November 8th, 2011
12:22 PM ET
My Take: Why good Catholics are challenging church line on homosexuality
Editor's Note: Patrick Hornbeck is an assistant professor and associate chair for undergraduate studies at Fordham University.
By Patrick Hornbeck , Special to CNN
The Roman Catholic Church has long been a reliable source for one-dimensional storylines: Victims of sexual abuse call for justice. Parishes close as numbers of clergy plummet. Rosary-clad Catholics protest outside abortion clinics.
Perhaps nowhere has the storyline seemed more clear-cut than with regard to the church’s treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and their relationships.
Official Catholic teachings describe gay or lesbian orientation as “an objective disorder” and tell those who love their same-sex partners that they possess a “tendency… toward an intrinsic moral evil.”
Catholic bishops have been public advocates for laws banning same-sex marriage, and some have sought to prevent LGBT Catholics and their allies from fully participating in the Church’s rituals and activities
But neither formal teachings nor bishops’ statements tell the whole story.
A series of recent conferences at American colleges reveals the breadth of Catholic approaches to issues of sexual diversity.
The conferences, part of an effort called More than a Monologue, have happened at two Catholic universities and two non-denominational divinity schools
The events conclusively show that American Catholics are hardly of one mind, nor in lockstep with their bishops, when it comes to same-sex marriage; to rights for LGBT people at home, at work, and in church; or to the ongoing campaign against anti-gay bullying in schools.
At Fordham University in New York, a Catholic school, a proud mother of a grown gay son drew a standing ovation when she told a story about discovering the effect of church teachings on her child.
Here’s that mother, Deb Word, who has founded a group Fortunate Families to help Catholic families with lesbian daughters and gay sons, in her own words:
Fast forward to a family vacation in the Gulf. There were five of us floating—Sean and his wife, Chris, and his dad and me, holding onto each other’s rafts. And I said, ‘I think this is what Heaven is like.’ And Christopher said quietly, “except I won’t be there with you.” “Son, where do you get this stuff?” “Mom, it’s your club. You know the rules.”
And if my cradle Catholic child, growing up in a loving family, got this message, then what does Catholic mean in more conservative homes? … And I wonder, why do I stay in a club that my son says is dangerous to his soul?”
Another panelist at the event described the freedom she feels as a result of living, within the church’s rules, as a celibate lesbian.
A third, a physician in New York City, praised the Catholic tradition for its emphasis on human dignity and social justice, but added: “I am troubled by the fact that I find greater acceptance of myself as a whole person in my professional community as a physician, than I do in the official hierarchy of the church of my family, my childhood, and my life.”
At the same time, he refused to let the church off the hook for the part he accuses it of playing in tacitly condoning the bullying of LGBT youth.
Last month, at Yale University, a Catholic layman who teaches psychiatry spoke movingly of his attempt to offer church leaders the wisdom of his scientific field, and of his bitter disappointment when his offers were met with silence.
And at Connecticut ’s Fairfield University, scholars, clergy, and lay Catholics recently discussed the implications for the church of having many gay and lesbian people, both in and out of the closet, in roles as priests and ministers.
These public events have brought into the light the struggles, compromises and choices about meaning and love that many Catholics experience daily.
Poll numbers show that while many of their bishops have been stepping up their rhetoric on the issue, only one-in-three American Catholics describe opposition to same-sex marriage as “very important.” Seventy percent support legal recognition for same-sex couples.
All of us, Catholic or not, LGBT or not, owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to keep these new conversations going. Let’s not to settle for only part of the story.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Patrick Hornbeck.
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
Next thing you know the two sicko's in the picture will be molesting little boys in a Penn State locker room.
You are getting them confused with Catholic Priests.
And what does being Gay have to do with molesting children? Do you have some kind of study to back up that absurd statement?
There's only one sicko in that picture.
And he looks weird
Study? Are you some kind of idiot? Grown man molesting 10-year-old boy. Hmmmm? Defend that you animal.
Sez Keith the moron. Pedophiles are almost invariably straight. Furthermore, pedophilia is not consensual. Adults can and do consent.
I doubt anyone in her right mind would consent to have much of any dealings, s#xual or otherwise, with you, though.
@keith (with a dot?)
The Catholic se-x abuse cases are a series of convictions, trials and ongoing investigations into allegations of se-x crimes committed by Catholic priests and members of religious orders. These cases began receiving public attention beginning in the mid-1980s. There have been criminal prosecutions of the abusers and civil lawsuits against the church's dioceses and parishes.
Se-xual abuse of minors by priests receives significant media attention in Canada, Ireland, the United States, the United Kingdom, Mexico, Belgium, France, and Germany, while cases have been reported throughout the world.
In addition to cases of abuse, much of the scandal has focused around members of the Catholic hierarchy who did not report abuse allegations to the civil authorities. In many cases they reassigned those accused to other locations where they continued to have contact with minors.
Don't worry. They'll pay off the little boys...just like the priests.
Keith, why are you calling me an animal? Perhaps your pea brain did not properly process my question?
I knew some low-life like you would come running to the h0m0's defense, Tommy boy. Either way, anyone who molests children should be gut-shot.
F.O., Perhaps your pea brain can have your eyes scan my statement and replies and show me exactly where your question is? Get over yourself- I've seen your posts lately- they're not that good.
Keith, my question was: "And what does being Gay have to do with molesting children?"
I don't remember asking you for your opinion on the quality of my posts but (thanks?)
F.O., A. O., or whatever the hell your name is, NAMBLA. Enough said? Moron.
I'm leaving the blog for now, so chickensh!t Tom can throw his sucker punch now.
Hate and stupid are a bad combination.
Run along, Keith. You are so stupid it sits on you like a second skin.
Keith, you sound like THE most UN-Christain person who has ever been here. Stick your missal up your a$$.
"two sicko's in the picture will be molesting little boys"
That is an outright lie. If you knew anything about pedophiles you would know the difference in the definitions. DUH!
You got one thing right, I do hate. I hate evil. H0m0s^xuality is evil. The sick s.o.b. who published this picture of a couple of f^gs kissing in front of a cross is evil. cnn wouldn't dare insult islam or buddists or hindus in such a fashion-the reason is this-they know who the real God is, so they attack Him. Anyone who hurts children is evil and so are all of you sick losers who defend such reprehensible behavior.
It is "God's" will...
I think the strangest part of the bigotry of these people is that there have ALWAYS been Gay people. It is not new. Do these people think that one day someone just said, hey! I feel like being persecuted, I think I will swing the other way and be kicked out of my villlage to starve to death. I mean, W T F?? There are Gays in every country, every religion, every walk of life, every continent, every century. Alway and there always will be. And plenty of Gay Christians, they aren't and the believe as they do relative to their religion.
Funny, if you went through a list of all the people throughout history that these Gay Bashing bigots admire, 20% or so of them were gay. They know people, work with people and probably live with people they don't even know are gay. *sigh*
Sorry for the typos. You get my point. There is a complete lack of rational thought from these Gay Bashing bigots and they hide behind religion as if we can't tell what horrible people they are. They won't even get a sniff of heaven. Bless ya then.
here here... thats is completely true!
Just becasue LBGs have been here since the dawn of time, that doesn;t make it normal. The family unit is the grand design – anything else is just for personal pleasure.
Where's your evidence of that, TC?
Furthermore, what do you think gays who marry have? That's right, dear, they have families.
Where is your proof for making such claims?
That is just such a stupid statement I am going to hyperventalate.
"Just becasue LBGs have been here since the dawn of time, that doesn;t make it normal." How do you figure??
And wasn't your God here at the "Dawn of Time" and didn't he create everything? W T F is wrong with brain? Are you brain damaged? Seriously, it is ok you can tell me.
And do you have ANY facts to back up anything you say? Of course you don't!
Father O'blivion, we are all sinners. When our spirits came to earth in human form being born of woman we immediately became sinners due to our flesh. With that said, staying carnal is the way of the flesh. It's learning, comprehending and applying His spiritual truth to our lives is the issue ... that issue being whether we join Him through eternity or not.
Did you ever stop to think that gay folks have a certain sin of the flesh that they need to overcome to learn His spiritual truth? Daaaaaaaaaaaaa. Too much for you to ponder, I know.
Easy to find G-D. Took me about 3 seconds. Of course you have to extrapolate going backwards, but that doesn't offend my logic personally. Believe what you wish.
"Did you ever stop to think that gay folks have a certain sin of the flesh that they need to overcome to learn His spiritual truth? Daaaaaaaaaaaaa. Too much for you to ponder, I know."
DUH! It's been proven that gays can't voluntarily change who they are and it's to dangerous to try. It's stupid people like you stuck in their personal prejudices that need to look at the true teachings of christ because you are nothing like him.
Yuck what? Did you find your used Bu tt plug?
What does the pope say about this article?
The current pope would probably shoot someone with lightning and tell them that only their hate could make them powerful.
I haven't seen him post on here today but I'm fairly certain he would refer to the Bible on this one which states to have compassion for all and be honest about what is sinful.
Mark, I know I shouldn't like that and be laughing.
But I do and I am.
Yeah. Go jump off the Empire State Building and pray to God that he will save you. Then come tell me how that worked out.
One isn't supposed to test God. He may elect to demonstrate how wonderfully His gravity works.
Why would anyone do that? A least a sane person. Jump to your death and expect God to whip up a miracle? Yes, the person would be insane.
St. Alphonzo and me can whip you up a batch of pancakes if you want sweety. But you have to be good and not be so stupid first. Then I will show you me "sweet" spot!
Shamefulness, how would you know whether someone you are insulting is into parachuting?
Catholicism: Gays not welcome. Pedophiles can apply for work in the rear.
Yeah, that wasn't nice. Neither was the Star Chamber.
Look at the small insert pic of the catholic.
Why do they ALL look like this? Maybe there's a physical human gene or DNA part that makes these people sick minded, and looking real weird?
Regarding gays etc, um didn't we all conclude this about 30 years ago that gays are people too.
Obviously church is still 2000 years in the past. There's no use trying to enlighten them.
gay catholics do have a choice. LEAVE. it's obscene to want to be part of a religion which stands squarely athwart LGBT rights. you didn't choose to be gay. you CAN choose you religion. LEAVE. they need you, not the other way round.
now thats a good post! bravo for saying it like it is.
Still confused about the rights thing are ya....YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS EXCEPT IN YOUR FLAWED MIND....silly boys...
Let me clear it up for you. Everyone has the same rights. Even a total dik like you.
CN – I do agree with your post mostly but the problem is that many LBGs are not atheists and if they were it would be more convenient but those of faith struggle to reconclie their perosnla feelings and beliefs with the Bible. And that's a tough situation to deal with.
It is easy to deal with! Leave these poor people alone!
wow arizona fred... are you saying that gays have no right? cause if you are then you need to die so the world can be a better place!
Sodomite practices are but a social cultural clash against the traditional values of baseline s.e.x practices. Those who parlor their sodomizing to having no choice for what they do are unworthy to be even part and parcel of the human race. For instance, if a person who is a thief is unable to stop stealing and has only to blame their DNA to avoid the punishment of law but cannot, why then should sodomizers be so special?
g-d... you re fuked in the head. i hope you die and all like you who believe as you do...die by internal bleeding in the rectum!
they are born that way, face it. move on, and get the fuk over it... or like i said, die by rectal bleeding!
Report all abusive posts by hippypoet. Get him off these forums.
fred, do you think that telling a person who IS BORN the way they are that because they are the way they are they get to go to hell? thats abusive... and i WILL stand for those that can't or won't! you and people like you are the real problem with this world! its time to change or move away to some island where its only people like you!
Omg u ppl need to taste the words u write befor posting.you haters r sad and weLl be forgiving what is in your heart when u r conceived well be in your heart as u grow and I'm guessing most of u were raised with hate,biotry and self hate.there is very little love in most of these posts.you well die with hate in your hearts I feel for u all.I'm the least perfect person I know and I do the best I can everyday.I don't start my day with hate and I'm sorry for u ppl that do.God doesn't make junk or u wouldn't be here.
That would be a wonderful sentiment if there was a God.
wot R U trying 2 say?
Maybe use English next time.
Kimmy, it is her way of saying she has gay friends.
I would like to see a study on what lengths humans beings will go to in order to make inappropriate behavior seem innocuous.
All you dems waiting for your obama health card, you will soon find yourselves waiting in line at the free clinic with these freaks waiting to get their aids meds....enjoy that leeches....
What? What does that even mean? Republicans aren't Gay? Huh? This blog has lost fidelity.
"you will soon find yourselves waiting in line at the free clinic with these freaks waiting to get their aids meds."
Hey moron your prejudice is showing. By the way they are very close to a cure – it will take 8 more years as it goes through human trials.
Already had the cure for many years, so good luck with your 8 year plan..the idea originaly was to rid the planet of you people, ask ronald reagan's people..meanwhile Ill be paying for my own health insurance, and receiving it at the Mayo clinic, while you wait in line at the Obamaland Free clinic...again good luck with your 8 year plan...;}
You are kind of creepy. Are you a peeping Tom or something? How do you know what poeple are doing that is inappropriate??
I am aware of a couple, no actually three groups, that are FAR closer than 8 years to something seriously significant. It won't be that long. Some really amazing and unique research in progress. 😈
Anywho – the LGBT agenda is always trying to get he messsage out that Christians are now accepting LGBs so apply now and quickly. Bottomline is that love can be given to all and yet everyone can be honest and define behavior that is unacceptable to being a Christian. Science has not PROVEN that LBGs are born that way – it's a choice or a sickness.
"it's a choice or a sickness."
Once again proving your stupiidity about this subject since the APA, AMA and other World Health Organizations have proven otherwise. LMAO!
TC, do you truly believe that its a sickness or choice?
TC, why does it bother ya if yer not doin' it yourself? Are you concerned ya might be a bit gender confused yerself then? Why the bigotry and hatred. That is not God's way. Did some Gay lads break into your house and spread Gay all around and have s ex in front of ya while you were tryin' to watch American's Most Wanted? You are confusing the good Father then.
Ahh the standard athiest/LGBT agenda attack. See how you turn the convo towards me being a bigot becasue I don't condone LBG behavior? Nice try – your attempt fails as usual
No, it was a smashing success.
Well Piper, I'm sure in your small mind it was a success becasue you posted and wrote it so! Well done – it must be true! Again, you are such a mental giant and this is so difficult.
TC, i haven't insulted you at all tonight... you still haven't answered my question... do you truly believe that being gay is a choice or a sickness?
"Well Piper, I'm sure in your small mind it was a success becasue you posted and wrote it so! Well done – it must be true! Again, you are such a mental giant and this is so difficult."
pot meet kettle....kettle meet pot
HP – honestly I think it is a very complex issue surronding biological and environmental factors. I think LBGs want to believe they are born that way and science has provided some things to consider but no PROOF.
first question, why the hell would anyone choose to be gay if it means being outtsted by your family and friends... if it means being beaten up at school?... i know many gay friends... they would have never chosen this life if only to avoid the hate and evils that people of no understanding bring into there lives! second question – why if i can provide evidence that the message from jesus is nothing less then someone elses message and by default means that the belief based off him and his teachings are flawed...would you still completely believe in him as the savior mankind? third question – why do you believe in a religion that claims to be understanding and loving , compassionte and forgiving but yet hates on gays and others of a different faith? i am not trying to be rude or anything mean, i just want to understand.
Why are you so intent on proof that gays are born gay when you can't prove god exists, TC?
If he does, why didn't he give you more than 2 lonely little brain cells?
You can pretend that you've managed to make an argument, you dufus. No one else is fooled.
Bottomline is you have to love all people and treat them with dignity but the family unit is the grand design and everything else is just for pleasure. Everyon ehas gay famiy and friends and I myself treat them with human dignity but I'm not going change how I believe becasue I know them.
Prove it's the "grand design", TC.
you answered none of my questions... what if jesus stole his message from something he heard at the market when he was a kid... perhaps some buddhist teacher was preaching over the gords and he heard them... or perhaps he got sick of his jewish god who is angry and full of jelously towards others who defy him...some heres the zoroasterian belief, there is a good god and he loves everyone and treats everyone good...but there is an enemy of god who is evil and mean. when you look at the historic timeline – these beliefs came long before jesus and therefore using deduction and rational thinking one "should" be able to figure out that jesus was talking about a different god or the jewish god all the sudden had a change of heart and become a god of forgiviness.... please put thouht to this and consider it seriously!
Oh my me sons and daughters, it seems we have some company on the 'ol blog that have time travelled fromt the Dark Ages to the 21st Century. Pravda and hesalive and the rest of you Gay Bashing, nausiating fools, you just keep it up. Try to keep the freedoms you enjoy away from others and when you su cceed? Yes, that's right. YOU will be the ones bending over and taking it the a-ss. You are sickening and I can assure you there is no place in heaven for the likes of you. Normally I throw out a Bless ya, but not to you. You are the very worst sort of people and you won't be gettin' any pancakes.
Wow – you are so witty and clever – not! Did you have anything of value to add? I doubt it.
Gay rights?? NO such thing.....Gay marriage?? NO such thing...sorry but you will have to get BACK in the closet...10% off vasaline, that is the only right you have....sorry
"Gay rights?? NO such thing.....Gay marriage?? NO such thing"
LMAO – 5 states have already legalized gay marriage. As for gay rights all they are missing is marriage in the entire country. It's against the law to discriminate based on sexual orientation.
TC, I asked you a question on another thread, and you never could come up with an answer. Maybe you should look at it.
Not illegal to discriminate where I come from...most see themselves as targets But not you ...youre a BIG "man" right?? More like a scared little freak...have a nice life freakboy...
Piper – do you thkn maybe I never saw your question and that's why it didn;t get answered. If its so important maybe you should ask again.
You saw it. You just couldn't answer it. Go back and look. It's the last post on a recent thread. I asked you to explain and you couldn't, so you ran away like the little coward you are.
Piper – I don;t even know what you are talking about. I didn;t see it. What is your question – becasue you would be asking it, I'm sure it is very simple.
Hey, too bad for you if you're too lazy or chicken to find it and answer it. I knew you couldn't.
What do you bet TC is a virgin?
If he's not, I'll bet s#x with him is incredibly dull.
SAD WORLD WE'RE LIVING IN......WHATS WRONG IS RIGHT..WHAT'S RIGHT IS WRONG..HUMMM..PLEASE PEOPLE LOOK AROUND IN THIS WORLD TODAY..AND YOU CAN TELL SOMETHING IS WRONG.......
You are SO butch!!!
sry, everyone. if you see any more posts from hippypoet then they arent from me. im staying off this thing for the rest of the night stupid imposter. thanks for steeling my handle looser and ruining the chat
A "looser" I think haheehaw would tell you that it is spelled incorrectly
"A "looser" I think haheehaw would tell you that it is spelled incorrectly"
if your me, then you should be able in a moments notice to tell me what christian creed is called? then tell me what the first division in the three Abrahamic religions is? bet ya can't... if you take more time then it takes to type the answer, then you are not me.. i am the real and proper hippypoet!
It's HeavenSent HP. Once she waddles through her own feces and dead cats and has leftover rotting cheese for dinner, she likes to go screw up the blog.
"Man invented the excuse of the gay gene. You weren't born that way. You chose to be that way because you focus on the ways of the world, not God. "
You might want to go to page 5 and read what Erik wrote. You only tell yourself these lies to justify your personal prejudices, nothing more. You are nothing like your christ.
your post doesn't even make sense and spelling errors have nothing to do with intelligence so spare us your immaturity
"your post doesn't even make sense and spelling errors have nothing to do with intelligence so spare us your immaturity"
Poor TC your ego is showing.....LMAO!
We serve a living God – disprove it! Oh, that's righ tyou can't. Atheists have the inability to PROVVE anything. All they can do is point out that others can't prove – wow, that took a lot of smarts. Dumb atheists.
"We serve a living God – disprove it! "
Believe me because I say so is not proof – duh!
Great comeback of intellect heehaw. Again – try to justify something without asking another to prove it. Failed atheist agenda as usual.
That's because atheists have nothing to prove. We don't believe in anything, therefore there is nothing to prove. Believers on the other hand claim that god is real. Therefore, if you wish to push this claim, you need to prove this thing exists. If you can prove it exists, you'll convert everyone on the planet. Wouldn't you like to save some souls for jesus? GET CRACKING.
"Great comeback of intellect heehaw. Again – try to justify something without asking another to prove it. Failed atheist agenda as usual."
LMAO! Typical christian I can't answer you so I'll keep making up more nonsense. By the way you now have a fragmented sentence in the beginning of your post. LOL!
Actually, Jesus didn't die. He rose from the dead and He would love for anyone to come to heaven and live with him, but not on their terms, but his terms. If they don't like his terms, then they don't have to go to heaven and live with him. That probably would be more "h e l l " having people who don't want to believe the Bible and follow Jesus than them actually being separated from Him forever in torment in the lake of fire. At least they can stay separated from him as they are now and not have to worry about bowing down and worshipping, obeying, and following a God with commands that they don't want to follow in the first place. If people want to be "g a y" they should be it and not try to infuse something from the Bible that is not there and if anything it is clearly totally against it.
Thanks for being the grammar police heehaw. Atheists always do the same thing and it is a continuous fail – you predicate your agenda on what another cannot prove – very lame.
I'm not so sure jesus actually existed. I'm open for the possibility, although his claims of divinity would still be of no consequence. If he did exist, his skeleton is most likely buried in an unmarked grave.
"Atheists always do the same thing and it is a continuous fail – you predicate your agenda on what another cannot prove – very lame."
LMAO poor poor baby..... do you need your binky now? Your god doesn't exist the proof is in the trillions of unanswered prayers for the last 2000 years. LOL!
What spelling errors, TC?
Really, you're looking ridiculous.
Tons of prayers get answered, so it works pretty well for believers. I wouldn't think prayers from the faithless work too well though. You and Piper are such mental giants – this is so tough, yeah right.
You haven't provided any proof that a believer's prayers are answered, ding-dong.
You didn't ask me to and you atheist mental giants who purported they do not get answered didn;t provide any evidence they don't get answered. Quit the typical atheist agenda of trying to get others to do your work – laziness.
"You didn't ask me to and you atheist mental giants who purported they do not get answered didn;t provide any evidence they don't get answered. Quit the typical atheist agenda of trying to get others to do your work – laziness."
In other words you have no proof and will continue to deflect it to those that don't believe you that there is a living god. It's funny, if you had the proof you would be singing it from the roof tops but obviously you don't because you aren't.
Chrsitians don't claim to be able ot prove it – it is a personal proof. Atheists assert they have proof and that the proof is that Chrsitians can't prove it – that's not proof.
Of course it is. Prayers aren't answered. You cannot prove they do.
WE have God ;the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said I must go so that the Holy Spirit will come and indewell in the heart of the beleiver. Your body is no longer yours but belongs to Chirst and is the temple of the Holy Spirit. HAHA you are reading the type written words from fingers that belong to God. If you were here I would give you a hug and then you could feel the love of the living God.
Might I suggest you go to a christian group that is filled with the Spirit for a group hug. Where two or more are gathered in my name there I will be said the Lord.
Get real, go get a hug from the living God and tell me what happens next.
so fred, who is going to give the hug being all the people you worhsip are either dead or never existed in the first place – very confusing.
The Holy Spirit actually takes up residence in the believer who gives his life to Christ. That is the Spirit of the living God. A real hug from a living God
My four brothers and I all left the RC church. Our mom hangs on. But since three of us are gay and she is 'friends' with us on facebook, she won't friend any of her fellow parishioners in her small southern town so that they won't find out. So oddly enough it is our mother who now lives in her own closet.
you and your bros chose that path of life. its not your mom's fault. I dont blame her one bit.
Imagine how hard it is for your mom to have 3 gay sons. Any good Catholic parent would feel enormous burden but she loves you all so cut her some slack.
sry, this little pri-ck here has stolen my handle and will now cause havic all over... just bare in mind that i speak normally with an english accent...lol, no really i am much smarter then this fool, its rather sad.
the second post isnt mine. its my stalker accusing me of being an imposter. i cant get away from this child
with all this hijacking of handles – it seems appropriate that its on a gay topic forum
Imagine how hard it is for TC's mom to have an idiot in the family.
jesus was most likely g@y. dude hung out with 12 other dudes, and noone else...you could say mary, but i believe there is some evidence to state that she may have been jesus's fathers daughter. so thats weird huh!
for the benefit of those posting after i go home... here, read and post your thoughts... i am not meaning to be insulting if it comes off that way, i just want others to see a view into the history that predates jesus and "his" message...
The Buddha, born 563 b.c.
Zoroasterianism – creation of religion – 500 b.c.
before jesus came around Abraham's god was mean and anger, jelous and spiteful...but thats not the god jesus preached about...his message was nearly exactly like that of another great preacher – the first Buddha – he spoke about the evils of material wealth and to love one another and to show compassion to all people...Shortly after the Buddha there was a spiritual happening going down in Persia, the Movement was started with a man named Zarathruster – greek translation Zoroaster – the religion that stemed from it...Zoroasterianism, the basic tenets are One great good all powerful god and the evil enemy...no other religion has an enemy of god like Zoroaster did...the first monotheistict religion was Abraham, but the first devil figure was Zoroaster's god...
everything above is factual based on historic events and facts...below is my view on it...
so with the good vs. evil gods and the message of love and compassion jesus had the perfect scam...then he died... oops!
jesus is a thief and a lier. He combined Jewish mysticism and eastern philosphy and then claimed to be the son of god – that takes balls!
this is an argument that states jesus was nothing like that of the modern day image of him! hell the man was most likely black with nappy hair, but all the white folk swear he is white too – didn't god form us in his image or was it the other way around!??!!
source – http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html here under the timeline page it states and elsewhere that Zoroaster may have actually lived even further into the past then i state -around 1400 or 1200 b.c. – and thats before moses !!!!!! i am being cautious with the times and dates so angry believers don't jump down my throat. please don't be insulting, just post your thoughts no matter how mean or angry, just no insults.... i have enough of those today.
oh and heaven sent is a loser who knows nothing about the truth, only what his pedi-priest rammed into him as a child! AND IT WAS A CRAPPY MESSAGE TO SAY THE LEAST, BUT LETS NOT GET CHEEKY... hehe!
Sorry Poet but Jesus came to die not oops I died. Jesus was the lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world and whoever shall beleive in him shall have eternal life. Not to complicated a one liner from God. A free gift from God. Salvation.
Jesus said I must go and when I do the Holy Spirit will indwell in the heart of the beleiver bringing them to all truths. We serve a living God.
lol, oh fred, i think you missed my post and only read the bottom... just sad. here, before we start this, try reading the rest of it. oh and the lamb of god is just a funny thing being they jews use lambs blood to keep them safe during pass-over...hey wasn't jesus a jew – did he use his own blood to do that??? weird idea!
"We serve a living God."
As we all can see hippypoet is weel educated – his answer " whatever" speaks volumes
like you know what your talking about
TC, as much as i despise you, you should at least know that "whatever" post wasn't mine!
"As we all can see hippypoet is weel educated "
Dude get a dictionary.
hippy poets 1 and 2 or maybe even 3 or 4 – quit blaming eachother and quit jacking each others handles – oh but you were born that way – not!
is anyone even going to try to refute my post against jesus baring a false and perhaps even stolen message?
hippy #1 remember tho shalt not steal
hippy #2 remember vengence is mine sayith the Lord
hippy #3 see one and three above
fred, atleast read the post.. it makes perfect sense... and is only a point of view. don't be all god said stuff... tell me your thoughts and feelings on the post... they are more valueble to me then what your god has to say – clearly. or else i would be a believer right...duh!
The Priests are talking?
Jesus died. The worms got him. End of myth.
Time to end the myth of being "Born Gay" too...
"Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice. "
"Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-s-ex marriages.
"Time to end the myth of being "Born Gay" too..."
Being gay is not a choice. I hate to burst any bubbles, but science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.
In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website:
"The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"
But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.
This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.
This is not an issue in dispute. According to modern science: baby, you were born this way.
Prove it's a myth, Pravda.
I can wait.
I believe it is a choice because no guy ever says "i have to kiss another man" or "i will do him" they make the choice to do it. you choose to act on something. its not some involuntary thing like blinking.
again that last post by my handle is not me, i KNOW gay is not a choice nor is a gene that can be "fixed" .... such religious arrogance is rampant!
Come on, Pravdick. It shouldn't take you that long to read, even if you do have to mover your lips while you do so.
"move" not "mover".
sry everyone. an imposter is claiming ive stolen his handle. i am the real hippypoet
mover your lips lol. thats a good one!
Sorry Erik – liberal Norway and medical associations have not produced any PROOF on the subject.
"liberal Norway and medical associations have not produced any PROOF on the subject."
Says your uneducated response. LMAO!
It's more evidence than you've been able to post, dumbazz.
jesus had the perfect scam...then he died... oops!
Did you notice how HS ran away when I asked her about the Jewish chaplains? Maybe TC can answer the question.
Have at it,Einstein.
i'm not sure if you meant that under my post or not but do you want me to answer it.... cause i must admitt to a lack of knowledge on that topic...i am shamed at my lack of but i will study so the next time i can a detailed answer.
Get over yourself Tommie Tom. I only post once in a blue moon for a short period of time. I have no intentions of staying on this site reading non-believers nonsense longer than I need to. Besides, I did post on that issue. I said God Bless these men for teaching God's truth to the troops.
Thanks for proving my assertion, HS. You didn't answer the question. Why is that? You pontificate on everything. You post your nonsense as if it were fact all the time. Why can't you answer that question? Are the souls of those Jewish chaplains in heaven?
Does your blessing them mean you think they were saved, even though they didn't acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah?
If you can't answer, just say so.