inherently good. Then WW1 & WW2 hit. The reality of evil in the heart of man. Suddenly, hope in humanity had a rude awakening. same thing last century, in the US most highlighted by 9/11.
Again, not trying to be rude, but your questions have been posed before & answered before. I personally don't have all the answers, but it doesn't take much research to at least come across the "thoughtful Christians" you so readily mock. and it's pretty cheap to think you can continually dismiss people with bathroom humor on such important topics.
There are plenty of legitimate arguments that demolish Christianity as any kind of truth.
@ apostate:
that's a pretty huge claim... per your comments above.
And again....all you have to do is look at the great many religions and gods that humanity once held as some kind of truth that no one believes in anymore.
Not a huge claim at all. Fallibility and higher criticism of the Bible and severe lack of evidence for the claims of the legends contained within.
@ apostate:
that's like saying "since 2+2 doesn't = 5, & some people used to say it did, then 2+2=4 is equally wrong."
it doesn't follow.
What does your incoherent rambling response have to do with anything? It's simple. You have an ancient myth book filled with ridiculous nonsense and you have no evidence for any god.
@ apostate: my mathematical response was to your prior comment (that false religions that have failed before are evidence the current ones are false). it's a syllogism that doesn't follow.
In regard to idea that Christianity is a myth: you aren't taking into account the origins. Why did Christianity even get off the ground? Do you really think people were so much more gullible back then? They didn't just believe things any more than you do now.
When Paul says (in 1 Cor.15) that more than 500 people saw the risen Jesus at once, he's speaking only 30 years after Jesus' death. If people didn't believe, they could check it out. Some of those 500 people would still have been alive. People traveled. They'd check the claims. Christianity doesn't even get started if people didn't corroborate.
That's exactly what Luke is saying in Lk.1:1-5. "These aren't myths. I checked. These are eyewitness accounts." You can call them patently lies or false, but you can't call them myths. Myths don't include detail like this. Nothing fictional would for another 1700 years. So either the disciples were literary geniuses, or they are reporting what they saw. And that is why Christianity took off. It happened. People saw it.
The research is there. Check Richard Bauckham's new book: "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses."
It follows just fine and Christianity will end up the same. Illiterate poor people are gullible yes. Imperial legislation is why Christianity became popular by law. Edict of Thessalonica = only lawful religion. There are no eyewitness accounts. The Gospel authors are unknown and we have no original copies. They are not written by a Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. They were written some forty years after the events. Only 13 of Paul's Epistles are written by a Paul, the rest are forgeries. Paul never actually met a Jesus, he had a vision.
"When Paul says (in 1 Cor.15) that more than 500 people saw the risen Jesus at once"
This is a dream he had not an actual event and not one of those 500 wrote anything about it. Hello!??!
@ apostate: the research shows otherwise.
For example, John 5 talks about the pool of Bethesda w/ 5 columns. For centuries folks said it didn't exist. Higher critical scholars claimed it was evidence that the author of John didn't know Jerusalem. Archeologists discovered it in the 19th c. It had been destroyed in AD 70. Even if you deny John was written by John, it must have been written by someone who knew Jerusalem before AD 70. More evidence that such "higher critical" claims are mistaken.
Again, Richard Bauckham's book is one of many that detail these things. Check it out.
@ apostate: "this is a dream he had."
at least have the integrity to engage the material honestly.
he's in the middle of detailing his personal account of how he has the knowledge he has. there's nothing about a dream.
"none of the 500 wrote about it." That's exactly what the New Testament is: largely firsthand accounts & what they did after Jesus changed their lives.
It does not say otherwise. The consensus of Biblical scholarship sides with me. Archeology does not align with the Bible stories claims. It may occasionally state verifiable historical places, but that is not evidence of Bible claims about deities and miracles. It would be the equivalent of saying Roman ruins is proof that their pantheon of gods is real. It doesn't work that way. The core stories are not found at all like the Exodus.
@ apostate: "the consensus of Biblical scholarship agrees with you"? I'm not a member of the American Academy of Religion, but I have a postgraduate degree in the field. That simply is not the case. People on all sides of the debate can see that.
What personal account? Paul was not there. There isn't a single first hand account in all of the New Testament. There isn't a single account from the alleged 500 witnesses. There is also not any account outside the Bible's fairytale of the zombies that walked around Jerusalem "appearing to many" in Matthew 27.
@ apostate: it amazes me that you're so willing to be skeptical of the Biblical accounts, but not of your own skepticism.
Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are all either firsthand or second-hand (directly connected to an Apostle) accounts.
Think about it this way: if these Jewish guys (who didn't believe God could become a man) were selling a hoax, why would they all die for a hoax/lie?
Christianity would not have gotten off the ground if it was a myth. It only starts if it was an event. News. Good News. That's why we call it that.
Early Jewish Christians did not believe Jesus was a god, that is a later claim.
David Koresh must have been a true messiah then, because people died for him. Muslim suicide bombers must be proof of Allah as the one true god. People dying for something is not proof of anything.
"Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are all either firsthand or second-hand (directly connected to an Apostle) accounts."
No, they aren't. You don't know who wrote them. You have no original copies. Furthermore, Joseph Smith allegedly had first hand accounts. Mohammed allegedly had first hand accounts. UFO abductees and bigfoot sightings allegedly have first hand accounts. This is not evidence of anything.
@ apostate: even if you discount the Gospels, everyone agrees Paul wrote Philippians. Php.2:6-10 clearly states Jesus is God. Even the latest dates for that letter are AD 62. That's within 30 years of Jesus' death.
I wasn't claiming that dying for something makes it true. I was saying that people don't knowingly die for a hoax. Your premise was that this stuff was made up. The authors died for these claims.
Paul making a claim is not evidence of anything, he could beleive whatever, he didn't have any evidence. He witnessed nothing. Your claim is that people won't die for their beliefs, people die for all sorts of cults and nonsensical beliefs. I demonstrated your claim as completely false.
@ apostate: mohammed/joseph smith/etc...
that's not comparing apples and oranges. the distinctive of orthodox Christianity is that Jesus didn't come to tell us a set of rules to follow. He didn't point to the rules, he pointed to himself. he died in our place.
every other major religious founder gives a set of ethics to live by. Jesus gave himself because he knew we couldn't keep the rules & we deserved to die. other religions teach: good people go to heaven. only Christianity teaches that bad people like me get in b/c of what Jesus did for us.
no other major religion's founder claimed to BE God. David Koresh is a perfect example. It's not like Branch Davidians have been multiplying since his death. Again, just like I said before, Christianity wouldn't have gotten off the ground (just like Branch Davidians) if it didn't happen.
@ apostate: no, my argument was that people don't knowingly die for a hoax. the AUTHORS of these eyewitness accounts wouldn't die for it if they KNEW they made it up. That's different than your example.
Have you read Acts 9? Do you know who Paul was? Again, evidence of an historical figure who doesn't make sense unless something happened to him. He murdered Christians... and then suddenly he becomes one?
The Philippians 2 point was to prove you were wrong to claim "no early Christians believed Jesus was God." That was evidence of Christian belief that Jesus was God w/in 30 years of Jesus death.
Russ H,
Christianity doesn't care a hoot about how good of a person you are if you don't believe in something that can't be proved. You could be kind, generous, thoughtful, helpful, sacrificing, etc. and it makes NO DIFFERENCE if you don't believe.
Jesus never claims to be god, he says he has a god. If Jesus has a god who he claims is the only true god (John 17:3), then Jesus can't be god. The Trinity took four centuries to complete. Matthew 19:17 says to obey the law to enter life. Paul contradicts Jesus and is a general d-bag. The rest of your response is special pleading for Christianity as some kind of truth above other cults and it fails. You still have no evidence of god so everything else is just icing anyway.
@ Observer: that is insightful, but do you understand why?
Imagine a teenager who follows all mom & dad's rules, is generous w/ his stuff, etc., but only does it to keep Mom & Dad off his back. There's no real relationship. The only reason I do good in that situation is actually for evil purposes – to avoid them.
As Flannery O'Connor put it in Wiseblood: "there was a deep, black, wordless conviction in him that the way to avoid Jesus was to avoid sinning."
I think that's Jesus point exactly in Luke 15 when he excoriates the Pharisees as "elder brothers." They do all God's rules but secretly hate him & just want his 'goodies.'
@ apostate: you're making several different arguments here that each require longer discussions. there are answers if you're willing to hear them.
again, i recommend this website: http://www.questiongod.info/
"the AUTHORS of these eyewitness accounts wouldn't die for it if they KNEW they made it up"
No one made that claim, nice strawman. People believing someone is a messiah, writing about it, encouraging others to believe it, and even dying for it is NOT evidence of the beliefs. Period.
Those apologetics are garbage and they do not at all address the blatant inconsistencies of the Bible and your beliefs. Feel free to continue believing in nonsense though.
@ apostate: then you are missing the historical context. Jews would never believe a man could be God. It's a unique facet of their particular brand of monotheism. But all the disciples were Jews.
They all died for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead. It's all they talked about. People couldn't shut them up about it.
The origins of Christianity are Jewish. The dates are so close to Jesus' lifetime that they can't be myths (which always arise 100s of years later). The people who wrote them died for it.
There is no viable explanation for the largest religion on our planet if it didn't happen. It's inexplicable otherwise.
Something being popular is not evidence of it being true. Ad Populum is a logical fallacy. Jesus never claimed to be god and the original Jewish Christians did not believe he was a god. That came later. you really know very little about the origins of Christianity. The Trinity was completed four centuries later. You still do not have one single valid argument for your religion being true.
@ apostate: "those apologetics are nonsense..." your timestamp makes it clear you spent precisely one minute on it.
You've made your decision. But there is scholarship there if you want to pursue it. Days worth of listening to someone Newsweek called "a CS Lewis for the 21st century."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/02/09/the-smart-shepherd.html
If Jesus existed he was never a Christian, he practiced Judaism. Christianity comes from Rome.
"They all died for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead."
That is not proof of anything. Again.....Muslims die for Allah. Branch Davidians died for David Koresh. That is not evidence that what they believe being true. You are special pleading your religion.
That's all I need to spend because I can see the same tired old apologetics reused over and over again. You have not made one single valid argument for why your religion is true, not one.
CS Lewis was an idiot. Worst apologist.
@ apostate: Jesus claims to be God repeatedly. For example, John 8:35: "before Abraham was, I Am." He's not just claiming preexistence, he's claiming the very name of the Jewish God (YHWH = "I Am").
The Trinity is there on the pages of Scripture if you're willing to read it (Jn.10:30; Mt.28:19-20; Acts 16:6-7; but esp.Jn.14-17 as a whole). It wasn't officially stated until after Christian persecution stopped in AD 312.
But even that is evidence to the contrary of what you're claiming. Christianity had already taken over the Roman cities. Constantine didn't make Rome Christian, he conceded what was already there. Over half the population of the urban centers had become Christian.
And it was the same doctrine they had been teaching since the beginning (Gal.1:6; Php.2:6-10), which meant they worshipped Jesus... that's why they were called Christians in the first place (Acts 11).
Jesus never once claims to be god. He states quite clearly he can do nothing without god and he cries out to this god on the cross. Was he talking to himself? There are no straight forward passages for a Trinity. Christianity was nowhere near that large by the time of Constantine, your information is way off. It took three creeds and four centuries for the Trinity to be completed. not to mention there were many Christianities all believing different doctrines until Theodosius. Again, you are ignorant of the facts.
@ apostate: I just gave you one reference among many where Jesus claims to be God.
As for the Trinity: you just proved my point. He is talking to his Father. There's the Trinity in Scripture.
As for my information, check any history of Christianity/religion book. Even the most secular should tell you otherwise. But here's a great one: Rodney Stark, "the Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal, Jesus Movement Became the Dominant Religious Force in the Western World in a Few Centuries."
Russ,
You are deluded. Christianity was invented by Saul of Tarsus, who vehemently fought with James, (the leader of the Jerusalem Nazarenes). Yeshua bar Josef NEVER said he was god, and the Jerusalem camp NEVER dud either. They died because the sect was a political threat to the Romans.
@ No I'm the best:
so you are claiming that 2000 years after the fact, despite the primary resources we have saying directly the contrary of what you're claiming, that you have more insight into this matter than the historical sources?
do you have similar insights on Plato & Homer?
"Why Christians are embracing their LGBT neighbors..."
When Jesus embraces sinners like us, the result is the cross.
That does not mean what we are fine as we are. It certainly means the opposite.
This article seems to assume embracing only happens when Christians ignore that Jesus' love included a strong statement that he plans to change what we desire.
@Russ
They are fine E-XACTLY as they are. I am fine too. I hope you are fine. Why don't you pull your nose out or your Bible and see the world for what it is. DIVERSE. Take you Christian "values" and shove them up your ar-se. (then call me, I can arrange a nice little enema that will help clean out your SH-IT for brains. God Bless
I understand you disagree with Christianity. Do you at least understand why the central picture of our faith (God's heart shown to us on the cross) says something different than what you think?
We are worse off than we want to admit (he had to die; I am not 'fine' as I am),
But we are much more loved than we ever dared to hope (he was willing to die in my place).
@Russ
No, I just think you are stupid.
Another question for the Christian fundies.. and Sheila..
If god made only Adam and Eve, and god explicitly disapproves/disallows relationships among close relatives(according to the bible, ofcourse), How did mankind come into being??
What were Adam and Eve been up to in that forest (along with munching on apples)..
Allegedly, angels were doing the deed with adam and eve. I'm sure they all crossed the old hot incest path a time or two.
The law against close relation marriage was not instated until the time of Moses.
If you want a logical explanation, you ahve to start with the assumption that God made all things 'very good' and work your way from there. Nearly perfect genes, slightly distorted due to sin, left little room for the common (in these days) chance that close relation breeding would develope drastic mutations in the off spring. Combined with the fact that mutation would have taken a very long time in order to build up to that point (probably was helped after flood when the humans were bottlenecked genetically speaking).
@wait
I think we have established that God is a pedo-phile and enjoyed watching two 16 year old kids have in-cest in the Garden of Eden. What we don't know is if God is que-er or straight. I really think we need to research this more. My guess....bi-curious. I am sure it is in Bible somewhere as that is such a reliable book.
Jon, I have to ask... how is it that god created mankind when the Sumerians already had an advanced civilization in place when the creation happened?
@Jon,
But the world is just about 6000 yrs according to the bible, isn't it? and 2000 yrs ago, we know the people were the same as we are today.. couple of thousand yrs before that Moses was around. So your argument about genetic mutations must have happened in around 1000-2000 yrs. That we know for sure is way too small period for genes to mutate from being perfect.
Besides, doesn't the god and bible completely disagrees with the whole concept of genetics and evolution? That is why we teach "intelligent design" in schools these days..
Seems like there are a lot of ppl hellbent on the notion that all Christians are literalists.
Umm.. you mean, you can pick and choose what you want to believe out of God's own words?
Newsflash, they all pick and choose. Literalists are selective literalists.
@wait- to think it is God's own words would make one a literalist. But there is nothing that should make one think that. There is nothing in the books of the Bible that says God dictated the writing of it. It was inspired by God..but not written by him.
Bibles anyone? I have a lot of work to do and need that scratch.
We are all sinners, and for those who choose, saved by the grace of God. We know what the Bible teaches, not all who say "Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God, so - let God be the judge. It is our duty to follow Him, not judge.
hey bo, where ya been? anyway, the point of my post, "its are duty to follow god" really... where do you get that from?
I'm not a sinner. There's no such thing as sin.
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 8
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..." Romans 3:23
You deceive yourself by believing in the bible.
Why? What deception is there?
Texas Chainsaw and others. No Christian wants to "kill LGBT's" and either does God. God wants you to receive his love and blessings, but you have to put off your rebellion and wicked ways, just like the heteros have to put off their rebellion and wicked ways. And then through the reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ his son, who came to save us not to condemn us we can be saved. But there will be a time when Christ returns to judge, when we have had plenty of time to turn from our sins and walk rightly. God does not take pleasure in the death or harm of anyone, but we by our sinful rebellion incur his wrath, as at some time he has to draw a line. He is Holy and he has tolerated the wickedness of man far too long. He is going to end wickedness and suffering and heal those who have been harmed and hurt. He will bring a peace unlike any peace very known. And no one will fear again.
@Sheila
Now you know what God wants or doesn't want? Wow!
It is my right to be free from religious nut's agenda's being shoved down my throat all the time. I am sick of your flaunting and cry baby whining "cheeks". Man up, Woman up and quit hiding behind the God from life's realities.
Sheila, then you haven't read the bible. Check out the book of leviticus if you want to know what the bible says about the subject.
We understand that you NEED to spout that crap, because that's the ONLY way you have of understanding the world. WHo ever told you that YOU speak for the creator of 600 se'xtillion stars ? Arrogant much ?
Who is this "creator?"
This is news to me.
Oh, and as far as speaking for this alleged "creator," someone has to do it. It sure as hell doesn't speak for itself. EVER.
I was speaking, strictly, hypothetically. It has never spoken. Deluded Pink Monkeys make up things, and say they are saying what the "creator" says and thinks. Hahahaha.
Sheila: Do you really expect that non-believers would be able to fear retaliation from a being in which they do not believe?
When Christ returns to judge, we're going to sit him down and have a little talk with him about what was actually said back in the day, and ask what he's going to do about the lunatics he inspired.
I can't say that all Christians are LBGT friendly, but back in Parochial School, Father O'Reilly certainly was
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own – a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature."
Einstein
“The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior Reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe, forms my idea of God.” (Einstein, as cited in Libby Anfinsen 1995).
“Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against the traditional ‘opium for the people’ – cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims.” (Einstein, as cited in Max Jammer, Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology, Princeton University Press, 2002, 97).
Copied from, http://nobelists.net/
@G-D
Nice!
G-D, when you're done quoting, try forming your own thoughts.
Your ancient Gods, I have made their lands as being your flesh-n-bones and they dwell inwardly and will no more find their way to the celestial shorelines. Only in death do they give back to ME that which they have stolen when at the dawn of enlightenment I alone did make manifest all celestial things that became MY MATERIAL BODY while the Nothingness is of MY HOLY SPIRIT. I care not among the thoughts of your feeble societies that cannot even live together in wholesomeness regards. MY LOve for this earth's celestial people is fast waning in the just and of the same ways that I did put distance between MY Sons and your people, I will again so do! Your heavenly rewards await those of sound righteousness and absolute fidelities while unrighteous Acts will be tried in ways unknown by you and your people. Be ye warned that I am a jealous G-D for of my Sons the Gods they will be avenged and judged in their solicitous actions that led your people astray and away from MY WILL!
L0ve
🙁 😐 🙂
@G-D
Here we go again with Flesh and Bon-ers. Ease up on that. God is a Pedophile and you are going to get him all riled up. (among other things)
Dear Texas Chainsaw, Originally the earth was of one race and of one language. After Noah and his relatives came forth out of the flood, and the families grew and built cities, migration worked it's way into the area of Bablyon (in present day Iraq) Some of the people there decided they would elevate themselves above God and bring false belief systems and pagan lifestyle into the population. So they built the "Tower of Babel" and was trying to make it as high as they could. God saw that they had evil intent, and it was not time for the ages of the world to end. So he brought a huge whirlwind (I imagine something like a mega 10 Tornado) and destroyed the "Tower of Babel", he then confused everybody's language creating new languages among people and scattered them across the face of the earth. It was during this time, during the days of Peleg that God divided the land into the different continents we have now, further separating people. That is how we came upon the different nationalities and cultures, and languages.
@Shiela
And what would the time-line on that be exactly?
Another question for the Christian fundies.. and Sheila..
If god made only Adam and Eve, and god explicitly disapproves/disallows relationships among close relatives(according to the bible, ofcourse), How did mankind come into being??
What were Adam and Eve been up to in that forest (along with munching on apples)..
@wait
I think we have established that God is a pedo-phile and enjoyed watching two 16 year old kids have in-cest in the Garden of Eden. What we don't know is if God is que-er or straight. I really think we need to research this. My guess....bi-curious.
What flood? Science has already proven that never happened.
Sheila..why did god need to split the world up into continents if he had already made folks them speak different languages,,I know you have to account for reality , but your story makes no sense. Also God would have known that they could not build the tower of Babel into the upper atmosphere and beyond to get above him.. so why not let them try? they would have died from lack of oxygen at about 20.000 ft and most likely would have frozen long before that....but the bible writers would have known nothing about such things I guess.. how high was the tower anyway when it got whacked...
Sheila,
And all of that happened to people that were the product of incest by Noah's grandchildren? Weren't Noah's family the cream of the crop that God saved?
"Originally the earth was of one race and of one language."
Sheila: I would be interested in knowing the source of this information. Can you prove this outside of stating that it was written in the bible?
Isn't that just common sense,reading signs... Isn't as a result inspirations come upon mind of mankind as a Godly guidance as to how to face one's fears...!!! Well it is Godly otherwise no one will arrive at a conclusion nor have faith in it to accomplish it...!!!
Meet the man who’s re-creating Noah’s Ark
Inspired by a dark dream, Dutchman is building massive vessel to biblical proportions;
“I dreamed a part of Holland was flooded,” Huibers, 60, told Janet Shamlian in a report that aired on TODAY Wednesday. “Then, the next day I get the idea to build an ark of Noah.”
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43492787/ns/today-today_people/t/meet-man-whos-re-creating-noahs-ark/#.
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Studies in Holland flood disaster 1953 – Google Books Result
books.google.co.uk/books?
We will illustrate this by a few examples: A retired skipper who expects a flood , flees to the mill warning people on the way. He is put down for a fool, ..
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‘Rising sea levels will not flood Holland’
Friday 02 February 2007
The Netherlands will not be flooded because of global warming but the sea level along the Dutch coast will rise more than the in the rest of the world, according to a report by Dutch environmental think-tank MNP and weather bureau KNMI.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/02/rising_sea_levels_will_not_flo.php
While America & the West is being flooded by LGBT...
Wonder what will be the Noah's Ark for such floods?
Is it this;
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1848.cfm
@Muneef
What the fuk are you going on about?
I hope he isn't building that ark in his basement
and while we're on the subject of holland
I think and feel that Vincent Van Gogh was one great painter maybe the best-
and, that while in Holland
I visited a church, I have no idea what denomination - but I distinctly remember that it was very large, very simple design, and that the walls were bare- no pictures, nothing - and I felt, like, yeah, that's what a church should look and feel like
and if america does get a flood, I hope it's florida that sinks