November 8th, 2011
12:22 PM ET
My Take: Why good Catholics are challenging church line on homosexuality
Editor's Note: Patrick Hornbeck is an assistant professor and associate chair for undergraduate studies at Fordham University.
By Patrick Hornbeck , Special to CNN
The Roman Catholic Church has long been a reliable source for one-dimensional storylines: Victims of sexual abuse call for justice. Parishes close as numbers of clergy plummet. Rosary-clad Catholics protest outside abortion clinics.
Perhaps nowhere has the storyline seemed more clear-cut than with regard to the church’s treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and their relationships.
Official Catholic teachings describe gay or lesbian orientation as “an objective disorder” and tell those who love their same-sex partners that they possess a “tendency… toward an intrinsic moral evil.”
Catholic bishops have been public advocates for laws banning same-sex marriage, and some have sought to prevent LGBT Catholics and their allies from fully participating in the Church’s rituals and activities
But neither formal teachings nor bishops’ statements tell the whole story.
A series of recent conferences at American colleges reveals the breadth of Catholic approaches to issues of sexual diversity.
The conferences, part of an effort called More than a Monologue, have happened at two Catholic universities and two non-denominational divinity schools
The events conclusively show that American Catholics are hardly of one mind, nor in lockstep with their bishops, when it comes to same-sex marriage; to rights for LGBT people at home, at work, and in church; or to the ongoing campaign against anti-gay bullying in schools.
At Fordham University in New York, a Catholic school, a proud mother of a grown gay son drew a standing ovation when she told a story about discovering the effect of church teachings on her child.
Here’s that mother, Deb Word, who has founded a group Fortunate Families to help Catholic families with lesbian daughters and gay sons, in her own words:
Fast forward to a family vacation in the Gulf. There were five of us floating—Sean and his wife, Chris, and his dad and me, holding onto each other’s rafts. And I said, ‘I think this is what Heaven is like.’ And Christopher said quietly, “except I won’t be there with you.” “Son, where do you get this stuff?” “Mom, it’s your club. You know the rules.”
And if my cradle Catholic child, growing up in a loving family, got this message, then what does Catholic mean in more conservative homes? … And I wonder, why do I stay in a club that my son says is dangerous to his soul?”
Another panelist at the event described the freedom she feels as a result of living, within the church’s rules, as a celibate lesbian.
A third, a physician in New York City, praised the Catholic tradition for its emphasis on human dignity and social justice, but added: “I am troubled by the fact that I find greater acceptance of myself as a whole person in my professional community as a physician, than I do in the official hierarchy of the church of my family, my childhood, and my life.”
At the same time, he refused to let the church off the hook for the part he accuses it of playing in tacitly condoning the bullying of LGBT youth.
Last month, at Yale University, a Catholic layman who teaches psychiatry spoke movingly of his attempt to offer church leaders the wisdom of his scientific field, and of his bitter disappointment when his offers were met with silence.
And at Connecticut ’s Fairfield University, scholars, clergy, and lay Catholics recently discussed the implications for the church of having many gay and lesbian people, both in and out of the closet, in roles as priests and ministers.
These public events have brought into the light the struggles, compromises and choices about meaning and love that many Catholics experience daily.
Poll numbers show that while many of their bishops have been stepping up their rhetoric on the issue, only one-in-three American Catholics describe opposition to same-sex marriage as “very important.” Seventy percent support legal recognition for same-sex couples.
All of us, Catholic or not, LGBT or not, owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to keep these new conversations going. Let’s not to settle for only part of the story.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Patrick Hornbeck.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
Do you bozos really think quoting scripture and threatening eternal damnation will make people deny their true natures? Would you deny yours?
What utter idiocy.
and I must admit, or am i the only one who thingks this, that picture at the top of this article is adorable. 🙂
I think so, too, Kayla.
hahaha sooo adorable
Gays. They are around us every day. And NOBODY has the right to judge them. They have their view on life, and by god they are living their lives, maybe happier and fuller than we are. So stop trying to change who the gays are. Stop trying to banned then from public places. Deal with it. Because those gays, deal with this every day of their lives. From family to starngers, like you people.
Why are gays even religious??? Christians are taught to hate gays which is ironic since Jesus was supposedly accepting and loving of everyone. It's all a bunch of hooey.
You do make a valid point, though many would say the God of the bible is for everyone to get to know the creator, gays and straights alike. But it does seem to be like a paraplegic suing The American Pogo Stick Co. because he is unable to operate their toys properly.
And why are christians taught to hate gays? Why can't you be gay and be christian? Why. You cannot, CANNOT, tell somebody they can't be christian or they aren't christian just because they're gay.
The Old Testament sanctions are supposed to be void for Christians living under a new covenant and Jesus never said a thing in relation to gays. However, Paul did, so they infer that Jesus would have also condemned it as sinful, but this just wasn't recorded in the gospels. It doesn't follow logically however, and what they are really doing is making a leap of faith with this. Remember the Victoria Jackson reaction to the "Glee" gay kiss? It's personal distaste, like vegetarians watching someone eating a steak, that's at the root of this.
It is sickening even to read some of the posts on this particular blog. It looks as those who claim to be "enlightened" by their "gay experiences" are getting more and more explicit and vulgar in their lashing out at anyone who's not giving in to their whining tempertantums to be accepted and viewed as normal...
To you, people everything that exposes your lewd human nature and doesn't sugarcoat the truth is hate. You'll do anything to protect your "rights" to preserve your "liberties" to keep doing your lewd deeds.... you even duck behind the Consti'tut'ion, claiming your "rights" to "express" yourself! That's all you care about, but you don't care how it affects the world around you and whom you hurt. You even desire the others to be like you, promoting your lifestyles!
But there is a place where you can not duck down behind anything to hide.... To the eyes of God nothing is hidden. And it is Him you will have to face, and to Him you WILL give account. And you KNOW that, in spite of denying it. satan mocks, and denies Christ Jesus, but he fears and trembles at the mention of His Name .
Now,say, you who call us who speak such truth to you all kinds of vile names, do you consider this to be a hate speech? Or are they the words of wisdom to the stiff necked people who out of their rebellion label it as hate? Those who are honest KNOW what it is!
But you, people, have some deep set in problems, and unless you acknowledge having them, you will NEVER be set free, BUT sink ever deeper and deeper into depravities. You may manage to eradicate some diseases which come with that lifestyle, but your souls are in bondage, imprisoned in tangled web of the enemy of your soul, who sold you a bag of lies, telling you you are free, but keeps you in his ever tightening grip. And the very One whom you hate, the Lord Jesus Christ, who said to the woman caught in sin, about to be stoned "neither do I condemn you, Go and sin no more", He is the only One who can set you free. She listened, an was set free, but it's the "go and SIN NO MORE" that you hate to hear, and that keeps you in your chains!
May God have mercy on you and help you to see, before your day of reckoning comes, and you'll be lost forever!
Please, show me how someone being gay hurts anyone? If you're only gripe is that god doesn't like it, then let god deal with it, not you.
The places where it says Hom0s3xual in the modern Bible it actually meant something different. One meaning meant something more similar to pedophilia and one was something like 'men who are soft.' It seems almost like there was no word for hom0s3xual at that time. If that is true, then back then they probably did not think it was possible to actually be attracted to someone of the same s3x, but that if someone was doing that it was going against the bodies natural tendencies, and it was an act of rebellion. But we know now that that isn't true.
Isn't Dorf that Tim Conway character with the funny accent? You know the one where his legs are in a hole so that he looks much shorter and can pop up and down in a funny way. Huh. I'd forgotten about Dorf.
"Isn't Dorf that Tim Conway character-"
Why don't you keep to yourself your frivolous, shallow ranting (about me), which tells more about YOU than you cold comprehend... and yet, you know NOTHING about me!
Where I come from, we have a name for characters like you! But I won't bother to speak it...
Change your name to Dick. It would be more accurate, you freakin' dll dough
Religion is way more detrimental to society than homosexuality. I'm more concerned about religious charlatans (any religious leader and/or the likes of HeavenScent or "Run & Hide Herbie") recruiting children into their cults than gays displaying affection in public, especially since no one decides to be gay so recruitment is not possible.
"Please, show me how someone being ga-y hurts anyone?"
You asked, so I will answer you...
Anything that is against nature hurts, and produces lasting, undesirable co'nsequences. This is the same in all creation...name anything, it's the same pr'inciple. So, it should be self explanatory , and not hard to understand especially for those who count themselves to be naturalists....
It is evident that we, humans are different from any other beings known (or yet unknown) on the face of the earth. We have power in our hands and through our intelect to build up or tear down, to protect or destroy the natural order of many, if not most things on our planet. We are " supreeme" beings on this earth.
So WHAT does this all have to do with debate about being "ga-y" (which should be called "ho-mo-se-xu-ality", and not "ga-y" because there is NOTHING "ga-y" about it)?
Because if man (meaning here mankind) to whom is such power given, corrupts himself to alter what is natural about himself, what will become of societies where such corruption is widespread and becomes norm?
History is our witness. No one can deny the many examples of societies so far gone, that they vanished because of corruption. Many gave themselves over to the very thing you , people, want to protect, making it out ot be exalting as if it were "enlightenment" for our days.
How deb'ouched can you people be, not to be able to discern light from darkness, right from wrong, and twisted from what is normal and natural?
What will those who indulge themselves in their twi'sted lifestyles leave to their po'sterity? Will they even have any po'sterity?
But regardless whether a person acknowledges God, the Creator of all that exists, who have us life or not, it does not change the fact that the truth is always the same.
God has set the laws of the universe, He has also put LAWS in human hearts as well as human intellect, and the KNOWLEDGE of those laws, which even if they were not written down for us to tes'tify of them, we, human beings STILL KNOW THEM, becaue He has put them in us.
When a person goes against these laws, they sin against their Creator, against nature, against THEIR OWN BEING , degrading their own worth. All those who are in co'ntact with them ARE affected, because we are created not to be islands to ourselves, but to be a part of 1.)family, 2) community, 3)society 4) civilization.
What we do AFFECTS others, and even those of you who claim we're just animals, just look at the animal world, the natural law it's the same, even they recognize it. They don't do what is unnatural among themselves, unless they are nature's "fre'aks" and then they are banished form their groups. That's just an example...
But we're not animals. We HAVE HUMAN SOULS. That should be enough to make each one of you to think, examining more deeply the things involved here. Yet, sadly, all is heard is "what does it hurt" ? Can't you tell? Even the nature is teaching you, but you have no ears to hear nor eyes to see!
Finally, there is no evil on any person's part to have h-se-xual thoughts. Because as the saying goes "if a bird flies over your head, do you have to let it build a nest on your head"?
There is no tw'isted thought that satan, the enemy of our souls, has not yet dug up and thrown at every human being alive..... But do you have to accept it, allow it to co'nceive and grow in your mind, till it becomes so big and possesses your heart and soul, defiling you, dehumanizing your person ?
It is true that our human se-x'u-ality has a powerful hold on many people of weak, undisciplined character. But it was not given to us to indulge in it, as wild bea'sts would indulge feasting on prey, riping it apart till they vomit, because of the ex'cess of their feeding frenzy.... Because that's exactly what many have become in search to gratify their lu'sts, by which they have allowed themselves to be overcome !
So, here is your answer.... If you read it slowly and let things written here SPEAK to you, you will see that th meaning of it is deep and makes and impact on the soul.
And if you don't see in it the answer you said you're looking for , there's no hope that you'll see it, no matter how many at'tempts someone may make to get it through to you. Because it is the matter of what is in someone's heart, whether they will hear and see, or turn away and pretend it's nothing for them in there.
Tom, WHY such hateful, nasty comment. Is it bothering you that my posts are so direct, not being sugarcoated? But you KNOW it's the truth what I said !
I don't have animosity toward anyone, neither toward "gay's" .
But you surely do!
"especially since no one decides to be gay so recruitment is not possible."
For those who believe that it is a choice, then perhaps the fear is that they might be "recruited". What a sad, neurotic little life that must be.
Dorf, I understand your line of thought because I was an evangelical Christian for 40 years.
I left the faith because the Bible is morally bankrupt. In fact, it is anti-moral. I invite you to read my blog series on biblical slavery to see one example. Leave a comment there if you wish, and I'll respond. The introductory post and an index to the series are here: http://pathofthebeagle.com/2011/09/10/invitation-to-a-dialog-on-biblical-slavery/
:What will those who indulge themselves in their twi'sted lifestyles leave to their po'sterity? Will they even have any po'sterity?:
What's sad is you are going leave behind prejudice and bigotry. The experts disagree with you, they have shown being gay is normal, and is not a mental illness. It's sick twisted people like you that should not be a part of our society.
"It is true that our human se-x'u-ality has a powerful hold on many people of weak, undisciplined character. "
Again, the experts in psychology disagree with you and have proven being gay is NOT something you can just change, it's dangerous. What is sad you didn't even bother to learn the truth about this subject so your bigotry and prejudice is based on lies you have personally told yourself.
People don't usually rail against something quite so hard unless it's hit a nerve....right, Dorf? The picture at the top of the page made you feel funny in your bathing suit area, didn't it. Don't worry, we won't tell your family or friends...they might be as righteous as you, and toss you out of the club.
"Anything that is against nature hurts, and produces lasting, undesirable co'nsequences. "
Uhhhh...it's found throughout nature! LOL! It's been well documented.
Dorf it looks like in that entire post your basic message was that being gay is harmful because it goes against a person's own nature. But sometimes being gay is a person's nature. So wouldn't it actually be a sin to try to be straight in that case?
"God has set the laws of the universe,"
Then your god created gay animals everywhere. LOL!
"He has also put LAWS in human hearts as well as human intellect, and the KNOWLEDGE of those laws, which even if they were not written down for us to tes'tify of them, we, human beings STILL KNOW THEM"
And homosexuality is found throughout human history.
'Dorf Bewohner' means village inhabitant, someone who lives in a village. Village Idiot would make a more accurate handle ...
ehy isn't people talking?
anyone can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
Nobody on these boards particularly cares for one on one coversation.
I bet we get nothing but spam spam, lovely spam, wonderful spam spam spam.
I just sent you and email and you have not responded. But, mcool 123 is going to receive a free Bible
Nothing in my inbox (or even junk mail box) yet!
As for the free bible – I always carry an electronic copy and have a paper one at home, nestled between the Torah and the Koran.
An old saying is "a man with two watches never knows what time it is" That may apply to too many Bibles also. You can get rid of the Koran since it is but a bad copy of the first two. Just don't deface it or put it in the trash. You are stuck with it now, suggest you put it in safe so nothing happens to it then loose the combination.
i am gay and i am proud of it!!!
Clearly god made a mistake in creating two compatible s e x s.
Why don't you ask him, gerald?
Are you makinge the claim that men and women are compatible? Please cite source material... and it must be from someone who has been married at least once...
If you mean "compatible" as in able to be friends, then I think that our tendency to to gravitate towards our same gender, wouldn't you say?
I guess that makes me heterocompatible, Most of my friends and closest colleagues have been female.
Ah yes, let's take away all guilt. Johnny bashes his sisters head. He shouldn't be made to feel guilty about that by the Church. We should uphold his right to bash his sisters head and encourage him in it. Guilt is to be ignored and swept under the rug. After all it is that evil church that causes it and not our consciences. There is no such thing as right or wrong and no absolute truth even though in saying this I have to state an absolute truth that is self refuting.
you remind me of my dog when he chases his tail.
Ah yes, whenever someone talks about acceptance in the church, there's always the person or people who believe differently and so decide to immediatly apply the slippery slope fallacy. Question for you, do you only feel guilt when the church tells you to or have you felt guilty for doing something you know is wrong, like say judging and hating a set of people for no other reason than expressing themselves?
gerald, please show how hom.os.exuality hurts anyone? Please cite current, credible scientific studies to prove your point. If you chose to cite your god or your bible, please provide proof that a) your god is real and b) the the bible is indeed his word.
Please give your proof as to how somehow being gay equates to physically assaulting someone. History shows that gays have suffered far more at christian hands than christians have suffered at the hands of gays.
"Johnny bashes his sisters head."
Johnny hurts his sister when he does so. What moral argument, apart from your two thousand year old book, do you have for saying that hom.ose.xuality is bad? How does it hurt others?
Chuckles: I am curious as to why you have pages of posts asking for proof behind other peoples' beliefs, yet you fail to provide your own sources on your beliefs so they may be challenged. You should have several in published form from several viewpoints which allows people to makeup their own mind. Care to share them so others can understand your point of view to agree or disagree. In addition, as a student of religion, why do you single out some people's religions and not others? Where is the depth of knowledge on world religion? Or are you studying one aspect of it? There will always be someone who has more knowledge on one subject than another.
Civil questions and civil questions deserve civil answers, so now I'm going to apologoze before moving forward because I'm sure I will somehow offend you, but it's not intentional, not yet anyway.
If you would really like, I won't mind finding sources that back up my own evidence that I am providiing, but would you like to give me a little more direction? What exactly would you like me to back up?
Secondly, I am a student of religion and have learned about a great many religions, the abrahamic, the ones in the east (Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Jainism,) and done my duedilligence on paganism and anamism as well, not to mention voodoo and santaria that you'll find in the carribean. Why I single out the abrahamic religions however is beacuse a) I know more about them and can argue a point either for or against them better than a lot of the others, b) in our little chauvinist part of the world it can pretty much be guaranteed that monotheism is considered "right" and polytheism, anamism, etc... is considered "wrong" which leads me to c) why discuss the tenants of other religions and philosophy when the subject isn't even broached and most believers and unbelievers alike will agree with me.
If you have a question regarding other world religions and you want to debate a specific point, say how Confuscianism is a philosophy and not a religion, or that when mixed with chinese customary religion is a perfect recipe for communism, then lets do it.
Chuck...you still have not answered TL's original question. What is your belief? are you an atheist ? or, do you practice any other religion? If yes, be specific with your response.
Apo.logies, I consider myself an Atheist Jew. I include jew and not just the ti.tle of "atheist" because although I find religion to be a waste of time and energy to pay deference to, Judaism is my heri.tigage, culture and background. I still celebrate jewish holidays with my family insofar as having meals, discu.ssing the ins and outs of judaism and as.cribe to jewish values, however I opt out of attending services or saying prayers.
Does that answer the question?
do you have an gmail account? Here's mine email@example.com
You are in good company with Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx. I cannot believe there is actually a wikki on Jewish Atheist, let me know if is accurate. They also have list of Jewish Atheists:
There is no Chuckles on that list or a laughing either of any kind. I hope to see your name there soon. Might I suggest you write a book on the stupid things one can learn from a box of hammers.
Wow, for once I failed to disagree with anything you wrote! We're making progress! And why not write a book, I'm sure a lot of the "bag o' hammers"'s posts have been a great way to show where ignorance can lead and how to rectify it.
was that at me? If so, why not carry on discussion on this forum?
Catholicism is almost as messed up as gaybes. But at least catholics know they they made a choice to turn to catholocism. Gaybes claim that they are "born that way..." Crazy...
Sometimes the truth hurts.
Pravda, it's OK. You can express your gay desires here.
"Gaybes claim that they are "born that way..." Crazy."
Huh... and here I thought it was the experts that are saying it. You're stupidity and prejudice is showing.
what's wrong with gay people? I think that they are cool
Please provide the citations to peer reviewed scientific research that supports your contention that gays choose to be gay.
I presume you remember the moment when you chose to be straight? I'd love to hear about it.
By your logic then you actually choose to be straight, and are tempted to have se.x with your own gender. You must find it difficult to control those urges, eh?
Seems pretty gay to me.
So Ted Nugent seems pretty gay to you? I don't think so. As far as I can tell, he's just another neocon draft dodger.
WWJD wrote, "Plants use sunlight to manufacture food Job 8:16 (Man discovered 1920)"
Funny, because in Genesis 1 states that your god created plants without a photon source to drive photosynthesis.
In the book "Chronicles of Wasted Time", Malcolm Muggeridge described his teaching experience around 1900 in English schools for young men. He described how gayness was quite in fashion at that time. I shudder to think. Can anyone imagine the heterophobia going on in a place like that?
Can we say, "christian persecution compex"
oop sorry, I realized that probably is going to be taken as me attacking you.....
Post by catholic engineer contains the fallacy of begging the question.
"He described how gayness was quite in fashion at that time. I shudder to think. Can anyone imagine the heterophobia going on in a place like that?"
Christians Catholic churches constantly describe how heterosexuality is quite in fashion all time. I shudder to think. Can anyone imagine the homophobia going on in a place like that?
I offered my comment as bait, to test the responses of Christiophobes. My conclusion: If I so much as squint in the presence of a gay person, I'm a "hater". When a Christian rebels against his own rough treatment, he's got a "persecution complex". I won't call this double standard "hypocrisy". Atheists have a copyright on that word's use. Let's just call it ... well... double standard.
@ Fallacy Spotting 101 We're glad the fallacy police are here. Are we living up to your standards? Please don't start an inquisition.
So let me get this straight,
You make an incendiary comment to get people to make mean comments back at you and then point out that we're the bad guys? That's the most as.s-backwards way to catch a crook there is.
CE, honestly, if you don't want people to hate on christians, then don't hate on others, it's pretty simple. Also, please point out to me where christians are receiving "rough" treatment? Are you allowed to marry other catholics? Yes, well gay people aren't allowed to marry. Are you allowed a choice to decided what you want to do with your body? Woman won't have that right if christians get their way. Are you constantly accused of running the media and under threat of violance because of your hertiage? Jews have been since time immemorial. Do you have to have constant police police protection at events, museums, holy places of worship and community centers because your targeted by terrorists? Jews again (oops did them twice). Have you been accused of not being an american by the president of the united states? Nope, that goes tot he atheists..
So I'm confused, wheres the rough treatement coming from? Comment boards on cnn.com? The HORROR!!
Set of recent posts by catholic engineer contains the fallacy of begging the question and the ad hominem fallacy.
@Guffawing: You turn a good sentence. Still, a person can be literate without actually reading something. Here's what you need to read: this entire damned page !! And "incendiary"? This blog is oozing incendiary commentary. Odds are, you were bound to get a response in kind. This is not hard to understand. BTW, I only TRY to be a good catholic. I usually fail, especially in the presence of people whose "reason" is no bigger than their brain capacity.
"I only TRY to be a good catholic. I usually fail, especially in the presence of people whose "reason" is no bigger than their brain capacity."
the log in your eye is making you blind.
Doesn't matter what religion you follow or don't follow – someone who comes off like a smug jacka$$ is still going to get poked at, no matter where they are.
So let me get this straight, because everyone else is writing mean comments, you took it on yourself to draw more mean comments specifically addressed to you to show everyone that mean comments are being made? Did I miss a turn at that last fork? Because I'm completely lost.
Secondly, why did you put the word reason in ""'s? and do you have some bigger brain capacity than anyone else?
Dude, if you came on here to get pis.sed about every comment on this board directed towards christianity, might I ask that you look up pictures of jesus, or unicorns or bunnies instead? You're not going to find a comment board about religion on the entire internet where everyone will chime in, "I agree! Yay for world peace and religious acceptance!" so what do you want?
You can either to continue to post comments that will ultimately get attacked and then throw a fit and post more comments to prove some people will jump down your thoat OR you can ask simple questions and see if those questions get responses. I mean what else can I say? Get thi.cker skin?
Delightfully and pragmatically put.
its ok people, the great hakerchef will come and save us all from the sneeze! Bless you!
... and always know where you towel is!
Hippypoet strikes me as a frood who really knows where his towel is.
Recent flurry of posts by user 'WWJD" is quite a set of fallacies, including:
ad nauseum fallacy
fallacy of argument by vehemence
ad hominem fallacy (several distinct cases)
plurium Interrogationum fallacy
and that is just to get started. See e.g. http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
With a list like that, please allow me this comment: WWJD seems quite desperate, in using such apparent bullying tactics.
Any propaganda being justified in the name of defending the faith, eh?
If they support LGBT agendas, then they're not "good Catholics." Thanks for another biased article.
Post by Martin is the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Fallacy Spotting 101:
You exhibit the fallacy of "There Is No Truth".
Catholicism is defined and yet people can not define it. One cannot deny the definition because no one accepts it. The fallacy of "No True Scotsman" is the assumption that there is No Truth. It begs the question. No True Truth?
TonyBigs, please provide a reference regarding your claimed fallacy.
This is exactly why I mind my own and not try to interfere with their intellectual exchange...
Still makes more sense than evangelicals talking to each other. 😉
I studied in a Vatican seminary in Rome and was ordained to the Priesthood. I struggled with many questions during that time: love, meaning, gay, faith, acceptance. After 5 years in the Priesthood I left, to continue my journey. "That Undeniable Longing: My Journey to and from the Priesthood" by Mark Tedesco, is my story. I would be happy to share this story with you; consider reading it and let me know what you think of my journey