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 A series of recent conferences have cast a light on gay Catholics and their families.
November 8th, 2011
12:22 PM ET
My Take: Why good Catholics are challenging church line on homosexuality
By Patrick Hornbeck , Special to CNN The Roman Catholic Church has long been a reliable source for one-dimensional storylines: Victims of sexual abuse call for justice. Parishes close as numbers of clergy plummet. Rosary-clad Catholics protest outside abortion clinics. Perhaps nowhere has the storyline seemed more clear-cut than with regard to the church’s treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and their relationships. Official Catholic teachings describe gay or lesbian orientation as “an objective disorder” and tell those who love their same-sex partners that they possess a “tendency… toward an intrinsic moral evil.” Catholic bishops have been public advocates for laws banning same-sex marriage, and some have sought to prevent LGBT Catholics and their allies from fully participating in the Church’s rituals and activities But neither formal teachings nor bishops’ statements tell the whole story. A series of recent conferences at American colleges reveals the breadth of Catholic approaches to issues of sexual diversity. The conferences, part of an effort called More than a Monologue, have happened at two Catholic universities and two non-denominational divinity schools The events conclusively show that American Catholics are hardly of one mind, nor in lockstep with their bishops, when it comes to same-sex marriage; to rights for LGBT people at home, at work, and in church; or to the ongoing campaign against anti-gay bullying in schools. At Fordham University in New York, a Catholic school, a proud mother of a grown gay son drew a standing ovation when she told a story about discovering the effect of church teachings on her child. Here’s that mother, Deb Word, who has founded a group Fortunate Families to help Catholic families with lesbian daughters and gay sons, in her own words: Fast forward to a family vacation in the Gulf. There were five of us floating—Sean and his wife, Chris, and his dad and me, holding onto each other’s rafts. And I said, ‘I think this is what Heaven is like.’ And Christopher said quietly, “except I won’t be there with you.” “Son, where do you get this stuff?” “Mom, it’s your club. You know the rules.” And if my cradle Catholic child, growing up in a loving family, got this message, then what does Catholic mean in more conservative homes? … And I wonder, why do I stay in a club that my son says is dangerous to his soul?” Another panelist at the event described the freedom she feels as a result of living, within the church’s rules, as a celibate lesbian. A third, a physician in New York City, praised the Catholic tradition for its emphasis on human dignity and social justice, but added: “I am troubled by the fact that I find greater acceptance of myself as a whole person in my professional community as a physician, than I do in the official hierarchy of the church of my family, my childhood, and my life.” At the same time, he refused to let the church off the hook for the part he accuses it of playing in tacitly condoning the bullying of LGBT youth. Last month, at Yale University, a Catholic layman who teaches psychiatry spoke movingly of his attempt to offer church leaders the wisdom of his scientific field, and of his bitter disappointment when his offers were met with silence. And at Connecticut ’s Fairfield University, scholars, clergy, and lay Catholics recently discussed the implications for the church of having many gay and lesbian people, both in and out of the closet, in roles as priests and ministers. These public events have brought into the light the struggles, compromises and choices about meaning and love that many Catholics experience daily. Poll numbers show that while many of their bishops have been stepping up their rhetoric on the issue, only one-in-three American Catholics describe opposition to same-sex marriage as “very important.” Seventy percent support legal recognition for same-sex couples. All of us, Catholic or not, LGBT or not, owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to keep these new conversations going. Let’s not to settle for only part of the story. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Patrick Hornbeck. soundoff (2,880 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor's Note: Patrick Hornbeck is an assistant professor and associate chair for undergraduate studies at Fordham University.
The gay bigotry issue is a huge reason why many of us have left the church. I may not be lesbian, but I will not worship a being who tortures people forever for being different.
The church needs to quit preaching hatred towards others. Until you have been hated and bullied for being different for some reason, those of you who hate and bully others will never, ever understand what it is like. Nor will you understand our empathy towards gays & lesbians.
Everyone is hated and bullied in one way or another. Granted some sins are more open and reviled than others, but how many people are trying to legalize murder? Theft? The Ped0phyll lifestyle? The gaybe people bring a lot of open confrontation upon themselves for trying to force people to think that their lifestyle choice is acceptable.
"Granted some sins are more open and reviled than others, but how many people are trying to legalize murder? Theft? The Ped0phyll lifestyle?"
Yo moron, do some research about this issue...DUH – it's about consent and the law. Being gay isn't against the law moron.
Doesn't make it less revolting...
"Doesn't make it less revolting..."
It's a normal part of human sexuality and it's found through out nature. What is revolting is that stupid ignorant prejudices likes yours still exist in our society.
Pravda
"Doesn't make it less revolting..."
1. Every whit of revulsion that you feel is what gays feel at the thought of hetero s.ex.
2. If it revolts you, don't do it.
3. Every whit of attraction to the opposite s.ex that you feel is what gays feel towards their own.
4. I am hetero, but try as best as I can to be understanding of the personal preferences of others.
Willow, you wrote "The gay bigotry issue is a huge reason why many of us have left the church. I may not be lesbian, but I will not worship a being who tortures people forever for being different.
The church needs to quit preaching hatred towards others. Until you have been hated and bullied for being different for some reason, those of you who hate and bully others will never, ever understand what it is like. Nor will you understand our empathy towards gays & lesbians."
Answer: I believe you left the church for the same reasons others leave the church. That being, you're too lazy to read the Bible. First, if you read the Bible it states Jesus will blot people out ... no eternity for them. There will be no more tears in heaven. Meaning, those that get to spend eternity with Jesus won't remember those that had no respect for Jesus while they were housed in the flesh.
Amen.
It's all just a big elitist club. Ooh, you're going to hell but I'm going to heaven!
Glad it makes you feel better about yourself.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter (Isa 5:20).
I don't know if pravda and hesalive are trolling and intentionally trying to agitate, but am sickened by them. Far more so than I have ever been on these blogs. They are bad people and it is no laughing matter. I just hope they aren't teachers or something where they have influence over others.
hesalive, great post of His scripture. That is hitting the nail on the head for this issue.
Amen.
Hey CNN-
The cross symbolizes Sacrifice, Forgiveness and Redemption.
Whoever decided to use the Cross for this picture clearly has no sense of reverence nor did they care to respect for what the Cross represents.
You have showed scant regard for what the cross represents and allowing this picture to be used for this article. It is deplorable.
Satan loves it when King Jesus is blasphemed.
Hey Lewis
It's totally acceptable because there ARE gay christians and churches!
Most Christian congregations accepts gay people these days. Do you live under a rock ? If the church accepts them, why can't you ? Bigot.
@Lewis
What the cross means to you – you mean. Your sentence should say, "They have shown scant regard for what the cross represents to ME" I could give a rat's A-ss about your silly cross.
As an editor, I would choose this picture too as it represents the issue set forth in the article perfectly. You are an idiot.
That picture is distasteful and crass.
HAHAHA, you wrote to Lewis "Hey Lewis, It's totally acceptable because there ARE gay christians and churches!"
Answer: So called Gay Christians and Gay Churches love and follow satan's lie not Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior's truth. Big difference Jesus Christ's spiritual truth versus satan's carnal lies.
All everyone needs to do is repent, ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness, then sin no more.
Difficult? Only to the big egos in this world.
Amen.
"So called Gay Christians and Gay Churches love and follow satan's lie not Jesus Christ, "
No HS you're the big liar, you only interpret the scriptures to back up your prejudice mind and dark heart. The churches that are accepting of gays and lesbians are the ones truly following the teachings of your christ, NOT you.
Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean (Ezek. 22:26).
Yupper. Typical sign of an eroding civilization. When evil things are called acceptable and good. All struggle with sin, but when it is called acceptable and normal, then this is wrong.
"When evil things are called acceptable and good. "
Being gay isn't evil. Prejudice and bigotry is evil and not good for our society you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading hatred in our society.
Very evil, just like any other vice.
"Very evil, just like any other vice."
Yes you are evil and your vice is bigotry and prejudice.
Lol, whatever floats your canoe...
"Lol, whatever floats your canoe..."
Your bigotry and prejudice is no laughing matter it is what spreads hate in our society.
Steven, you babbled, "When evil things are called acceptable and good. "
Being gay isn't evil. Prejudice and bigotry is evil and not good for our society you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading hatred in our society."
Answer: You've got that backwards. Christians tell folks Jesus' truth. Jesus loves all of us. You just hate Jesus. Therefore, who's prejudice and a bigot? It's the same thing as getting into a Porche and driving in the direction to hit a brick wall and killing yourself. Because a Christian tells you to take a different route so that you prevent yourself from being killed you blame us when you refuse to change directions and hit that brick wall? Speak about insanity!
Amen.
"Jesus loves all of us"
Then he also loves gays and lesbians. LOL!
So the catholic church will be next in dropping their standards? Lifestyle decisions are a choice, stop trying to force people to believe that this is a normal lifestyle choice.
pravda
This is me beating you over the head with a 2 x 4:
Question to all the Gay bashers, and that is exactly what you are, hiding behind your religion:
Why would anyone CHOOSE to be persecuted, discriminated against, reviled, hated by their families and generally mistreated? There is no logic to that. Of course they are born Gay. They Chose the lifesyle??? What?? God is not happy with you people. Well, if there was a God he would be sickened by you.
Becoming a murderer, liar, thief, are all choices, just like this lifestyle. I can tell people I was born a thief, or a liar, and really believe it, but that does not make it true. Same with the gaybe life style. It is a choice, a decision. Some people turn to it because of abuse, some because of rejection, some out of curiosity, but no one is born a gaybe....
"Same with the gaybe life style. It is a choice, a decision. "
No it's not moron. All the major organizations the APA, AMA and World Health Org. have stated that being gay is not a choice. You're only spewing your prejudice opinion.
OMG, you are sick puppy. PLEASE don't run for public office, please??
That is silly to equate gayness with theft or murder.
LOL, sorry, it is a choice.
Are people born ped0phillys, and beast lovers or do they become that way over years of bad decisions and choices? Same thing with the gaybe lifestyle choice, it is a choice.
Pravda.................... I knew I was gay the first time I saw James Franciscus and Jim Conrad with their shirts off. The only choice I ever made regarding being gay was choosing my partner. I think the next choice you should make is of a good therapist.
A vice, is a vice is a vice. If a thousand ped0phillys stand up together, want to come out of the closet and get their lifestyle choice accepted as normal would you back them too? It is no different...
"Are people born ped0phillys, and beast lovers or do they become that way over years of bad decisions and choices? Same thing with the gaybe lifestyle choice, it is a choice."
The hundred of thousand experts in psychology disagree with you.
ROFL, yeah I am sure...
You should be. Psychiatrists do disagree with you.
How is it you "know" it's a choice, Pravdick? If it is, you must have made one at some point. That would mean that you had desires for others of your gender, but chose to ignore them. If you never had those feelings, then there's no choice involved.
Central Scrutinizer, you spewed the following nonsense "pravda, This is me beating you over the head with a 2 x 4:
Question to all the Gay bashers, and that is exactly what you are, hiding behind your religion:
Why would anyone CHOOSE to be persecuted, discriminated against, reviled, hated by their families and generally mistreated? There is no logic to that. Of course they are born Gay. They Chose the lifesyle??? What?? God is not happy with you people. Well, if there was a God he would be sickened by you."
Answer: I have many gay friends. What they do in their carnal life determines what happens when they die, go back to God who created all. If after the day of the Lord, they still hate or deny Jesus ... then Jesus will oblige them and blot them out for eternity. The Bible is Jesus' truth penned by Holy Men inspired by His Holy Spirit as a blueprint for all of us to be the best that He wants us to be. When man (meaning women too) sin and God gets angry with us. It's God way of stretching us to grow spiritually, not to reject Him and stubbornly stay in a carnal state of mind.
There's more ... but, I'm logging in a little while for the night.
P.S. If anyone is being hateful and bigots it's those that want to continue on their carnal road (which is wide by the way, not narrow to get into Heaven with Jesus) against those that humbled themselves to love and follow Jesus' truth.
Amen.
ATTENTION HEAVENSENT! OUR INTERNET POSTING MONITOR ENGINEERS KNOW YOU ARE ON-LINE AND WILL START BLOCKING YOUR POSTS SOON. SORRY FOR THE DELAY, AGAIN THEY WERE ALL OUT ON A SMOKE BREAK AT THE SAME TIME. DO NOT TRY TO HIDE. CNN, SATAN AND HIS EVIL MINIONS ARE HOT ON YOUR TRAIL. SEE WHAT WE DID THERE? "HOT" ON YOUR TRAIL. LOL. WE CRACK OURSELVES UP.
Tommie Tom, you still haven't figured out how to get a spiritual life.
Amen.
The Episcopal Church welcomes everyone. Period.
Exactly. Which is one of the reasons why 60-80 % of Episcopal congregations are made up of ex-Catholics, and ex-Lutherans. 😈
Lot's of drive by posts by the Christians as usual, but not much discussion, also as usual.
Question to all the Gay bashers, and that is exactly what you are, hiding behind your religion:
Why would anyone CHOOSE to be persecuted, discriminated against, reviled, hated by their families and generally mistreated? There is no logic to that. Of course they are born Gay. They Chose the lifesyle??? What?? God is not happy with you people. Well, if there was a God he would be sickened by you.
Central Scrutinizer, can't you come up with a better mantra? This argument is old, boring and so carnal.
Amen.
I have to ask.. again.. why were so many parts of things mentioned in the bible changing..
for eg, "earth is flat" "earth is the center of universe" "kill the child if he is disobiidient to his parents" "if a girl is ra.ped, kill the girl to wipe the sin from family"
– Wasn't Bible the word of god? written by god to be the absolute and unequivocal truth? if some part of it is considered/proven to be wrong, doesn't that mean god does not know the truth and not all that powerful? if so, why follow him?
– If some parts are now proven wrong, how can you be sure about the other parts of the book? how can you believe anything from the book? it could be wrong too.. proven wrong in the future..
-Or, it could mean that the book was not written by god, but by man.. if so, why follow some dudes yapping as absolute truth?
Snow, God's truth stands for eternity. Man changes, not God. There are no fault finding in the Bible. The fault lies within the reader.
As for the rest of the nonsense you babbled, you are mixing false religions with Jesus' truth. That's to be expected from you non-believers ... you just proved to me to be another non-believing LIAR.
Amen.
Heaven Sent, I hope you have never eaten a lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, etc. because if God never made a mistake in the Bible, you have committed an Abomination.
But wait, maybe I read that wrong, even though it specifically says 'shellfish' in the Bible.
"you just proved to me to be another non-believing LIAR."
Wow that log in your eye just keeps getting bigger and bigger.....
The Earth is flat? LOL, where in the Bible does it say that? The oldest book of the Bible, "Job" clearly states the earth is round.
Pravda, ""Job" clearly states the earth is round."
Nope. It says, "the circle of the Earth" (as in a disc). The old Hebrews had a word for 'sphere' - they did not use it.
""Job" clearly states the earth is round."
That's funny since in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.” It claims a circle which is a 2 dimensional flat surface not a sphere which is 3 dimensional and round. You would think your god would have known that. LOL!
Pravda
THINK.
Isaiah 11:12
Revelation 7:1
These are just two of many passage that refer to the "Four Corners of the Earth" or the "Ends of the Earth. Flat much?
This one is amusing too:
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble." (Job 9:6)
sonas76, you babbled "Heaven Sent, I hope you have never eaten a lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, etc. because if God never made a mistake in the Bible, you have committed an Abomination. But wait, maybe I read that wrong, even though it specifically says 'shellfish' in the Bible."
Answer: God never said this was a sin against Him. He said that these scavengers are NOT good for the body. Therefore, it is a sin against what is good for our bodies.
Try changing your mindset instead of trying to change God.
Amen.
HAHAHA, you babbled """Job" clearly states the earth is round."
That's funny since in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.” It claims a circle which is a 2 dimensional flat surface not a sphere which is 3 dimensional and round. You would think your god would have known that. LOL!"
Answer: scientists, researchers, explorers etc., wouldn't know what to search if it weren't for Jesus' truth in the Bible. What? Do you honestly think they got these ideas came to them on their own? You're too foolish for words.
Amen.
Then, HS, provide proof that they got their ideas from the Bible. While you're at it, answer that question I posed to you. Are the souls of the Jewish chaplains in heaven?
Heaven Sent: "scientists, researchers, explorers etc., wouldn't know what to search if it weren't for Jesus' truth in the Bible."
What on Earth are you blathering about? There were scientists, researchers, explorers, etc. in ancient China, India, and many other far-flung places long before your Hebrew Bible.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, still spewing your babble as follows "Then, HS, provide proof that they got their ideas from the Bible. While you're at it, answer that question I posed to you. Are the souls of the Jewish chaplains in heaven?"
Answer: Oh, the old mantra of prove it, prove it, prove it. Are you ever going to get past 2nd grade Tommie Tom? Why don't you get yourself a phony medium and contact the phony souls that pretend to communicate with them and ask them for yourself. As for the Jewish Chaplains being in paradise. I've told you many times on these articles ... ALL souls go back to God who created ALL. The question you need to ask Tommie Tom to pretend that you are paying attention is "what side of the divide in paradise did these souls go to"? My answer would be ... I don't know. What human knows who repented to Jesus for their sins of the flesh before they took their last breath. Only God knows what is in a person's heart ... to love and follow His truth.
Amen.
Heavensent.. please pleasee come infront of me.. so I can slap you hard enough to shake your re.ta.rdedness out of you.. Pick one sentence .. exactly one sentence from all the drival you gave above.. and show with reasonable clarity (not much) that it is true.. Don't f ing use the "Its written in the book so it is true" argument.. I will slap you again for that..
and don't start the "ah I am such a persecuted christian routine".. i will slap you again..
Thing is it doesn't really matter what lay people, parishioners or even bishops think. Catholicism is a dictatorial system, not a democratic one. Whatever the Pope says, is literally, the word of God. American Catholics, or those of any country can disagree in any size numbers they want, but until they actually leave the congregation, and take there money with them, it's not likely to have any effect.
"Whatever the Pope says, is literally, the word of God"
I'm not a catholic apologist by any stretch of the imagination, but that just isn't true.
Well they believe basically that the pope is basically Jesus's representative on earth, and that what the pope says is basically infallible.
Think for Yourself, it's called papal infallibility. Look it up.
philip hades, I hate to break this news to you, but, the Pope (and all previous Popes) are legions in their own minds. They sprinkle in some of Jesus Christ's truth so they can then preach the logic of man. They do not, and I repeat, do not teach His truth book by book, scripture by scripture.
Amen.
@Mike C – I'm well aware of what papal infallability is. It is rarely ever envoked. Papal infallability does NOT apply to 'whatever the pope says'. Perhaps its time for you to go back to Sunday school.
Philip, and since the pope never spoke out against or removed pedo priests, do you attribute that to God's position?
Just ridiculous. Gay catholics? no such thing.
Yep. Just like there are no gay republicans or gays in Iran.
Yep, just like there are no gays in musical theater.
Oops, another Christian drive by. Thanks for nothing taerlin.
Central Scrutinizer, please see my follow-up post. I'm not a drive-by.
for the benefit of those posting after i go home... here, read and post your thoughts... i am not meaning to be insulting if it comes off that way, i just want others to see a view into the history that predates jesus and "his" message...
The Buddha, born 563 b.c.
Zoroasterianism – creation of religion – 500 b.c.
before jesus came around Abraham's god was mean and anger, jelous and spiteful...but thats not the god jesus preached about...his message was nearly exactly like that of another great preacher – the first Buddha – he spoke about the evils of material wealth and to love one another and to show compassion to all people...Shortly after the Buddha there was a spiritual happening going down in Persia, the Movement was started with a man named Zarathruster – greek translation Zoroaster – the religion that stemed from it...Zoroasterianism, the basic tenets are One great good all powerful god and the evil enemy...no other religion has an enemy of god like Zoroaster did...the first monotheistict religion was Abraham, but the first devil figure was Zoroaster's god...
everything above is factual based on historic events and facts...below is my view on it...
so with the good vs. evil gods and the message of love and compassion jesus had the perfect scam...then he died... oops!
jesus is a thief and a lier. He combined Jewish mysticism and eastern philosphy and then claimed to be the son of god – that takes balls!
this is an argument that states jesus was nothing like that of the modern day image of him! hell the man was most likely black with nappy hair, but all the white folk swear he is white too – didn't god form us in his image or was it the other way around!??!!
source – http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html here under the timeline page it states and elsewhere that Zoroaster may have actually lived even further into the past then i state -around 1400 or 1200 b.c. – and thats before moses !!!!!! i am being cautious with the times and dates so angry believers don't jump down my throat. please don't be insulting, just post your thoughts no matter how mean or angry, just no insults.... i have enough of those today.
Hey hippypoet, didn't anyone ever tell you that everything you know is wrong?
If not, take my post as your first acknowledgment of your condition.
Amen.
HS, are your only ideas coming from god? If so, I want nothing to do with such a vile creature.
It's funny HeavenSent. You just spout your rhetoric, tell everyone they are wrong and that you are right just because somehow you know all based upon your faith. I do not believe, therefore everything you say is invalid. All it takes is one person to state that everything you say is complete cr.ap and your validity is negated. Your beliefs are wrong, your opinion is wrong, and everything you say is wrong. See how that works? I can do it too. maybe if you had a sound argument to back up the garbage that you spew, someone would take you seriously.
actually no, only you heaven sent have said such to me... reason is because i am wrong but no often...i do my research and when i am wrong i admitt it! here i am not wrong, being its a view into history, all of the above post is fact or my opinion, and i state which is which!
hippypoet, you do research on what? LOL ... searching other haters of God sites?
GMAB with the 4 kingdoms of satan's polluted everyone's minds.
Amen.
Sadly in reality the catholic is anything but in line with the teachings of Jesus. They have had a history from the inception of heinous crimes against humanity and do not even want to allow anyone to read and learn about Jesus on their own. Just look at the dichotomy between each of the successive popes and what so many of them did SUPPOSEDLY in the name of God.
NO WHERE in the Bible or any of the texts selected for the canon does JESUS himself say ANYTHING aboutLGBT folks. It must be a non issue with Him.
Being LGBT is not a "lifestyle" by any definition of the word. Being a priest IS a lifestyle and brings with it a very broad assumed responsibility to teach about God and Jesus. That being said, the church as a whole STILL cannot repent of its own sins which beggar description and actually follow what JESUS lived and taught. The Dalai Lama has a MUCH better grasp on what TRUE Christianity is supposed to be and he is not even Christian.
Can you really be Catholic and gay? Maybe you want to pretend that its OK. But from what I have read in the Bible its not possible. I see no reason why you should not be allowed to attend a Catholic church. But as far as following the teachings and beliefs. I don't think being gay is OK.
@John
OF COURSE it is not OK to be a Catholic and Gay. Now you get out there and do what the good book commands and kill those f ags mister!! Blood MUST be upon them!
There's a big difference between being a Catholic and questioning the Church's teachings to better understand them, versus questioning the Church's teachings to challenge them. If you are truly Catholic and want to receive the one true God in Holy Communion, you have to accept the Church's teachings. You don't have to understand them. But, I'd encourage you to find understanding of them. Seek out a good, orthodox teacher or book and learn what you don't understand or feel comfortable with. Find out why the Church holds the position it does. If you fully understood the issues from the Church's point of view, I'm convinced that 99.9% of the time, you would agree with the Church's position. But to challenge them publicly is to invite scandal. It leads people who do not understand the Church or particular teachings of the Church to form negative opinions of the Church, and it leads them away from the Church and from the one place they can find the true presence of Christ on Earth. Jesus himself had strong words about those who lead others away from him. That's dangerous territory. For those things you still don't understand or agree with, take this into consideration: As a Catholics, we believe that Christ was God, God is all-knowing, and Christ established the one true Church. Christ put Peter, the first pope, at the head of the Church. He gave Peter and his successors authority to interpret Jesus' message. For 2000 years, that message has not changed. The doctrines of the Church have withstood the test of time, despite some very flawed individuals who've held seats of authority within the Church. The Church's wisdom, like Christ's, is outside and beyond the times and the cultures. They are universal and timeless. They have been challenged before, and they'll be challenged again. If one person, or a group of people, or a culture, or even the majority of the world, decides to believe or practice something which the Church interprets to be contrary to God's loving relationship with His people, who are we to disagree with God? It's better for us to seek out understanding wherever possible, accept mysteries when something has not been revealed to us by God, and open our hearts to God's love.
I am interested to see responses to this.
Well said taerlin.
Jesus sat down and ate with sinners, but not for the pupose of telling them it was OK to sin. His message was – sin is unacceptable.
God's position does not change. It is for us to comply with His law, not for us to challenge it. And to continue to do it despite whatever our current culture throws at us.
If you are truly Catholic and want to receive the one true God in Holy Communion, you have to accept the Church's teachings.
--You just made that up. NOWHERE does Roman theology say that JC is NOT present in communion, IF you receive it, and don't believe.
"Seek out a good, orthodox teacher or book and learn what you don't understand or feel comfortable with. Find out why the Church holds the position it does."
-- So you know more than Hans Kung ? If no one ever challenged them, you would still believe the earth was flat.
"If you fully understood the issues from the Church's point of view, I'm convinced that 99.9% of the time, you would agree with the Church's position."
-- Wrong. That's code for "agree with me/them or you don't understand". How patronizing. Smart, holy, good people disagree for REALLY GOOD reasons.
"But to challenge them publicly is to invite scandal."
--Who cares. If you had your way, all the pedophiles would still be operating. Are you sure YOU are not a bishop ?
My old Archbishop had affairs with MANY men, and we ALL knew it. They are HYPOCRITES.
"Peter, the first pope, at the head of the Church. He gave Peter and his successors authority to interpret Jesus' message."
--He did NOT. That's what they wrote LATER. Paul started Christianity, James and the Jerusalem Nazareenes were good JEWS. They fought like cats and dogs with Paul, who was trying to start the new religion.
"For 2000 years, that message has not changed."
--Clearly YOU know nothing of church history. It's changed A LOT, and changes all the time. Who told YOU that YOU speak for god ? 😈
Church is a gathering of like minds for those that love and follow Jesus. Those that preach His truth are to read the Bible book by book, scripture by scripture. After said reading is complete for that day, a question and answer session should be practiced so everyone comprehends the scriptures that were discussed. Q & A allows everyone to sharpen their knowledge of Jesus' truth. To teach the Bible cover to cover should take about 4 years with a once/week attendance. If your church isn't doing this, then you are being duped into listening to the logic of man, not the wisdom of Jesus.
Amen.
Simply take a moment to think about the following statement:
"Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"
Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16.
Think about this message. We have a being who, according to the Standard Model of God, embodies love. Yet, if you do not get down on your knees and worship him, you will be physically tortured for all eternity. What sort of love is that?
The utter silliness and contradiction of Jesus' core message should make it obvious to you: God is imaginary.
Oh lets talk about positive things mentioned in the book.. and don't even bring up anything negative said or done by the church in the name of god.. Indeed that makes its advice timeless..
Every religion and holy book in the world has negative advice because it is written BY MAN for the simpleton who does not have enough sense to think them up.. its a f ing book written by 2000 yr old goat herders.. you want to apply their logic to modern day life?
So, I have to ask, how many of these timeless advices have you been following in life?
– Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
– All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
– A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
– They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
– Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
– Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Bah.. there are like way too many dumb things in these "timeless advice" book.. and I am sure you choose to see it in the positive light, however bad it is.. and that is why you are no different from a fundamentalist muslim you oh so love to hate
@HeavenSent
That's how Protestant churches work, not Catholic. Catholicism is top down. Church tells you what to do, you do it. People aren't even supposed to pray directly to go, but through saints who then talk to God on their behalf.
Heaven Sent : "Q & A allows everyone to sharpen their knowledge of Jesus' truth."
And just WHO is providing the answers in these little Q & A endeavors? You'll get nearly as many different interpretations as there are interpreters (preachers).
Bucky Ball, Central Scrutinizer, Snow: I have heard your arguments before. Some I've shared. But, I've taken the time to seek out orthodox Catholic teachers who were more knowledgeable than I on those issues to clarify them. And every time, I've come away understanding and agreeing with or logically accepting the Church's position. A great resource for you would be catholic.com. They have tons of books, DVDs, free audio, a question/answer forum, a radio program, and more with highly knowledgeable, orthodox staff, all of which can help answer your questions and concerns about the Church. Before going any farther on critiquing the Church, be sure you go to the source and find out what the teachings are exactly, and why they are what they are. Don't allow yourselves to take things you hear out of context, particularly from non-Catholic or anti-Catholic sources, and accept them as the truth.
philip hades
"People [Catholics] aren't even supposed to pray directly to go, but through saints who then talk to God on their behalf."
Wrong. Former Catholic here - they do both... the poor deluded folks.
I've listened a bit to EWTN radio – the radio program @taerlin refers to. It's wacky. I never realized – and this is from attending formal catholic education in my youth – that the views of the RCC were so far out there.
Example – evolution is valid. But all humans are descended from one person named Adam and one person named Eve. So, apparently god suspended evolution just for us humans. I also heard one host, when pressed what negative impacts gay marriage would have on him, answer that the negative impact would he would have to pay, through taxes, or marriage benefits. Unfortunately the caller didn't point out that therefore straight marriage negatively impacts him as well.
@taerlin
Nice of you to chime in. Here is the problem. There is no God, so everything else you posted is nust nonsense to me. As much as I would love to go read and listen to bunch of Catholic crap on the internet, I will have to pass. Have a ball though.
philip hades, you wrote "@HeavenSent, That's how Protestant churches work, not Catholic. Catholicism is top down. Church tells you what to do, you do it. People aren't even supposed to pray directly to go, but through saints who then talk to God on their behalf."
Answer: Christians are to pray to Jesus Christ. Not saints. Not Mary, nor the man made assigned popes, bishops, Mother Theresa nor anyone else. Only Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior hears our prayers. He may not give you what you THINK you want, but He will give you what you need. Man knows nothing of His ways. His ways our not our ways.
Amen.
Fools who mock God are written throughout His word (the Bible).
For example ...
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2
Amen.
ThinkForYourself, you are taking the radio hosts comments out of the greater context, maybe on purpose, maybe not. Sometimes it's difficult to condense a extremely complex issue like the LGBT issue, into small soundbites to fit on a radio program. For example, I have no doubt, and if you're honest, I'm sure you'd agree, that the radio guest or host who said that his reason against "gay marriage" was tax related, wasn't his only reason. Dig further. Find more resources. And may I add, not every guest on EWTN radio or TV is going to be perfect at conveying their points. Chalk it up to whatever you want... nervousness, caught off-guard, under-prepared, etc.... EWTN and other programs that intend to provide orthodox Catholic teachings are good places to get started on learning about issues, but they shouldn't be the end of your search.
I know EXACTLY what they are, as I was raised with that crap. I learned all about how nonsensical it was at Harvard. Stop patronizing us. YOU are not the arbiter of wisdom, even though you are full of self-righteousness. You still assume that if one disagees with the church, then they somehow "got it wrong". THAT is circular. Of course Catholics ONLY teach Catholic stuff ? What did you think they were going to teach ? Why are you afraid of honest discussion ? You refute NOT ONE point. You are afraid of OBJECTIVE evidence. Hmm. Have a good evening father. 😈
The only problem is receiving the sacrament of marriage, you gays can receive the other 6 sacraments. Gay marriage is never going to be recognized....but gay catholics are a fact and are recognized. That's the way it is and shall ever be.
Gay marriage is being recognized in several places now.
Nope. It won't always be that way. As a Catholic I can say that you are incorrect. It is already changing, and whether it be in a year or a decade, the Vatican will recognize gay marriage, gay families, and gay members of the church.
@atongenator Only took the church about 500 years to formally admit the Earth goes around the Sun. You'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for the Church to accept gay marriage.
(Seriously you think Ratzinger is gonna OK gay marriage? He's rolling back things wherever he can)
There are parishes in the diocese here, where, if you keep it quiet, the priests WILL marry you and your partner, and have been doing so for 30 years. You don't know what you are talking about. They DO receive the "sacrament" of marriage. And don't tell us that they don't REALLy receive it, unless you tell us where you got your PhD in theology. 😈
atongenator, you wrote "Nope. It won't always be that way. As a Catholic I can say that you are incorrect. It is already changing, and whether it be in a year or a decade, the Vatican will recognize gay marriage, gay families, and gay members of the church."
Answer: True Christians know about the false Catholic Church when reading the Bible (e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8, Matthew 10:26, Matthew 7:7, Matthew 15:13,14, Revelation 12:3, Revelation 17:3, Revelation 17:4 etc. to mention just a few scriptures to comprehend what Jesus says about them).
Amen.
Oh, there you are, HS. You've been avoiding answering my question. Just in case you forgot, here it is again: Are the souls of the Jewish chaplains you praised in heaven now?
One only needs to look at nature to see this is wrong! I'm tired of the LGBT Nazi's trying to shove this lifestyle choice down our throuts!
The fall of Rome is on the way!
"One only needs to look at nature to see this is wrong"
LMAO That's why its found out throughout nature, they"ve document in over 1500 species.
I assume you think it's a choice then. Ok, for the sake of argument let's just say that it is a choice. That means that the entire human race is bis3xual, and every last one of us is attracted to both camps and can switch back and forth on a whim.
So go ahead. Switch your orientation right now and prove that it's a choice.
Scott, someone is shoving something you don't want down your throat? Did you try just saying no?
Its just good all of mankind is not Gay or we would as humans would not be here? Somehow Gay is not the vision that God intended. God intended for procreation and expanding life. Gay does not do that naturally.
@John
YOU are questioning GOD??? He made everyone sir so you better watch your mouth mister.
There it is, the old procreation argument.
Global population is seven billion. Is it such a bad thing that some of us aren't having kids?
Whatsamatter, Scott? Did someone try to make you gay? Did it work? Guess what? It doesn't work the other way, either. If you're gay, you are gay. You can pretend to be straight, but it won't mean you are.
A p r a c t i c i n g gay catholic is an oxymoron. Jesus taught to people to repent for your sins. When you repent, it implies you do your B E S T to stop sinning. When you are practicing the sin, that is opposite of trying to do your best to stop sinning.
Are you wearing cotton blends? If so, you're just as much of a sinner. Repent before its too late!!!!
"When you repent, it implies you do your B E S T to stop sinning. "
No where in your bible does your christ condemn the loving saved gay partnership.
well if god made all of us, then he made us gay so how can the way he made us be sinful? Just because the catholic church wants to continue to control people and tell people how to live, that doesn't mean gay people live sinful lives.
A practicing Catholic is almost an oxymoron anymore.
Marv, Please stop with that "sin" thing! You may "believe" you were born with some sin; I was not! It is preposterous and I condemn those who attempt to put their "their" sin on me or anyone else. Keep your ignorant sin to yourself!
"When you repent, it implies you do your B E S T to stop sinning."
I thought the whole point of Jesus showing up was that our B E S T will never be good enough for Christ or God, hence the need for the scapegoating of Christ.
Face it, you don't measure up... Never have, never will... Because God made us insufficient for the goal that He planned to demand we achieve.
... but He LOVES you.
HAHAHA, you babble again with ""When you repent, it implies you do your B E S T to stop sinning. "
No where in your bible does your christ condemn the loving saved gay partnership."
Answer: He blots them out. No eternity.
Amen.
"Answer: He blots them out. No eternity."
LOL Again no where in the bible does the saved loving partnership of a gay couple get condemned to hell, they will be in heaven. Otherwise you would have surf the your bible study sites and proven that statement wrong. LOL! All the verse you try to use do not apply to the SAVED christian gay person.
HS, where are the Jewish chaplains' souls spending eternity? You still haven't answered. Why is that? Afraid?
A More Secular America = A More Gayer America
More gayer? Apparently more illiterate too.
A happier America does sound nice.
James, I love how people like you seem to blame everything on secularism...of course it's our fault...why not? We invented the gay gene...it has nothing to do with being born that way. You are ignorant and need to do some research on the facts here before sounding stupid!
James,
I am almost speechless but I will try to get this out. How does seperataion of church and state make people gay? What are you basing that incredibly stupid statement on?
TruthPrevails, you babbled "James, I love how people like you seem to blame everything on secularism...of course it's our fault...why not? We invented the gay gene...it has nothing to do with being born that way. You are ignorant and need to do some research on the facts here before sounding stupid!"
Answer: Man invented the excuse of the gay gene. You weren't born that way. You chose to be that way because you focus on the ways of the world, not God. God is in none of your thoughts. Your thoughts are not your own. You've been conditioned by satan’s four Hidden Dynasties to ensure Christians don’t follow Jesus’ truth: Political, Religious, Financial, and Education/Media.
Just because they call you sunny, doesn't make you bright. If you were bright, you would have already figured out how you were duped. By not figuring this out, you're still being duped.
Amen.
I am trying this again it ended up on page 5?
"Man invented the excuse of the gay gene. You weren't born that way. You chose to be that way because you focus on the ways of the world, not God. "
You might want to go to page 5 and read what Erik wrote. You only tell yourself these lies to justify your personal prejudices, nothing more. You are nothing like your christ.
HS, are the souls of the Jewish chaplains in hell or in heaven? Why is it you can't manage an answer?
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son, I've answered you numerous times on this same question you asked over and over again on this subject. Read about Lazarus and the Rich man to find how paradise has a divide.
Amen.
HAHAHA, you keep babbling "I am trying this again it ended up on page 5?
"Man invented the excuse of the gay gene. You weren't born that way. You chose to be that way because you focus on the ways of the world, not God. "
You might want to go to page 5 and read what Erik wrote. You only tell yourself these lies to justify your personal prejudices, nothing more. You are nothing like your christ."
Answer: The folks that write and research this nonsense and tell you man made lies need to collect their paychecks. If you can't figure that truth out, there is no hope for you.
Amen.
"The folks that write and research this nonsense and tell you man made lies need to collect their paychecks. If you can't figure that truth out, there is no hope for you."
The lies that are being told are from people like you who are to lazy to look at the research because it's too hard for you to let go of your prejudice mind and allow love to enter into your heart. You are NOTHING like your christ.