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November 2nd, 2011
10:24 AM ET

What terrifies an atheist

(CNN) -  Famed filmmaker John Landis brought the world "An American Werewolf in Paris" and Michael Jackson's "Thriller," but nothing scares him more than people.

In this video the avowed atheist, tells CNN's Nima Elbagir why he thinks “we make stuff up” about monsters, religion, and the devil.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Movies

soundoff (2,057 Responses)
  1. R

    Around 2000 year ago...
    P1 to P2 : "I have no reason to hate you."
    P2 to P1 : "I have no reason to hate you."
    P3 to P1 and P2 : "Hey, have you heard a baby boy born in Bethlehem ? He is son of God and will die for us."
    So, P1, P2 and P3 took out their swards and kill each other.
    This is true story. There is a historical record I have. If you do not believe me, than prove me wrong.

    November 2, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Jakers

      Those are some words of wisdom there boy. I don't know what you're driving at? But perhaps you should let go of your bitterness towards someone or something that once tried to convince you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and hurt in you in a way that is completely irrelivant to Jesus Christ himself. I suggest you ask Jesus to come into your heart and it will be there will you find a peace that was once unknowable to you! Thnk about it, pray about it, and God Bless

      November 2, 2011 at 8:01 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I'd love to. But first, you'll have to translate your post into something resembling the English language, you moron. Figure out the difference between "then" and "than", for a start. After that, you can attempt more challenging tasks, like the use of punctuation.

      Really, dear. You expect anyone with even a minimal amount of education to read your posts without laughing at you? If you can't communicate coherently, don't expect others to take you for anything but a joke.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Forgive me. I am SUCH an ego maniac! I LOVE me so hard you have no idea. I hate everyone else because they are all beneath me. I will call you all names because I never get my way, even though I DEMAND it. I am the lord THY GOD.

      November 3, 2011 at 12:35 am |
    • Russell

      Having grown up in "Christian" USA, it has been interesting to hear Christians talk about love and at the same time believe, some times openly but more often quietly, that all of the people on this planet and all those that have lived and died without holding the same beliefs as those Christians are doomed to unending torture for eternity. All of this perpetuated by the all knowing and all loving Creator. Most Christians who will discuss their beliefs with me admit that the actions of the people they judge or are judged by God are not important as much as the beliefs of those people. I don't believe their is a God but I certainly don't know. It seems reasonable that "trying hard" not to harm others including onself is more important than believing anything. My comments mentions Christians and not other groups only because I have personal and life long experience with them. We ever my personal beliefs are discussed with " loving" Christians, eventually burning in hell forever is lovingly thrown at me. If one is sure that people are inherently evil because of their beliefsand not their actions, it is easy to treat them as not deserving the considerations they themsselves deserve.

      November 18, 2011 at 3:45 pm |
    • Bob

      P1 kills P2 then P3 kills P1 who kills P3?

      November 18, 2011 at 4:00 pm |
    • J.W

      Are you saying that the world was perfectly peaceful with no war or violence before the time of Jesus. I do not believe that that is true.

      November 18, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
  2. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Chad thinks that imposing his morals is fine, even when their freedoms are curtailed as a result. He doesn't quite get it that just because you don't like or agree with someone's actions, unless they're infringing on the rights of others, you don't have a leg to stand on.

    November 2, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Your just as guilty because you always insult people who dont agree with your belief. That is hipocrasy at its finest.

      WORSHIP THE ALMIGHTY SUN! AND BRING PRAISES TO IT!

      November 2, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
    • hippypoet

      sry tom tom, someones kids have gotten loose on the internet and have found there moronic way to cnn.com.... then stole my handle... whats a fella to do!

      November 2, 2011 at 7:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Must be the same morons who dropped out of middle schools while still ignorant as goats.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No worries, hippie. The troll is so stupid it makes herbie look like Einstein.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh look at MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I call people idiots and morons! I'm so awesome! I call people names because I LOVE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I never get my way so I have to resort to name calling! I'm SOOOoooOOOOooo Intelligent and educated!!

      *fart*

      November 3, 2011 at 12:38 am |
  3. lacoaster

    Landis, pretty cool. Some religious fanatics might be dealing with upset stomach after this article. The reason why there are fanatical religious people is because there are persons that cannot handle (or do not want to deal with) true facts or reality, so the best they can do is to hide in the religion. Trying to rationalize with someone that is not capable of doing so is like clapping with one hand. Believe me, I had a revelation from heaven last night and was told to share this with you so we can all be saved. All together now, let's say wow!!!! All: Wooooowww! Kumbaya!!!!!

    November 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
  4. Jim

    @hippypoet,
    I'm not addressing the use of philosophical logic to argue religion; I'm arguing that logic is not a proper defense of a position when it comes to philosophy. The common claim made by atheists is that they are the logical ones in the argument. Well logical according to whom? If you want to argue logic in mathematics, go all for it, I know some computer engineers that would love to have a go, but if you want to argue religion/philosophy, a person can't claim their logic is sounder than another person's because logic is based on an interpretation of circ.mstances. I get quite tired, frankly, of seeing this argument. To even claim scientifically there is no God is an interpretation and a leap based on evidence and it then crosses into the realm of philosophy. It's unavoidable.

    November 2, 2011 at 6:22 pm |
    • John Richardson

      In other words, you are losing the word 'logic' to mean something it doesn't mean.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm |
    • hippypoet

      i agree with you. i said i would change it because you are right because i have no need to have this convo again. that sounds like i am being rude, i dont mean it to, sry. Now whats your thoughts on my personal philosophy? i rather enjoy having debates with you.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
    • Jim

      @John... What do you mean?

      November 2, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • Jim

      @hippypoet
      Okay, just wasn't sure if I was clear before, sorry.
      Unfortunately our philosophies aren't easy to relate because you don't hold the belief that there is a God who stands outside of creation and completed that work. Beyond that, you don't believe that this God takes a genuine and personal interest in every aspect of that creation. I do. Do you see how our philosophies aren't compatible? Both of us can use things outside of philosophy to help us define our philosophy. I utilize the scriptures, personal experience, and many aspects of science to accomplish that. I have found that using scriptures and personal experience are inadequate for creating an argument, so I would defer to the science of creation. Philosophically and in it's sub-topic, ethics, I find the need for a loving God who has created and takes a genuine interest in his creation to work the redemption and reconciliation required to restore what evil has destroyed. For instance, I am going to be working with the kids club at my church in a few minutes. Almost every one of these children come from broken homes and don't have a father present in their lives. A few of their dads are in prison or have been in prison. They didn't cause him to leave, his bad choices caused him to remove himself from their lives. Philosophically I argue that the ethics of that are the result of evil in our world. To back that up, I utilize the psychological impact that has on children. However, there is the hope of redemption someday, and just as our choices have separated us from this loving God, he desires to reconcile us. That philosophical example serves two purposes. One, I'll be off- probably for the night, and second, to back up my philosophy 🙂 I'll check back in the morning. Good discussion.

      November 2, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
    • John Richardson

      I mean you should really learn some logic before you expound on it any further.

      November 2, 2011 at 7:39 pm |
    • Jim

      @John,
      I'm convinced you know don't know what logic is. If you would like to know my credentials for expounding on a subject that much of 7 years of education (before you think it is a smart retort, no, it didn't take me 7 years to complete a 4 year degree) has qualifies me to discuss, then a I'd be happy to.

      November 3, 2011 at 9:34 am |
    • Jim

      @hippypoet
      I haven't heard back from you but noticed you've moved onto some other discussions, so I'll move on as well. I do pick and choose what I get into based upon whether someone is willing to actually listen, which you have demonstrated the ability to do, so we'll probably get into it again. I'll check back again after my lesson and see where we're at from there.

      November 3, 2011 at 9:38 am |
    • hippypoet

      sry jim, today was nuts at the office – people calling out and constant walk-ins.... lots of in/out shipments... but i did mannage to have some convo... i missed yours thou.... most people would not admit to picking out things they agree with to and taking out the things they don't in order to form the personal pholsophy – i would totally enjoy this convo but in full length tomorrow. tonight i am dead – thinking exercises are the best to fully understand oneself and others in depth.

      November 3, 2011 at 9:44 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Jim I'm not particularly interested in credentials. But if it makes you feel good to share them, don't let me stand in your way. If and when you want to start making sense, on the other hand, I'm all ears. I'd love to hear what "logic is based on an interpretation of circ-umstances" even means.

      November 3, 2011 at 9:55 pm |
  5. hippypoet

    so far i have posted 2 posts talking about the man named Albert Fish, and no one seems to know anything about him... this is a guy who is exactly what every atheist and parent fear! check it out...bring a barf bag!

    November 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • AtheistSteve

      No thanks...Jesus Camp was enough bile production for me....lol

      November 2, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      I've never heard of this...care to elaborate please. Jesus Camp was frightening enough but you have sparked my curiosity with this one. Please make it a long drawn out post so we can watch the christians shoot fire from their finger tips as they try to refute you again...it's always a pleasant laugh to watch them use circular reasoning to tell you how wrong you are.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • J.W

      I do not know much about him. What I read about him said he thought he heard voices from God, not necessarily that he was trying to follow the Bible.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:20 pm |
    • hippypoet

      ok i tried like 8 times to post quotes from the website but cnn won't let me so i will just post the site – http://www.prairieghosts.com/fish.html

      November 2, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
    • hippypoet

      to give you a quick look at the evil that this man was – he kidnapped children, beat them, murdered them, and then ate them – well a few of them. He even admitts it in a letter to one of the families of the victim.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • hippypoet

      all in the name of religion!

      November 2, 2011 at 6:39 pm |
  6. claybigsby

    what some christians fail to realize when quoting the bible is that they are quoting a book written by 30+ different men over 1500+ years. The people who wrote about Jesus never even new the guy.

    I know, I know...the bible was written by man, inspired by gods word.....yeah, according to man.

    November 2, 2011 at 4:49 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Clay:
      If you're patient enough to watch it, here's why that's mathematically impossible to claim:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r5Ylt1pBMm8

      November 2, 2011 at 5:01 pm |
    • Observer

      It doesn't matter a lot since everyone just picks and chooses what they like from the Bible and ignor the rest.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:15 pm |
    • Observer

      Russ,

      How about a summary of the 54 minutes?

      November 2, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • claybigsby

      refute that all you want, it is true. and MAN did write the book, not god. Hell, the people who wrote about jesus never even knew the guy....

      November 2, 2011 at 5:24 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @claybigsby- "what some christians fail to realize when quoting the bible is that they are quoting a book written by 30+ different men over 1500+ years. The people who wrote about Jesus never even new the guy."

      And how does any of that prove it is incorrect?

      November 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Observer: only in the last ten years have we built a digital database of names common to particular areas at particular times & had the technology to crunch the numbers.

      Without being too complex, it's like tracing how different regions of the country have a different "top 50" for the most common names. And that shifts by decade, etc.

      In light of that newly processed information in the Ancient Near Eastern context, it is evident that the writers of the Gospels MUST have lived in the very same context (both time & place). The names used match the particular context (region and time – which would have been different only 100 miles away, and in later decades), and the names most common in that particular region all have clarifying qualifiers placed after them (i.e., John was common, hence John the Baptist; Thaddeus was not, so no qualifier added).

      Throughout the four Gospels, through MANY different lists of names, the four canonical Gospels repeatedly get it right, while later non-canonical ones fail. Mathematically speaking, the use of names in the Gospels demonstrates a firsthand knowledge that later authors could not have had.

      That's a VERY skeleton thesis. The more the computers crunch the probability of names, the greater the math supports a direct link between particular context & the authors of the four canonical Gospels. And that's information that would have been humanly impossible to know and process 2000 years ago (if fabricated by an author outside that context).

      November 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • John Richardson

      For god's sake, Russ, two of the gospel's give mutually inconsistent genealogies for Jesus, though both tie him to David through Joseph, who is supposedly NOT Jesus's father! And you want to claim that a relative handful of names in the bible "prove" that the authors absolutely MUST have been writing at a time that would somehow mean that they had to know Jesus? This is hands waving idiocy at its Christian apologetic finest!

      November 2, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Russ And DO learn what it means to say that something is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:17 pm |
    • Russ

      @ J.R. – you clearly did not watch the video. That was skeleton outline. If you want to object to the premise, at least check the content. It is mathematically thorough, and it is very on point. Per Richard Bauckham's new book: "Jesus & the Eyewitnesses."

      Your objection regarding the genealogies is an old one that has been addressed many times. One is through Mary, the other is through Joseph. And it's a failure to understand how genealogies were used in the Ancient Near East. Yes, it was through Joseph as well, even though he was not the biological father. It's a demonstration of God's sovereign plan.

      More worthy of note: there are women in Matthew's genealogy. VERY unusual for ancient Jews. Not only that, the women are all "bad girls" in the moral sense. A statement is being made about what God is doing. If he can take a prost.itute like Rahab and redeem her for his plan, he can do the same with a spiritual harlot like me.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:48 pm |
  7. AtheistSteve

    " Let go of your human reasoning and listen to your heart, not your head."

    Your heart pumps blood....nothing else. Thoughts, emotions and whatever else occurs to you is a product of your brain....period. If you insist on speaking in metaphors then realize too that God is a metaphor for the unknown. How is it that Gods wisdom, intellect and vision is so far beyond our understanding, yet here you are telling us in no uncertain terms what he wants, needs and desires? It's just like the absolute folly of prayer. God is supposed to have this grand plan...an outcome to all things that he has laid out in advance with prophesy to highlight his foresight, yet you pray for him to alter his plan. To change the course of events if things are not going well. Wouldn't it make more sense to just gracefully accept how things are since that is how he wants it?

    November 2, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      Of course it would make more sense Steve but people like OGR take the easy way out...stupid foolish delusional brainless christian. Someone else said it perfectly...OGR doesn't care what others say...in their minute brain they can't be wrong.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
  8. Kearns

    His closing line is ironic. In his absence of knowledge of what he can't possibly know, he makes up a theory that when people don't know, they make up things...

    November 2, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • claybigsby

      thats not a theory...thats religion.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Clay: sounds to me like Kearns is pointing out that Landis is guilty of his own critique.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • claybigsby

      and i am rebutting that claim. it isnt a theory, its fact...people will make stuff up to comfort them from the unknown.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Clay: I can't speak for Kearns, but that sounds exactly like what Landis is doing. "I can't know..." followed by "here's what I know..."

      November 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
    • claybigsby

      landis is saying that he cant know what happens when we die, neither can you or I. Its impossible to KNOW what happens when you die. What he does know is that religion is made up to comfort people from the unknown, ie death. I happen to agree. Like he said, people arent scared of the dark, they are scared of what they cannot see in teh darkness. People are scared of everything unknown and religion is easy, its convenient and it makes you feel good about the unknown.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:21 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Clay: at best, Landis is using Ludwig Feuerbach's critique: "all theology is really anthropology." In other words, all talk about God is really just human projections.

      The place where Feuerbach & Landis fail: it requires a *presumption* (aka, leap of faith) that there is no God who might actually desire to communicate with us (including telling us what is beyond death). It assumes a closed system. Considering how little we know of the "known" universe, that's pretty huge leap – not to mention begs the question of where the system came from in the first place.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
  9. Russ

    Interesting that Landis is convinced the greatest demons lie within us, yet he doesn't believe there might also be personified evil without.

    "The Devil's greatest trick was convincing the world he doesn't exist." Charles Baudelaire

    November 2, 2011 at 4:31 pm |
    • Observer

      Probably Satan's greatest trick was to convince believers who say God created everything that God didn't create Hell and Satan.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Observer: on the contrary, we absolutely believe God created both Hell & Satan.

      Hell is the absence of God's grace (like darkness is the absence of light).
      Satan was made good, but rebelled.

      Neither of those things call into question the goodness of God.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:50 pm |
    • Matt

      "Neither of those things call into question the goodness of God."

      True, it doesn't mess with His omni-benevolence, only His omnipresence and omnipotence.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Matt: that's especially true when you consider...
      1) God made us good & able to do good, but we chose to do evil
      2) It would have been justice simply to end us (what we deserved)
      3) God, in his (as you put it) all-knowing/powerful/benevolent grace, chose to take the punishment I deserved on himself at the cross in order both to save me and yet uphold his justice

      November 2, 2011 at 6:15 pm |
    • John Richardson

      No, Satan's greatest trick was convincing people they were following Jesus when they were following the truly demonic Paul.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
    • Observer

      "Neither of those things call into question the goodness of God."

      The excuse for God so badly misjudging how man would turn out was that God left man with choice.

      So why did God create Satan and Hell?

      November 2, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Chuckles: it is not "badly misjudging" to create human beings instead of robots. We were created good with the ability to do either good or evil. Isn't freedom better than automaton? It is our fault we rendered ourselves evil.

      Likewise, Lucifer was made good. He also rendered himself evil.
      Hell is a function of the justice of God. It is what we deserve. It is the same reason people cry out for justice in the face of injustices. Good punishes evil.

      The wonder of it all is that God chose to make the place of the greatest demonstration of justice the very same place as the demonstration of unmerited favor & love toward rebels like us.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm |
    • Russ

      my mistake. that last comment was in response to Observer.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm |
    • Hasa Diga Eebowai

      Yes the creator of all the vast universe has an arch enemy.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:42 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Hada...
      better put: the strongest ant he made turned against him. a major threat to smaller ants, not an issue for him.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:50 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I thought that was Keyser Soze...

      November 2, 2011 at 10:47 pm |
    • Free

      John Richardson
      If Paul invented the idea that Jesus was also God then you might be on to something. He never met Jesus when he was alive. Maybe it was actually Satan's voice that spoke to him on the side of that road? God's chosen people, the Jews, surely did suffer as a result, so I am inclined to agree that some kind of evil was afoot.

      November 3, 2011 at 1:01 am |
  10. TheRationale

    Love it. Although I think the idea of being killed by any sort of creepy monster can be scary without being a metaphor.

    November 2, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
  11. Jim

    @TheTooth
    Yes, logic is entirely subjective within the realm of philosophy, which religion falls under. You would be right in saying logic is not subjective in the realm of mathematics. If you thought I was talking about mathematics, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

    November 2, 2011 at 4:01 pm |
  12. Snow

    Guide to being a good Christian ..

    May the god bless the entire universe.. except...

    .. those pagens..
    .. or those muslims..
    .. or those hindus.. or taoists.. just make it all those who follow other religions
    .. or those athiests.. those are the worst..
    .. or those aliens, if they ever exist on other planets .. they were not made in god's image..
    .. or those animals.. they were never baptised.. no animal formally accepted christ as their savior..
    .. or those mormons..
    .. or those protestents.. just all the other sub christian sects that I am not part of..
    .. or those people who follow the other political party .. they are a disgrace to my sect..
    .. or those people who make more money than me.. they should give more..
    .. or those neighbors whose dog keeps barking at night and keeping me awake..
    .. Just keep it to me and my relatives..
    .. on second thoughts.. just keep it to me and my family..

    but.. god bless them all and show them light ! we are the most tolerant people in the existence who accept everyone!!

    (can't help repeating it 🙂 )

    November 2, 2011 at 3:54 pm |
    • Russ

      The cross tells me two things:
      1) I deserve to die. (It's worse than I want to admit.)
      2) Jesus was willing to die in my place. (I'm more loved than I ever dared to imagine.)

      November 2, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • Snow

      Remind me again.. why do you deserve to die?

      November 2, 2011 at 4:39 pm |
    • Russ

      If I'm hearing you correctly, you've rightly put your finger on Christian hypocrisy. I imagine you have a justifiable reason for the anger that drives you to post such things about Christians as you did above. I'm not denying that. We Christians deserve to die. Jesus made that abundantly clear by his death on the cross.

      The injustices you have experienced by Christians are confirmed by the cross. We are not better than anyone else. Quite on the contrary, our sins certainly deserve punishment. Our hope is in what Jesus did to save us from what we deserve: death for our sins.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Snow

      Duh, it's because his great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great (breath) great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great (breath) great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great (breath) great great great great great great great great great great great great grandma and grandpa ate an apple that magically made them aware they were bare-as.sed naked. SHAME!!!

      November 2, 2011 at 4:47 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Chuckles: sounds to me like Landis has more explaining to do. He sees there is a problem (evil exists in humanity), but is without a standard by which to judge it. No objective reality, no objective moral standard.

      In other words, you've thrown the baby (in this case, apple) out with the bathwater.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • J.W

      There must be some reason do not walk around naked anymore despite how beautiful the human body is.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:53 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @JW

      Go to a nudist colony, you'll change your tune REAL quick.

      @Russ
      Tongue and cheek aside, I think we most certaintly DO have a way to judge good and evil and seeing the spectrum. We've seen evil (hitler, stalin, saddam hussein, etc...), and we've seen good (mother theresa, princess di, ghandi, etc...). Why should we put something like god and satan at either end as characters who are literally out of reach when it comes to that much evil or good? what does that do for me? Make me feel better that when I do something bad at least its not as bad as satan, to make me feel sad that no matter how good I am I'll never be as good as jesus?

      November 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Chuckles: I agree with your examples. I'm asking on what basis you assess good & evil?

      Without an objective moral standard, what ensures good & evil aren't interchangeable, or at the very least changing?

      November 2, 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    • J.W

      Well if you start from the early primates and went to modern humans they gradually seem to become less hairy. I suppose they may have started wearing clothes because they were cold. Or perhaps the brain started to recognize that some people were uglier than others. It couldn't have been for fashion reasons because there were no designer clothing back then. But I guess we will probably never know when clothing was invented because history probably does not go back that far.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:07 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Russ,

      I had a long post explaining what I thought of your question but apparently a naughty word is hidden there so I'll give you the gist of it. you asked, "I'm asking on what basis you assess good & evil? " History. What's worked, what hasn't. Couple that with the golden rule and its pretty easy to as.sess good and evil without needing god and satan to weigh down the spectrum.

      As for your second question, I'm not sure I understand the question. of course good and evil can be interchangable and has been since the beginning of time. There have been winners and losers of conflicts and usually the winners get the right to label the losers as evil, but does that make them evil? Even thuogh you might believe that the bible has a strict policy on what is right and wrong, its black and white, look around you and you'll see that society is better than the society presented in the bible (better in terms of education, general freedom etc...) and we did this not only NOT following the bible, but also getting rid of a few tenants the bible deems as good (ie slavery, child molestation, woman subjugation). I'm not saying the bible is evil and should be rejected, but I am pointing out that in the time of the bible, these things were allowed and embraced by the general community and thought of as "good" and have now changed to mean "bad" in our society.

      November 2, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Chuckles: sorry my second question wasn't clear.

      If history is written by the winners (is that what you meant? not trying to put words in your mouth), what happens if the Nazis had won? Could that be labeled good? I don't think we'd want to go there. I think we'd all agree that the Holocaust was evil regardless. Without an objective moral standard, how do you make such claims?

      For example, as much of a genius as Shakespeare was, he still wrote an incredibly anti-Semitic "Merchant of Venice." He was blind to his own cultural context's evils. But certainly we'd say that was evil – even at the time that it was an accepted thought. And if he (a genius) was blind to his cultural context's evils, are we so arrogant as to think we are not equally so?

      November 2, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Russ

      I was in fact saying history is written by the winners and although I'm jewish I think had Hitler won his war and achieved his goal, then his actions could be construed as "good" in the society that he created and no one in the universe would be any the wiser that Hitler was evil. You also mention that Shakespeare wrote the merchant of venice and can not be blamed for writing what was culturally accepted then, but could that action even be labeled as evil? I think the same applies to the bible as well. As abhorrent and disgusting as we think it is to own a slave or woman subjugation, both were acceptable in the bible and to this day aren't seen as "evil" even within the lens of our now much more politically correct society. Jesus even had a whole lot of teachings of love and peace, but keep in mind the message that he didn't feel the need to point out is that it only applied to jews. It wasn't until Paul came around that he opened up the teachings to the gentiles.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:01 pm |
    • John Richardson

      @Russ Don't worry! You'll get what you think you deserve!

      When I see the cross, I think: The truly barbarous Romans killed bazoodles of people with these nasty things. No one should ever have died that way, but it's absurd to select one out of the many and act like his suffering was any greater or more significant than the suffering of no doubt billions of people whose lives and deaths were as bad or worse, sometimes a lot worse.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • Reality

      @ Chuckles: sounds to me like Landis has more explaining to do. He sees there is a problem (evil exists in humanity), but is without a standard by which to judge it. No objective reality, no objective moral standard.

      Standards/codes for human conduct have been around for a long time.

      To wit:

      Many OT, NT and koran thu-mpers are actually thu-mping the rules and codes of the ancients like King Hammurabi and the Egyptians who wrote the Book of the Dead and who did NOT need revelations from angels or mountain voices to develop needed rules of conduct for us h-o-minids.

      "Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
      I have not reviled the God.
      I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
      I have not done what the God abominates . . .
      I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
      I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
      I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
      I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
      I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
      I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
      I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
      I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
      I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
      I have not blocked the God at his processions."

      "The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier docu-ment, rather than vice-versa."

      November 2, 2011 at 6:31 pm |
    • Russ

      @ J.R. – yes, it is absurd that one merely human figure could pay that. But consider (even if you disagree with Christianity) the premise: that God would become a man and live a perfect life (that we could not) & die a human death (which would have ended us) at our hands.

      That one life would be infinitely valuable. We would be infinitely culpable. And God's choice to use it as an expression of his love would be unfathomably deep. That is why we believe there is no other love like this.

      I told God "go to Hell." He did. To save me from it. That is life-altering.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:34 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Reality: even Hammurabi was assuming an objective standard (though it was polytheistic). Why did they feel the need to admit (as Landis puts it) that there are inner demons? It begs the question: what is wrong with humanity? If we are inherently good (as many secular humanists posit), why even have the need to make a code?

      If there is a God, who chose to reveal himself in time (which is what most theists believe), why is it surprising that cultures prior to God's revelation of the Law would have noted some of the same problems inherent to humanity that God would confirm to be the case?

      November 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • John Richardson

      Jesus's death was ghastly but, once again, that's nothing terribly unusual. His life was not inordinately difficult. Many have endured worse. I won't concede he was morally blameless. Some of his alleged actions were at least questionable and we of course don't know how he really lived. How many religious hypocrites do you have to learn about before you stop swallowing their PR whole? Even on the Christian story, Jesus spent less than 48 hours in hell. That's absolutely puny compared to the eternity that many perfectly decent people allegedly have in store. I'm not impressed in the least.

      November 2, 2011 at 7:37 pm |
    • R

      You forgot Gay...Christians love to hate Gays...

      November 2, 2011 at 7:40 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Russ must be a horrible person if he needs a book to tell him right from wrong.

      November 2, 2011 at 10:48 pm |
    • Reality

      And for added thought, here is what Professor JD Crossan has to say about atonement theology: (from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

      "Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

      "Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

      "In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

      November 2, 2011 at 11:34 pm |
    • Russ

      @tallulah13: yes, i am a horrible person. I needed him to die for me.

      Considering the human proclivity for self-destruction, both communally & individually, what basis do we have for a higher self-estimation? If anything, the bloodiest century in human history having just ended, I would think it would make us reconsider that we all need clarification on good & evil.

      November 3, 2011 at 8:08 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Russ
      While it may have been the bloodiest century in history body count wise, it was also a century of unprecedented population growth.
      Given that man has no serious predator save ourselves, doesn't it make sense that there would be more killed?
      Had there been no culling of the herd, the global population would far exceed the 7 billion current inhabitants.
      We are all ready in danger of drowning in our own effluence. Would you wish another 3 billion humans to compound the problem?

      November 3, 2011 at 8:14 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Reality: the consistent scholarly criticism that Crossan gets is that he has created his own version of Jesus, completely ignoring the one presented in the Bible.

      For example, it is clear throughout the Bible that atonement is central – in particular the blood cost of sin. Adam & Eve (Gen.3: if you sin, you will die), Abraham (Gen.15, if you fail, may you be cut to pieces like this), Moses (Ex.12, the Passover requires blood), etc. There's a reason the center of the Jewish faith was a temple where sacrifices were required for sin. Jesus purposefully takes up that divine statement about our condition & offers himself as the ultimate sacrifice. Even if you think the Bible is nothing more than the most read piece of literature in history & you abhor it for what it teaches, that central theme is still evident.

      The Jesus Seminar's attempt to divorce Jesus from his historical context only results in self-projections. In regard to Crossan's position on the resurrection of the dead, the Bible has at least 10 depictions of resurrection of the dead. On OT prophecy of Christ, Isa.53 & Ps.22 are passages that are the most frequently quoted in the New Testament connecting the Old Testament views of atonement with the New Testament, particularly seen as prophesying Jesus. In both cases, Crossan attempts to fabricate a God he finds more palatable than the One presented in the Bible.

      While I disagree with the atheists on this blog, I am glad there appears to be the integrity to reject the Jesus of the Bible rather than concoct one of convenience that is merely a self-projection. My primary question for Crossan (as a self-proclaimed Christian): can Jesus tell you things you don't want to hear? Or is the Jesus of the Jesus Seminar (as Luke Timothy Johnson put it) just a pre-conceived notion you brought to the texts?

      November 3, 2011 at 8:43 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Doc: I'm assuming you're not intending to defend the Nazis or Stalin's brutality... Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

      Population growth is something to consider, but if I'm hearing the statistics correctly, all prior known centuries on record added together are still less than the 20th c war death toll. That seems to be exponentially greater than the population growth. I'm open to someone with more accurate stats.

      The greater issue: on what basis are the evils of the 20th c (and any prior) labeled as such? Even your term "culling the herd" could be seen as incredibly 'clinical' in the face of what most would call 'evil.' If your loved one was killed tragically or unjustly, would you consider it an act of evil or simply population reduction?

      November 3, 2011 at 8:53 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Russ
      Approximately 160 million people died in wars, from the boxer rebellion to Kosovo's liberation war, during the 20th century.
      The total global population increased by 4.4 billion in the same time frame.
      As for the question of personal experience – My father was an infantry medic and a SARTech and I spent time with the signals batallion. I came to terms with the idea of personal loss a long time ago.
      But my individual experiences don't enter into an analysis of large groups, nor should yours.
      I believe that while one cannot predict the actions of an individual, the movement of masses of people is subject to statistical ana.lysis.
      Only Jesus was capable of infinite empathy and compassion.
      Normals humans can't personalize the suffering of the world!!

      November 3, 2011 at 10:16 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Russ, you really are a terrible person. You condone torture and murder if it benefits you. You need the threat of punishment and the promise of rewards to just exist with other humans. If you need a 2000 year old book of mythology to understand right from wrong, you obviously lack simple humanity. I am truly grateful that you aren't typical.

      November 3, 2011 at 11:23 pm |
    • I Wonder

      tallulah13, Maybe Russ is a real baddie and is in prison. Maybe he gets computer time for preaching.

      November 3, 2011 at 11:45 pm |
  13. hippypoet

    you want really terrifies the rational logically person a.k.a. the atheists..... people who completeply believe every word in the bible to be the word of god – read up on a man named Albert Fish... a devoted christian, who took the bible exactly as it is written.

    November 2, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
  14. Answer

    The short video confirms every detail of what humans are – we are afraid of the unknown.
    It shows itself true by the retarded theists defending themselves from the truth. Bless your ignorance and thanks for the laughs that you provide daily. Cheers!

    November 2, 2011 at 3:00 pm |
    • warmesTghosT

      "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown."

      – H.P. Lovecraft

      Essentially what religion boils down to is mankind's primal fear of death. It is the ultimate unknown. It seems like every few centuries the theists go to war with one another, as though to send emissaries into this unknown realm in the hopes that some would come back with answers. To the best of my knowledge, none of these celestial messengers have ever returned to tell us what lies on the other side.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      warmesTghosT....goes to show how much you know, but it wouldn't matter you wouldn't believe them anyway. Go to you eternal emptiness just like your life and we'll choose Heaven. Only thing your eternal emptiness ain't gonna end up empty like you think. It will make Saw look like snoopy.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • Snow

      @our god.. you can choose to go to fuzzy bunny land for all you care.. but in the end, you, me, and every one in the world is going to the same place.. the big old nothing.. we become worm food while people living will continue living till they too become wormfood.. your god-in-my-mind is just going to keep you busy from not thinking about that fear.. nothing more

      November 2, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • warmesTghosT

      How lovingly christian of you, OGR!

      You pray for me. I'll think for you.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Watch the use of the r-word plz.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:43 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Entil'za

      Watch the use of the r-word plz

      god and all who follow are RETARDS!

      there, i made it bigger so you could more easly watch the use of it!

      November 2, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • Huh

      "Go to you eternal emptiness just like your life"

      It's amazing how christians keep saying this nonsense to themselves. The reason they use that line is in fact their own lives are empty, without meaning so they have to turn to a invisible friend to believe in themselves. It's pitiful.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
    • hippypoet

      its called projecting...christians do it all the time!

      November 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Snow – I have no fear of death, that is the atheist that fear death. I will meet my makes, I fear who you may meet in your "void you've created" to deal with your fear that we are right.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      @ ogr
      The only reason you don't fear death is because you've created a beautiful afterlife for yourself. This was done out of the fear of death.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:07 pm |
    • Snow

      @OGR.. omg..omg.. you are so correct.. it is all the atheists in all these comments who are wallowing in fear of death that they are forgetting to live their one live they know they have.. isn't it..

      now.. wake up and actually read the comments..

      November 2, 2011 at 4:09 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @hippypoet- "god and all who follow are RETARDS! there, i made it bigger so you could more easly watch the use of it"

      Yes..and the fact that you are behaving as a child right now. You are better than this, or so I have thought.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:10 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Snow... You want to do what you want to do and think it is okay so you push God away. There is a God and he will judge the rebellion of all sinners and atheists.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:13 pm |
    • hippypoet

      yeah, i am sry for the word retard, my sister gets so mad when i use that word its ingrained in my head to come back with such words just to annoy – i am not above petty meaniness although i would like to and try... it is often fun to be rude in a joke for a laugh.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:15 pm |
    • Snow

      @OGR.. if God is as all-powerful and omnipotent as you claim him to be, he made me the way I am.. he is the one who created these thoughts.. so why would he be mad at what he himself created..

      .. or are you suggesting that god is not powerful?

      November 2, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Snow – He created you with free will. He created a people who would (choose) to love him, not robots. It's your choice and your fate.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      If god is all powerful and wanted me to believe in him why did he make me the child of parents who let me choose my own religion? Why wouldn't he put me with evangelical Christians? If he created me he would know there was a slim chance of me becoming a believer while growing up with the family that I did.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @hip- tis ok...it's just one of those words that just doesn't have any value really in our society anymore. It's just meant to hurt.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
    • Snow

      @OGR.. So, let me get this straight.. He created people.. He gave them freewill.. and then put a rule saying, "Praise me and Sing to me and Love me and Suck up to my a$$ or burn in hell"?

      Good god!!

      November 2, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      "Our God Reigns
      Snow... You want to do what you want to do and think it is okay so you push God away. There is a God and he will judge the rebellion of all sinners and atheists."

      Wow, are you ever brainwashed beyond reason!!!!! What god first of all? Second, please provide the evidence for this said god!

      Atheists do as they wish because we have free will and know how to think for ourselves. We do not believe in fairy tales and thus we don't believe in god...no way for us to push away something that can't be evidenced to exist. We do not believe in heaven or hell because once again there is no evidence to support them. For the most part we live happy, productive lives without the need for some sky daddy to answer and solve all of problems. We are able to face reality (unlike you who obviously has no capability of thinking for yourself).

      You are delusional if you think you are going to be taken up to this so-called heaven. No-one has ever returned from the dead to say if it exists or not and until it happens, you also have no proof or evidence for it.

      You a

      November 2, 2011 at 4:48 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      to finish: you are honestly one of the stupidest people I have read a post from in awhile...go back to school and study some real books and pull your head out of the churches a$$.
      Btw: if you do not want people to speak down to you, then don't threaten them with fairy tale places...you are a liar who has no idea as to what you speak of!!

      November 2, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • fred

      Answer
      Within you and 98% of people alive today is an awareness that keeps us from jumping into boiling lava, high speed trucks, lions cages at feeding time etc. Basic instinct sets off alarms in our mind/soul that cannot be denied. Your body is trying to tell you something and you’re putting your head in the sand. You pretend nothing is out there after death and believers either know or pretend something is there. Either way you and I face the same reality with the same basic instinct. On the one hand you comfort yourself clutching the fluff bunny of nonexistence and I comfort myself with the reality of the cross. Jesus died and rose again on the 3rd day now sitting at the right hand of the Father. Jesus exact words “if it were not so I would have told you”. My proof is in the power of the Holy Spirit that filled the apostles at Antioch Just as Christ promised. My proof is the Holy Spirit that has filled me and others that I have personally witnessed. My proof is a promise the Jews, Romans and all humanity to this day could not extinguish. Stalin could not extinguish the light in a darkened world with China now endorsing Christianity within her boarders.
      You Answer are holding onto a fuzzy bunny that your own science cannot prove, seems childish and will leave you cuddling a vapor instead of the Cross. You cannot say no one ever told you or you did not know. Even the Greeks were sent a strong message their gods were manmade and that message came from the living God whose power is displayed in the universe, in your heart and in your basic instinct

      November 2, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • hippypoet

      do you like how i just played good cop bad cop just then? pretty clever aren't i? your always going to be a step behind me. i will say whatever i want and then pretend like i didn't really mean it and youll stupidly think im actually a nice kid. lol

      November 2, 2011 at 7:39 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Sure sure Fake Hippy

      November 2, 2011 at 7:42 pm |
    • hippypoet

      ok whoever is the loser taking handles because they lack imagination please stop – i am asking nicely... go take someone elses name! just so people know, this is the real hippypoet!

      November 2, 2011 at 7:43 pm |
    • Camus

      "your always going to be a step behind me."

      Especially since only an idiot would use "your" when they meant to use "you're"

      November 2, 2011 at 7:46 pm |
    • hippypoet

      camus, i have to admit, i don't care for such grammer fixes... however just so you know, that wasn't me you were correcting, it was some child on there parents computer.

      November 2, 2011 at 7:50 pm |
    • Camus

      I figured not, I just wanted to see what the fake would do.

      November 2, 2011 at 9:11 pm |
    • hippypoet

      i sit at a desk all day. i own a business my daddy gave me, so i don't really know what hard work is. so everyone else does the work and i don't care for proper grammar usage.

      November 3, 2011 at 12:41 am |
    • hippypoet

      from the evil bizzaro hippy – "i sit at a desk all day. i own a business my daddy gave me, so i don't really know what hard work is. so everyone else does the work and i don't care for proper grammar usage."

      first i don't sit at a desk all day, i wish, second- i bought the biz – 20 million ... still paying... third – i worked since i was 10, mowing lawns and other landscape crappola.... finally the last part was the only part that was correct, yes i care not for proper grammer, why, its the message thats important, if one can't see the message because they are too busy correcting then correct it in your head then reply to the message!

      November 3, 2011 at 9:50 pm |
  15. Team righto

    Proverbs 14:7 is very true, looking at some of these comments.

    November 2, 2011 at 2:56 pm |
    • Loch Ness Monster

      I'm gonna need about tree fitty.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:45 pm |
    • Snow

      that indeed is a sound advice to stay away from foolish men.. that is why I stay away from religious nuts!

      November 2, 2011 at 4:14 pm |
  16. warmesTghosT

    What are atheists afraid of?

    We are afraid of our fellow humans who accept the patently ridiculous dogma of ancient cultures in order to subjugate and demean others in the name of their imaginary friend. This invisible friend created us all in its image, and loves us unconditionally, and is a completely perfect being in every way...but demands that we worship it slavishly unless we wish to suffer eternity in torment.

    These fellow humans are content with ignorance rather than a search for truth, content to hate their fellow man based on the irrational and downright silly beliefs from thousands of years ago, content to judge, condemn and sometimes murder their fellow man for an ideology that hasn't a shred of evidence behind its alleged divine veracity.

    We fear anyone who has to force the propagation of their ridiculous beliefs through the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. We fear the willful ignorance of anyone who refuses to see the cold hard truth of reality in favor of a comforting lie.

    If god does exist and did indeed create us, I feel it would honor most atheists far more than most theists. Atheists revere the spirit of this supposed creator by searching for the mysteries of existence and questioning everything we know of reality as we perceive it. Theists are happy to bury their heads in the sand and wait for the end of days.

    I fear anyone in a position of power who bases their life on ancient Palestinian magic-men, talking snakes, Jewish zombies and humans made from dust and ribs.

    November 2, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • TheTooth

      Amen! Halleluiah! G O D dammit! well said warmesTghosT... well said.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • Entil'za

      "We are afraid of our fellow humans who accept the patently ridiculous dogma of ancient cultures in order to subjugate and demean others in the name of their imaginary friend."

      ~How does it subjugate anyone? Demean, I think you may want to go about these boards a bit more and see who demeans whom more.

      "This invisible friend created us all in its image, and loves us unconditionally, and is a completely perfect being in every way...but demands that we worship it slavishly unless we wish to suffer eternity in torment."

      ~Who are you talking about? Invisible?
      Oddly enough, if one controls everything...then it may actually consider you as something that belongs to it.

      "These fellow humans are content with ignorance rather than a search for truth, content to hate their fellow man based on the irrational and downright silly beliefs from thousands of years ago, content to judge, condemn and sometimes murder their fellow man for an ideology that hasn't a shred of evidence behind its alleged divine veracity."

      ~Well..that's a flat out lie. Just because one has a faith does not mean they are not searching for truth or new ways to look at things. Much of what you said also has to do more with the human condition than that of relgion. Men will kill for anykind of thought, creed or belief...whether it's religious or not.

      "We fear anyone who has to force the propagation of their ridiculous beliefs through the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. We fear the willful ignorance of anyone who refuses to see the cold hard truth of reality in favor of a comforting lie."

      ~How have you been forced?
      Not all believers of a faith are so because of how they are raised.
      Don't worry....ppl of faith also worry about willful ignorance of those who don't know much about those of faith.

      "If god does exist and did indeed create us, I feel it would honor most atheists far more than most theists. Atheists revere the spirit of this supposed creator by searching for the mysteries of existence and questioning everything we know of reality as we perceive it. Theists are happy to bury their heads in the sand and wait for the end of days."

      ~Again....that is a flat out lie. Ppl of faith also search out the mysteries. To imply they don't is foolishness.

      "I fear anyone in a position of power who bases their life on ancient Palestinian magic-men, talking snakes, Jewish zombies and humans made from dust and ribs."

      ~No such thing as Palestine in the timeframe you are referencing. No one called them magic except those who just want to smear their character. Try serpent instead of snake...you would beat least correct in your reference. Zombies and resurrection have nothing in common.
      See...those of faith should be afraid of those that cannot even take the time to cite information correctly and relies on their ignorance as a crutch.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:54 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Entil'za

      Well you asked for it, so now I guess you're going to make me refute each little statement you made and show the inherint idiocy you displayed to the many people reading this board. I just want to say for the record that you called me out first.....

      "how does it subjugate anyone? Demean, I think you may want to go about these boards a bit more and see who demeans whom more." I think you probably haven't read a history book, but there are lots of little factoids about the papal state, the roman christian empire, the monarchy in england, etc... that wishes to use religion as a way to rule (lets not even see the ME and all the theocracies that are alive and well there)

      "Who are you talking about? Invisible?
      Oddly enough, if one controls everything...then it may actually consider you as something that belongs to it."
      - Has god appeared to you? What does he look like? The bible says we're made in his image so does god look like some sort of androgenous racial mixture of a person or like what we like to think so?.....wait, you HAVEN'T seen him? I guess that qualifies as invisible again huh. Lets also not go into demeaning statements, I make a statement about faith, not about a specific person, then you claim apparently no one loves me..... hmmm......

      "Well..that's a flat out lie. Just because one has a faith does not mean they are not searching for truth or new ways to look at things. Much of what you said also has to do more with the human condition than that of relgion. Men will kill for anykind of thought, creed or belief...whether it's religious or not."
      –Firstly, when you have a religion that you can answer "god did it" it sort of takes the search out of the research huh? as for mankind killing for whatever reason because of religion or not is correct, and I'm not one to point out whether it matters if people have killed more in the name of religion than anything else or not. It IS religion however that convinces people who wouldn't normally do bad things to do so in the name of religion, saavy?

      "How have you been forced?
      Not all believers of a faith are so because of how they are raised.
      Don't worry....ppl of faith also worry about willful ignorance of those who don't know much about those of faith."
      - many many people are forced by their parents, governments (in terms of laws, the things enacted that are created so everyone has to follow them and so on) You are right though, a lot of people join a religion later in life either because of fear of death or an action they committed that they want absolution for. However, willfull ignorance of non-believers means what exactly? I can quote the bible just as much as you, read the bible just as much as you and yet here I stand, a non-believer. That's not called willful ignornace, thats called 2 different points of view. This happens in christianity as well, are they also being willfully ignorant because they believe (without a concrete foundation) something different than you?

      "~Again....that is a flat out lie. Ppl of faith also search out the mysteries. To imply they don't is foolishness." – You don't search out mysteries kiddo, you search for ways to explain how god can be found in a mystery but are content that you already know the answer before asking the question. Thats you burying your head in the sand champ, no if, ands or buts.

      "No such thing as Palestine in the timeframe you are referencing. No one called them magic except those who just want to smear their character. Try serpent instead of snake...you would beat least correct in your reference. Zombies and resurrection have nothing in common.
      See...those of faith should be afraid of those that cannot even take the time to cite information correctly and relies on their ignorance as a crutch."
      – Ok, first, what do you call what god can do if its not magic and how is it different than magic? second, Why does a talking serpent make anymore sense than a talking snake. That's as stupid as correcting someone that jonah lived inside a giant fish for 3 days, not a giant whale, as if that answers any of the obvious questions. Thirdly, do you take offense that jesus was a zombie because of the connotation? Zombies are humans that died and then come back to life walking the earth (this is the most basic), obviously you can do a compare and contrast and show how jesus wasn't a zombie as we know them in pop culture, however jesus was a zombie, sorry....

      November 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @Chuckles-Odd...I didn't call you out on this specific spot..or any other really. But ok..let's play.

      "I think you probably haven't read a history book, but there are lots of little factoids about the papal state, the roman christian empire, the monarchy in england, etc... that wishes to use religion as a way to rule (lets not even see the ME and all the theocracies that are alive and well there)"

      ~That might make sense if the original writer was talking about the past. But the author was talking in the present tense and seemed to be taking a personal interest in it. I stand by my statement and think you should focus on the present and not the past since that is what we are talking about.

      "Has god appeared to you? What does he look like? The bible says we're made in his image so does god look like some sort of androgenous racial mixture of a person or like what we like to think so?.....wait, you HAVEN'T seen him? I guess that qualifies as invisible again huh. Lets also not go into demeaning statements, I make a statement about faith, not about a specific person, then you claim apparently no one loves me..... hmmm......"

      ~In a sense of with the eyes...no. But I will reference to you that Moses saw him. That is enough to saw that "invisiblity" is not an aspect of God as in a absolute. Sorry..you are incorrect to call invisible as if it is an aspect of him.
      As for the image of God...I think that lies more in the spirit than the physical. But that's just a theological opinion.
      Umm, no...I am claiming that the faith that you have that someone loves you is on the same level as any other faith. You are just upset because of it's personal nature. Shocking that you don't seem to care when you make fun of other ppl's faith that is very personal. Are we catching on yet?

      "–Firstly, when you have a religion that you can answer "god did it" it sort of takes the search out of the research huh? as for mankind killing for whatever reason because of religion or not is correct, and I'm not one to point out whether it matters if people have killed more in the name of religion than anything else or not. It IS religion however that convinces people who wouldn't normally do bad things to do so in the name of religion, saavy?"

      ~If anyone gives that kind of answer and relies on it as the last word of the search..that is wrong. But there is not evidence that being religious limits one's ability to search for knowledge and truth. Go and reference Monsignor Georges Lemaître and tell me again how being religious hinders thought.
      I am a true believer that ppl will find something to justify their behavior.

      "many many people are forced by their parents, governments (in terms of laws, the things enacted that are created so everyone has to follow them and so on) You are right though, a lot of people join a religion later in life either because of fear of death or an action they committed that they want absolution for. However, willfull ignorance of non-believers means what exactly? I can quote the bible just as much as you, read the bible just as much as you and yet here I stand, a non-believer. That's not called willful ignornace, thats called 2 different points of view. This happens in christianity as well, are they also being willfully ignorant because they believe (without a concrete foundation) something different than you?"

      ~Again..you are confusing matters between the original commentor and my response. But you are a liar. I never said that anyone joins a faith because of their fear of death. That is your as_sumption, not mine.
      You are most welcome to believe or not believe as you will. It doesn't matter that much to me.
      I never denied their are those in Christianity that are ignorant of things. It is true, just as their are those who are not religious that are very ignorant about a great many things.

      "– You don't search out mysteries kiddo, you search for ways to explain how god can be found in a mystery but are content that you already know the answer before asking the question. Thats you burying your head in the sand champ, no if, ands or buts."

      ~Plz keep your ad hominems to yourself..kiddo. No offense but you know nothing about me or what my faith is. I have yet to declare one. I've never said I knew any answer before anyone asked a question. This game of yours is odd but fun. You lie so poorly and it's so easy to show you as one.

      "- Ok, first, what do you call what god can do if its not magic and how is it different than magic? second, Why does a talking serpent make anymore sense than a talking snake. That's as stupid as correcting someone that jonah lived inside a giant fish for 3 days, not a giant whale, as if that answers any of the obvious questions. Thirdly, do you take offense that jesus was a zombie because of the connotation? Zombies are humans that died and then come back to life walking the earth (this is the most basic), obviously you can do a compare and contrast and show how jesus wasn't a zombie as we know them in pop culture, however jesus was a zombie, sorry...."

      ~You may call it magic if you think you must. Under you way of thinking I can call your a twit. Sure it may be offensive but that's how I see you and how you see it doesn't matter. Are we catching on yet? You are wanting to use a term that no one in Christianity would use and would find offensive. The term "supernatural" would be better and more accurate to all.
      Serpent over snake? Sorry, I am one for the details and accuracy. The book of Genesis says serpent and not snake. Referencing correct information shouldn't be too hard to justify I would hope. That's why some artists have shown the serpent like this: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:AdamNeve.jpg and not a snake.
      As for the zombie stuff...zombies do not come back to life and in the process of resurrection...you do. So again..you are incorrect.

      This was a fun game....you are so wrong so much of the time. 🙂

      November 2, 2011 at 6:13 pm |
    • warmesTghosT

      Errrmm Chuckles I appreciate you taking the time to refute each of Entilza's points, but you and I are not the same person =D

      I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but please do not speak for me.

      November 2, 2011 at 10:09 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @warmesTghosT

      Yeah.... unless I have a split personality and type under your name without realizing it I got the whole separate person thing. I was answering for me, not for you.

      @Entil'za

      Hmm....liar huh? I fail to see where I lied.

      1st point. I am talking about the present (a.k.a. theocracies in todays world, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Vatican City, Israel (to a degree)). It's also incredibly stupid to ignore the past, why would you ignore the past when it gives a lot of insight about how a people act under different systems. Maybe you should go to the ME and talk to the jews and palestinians and say, "Come on guys! We're only talking about the present tense, who cares what happened in the past?" See how that works out for you.

      2nd point, Moses did NOT see him, he only head a voice and he saw a burning bush. The burning bush is only an incarnation of god, but that is not gods true form, if you disagree with that statement, then we have bigger issues at play. Read the Zohar about what god apparently looks like, it's some CRAAAAZY SH.IT, crazy enough that I think if you ever actually saw that you would probably not even recognize it as god. Also, to your point about having faith in a person and a god are two VERY different things. A person one, is tangible, easy to communicate with and has a proven track record that many different sources can attest to. Blind faith in a deity that you learned from a book and conversations with yourself takes a much bigger leap, a lot more faith and you don't know if you've misplaced that faith until after death, which is pretty final. Not to mention, if you lose faith in a person nothing with happen, in god = straight to eternal dam.nation you go! As for me getting so upset, nothing of the kind, I thought it was funny you called me out and so I responded, if you think that a random person on the internet can rattle your personal faith though, well lets just say that I guess you aren't as sure of yourself as you think....

      Next point: people of faith search for answers to mysteries. I can accept there are christian scientists out there and understand the point they try to make. God is everywhere, we are just finding ways how god reveals himself through acts. It's a cool bit of mental gymnastics, assigning all meaning to an all powerful god that is attributed to making something from nothing, and then understanding that this god works in "mysterious ways" and for some reason is incredibly simple to understand in the bible, his desires, his emotions, his wants and yet he's always said to be very complex, so he is because we said so. duhh. To the average christian, they are content knowing god did it, not all christians are scientists like LaMatire. I also don't understand why people think if they say a specific scientist did or said something, they are above reproach and criticism. Anyone is subject to being questioned, ESPECIALLY scientists. It's hard for me to accept most christian scientist findings because it's premise starts on a foundation I find very unbelievable. Now does it matter what I think? No, not in the long run. If they can verify findings without referencing god and they are peer reviewed and pass that stage I don't have a problem accepting the answer, however if god is added into the question, then I would expect equal proof that god exists in order to accept anything based on that premise. Capiche?

      Next, you said not all believers are this way because of how they were raised. I simply expanded on this point and said that people who are believers are strongly influenced by how they were raised as well as many many people people become believers in either self-actualization, absolution or fear of death. It's healthy to have a fear of death, it's not necessary to have faith to take away that fear. You can cite a couple of people to the contrary just keep in mind there are exceptions to most rule, that does not make the rule invalid.

      Lastly, so I'm supposed to call god "supernatural" instead of a "magician" because you don't like the term? Don't think thats my problem. Your second part about calling me a twit.....wasn't it you who just said lets keep the ad hominum to a minimum? Not wanting to give offense? No? cool, just checking. I also wasn't making fun that you corrected a fact that it was a serpent and not a snake, like I said, its the same as correcting people when they say jonah was eaten by a whale. He wasn't, it was a giant fish. The funny part is that you don't find the idea of a talking serpent equally as absurd. If I told you this marsupial that looked like a koala lives in my room, talks like a british man, smokes a pipe and gets really wasted every night are you going to say, "well actually, Koala's are mammals, not marsupials" as if that explains all the subsequent behavior....... You see my point?
      As for the image you provided, since that's not how the bible portrays what a serpent looks like, its safe to say that picture means nothing other than apologists trying to make sense of a talking animal.....
      As for Zombie jesus. The big departure between jesus and your average zombie is that jesus doesn't look like he's decaying like a usual zombie would. Please, show me how the resurrection of a dead body is somehow different for jesus than it is for zombies.... oh yeah, god did it.

      November 3, 2011 at 1:07 am |
    • JA

      as for your second part chuckles....exodus 33:21-23 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

      so yes he did see him in a physical form

      November 3, 2011 at 9:22 am |
    • Entil'za

      "Hmm....liar huh? I fail to see where I lied."

      ~Not surprising.

      "1st point. I am talking about the present (a.k.a. theocracies in todays world, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Vatican City, Israel (to a degree)). It's also incredibly stupid to ignore the past, why would you ignore the past when it gives a lot of insight about how a people act under different systems. Maybe you should go to the ME and talk to the jews and palestinians and say, "Come on guys! We're only talking about the present tense, who cares what happened in the past?" See how that works out for you."

      ~I am not ignoring the past, never once ignored the past and never planned on ignoring the past. But the topic is in the present and revolving around Christianity. Israel is not a theocracy. I know because I actually been there, and to the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Egypt and Jordan. You might hate this, but there is NO Christian theocracy or Jewish theocracy that is subjugate anyone. You may continue to lie now if you wish.

      "2nd point, Moses did NOT see him, he only head a voice and he saw a burning bush. The burning bush is only an incarnation of god, but that is not gods true form, if you disagree with that statement, then we have bigger issues at play."

      ~So much fun when ignorant ppl walk right into things. Reference Exodus 33. Plz go beyond what you know...don't be afriad to search out to find more info.

      "Read the Zohar about what god apparently looks like,..."

      ~Too bad Zohar and his writings isn't on topic. Maybe you would like to bring up what the Hindus think the divine looks like next, or perhaps the Zorastrians.

      "A person one, is tangible, easy to communicate with and has a proven track record that many different sources can attest to."

      ~Again..we are not talking about the faith that a person exists but the faith that you feel a person loves you. Heck, we are not even talking about the actions of a person, the the faith you put in those actions.

      "Blind faith in a deity that you learned from a book and conversations with yourself takes a much bigger leap, a lot more faith and you don't know if you've misplaced that faith until after death, which is pretty final. Not to mention, if you lose faith in a person nothing with happen, in god = straight to eternal dam.nation you go! As for me getting so upset, nothing of the kind, I thought it was funny you called me out and so I responded, if you think that a random person on the internet can rattle your personal faith though, well lets just say that I guess you aren't as sure of yourself as you think...."

      ~I didn't really call you out. I pointed out the flaw you have on faith. And no one is saying that blind faith is good. No one is.
      I don't know....try telling the person that you know they don't love you. I doubt it would just be a simple matter.
      You haven't rattled anything but it's cute that you allow your ego to grow large enough for you to think you could. I am sorry but like evil...stupidity must be confronted. I merely confronted yours.

      "Next point: people of faith search for answers to mysteries. I can accept there are christian scientists out there and understand the point they try to make. God is everywhere, we are just finding ways how god reveals himself through acts."

      ~No one is talking about scientists. I was referring to the everyday person. Christians can study science just as easily as anyone and can add to the collective knowledge of mankind. They are not trying to prove God exists through science.

      "It's a cool bit of mental gymnastics, assigning all meaning to an all powerful god that is attributed to making something from nothing, and then understanding that this god works in "mysterious ways" and for some reason is incredibly simple to understand in the bible, his desires, his emotions, his wants and yet he's always said to be very complex, so he is because we said so. duhh. To the average christian, they are content knowing god did it, not all christians are scientists like LaMatire."

      ~More lies. You do not have enough background information to claim that the average Christian is content with anything as simple as "God did it". Thankfully...not all atheists are you. You are content to make va_gue generalizations upon ppl you do not care for.

      "I also don't understand why people think if they say a specific scientist did or said something, they are above reproach and criticism. Anyone is subject to being questioned, ESPECIALLY scientists. It's hard for me to accept most christian scientist findings because it's premise starts on a foundation I find very unbelievable. Now does it matter what I think? No, not in the long run. If they can verify findings without referencing god and they are peer reviewed and pass that stage I don't have a problem accepting the answer, however if god is added into the question, then I would expect equal proof that god exists in order to accept anything based on that premise. Capiche?"

      ~I would hope that no one would let any scientist off with a free pass. All science should be criticised. The only reason I pointed out LaMatire was to show that the stupid idea that Christians are content with "God did it" is false.
      As for how you feel about Christian Scientists...I think you are going looking at their findings with a closed mind right off the bat. You are judging them as Christians first and scientists last.

      "Next, you said not all believers are this way because of how they were raised. I simply expanded on this point and said that people who are believers are strongly influenced by how they were raised as well as many many people people become believers in either self-actualization, absolution or fear of death. It's healthy to have a fear of death, it's not necessary to have faith to take away that fear. You can cite a couple of people to the contrary just keep in mind there are exceptions to most rule, that does not make the rule invalid."

      ~I am glad you are starting to let go of the absolute mentality you were holding about why someone has a faith.

      "Lastly, so I'm supposed to call god "supernatural" instead of a "magician" because you don't like the term? Don't think thats my problem. Your second part about calling me a twit.....wasn't it you who just said lets keep the ad hominum to a minimum?"

      ~I am merely speaking to you in the manner you seem to respond to. Actually...the term "magic" is incorrect to how Christianity works. Magic is never used in the ancient texts ever to refer to God but was used to describe things not of God. So tell me why that term should be used? Supernatural makes more sense to use but for most atheists out there looking ofr attention, they aren't about making sense as much as trying to make fun a ppl and their faith.

      "The funny part is that you don't find the idea of a talking serpent equally as absurd. If I told you this marsupial that looked like a koala lives in my room, talks like a british man, smokes a pipe and gets really wasted every night are you going to say, "well actually, Koala's are mammals, not marsupials" as if that explains all the subsequent behavior....... You see my point?"

      ~I never gave an opinion on the topic of the talking serpent....plz don't be foolish and create an opinion for me. You can also watch the straw man fallacies while you are at it.

      "As for the image you provided, since that's not how the bible portrays what a serpent looks like, its safe to say that picture means nothing other than apologists trying to make sense of a talking animal....."

      ~It actually has more to do with the concept of Lilith.

      "As for Zombie jesus. The big departure between jesus and your average zombie is that jesus doesn't look like he's decaying like a usual zombie would. Please, show me how the resurrection of a dead body is somehow different for jesus than it is for zombies.... oh yeah, god did it."

      ~That's because he isn't described as being dead after the resurrection. Duh. In all the texts revolving around resurrection...still being dead isn't in the descriptions. If you could show otherwise...then you may have something. In the zombie genre..they are still and always dead. Believing in or not believing in God is irrelevant when using proper language.

      I find this all funny that I have to jusify using proper terminology to atheists. Many on here would would ask what the big deal about calling Jesus a zombie would be screaming their heads off at someone for saying incorrectly that evolution states we came from monkeys.

      November 3, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Enti'za

      Glad you responded! I was beginning to think you would let it hang. Lets get down to brass tax then shall we?

      Discussing past and present. I firstly I see you left out the theocracies in The Vatican City and the rest of the middle east and decided to focus on my comment about Israel (which *Surprise!* I've been to as well through birthright) and why I said it was a jewish theocracy to a degree and not fully blown. Since it's founded as a JEWISH state unlike most countries, this implies that the country is run on jewish principals and not humanist, or political or other ideals which points the finger towards...drumroll please....THEOCRACY!! weeeee!!!

      Next point about Moses. Nice reference with exodus, but moses is told he's seen the back of god but does he go into great detail of what that looks like exactly? Oh and the Zohar I alluded to is a JEWISH text and so is incredibly relevant. in the Zohar god is described as not having a back but faces on all sides, there are some wings thrown in and some other imagery, it's incredibly weird but also very inconsistant with say, the torah and yet both 2 of the top 3 religious texts in judaism....weird I know right?

      Faith in someone loving you is easy to have because if you know a person, a real, tangible person, then its easy to come to the conlusion with reasonable faith that someone loves you or not. Like I've pointed out (3 times now?) faith in god and gods love comes from knowing god indirectly and without evidence of his existance other than a book and unsubstaniated belief. In this case, faith in someone (whether its for them or having faith they love you) and faith in god are two separate things. It's just like claiming that atheists have faith in the big bang theory as if that validates having faith in god because they're the equal when they aren't at all. Do I need to lead you by the nose some more? Also Joe (the guy in a post below) is specifically saying that having blind faith IS a good thing, I wholly disagreed. If you agree that blind faith also should not be celebrated and a virtue then our paths don't cross on this issue.

      You said, "No one is talking about scientists." after pointing out Lamaitre, so I'm confused are we not talking about christian scientists or are we? If we're discussing the average christian, if they are true believers they have to believe that god is real and present in all things, if you disagree and believe that god isn't in all things then there's a bigger issue here than I thought. If you don't like my absolutist statements then don't get angry at me, get angry at the christian rulemakers on that one. I've found more often than not that christians on this board hate being pigeonholed even there are broad statements that should apply (according to christian doctrine) to all christians because they find it distateful to be associated with other christians who spout idiocy with every breath (See: Evoultion is a Lie's posts). Va.gue generalizations might annoy you, but if you think god can't be proven/disproven by science then where did god go? I thought god was supposed to be omnipresent? Shoot, and hear I guess my own idiocy rearing its ugly head again. I thought omnipresent meant god is EVERYWHERE, silly me.

      "The only reason I pointed out LaMatire was to show that the stupid idea that Christians are content with "God did it" is false." What did I say about exceptions to the rule don't invalidate the rule? Silly rabbit. Also I freely admit whenever I hear findings are being presented by a self professed christian scientist I become nervous and close minded specifically because identifying oneself as a christian scientist and not just a scientist means they also have bias. However I will also say that if that same scientist can back up his findings with peer-reviewed evidence and confirmed findings and his methods are valid, I can accept it, even if that evidence proves god, I could come around. What about the other side of the coin when stuff in the bible is proven wrong by an unbeliever, does the same close/openmindedness carry over? No, no it does not.

      As for Magic vs. Supernatural, I have yet to see how the two terms can not be interchangeable. Yes, magic is used in more of a mockery of the bible, but that doesn't make it any less correct. It's also fun to watch believers get all upset because magic is a naughty word when coupled with the bible because people use magical powers for their own benefit whereas jesus was supernatural and used his powers for the benefit of others, is that it? There's a practice in magic called necromancy, raising people from the dead. If I recall, didn't jesus practice a little necromancy on lazurus? Oop, sorry I mean he ressurected him with his supernatural powers, is that better?

      The image of the serpent dealy, sorry to insinuate that you did or did not find the talking serpent ridiculous or not. Do you? Most people who feel the need to correct people who say snake generally do it because they are believers, and I as.sume you are as well so.... I guess the old saying is correct here, when you as.sume you make an as.s out of u and me.

      Lastly for zombie jesus. You have to include all forms of zombies champ. Watch 28 days later, these zombies are still living, breathing people infected with a virus. The resurrected in other movies like Dawn of the dead are resurrected and walk around, spreading the zombie disease and what not, so it's up to you to define what exactly "living" is because zombies are described as "undead", I think jesus falls into this category after his own resurrection as he was dead and then he became undead, the description of him looking like he's living or dead is inconsequential because its safe to say that when someone comes back to life after being dead for 3 days we don't know what exactly is going on within the biology of the body to see if all the organs are actually still working or not.

      Correct terminology is a funny thing though, it seems that when atheists use words like "magic" and "zombie" that can and are easily applied to jesus, christians get angry because its not the terminology they use which makes jesus seem more refined. Why is that? Is it because when phrased slightly different it uncovers some of the ridiculousness of this religious story and lays it bare?

      November 3, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Grrr..I want to ring cnn's neck. They said they put up my post but didn't. Ok..maybe later I'll get back to it.

      November 3, 2011 at 5:17 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Ok..quickie version because I don't want to try and rewrite it all again.
      Israel is not a theocracy because they have freedom of religion in their constuti_tution. That and only aboyr 12% would call themselves religious.
      The vatican doesn't sujugate anyone in their little realm so their was no point in discussing them
      The ME isn't Christian and that's what the topic was about.
      The topic was about God being invisible. I referenced in the text where he was seen. That's all I had to do.
      Zohar's writings are not Jewish canon (Tanakh). Unless we have to include all religious writings by any Jewish ppl. If so, let's include Rabbi Heschel. He is a good writer.
      Those of religious background feel directly connected to God. Who are you to tell them they are not when you feel a direct connection to one that you think loves you? You both have about the same amount of faith I would imagine.
      As to the scientists, I just put that one up to show that religious thought does not hinder scientific ideas. That is shared to all those that are religious.
      There is no rule that says those of faith cannot think logically or in a scientific manner. More importantly, there is no evidence.
      It's about intent. Using correct terminology shouldn't have to be justified. Whether it's correcting those that want to say we come from monkeys to those that would use zombie to describe Jesus...they are wrong and their stupidity is like evil...it must be confronted and corrected.
      As for Jesus..he is described as alive and never undead. So again..you are wrong.

      November 3, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
    • Entil'za

      Ok..quickie version because I don't want to try and rewrite it all again.
      Israel is not a theocracy because they have freedom of religion in their constuti_tution. That and only aboyr 12% would call themselves religious.
      The vatican doesn't sujugate anyone in their little realm so their was no point in discussing them
      The ME isn't Christian and that's what the topic was about.
      The topic was about God being invisible. I referenced in the text where he was seen. That's all I had to do.
      Zohar's writings are not Jewish canon (Tanakh). Unless we have to include all religious writings by any Jewish ppl. If so, let's include Rabbi Heschel. He is a good writer.
      Those of religious background feel directly connected to God. Who are you to tell them they are not when you feel a direct connection to one that you think loves you? You both have about the same amount of faith I would imagine.
      As to the scientists, I just put that one up to show that religious thought does not hinder scientific ideas. That is shared to all those that are religious.
      There is no rule that says those of faith cannot think logically or in a scientific manner. More importantly, there is no evidence.
      It's about intent. Using correct terminology shouldn't have to be justified. Whether it's correcting those that want to say we come from monkeys to those that would use zombie to describe Jesus...they are wrong and their stupidity is like evil...it must be confronted and corrected.
      As for Jesus..he is described as alive and never undead. So again..you are wrong..

      November 3, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
  17. I'm The Best!

    "Of course god exists, just think, if the chemical composition of the earth was just slightly different, there would be no earth quakes or tsunamis. And most likely fewer tornadoes and hurricanes"

    Theists make me laugh.

    November 2, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • Chuckles

      I love how necessary it is to think completely as.sbackwards in order to insert god into making sense of our surroundings. This quote though is a gem.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
  18. Our God Rains and Snows and Earthquakes

    God is a nasty bast-ard and likes to send natural disasters at us. What an ass-hole.

    November 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      The way you talk about him, you haven't seen anything yet. God is your protector, he has not totally removed his hand from you yet or you wouldn't be so brazen with cussing him, you would be on your face begging for his help.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • Loch Ness Monster

      @OGR – can I get about tree fitty?

      November 2, 2011 at 3:46 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Loch Ness Monster........sorry don't speak loch ness.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:15 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      OGR neglected to take their meds today...religious nuts like this are the real worlds version of schizophrenics.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:54 pm |
    • Yaz

      truth, im so glad you remembered me last night

      November 3, 2011 at 10:11 am |
  19. I'm The Best!

    @ our god reins,
    A brief explanation of what everyone else is trying to say is if I tell a prophesy that the president will someday throw a pie at a reporter and the next president really wants this to come true then he'll make it come true.

    This is the same principal as you've been talking about. These people wanted these prophesies to come true so they made them happen

    November 2, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      Just thought I would attempt to clarify.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Sorry, that makes too much sense and is way too clear for OGR to understand. Try inserting a little more crazy absolutism into it.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Well you stay down here then and laugh your head off. May want to look at the news once and a while, nothing too funny out there right now.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:10 pm |
    • Ohplz

      "May want to look at the news once and a while, nothing too funny out there right now."

      Oh plz, give it a rest already! It's only because we now have global communication we know about the rest of the world. Guess what same type of shit different day, it's how it has been throughout history and the world did not come to an end.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Ohplz – go get back under your protective little rock.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @OGR

      Please point out in the news about all the good deeds and acts that are being done in the news also. Can't find that much? I guess we have to immediatly as.sume that no good (or very little good) is happening in the world. It couldn't be that good doesn't grab as many headlines as bad or that bad is embellished to be even worse, that would be crazy talk. The bible said bad things would happen and bad things are happening now so the bible is visionary!

      November 2, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      chuckles – no it's the bad ones they hide. like beheading 14 year old christian girls, and the satanist setting a teenage girl on fire, and halloween parties ending in blood baths. They push they good stuff to try and distract people like your from what is really happening and it works.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      Ohplz is right though. Try watching only local news for a while, especially if you live in a small town. It's usually all good news. All the bad stuff is from the large news orgs because they can cover anywhere and bad news gets good ratings

      November 2, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • Chuckles

      OGR

      BAHAHAHAHAHAH Really? I mean.... REALLY? thats it, the big media companies are doing stories on warm and happy stories about famine in africa, war, death and so on to cover up the REALLY bad stuff that apparently happens in your own head. Keep up the good fight OGR!

      November 2, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • Loch Ness Monster

      OGR – "and the satanist setting a teenage girl on fire, and halloween parties ending in blood baths. They push they good stuff to try and distract people like your from what is really happening and it works."

      Holy crap. Every time you say something ridiculous, I'm gonna need about tree fitty. Gonna be rich by the end of the day.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
  20. hippypoet

    this is for you OUR GOD REIGNS

    imagine learning your religion as a grown man...do you think it would still ring as true to your adult ears? I am a very learned person, i have studied everything can find about the bible or stuff pertaining to the bible or biblical people. I don't believe in god, however i can never know for sure until i die, but one of logic must admitt to the lunacy of belief in something to that end. It makes no sense in the realm of the world we live in. Now if ones argument is that god is outside our understanding, well this logic pretty much says that there can be others that also live outside our understanding...and so god is just another creature in its realm of existence, and so – not so special...but all this is an attempt to understand what i don't believe anyway – something i did a long time ago. I use to play thought games with myself to test theories – Replace your god with anything and the story is the same therefore the IDEA of god is whats important, not the (if there is any) truth to god's existence. The fact that god as a creature of non existence is more powerful then a persons own brain is a sign of insanity. They are talking to nothing – equal to talking to the easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa... So whats the real, true purpose of believing if one has already sinned by simply being alive? if you are destined to burn or walk with god there is no real moral ground to stand on...a.k.a. do what you want! the message of joshua who everyone else ignorantly calls jesus was to love one another and treat others with respect. People say they follow his teachings yet fall to the bible for answers when jesus himself said to know the scriptures... more then half of all scriptures are not found in the bible so these people are not very good at following. The small minds are happy not knowing, and so the truth of whats not in the bible doesn't concern these people. And the rewriting of the bible by monks for years has given us the most beautiful works of art ever, when the press came out, that ended – but the monks had there way too, if you read the early early bibles like that of Ethiopia they are the oldest and best sources for true biblical info...the bibles of even the middle ages don't size up to it...they, the monks, have added and taken away from it what they deemed to be either too erotic, heretical, or just plain crude...it can be seen in measuring each monasteries form of there bibles as they have rewritten them over the years to other ones written by other monks. Ok, i guess what i am saying is that worshipping god from bible leaves too many questions, and worship the god from the OT but without the use of the bible leaves me to wonder what you base your beliefs off of. Oh and i don't consider the new testament the bible, only the OT because the NT is just stories of the supposed jesus, even thou in john the events differ a great deal when compared to the other gospels.

    OT = Old Testament

    NT = New Testament

    ENJOY IT, and lets debate, unless your not up to it? cause that i would totally understand being as du-mb as you are!

    November 2, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
    • Jim

      Hi hippypoet,
      You weren't addressing me, but there are some similarities to the previous debate we had.
      First, I'll address your comment about the logic behind belief in a deity. Logic is entirely subjective. That means, depending on who you are determines what you find logical. Unfortunately, the opinion that the Bible is not what it claims to be can be argued as both a logical and cynical point of view. Either is going to end up as a draw. This pretty much covers your opinion regarding the existence of God and the faculties of anyone who does, leaving that as a moot opinion.
      Second, you continue to press the lie that people are falsely calling Jesus "Jesus". I was hoping I'd addressed that, and, even though the other fellow was rough around the edges, he addressed it well too, to say that transliteration of his name is not an issue. In fact, if you ask me, it's a bit of a ridiculous point to get stuck on due to the shaky ground, but if that's a hill you are willing to die on, be my guest.
      Finally, you seem to have done some research on the history of transcribing the Scriptures, especially in regards to the NT. Fortunately we have the DSS to compare the OT to and find that few mistakes in transcribing have occurred and none to affect the spiritual message of the scriptures. Guess what the majority of mistakes have been in regards to... numbers. Translating/transcribing numbers has been notoriously difficult, but thankfully, they don't change the meaning, intent, or purpose behind the scriptures. They can also be explained through the use of perspective. I'm not going to argue the authenticity of scriptures with someone who places no authority in them. You're probably better off ignoring anything I have to say on that matter and focus on the other aspects of my argument.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:51 pm |
    • JoeProfet

      hippypoet, you are learned in your own wisdom and conceits is all. Pretty much all of the rhetoric posted was proof in my mind that you are not a man of substance. You can ONLY survive based on your six senses, which is very shallow of a human being and you have no depth. That depth comes from having faith. I will never be able to put in any words in order for you to grasp the concept of what faith is, or how it works because you have already written off the one and only book that defines it. It doesn't take one ounce of faith to only believe in what you see, hear, smell, taste or touch. Not one. That a monkey can do and you become not much more than a monkey if that is your ONLY source of being. Stepping out on faith is being able to embrace the unknown. Very difficult to explain unless you've exercised your faith. Otherwise, that which was given to you in your beginning has already been dwindled down to nothing, and you are, as the article suggests, understandably terrified. I understand, it will be OK, don't worry...just have faith!

      November 2, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @ Joe

      What breaks my heart is that you think having faith is a virtue, of which I don't blame you, society has instilled within us the idea that having faith is a good thing. This is different than having faith in someone real, like believing someone will succeed in an endeavor for no other reason other than hope is admirable. However, it's widely exagerated and very sad to see someone write the shallowness comes from not believing in something unsubstantiated. Depth and meaning is only there when someone assigns depth and meaning to a given thing, place, person etc..., a book doesn't have to be present to do that Joe, just remember that and don't glorify ignorance in any capacity just because you think having faith is a good thing.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:57 pm |
    • warmesTghosT

      Joe – you claim that faith is the ability to embrace the unknown – but according to your faith (I assume you are a christian) you already know everything you need to about god and the afterlife and the origins of creation. It is the atheists who admit they do not know and therefore seek truth – you believe you have already found it and therefore no more searching is necessary.

      November 2, 2011 at 2:58 pm |
    • hippypoet

      thank you Jim, that was exactly the reply i was hoping for... i do the whole jesus wasn't his name bit because it throws off a lot of people and is a tool to separate the angry from the intelligent... as you can see in JOEPROPHET'S post...now your statement on the numbers – agree however in ancient languages, numbers , each number has a word and meaning that goes with it... so the numbers changing can be the biggest thing even thou to us it isn't a big. And i was kinda hoping that someone was going to argue the authenticity of the scriptures because they are something of a mystery and need to be looked at with unbaised eyes... so that counts us both out – but discussing them can make for a very interesting convo. AS far as the DSS they do offer up an exact view of what the world was like then and how they saw what was happening around them. They books we have in the bible and those from the dead sea are almost perfectly the same but we are missing alot of pages from the DSS so one can only guess at the ends...however the books from the bible show us how they might have ended, so we can if only to test theories cut and paste to finish off some of the missing pages – now if you are using them to validate the bible you will find that most of the books found with the DSS are those that were denied from the bible in the 300's a.d. at the council. So one really has to have a pre-existing knowledge of said books separate from those in the bibe to fulling understand those of the Dead sea. And another point i would like to touch on is the fact that most of these ancient authors were under the impression that the end times were those they were living thru, much like today – not much as changed! as for the logic aspect, i think there is plenty of rational reasons one needs a god figure, but i was looking at the figure of god from the side of the creation, as if he was real and outside our understanding – i came to the idea of if he is outside our understanding then why not other creatures with him? And that was my real big idea, that if god does exist, he may not be all that important. Just like a child screwing with ants, to the ants thats the god of either evil or good – and they don't have anyway of proof or disproof of existence, nor any knowledge of how many gaints there really may be.

      to joeprophet – shut up. LOL

      November 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • TheTooth

      @Jim

      My brain broke when you said ...Logic is entirely subjective...

      November 2, 2011 at 3:18 pm |
    • Observer

      Faith is what people have when they walk down the church aisle in front of all their family and friends and stand at the altar and swear to God that they will stay married "until death do us part".

      Flip a coin to guess how it works out.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Faith in God not people. Big difference.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:24 pm |
    • Observer

      "Faith in God not people. Big difference."

      If you have faith that you are standing in front of God and making promises, then not keeping them shows just how much faith in God you really had.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Our God Reigns, so you can post but just not where your own stupidity becomes apparent? i asked in the first line of the original post that this was for you... did you read it? if so lets debate... btw, so far, you haven't answered a single person in any way but to give them useless trivia not pretaining to the question or main topic!

      November 2, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Again you are talking about people, not God.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
    • hippypoet

      discuss the post, or shoo... here it is again for your ease...

      imagine learning your religion as a grown man...do you think it would still ring as true to your adult ears? I am a very learned person, i have studied everything can find about the bible or stuff pertaining to the bible or biblical people. I don't believe in god, however i can never know for sure until i die, but one of logic must admitt to the lunacy of belief in something to that end. It makes no sense in the realm of the world we live in. Now if ones argument is that god is outside our understanding, well this logic pretty much says that there can be others that also live outside our understanding...and so god is just another creature in its realm of existence, and so – not so special...but all this is an attempt to understand what i don't believe anyway – something i did a long time ago. I use to play thought games with myself to test theories – Replace your god with anything and the story is the same therefore the IDEA of god is whats important, not the (if there is any) truth to god's existence. The fact that god as a creature of non existence is more powerful then a persons own brain is a sign of insanity. They are talking to nothing – equal to talking to the easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa... So whats the real, true purpose of believing if one has already sinned by simply being alive? if you are destined to burn or walk with god there is no real moral ground to stand on...a.k.a. do what you want! the message of joshua who everyone else ignorantly calls jesus was to love one another and treat others with respect. People say they follow his teachings yet fall to the bible for answers when jesus himself said to know the scriptures... more then half of all scriptures are not found in the bible so these people are not very good at following. The small minds are happy not knowing, and so the truth of whats not in the bible doesn't concern these people. And the rewriting of the bible by monks for years has given us the most beautiful works of art ever, when the press came out, that ended – but the monks had there way too, if you read the early early bibles like that of Ethiopia they are the oldest and best sources for true biblical info...the bibles of even the middle ages don't size up to it...they, the monks, have added and taken away from it what they deemed to be either too erotic, heretical, or just plain crude...it can be seen in measuring each monasteries form of there bibles as they have rewritten them over the years to other ones written by other monks. Ok, i guess what i am saying is that worshipping god from bible leaves too many questions, and worship the god from the OT but without the use of the bible leaves me to wonder what you base your beliefs off of. Oh and i don't consider the new testament the bible, only the OT because the NT is just stories of the supposed jesus, even thou in john the events differ a great deal when compared to the other gospels.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:32 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      hippypoet..........I did reply and it didn't post? here we go.........Yes I would have more faith as an adult because I would need more faith. I would have the trials and tests of life that would cause me to need Him. Children don't usually face the problems adults do. You may be learned but you are only as learned as He allows, and no matter, without Him is means nothing. You can know for sure but it takes faith and it makes perfect sense, this life without Him makes no sense. Do you think we are no more than creatures put on earth to please our selfishness. I'm not. There are others, they are servants of Satan, and that choice is yours. He seeks to destroy you and God seeks to give you life eternal. Not a hard choice for me. You were correct when you believed and a part of you still believes and is searching for what is missing in you life and that is a relationship with your creator. You will never be satisfied until you have found him. I walk by faith and not by sight. I can not see God, but I feel him and I talk to him and he hears me and talks to me through the Holy Spirit. If this is insanity and if you are right and there if nothing else, in your world my existence is useless, so I'll take insanity cause my life has purpose and meaning and a destiny. Salvation is a gift from God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ which washes your sins away if you will only believe. It doesn't mean I can do what I want, he says repent, "turn from" sin. The message is all have sinned and come short the glory of God and only through his sacrifice can we be saved. All our attempts at righteousness are as filthy rags. Yes we should read the word and do our best to know it, but not everyone has the ability to do that as others can. It is not a requirement for Salvation to memorize the entire bible. I don't know what bible you are reading by I prefer KJV OT and NT. It is incomplete without both. The OT told of Jesus' coming in the NT. Together they fulfill prophecy and the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Your insults don't phase me cause I know my destiny and my worth does not lie in what you think about me, it lies in who God created me to be. I'm for his glory not yours.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • hippypoet

      thats more like it... what makes you think that the king james VERSION is the right one? the correct one? and please argue this which was part of my post but i think you missed it..
      Now if ones argument is that god is outside our understanding, well this logic pretty much says that there can be others that also live outside our understanding...and so god is just another creature in its realm of existence, and so – not so special...but all this is an attempt to understand what i don't believe anyway – something i did a long time ago. I use to play thought games with myself to test theories – Replace your god with anything and the story is the same therefore the IDEA of god is whats important, not the (if there is any) truth to god's existence. The fact that god as a creature of non existence is more powerful then a persons own brain is a sign of insanity.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm |
    • Entil'za

      "What breaks my heart is that you think having faith is a virtue, of which I don't blame you, society has instilled within us the idea that having faith is a good thing."

      Yeah..just like Chuckles faith that someone loves him. Such faith is foolish and should be driven out of our species fully.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • Jim

      @hippypoet,
      Your take on philosophy? Honestly, the debate against religion and the existence of God could easily be made against philosophy on the grounds that wisdom, like faith is entirely debatable. Why do so many take to childish arguments when it comes to religion and philosophy (example: animal ethics- both sides). There's no wrong answer- people take to childish arguments because they have failed to establish their philosophy as their own. That is the reason it is so difficult to alter the ideology of an atheist and a Christian for both the educated and uneducated. For the educated, the reasoning is so deep and their study and ownership of that philosophy is so integrated into who they are, it's near impossible to change them. For the uneducated, they blindly and foolishly open their mouths to spew out nonsense and because they believe it, it's near impossible for them to change. I have met my fair share of uneducated Christians AND atheists, as I'm sure you have. For me, my only hope and prayer is that God does the work I can't possibly do due to those deeply held beliefs on the other side of the table.

      November 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • Loch Ness Monster

      @OGR – "Your insults don't phase me cause I know my destiny and my worth does not lie in what you think about me, it lies in who God created me to be. I'm for his glory not yours."

      Then for the love of all that's holy, please stop yammering about it and go do something else. You already know where you're going, you don't care what anyone else says – sounds like a wrap.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:03 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Entil'za

      "Yeah..just like Chuckles faith that someone loves him. Such faith is foolish and should be driven out of our species fully."
      So you want to play, is that it? Or do you like make snide comments on the sidelines because you can't play with the big boys? It's ok kiddo, this might work within your own social circle where people are too nice not to tell you how pathetic you are, but it doesn't really work ehre.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      hippypoet.......Because it has been proven the be the closest english translation of the oritinal greek and hebrew.
      His ways are higher than our way, we can't know more than our creator or nowhere near as much as he know, but we can have a relationship with him. Just as a professor and student can. You may never know all your professor knows but you can still have a relationship with him. Yes I said there are others. They are called fallen angels, their leader is Satan, he is one of God's creations. Another of his creations, Michael, cast him out of Heaven for his rebellion against God and for trying to be like God. You know, what humans are presently doing. He is special because he is the creator of all things! The others are want to bes. It's simple, you don't have go play thought games, just have faith and realize that you were chosen by God for this time and this place and that he loves you. Let go of your human reasoning and listen to your heart, not your head. The story can have a happy ending or a miserable one. That is up to you, he made the way and he gave you free will to choose. When you reap the consequences that is on you.
      November 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm | Report abuse |

      November 2, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Jim, i completely agree with that... i mean up untill the end there. but thats me, the non believer. i find that philosophy is a great tool to have but only seems to be used when talking to people less then par intelligence. It makes the person who said it appear smart, and also makes the person being talked to feel dumb, therefore less likely to keep the rational thought and move to anger – again, its all tools to be used at the right or wrong time. Now i use philosophy all the time and people say i sound conceited for it. I have found that without the power to ask why, how, who, and when.../ one is missing a great deal and that so called small stuff makes a big difference. But i have to ask, what childish tacitcs were used and by who, i might have been to blame. sry. i do that thou.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @Chuckles- "So you want to play, is that it? Or do you like make snide comments on the sidelines because you can't play with the big boys? It's ok kiddo, this might work within your own social circle where people are too nice not to tell you how pathetic you are, but it doesn't really work ehre."

      I am sorry...what are you upset about? Was it the specific faith I referenced? I thought by your comments any faith was bad. If that's not what you meant, plz be more specific which faith is good and which is not. I am sure you are up to that task.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:16 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Jim i seem to have missed the fact that your first sentence was actually a question... sry. My philosophy is ... i may need some time so i will post this that way you know i am thinking abuot how to word it then i will post it...shortly i hope.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • Our God Reigns

      Loch Ness Monster-take your own advice. you've said nothing of worth and that a wrap for you.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
    • Jim

      @hippypoet,
      General statement regarding childish acts.
      But according to philosophy, you are a believer, a believer of your own philosophy. Therefore, back to the logic of it, your argument can be labeled as both the logic of your philosophy or cynicism (in that you, by assumption, have determined that because there is no external proof of what Jesus may or may not have said while alive on earth, there is no reason to believe it's true. Because of the perception of inadequate proof of the Scriptures, you have accepted the philosophically illogical conclusion that they are not authentic, otherwise known as cynicism. It follows the, "if a tree falls" philosophical conundrum). My argument is that you can't possibly use logic as an argument against the existence of God, faith, Christianity, etc. It is too flawed.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Entil'za

      I said "This is different than having faith in someone real, like believing someone will succeed in an endeavor for no other reason other than hope is admirable." Reading comprehension is not your strong suit......

      November 2, 2011 at 4:32 pm |
    • hippypoet

      ok i got it... my philosophy is a combo of that from school house rock – knowledge is power and from the j man himself – treat others how you wish to be treated. There is no greater authority then your own. One must take full ownership and responiblity for anything and everything you did or said. Most importantly, when meeting new people never ever show disrespect unless you are dispresceted first, and then and only then do you have the right to put the disprespect on display and view it so to ask why you were insulted. However, once you have met them and they are known to you for what they are about, treat them as they do you – like my mother in-law, she is a piece of sh!t, who treats me like a piece of sh!t....i show her no respect at all, i only say things i know go completely over her head making her feel dumb and thereby shortening the length of time we spend together – its my way of not being outright rude and causing another fight. I don't believe in respecting your elders on the basis that they are older then you. People gain wisdom and knowledge by doing things and learning from them – not just because they have lived 20 more years more then me – more years on you means only that you had the time to learn but didn't and that is in my opinion actually worthy showing a lack of respect for instead of blank respect! these are things i will teach my kids, but only if they ask. if they don't ask, then they will learn from pure experience, only after they fall do i help, but they still need to ask.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • hippypoet

      Jim, i see what your saying now... ok so let me change how i worded it to avoid such things...

      Now if ones argument is that god is outside our understanding, well this argument pretty much says that there can be others that also live outside our understanding...and so god is just another creature in its realm of existence, and so – not so special...

      i completely agree with your stance on using logic to argue religion... however, i often use the other persons "logic" to argue against there point of view... so i will swap out the word logic for the word argument, or stance.... all of which are words i use in place of one another but for the sake of having a debate over word usage i will change it.
      AND i have never said that the Scriptures are not authentic, i only argue the message they carry. triing to say that they weren't written when carbon dating places them is rather silly.

      November 2, 2011 at 4:44 pm |
    • Entil'za

      @Chuckles- "I said "This is different than having faith in someone real, like believing someone will succeed in an endeavor for no other reason other than hope is admirable." Reading comprehension is not your strong suit......"

      But your faith that someone loves you isn't about someone real. It's about a real person giving you love. But that isn't true.
      The faith that someone loves you is not an endeavor.

      As to the hope....why is a religious person's hope any different that your hope that someone loves you?
      It is my guess that you don't really know a great deal on the topic of faith. Maybe I just caught you on a bad day.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:21 pm |
    • Jim

      @hippypoet,- since I forgot to hit reply
      I'm not addressing the use of philosophical logic to argue religion; I'm arguing that logic is not a proper defense of a position when it comes to philosophy. The common claim made by atheists is that they are the logical ones in the argument. Well logical according to whom? If you want to argue logic in mathematics, go all for it, I know some computer engineers that would love to have a go, but if you want to argue religion/philosophy, a person can't claim their logic is sounder than another person's because logic is based on an interpretation of circ.mstances. I get quite tired, frankly, of seeing this argument. To even claim scientifically there is no God is an interpretation and a leap based on evidence and it then crosses into the realm of philosophy. It's unavoidable.

      November 2, 2011 at 6:23 pm |
    • hippypoet

      christians are such idiots. you think your going to convince anyone that the stupid crap bible is the truth?

      November 2, 2011 at 7:44 pm |
    • hippypoet

      sry about the childish comments, they are by some weakminded thief! oh stealer of names, why do you choose me to be your victim?

      November 2, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • Ohio Paul

      All of these long posts are giving me a headach. In the past, the almost all educated people were either part of the aristocracy or the Church. Because of this, almost 100% (everyone) "believed" what they were told by the people in power. This included the idea of Heaven and Hell. Ever since common people have started to be more educated, there are more and more atheistic thinkers...imagine that? At first, religion was a threat to the people in power, then they saw an opportunity to expolit religion by intimidation and dogma, by scaring people into believing that if they don't comply, God will send them to Hell, or worse. What amazes me is that it is the 21st Century and instead of using religion for a guide to being a better person and fellowship, people still believe the stories made up hundreds and thousands of years ago to scare people into believing.

      November 10, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.