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 A series of recent conferences have cast a light on gay Catholics and their families.
November 8th, 2011
12:22 PM ET
My Take: Why good Catholics are challenging church line on homosexuality
By Patrick Hornbeck , Special to CNN The Roman Catholic Church has long been a reliable source for one-dimensional storylines: Victims of sexual abuse call for justice. Parishes close as numbers of clergy plummet. Rosary-clad Catholics protest outside abortion clinics. Perhaps nowhere has the storyline seemed more clear-cut than with regard to the church’s treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and their relationships. Official Catholic teachings describe gay or lesbian orientation as “an objective disorder” and tell those who love their same-sex partners that they possess a “tendency… toward an intrinsic moral evil.” Catholic bishops have been public advocates for laws banning same-sex marriage, and some have sought to prevent LGBT Catholics and their allies from fully participating in the Church’s rituals and activities But neither formal teachings nor bishops’ statements tell the whole story. A series of recent conferences at American colleges reveals the breadth of Catholic approaches to issues of sexual diversity. The conferences, part of an effort called More than a Monologue, have happened at two Catholic universities and two non-denominational divinity schools The events conclusively show that American Catholics are hardly of one mind, nor in lockstep with their bishops, when it comes to same-sex marriage; to rights for LGBT people at home, at work, and in church; or to the ongoing campaign against anti-gay bullying in schools. At Fordham University in New York, a Catholic school, a proud mother of a grown gay son drew a standing ovation when she told a story about discovering the effect of church teachings on her child. Here’s that mother, Deb Word, who has founded a group Fortunate Families to help Catholic families with lesbian daughters and gay sons, in her own words: Fast forward to a family vacation in the Gulf. There were five of us floating—Sean and his wife, Chris, and his dad and me, holding onto each other’s rafts. And I said, ‘I think this is what Heaven is like.’ And Christopher said quietly, “except I won’t be there with you.” “Son, where do you get this stuff?” “Mom, it’s your club. You know the rules.” And if my cradle Catholic child, growing up in a loving family, got this message, then what does Catholic mean in more conservative homes? … And I wonder, why do I stay in a club that my son says is dangerous to his soul?” Another panelist at the event described the freedom she feels as a result of living, within the church’s rules, as a celibate lesbian. A third, a physician in New York City, praised the Catholic tradition for its emphasis on human dignity and social justice, but added: “I am troubled by the fact that I find greater acceptance of myself as a whole person in my professional community as a physician, than I do in the official hierarchy of the church of my family, my childhood, and my life.” At the same time, he refused to let the church off the hook for the part he accuses it of playing in tacitly condoning the bullying of LGBT youth. Last month, at Yale University, a Catholic layman who teaches psychiatry spoke movingly of his attempt to offer church leaders the wisdom of his scientific field, and of his bitter disappointment when his offers were met with silence. And at Connecticut ’s Fairfield University, scholars, clergy, and lay Catholics recently discussed the implications for the church of having many gay and lesbian people, both in and out of the closet, in roles as priests and ministers. These public events have brought into the light the struggles, compromises and choices about meaning and love that many Catholics experience daily. Poll numbers show that while many of their bishops have been stepping up their rhetoric on the issue, only one-in-three American Catholics describe opposition to same-sex marriage as “very important.” Seventy percent support legal recognition for same-sex couples. All of us, Catholic or not, LGBT or not, owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to keep these new conversations going. Let’s not to settle for only part of the story. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Patrick Hornbeck. soundoff (2,880 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor's Note: Patrick Hornbeck is an assistant professor and associate chair for undergraduate studies at Fordham University.
I don't see anyone addressing the central issue here. Why does the LGBT community even wish to be part of the Catholic church? It is contrary to their beliefs. It doesn't make sense. It sounds like they are simply trying to push their agenda not only on the general public now but as well as religous groups. All are welcome in the Catholic church as it prides itself as being a 'Universal" church. We accept sinners just like Christ did but, just as Christ did, we ask that members try to go forth and 'sin no more'. If there's no intention to 'sin no more' then why belong to a group who's teachng is contrary to one's belief? Sounds like the LGBT community is simply doing this as a political ploy and has no spiritual or religous intent. The author didn't make a lot of coherent points and wrote this very poorly.
Having children may be a good start for the gay men. Children of lesbians wants fathers. There is a site DonorPride that offers that.
Can you not see how someone who is gay might actually be spiritual and feel that the Catholic church is the right place to express that spirituality, while disagreeing with one tenant of the faith?
Would you deny someone the expression of their belief?
And when you consider that the church's stance on other things has changed over the years, is it not relatively reasonable that their stance on this will likewise change as the evidence continues to pile up that s-e-xual orientation is driven by factors beyond the control of the individual?
just some historic events that formed the message of your so called savior –
The Buddha, born 563 b.c.
Zoroasterianism – creation of religion – 500 b.c. possibly even as early as 1400 b.c.e
before jesus came around Abraham's god was mean and anger, jelous and spiteful...but thats not the god jesus preached about...his message was nearly exactly like that of another great preacher – the first Buddha – he spoke about the evils of material wealth and to love one another and to show compassion to all people...Shortly after the Buddha there was a spiritual happening going down in Persia, the Movement was started with a man named Zarathruster – greek translation Zoroaster – the religion that stemed from it...Zoroasterianism, the basic tenets are One great good all powerful god and the evil enemy...no other religion has an enemy of god like Zoroaster did...the first monotheistict religion was Abraham, but the first devil figure was Zoroaster's enemy of god...
everything above is based on historic events and facts which can be proven...
this is my view on the above statement –
so with the good vs. evil gods and the message of love and compassion jesus had the perfect scam...then he died... oops!
jesus is a thief and a lier. He combined Jewish mysticism and eastern philosphy and then claimed to be the son of god – that takes balls!
this is an argument that states jesus was nothing like that of the modern day image of him! hell the man was most likely black with nappy hair, but all the white folk swear he is white too – didn't god form us in his image or was it the other way around!??!!
source – http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html here under the timeline page it states and elsewhere that Zoroaster may have actually lived even further into the past then i state -around 1400 or 1200 b.c. – and thats before moses!
and so just you know, Zororasterianism is still around and kicking stronge!
you're such a tough guy, you'll get your chance to tell him to his face, bet you'll be backtracking then.
Budda is a FALSE RELIGION!!! Christ is the NAME above all names and the only way we have and can get salvation.
REALLY? thats the best you got for an alternitive argument against mine... how is it that you people are still around? Why haven't you died off yet? I pose an excellent argument using historic facts and events that are from before the time of jesus...
If you claimed to know something like the existence of radiation, and you claimed to be the person who found it, do you think in todays world peopel who believe you or would they know about the lovely find that killed its founder, 200 years before you were even born? This is the same thing, just because you really really want jesus and god to be real doesn't make it so, and not being able to provide any argument against mine is proof of you willingness to be lead with hopes and dreams, thats a childs game! Adults play with facts and proof and or has much evidence as possible. For jesus being a thief, there is much proof, for jesus being the son of god or even simply rose from the dead – nothing but "faith"... well i have faith that when you die, the world will not morn your passing, just say "i hope he is in a better place"
You really believe that? First you are correct concerning when certain religion came into being, but that is it. Three of the most important people (Moses, Abraham and Jesus) in the Bible and there no corresponding evidence to even support that these people even existed.
Stephen F Roberts: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Atheism is not a religion nor is it a belief.
When will man realize that they cannot change God so they can live any lifestyle they want?
When idiots like you will realize that your "God" is a figment of your imagination.
John – there is much more proof of my God than the the lack of which that you support.
@Dean: No. There really isn't.
Please provide this proof of god, Dean. You are apparently the only one who has it, so please share with everyone.
The Catholic church has not changed since the beginning. God/Jesus/Holy spirit developed the rules, NOT the Catholic church! We all have our sins in life weather we've stolen, murdered, etc... If you don't like the Catholic teachings, then that is ok. But it is not right to try to push your "gay rights" on others either. No one is perfect except God himself, and only he can judge us in the end of our life, and at the end of time. Actions have consiquences. Life is not fair. It's that simple. I'm not saying you can't "love thy neighbor" if they're gay, trans, etc. But it is eachother's OWN responsibility to seek Christ, and try to do what is right. If you pray about it, he will help you (even though it may be a tough path) I wish the media would just stop trying to turn everyone against eachother like they do. Catholic will always be persecuted, and I personally choose that path to the end. I hope my fellow Catholics out there take these articles with a grain of salt, and not let it discourage you. God Bless all of you (my brothers and sisters), I mean it. And I'll even ask all of you to pray for me as well.
Self-delusion at its finest. The Church has changed immensely over the years. Or is the Church still burning witches?
Didn't they just run an article about big changes to the catholic mass?
Here you go Scoob. In case you missed it.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/04/mass-confusion/
Amen!!
"No one is perfect except God himself"
Nothing in nature is perfect but you think that a perfect being exists. How can you know this? Throughout this blog we hear believers profess how man is imperfect and flawed. Our bodies are imperfect, our intellect is imperfect, our very souls tainted with imperfection by original sin. Yet somehow a perfect enti.ty who judges us based on the degree of our imperfection is watching us. How does this make any sense whatsoever? And what happens when you reach this holiest of holy places called heaven when you die. Are you then perfect when you are at Gods side? Isn't that the definition of hubris? Honestly your egos need a reality check. Is man flawed? Sure but that doesn't mean an anthropomorphic super being sits in contrast of the human condition. What a ridiculous, baseless assertion.
*** SCOOBY DOO
The Catholic church has not changed since the beginning
You could be burned alive if you believed the planet was round
or the sun did not rotate around the earth.
Thats two examples out of thousands how the church has changed.
would you like to hear more ?
"But it is not right to try to push your "gay rights" on others either. "
"But it is not right to try to push your "gay rights" on others either. "
So the fact that the law protects people against discrimination because of sexual orientation and being gay isn't against the law. The APA and other World organization have gone on record stating being gay is not a mental illness, it's a normal part of human sexuality, and it can't be voluntarily changed shows that they deserve the same rights as straights.
These rights included:
Right to benefits while married:
--employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
--per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
--Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
--sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
--veteran's disability
--Supplemental Security Income
--disability payments for federal employees
--medicaid
--property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
--income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
--wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
o
Joint and family-related rights:
--joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
--joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
--family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
--next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
--custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
--domestic violence intervention
--access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
Court notice of probate proceedings
Domestic violence protection orders
Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
Funeral and bereavement leave
Joint adoption and foster care
Joint tax filing
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Legal status with stepchildren
Making spousal medical decisions
Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
Right of survivorship of custodial trust
Right to change surname upon marriage
Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
Right to inheritance of property
Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
•
For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including:
--Social Security pension
--veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing --home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing
--survivor benefits for federal employees
--survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
--additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
--$100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
--continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
--renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse
--continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
--payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
--making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts
Responsibilities
Spousal income and assets are counted in determining need in many forms of government assistance, including:
--veteran's medical and home care benefits
--housing assistance
--housing loans for veterans
--child's education loans
--educational loan repayment schedule
--agricultural price supports and loans
--eligibility for federal matching campaign funds
Ineligible for National Affordable Housing program if spouse ever purchased a home:
Subject to conflict-of-interest rules for many government and government-related jobs
Ineligible to receive various survivor benefits upon remarriage
Yeah, right, I am going to take my moral lessons from Catholics. I was confirmed Catholic and saw firsthand what a bunch of hypocrites these people are. Why would any thinking person care what any member of this pedophile club has to say about anything?
http://www.cheapthinker.com/2011/11/06/the-day-of-the-devil/
All religions are full of hypocrisy... Not just Catholosism.
Juan, I must differ a bit. Religions are not hypocritical, it is the people that are involved in them that are.
In 500 years this church will be asking forgiveness, like it asks forgivenes now for having opposed Galileo, etc the question is: is it a good force in the world, or a source of hatred , discrimination, and ignorance?
We can answer that definitively now. The Catholic church is obviously a source of hatred , discrimination, and ignorance, as well as systematic hiding of abuse. And I hope you are right, that the remaining people of the world who don't already realize this, realize it before too much more time passes. Hopefully it won't take 500 more years.
Anna: I guess you would rather see two men beating each other to a bloody pulp? That would not be YUK for you eh?
If I had to choose, yes.
The problem with heteros is that they evolve much slower so your choice is understandable.
There is something sick and perverted in a person who would willingly and gladly choose violence over affection.
@myweightinwords
that sick, perverted thing would be religion.
** Really?
If I had to choose, yes.
Must be a Christian.....
Violence is ok....
Love is not.
Jesus wouldn't gay bash.
He was a lefty socialist.
Just sayin'
I guess that's why he said they wouldn't enter Heaven?
You can take your dull Heaven and shove it where the sun don't shine. Along with the rest of your sick god story.
@Really, where exactly did Jesus say ANYTHING about gays?
And that's without getting into the whole idea that the gospels are, at best, hearsay...stories cobbled together decades after the fact from oral histories, thus giving doubt to any actual person haven spoken the EXACT words attributed to him.
You cannot be "gay" and "Catholic" since that would be a sin. Nuff said.
If gay were a choice, I would choose gay over Catholic any day.
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. And if you are Christian, you will hate what God hates. You can not pick and choose what to like out of the Bible. Either you accept it as all truth or don't accept it at all. God doesn't hate the sinner, He hates the sin. God thinks ho-mo-se-xuality is an abomination.
Because Catholics never sin...noooooo...only perfect people can be Catholics.
"Shhhhh, they think they're the only ones up here!"
Is being catholic the sin part?
Being Catholic is the stupid part.
Many people here, and the author take word "catholic" as "believer". People in this blog have no idea what they are talking about. No one read the Bible, but happy to say "aha- believel->cathiolic->pedophile." Educate yourself people, – as Jesus said – "No gay will ever enter my Kingdom" Gays are disgusting to God"
Since there is much more evidence that being gay is innate than there is of any god or afterlife, I guess the real question should be why would any human base discrimination on the will of an imaginary friend?
Not that I'm religious but Jesus himself said "Let ye without sin cast the 1st stone" we are all sinners according to the Bible. So, Why would gay's be excluded from being Catholic???
Catholicism is their religion & the Catholic religion has a lot of loop holes for sinners, I'm just sayin...
Greg, fact of the matter is you cannot be a "priest" and a "pe-do-phile" either!
LOL, Cannot Be!! Nuff said!!
Well put, Dr. Hornbeck. A complex conversation of a complex issue. It is difficult to try and make sense of some scriptural theologies to people that will never quite make sense. The Fordham Theology department is top notch.
Nothing complex to it at all. God doesn't exist and the Catholic doctrine is complete bunk. Next question please.
Not sure if your comment was directed towards the article or Mr. Hornbeck. The bottom line, theology and the practice of religion belongs with the realm of Mythology. The Gods they speak of or the single god currently being used, is no different from the GODS used by the Greeks, Roman and the Egyptians; only the names have change, condition or special ability. The great feats describe in the Bible would not with-stand today’s scientific exam. Sorry it wasn’t true back then and it isn’t true now.
Stephen F Roberts: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Atheism is not a religion nor is it a belief.
I take great offence to the pictures of Gay's kissing on the front page of this web site. I mean why. The subject and picture doesn’t fit. Some one at CNN needs to take a look at what is posted here. I take Offence to this.
Your offence is noted and you can shove it up you know where...
Actually John, we'll leave "shoving things in a n u s e s" to the Gays. I thought they liked that?
I agree, I take offence too! We have that right!
Good for you, Bastone. If you don't like what is posted, you are free to avoid this in the future. Thanks for your input
The subject of the article is gays and Catholicism. The picture is two men, ostensibly gay, kissing with a Christian symbol in the background.
Where is the disparity?
really?: yes, you do have that right. and others have the right not to find it offensive
I take offense to your taking offense. Oh damn, offenseption. But in all seriousness, lighten up. No one should ever take offense to affection and love. That's the best advice I can give.
Rick and thanks for your 2 cents, deep!
every bit as deep as yours, really
Yea man, that picture is friggin GROSS. Two guys all mouth to mouth. I bet they are even flippin tounge all around in there. Saliva mixing around. I bet the short guy is grabbin at some junk too, off camera. He's all like "OMG Harold... I love you soooooo much! Lets move to California and get married. My littlle chili dog "....
What? Problem?
To all those taking offence: No, we are not going to lose any sleep over your offence. All I can suggest is that you try to evolve much faster. You are still amoebas in terms of intelligence.
I just think its disgusting. I would rather kiss the ugliest girl than that unshaved dude.
As a Catholic myself I would never allow the influence of gays in my church. I like to believe that I am a tolerant christian but at some point enough is enough. I would definitely agree with Bastone50 on this one. This picture is offensive and should be removed. For goodness sake! If you choose to believe that you are born this way that's on you. I choose to believe that being gay is by choice. If you don't agree with my opinion then that is your problem and when judgement day comes we will all face our maker.
@Exo: It doesn't matter what you choose to believe...you are wrong and there are studies to prove it...so stop being a bigoted a$$ and learn some acceptance or do you only accept supporting a church that supports pedophiles?
I find pictures of Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann to be utterly offensive, yet these politicians seem to pop up all over the place. I guess in America, the first Amendment trumps personal disgust.
@Truth: lol Pedophiles and perverts. Do yourself a favor and stop bringing up this argument. What people tend to forget is that the church wasn't meant to be perfect. We are all human and the church is run by humans. Therefore sin happens and people make very bad choices. That doesn't mean the church should pay for the few bad seeds, but of course your going put all catholics in this category for the selected few. There are many good things the catholic church does that is easily overlooked. My church goes out of its way to shelter and feed the poor. What have you done lately?
We see that you just had to go out of your way to be offended. Ha. figures!
"Christianity, or Catholicism isn't about judging one another, it about a relationship, plain and simple. God's grace is limitless and true freedom come through trust in Him" This is the way I have viewed the concept of Christianity... But can you tell me why is it that Extremist Christians always try to force everyone else to do what they believe is right... Jesus did teach, Let ye without sin cast the 1st stone, Judge not least ye be judged, & love the sinner not the sin. There are NO Jesus Quotes that say "I love every one but the gay's & non christian's"... funny how you say your a christian/Catholic yet don't follow his teachings...
When an organization has been committing genocide for centuries, it's easy to overlook some of their lesser atrocities.
You mean secular abortionists who have killed tens of millions of children?
If secular abortionists have killed "tens of millions", how many have been miscarried?
Um OK is one of those people who loves fetuses but hates the humans they become.
That photo should have been more multicultural, just like what happens to the new guy in prison.
How can anyone look at that picture and not have their stomach turn!
Absolutely gross!!!!
YUK
@Anna: ONLY YOU AND YOUR DELUSIONAL BIGOTED FRIENDS!
I think it's a very nice photo. I'm not a big fan of public displays of affection, but this one seems quite reserved.
If you don't accept the catholic churches teaching than don't be a member of the catholic church...don't get on our nerves trying to make us feel sorry that you are gay....pray to God, or stay how you are but than don't get mad if your religion does not agree with your instincts
Well said!! Thank you!
sick
only in your deluded mind...for some we call it natural
Can't have a morning on CNN without a troll article made to incite anger at religion. Good job trolling CNN
Boy isn't that the truth, Trolololo?!
Religious hypocrisy makes religion an easy target.
making fun of religious hypocrisy is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and a scope
Cameron, Transubstantiation in NOT symbolic. That is the differentiator of the Catholic faith from Protestant denoms. Catholic doctrine teaches that we receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ at Holy Communion. Other denoms present it as symbolic – unless you are Episcopalian and then you can choose to believe it or not. (Correct me if I'm wrong those of the Episcopal faith.) Just wanted to correct that notion. Thanks.
Eeeew ..... canibalism!
I was brought up the same way. I am glad the youth of today are not as subject to such controlling ways of thinking.
I was born and raised catholic. I constantly questioned their teachings while I was in grade school as some of their beliefs just didn't make logical sense. When a family member of mine came out he was kicked out of the church (he was a priest at the time). Any "god" that doesn't accept someone for who they are, which is a human being, is not a god I wish to worship and I wish more people would feel the same way.
The Catholic faith, as well as all 'true' Christian faiths, love the sinner but hate the sin. If the sinner wishes to continue in their sinful ways and even teach that sin as being good then it would be foolish to keep the sinner in the group until they change their ways. This is just basic behavior...many people are talking about bullying and bullies on this thread. If the bully doesn't stop their distructive/evil/inappropriate behavior then what group would continue to accept them, especially in a teaching position?
God loves everyone, but he will not tolerate those who do immoral things contrary to His law. When something is wrong, it does not matter what you think of it or how you feel about it, it still is wrong. It is called sin. God wants everyone to turn from their sin, but most people don't care about what God thinks anymore.
Then God is a sick **** for creating people gay then decreeing that gay people are contrary to nature.
Unless, of course, it's just people speaking in God's name doing all the trash-talking.
Until the Catholic Church catches up with science, it will continue, sadly, to discriminate against the gay community.
"catches up"?....ROTFLOL
Well I hope it never catches up if that means they have to accept perverts!!
Instead of "catching up with science", maybe people should stop stretching science into territory that is beyond it. Stephen Jay Gould, the Harvard evolutionist is quoted as saying that nature offers no moral data: we have to look to philosophy and theology for moral guidance.
@Anna: Care to explain how you get perverts out of a church accepting people who are gay? Seems to me the church already does that by allowing pedophiles to exists within it or is harming an innocent child less damaging than someone who is naturally born gay?
anna: "accepts perverts"? well, they already shelter pedophiles, if that's what you mean
@anna: No, they don't have to accept bigots like you. Now begone, spawn of Satan! The LORD rebukes thee!
It really depends of your definition of perversion, Anna. Since there is much more evidence that people are born gay than there is evidence of any god, I think that the greatest perversion is using your imaginary friend as an excuse to discriminate against and hate others.